Inside The Minds of Terrorists with Trevor Aaronson

In this riveting episode of The Gabi Koyenov Podcast, I'm joined by Trevor Aaronson, a distinguished investigative journalist behind American ISIS, Terror Factories, and Pulse: the Untold Story, for an in-depth exploration of the state of journalism and the complexities of modern media landscapes. Trevor shares insights from his work on "American ISIS," a detailed analysis that tracks the genesis and motivations behind American individuals drawn to extremist ideologies.

We delve into the critical role of investigative journalism in today’s society, discussing how media shapes societal views and the pressing issues of transparency and bias. Our conversation expands to cover the pervasive perception of division in America, the impact of foreign disinformation campaigns, and the influence of oligarchs on media narratives. We also examine the nuances of humanizing those labeled as the enemy and political opponents, discussing the broader implications for media and political discourse.

Towards the latter part of our discussion, we focus on understanding the motivations behind extremism, including economic disenfranchisement and the search for community, as illustrated through various personal stories including that of Russell. We discuss the role of charismatic leaders, the allure of conspiracy theories, and the powerful impact of storytelling in religion and political extremism. Trevor leaves us with his final thoughts on the challenges facing journalism and his upcoming projects. This episode offers a profound look at how deep-seated issues within media and journalism influence public perception and societal division, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of media, politics, and society.

Connect with Trevor Aaronson!
Website - https://trevoraaronson.com/
Twitter/ X -   / trevoraaronson 
Audible - https://www.audible.com/author/Trevor...

Connect with Gabi Koyenov!
Patreon -   / gabikoyenovproductions 
Instagram -   / journey_with_gabi  

Transcript

0:29

Hello friends. In this episode, I sit down with Trevor Aaronson. Trevor Aaronson is an investigative journalist and the creator of tear factories. Along with American ISIS and more recently pulse. The untold story, Trevor is an incredible storyteller and is fearless. He is just an incredible person. I'm a fan of his. This conversation was fascinating. We talked all about the state of journalism in today's day and age. In this conversation, we dove deep into American ISIS into this profound psychology of why somebody would do something so crazy. it was just a fascinating conversation all around and I genuinely hope you enjoy it. Trevor is a fascinating person and his links are in the description. Go ahead and send them some love. This podcast is made possible by the men's therapy studio. Are you feeling lost or overwhelmed as you try to navigate your place in this world? Well, you're not alone. The men's therapy studios here for clients like you facing the big questions of career relationships, heartbreak, and who you want to be. We take your challenges seriously in a world that often doesn't. So hop on a free consultation call with a licensed mental health professional. Additionally, this podcast is available anywhere you listen. From YouTube to Spotify, to apple and many more podcasts available. And additional content is available on Patrion. So go check it out. Hope to see you there and subscribe.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:53

Can you tell me about what investigative journalism is?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:58

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I mean, I guess I would say like journalism at, you know, should always be investigative, right? This idea that you are kind of trying to uncover new things or information that otherwise isn't. You know, that powerful people want to keep, you know, hidden for whatever reason, right? But in practical terms, um, you know, the way kind of news cycles often operate is that there are a large portion of employed journalists who are having to do, um, journalism on the fly, right? Reporting the daily news, going to Capitol Hill, you know, their local city hall. And so, you know, that as a result of the time constraints, they aren't often able to do kind of longer form reporting. Reporting and there. They're a whole court cohort of journalists who really like the excitement of that kind of like daily daily grind. Um, and then the work I do. And journalists who kind of do similar work as I do. Um, is that we, we tend to focus on projects for, for months or years, um, with kind of an eye toward trying to do as, as comprehensive, um, a story as we can, not only to just uncover new information, but also to try to make, um, a story as kind of compelling in a narrative sense, um, as well as comprehensive in the reporting sense.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 3:10

Wow. Yeah. So I'd love to break that down and talk about the narrative structuring and like how that works and, um, you know, maybe get into some journalist bias at some point, but like one of the podcasts that you did that like really blew my mind was American ISIS and You know, you can go ahead and describe it, but, um, from my perspective, what it did was it, it really, you know, I think watching the news kind of growing up as a teenager when, when ISIS was, uh, on the rise and, you know, just watching the media and the news, it was just chaos. Nobody knew what ISIS was about, like why anyone would join ISIS, like what is going on? It felt very much like, um, painted as this, uh, Just, just chaotic, like, monolith of an enemy that is, is just totally crazy and, uh, you know, obsessed with Islam and, and in a sense, like, what you did was it, it kind of showed the humanity of the other perspective, not agreeing with them, of course. But like just showing like, this is why somebody would, would go and join ISIS. And it was, it was so fascinating and so many mind blowing concepts that were, that were incredible. So, um, you know, when I had the opportunity to have you on the podcast, like I'm so honored that I'm able to do it, but I want to talk about American ISIS for a bit and, and hear from your perspective what it was about and what happened.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 4:32

Yeah, um, yeah, and thanks so much for your kind words on that, that series. It was an important story for me. Um, so, so the, the, the genesis of it was that I, you know, going back to 2015, I had researched this, um, counterterrorism case in Tampa, Florida, involving this guy named Sammy Osmakosh. And he had a friend named Russell Dennison, and that was kind of wrapped into the larger story. There were all sorts of rumors about Russell. You know, there were some who thought he was working as a government informant and others who thought he was kind of, um, you know, a radicalized, so called jihadi. And I, um, I tried to contact him during that. That period of time when I was reporting on the story. I had an email address that I believed was his and he never got back to me fast forward about three years. I think this was starting in 2018. Um, this was as Isis was starting to collapse. There was a coalition bombing. Um, the Western led coalition was attacking Isis. And, um, I get this message from Russell Denison, you know, seemingly out of nowhere. And that started this, um, this kind of six month, you know, kind of secret communication where he would, um, you know, tell me, send me voice memos about his life. Through WhatsApp. And, you know, I think in hindsight now, I think Russell realized that his time on earth was quite limited and he wanted to tell his story and he saw me as a way of telling that story. And so over the course of 6 months, I asked Russell to tell me his whole life story from growing up the United States and Pennsylvania. You know, going to prison for this low level marijuana charge to then converting to Islam and then finding himself, you know, joining the Islamic State. And I also asked him to tell me, like, what life was like, you know, with ISIS, you know, he talked about how, you know, he had two marriages, eventually a second marriage resulted in two children, and he, you know, kind of tells this, this whole story throughout. And I thought, like, you know, the interest for me was it was a couple of things. I mean, one was that it's, it was just this extraordinary. Access, you know, I mean, one of the challenges I think that Western media had in reporting on ISIS. was that in general, the Western media didn't have access to ISIS. Like there, it was very difficult to get to Syria. It was very difficult to communicate with members of the Islamic state. And so there, there was this kind of vacuum and in that vacuum, a lot of really bad reporting came out. You know, there was a lot of really bad reporting that kind of made. ISIS seemed cartoonish. Um, you know, as, as one example, the New York Times podcast, Caliphate, ended up being based on a fraud, a guy who was claiming that he was with ISIS and wasn't with ISIS. And so there was a lot of like poorly, a lot of poor reporting around ISIS at the time. And then the second interest for me was that I'd always really been interested in the way that conflict and war dehumanizes and how we Um, tend to not think of the enemy as being like us. Um, and you know, this, this goes back centuries even, but I mean, even, you know, if you look, for example, at like World War II propaganda and the, the U S, um, cartoons of the Japanese in particular, right, they look, they look evil and inhuman and, and there are, there's always this kind of easy path to dehumanize. And, and I think, you know, One of my great interests is not to, not to defend the enemy, not to defend ISIS, but is to kind of tell that story from a very human perspective. And, and when we were, when, when I was talking about American ISIS with my colleagues who are producing it with me, you know, one of the, Movies I often referenced was this German movie called Das Boot. And it's about these German submariners during World War II. And you're, you know, the film is like in the submarine with these, with these submariners and, um, eventually they're, they're killed. But the way that it's built up is that you are there with them and you kind of feel that the tension and the fear and the emotional strife, and then they're killed and you, there's this feeling of like loss, like, Oh my God, they're dead. And then there's this jarring feeling. Wait, wait, they're Nazis. Right. And, and I thought like, and I, and I, and I kind of thought of that in some ways in telling Russell's story, which was to say like, look, this guy joined ISIS and, you know, in a sense is very much a terrorist. But what was interesting is that we could reveal, you know, what his life was like, the kind of humanity and, you know, even, even our worst enemies, even, you know, the, the, you know, you know, they are humans too. Right. And they have a story and they have kind of the. Same basic needs that we have and, you know, desires to raise their children. And, and I think a lot of that often gets lost in conflict reporting. And so American ISIS and these kind of six months of recordings, you know, dozens of hours of recordings that, that Russell sent me, you know, allowed me to tell that story and it wasn't so much to say like to excuse ISIS in any way. I mean, I think we make very clear that ISIS was an abortion organization, but it was really meant to kind of. You know, show kind of the other side and, and, you know, our bombs are dropping over there. Who are they dropping on? Um, at the same time, it was also meant, you know, I also think in the Western media, you know, when, when we talked about ISIS propaganda, and it was horrific, right? But we, we often talked about it too much in isolation. So for example, you know, we didn't try to understand why it was that ISIS was making the propaganda it was in order to kind of reflect on maybe things that we are doing wrong as, as a nation or in the West. And so, you know, an example of this was there's this horrific, you know, ISIS propaganda video of this Jordanian pilot who was burned alive and it's awful. And I don't recommend anyone watch it, but the point that ISIS was making. In that video was that our bombs dropping on their cities are essentially burning alive. Their, their citizens and people there in a way that was similar to this execution video. And that doesn't mean that the execution video was right to do. It doesn't mean that 1 harm doesn't make the 2nd right. But at the same time, I think what's often lost in, you know, or was lost in the reporting on Isis at the time was any sort of context, any sort of, like, Yeah. You know, cause and effect that we are dropping these bombs. They are creating this video in response. And, and I think, you know, when we, when we lose that kind of discussion, I think it's really easy to kind of see conflicts escalate and kind of think of, you know, think of us as being righteous. When really like the world is full of gray and wars and conflicts are full of gray. And I think, you know, I mean, part of my interest in, in, you know, the journalism I do is to try to kind of embrace the chaos and the grayness and, and try to kind of explain that story. Rather than kind of see the world in kind of this superhero, good guy versus villain, you know, kind of narrative.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 11:11

that's so brilliant and there's so many different like roads to go down with the with this point um, you know, like one of the things that I feel when you're able to See the other side of the enemy like not not to agree with them But you recognize the humanity and the path that they go down like we recognize that we could just as easily become the enemy You know, I think it's, it's so easy to kind of go down this path of like, oh, evil is, is this craziness, it's this cartoon, it's some other thing that gets created, but like, they're just as human as we are and, and they fall into these beliefs that, that make them do things that we perceive as evil, but to them, they think they're the good guys. And it's like, at what point do we think, do we delude ourselves that we're the good guys when we're in fact doing harm? You know what I mean?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 11:57

