If you're curious about what it's like to experience a free birth with the baby born en caul (still in the bag of waters!) then this episode is for you. Join me as I chat with Hope Evans, an experienced free birth mama, holistic practitioner, and contributor to my latest book Women of the Wild - a book of first hand empowering home birth and free birth stories and birth prep wisdom from women all over the world. We take a deeper dive into her personal story and her experience as she shares all about the free birth of her second child as well as the interesting differences between her freebirth and the birth of her firstborn, which was in the hospital system setting.
Connect deeper with Hope on instagram @_adashofhope
Purchase 'Women of the Wild'
Connect with the host, Jenni Dais
If you're curious about what it's like to experience a free birth with the baby born en caul (still in the bag of waters!) then this episode is for you. Join me as I chat with Hope Evans, an experienced free birth mama, holistic practitioner, and contributor to my latest book Women of the Wild - a book of first hand empowering home birth and free birth stories and birth prep wisdom from women all over the world. We take a deeper dive into her personal story and her experience as she shares all about the free birth of her second child as well as the interesting differences between her freebirth and the birth of her firstborn, which was in the hospital system setting.
Connect deeper with Hope on instagram @_adashofhope
Purchase 'Women of the Wild'
Connect with the host, Jenni Dais
Welcome to Women of the Wild Podcast. Here, our community of wise women comes together to explore and discuss naturopathic medicine, fertility free birth, and cultivating inner peace and joy through embracing alternative lifestyles. These are powerful women and pioneers in the modern age who choose to live and heal free of Westernized limitations. Many we will speak to have bravely and successfully cured themselves through chronic and even terminal illness prior to setting forth on their mission to offer healing to others. Together we return to our roots, to our inner wisdom and our birthrights to the wild in all of us, and together we grow to change the world. I'm your host. Today we are having the pleasure to connect with Hope Evans Hope is one of the beautiful mamas featured in my book, women of the Wild. She was gracious enough to share her powerful birth story with everyone there, and now she's agreed to pop on and let us dig a little deeper into her wisdom. Thank you so much for making time to come here today and have a talk with me. I would love to start with just getting to know you a little bit. Sure. So I am a mom of two, so I have a daughter that is almost four and a son that is 16 months. We live in South Carolina and we're actually originally from Pennsylvania. We moved here back in 20 20 17 because it was just too damn expensive in Pennsylvania. And we have two dogs and I've a holistic background. I dove into it back in 2016 when I went on my honeymoon and learned about toxins. I didn't know anything about toxins, but I was on a cruise ship and the personal trainer that I was seeing on the ship said that I had a lot of toxins in my body cuz I was having a lot of issues like with my stomach. And so he told me about that and I had like a huge detox and ever since then my stomach has been way more tamed. Oh, that's amazing. So what kind of detox did you do on a cruise? Usually it's quite the opposite, you know, but he goes above and beyond eating on the cruise. Yeah, I mean, he just, he kind of told me, told my husband and I to do this detox bath. So it had like magnesium and minerals. And then he told us like to eat certain foods, so obviously stay away from processed and greasy food. And I had been eating a lot of that stuff. I was told to avoid that and I had a lot of bloating and a lot of gas and I went to like 15 different gastroenterologists to figure out what was wrong with me and couldn't figure it out. So like, When he started talking about toxins, I started doing my own research, which is how I got into the holistic realm. I wasn't always in that sort of realm. And also my daughter was vaccine injured When I had my daughter, I had her in 2019 and I was kind of led to have her as a hospital birth. So I went and I did all of the routine checkups and all that stuff and I had been thinking maybe I should try and do a family doctor instead of a pediatrician, cuz I wasn't really 100% on board with vaccines. And the problem is that, We don't ask questions like a lot of us are just told, you know, sit down and, you know, respect your elders, respect the system, and then you'll be accepted. So my mother-in-law's actually a nurse and it was our first kid and I didn't, again, I didn't know any better, so I just kind of, you know, listened to her and went with, with what she suggested. So we went and we got. My daughter vaccinated up until six months. Around the four month mark was when I started feeling really uncomfortable with it. Just seeing her every single time, she'd get a vaccine, really uncomfortable. In her skin like was like red and