Dr. Justin Sledge Explains Psychedelics in The Origins of Mysticism and Religion Esoterica

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00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
01:24 Starting the Conversation with Dr. Sledge
01:55 The History of Yahweh
02:29 Balancing Personal Beliefs and Academic Objectivity
08:40 Dr. Sledge's Journey into Esotericism
12:48 Mysticism and Psychedelics
17:43 Evaluating Mystical Experiences
29:07 Common Beliefs in Mysticism Across Cultures
34:01 The Feeling of Being Under Attack
34:27 The Sensationalism of Media
35:51 The Outrage Algorithm
37:41 The Impact of Social Media on Mental Health
40:32 The Role of AI in Academia
45:12 The Search for Meaning in Modernity
57:42 The Intersection of Mysticism and Philosophy
01:05:57 Final Thoughts and Advice

Transcript

0:29

Hello friends. And this episode, I sit down with Dr. Justin sludge. Dr. Sledge is the host of his YouTube channel. Esoterica. If you're not already subscribed, go over there and subscribe. Dr. Sledge makes this incredible content breaking down, Kabbalah, mysticism hermeticism and all sorts of incredible concepts. In this very easy to understand academic way. So target is one of my favorite YouTube channels and I am a huge fan of Dr Justin's ledge. So it was a real privilege to be able to sit down with him and talk about all sorts of topics, hearing his story, his thoughts on AI, how we can apply mysticism into modern day life. It was just an incredible conversation all around. Share your thoughts in the comments, send Dr. Sledge some love and be sure to subscribe here as well. Additionally to support this channel, you can check out the patriotic for extra content, this content is also available on Spotify, apple, wherever you listen to your podcasts. So go ahead and enjoy follow stay tuned for more incredible upcoming episodes that I'm so excited about. Additionally guys, this podcast is made possible by the men's therapy studio. My private practice. Are you feeling lost or overwhelmed as you try to navigate your place in this world? Well, you're not alone. The men's therapy studio is here for clients. Like you trying to figure out the big questions of career heartbreak and who you want to be. So get in touch with a licensed therapist and enjoy this episode.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:54

Dr. Justin Sledge. I am so excited to have you on this podcast today. I am like actually a fan and to me, um, having on my podcast kind of like indicates to me that I've made it as a podcaster, as funny as that sounds. But, uh, yeah, I'm really excited to have you. First of all, how are you?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 2:09

I'm doing great. Yeah. Thank you. I just got finished, uh, editing a video for the week and, uh, it was a long one. It's like an hour long. So I'm glad to be glad to be kind of done for the week.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 2:21

Yeah, that's awesome. Um, any easier for us?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 2:25

Yeah, it's going to be the second in, um, uh, the series on the history of Yahweh. So it's looking at the emergence of, uh, monotheism that, you know, of course Yahweh began as a God among, among gods. So the question is, how did Yahweh become God? Just, you know, just God. And so it really tracing, uh, from the archeological evidence and from the literary evidence, how do, how did you always become sort of the God of monotheism? And, um, yeah, it should be an interesting, there's a lot going on there. So I think it'll be interesting for people. I

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 2:57

Yeah, I'm excited for that. And actually, like, 1 of the things that I really love about your channel is how you're able to, you know, kind of take your religious beliefs and put them aside and be able to, uh, you know, give this objective historical perspective, like, very academically based. And I feel like a lot of the conversation. Around, uh, this type of topic is so embedded with like biases and, um, you know, it's, it's people's weird beliefs that just come into the picture. And it's like, I really appreciate how you're able to like put those beliefs aside and like, um, you know, give a more academic perspective, at least from my view. And, uh, I'm just wondering, like, how do you, how do you do that? Like, how are you able to compartmentalize and like, um, you know, be able to give this kind of academic take that you do?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 3:43

guess the first thing is that I'm pretty sure that I'm wrong about most things personally. I'm just, just like, I don't have a lot of, uh, I have a lot of reason to believe that I'm right about my religious beliefs or about metaphysical things like God or whatever. I think everyone's very likely to be wrong about that. And so my, my job is to serve a community of people who are interested in sort of where the academic consensus is. Now, I don't know that that's a, that's objective. I don't know that, uh, that that's objectivity. But what it is, is that at least we know that this is where the conversation is. In the academy, we know that that's been vetted through a system of peer review. So we know that they're re they're reading and critiquing each other's work and that in order to publish, they have to deal with those critiques and that there is a shared agreed upon methodology based on evidence and reasonability. And I think with those, those things combined, uh, one gets a pretty fair assessment of sort of where things are, but. You know, is it, you know, I want to make a video about your way or whatever. Uh, does that mean that, uh, that that's where the conversation is going to be forever? Is that the objective correct position about what we, you know, of course not. It just means that that's where the conversation is right now. And with a conversation we'll be in 10 years, we'll probably be somewhere else. So for me, it's less about trying to present some objective take about the end all be all facts of the matter, but more about, um, building a bridge between very high level academic conversations. In general, people who just want to know about this material and getting the general population, um, to a place where they can be part of that conversation and at least read those books and, and, and, and, and converse at some level with where, with where this high level academic conversation is. So, yeah, I try to be as unbiased as I can. And. And. I think that the way that I do that is if you're, if you're passionate about education and you're passionate about the truth, then the one thing that you have to put on the side, if you're really passionate about education and really passionate about the truth, then the one thing that you have to put over there is you. Because you're not the star of the show. The truth is the star of the show. Education is the star of the show. The people you're trying to reach through your educational work, they're the star of the show. And any educator who wants to put themselves as the star of the show, And what I believe in, what I am and my story, you're not really doing education. You're just like me, me, me, me, me. It's like marrying character syndrome at the level of, uh, at the level of education. And so I'm not the star of the show. And in fact, on esoterica, I think very rarely could you get a good glimpse of sort of what I believe.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 6:24

Right.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 6:25

but that's not my job. It's just not my job

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 6:28

And, and I love that. I love the humility. Um, you know, what's coming to mind is, as you, you talk about this, I think about a lot of, um, I guess, religious figures and authorities. And I was in yeshiva for many years, you know, um, studying and, and, uh, for those that don't know, yeshiva is a place where Orthodox Jews will go to study, um, Talmud and Bible and other stuff for many hours a day, like from 7 in the morning to 11 at night. And, uh, Yeah. the entire day. Right. And there's prayers and Talmud study and, uh, you know, other studies as well, like philosophy. But, I think about them and, you know, they, they do teach, I would say from, you know, trying to separate themselves, but there's still like, like meaning to them, they'll purport that they believe in honesty as a value. Like it's important to be honest. I don't think that them considering. The history of like Yahweh and how he became God, like they would never entertain that conversation, you know, like they would never be willing to kind of put their beliefs aside to, to have that conversation. And I think it's interesting because. You know, they'll also believe in honesty as a value. I'm not sure if I have a question with this or it's just like a statement, but I'm wondering