Yeah, and I, you know, I would even take this a step further and say that if, you know, you kind of look at the world and the country today and kind of the partisanship and the division, you know, I mean, one of the things that I think has been happening over the last two decades is that we've really kind of turned the war on terror inward, right? Like after 9 11, we said, like, these are bad guys. These are evil doers and we're going they're terrorists and we're enemy combatants and we're gonna we're gonna take them out and and at some point that idea that these people were just like basically evil and we are fighting them gets turned inward a little bit. And I think we're we begin to see our political opponents as. Kind of similar. Similarly, right? Like that, that, you know, for the right, it's the left. They're doing evil. They want to turn this country into something that it isn't for the, for the right. It's the opposite. And I think, you know, I think in some ways, the dehumanization that the world, the war on terror kind of exported essentially got re imported. And so when you look at how. I think the divisions that we have, I think there is like a lack of empathy on, on both sides in a way that I think is kind of, you know, recognizable and how we treated, um, you know, foreign nationals during the war on terror, you know, people in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Middle East at large, you know, I, I think, you know, we're, we're, there was this kind of dehumanizing effect and, and I think, you know, one of the things that I think we didn't appreciate in kind of the early part of the century was that, you know, these, These, these policies that we put in place, torture at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay, these very dehumanizing policies that we used, we export in the war on terror, would come back in some ways. And I think we're kind of grappling with that now. And it's a very vexing problem, you know, this idea that I think Americans sometimes see other Americans as not other Americans, but as somehow like, you know, evil and enemies. And I think that's, that's hugely problematic and destabilizing for the country.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 13:53

Extremely, yeah. I mean, like, you see it all the time, um, with, say, like, people are like, oh, they're infected with awokeism, or on the other side, like, oh, they're just a nationalist or, like, racist, whatever, like, um, and plenty of them are racist, but, like, when you throw those kinds of terms around and, like, just label them as, like, they've been infected with some kind of mental virus, um, you know, on either side. It does dehumanize and it does, like, halt the dialogue. And I'm curious, like, you know, it seems like you go in the direction of embracing grayness and, uh, you know, embracing the complexity and understanding that everything is nuanced and people have perspectives. Like, why do you think that that mindset is not pervasive in our culture? Like, that seems like basic, uh, common sense, human decency. Like, why is that missing?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 14:37

Yeah, that's a good question. I, so I think for one thing, I think it's. It's hard, you know, I think it's easy to kind of fall on these easy narratives of, you know, good guy versus bad guy, you know, uh, I think it's, I think for the last 20 years, Americans have been, have been kind of trained on Marvel narratives, this idea that, you know, there are heroes with white hats and villains with black hats, and the good versus evil is very clearly distinguished, um, and I think, you know, as a result, I think it's very easy to you. You know, tell this, you know, easy story. Like, you know, the, the reason that the, you know, these people are like this is because they're woke, you know, well, what does woke mean? Right. Well, what does enemy combatant mean? Right. And I, and I think we, um, we kind of give these terms as a way of kind of labeling and it just allows us to have these easy explanations and that's a great for sound bites on cable news and social media. Where you're, you know, having to argue things in two sentences and, and unfortunately, I think when you boil things down like that, you end up getting to these very simple narratives that are harmful because it just makes things overly simplistic when, when in reality, you know, things are things in the world are really complicated. Right? And I also think there's this human desire, you know, To not want to accept that the world is as complex and chaotic as it is, right? Like in truth, you know, I could get in my car today and die in a car accident because someone just happened to run a red light and there's no explanation. It's just, the world is chaotic like that and it would be tragic. And, but there's no explanation, right? There's, I can't, there's nothing drives that decision. It's just like this split, this, someone made a mistake and that, that happened. And I think there is this unwillingness. To not unwillingness, there, there's a resistance to want to accept that the world is that chaotic. And so much of, of, of how we live and the world around us is affected by both the chaos and very complex situations where it's not one thing causing another, it's a hundred things causing thousand things that caused this overall, overall effect. And, and I think ultimately, like, that's it's just There's a human desire to want to believe that the world is simpler. And I think, you know, this gets into a larger topic, but I think that's kind of the power of conspiracy theories, right? This idea that, you know, you don't have to believe that the world is hugely complex, you just have to believe that there are these lizard men behind the scene, pulling the levers. And, you know, and unfortunately, like that's, you know, we kind of live in this world where, you know, You know, I think you're dealing with like a large portion of the country that it wants these simple explanations and another part that, you know, is embracing more complex things. And, you know, I think it's just hard to kind of, and then coupled with obviously the media fragmentation, it just makes things, you know, it makes it difficult for, you know, people like me to explain these kind of more complicated stories because a, you know, the media marketplace doesn't really allow for a lot of us and B, you you know, people are busy. And so, you know, you, you know, thankfully, you know, I appreciate this, that, and gave me four hours of your time and listen to an American Isis, but like, there are a lot of people that just don't have that time. And so it's like, you know, I think we are living mostly in a society where the complexities of life are not really. The challenges of that aren't really being met by the current media that we have.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 18:02

So, first of all, I, I, I hear you and I appreciate you appreciating me for listening to American ISIS, but I kind of disagree a little bit where I feel like, you know, so many people are just doom scrolling on Instagram, watching a lot of, uh, nonsensical TV. We all have time where we travel, where we're exercising, doing chores or whatever it is. Like people can, can sit down and listen to a long form podcast. You know, I, I think more people should, I'm not saying what people should do, but I think like, it would be better for more people if they, you know, were able to kind of challenge their thinking and actually think for themselves for the first time, like listen to a different perspective, be okay with complexity, like learn to do that. And when we constantly like shut ourselves off to it, it creates this anxiety where it's like, people don't have a place, you know, and that's, Probably why they turn towards more extremism because it's like, okay, this is this, if I follow this one line, I could feel like I'm a good person. I could feel like I'm doing the right thing. And when you veer from it, it's, it's scary,

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 18:58

Yeah, no, I, I agree in a sense that like, I think one of the things that's been really perplexing for me is, is realizing that, you know, more than ever before you have this, like, wealth of information that you can consume in various ways, right? So, like, I, I try to ride my bike four or five times a week, and I often listen to podcasts. When I'm when I'm doing it. So you're or if your people are vacuuming or doing the dishes there, there's always that opportunity. Um, but I think, you know, I think it seems the way the media is today. It seems to create kind of 2 groups of people and I'm not sure which 1 is larger. 1 that, like, has access to all of this information and embraces it and and learns and like, you know, is very engaged with the material and politics and society at large. And then the other that I think, you know, given the opportunity to. access all of this is, is just choosing not to, or, or choosing to, to access very distilled versions of it, right? Like, you know, the news story that gets percolated through Twitter or Instagram, and it becomes like a couple of sentences and they think they understand it for that reason. And I don't know, I mean, this is like, I guess this is more a question of someone who studies like political communications of like, you know, like, you know, why is it that, that, that is kind of. Turning people, the people are kind of have access to this wealth of information, but then choose not to access it or choose to have it filtered through Instagram influencers. Like, I don't know, you know, and I think that is like, you know, but I do think it's like, you know, to me, it's concerning, you know, I think. Um, at the same time, it's like, you know, sometimes I wonder, you know, am I coming at this from too much of like an ivory tower approach, right? Like I, I'm working on big projects that I think are important and why doesn't society want to listen to them or read them, right? And, and I don't know, you know, it's like, and I think like maybe that's the challenge that we currently have, which is that like, you know, if information is left solely to the marketplace. Will we get good information and, you know, you know, I don't know, you know, I think, you know, there, there certainly there have been, you know, when you see kind of the, the rise of like nonprofit media, for example, I think that's, you know, trying to answer that or solve that problem, given that, like this idea that the market alone won't give us the information we need as a society. And, you know, but I don't know, I mean, I, as a, as a, as someone who, who believes in markets too, I also think there's a possibility that maybe we're in this moment where. You know, the market is going to respond in a way that will then allow, you know, information, you know, good information to reach large portions of Americans and, you know, affect society for the better.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 21:30

absolutely. I mean, I'd hope so, but here's, here's an interesting thought, and this is like getting into the realm of a conspiracy theory, but, um, are you familiar with the office, the TV show?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 21:41

Yeah, I wasn't a big watcher, but I do know of the show, of course. Yeah.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 21:45

Yeah, so, uh, Jim Halpert, like John Krasinski, he started, uh, this YouTube news during COVID called SGN, Some Good News. And it was basically, you know, there was a lot of negativity going around. It was COVID. And, uh, there was a lot of, I guess, like people were feeling very down. So he decided he's gonna, he's going to do good news. So he basically did new segments about like, what are the good things going on in the world? Like people getting married, uh, you know, in private houses, um, you know, Like patients, like people doing nice things for cancer patients. Like, Oh, like just good things, like feel good kind of videos. And, uh, you know, that was his new segment, like, uh, like highlighting the good, long story short, it built it's, it's hugely popular, hugely popular on YouTube. I'm thinking like a couple, I don't remember exactly, but maybe a few million subscribers in like the first few weeks, you know, like enormously popular. And he gets bought out for a lot large sum of money, but then it disappears, you know, so there's like a high demand. There was clearly a high demand for. Positive news, right? For people to see the good in the world, clearly a very high demand, but yet, and it was bought out for like, I don't know exactly, like it was like a very substantially large amount of money and then it just disappeared. Like, why did it disappear? You know what I mean? Very strange.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 23:00