it just didn't sit well with me. So I pulled the plug at six months and 2020 I had to spend going to 11 different doctors to figure out what was wrong with her. She had a lot of bloating, a lot of gas, a lot of reflux. She was randomly crying in the middle of the night. Like I didn't know what was going on with her. I thought maybe, you know, this is a developmental thing. This is a leap. Everyone told me it was normal. Somebody told me that I needed to sleep, train her. That's the reason why she was acting like that. Like Wow. That's, that's wild to hear, you know, that it's just become so normalized to. Shove it off like it's a sleep problem or a developmental issue, you know? Right, exactly. Like that's not the, that's not getting to the root cause of the problem. No, no. So that was your eyeopening moment of wanting to get into the holistic realm. Right. Yes, cuz. Cuz then I ended up like at the end of the road cuz I didn't know what else to do. I went to a naturopath and a chiropractor and I was like, this is the end for me. I don't know what else to do. And both of them confirmed that she was in fact vaccine injured, which is why I wanted to do a complete 180 when it came to my second. Were they able to do anything to help her? Yeah. I mean she needed she needed adjustments for six months, three times a week because her nervous system was so out of whack. She was not really communicating verbally. She wasn't really showing eye contact, like she wouldn't really look at you. She was on the road to autism. Seeing both of them for about six to six months to about a year, she completely changed and it was, I was really happy because I was afraid that something else might pop up like later on if I didn't end up. Pairing them. Yeah, of course. That's amazing that they were able to step in and help her and that you were able to notice such a difference. That's really cool. Yeah. So do you do like any like work in the holistic field yourself or are you just you know, you do it for yourself and your family? Well, I am certified as a holistic health coach. For integrated nutrition. Yeah. It's based out of New York City. So, yeah, I'm, I'm taking clients. I have a client right now. She's almost done the program, but yeah, I'm always, I'm always looking to help moms, especially help with reading food labels and understanding, you know, their emotions. And also I feel like this is another part of it where, The mom intuition is never wrong. Like teaching them to speak up for themselves and to advocate for their children, cuz nobody else is gonna do it right. Yeah, that's absolutely the truth. So I'd love to jump into the story of your second baby and hear about, you know, the, the challenges and the differences between your first and your second. Throughout your experience would be pretty cool since you had two such opposite experiences. You can give a firsthand comparison for other people that might be, Curious about doing a free birth themselves. Yeah, sure. So I actually learned about free birth through my chiropractor. She had done two th two free births. Never heard of it before. Obviously not something that's really publicized. As I said, that experience with my daughter, I knew that I wanted to completely change my route. So when I got pregnant back in April of 2021, I was like, what do I do? Because, you know, the first time around I booked a appointment with the gynecologist and listened to what they had to say. So instead this was, All on me. So what I did during my entire pregnancy was I watched free birth videos. First of all I listened to free birth podcasts. I really intuitively listened to my body and. Really understood. If there was something wrong, then I would, you know, figure out what is going on with my nervous system. I confided in my chiropractor. The only person I saw throughout my pregnancy was my chiropractor. I didn't see anybody else. And I went to a lot of free birth classes. I just did a lot of inner work versus the first time around where I went to gynecologist appointments, I listened to, to my daughter's heartbeat, you know, all that stuff. This time I did not do any of that. No ultrasounds, no checks, cervical checks, nothing like that. I didn't let anybody touch my body. Did you get a lot of pushback from your family and friends? Like, especially I imagine your mother-in-law being a nurse that had to be a, a bit of a challenge to navigate? Yeah. We told them we surprised them back in 2021 with a visit to tell them that we were pregnant. One of the first questions I got from my mother-in-law was, are you gonna go see the same gynecologist as you had prior with, with Kaylyn, my daughter? And I said, actually, no, I'm not gonna see any gynecologist. We're gonna do a free birth. And you best believe that all the questions started swirling around the room. Like I felt like all eyes were on me cuz it wasn't just me. It wasn't just my mother-in-law and father-in-law. I think that his brother and. Wife were there too, so like them and the kids, like their kids and stuff like that. And so I immediately said to myself, I need to make sure that when I talk to any family member from now