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 7:43

Yeah. And again, we all have our priors, we all have our biases, and they have their things that they're not willing to, to, to shelve. I have those too. Like, I'm, I'm not willing to shelve the scientific method. I'm willing to say there's, there are problems with the scientific method, there's problems with peer review. But I'm not going to give up on those. Those are things that I'm going to kind of, those are kind of the hills I'm going to die on, and those are my priors, and those are kind of the background things upon which I build the edifice of what I do. So. Look, we're all biased. We all have our biases. We all have our priors. We all have our things that are, you know, even unconscious to us. And for me, it's just, um, the most important thing to be honest about is your biases about the things you're not willing to move on. And if they're not willing to move on, the Torah came from, from a sham and it was given to Moshe Rabbeinu, it was given to Moses. And, and then like, that's just what they're not willing to give up on. Fine. Like I, as long as you're willing to be honest about the fact that they're, they're basically nothing is going to disabuse them of that. Um, that's totally fine, but that's a bias they have and everybody's entitled their biases. Cause we all have them. It's just being conscious of them and honest about them. And that's what, that's what, that's all I ask. I don't, I don't, I would never ask that an educator be unbiased. That's simply asking them to be something that human beings are not capable of being. But we should be as conscious of our biases as we can, and we should be as honest about them as we can. And we should check. Check them as much as we can, but that's all we can do.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 9:09

I love that. Um, tell me about the what sparked this, uh, interest and passion and esotericism for you. And, um, you know, you mentioned the academia, the academia, and I'm curious to hear about that as well. Um, how. You know, you eventually went on to, uh, I believe you studied in the university of Amsterdam and esotericism, and I'd just like to hear a bit about that story. Yeah,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 9:30

Yeah, So I think, you know, like, I think a lot of kids, uh, I was really into like weird mysterious shows. I really love shows about like Atlantis and Bigfoot and Ghosts, and I like to watch scary movies and you know, and I used to watch these, the Bermuda Triangle and all that sort of stuff, and I was really fascinated by that kind of stuff because there was a sense in which, uh, there was still something less serious about the world. And I found those mysterious. What happened to Amelia Earhart's plane? Like, that's weird. Like, where did she go? And so, or lost treasure or something like that. Where did the Kings, where did all the stuff from the temple go? Those kinds of things really fascinated me. The Ark of the Covenant. You still love Indiana Jones, still love Indiana Jones. Um, and I think what happens as we get older is that one of two things happen. Either we become a true believer in that stuff and you become kind of a conspiracy theory kind of person, or you become skeptical of that stuff and it may be as fun TV, but you don't really believe in it anymore and you don't really take it that seriously. I kind of did both. I became skeptical, but I didn't lose my interest. And over time, those interests just got deeper and deeper. And then I discovered there was this thing called like the academic study of stuff where you could study stuff using, uh, uh, academic, uh, sorry, academic rigor, that there was a scholarly rigor that could be applied to this. That was far more rigorous than, you know, whatever was on the history channel or whatever. And it, it, I was, you know, studying in the university, I was studying religious studies, uh, studying philosophy. And it just became clearer and clearer to me that there was this whole other world of religion and philosophy, this esoteric world of religion and philosophy that just was not getting studied. And I wasn't learning about it in my, my education. Not because my teachers didn't want to teach it to me. They didn't know it themselves. And, um, yeah, when I finished undergraduate, There was just a thing where I was like, you know what? I've had this thing gnawing at me for like years and years and years. I'm just going to go and actually like, you know, do the damn thing and like get a degree in this. And so I applied to the program at the university of Amsterdam and, um, yeah, I got in and got a little money and I went to Amsterdam and. I started this material and then I came back to the States and did a very boring philosophy, uh, PhD. And, um, and yeah, this material, I kept studying this material even after I finished my degree. And, uh, my brother actually, uh, Jonathan was like, Hey, you need to start a YouTube channel, man. Like this is a place where you can really reach a lot of people. And of course I didn't listen to him as my, my younger brother. And, uh, I just thought YouTube was like a place for like cat videos and stuff. I didn't take it terribly seriously until I started to realize I was watching YouTube. Educational content on YouTube. I was learning about things on YouTube. I was watching Jackson Crawford talk about, you know, Norse language and myth. And I was like, well, you know, maybe I could do this now. Like I'm learning from Dr. Crawford about Thor and Odin and all this. Maybe someone will be interested in me, you know, learning about this, uh, esoteric stuff. And I started the channel in 2020. And, um, It's been, it's been, uh, it's been quite successful. I've been very blessed

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 12:46

it's, it's legitimately one of YouTube. Um, at one point I was just exclusively devouring your material

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 12:55

must make for weird dreams and stuff.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 12:58

Uh, that's interesting. Yeah, we can talk about that, but, um, you know, you have this great, uh, Kabbalah series on, uh, just like intro to Kabbalah. And I, it's like going through the history of Jewish mysticism and it's fascinating. Um, I know that brings me to, to want to ask about, like, the origins of a lot of these, uh, mystical practices. And, you know, I know that there is this fascination with psychedelics now, and, you know, there is, uh, you know, people will take psychedelics and then come to these, like, Massive spiritual realizations. And, um, you know, very much feel in line with a Kabbalah or like they'll suddenly become mystics. And, and, uh, it fascinates me. And I'm curious to know if you have any information on like the origins of these mystical practices, if psychedelics were used, how they might have been used in these practices. Like I know in South America, for example, they use ayahuasca to this day as part of their, their spiritual practice and that's fascinating. But yeah, I wanted to hear your thoughts.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 13:57