Yeah, I wasn't familiar with the story and I have no idea. I mean, it seems like if this was a channel with like 2 million subscribers, it was, I mean, that's obviously easily monetizable. So it's strange that someone would just put it under like that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 23:13

Yeah. Very weird. I mean, so, uh, Like, and to me, it also seems like I'm thirsty to understand other people's perspectives. I loved American Isis and I know many other people like me, but yet so many people just go to like the Fox, CNN, and, or like other polarizing networks as like, why isn't there a large network that focuses on complexity? I don't get it. You know what I mean? Like, like, yeah,

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 23:34

I mean, you know, I think like, I mean, this isn't an original idea. I mean, a lot of people have written about this. I mean, I think one of the things that, uh, you know, Fox News and, and MSNBC are really good at, and this was really pioneered by Fox News and then kind of copied by And even to a lesser extent now by CNN, which is just like the point of, you know, the point of keeping you engaged and they want you to watch and watch and watch so that you watch more commercials and they make more money. But the, there, you know, the, the way that they do that for as little money as possible is just to enrage you, right. Just to make you mad. So you keep like, you know, I guess it's not maybe that different from doom scrolling, right? Like you're just kind of like watching this and getting, you know, More and more mad. I mean, I think like, I mean, one of the amazing things to me is like, if you watch Fox news or MSNBC. There's really just only like one story they talk about the whole day. Right? Like it's, you know, and, and they, so they could, you could explain that story with nuance in about 15 minutes. Right? And usually that story was the New York Times that morning. And so they're just like, commenting on whatever they read. And yet the, the programming style is just to kind of keep you. Keep you enraged. And, um, you know, I don't know. I mean, you know, as a as a student of the mind, I imagine you have a better explanation than I do. But like, obviously, there must be something. That like allow, you know, there's there's obviously something captivating and keeping people angry, right. And Matt, and that's how they keep them engaged. And for, you know, for whatever reason that works very well in the market. Right. Because if you look at like the way cable news is set up, I mean, it's not really news in the traditional sense. Right. It's like, it's often just commentary and, you know, for people, you know, people like me who go out and spend like six months, a year on a project. You know, that's very expensive. But it's not very expensive to just like have a bunch of like, you know, celebrity talking heads, you know, riffing off of what was in the New York Times that, that morning in order to make their viewership mad. And, you know, so to me, like, I feel, um, you know, I have trouble explaining it because I watch, when I watch shows. I'm like, I don't know. How does anybody watch this? But they have a large portion, right of viewers. That said, though, you know, I do think it's important to recognize that. I think that, you know, the max viewership of Fox News is about 1 percent of the U. S. Population. Um, and so on the whole, it's not an enormous audience, but 1 percent of the population, but for whatever reason, it does have a very kind of enormous kind of cascading effect in our culture and in our information ecosystem, you know, and why it is that, you know, that 1 percent of America mostly doesn't read or consume news beyond that cable news organization is is really incredible to me. But yeah, I mean, I think like, and I also think, you know, I think Americans have begun to consume To confuse news with commentary and bullshit really. Right. Just because Fox news says it's Fox news. It's not really news, but I think in the, in the society, you know, that's what people, um, you know, that, that's what people think. And, you know, and I, I, I have to experience this as a journalist when, you know, I explained I'm a journalist, you know, I'll get like, Oh, like, you know, Joe Scarborough or, you know, Fox news. And it's like, you know, all respect to what they do, but that's not what I do. But, you know, and, and so it's, it's, it's very hard because I think, you know, a lot of Americans, I think, think of news and journalism only in that sense. And when you think of. You know, the bad reputation that journalism currently has and the attacks that it's going through, a lot of which I find absolutely unfair. Um, but I think a part of it is that, like, many Americans just associate news with, like, the talking heads on cable news. And unfortunately, you know, the the journalism that I really value, like, that's not being done in those quarters.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 27:31

Fascinating. I mean, and let's, let's talk about journalist bias, because you also mentioned, um, how, you know, when you were creating a story that there is a narrative there, and it's like, there are certain things that just, you know, Like, where do you draw the line between opinion and fact, and like, nothing is, is, like, any reporting by a human is not completely objective, like, we obviously leave things out because we feel like they're not important, but like, at what point does this cross the line to like, this is clearly biased, you know what I mean?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 28:00

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, you know, kind of the quick history of this is that like early in the 20th century or in the mid to late 20th century, there was really among daily newspapers. There was really this idea of objectivity that you were going to go out into the community and you were going to report it straight. You know, none of your biases would, would play a role. And then if you read the story, you You know, it's true. It's mostly true, right? They would quote someone on this side of the issue and someone on that side of the issue and then let the reader decide, right? But the truth is that there's there's always bias and and this idea of this idea of objectivity was absolutely false because someone that would go out and report that story that seems biased. Well, maybe they're hiding there. I'm sorry. That seems unbiased. Maybe they're hiding their bias by the fact that the guy they disagree with. They used a quote. That. Wasn't particularly good. Whereas the other guy got the great quote. And how do you, how do you prove that? Right. And like that, that kind of implicit bias was always happening. And so this idea of false objectivity was absolutely true. And I, and I think what you begin to see in journalism in, you know, you see this kind of in the mid 20th century with the so called new journalism movement with the magazine style reporting. But I think you see that kind of more now than ever, which is that like, there's really this rejection. Yeah. Of false objectivity and an embrace of transparency. And so that's how I view my work. Like, I'm not, I, I'm the storyteller. So there's no way that I can just blank slate. Like, I don't believe in anything and tell the story. Like, that's, that's just not real realistic. Um, so, so the, the, the way that I think journalists have to handle that is, Is to be transparent and you're transparent in your sourcing. You're saying this is where I got this information. This is how I know it's true or accurate. And then at the same time, when you're analyzing the information coming to some sort of conclusion, where perhaps a bias. would play a role. I think it's important to be transparent with a reader or listener in, in that position that you're, that you're coming from. And so ultimately the reader or the listener or the viewer can look at this journalism and, and say like, okay, well, the facts that he uses, I can substantiate, I can go online, I can find those facts myself. And he's coming up with a different conclusion. I understand the conclusion he's coming to, Given the position he's reporting from, I just happen to disagree with that. And I think that's, that's fine. Um, I, I think, you know, I think, you know, as much as journalism can be transparent in the storytelling, in, in the, in the, the sourcing of the facts, I think that's, that's, that's where we should be. Um, I think more often there is like an attack on that premise from really, um, uh, people operating in a very intellectually dishonest. Uh, to say that, like, oh, the media is just biased and, and, you know, they're kind of like working with the deep state or George Soros or whatever. Right. And like, none of that is true for journalists who are, you know, working on projects like I am. Um, and so, you know, and I think at the same time, the ones that are, you know, You know, often kind of decrying that most are the ones who are kind of, you know, committing the most journalistic malpractice right like I think more often than not, you hear that coming from like Fox News and Breitbart and these other organizations whose journalistic standards. I find quite low. And, and, and what's, what also happens, I think, is that the more transparent a news organization is, the more it is opening itself to these kind of very dishonest attacks. So as an example, you know, the New York Times, not a perfect news organization, no organization is, but it does take very seriously, um, corrections to the record. So they run corrections. If they get something wrong, they run a correction. And what you'll often see is like, you know, these very. You know, animated attacks from right wing media saying, look, the New York Times got it all wrong. This is, this is, this is a bogus article. When in reality, those organizations attacking the New York Times never run corrections. You know, they often have stories that are like wholly incorrect and they just never run them. And so, you know, I think what happened, we live in this kind of strange moment where I think, The more transparent and the more kind of, you know, I would say the, the, the more, the more transparent and, and, and the, the kind of more serious the publication, the more it opens itself up to these really kind of like intellectually dishonest and politically motivated attacks as if the media is all biased. And I think that's, you know, and so I think we are in this moment where I think journalism needs to be. You know, there is this false objectivity, you know, there is going to be a, you know, you know, going back to the earliest days of the republic, there have been, you know, newspapers that were writing from political from specific political slants. And I think, you know, that's okay. But I think, you know, I think where You know, we should, we just need to be more transparent in the kind of slant we're coming from at the same time, though. I think, you know, we are also in this position where I think there are certain quarters of the media that take very responsibly. What is a fact? What is the sourcing of this? You know, can we consider this, you know, a credible piece of information and then there are other quarters of the media that will just kind of propagate all sorts of misinformation in order to put forward whatever political agenda they want. And I think, you know, right now, this kind of mess of media we're in, you know, really requires Americans to have a high level of. Media literacy and kind of be able to kind of understand the diet of information they're consuming. Um, and I think for a lot of Americans, they're just not really up to that challenge and that creates, you know, a lot of misinformation and disinformation in the society at large.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 33:38

That's so fascinating. That's so fascinating. And I mean, what's so interesting is like, there is a lot of misinformation, disinformation in what's reported, what's not reported coming from this supposedly unbiased lens. Of these outlets that are clearly biased, you know, um, and I think about it and I'm like, you know, whatever it's like going back a little bit. So what we were saying, I think people feel and I don't like the only reason I feel this is because of the, the YouTube and the media that I watch and everyone is kind of living in an echo chamber. So maybe it's my own fault for, like, kind of falling into this clickbait, but I feel like people feel like. America is more divided than ever in like political issues, let's say. And the fact of reality is, I think when I go outside and I talk to people, most people just don't care that much, you know what I mean? Like most people are just going about their lives, trying to do what they're doing. Like they don't, you know, they just don't care, you know? And, uh, I'm curious to know what you, what you think about that. Like the difference, if you agree with that perception, uh, that America is feeling divided. And, uh, if you think that. It's not actually reflective of reality, but for some reason we think it.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 34:49