on, I need to have boundaries. Boundaries being you are not to talk about your opinions, your feelings. Towards my pregnancy because that's, that's your thoughts. I have the way that I wanna do it. And you have the way that, you know, you did it. I respect you, respect me. So I actually got a phone call like two weeks after I told my parents, cuz they live like three hours away, his parents and my parents. So we told them at the same time and my mother said, I feel like you are not thinking this through. I feel like you and the baby are going to die. Oh my gosh. That is, that is so deeply upsetting to hear, you know, and I feel like the place that she was coming from, I'm sure was out of concern and not from a malicious place, I hope. Yes. They don't realize just how much that sinks into your heart. You know, like, because it is a very alternative way to do things, you know, and you're definitely going against the norm when you sit there and you say, I'm gonna do this the way that I feel is right for me. Right. How did you react to that? How did you deal with those feelings and emotions that must have come up when you heard that? Well, I was really calm and cool and collected. Like I knew that this visit was coming. I was planning, I was internally preparing myself for the backlash. So I calmly was like, I respect your opinion. That's fine. I understand that you're afraid, but that's not how I feel. I said you're allowed to voice your opinion. It's fine with me, but I. I'm not going to listen to it because it's not my fear. That's your fear. And your fear. You're projecting your fears onto me, and that's not okay. And I said basically that we need to set some boundaries. I don't wanna talk about my pregnancy. I, I don't want, the only thing we can talk about is like how I'm feeling. So besides that, I wasn't gonna tell them anything else. Like, I wasn't gonna tell them about my birth pool that I just got, I wasn't gonna tell'em about any pre-birth classes or anything, like, anything like that, that I felt was going to receive negative feedback for. So during those nine months, I briefly talked to his parents and my parents, and that's how I liked it. I, I didn't want any sort of negativity. To come into my circle regarding my birth, cuz that's the way I wanted to birth. And I knew that I, deep down, I knew that I could, I have a free birth. I knew that I could do it. I just needed the confidence and to really keep talking to myself positively and keep talking to women who have birthed the same way and. Not be afraid of what could potentially happen. Absolutely. And you know, for me that was very, very similar. I, I actually chose not to tell anybody at all except for my sister. Cause I didn't want that backlash. And, you know, it's kind of sad that we have to think this way either. You have to be so mentally strong and prepared to come back at people with like, just this confidence, you know? Or you have to keep. Keep it to yourself and you can't really share as much of the excitement and joy that you really want to. Right. You know, but it is, it's really affirming when you connect with other women who have gone through the same experience. And I found my community through that, like, through other women who have free birth and like you said, through the podcast and through reading books and you know, it, they kind of became like a little second family sisterhood to me throughout my process and. You. It gives you so much confidence when you hear all of these wonderful, empowering stories and you're like, yeah, I can do this. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Did you have any support at all? Like, did anybody kind of change their tune and be like, all right, you know, she knows what she wants. Let's, we better just get on board and, help her out with this. I mean, my parents. They didn't ask any questions. After I set the boundaries. They kind of just like we talked about other things. My chiropractor was like my rock throughout the entire, throughout my entire pregnancy. I'd come to her if I was having issues. I, she introduced me to a few people that have free birth in the area and I listened to their birth stories but nobody besides my chiropractor, I really connected with. Cause I wanted to tell the world and you probably felt this way, but then again, I didn't because I knew that that would allow the negativity to. Come into my circle then I was trying to guard. It's, it's definitely a protective type of feeling that you get over yourself and your baby. You already have those hormones surging that. Make you more of a mama bear, but then that extra layer on top of just guarding yourself. It's, it's a really interesting shift. I think, you know, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I feel like it made me an entirely different person. Mm-hmm. As being able to stand up in general for what I want in life. It just solidified everything that I really want in myself. Did you feel that? Yes, absolutely. Like if. See, here's the thing about me. I am a very quiet, shy person that has always followed the leader. I've never been a leader myself. I am a people pleaser, and