It would all depend on where in the world and at what time and things like this. I'm sure there's good evidence that, um, that psychedelic drugs were used in, in shamanic rituals and. Alcohol obviously was a, um, ceremonially used in, in all kinds of, of, uh, rituals. Even, you know, even God, Shem, uh, drinks, what, a six pack of beer a day, uh, in the, you know, a hen of, of beer and some, you know, wine and, you know, even a little bit more on Shabbat. So, um, so even God gets, uh, shickered a little bit. And so Lots of traditions have had relationships to intoxication and managing intoxication and becoming intoxicated or not becoming intoxicated or becoming intoxicated in certain kinds of ways. But when it comes to Kabbalah specifically, we don't have a lot of evidence that there's much in the way of psychedelic drugs at use. Um, We do see some evidence, uh, at least in, you know, Iron Age Israel, where some Yahweh shrines, one Yahweh shrine, the Tell Arad shrine, does have evidence of, of, uh, cannabinoids on the, on the, uh, stone which the incense was burned. And if you do some sort of rough measurements, you kind of get a sense of how large that room was, how sense, how large the Holy of Holies was in there. It is possible. But that was having some psychoactive effect. I think it's totally reasonable to believe that it was, but, um, yeah, you know, when you look at sort of psychedelic use or drug use or alcohol use, the kind of drugs that we would expect to find in Kabbalah, we don't, we don't find a lot of psychedelic mentions of. I don't know, Rebbe Nachman eating mushrooms or anything like that. He probably should have, it probably would have helped him with all the depression he suffered from. Um, Nachman could have used some ketamine therapy. But we do find surprising drugs. For instance, coffee, Uh, is a great example of a drug, caffeine. Uh, there simply was no, Um, the midnight, um, overnight staying up late studying all night, which we're about to do for Shavuos. Um, a lot of that Kabbalistic stuff in the 17th century corresponds very strongly with the first importation of coffee in the first, uh, coffee houses in the Ottoman Empire. And so those guys are sitting up late drinking coffee, you know, talking about spiroot or whatever. Um, and so, um, You know, coffee is one of the drugs that really fueled the rise of Kabbalah, I think much more so than cannabis or, uh, mushrooms or something like that. But that's not to say that they weren't in use in, in, in other, uh, in other, um, in other forms of mysticism, you know, for instance, there's pretty good reason to believe that in some of the Greek mysteries that, uh, some mushrooms were being used, uh, in some form or fashion in alcohol and the LNC and mysteries, but the problem with a lot of this stuff is, is that, um, Often ancient peoples didn't know exactly what caused the chemical effects that they were experiencing. Um, secondly, a lot of these esoteric groups didn't exactly publish what they were doing. They were esoteric. They were keeping secrets. So we don't have a lot of data there. And then also when you think of something like Merkava mysticism, this is a mysticism of, uh, going, down into the chariots, uh, down into the chariot, into the throne room of God, to the Hechelot, the palaces of God. Um, they kind of seem like hallucinatory experiences, but then they seem weirdly consistent in a way that hallucinatory experiences aren't terribly consistent. And also, uh, we do get some, Mentions from like the high gallon of some of the techniques they were using to induce these experiences, like hyperventilating and certain kind of body postures and things like this. So, and we know that there's all kinds of ways of eliciting, um. Uh, strong alterations of consciousness without the use of psychedelic drugs through breathing techniques and physical postures and meditation. So, um, so yeah, I mean, we have some evidence it's very meager, I think, but we also have evidence for other kinds of ways of inducing these kinds of mystical states as well. And so it cuts in two ways for me, this is another way of putting it. There's what I call psychedelic reductivism, which is what, you know, psychedelic reductivism is. Someone had a weird mystical experience in history. It must've been drugs. That's not based on the evidence. Right. Uh, so I don't think immediately once we have someone having a strange mystical experience, it must be drugs. On the other hand, there's been an anti psychedelic bias in academia for, for many generations. That says that authentic religious mystical and philosophical experiences cannot be downstream of a state induced by intoxication. And that's obviously wrong too. It's like stupidly wrong. And. How to combat the two, right? So this is this pendulum that swings. And what's happening now is it's pendulating very strongly in the direction of, uh, anytime something weird happens in history, it must have been DMT. It's just like, no, like we need to be, we need to be judicious about how we evaluate the evidence. And if we have evidence for that, we need to name it. But if we don't have evidence for that, then we should, um, we should be very slow to say, Oh, yes, it was drugs.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 19:24

Yeah, I understand. And I'm, I'm curious, you know, you mentioned the, the Greek mysteries and, um, like, I don't know, I'm, I'm hearing different theories. Um, you know, certain people say, uh, with, with more confidence than others. Like, for instance, there was this, uh, Alexander, the great series that was put out on Netflix. And they mentioned that Alexander, the great great's mother gave him some type of hallucinogenic substance as like part of, um, some type of tradition in order for him to go to Mount Olympus. Um, you know, I don't know if they like what the evidence, I don't think they quoted any real evidence, but, you know, that's, that's what they purported.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 20:00

Yeah, that I don't know. I, I, I think that the truth of the matter is we don't know. We don't know exactly what was going on in, in the, uh, the Kikian or whatever, what they were putting in these, in, in the, in the Elenistian Mysteries is the one that comes to mind. We know the Bakken Mysteries where they were drinking. They were, it's an alcohol, like. And anyone who's been sufficiently intoxicated, which I've spent my time in yeshiva as well, and I know how much intoxication goes on in that environment, uh, you can get up to some strange feelings and experience a lot of weird stuff and do a lot of things that you probably shouldn't do. But the truth of the matter is it's all speculation. We, we, we don't know because the Elenissian mysteries and many mysteries were guarded secrets. And to this day in the Qabbalistic world, a lot of that stuff passed from teacher to student, it's not written down. And so we don't have good evidence about exactly what those practices look like behind the scenes, and what they were and what they weren't. So, scholars have to be, I think, just careful to say, this is how far the evidence takes us, and beyond that is speculation. And scholars should feel free to speculate, but they should name it as such. And so, And that's what separates us in good scholarship from crazy people on the internet is that crazy people in the internet, you can't tell where the crazy starts and scholars just have to let you know, this is where the crazy starts.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 21:18

Fascinating. Um, so I want to ask you about that and I'm curious because there's a lot of craziness surrounding the conversation of esotericism and, um, you know, and I, I guess it's like. Where do you find like the clarity for yourself to like draw the line of like, okay, this is starting to get crazy. This is actually, um, this is more academic, you know, how do you, how do you draw that line for yourself?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 21:40

It's evidence. It's just what I have evidence for. Where, where do I have evidence for something or where, where do I not? And, um, and, and for me, the texts that can be as crazy as they want to be. I mean, the Kabbalah has produced all kinds of bizarre texts. I mean, the Shior Koma or something like that is an absolutely bizarre text, but they're bizarre. From the outside, but from the inside, they have their own inner logic. They make their own sense. They, they follow their own rules. I mean, the Zohar is a very strange text, but it follows its own logic. And so for me, the, the answer is. I follow the evidence the best I can. And when I study a text, I accept its logic. It's not for me to impose an outside logic on it and then declare it to be meaningless or crazy. It's meant to say, no, from the outside, it is strange. Fine. But. The task is not to stay on the outside. The task is to get inside the text, understand it on its own terms, and then present it as sympathetically as you can. Um, because when we understand a text from the inside, according to its own rules, its own logic, its own metaphysics, its own belief system, it's then, I think that we can begin to say, Oh, this is why the text doesn't make sense. It's because it's contradicting itself, something like that. And so you have to really work hard to, to let the text speak on its own terms. And that's what I, that's my task. Uh, it's not for me to present a document and just make fun of it for an hour on my channel. It, my job is by the end of an episode is for you to go, Oh, that does make sense if you see it from their point of view.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 23:22

Yeah, and you do such a great job at that.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 23:25

I appreciate that. I hope I do, because I think that, you know, history and philosophy should be appreciated on their own terms, even if we disagree with them. And I think, in fact, we're only entitled to that disagreement once we really understand them. And most of the time, people just, the people aren't actually disagreeing. They're just saying they disagree because they don't understand. And that's not actually a disagreement. That's just a lack of understanding or a misunderstanding. And so, uh, for me, um, you know, and I very rarely agree with any of this stuff. I, I, I present, I don't, I'm not on board with most of the stuff I present, but it doesn't matter that I'm on board with it or not on board with it. The question is, can I present it sympathetically enough? You know, that, that people can go, Oh, that, that is beautiful. And it is, um, Interesting. And it is worthwhile and it is worth studying. Even if, for instance, like I'm not Catholic, but I present lots of Catholic mystics because I think there is something authentically ingenious about what they're doing. And it doesn't matter that I believe in Jesus or don't believe in Jesus or what matters is they did. And I want to present their belief and their enthusiasm. And there, I think, profound experiences as sympathetically, um, and as rigorously as I can.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 24:39

that's brilliant. And I really want to ask you, you know, to me, a lot of this stuff, um, within Kabbalah or esotericism and even religion in general, you know, a lot of it is is kind of unverifiable. And I'm curious to know, like, what is it that that people. Become so fascinated by and so like gripped by in these, uh, these topics and studies and things like Kabbalah, for example, it's like, um, and it's like, like you said, there is this internal logic to it that people can kind of follow. But I'm curious to know, like, what is, what is this deep fascination and deep yearning that I think a lot of people have for this. For this thing,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 25:21