I think it, I think this idea that we are so divided really gets magnified, right? Because I think, I think the people who are the most divided, like the on the, you know, if you're looking at this, and this is an imperfect picture, Metaphor, obviously, but if you're looking at, you know, political ideology as being a, you know, a range, you know, the, the people on the far ends of it, um, are kind of the loudest and they're the most divided. And so we tend to think, okay, well, like, we're, we're very divided. I also think, you know, the way that media has been fragmented. Really creates a marketplace for that kind of narrative that like, oh, you know, you're part of our tribe. They're part of that tribe. We're at war. And, you know, that that increases engagement that, you know, that that's something that plays well in in algorithms. And so I think, you know, I think this idea that we are as divided as we are really. Um, is accentuated by the fact that like the divided ones are the loudest. They're also, you know, I think, you know, if you look, if you're kind of, since there's a presidential election coming up, you know, I think the people that are like hardcore Biden supporters and people are hardcore Trump supporters and that, that kind of so called base is, is really kind of the loudest, but there is this whole portion of the middle in the middle that I don't think feels as divided, you know, I think. At least I hope, you know, I mean, I can say like, you know, I have a eight year old daughter and I think one of the blessings of having a kid is that you are often forced to have relationships with people that you might not otherwise, that it kind of breaks you out of your filter bubble in the sense that like my, my daughter's. Friends have parents who come from very different perspectives than my wife and I, and we're friends because our kids are friends. And so, you know, it allows us to like, have these relationships that we might not otherwise have, which I think is very good because it breaks us out of these kind of bubbles. And what you begin to realize, at least in a small anecdote, and I know this is one of those like stories of like, let me tell you about the life, the world through my five friends. Right. But at the same time, I think like what, uh, what, what it's, what it's shown me is, you know, that. You know, they're, they're, you know, we are kind of politically different, you know, my, my kids, parents, friends, we're socially different. We come from different backgrounds, but like, you know, ultimately, like, we like each other, you know, we were kind of together in this idea that we want our children to inherit a world that is better than the one we had. Um, and, and we just want a good life for them. And so there is this kind of commonality that I think. Is often missing when you talk about that divide and, you know, and that even gets back to like what we were talking about earlier in this idea of like humanizing the enemy, you know, like, you know, the, the, you know, I, I've, you know, I'm not going to be voting for Trump, for example, right. But some of my kids, parents, friends, or my, my, my, excuse me, my, my kids, friends, parents will be,

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 37:33

Well, you're not voting for the Messiah.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 37:34

them, what's that?

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 37:36

You're not voting for the

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 37:37

I'm not voting for the Messiah. Yeah, but, but they, but they, they, they, I think. Maybe, right? And it doesn't make them evil, you know, I, I think like, you know, and I, and, and I think that's like, I think that's part of like the, what's missing here is I think, you know, I think the political rhetoric has, has made it so divided, you know, that I think we tend to kind of, like, as we were speaking about earlier, we're like dehumanizing our political opponents in the same way. that we would dehumanize, uh, you know, ISIS fighters and people that we were at war with. And I think that's really the kind of the troubling aspect of this. And I, you know, I mean, there's a much larger portion, a much larger, this is a much more complicated issue in a sense, but I do think that this idea that we are kind of corralling into these bubbles where we're not meeting people. Who have differing beliefs than we do, I think makes us feel like we are so divided, but also then really limits our ability to understand that the people that we disagree with are not necessarily enemies, right? Are not necessarily people who, um, have dastardly, you know, motives. And I think that's part of, you know, I think that's part of the breakdown of the political public life in, in America right now is that we. You know, we don't realize that, you know, or we, we don't kind of frame these things as being like political disagreements. We frame them as being, you know, and as an example, like, you know, I remember, uh, a friend of mine was telling me this story, you know, where, you know, he was an admirer of, of kind of the older style of, you know, governance. And one of the things he'd mentioned was the story of how air travel and the development of air travel really kind of hindered. Bipartisanship in, in, in America and, and his explanation for that, which I thought was compelling was this idea that, you know, if you were a Republican congressman from Kansas, and you were, uh, maybe a Democrat from New York, you had to live in Washington during the session. It was difficult to fly back and forth. And so you had children with you and your children played baseball or soccer together and you were friends. And so even though you were politically. different, you knew each other as people. And, and you, so there was this idea that you were opposed politically, but you recognize the humanity in one another and you could find ways to compromise. And you could recognize that even though you might differ politically, you are in a position where what you want is the betterment of this nation, the betterment of this world for your children and the next generation. And so, but it wasn't like, It is now, which is just like the other side is evil and they want to destroy this country. And, and I think that kind of rhetoric really gets us nowhere. Um, but that's where we're really kind of where we are on in kind of a, in a sense, because I think we are, we focus so much on the kind of polls and the division, um, in this country.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 40:22

absolutely. And I mean, getting back into the realm of conspiracy, you know, I remember I was very young, uh, I think I was in eighth grade when Obama started running for president. And the amount of rumors about him, I remember hearing from people that I like know within my community about like, he's radical Muslim. And, uh, you know, people were even saying crazier things, like he's a demon or like some crazy stuff, you know? Um, and like, people really believed it, you know, these are like adults around me that, that like really believe this craziness to dehumanize somebody that they disagreed with politically. And, um, I don't know if that's when it started, but that's definitely like when I first became aware of it. And, um, And I think what's interesting, this is very interesting. This is a bit of a tangent, but I'll, I'll come back. I heard this example recently where in Israel, when the English were kind of ruling over that, that province, they pinned. The Arabs against the Jews and cause them to fight against each other. They, they like did this by like, you know, saying some stuff to the Arabs, then they said some stuff to the Jews and they were trying to like pin them against each other and it was successful and it worked, but eventually like the Jews came on top and got rid of the British. And you know, the whole motive for why the English did that was because they understood that if they can get the Jews and the Arabs to fight against each other, then they're going to, uh, you know, they're going to fight against each other and not come at them. Right. Like that was the whole idea. And I don't know if this is accurate, but this is, this is what I heard. And I think at the end of the day, right? Like there is this political fighting going on, you know, between these, these two sides, like people, whatever they feel on the right, what they feel on the left. And I think it's, it's keeping people distracted, you know, at best, it's some kind of glitch in the market where it's like, um, It's a type of glitch of the market where it's like, okay, this is what sells, you know, we get people angry. We get people to dehumanize the other side, become these like cartoonish inline characters where they're not thinking about nuance. So, you know, it gets them angry. So they keep coming back to the news, right? So this is kind of like color war. So at best, it's kind of like just this, this glitch in the market that it just works out that way. Um, but, you know, at worst it's, it's motivated in some sense. Like there's, for whatever reason, people, there are actors that want us to feel politically divided. And, you know, even if it's not intentional, there are definitely people benefiting from this. Um, And I'm curious to know your thoughts, and I know like, there's been talk of how Russia has been, uh, you know, trying to divide us publicly, like, I think I remember, I don't remember where I heard this from, but, but there was some, like, famous, not famous, but like a big Twitter influencer that turned out to be like a Russian bot, that was like a pro Trump Russian, not bot per se, but like, uh, an actor. Um, I don't know if you have any familiarity with that.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 43:17

Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, the concept, I mean, I think it goes back to the, the divide and conquer saying, right, it goes back to the Romans and, you know, this has always been a very, you know, effective strategy in, in war and politics. And, and I think, you know, we certainly see that. to a certain extent here. I mean, I think, you know, when I look at it, I, I, I, uh, you kind of, especially when you look at like the culture war issues, right. And like the rights obsession with, um, you know, trans rights as one example. Um, I think there is to me a very clear motivation for why the Republican party and conservatives would be pushing that, right. Really what they want. Is they want large scale tax cuts for the wealthy and the corporations that are their donor, but their base of voters doesn't really make a lot of money. So they're not going to really be able to animate their votes by saying, Hey, we're going to give these huge tax breaks to these oligarchs, but they can animate them by saying like, look at the trans people, right there, you know, and I think, you know, we, they are using these culture wars and really kind of like. Feeding off of xenophobia that is already existing in our society to to really kind of animate this base. And I think that's hugely destructive, right? It may get the votes for these finance fiscal positions that that are that are wholly unpopular among the American electorate, but they're doing so at the expense of really kind of dehumanizing portions of America. And in this, in this case, you know, trans Americans. And I think I see that very much as dividing and conquering, right? You are, you are kind of dividing. Right. The country along this kind of arbitrary, mostly arbitrary line that, you know, this issue that affects a very small minority of Americans and you're, you're then using it to distract against your real goals, which are these, like, large scale tax cuts that are, that are very unpopular and that, you know, and certainly, you know, Democrats and others use some similar strategies and I, and I think that's kind of part of what's what's happening. I also think, you know, the issue of like Russian disinformation. Yeah. It's like, it's very controversial, right? Cause I think, you know, I think part of the reason is that like, you know, the 20, the Trump 2016 campaigns. You know, cooperation with Russian intelligence agents was really well established in the Mueller report. Right. I think there, there would have been even greater cooperation between the Trump campaign and Russians had the Trump campaign not been as wholly incompetent as it was. Right. And I think that's well established in the Mueller report. Right. But then the problem, of course, became that so much of that information and so much of that truth is really distracted by the fact that the media covered the issue. really poorly, and we got obsessed with false information like the PP, the P tape and, you know, other stuff that just wasn't, you know, as far as we know, true, and that the level of cooperation that, you know, Trump was some kind of Manchurian candidate, like, or Manchurian candidate, like, none of that was true, obviously, but the larger truth got, got lost. And so, but I, but I do think as a result of kind of the pushback of the poor, coverage of, you know, so called Russiagate, there has been this, like, unwillingness for us to really look at, like, how foreign intelligence operations. are using our open society against us to divide us. And, and, you know, and there, there have been numerous studies and examples like you cite of, of kind of, you know, foreign intelligence operations, whether it's Russia, China, Iran, or others, you know, using, you know, kind of the division against us. And, and I think that's, you know, I think that's kind of something that is a really vexing problem because it's like, how do you maintain An open society like we have and, you know, at the same time curb that kind of behavior, right? Because in a, in a, in a sense, like, these authoritarian governments are using what's great about us, our openness against us, right? Because we are then vulnerable to these kinds of misinformation and disinformation attacks. And, and I, I don't really know the, the, the way, you know, how we kind of like get around this other than kind of like. looking at, you know, expanding kind of media literacy in this country. But then the problem is that that's very kind of becomes very politically fraught. I also think, you know, I also think, you know, political parties have been willing to flirt with misinformation and disinformation in ways that are quite irresponsible and destructive, not just the Republicans, the Democrats as well. And, and I think, you know, the, the, the challenge has been like, How do you, how do you kind of deal with this at the same time? I think, you know, we're also living in a, in an age of like oligarchy owned media, right? Like Elon Musk owns Twitter X, you know, Jeff Bezos owns the Washington post, and it is really naive to assume that none of these billionaires. Own media for reasons other than their own, right? Like they, they have reasons for owning media, right? Maybe Jeff Bezos is better than Elon Musk because he's not quite as partisan, but certainly Jeff Bezos realizes that owning the Washington post allows him a kind of influence and authority that he covets in his business and public life. And so he's not just doing this for the betterment of society. Um, and so I think like the, the challenge is that like, we. are increasingly living in this world where, you know, our information is, is, is controlled, at least in part, by oligarchs. And, you know, and I think that's, that, that can have very kind of devastating consequences in the long term unless we figure out a way to deal with it. I mean, in some ways it's, it's, in some ways it's like a, a reversion to what America was in its early days. You know, there's a book called, is it, is it infamous scribblers? It's about the earliest days of like newspapers in the United States. And these were like rabble rousing newspapers that were funded by business interests in order to kind of push forward their own agendas. Right. And so there really was no neutral arbiter. It was all just kind of. You know, business run oligarch owned media. And in some ways, we are kind of moving back to that, right? Like the idea, you know, the idea of, like, you know, kind of the Watergate era of journalism, where it was all very public interest was really I Um, vested in this weird market quirk that allowed the bundling of all of these papers, right? Like, or these things, right? Like, so, classifieds were just this enormous moneymaker that allowed, um, that allowed newspapers to do kind of public interest reporting, and they were able to do stuff that the market wouldn't allow because classifieds were like a monopoly. If you wanted to sell your car, you had to go through the Daily Newspaper, and that Daily Newspaper car ad revenue. funded this great journalism that kept us more open and honest and transparent. But then that all crumbles like in the early, earlier this century, right? Like classifieds go to Craigslist and others and, and there's no longer this bundling of, of kind of, uh, good intentions in journalism and kind of the economic engine. And so what we've seen is kind of journalism crumble, have its kind of, have its economic base crumble. And in response, we've had A number of, you know, solutions. One has been oligarchs like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. Another has been nonprofit media. Another has been the kind of the disbursement of media through, you know, kind of people who have like, you know, a relatively small audience on YouTube, but are able to make a living. And I think that the challenge has been that, like, as a result, you know, we're kind of living in this world of enormous kind of flux and media and information. And I think. You know, to get back to your larger question, then this is allowed, um, foreign intelligence operations to influence us in ways that we haven't seen before. Like, you can go back 20 years, 30 years ago and see how, like, Russian, uh, disinformation was kind of going through, through papers like the National Enquirer or the Globe, and sometimes then it would kind of percolate into the mainstream media. You know, there have been studies on how the Russians did that in the late 20th century, uh, but now it's happening at a, at a, at a way that is just enormously more effective because of not only kind of the rise of social media and the openness of social media, but at the same time, the kind of collapse of more traditional media. Media, right? I mean, I think that the challenge I think we all kind of are grappling with is that in the earlier days of media, there were gatekeepers, right? There was the editor of the New York Times, and there was the, you know, news director at NBC, and there was a handful of people that really held enormous sway over the media that Americans consumed. And that was a very imperfect right. You know, in perfect kind of situation this, but I think at the same time, now we had that collapse where they're no longer gatekeepers, anyone can, you know, with enough effort, get a million followers on twitter X and propagate all sorts of information. And I think the question we have to grapple with is, like, is the current situation, maybe less perfect than the previous 1 and I tend to think it is, but at the same time, I don't think going back to the previous situation is necessarily a good thing, or even a practical thing. And so then the question is, where do we go from here? Like, how do we. How do we kind of live in a society that has information that's reliable when, you know, there are no longer any more gatekeepers?

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 52:33

Yeah, incredible point. You know, one of the things, uh, one of my favorite parts of American Isis was, uh, you kind of had this line where you built up this idea of Russell Dennison growing up with G. I. Joe, you know, and you all at that time in that time period in the late 80s. Like, you know, G. I. Joe was the coolest thing and the Cobra, who are the bad guys, you know, you describe them, they're like these monolith characters while wearing all black and, uh, their leader, um, the Cobra leader wearing all black and stuff. And, you know, you made that comparison that like, he's almost exactly like how we in the West view the leader of ISIS. And Russell grew up to, to become one of them, like one of the bad guys, you know? Um, I totally botched that point. You make that point so much better than I did just now,

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 53:28

No, no, that was good, yeah. No, no, I think that was, I mean, a part of my interest in Russell's story Was that we were, we were peers. I think he was a year or two younger than I was, but as a result, we, we pretty much grew up in a very similar America, like watching Saturday morning cartoons like GI Joe, and, and I thought what was so interesting about it, and this kind of gets that, like, to me, you know, you often hear like, right, right. When people talk about indoctrination and, uh, but, but really like, we're all kind of indoctrinated to some extent by stories and culture. And so we grow up in this culture and we, we begin to, You know, create our values and our idea of right and wrong because we're influenced by the culture at large. And, and so for me, it was always interesting, like as, as a, as a boy watching GI Joe, I had the action figures, like, you know, everyone wanted to be the good guys, right? Like there was this, like, there was this like bad ass good guy named snake eyes, and he was often Luke kid's favorites and no one wanted to be the Cobra and the bad guys. Right. And so it was just amazing to me that like, if you fast forward decades after that, that Russell would have chosen that other path and it's like, why did he choose that other path? Right? But I don't think it's a, you know, sometimes I, you know, I often, I remember like the, the Charlottesville tiki torch parade, right? Of all the neo Nazis. And I remember thinking, and everyone's like, where did these people come from? And, um, and. You know, to me, it's like, that's a good question. But I think part of it is that we just under reported kind of the rise of neo fascism and in America. But then the other part of me that was kind of had that similar question about Russell was like, didn't these guys like watch Indiana Jones? Like the Nazis are the bad guys. Right. And like, I guess like, you know, and I know that's a kind of a superficial point, but the idea is that like, to me, it's like, so interesting, this idea that you would push against kind of the cultural values you grew up with. In order to kind of embrace the bad guy. And like, so for Russell, it was joining ISIS and for, you know, the Tiki torch parade guys, it was becoming, you know, the modern day Nazis. And, and I, I guess like the, I find it interesting of like, what drives people to do that. Right. And all, you know, as we were talking about earlier, like, obviously these people are human and we should like. You know, tell their stories with complexity and humanity. But at the same time, like part of that humanity is like, what drove them to embrace the cultural bad guy. Right. And that is not to say that our cultural norms are always right. That the good guy is always the good guy and the bad guy is always the bad guy. But I think we can mostly agree that the Nazis were bad guys and, uh, that ISIS are bad guys. Right. And so like, that's hard of what, you know, interested me is kind of like this kind of rejection of the culture. Right. And I think, you know, we even You even kind of see it a little bit taken too far. Like you often hear like, conservative is the new punk, right? And it's like, at what, that's fine, you know, but at what point are, you know, is it, is it punk to be Nazis? You know, like, I mean, that's the, you know, that's to me, like, that's like, That's the weird part. At what point does the counterculture go too far? And, I mean, I sound like such an old man by saying that, but I mean, like, I guess I say like, at what, at what point are we taking it like too extreme and, and what drives people to, to embrace the bad guy from the cultural standpoint. And I think that's interesting. And that, that was part of what I tried to explore with Russell and American ISIS. Yeah. I mean,

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 56:46

I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. Like what drives a person to embrace the bad guy and go against the culture to such a degree, you know?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 57:03

what drives people to embrace. Let me back up. I think there are similarities in the drivers for someone like Russell and someone who then embraces kind of like white supremacy and neo Nazism. Um, I mean, I think they're different, and it can be kind of naive to assume that they're all the same. You often see these kind of extremism researchers who You get DHS money saying like, well, because I understand jihadis, I understand, you know, white supremacists and neo Nazis. And I don't think that's necessarily true. But at the same time, I think you can kind of look at what is driving them and see some commonalities. And so for Russell, you know, I think there was this. And for others who, who joined ISIS, there was this feeling like they wanted to be part of something they were living this, like, largely unremarkable life and they, you know, for Russell, his, his economic prospects were, were somewhat muted by the fact that he had a previous drug conviction. He was, he was struggling to kind of move up in life. And ISIS kind of offered him this identity that like, you can leave behind this, you know, so so life that you have in America. This life where you're not recognized as anything important and you can join us and you can be part of this movement and now you are important and you have this identity and and I think if you look at kind of some of the neo Nazis and and and kind of white supremacist movements in the United States like there may be an element of that. Right? These are people that have have largely been left behind in America's economic boom and they feel that the culture is changing in ways that they don't find comfortable and so instead of finding ways to kind of you know, live a life like that. They feel that they can kind of have this identity through this, right? I mean, because there's no other way to explain, like, why, why does someone join a hate filled ideology, right? Like, are they just hateful people? Like, potentially, sure, there are, there are some of those people, but I also think there's a, there are people that are just feeling like they are, you know, looking to have some sort of identity. And some of that might be, you know, kind of this counterculture that, like, mom and dad were liberals, so I'm going to be a crazy neo Nazi. Like, I, maybe that's part of it. There's certainly elements, but, and then there's also partly. People who are just like, you know, wanting to find this kind of identity. And I think, you know, they're living this life where they're otherwise inconsequential, and this is a way to do that. Like if you look at, you know, if you look, for example, At the majority of people who participated in January 6, you know, these are people who were like, mostly anonymous in the world, right? They were, you know, not doing great economically. They were not people that you necessarily, you know, with some exceptions, like, would have known about. And that gave them this kind of, um, You know, made them feel like they were part of this movement. And I think that's kind of a part of what drives it. And, and I think like, that's part of like, I think that's part of what we have to understand when we like think about these kind of more extremist movements is that it's not just someone who just wants to burn the world down. Like there is like a psychological component to like why they're being, why they're attracted to this. And to, you know, and to understand that is to understand their humanity, but it also begins to understand like what we can do about it. Like if we don't want the growth of these extremist movements, maybe it does help for us to understand, you know, why people are joining these groups like that.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:00:24