I think religion in general, the outward practice of it, most people rightly believe there's more to it than that. That there's more depth. I mean, if you're dealing with a God, uh, who's infinite, then there must be an infinite depth to it. And therefore, you know, in the same way, their fractal kind of goes on in forever. Well, there, it must be when you're just told to do something in the Torah, like lay to felon. Well, there must be a there there. Why that? What does that mean? It has to be more than just putting boxes on your arms and head. There must be something there. And that's a totally reasonable thing to ask about and to wonder about. And of course, many people don't, they just put the felon on and they do their davening and they're done for the day. They do their prayers and they're done. Well, there's always going to be people who want to scratch a little deeper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, you get to scratching and the rabbit hole goes on forever because, you know, it's a, it's a, it's an infinite reservoir of meaning. So I think that's part of it.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 26:19

the search for meaning. It's

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 26:22

there is, there must be a deeper meaning. There must be a deeper meaning. It can't be just this. And that's a totally reasonable thing to believe. And they go after, and I think that for many people that, that quest just never ends. They do it their whole, their whole life. And I've never, you know, I've never met a mystic, even mystics who have profound religious experiences and mystical experiences who would say, Oh, I'm done. I'm just like done. They're like, no, there's still more, still deeper to go. The rabbit hole goes on more and more. So I think that's it. Um, also the world's just a weird place. I don't know. And I think this, again, this is, there are many people among us and I'm in that group to some degree. I think there's many people among us that just look at the world and go, this is just a weird place. Why, why are, why do we exist at all? Why is there something rather than nothing? And there are many people who don't ask these questions. They're perfectly content to live in the world and, and go through the world without these questions. And there, I think they're probably better off for them. I believe cohelic, the more questions, the more suffering, like it's better not to even think. But I do think that there are many people for whom the world is strange. And when you see something strange happen, there's a natural desire to. So to get, to get at what's going on there. And so I think that's part of the reason that people are compelled by these sort of esoteric topics that there, there must be some more there, there. It can't just be the, the appearances of things cannot simply be all that there is. There must be something deeper there. And I will say that that impulse, not just does it fire. Mystics and as a terrorists, I'd say that same impulse also fires people in the direction of science, you know, like, you know, there's, I think there's a great comic that I saw once where show someone grabbed something, they electrocuted and it shows two panels below. It's like normal person. It's like, I'm not touching that again. And the scientist, I wonder if that'll happen again, then shows them reaching back for it. And that's, you know, that, that, that impulse, uh, that impulse of like, why did it do that? Um, that's that's a scientific impulse as much as it is a mystical one. And unsurprisingly, we should, we should be unsurprised to find that so many of the great scientists in history were also deeply interested in esotericism. Isaac Newton wrote far more on biblical numerological mysticism than he did on calculus and science. He was far more interested in alchemy than he was in. And, uh, and, and the nature of light. And he thought the nature of light was a relatively simplistic business. What he really wanted to figure out was the exact mystical dimensions of Solomon's new temple. And he wrote a whole book on that, but no one reads. Um, but he, that was, that was really what he was interested in. So, um, so again, the appearances of things are deceived or deceptive. And I think most people know that. And then there are some of us that are like, Oh, Yeah, the appearances of things are deceptive. So what's beneath the appearances? What's the real? What's the ichor? What's really down there? And that, that the, the mystics and the scientists do with all that heavy lifting for us,

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 29:36

So that's incredible. And I'm wondering, have you found any common beliefs, uh, surrounding mysticism from different cultures? You know, are there any universal takeaways that it seems like people believe in?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 29:50

that's a great question for, uh, Zevi Slavin, um, who, who we both know, um, I don't know. I'm skeptical. I mean, this is where I'm very different than for instance, uh, Zevi, who's a colleague and friend of mine who would say, yes, there are core shared. Uh, concerns among the, the mystics. But I would say that there's a huge range of disparate positions. For instance, sure. Like, you know, we look at a diet of a Danta and Parmenides, and they both come to some idea that things are fundamentally one, uh, that there's a, there's an underlying unity to all things. But then you look at things like the Buddha, um, And Heraclitus and they both come to the conclusion that there's no fundamental underlying unity. There's just nothing there. And so, yeah, do mystics from all over the world come to, uh, similar positions? Yes. Do they all come to a unified set of propositions? I would say not. I would say not. And even in cases where For instance, Parmenides comes to mind again. You know, Parmenides gives a deductive argument for why he thinks there's an underlying unity. And then some people just experience that underlying unity and say everything is one. Um, and that's a very different way of, of getting at the same question. So this will be an unpopular position, but I'm skeptical. I think that philosophers and mystics and scientists all over the world come to a wide range of disparate Conclusions for which there is no grand synthesis forthcoming.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 31:22

I love this hot take.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 31:24

Yeah. I mean, it's informed by reading a lot of mystics and things like that. And this is where I'm very different than a perennialists, you know, the perennialists will claim that there is a fund of, you know, all the religions are sort of orbiting around a fundamental esoteric core. Um, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a perennialist. I don't think that that's from my reading. Again, I should say for my reading, I don't, I don't find that to be, uh, convincing. I tend to be much more on the traditionalist side of that equation. Um, which is, which is, again, I think people find sometimes surprising that I tend to be more on the traditionalist side of these things, but I, you know, I love my perennialist folks. I think that, I think that, um, even if I don't agree with them historically or even metaphysically, I do agree that fostering connectivity among the religious to mystical traditions of the world through what we do share, that is a very noble business. That's a very noble exercise. And there's a great deal of shared learning and the building up of mutual respect. In the, what we share between the traditions and, and that project, regardless of what I believe about in the metaphysics or, or the literary truth of that, I think that project's deeply admirable and I enthusiastically support that, that kind of, those kinds of projects,

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 32:49

That's great. And I guess I just want a bit more clarity. Like, what is it that you find admirable about trying to make these connections?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 32:56

agree. That gives us a scaffolding by which to have respectful conversations as to where we disagree. And I think we build up, we can build up relationships of trust and respect. We can build up relationships of mutual admiration for our, our, shared mutual, our shared, um, The places where we agree, and I think that at least gives us a scaffolding about where we can have those conversations, hard conversations about where we disagree. Because if religions are only coming in contact about what they disagree upon, we're going to have real problems, real problems. But I think building relationships about where we agree and then being able to foster, uh, compassion. Understanding and respect around disagreement is actually probably only possible. Um, after building up relationships around what we agree upon. So, um, um, so I think that again, that project to me, that that's an admirable project. Um, again, there's a, there's the other deeper part of me says, yeah, and there's not a lot we actually agree on under the hood. It's actually, uh, so, uh, I'll be the grumpy old guy in the corner being like, but And then, you know, people, other people like, shut up. Like we're trying to build love and kindness and peace. And I, and I hope they shut me up. Uh, frankly, I need to, I need to, you know, um, um, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to be shut up in those, in those circumstances. The cantankerous old academic, you know, I think it's good to be like, be quiet. Uh, I'm comfortable with that.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 34:30