Fascinating. Fascinating. So I love that. I guess like that analysis, the reason why, like, as you were saying it, you know, it's interesting, it's like, I'm a little bit almost hesitant to fully agree with it because it's like, look at the extent to which Russell agreed. Like he, I think he really believed in Allah. You know, I think he, like, and the cause of jihad and, and ISIS, you know, so much so like he sacrificed his life. And I, I think there was such strong, um, convictions spiritually and, and physically, even like he mentioned how he saw the light coming out of the Quran. And those were like real spiritual experiences for, for Russell. And it's like, like, you know, and maybe it's true. Maybe the, the, the drive for uniqueness, Can, in fact, drive someone to that level of belief, but like, I don't know, like, as you said, I feel like, is that really possible? Is it really possible for someone to, to have like, legitimate spiritual experiences just to feel unique in a sense? Like, is, like, that being the driving factor? You know what I mean?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:01:25

Yeah. I mean, I guess this would be more a question for you given your training than me, but like, um, you know, to me, it's kind of a question of the level of delusion, right? Like, can you dilute yourself enough to like, feel like these things are happening to you or do they really happen? You know, I can't say that, that Russell didn't see. The light coming from the Quran. Um, but maybe he did, maybe didn't, or maybe he, you know, was looking for meaning in his life to such an extent that he imagined it, you know, I don't know, like, you know, maybe those are all, I mean, the, you know, the atheist might argue that those are all, you know, all, all these spiritual, you know, Encounters are really just kind of delusions that the person kind of, you know, believes that they're experiencing this when they're, they're really not, you know, I mean, I think in American, in American Isis, what I tried to let, you know, I'm glad you say that because I'm my goal in American Isis was not to be prescriptive

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:02:17

Right.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:02:18

Russell's belief. Like, I wanted Russell to present. His story and allow the listener to kind of come to their conclusions about what Russell thought. And I do think there are a couple of conclusions that you could come to, like, 1 would be that that Russell was diluting himself and that these weren't really, um, these things didn't really happen, but maybe happened in his mind because he was kind of convincing himself of, you know, the uniqueness of his path on Islam. Uh, and then the other is that maybe these things did happen and that there was a spiritual aspect. You know, in the, in his calling to Islam and that he just took it too far, took it to an extremist standpoint. And I don't know the answer to that. And, but I think like, you know, for someone who joins like the proud boys or someone who joins like a white supremacist or neo Nazi movement, there must be a similar experience, right? Like they, they're not seeing the light from the Quran, but they're, they're clearly experiencing something that makes them believe That this is the right path for them and you know, and I think that's interesting. It's interesting to kind of look at as a journalist as a human, because it's like, it's hard to make any kind of logical argument that joining Isis or the Proud Boys is a is a thing. Someone should do. But at the same time, you know, there are people who do it. And the question is, is why? And I think, you know, it isn't just that they are saying. Like, as we were speaking about earlier, that those are the bad guys, and I'm going to be counter culture and join the bad guys. It's that there is something more than that. And they're, they're drawing some sort of meaning in wanting to do that. Something so much more that they're willing to join the kind of historical bad guys, right? The cultural bad guys. And I think that's interesting, you know? You know, and, you know, this is kind of the luxury of journalism compared to other fields, which is that, like, I don't have to have the answer. I can just point out the information and say, like, this is interesting because I really don't know the answer. I mean, it is interesting that this happens, but I don't know the answer. And I think maybe what I would argue from Russell's story is that, like, for every person, It is different and what drives them there. I mean, I think there is this tendency in looking at extremists, whether it's terrorists or, you know, far right, domestic extremists to, to believe that there is this formula for radicalization that, you know, if they do X, Y, and Z, they become radicalized. I mean, at its simplest, you know, at its simplest explanation with like, uh, Islamist extremist, it was like, Oh, if they watch these extremist videos from Anwar al Daki. Then abracadabra, they become extremists. And obviously that isn't true, right? There, there are, there's no way that we can break down kind of formula toward extremism and radicalization for every person. There is a kind of unique journey to that. And there may be commonalities that we can look at, but there is something very unique. And I, and I, that was part of why I thought Russell's story. Was interesting and informative and not just for Islamist extremists, but extremists all around, which is to kind of be able to show through his story and his mind and his thoughts, like how it was that he got there, because I think that's something that we don't really think enough about. It's easy for us to be like, oh, those are the bad guys, but like, how did they become the bad guys? You know, and I think that's, that's really the interesting question.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:05:29

Fascinating. Yeah. And, and I mean, I have two interesting points. Uh, I was talking with, um, a not religious person one time and very smart guy. And we were talking and about religion versus secularism and having a back and forth. And, you know, somebody chimed in and said, I think religion is, is the biggest threat in the world. Like, we see like religious extremism, you know, killing lots of people, like causing 9 11, causing the rise of ISIS and all sorts of, you know, the creating wars. And you know, I kind of like, I was thinking, like, should I respond? And I was like, yeah, you know what? So I thought I was like, I mean, have you heard of, uh, Nazism and, uh, and communism, like how many millions of people have died? Under non religious extremism. You know, like the real problem is extremism, you know, extremism of any kind, as soon as you give into dogmas, whether it's religious or not religious, like that's, that's when you have problems, you know? Um, and I think what's so interesting is like, what makes extremism so appealing for some people? And it's like, yeah, you know, this drive for uniqueness, like you said, like, I'm sure that that definitely is a factor. Um, this, um, you know, the community I'm sure is another factor. Like you hear Russell Dennison, he talks about his, his brothers, you know, the other Islamists. And it's like that, that tight knit bond. Um, I'm sure that that's another reinforcing factor, a strong one. Um, and you know, like I think about it and, and it's funny, I thought you made this point in American ISIS and correct me if I'm wrong, but like, You know, like in Western culture, you could do anything like today. Thanks to the advancements of the scientific method and, and, you know, science and all the things that are created, like the amount of opportunities you could have today to do whatever it is that you want, you know, you can become a doctor, um, a YouTuber, a, uh, like a business owner of any kind, like chat, GPT makes it so easy to like create websites and stuff like that. Like anyone, like the barrier to entry to do almost anything today. Is, is way lower than ever before. Like you could, you could really do anything. Like right now I'm starting, I have a podcast, you know, it's not, it's not huge or anything, hopefully one day it does become huge, but like that would have been impossible to me like 30 years ago and now it's something that I'm able to do and I love doing it and I'm so grateful for that opportunity and it's like, Russell had YouTube talents. He had all sorts of things that he could have done. You know, it, it didn't, he, he didn't go down that route. Instead, like he went down this extremist path and it's like, why, you know, why was he so lost when there are more opportunities today than, than ever before? And I think that part of the reason is like in Western culture, there's no calling. There's nothing that, that looks down at you and says, uh, Trevor Aronson, you need to become a journalist. Uh, Gabby, you need to become a podcaster and a therapist. You know, like there's no, there's no, Almost like godly calling, but joining the jihad, like this is, this is a much greater calling, this is coming from something divine, you know, like, like this is your, uh, calling Russell Dennison, go ahead and fight the good fight, uh, for, for me, you know what I mean? Or like for the neo Nazis, perhaps it's similar where it's like, they feel. Um, you know, I don't know exactly what the neo Nazi beliefs are, but like they're the Aryan race or whatever. So it's like they're, they're doing a moral good for evolution by, uh, you know, perpetuating their race and eliminating the others. So it's like there, there's like a higher calling there. Like there's something that within their values, there's an objective, clear cut, higher calling. Um, I'm curious to hear what you think about that.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:09:02

No, I agree with you. I mean, I think, I mean, I think if you look at like, I agree with you on the larger issue that like, I think it's naive to say. That all of this violence is caused by religious extremism, right? I mean, obviously, as you pointed out, like, there have been, you know, there was horrific violence committed by Nazis by, you know, the Soviet, you know, communists. And so that is not, you know, kind of extremism and violence is not unique to religious extremism. But at the same time, I think, you know, if you look at, you know, Kind of the recent history, you can kind of point out how religious extremism seems to be kind of adopted as almost like a last resort. Like, you know, for example, the rise of, you know, Islamist extremism in Iran was largely due to the fact that we propped up this brutal. You know, regime there that, you know, left its citizens with no choice, but to embrace kind of, um, Islamist extremism as a way of overthrowing that government. And, and so sometimes I think, you know, you can use that as a way of kind of looking through the lens of America in a sense. And I think one of the, you know, one of the things that I think we clearly did is that we like turned our back on America's industrial base. So if you look at the Midwest and we kind of exported a lot of these jobs to, you know, to China and elsewhere. Uh, in our manufacturing base, because it made sense economically, but ultimately hollowed out America's middle class. And I think, um, when you look at the MAGA movement in particular, I mean, I think one of the things that Steve Bannon did was to recognize that that hollowed out middle class, the, the people that were left in the industrial base, you know, were, were hurting economically. And, and I think, you know, it does get at this issue that you describe, which is that like, There is this irony that there is a large portion of America that feels that it is economically disenfranchised. At the same time, there is like enormous opportunity in America, right? Like you can start a, you can start a podcast, you can invest in a 401k, the stock market is at all time highs. Like there is a, there is a, There, there is a clearer path to wealth and affluence in this country than in any other, despite kind of the problems economically. Right. So, you know, there are certainly stories of people who kind of rose up from the rust belt and prospered in the United States, despite the economic challenges. But there's also a whole group of people that, for whatever reason, and it's not laziness, but for whatever reason, just haven't been able to attain That path or get on that path. And I think there's a there's an aspiration to look to blame someone maybe in the same way that Iranians, you know, during the shop, you know, we're looking for someone to kind of change the system. And I think, you know, when you look at kind of the extremist elements of the mega movement, you know, I think that is kind of part of it that there's this feeling like I got left behind. The system is against me and this movement and this guy and President Trump is going to, you know, overturn the system in reality. I think, you know, it's kind of the the irony of kind of often like African dictators, right? Who run against someone saying he's corrupt, even though they're really more corrupt. Right? And I think, you know, to a certain extent, like the mega movement and kind of right wing extremism has been able to animate this idea of people who've been left behind. And this gives them. You know, really something, you know, to go against and they're, they're angry, right? I think, you know, I think when you talk, when you listen to a lot of, you know, Trump voters, especially those that go to the rallies, you know, you don't really hear them talk about specific policy or things that they want in this country. It's, it's really kind of like a revenge tour. And, you know, in, in some ways I see that as the extremism that they are just mad at America and, and maybe for very good reasons. But they're, they're, they're kind of seeing in Trump this, this idea that they need to tear it down, right? Just as Iranians wanted to tear the Shah down. But then the question is, did, did Iran get a better government after the revolution? And like, would we get a better government in, in Trump? And I think that's the kind of scariness of extremism that like, In some ways, they are reacting to, to a rightful grievance, but at the same time, by being extremist to it, they are going to potentially create a system that is even worse for them, and they're often acting against their interests, and I don't know if I kind of veered too much from your point, but I guess that's where, like, that's, that's where I kind of find, like, the study of kind of extremism really interesting, that, like, Yeah, very reactionary. And I think, you know, it allows ambitious politicians like Trump to take advantage of that. They, I mean, you know, in some ways, like I, I admire Trump's ability to recognize that in America at a time when not many people did, that there was this kind of grieving group of Americans that were kind of. inclined to look at someone who was just going to burn the whole thing down. And, you know, and I think he was able to animate that in a very good way. And I think, you know, kind of going forward, if we're able to kind of get beyond a lot of the kind of, you know, partisanship and polarization that we now have, I mean, I hope that as a, as a, as a society, that's one of the issues that we will, we will look at is like how kind of America's leading into leaning into globalization really kind of hollowed out Our middle class in a way that was harmful to the nation as a whole, because I do, I do tend to believe in the cliche that, you know, a strong democracy requires a healthy middle class. And I think, you know, that's really where we're, um, you know, struggling right now is that we have hollowed out the middle class. The kind of industrial base and the manufacturing base of this country, you know, at the great expense of people who were employed in that area and to the great wealth of kind of the oligarchs. And so as we see kind of wealth, you know, created increasingly, you know, grow in the wealth gap and grow increasingly. I mean, I think that's one of the things we can look at, you know, the challenge I think is that I don't think, I mean, the irony is, I think that, you know, Trump in, in wanting to like give huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. Is doing exactly the opposite of what those people who are animated by him need done. But for whatever reason, they're refusing to kind of see that because they see in him this person that's just going to burn the system down.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:15:18

Yeah, you know, it is really crazy. And to me, what's bizarre is I make more money than my parents, you know, and my parents came here. They were immigrants, you know, from another country. They came in their thirties. They didn't know the language. And they came to New York City, you know, bought two properties and then a condo and they retired and they have money like I don't ever see how I would be able to buy a house at my current income state, you know, like, in in this climate in New York, like, or an apartment, even like, this is not possible to do to do that. And, um, And it's, and I make more money than them, you know what I mean? Like I made more money than they were making. So it is crazy how that's just become a reality. Like, uh, you know, and that's definitely something seen and I have a master's degree, you know, so I can't even imagine people that, that don't have that and are making less money. You know, like how are they even affording life? You know, it's, it's hard to understand. Um, so, and part of the problem with democracy, I love democracy. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't have democracy, but part of the problem is, is that the person who's popular, you know, who has the charisma and is able to get the votes and is able to rally up the, the people to vote for him, isn't always the person with the best ideas also, you know, that would be merit, meritocracy. Merit, I don't know what the word would be, but

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:16:34

Very tough as a game. Yeah, yeah.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:16:37

You know, like that professor that, like, probably could come up with the best economic plan for taxes and housing and all that stuff, like, probably can't express it well enough for the average person to vote for him. You know what I mean? So it's like, there's that, that discrepancy there too. This is going off tangent, but, uh, So I want to point that out.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:16:53

No, no, I agree. I mean, I think, you know, your generation in particular has it very difficult. Um, and, and I think, um, and I don't, I don't know the policy solution to that other than like, in the, in the, in the short and long term, we probably just need to build a lot more housing in this country. Um, and, and I think there, you know, I, I think there could be some big ideas and like, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, kind of the Chinese style of like building all new cities. And if there was kind of like a big public works project, I think, you know, a lot of the issues that your generation and younger generations in particular having is that like. You know, housing and the financialization of the housing market, you know, has, has caused these, you know, enormous price increases and supply and demand is out of whack to some extent. Um, I also, like, I agree with you in the sense that I think, um, I think the most charismatic person often is the one that wins, even if they don't have the right ideas. Um, I also think that there's been a dumbing down of media that kind of allows for that more than anything else. So, as an example. You know, I, you know, there's a lot of talk of inflation now and how inflation is a, uh, is a, you know, political black eye for, for Biden as he runs for reelection. And Trump is using it on the campaign trail. And, you know, if I were Trump, I would be doing the same. But I think the problem is that like the way we talk about issues in this country, Um, you know, it's too simplistic, right? Like, you know, I think when people talk about like, oh, well, like eggs are 5 when they should have been three when they were three, what they don't think about is like, well, we could have 30 percent unemployment. And eggs would be 2, right? And like, what's the better situation? And, and I think like often, like, you know, we, we don't really kind of talk about issues in the kind of clear framing that, that we need to. Like, I think I agree with you. Inflation is terrible. I wish we didn't have inflation, but like coming out of the pandemic, when we injected millions of dollars. Excuse me, billions of dollars and just printed money. There were really only two ways to grapple with that, right? One was to deal with inflation or one was to go into a depression. And I think some very smart people, thankfully still in the government realize like, we're not going to do that depression thing again. And so we have to like. Deal with inflation. And so the inflation is just something we have to deal with. It's not that Biden created it. Maybe he did things that made it slightly worse, slightly better, but it's, it's a persistent thing that would exist whether Trump was president or Biden was president, or I was president or you were president, right? Like this is just like the economic reality of a post pandemic America. But this becomes like this political talking point. That is effective because Americans are mad that that eggs are 5 and and and not thinking like, well, I could be unemployed instead. And, um, and I think that's part of the challenge is like, how do we, how do we begin to, like, have a civic life? where we can talk about these things in the complexities that they deserve, right? Rather than just being like, or just having, like, having this idea that like, everything is a zero sum game, like inflation exists and I win or inflation exists and you lose, right? Like, it's just like, that's not really the reality. And I think like, that's part of the problem too, is that like, in addition to like charismatic people, often being the ones who. Carry the day in elections. It's like, I don't even know that we're really talking about the issues in ways that are, you know, logical and intelligent, right? We're just kind of talking about like, throwing shit at the wall and people respond to it. And I think that's really problematic. And I, you know, and I think often like, you know, I can't blame like average news consumers because I get it. Like they go to the store. Eggs are 5. They turn on the cable news and they're complaining about inflation. And so they're mad and legitimately, but the problem is that like the entire context of what happened and what could have happened had we not, you know, the, the much worse situation that we could be in is never really discussed. And I think as a result, you know, and this is kind of, you know, the, the challenge of democracy is that we tend to whipsaw from policy to policy, uh, without a lot of kind of intelligent thought because, you know, We're just, we're, we're dealing with an electorate that maybe isn't as well educated on the issues as it should be. And not because it's their fault, just because the media is largely failing and doing its job and doing so.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:21:06

Fascinating. Yeah. You know, there's this book McWest. Uh, it's about combating conspiracy theory thinking, and, you know, we, we touched on this point earlier for the need of, uh, just like to need to, to kind of step away from this idea that the world is so chaotic, you know, people can't handle the chaos. So they kind of fall into these, uh, other conspiracies or other extreme beliefs. And, you know, I had this one story where I was, uh, I was visiting my nephews in a camp, and This 11 year old kid, I don't remember the exact story, but like he came up to us and he just started rambling conspiracy theories and getting really bizarre. Like, Joe Biden's a lizard person, this person's like, like legitimately, like straight up believing it. And you know, I think part of the idea was, uh, you know, that a lot of people have is like, oh, these people are crazy, you know, just dismiss them. And this kid is like, he's some 11 year old kid. And my nephew's right where we're like, okay, kid, like you're crazy, you know, whatever. And I was like, no, no, no. Like I started listening to the kid and hearing him out and, and through the book, the book teaches you, you know, to, to kind of have that approach where you're actually like listening, taking their, their beliefs seriously. And I was talking with this kid and it turns out he was, he was brilliant. You know, he had like, like for an 11 year old kid, he like, he knew a lot of random things about history and politics and this and that, and I was talking with him and we were going back and forth throughout history and geopolitics and, um, you know, other scientific, uh, you know, areas and stuff. And we probably talked for like an hour. And at the end of it, this kid was like, and it turned out like at the root of it for this kid, it was that he couldn't believe that the world is just random, that things are just happening, you know, and we're figuring it out day by day. Like, he's like, there has to be some type of person behind the scenes controlling it. And, um, You know, and I think religion is a form of, of coming to that too, where it's like, okay, there's a God that has a plan and, and, you know, there, there's some type of structure here. It's not all chaotic, you know, so people delegate their, you know, their, their unsteadiness and chaos to religion, but, you know, that's what it was for this kid and, and through talking to him and like getting down to the bottom of it. He really was like, you know what? Like he was convinced he thought he was like, he's like, yeah, you know, I, the world is really chaotic and he felt okay. You know, because I talked with him and I was like, yeah, it's, it's tough. It's a tough world to, to really navigate, but you know, you have your choices and we're living in this chaos. And that's what it is. And he was, he told me, he's like, you should start a podcast, you know? So I was like, I have a podcast. Um, but basically, um, but basically that's what happens. And it's interesting. And I think. I think the world could be a better place if we, we taught that kind of skill of listening to others and, and the work that you do is so incredible because you're, you share the perspective. I mean, like, I think people confuse when you listen and you understand somebody's perspective. That's not the same thing as agreeing with them. Those are two completely different things. Um, but, but I think people don't realize that and people don't, don't have that, that grace and that decency. Well, at least it seems that way, you know, it seems that people don't have it. I, you know, I'm, I'm kind of like on my high horse. Like, yeah, I listened to other people. I I'm sure many other people do like, you know, tons of people do too, but that's what seems to be missing publicly, you know,