That's so funny. Um, you know, this is a bit off tangent, but I'm curious to maybe hear if you have thoughts on this, you know, I think. Politically, or just just culturally in general. I don't know why this is, but I don't I don't care who you are. I feel like everyone thinks that they're attacked these days. Like, white people think they're under attack. Jewish people think they're under attack. Palestinians think they're under attack. Um, black people, like, everyone feels like there is, like, the world is against us, uh, in some way. And I'm just wondering, like, I think a lot of that is the sensationalism and media that it's just like, you know, fear mongers and pushes that. And that's kind of like the algorithm. But I'm wondering, like, do you have any, any thoughts on that? Like, why do you think people feel like everyone disagrees with them? And he's like, what's what's going on in our culture and society that that people have this feeling?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 35:15

mean, not being an anthropologist, a sociologist, all I could offer is like, I you know, sort of hot takes, I suppose, but, um, Yeah, I think that, um, yeah, there's some sense in which if you're being persecuted, somehow you're right.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 35:33

Mm

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 35:35

You know, it's, it's the easiest way to be right. It's like requires the least amount of work. It requires no work. It just requires you to feel like you're being persecuted. And there's a kind of. Sense in which like victimhood grants entitlement. Um, and, and I, and I, I'm very resistant to, to that kind of stuff. Um, I think that if you're right, it's because you've made good arguments. It's because you make compelling arguments. It's not because you're a victim and it's not because you're an oppressor. Oppressors can be right. And victims can be wrong and victims can be right. And oppressors can be wrong, but because it has nothing to do with that relationship, what what's right and what's right and wrong and what's correct. And what's not has everything to do with. Being able to make compelling arguments about what you're doing and why you're doing it. I also agree with you, there's some, you know, sensationalism and sort of the outrage algorithm that, uh, that benefits that. That the person who screams the loudest is somehow getting the most attention. And I don't find that to be a conducive way of conducting intellectual depth or intellectual growth, uh, growth. And, um, because again, outrage is not informed by, outrage doesn't, it's an emotion. It's not informed. It doesn't have to be informed by anything. So yeah, I think that, um, persecution complexes. Um, just aren't helpful to actually establishing evidence based, data driven, historically informed, logically shaped arguments. And it's, it's, and all of that undergirded by a lot of compassion and a lot of respect for the interlocutors that we have, especially when there's real disagreement. But, aside from that, it's just, it's just like, It's infantile shouting. Um, it's like my kid in the back backseat, just yelling at me. I'm like, you can yell as loud as you want and it doesn't make you right. It just makes you really irritating. I have to deal with you,

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 37:38

I'm wondering though, do you have maybe any insight on how to create these more compassionate voices where people are feeling, um, you know, heard and understood it's like, I'm, I'm a therapist and it's like, I work with clients that feel very much under attack. Um, you know, and I'm just curious, like what, what can be done? And it's so funny cause in the real world, I think at least for me and my perspective, like I haven't had anyone, you know, yell at me or feel like I'm under attack or anything, but like, if I go on social media, then it'll seem like, you know, everyone hates the Jews all of a sudden. And so it's like. Yeah, it's, it's very strange,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 38:08

especially if you're in a Jewish spaces, you know, uh, on social media is part of the reason why I don't have social media, um, cause I find that, um, The data seems to indicate very strongly to me that social media, being on social media has a distinct negative impact on one's mental health. Just, It just, that seems to be what the data indicates. And you know, if I, you know, if someone could ask me like, Hey, can you walk into a room, would you walk into a room that if you knew that you walked into the room, it would negatively impact your mental health, no, one's going to walk into that room because they'd be like, no, why would I walk into a room? That's going to make me sad and angry. Like that doesn't make any sense. And yet we download apps and scroll them all day long that we know make us sad and angry. It just, you know, and it's not our fault at some level. It's it's the fact that giant corporations have hired teams of psychologists to make us make us addicted to these apps. It's it's that's what I worry about.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 39:03

yeah. And that fascinates me and I'm wondering also like, you know, there's a reason people are so addicted to it like it's serving them in some way. And I'm curious also like about AI, and, um, you know, they're also similar dangers there but I'm curious to know, like, do you feel that with AI. Um, you know, the study of esotericism, like, how do you think that AI will impact the study of esotericism? And like, how can we switch using maybe social media from negative to like spread positive things? Maybe like talk about the similarities and bridge gaps and, and such like that.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 39:39

well, I think it's your answer to the question, right? Is that basically social media? It allows us to be connected. In such a way that we pay for that in the currency of sadness and anger and at some level, those dopamine hits are enough to keep us addicted to it. Uh, and all the while, you know, Meta and them and laughing, they're all laughing all the way to the bank. Um, I have two young girls and looking at the data about basically what Instagram does to young girls mental health, uh, Horrifies me and the idea that I'll have two young girls one day on, on that platform that, um, I know will hurt them at some level, uh, it troubles me deeply. Uh, it makes me, it makes me again, see some of the wisdom in the creative community around things like kosher phones. Uh, we should have mental health phones, frankly. Um, and, and, uh, and, you know, and again, like the same way that if, if you were an addict, you know, to gambling, you, you, you shouldn't go into a, into a, uh, into a, uh, casino. Did, uh, if you did action, uh, this is a very harmful addiction that we have social media. Maybe we shouldn't have this stuff on our phones. Um,

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 40:49

That's a genius business idea. Um,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 40:52

mental health phone. I, someone else do it. Um, get the crazy people to do it. They already figured out the kosher phone thing. Uh, it's just a slight modification. Um, you know, I don't know when it comes to AI, I'm very, uh, what's the right word? I think our understanding of what consciousness is, is it very much in its infancy and therefore having conversations about what is constitutive of intelligence in general, it's probably way off. And therefore I'm not super concerned about the threat of general AI and things like that. I do think we will go through a, uh, I think we will go through a phase where. There's going to be a, you know, widespread job loss and, and, and things like that. Cause AI is going to be able to automate a lot of those, a lot of those things. And the same way the loom, uh, basically replaced all the, the the spinners and people like that. So I do think there will be a tectonic shift there among intellectual, among information workers. Um, How is it going to affect academia? I don't know. I think that in an ideal situation, it would have the same impact the calculator had. The calculator didn't replace mathematicians. It simply made mathematicians. Um, who weren't really doing calculations able to do the work they were doing much faster and more efficient. So in my ideal way of thinking of it is that it's going to function a bit like a very complicated calculator, but it's not going to replace academics, but it will, it will aid academics who are really doing solid work. It will aid them in doing that work better. But AI is only as effective as its learning environment. And part of what academics are supposed to do, um, and this is what general intelligence is supposed to do, I suppose, in AI is be able to produce new accurate information. And I don't know that, um, the AI that I've seen so far is not really capable of doing that. Uh, most of