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:24:17

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think like there is a tendency to, um, kind of stay in the filter bubble and want to just hear what, you know, the things you want to hear. And I'm not quite sure why that is. Cause I agree with you. I mean, I've always come, I've always been interested in hearing differing opinions. You know, I mean, I think, you know, there, there are certainly, you know, people who. Differ from me in political ideology and but make really great arguments and I want to hear them in part because I'm interested in them. In part, I think it makes me a more educated citizen and also makes me a more persuasive communicator of my own opinions to, um, be able to kind of understand. You know, the differing opinions that are there. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I, I also think, you know, we also live in this world where, like, I, you know, I agree with you. And then one of the kind of more provocative ideas I've been wrestling with is this idea that, um, and I, and I say this as a secularist, um, You know, I agree with you in the sense that, like, I think religion historically has been a way for people to kind of make sense of the chaos, like, it doesn't seem so chaotic because, you know, this is God's will and God is behind all this and so I can accept the chaos because I know This is part of some master plan that, um, that is divine. And, uh, you know, and I, I sometimes, you know, look at QAnon and, and think of it as like using kind of the power of religion, right. And in a kind of like more secular world. And, and so you convince people of this, you know, idea because, you know, you can say like all, you know, the chaos that you're seeing in the world and the. The word vomit that is coming from Donald Trump, like it actually means something because there's this important person behind the scenes, Q, who is like helping guide the world to where it needs to go and we'll find all the sex traffickers and, and we'll kind of guide us into like, you know, the, the new kind of era of prosperity, prosperity for the United States and, and, and, and you see kind of the devotion. To QAnon in almost kind of religious ways, right? And I, and I guess like what I find concerning for our country in some ways is like, you know, you were mentioning earlier kind of like Christian extremism and like there's extremism all around, certainly. Um, but I also think you're, you're seeing kind of the, the powers of religion in, in a world that is becoming increasingly less religious in a traditional sense, being kind of used in ways that I think are quite You know, deceitful and scary, you know, and it is like terrifying to me to, to think that there are, you know, millions of Americans potentially, I know that may be an exaggeration, hundreds of thousands who. believe in QAnon in a way that, you know, Christians believe in Christianity, right? Or Jews believe in Judaism. And I, and I think like, and you know, and that isn't to say, I mean, I guess that raises larger questions of whether like Christianity and Judaism are any more legitimate a religion than QAnon. I don't want to make that argument, but I'm saying that like, you know, the, the devotion to that kind of, um, ideology with such religion, religiosity, I think is truly terrifying. And it kind of like, And, and I think, you know, if, if, you know, the people who are behind QAnon, I mean, it's, it's fairly brilliant in the way that L. Ron Hubbard created Scientology, like, they've created this, um, kind of pseudo religious ideology that, that people are, are going behind, and it, it is in fact animating voting. In the United States and, and I think, you know, um, and, and, and so I, I think also like that, you know, there is this kind of marriage and confluence of conspiracy theories and religion, um, that really kind of come together in, in Q anon in really kind of interesting and terrifying way.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:27:50

This is so fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you about this for like, we should do a whole other podcast episode about QAnon. Um, I don't really know much about it. So it would just be me asking you questions, but, um, but that sounds fascinating and it's like, it's definitely. I think like to a degree, how do I put this? It's like, there's almost like a spectrum of ideas that are disconnected from reality. You know what I mean? Like organized religion, I think is like one side of the spectrum, not to say that any religion is false or anything like that or true, but just to say like, there's this idea of like organized religion and then there's like cults and then there's conspiracy theories and like, Like at what point do those things like blend, but they, they're all kind of about like something that like is, is semi, is kind of disconnected from reality. It's not like, um, it's not provable or something you could see directly through. Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't know if I'm making this

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:28:49

No, no, I, I, I, I agree. I mean, I think that's what's kind of interesting is like, you know, if, you know, if, if, if religion and the history of religion proves anything. It's that humanity really wants this explanation for the chaos, right? Like wants to have this kind of article of faith that like this is all happening, uh, for reasons that are explainable and divine. And, um, and, and I, and I think, you know, you can kind of look at that and, you know, as America has become less religious, You know, we've also kind of seen kind of the rise of these conspiracy theories, not that conspiracy theories are necessarily new, but there's been a proliferation of them in part, I would argue, you know, because of communications differences, the internet in particular, but also I think, you know, in a, and I, and I say this as a secularist, so as I'm not some like, you know, kind of person who's necessarily promoting organized religion, but I, I, I think as Americans have moved away from more traditional religions, you know, kind of conspiracy theories have kind of filled that. Uh, that need in them for for kind of an article of faith that that religions in the past had. Um, and I think that that's where, you know, there is kind of this interesting confluence between like conspiracy theory and and religion, you know, and and kind of in this power of story and narrative, right? Like, you know, you know, I think obviously, you know, Believers in Scientology would disagree with this history, but, you know, L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer and was basically like, you know, can we make a religion and he made Scientology and, you know, because he, he realized that the power of story and animates people toward things like religion and, you know, and so, you know, obviously, like, you know, the stories from the Bible are kind of, you know, have influenced, you know, the stories that we read today. And, and so, you know, I, I think, you know, if you look at conspiracy theories, I think, you know, if you look at conspiracy theories, A part of their power is in their storytelling and in the story that, that they, that they tell in the simplistic story that they tell. And so it's, it's much easier for someone to say, okay, I'm going to believe that the world is crazy like this because George Soros is like, you know, using his space lasers to, you know, You know, change the atmosphere in ways that, like, affects everything, right? Or whatever. And instead of believing that the world is chaotic because it's chaotic and there's a thousand things we need to explore in order to explain that chaos, the kind of more simplistic story is one that, um, that we kind of cling to. And in the same way that you could argue that Perhaps the more simplistic story of God creating Earth and, and, you know, kind of, you know, uh, everything that's in the Bible and the Koran and explaining why the world is the way it is, is the more simplistic argument or the more simplistic story, maybe the more compelling story than kind of the larger, the world is crazy and chaotic. And I think that's kind of, that's kind of what draws people to these conspiracy theories now is that kind of simple explanation. And I think, you know, in, in many ways we're seeing kind of the proliferation. Of conspiracy theories. On the right, in particular in the United States, because the story is so simplistic and so compelling, right? Like, it's like, you know, kind of the evil Illuminati. I mean, they don't use that term anymore, but the evil kind of, you know, you know, these, you know, these, you know, going back in the evil Jewish bankers. Are controlling the world and that's why we have the world we have. Right? Yeah. And it's like, and so I think that's, I mean, it's all kind of using the same story of old, but kind of, you know, making it simplistic. And so instead of like, you know, God creating the world and this is the way it is, it's this kind of evil cabal of, uh, anti American people who are, who are doing it. And that, that resonates as, you know, and I think like, Okay. You know, and I think the challenge is like, how do you, how do you get people to think about the world as, as chaotic and difficult to explain versus how do you get them to just want to point the finger and blame someone and say, that's the person who did it. And I, and I think that's really the power of conspiracy theory that, you know, as kind of faith has declined in traditional religions, you know, there has been this kind of adoption of kind of these ideologies that have very much kind of religious undertones and they're kind of articles of faith.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:32:56

this has been such a fascinating conversation. I have like so much more to say and talk to you about. I feel like we, we really could do another episode tomorrow, honestly, but uh, I definitely want to have you back. And we didn't even get to talk about your investigation into the FBI and other stuff like that. And, um, I'm, I'm actually really excited. I definitely want to do a part two, if you'd be interested.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:33:16

Sure. Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah. And I appreciate you having me.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:33:19

Yeah, of course. Of course. Um, so first of all, before I ask you the last question, uh, do you want to shout out any projects that you're doing? And, uh, you know, where can people find you?

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:33:29

Sure. Yeah. So, uh, I'm, uh, at Trevor Aronson on both, uh, excuse me, at Trevor Aronson at most social media platforms. Um, and I do have a project coming out July 11th that I'm excited about. It's a, it's an audible podcast. Uh, called Pulse, The Untold Story, and it's about, um, the investigations leading up to the Pulse nightclub shooting and questions of whether the FBI could have stopped the attack and, and the, the links that went to to maybe, um, the links that went to to kind of cover up the, its own complicity in the, in the, in stopping the attack.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:33:59

Okay.

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:33:59

that's the end of the article. Yeah, that'll be on Audible starting July 11th.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:34:03

Okay. Awesome. That, that is so incredible. I'm looking forward to, uh, to listening to it. Um, Trevor, if there was one thing that you can yell from the rooftops that if everyone was listening to right now, you know, what would you want them to know the mystery

trevor-aaronson_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:34:19

I mean, I guess I would say, like, just be skeptical, right? Like, I feel like there is, like, not enough kind of skepticism in the country, like, that we are too willing to, like, see a tweet or see an Instagram post and just believe that is, that is, true. And then the other thing, like, you know, the theme of this conversation, I guess, is just kind of an embrace the idea that, like, The world and ideas are really complex and that like, we may not have answers for everything. And some of those answers may be quite challenging to understand. Um, but I think we should aspire to try to understand them as opposed to kind of leaning too quickly on kind of easy answers and easy solutions and kind of, you know, the ideas of kind of, you know, articles of faith that like, Explain everything when in reality that, you know, I think the world is much more chaotic and we should just embrace that and try our best to understand it with, you know, also understanding that we may end our lives here, not fully understanding it because it may, that may be impossible.

gabi_1_06-19-2024_092000: 1:35:20

of life? I love it. Um, guys, as always, uh, stay curious, you know, you're capable, think for yourself, and to the rebellion.

1:35:27

All right friends. That's it for my episode with Trevor Aaronson. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Go ahead and subscribe. If you've made it this far and leave a comment, what are your thoughts on this episode? I'm very curious to hear from you. Additionally, make sure you send Trevor some love. Check out his brand new podcast, a pulse, the untold story investigating. FBI's handling of the. Events leading up to the pulse nightclub shooting. It's honestly an eye opening. Fascinating, very important podcast and story. I found it riveting. It was incredible American ISIS, one of my favorite podcasts of all time. go check that one out as well. And like I said, be sure you send Trevor some love. You can go ahead and check out the Pedro and page for more content and as well as the men's therapy studio to book a session with a licensed mental health professional. Look forward to hearing from you guys. Genuinely Trevor has been a dream guest for me. I'm a huge fan of his. So thank you so much, Trevor, for coming onto the podcast. Guys, subscribe for this journey. It's incredible. Next week I'm hosting Jessica Wong, who is a career and life coach who focuses on first-generation Americans. She's an incredible person and the conversation was awesome as well. Subscribe for that. See you next week. And as always, you are capable. Think for yourself, stay curious. And to the rebellion.