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 42:53

all

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 42:54

new, new, new solid information, new good information. Um, and so, yeah, I haven't seen that yet, but of course, I mean, I'm pretty sure people said, oh yeah, like the computer will never fit. And, you know, on a desk and so, um, so yeah, I think, um, so yeah, and I'm also just not an expert in this stuff. I'm just not an expert in this. Um, but also I'm not a technophobe. I teach, I still teach and I tell my students, you know, like you need to use AI.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 43:26

Yeah.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 43:26

You need to like. Like use it in your papers. I'm encouraging you, but it's a source. Like, just let me know in the footnotes in the same way that you, if you're quoting from a book, you would let me know that you quoted from a book. If you're, if you're using AI as a, as an assisted tool for writing a paper, just let me know where the, where it is. Cause I want to see how it works. Because if we're not, uh, on the forefront of the, of the technological growth, then, then that's a surefire way to make sure you'll be replaced by it.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 43:54

Yeah, absolutely. And, and it blows my mind how much like Chachapiti, for example, knows I was having all out conversations with Chachapiti about Sufism and Veda Vedanta and like all sorts of stuff. And it's interesting because it, to me, it sounded accurate. And then, you know, I know a lot of people complain online that sometimes it could just make stuff up, but it seemed, uh, it seemed pretty incredible that it just knows information about the most like obscure things.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 44:20

Well, it's, I mean, there's a lot of encyclopedias and, and other training data for it to use on, on the internet. So, um, you know, so there's, there's a lot of places where, no, and it's, and yeah, it does, it, it is capable. Um, but, um, again, uh, that's the task of, at least for me, is to really get into a source and, Um, And, um, bring it to light in a way that's never been brought to light before. And I'm sure AI can do that at some point in the future. But at this point, um, when I really tested it, you know, uh, I've tested it for instance, try to write esoteric episodes and I would never release those episodes. In fact, I thought to do it one year as a April fool's joke, uh, just to do, just to read an AI generated script without any changes at all.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 45:05

Uh huh.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 45:06

And to see how many people, uh, it, it, it tricked. Um, I decided not to do that, but, um, at least at this point, I would not trust chat GPT to, especially with sourcing data. It does terrible at that. Uh, it's a, it's pretty good at generating. I would say it generates like C plus papers, B minus papers.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 45:30

Oh, interesting.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 45:31

Uh, undergraduate, uh, undergraduate B minus papers. Um, but that, that's about as good as it is to my, to my mind up to this point.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 45:40

Okay. Interesting. Um, I want to ask you about the practices of mysticism and the occult. And, you know, I think in Western culture, you know, you kind of mentioned that, you know, you kind of mentioned like a lot of the appeal to the occult and esotericism is this search for meaning. Right. And like getting at this deeper layer. And I feel like that very often is lacking in Western culture. And I'm wondering, do you find that there may be some practices or things that can be brought into modern day to, to be used for, you know, finding meaning or mental health, wellbeing and personal growth,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 46:21

I would say they're not, they're not absent in Western culture. I would say that they're, they're, they've been largely lost in modernity. That modernity has had a lot to do with, with suppressing them. Um, but if you look back to the, sort of, the mystics of the Middle Ages, um, so much of what they did was just about slowness, about About meditating, about taking time. Um, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't sort of like there was this trick. There was a hack. We were always looking for this hack. We can do like, if you just do this and you don't have to like, I don't know, vacuum your floor. We always looking for some kind of way of, of hacking the system. But I think so much of. What the, what the mystics did was patiently wait and, and, and, and sort of sit in the stillness and sit in the stillness without anticipate without expectation and into those, um, vacuums of consciousness, there would enter into these profound states of reflection and, and, uh, Excitation and arousal. And, you know, if you look for instance, at most medieval, I'll use the example of Catholic mystics, but I think this is true of Jewish mystics too, um, they spent a lot of their day in silence, they spent a lot of their day. Um, very slowly contemplating very small things and we don't do that anymore. We, we are often desperately afraid of having to be alone with our thoughts and because those thoughts are filled with anxiety and, and, and other kinds of negative things. But the one thing that, or one of the things I noticed about these, many of these mystics is that That's where they were. They spent most of their time in sort of a place of silence and a place of patience and in a place of sort of like, I don't know, active anticipation. And that doesn't have any place in modernity anymore. Um, I mean, look, you can hardly get people to read books. Like even reading is thought of as like too slow, but I mean, think about the glacial pace of being in a monastery. You're up at 3 AM, you know, and. Like things are going very slowly. And I think that that slowness is, I think the thing we could all use. Um, I don't know what's the joke now. Right. That, um, what's, what's the, now the, the greeting that we all exchange. How are you doing? I'm busy. Um, that's a terrible thing to be because I don't see that that busyness actually cashing itself out in productivity. And I certainly don't see it cashing itself out and meaning it might cash itself out in, I made a bunch of money for some millionaire, but And I may have made some of that money too, but I don't, I don't know that any of that cash is out in, in meaning. And I don't even know that cash is out in productivity. And if, if I had some reason to believe that the busyness that we all experience actually made us more productive, then I would be. okay with it, but I don't even see that. I'm not even convinced of that. So yeah, I think that the, one of the many lessons we can take away is we need to be more slow. We need to be more quiet. Um, and we need to take times out to be slow and be quiet every day, whether that's a meditation practice, whether that's, um, you know, whether that's just like lying down, whether that's reading a book or, you Being, you know, in some part of nature that's a bit slower than your environment. Um, I think that's someone we could, we could all take and I think it would, it would serve us.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 50:15

that's such a brilliant point and definitely, I agree with that as a therapist, you know, one of my main focuses is mindfulness and I, you know, sit down there and meditate with my clients. Um, You know, and this is so fascinating. I even know people that TV shows are too slow for them. You know, they need the 10 second clip. Um, and that, Yeah.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 50:36

Take the tick tocks of vacation of everything. Um, yeah. Also, I think that we live in a world where all is very, um, it's very scarce that we've built the world around us to, to make us feel comfortable and being comfortable can be a tomb. You know, you can die of your comfort. Uh, the old situation instead. And I think that cultivating all experiences of all, yeah. Um, is also another way of, of, um, of derailing this, the feeling of insignificance and the feeling of, uh, meaninglessness. Um, you know, the way that I, I, the ways that I cultivate all is, uh, I have a telescope and I, you know, I love to go out in the night sky and there's people who say like, well, don't you look up the telescope and everything you seem so small. I'm like, yeah, I'm small, but I'm the one looking. You know, like it's, you know, and so the sense of all, when I can see the rings of Saturn or a deep sky object, or, you know, something like that, I really get a sense of all, and I love showing other people, you know, the first time they get to see Saturn with their, with their eye for the first time, everyone's always like, Oh my God. Uh, it, it, and it really is. And every time I see it, I, it still inspires some awe and also a microscope. I have a microscope and there's something about, you know, we take for granted that, um, Whatever some percent of our body weight, 4 percent of our body weight or the microorganisms that live on us and in us that we are an ecosystem and that when you can, you know, take a drip of pond water and look at it under the scope and see that it's teeming with life. Uh, it's the opposite of the telescope experience. Now you're the big one and they're the little ones. Um, but to see that the world around you is teeming. Um, with things, um, um, to me, that's a moment of like, oh, wow, like the world is not the way that I experienced that it is actually teeming with life and appreciating that is a, is a nice way of, for me, a way of cultivating all

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 52:33

That's incredible. And like, even as you're describing that, I'm feeling a sense of awe. And it's so interesting because, you know, when you describe looking up in the telescope and people commenting like, Hey, doesn't that make you feel small? It's, it's incredible how, you know, for some people, you know, You know, looking into the microscope, seeing all the, the teaming with life, looking into the planets and seeing like, wow, we're so tiny. And then, you know, people who lack a sense of meaning will often feel like, what's the point of it all? You know, why am I here? And it, it, it almost depresses them. And. You know, and then at the same time, somebody could have the exact same experience looking at these things and have the exact opposite reaction of like, Hey, I am experiencing this. And yes, you know, it's, it's such a small point in the space time continuum, like, literally minuscule. Like, if you take 13 billion years in the past, there'll be 13 billion years in the future, you know, and, and like, just where these relatively tiny beings. But yet get to have this deep sense of the human experience, like the highs and the lows and everything for whatever, for however long we can, like, that is, that is mind blowing, you know, and like the mystery of it all is mind blowing as well,

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 53:38

I agree. I mean, I think that, you know, if, even if you want to take this hardcore existentialist kind of everything's meaningless. Okay, fine. Like, I agree with you. Like, yeah, at some point, 100, you know, 10 to the 100 years from now, the last proton might decay and that will be the end of everything forever. Okay, fine. Like, it doesn't really concern me, but if it all is all meaningless, then the meaningless itself is meaningless. And then at that point, if the meaningless is itself meaninglessness, then we don't have to attach anything to it. We don't have to feel any way about it. We're not compelled to feel bad about it or good about it. Um, all we're, we're left with the task of, I'm here and and maybe it would have been better if I never existed. I love the, you know, the rabbis debate this and, and, You know, uh, he'll show my debate, whether, you know, the angels, of course, they would be better human beings never existed. And ultimately the rabbis even are coming to the agreement and better had we not existed, but they say now that we do exist. The task is to be righteous. Um, We're here. And you can, you know, you can curse the dark, or you can get to doing something about it. And, um, I'm never one of these people that, um, meaninglessness is an excuse for despair. Um, despair is a hermeneutic for finding meaninglessness. It goes the other way. And to me, I don't let meaninglessness get in the way of authenticity, or get in the way of all, or get in the way of a meaningful life. And meaning is not something we're going to find, it's something we're going to build. And I think the idea that you're going to find it out there somewhere, um, is, is a, is a fool's errand. The question of meaninglessness and the question of meaning is a question of what are we going to build today that's going to be meaningful. Cool. And that's going to be a, um, a conscious decision to, to do something as opposed to nothing because it's so easy to do, to do the nothing and to despair over the nothing. And, um, that's a choice. And I'm not going to choose despair.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 55:51

That is, that's brilliant. And that's beautiful. And I love that perspective. And, uh, you know, I haven't heard that perspective before of if mean, if everything is meaningless. Then that meaninglessness is meaningless as well. So like, don't attach the despair to it. Um, I love that perspective and I haven't heard it before. So that's unique. And to me also, what's funny is like, it's, you know, I understand from a perspective of like when somebody is down or depressed, you know, it's easy to look at the world and then. Therefore, and if you believe that it's meaningless, you know, to, to therefore attach despair to it, but it's like, you know, when you're in a good place, you could look at those things and have your mind blown and feel the exact opposite reaction. You know what I mean?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 56:34

yeah. of course. And I think there may be legitimate reasons for despair. I don't think that despair is like, you know, there are a lot of people in the world who have very bad living circumstances now and despair is a personal, a perfectly rational thing to be experiencing. Um, you know, again, we shouldn't, uh, again, there's this weird idea that emotions are to be juxtaposed with, um. with rationality. No, many emotions are totally rational. Um, and many, some of them are not. Um, and, you know, the question is when so many of our needs are met and yet we still feel, uh, a deep sense of meaninglessness now in the world or, or a sense of despair, then the question is like, all right, so what are we doing? What are we doing that is inducing these kinds of experiences? Because clearly something is not Um, and I've been having conversations with people like Zevi and John Verveke and other people, um, about, you know, what does it mean to, to cultivate, uh, meaning in, in, in a world where, um, we're experiencing something of a meaning famine. And I do think that there are ways of turning that ship around. I don't think we're condemned to, um, uh, I don't think that contemporary society and contemporary life, uh, is condemned to meaninglessness. I think that that's, um, I think that we can turn that ship around, but it is going to require work and it's going to require intentionality. And it's going to require doing things that, uh, none of us like doing, like Building community because building community is one of the hardest things human beings can do because we have to deal with the, the only hell that we know exists, which is other people. Uh,

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 58:12

you know, can you take me back maybe to the university or, uh, you know, sometime in your journey studying esotericism that were maybe some pivotal points for you.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 58:26

That's a great question. Uh, one of the most readily comes to mind. Um, I was an autodidact for a lot of years before I ever got to the university. I read a lot on my own and autodidact suffer from, um, being really good at some things and really being really bad at others because we, you know, the autodidact is going to study the things they're interested in and they're not going to study the things that they're not. So you get really good at philosophy and really bad at, I don't know, math or something. So that's why university liberal arts education is very good because it smooths you out a little bit. One of the places where my autodidacticism and philosophy was that I was very interested in medieval philosophy, uh, Thomas Aquinas, Maimonides and Duns Scotus. And often the way that I framed my thinking was through the lens of, of medieval philosophy. And I remember there was a moment where I got to university and I had this very medieval way of thinking. Um, I would have made a very good Catholic probably. And, um, or Maimonidean. Um, And, um, I read Al Ghazali and Al Ghazali wrote a book called the Tahafut al Falsifah, the Incoherence of the Philosophers. And it's a takedown, a systematic takedown of Aristotelian philosophy. I remember when I read it, it horrified me because it was incontrovertibly correct. Like he, he, he had done the, he had done the task. It's a bit like Kant's moment when he had read Hume, I think. Um, um, and. There was a kind of intellectual despair that I had to experience this moment of like, my entire intellectual system has been destroyed by this, this guy, uh, this mystic guy. And it was at that moment that I was like, well, if his way out was mysticism and he found some truth in it, well, he clearly pretty smart. Let me go investigate that angle of things. And so that was a moment where I, Really began to dive into, uh, the intersection of mysticism and philosophy, uh, with the things like the corpus of medicum and, uh, Kabbalistic speculation and, and begin really taking that stuff seriously as, as an intellectual kind of, um, yeah, an intellectual kind of mysticism and taking mysticism intellectually very seriously, but yeah, it was a big, uh, it was a, Yeah, it was a, it was a decisive moment in my own development

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:00:53

This was while you were in university?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:00:55

and undergraduate. Yep. I think maybe a sophomore. Maybe.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:01:00

I'm curious to know if, uh, you found any of these mystical practices, uh, to like work in some sense, or like any magical practices. I know you study magic as well. I'm curious, like, have you found anything that was like, I guess worked or is true? Like, I don't know how to phrase the question.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:01:16

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I certainly had mystical experiences, but what I came away with was that the mystical experiences did not solve the intellectual problems. Um, and the intellectual problems we're going to, we're going to, we're going to require intellectual solutions and, you know, to go back to Al Ghazali, Al Ghazali came to that exact same experience. He was like, Oh yeah, mysticism solved some existential thing. But it didn't solve the intellectual problems. And of course, Al Ghazali went back and wrote huge long books on the, you know, on, on, uh, Islamic science, trying to combine philosophy and religion in the same way, I think Maimonides and many other people did. So, um, Yes, I have, you know, the mystical experiences and I've done psychedelic drugs and all that stuff. But, you know, for me, what came, what I came away with was that while those experiences are very rich, they're not solutions in themselves. They're not intellectual solutions in themselves. And there must be some meeting of those things. There must be some degree of, um, radical, mystical, intuitive knowing, but that has to meet the rubber of the road with rigorous analytic clarity. And, and. No amount of really like logical clarity is a substitution for experience and no amount of experience is going to give you that analytical clarity and it is in that dialectic where truth gets found the truth is, is, is deduced neither through Pure analysis, nor through pure experience, but through some, um, through some living, um, living unity of the two.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:03:04

Fascinating. And you know, I I've had a similar psychedelic experiences, um, that had been profoundly mystical experiences. And to me, they were like, um, It really blew my worldview and I'm curious to know how, you know, maybe for you, you know, I know you mentioned you were in yeshiva as well. Like, did you find there to be a struggle or maybe a contradiction between, you know, what you had been believing in some sense and then having these experiences maybe take you in a different direction or confirm your direction? Like, what was that experience for you?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:03:38

Uh, I mean, when I was in Yeshiva, I was always, uh, you know, I was there sort of as a, uh, a balshuva and, um, a person coming to Orthodoxy, having not grown up Orthodox. And, you know, it was not a great fit. I mean, I was there in like Brooklyn. You know, with a lot of like karate people, you know, some of which believe that, you know, in geo centrism and stuff like that. And I was like, yeah, no, the, the sun does not turn around the earth. Like, you know, it was like, you know, um, and they weren't all like that, but some were, you know, did an aisle evolution. It reminded me a lot of people back in where I grew up in Mississippi who were Christian fundamentalists. I was like, Oh, that's just the same thing on the other team. Um, and so. Uh, it was never a great fit, but, you know, I did want to sit around, you know, you know, she was great. You know, the karate world's great for boys, uh, cause you just, you know, especially intellectual boys who want to sit around studying the Gamara all day. And that's what I wanted to do. So I spent time doing it. That was great. Um, but when I first started experimenting with psychedelics, I will say that, yeah, I had very profound experiences, but you know, philosophy, if you get really rigorously trained in philosophy, um, Part of what's going to happen there is you're going to be. You're in skeptical of your own experiences. Your experiences are not indicators of truth. They're indicators that you had an experience, you know, and I have all kinds of experiences that aren't true. I look at objects far away and they look little. Well, they're not little, but I experienced that constantly. It's because that's an artifact of how site works. Um, and so. You know, or we've all had the phantom cell phone vibration, right? We've all felt our phone vibrate in our pocket and check it. And it didn't have an alert. We experienced hallucinations all the time. I mean, we hallucinate reality constantly. We have to, because our that's how our hardware works. And so just because we have profound hallucinations. We shouldn't mistake those for truths and the connective tissue of experience to truth is the work of doing philosophy and the work of doing science. And so for me, that was never a question of, did I have mystical experiences that blew my mind, both, uh, on psychedelic drugs and, and, and otherwise. Sure. But that was never, you know, it was never in the cards that they were going to be. That I was ever going to be simply be able to deduce from those experiences truths. And I think that's a, for me, I can say, uh, from my philosophical training, I would say that's a, it's a dangerous game because, um, because when we deduce truths merely from our own experience, well, there's a lot of things that can go wrong. And there's a lot of biases. There's a lot of things you can't check. Uh, I think it's a dangerous game. I think it's a quite dangerous intellectually dangerous game. Don't yell from rooftops.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:06:26

Dr. Sledge, I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and doing this with me guys. All of Dr. Sledge's information to connect with him will be in the description. Please check out the esoterica channel. Um, before we go, doctor, um, I just want to ask you if there was one thing that, uh, you would want everyone to know one thing that you could yell from the rooftops for everyone to, to hear and to know what would that be? What would you want them to know? Yeah.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:06:56

Um, Oh, I don't know. This is like the moment where I have to give people advice. And this is like where I'm not, uh, I'm a philosopher and not a rabbi. Thank God. Um, no, I have no idea. I'm not bad at giving advice. Uh, when someone asks you a question, take two deep breaths before you answer it.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:07:25

Okay. Why do you feel like, uh, too depressed to think about it?

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:07:32

because I think that if you take two deep breaths, the odds of you actually thinking about the question are significantly higher than if you don't. And I think that if the, if the world, all of the worlds in all of world history, if we took, if everyone took two deep breaths before they answered a question, any question, what's two plus two, should I bomb those people? Whatever. Uh, I bet a lot less mistakes would have been made because at least those two breaths are like two distinct moments where like, you know, breathing in like calms your nervous system. Get you a little bit closer to center, clarifies things a little bit more. And it just gives your, your limbic system, your, the, the limbic system and like your auto brain, your reptile brain, it gives you just a little bit of clearance above that. So the, the decision that you ultimately come to, and it may be the decision you would have made. Yeah. But I think there's, I think a lot of, a lot of, a lot more truth is grappleable. In those two deep breaths than not.

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:08:47

That's incredible. I love that. You know, thinking before you speak, um, calming down and, you know, taking the time to at least come up with a calm, respectful response. I think that's, that's brilliant advice. Thank you, Dr. Sledge again. I can't wait for part two of this, uh, to have you again on the show.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:09:03

Yeah. I'd love to. Um, thank you for having me on and thank you for a very, uh, a wonderful, thoughtful conversation. And yeah, I'd love to come back on

gabi_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:09:09

of course. Yeah. Take care.

justinn-sledge---esoterica_1_05-30-2024_102112: 1:09:12

YouTube.

1:09:14

All right, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to comment your thoughts down below. What was your favorite topic? Additionally guys, subscribe for more content and to support this channel, you can also check out the Patrion. This conversation has kind of been like a dream come true for my podcast. Dr. Justin's legend somebody that I've admired and being able to sit down with him was incredible. Next week, I have another guest that I'm so excited about. So you don't want to miss that. His name is Trevor Aaronson and he is an investigative journalist. You may know him. As the creator of American ISIS. So be sure to subscribe and tune in for that. That was a incredible conversation as well. So I just love where the direction my podcast is going to be a part of the journey. Be sure you subscribe. You could also check me out on Instagram. And as always, you are capable. Think for yourself, stay curious and to their rebellion.