that's another thing. I felt like there was some healing that I needed to do internally in terms of my people pleasing habits. My mother, who obviously handed that down to me, Unfortunately not unknowingly was like, you don't know what you're doing. You are not thinking this through. Are you sure that you wanna birth this way? Normally I'd be like, oh crap, I'm disappointing my parents by not birthing the way that they want me to. Instead I said, I'm birthing this way whether you like it or not. And I think that that's the power that I wanted to have. And I knew that in order to obtain that, I needed to keep journaling, keep digging, keep doing the inner work in order to, you know, keep, keep the confidence flowing. Absolutely. I, I completely understand everything that you're saying with that. I'm curious, like, what did your prenatal care look like? I know you said you had a wild pregnancy did you do anything special that you felt like was really helpful for you in your preparation? I mean, most of it was just like chiropractic care. So I'd, I'd get adjusted every single week. My chiropractor was hosting these birth classes. It was called a dream birth series, so I did that throughout my whole pregnancy. Once a month I went and talked to a group of women and we discussed what our dream birth would be. So that really helped me kind of see and connect with other women that. Wanted to birth similarly or just confidently? My husband and I watched a bunch of birth videos and the Free Birth Society videos that they offered online. We purchased them and we watched them together just in case, you know, we wanted to have like a plan B plan. I mean, you never really know what's gonna happen, right? I needed to have a plan just in case anything went awry. Absolutely. I, I'm the same as you. I'm a major planner. Mm-hmm. I just like to know all of the facts and all of the details and all of the different options that there are. Knowledge is power. The, the more that you are able to absorb, the more that you can be. Extra confident in the decisions that you make, for yourself and for your baby. Did you do any I mean, it was just you and your husband at the birth right? Or did you have anybody there at all to help? No, I spoke to a doula, but I wanted her to come after the birth and help me clean up and help me make some meals and stuff like that. But that ended up falling through. Cuz my first thought was, maybe I need a support system besides my husband because I've never, obviously I, I didn't know what kind of state of mind I would be in. So I did speak to a few doulas regarding that to see if I wanted that. But it didn't really feel like, didn't feel right. I just felt like, no, I wanna do this on my own. Did you feel like it all came together? What did you feel like after the birth you know, did you feel like you were capable of gathering yourself and all of that? Or did you kind of regret not having the help? No, I mean, my, my birth was, was beautiful. My husband did a great job. Like I, he, like the first week was bliss. So no, I don't regret, I don't regret anything about it. That's amazing. So would love to hear your birth story, if you wanna share just a little bit about how it went and experience yeah, sure. So it was a Saturday. And I, I felt kind of off like we went grocery shopping. So it was my husband, my daughter, and I, and my daughter didn't take a nap. And, and the reason why I say that is you'll, as you hear me tell my story, you'll know why that's important, an important detail. And my dad actually text me that day and was like, I don't understand why we don't talk that much. I don't understand why we're not close. So there was that internally that I was dealing with. Feeling guilt on top of feeling like maybe there was something going on with my body, like maybe I was gonna give birth soon. So we got home and my husband was actually gonna be cooking brisket that night because the next day he was inviting his friend over for a barbecue. So we got home and I was just kind of feeling crampy and I put my daughter to sleep. Here's the thing about my daughter. She, so she cos sleeps with us, but we have a, we have a bed in our room, so she has her own bed. But she always crawls in bed with us every single night. And so I put her to sleep and I stayed with her for a while to see if she would, she would stay asleep. And I went downstairs and my husband and I watched a TV show. It was Tiger King actually. It was like the last episode anyway, so it's like it's like nine o'clock and I'm starting to feel like. Potential sensation, I'm gonna call them sensations, not really contractions, I guess. I'm starting to feel something and I say to my husband, I'm gonna go lay down upstairs just in case there's something that's going on. And I went and, and I could not lay down. I couldn't get comfortable. My husband was downstairs prepping the brisket. And I stayed up there for like an hour tossing and turning, and I started feeling like I couldn't, couldn't lay down because the cramps were so bad. And I came downstairs and I said it was probably like 10, 10 30. And I said, my husband's name is Brett. And I said, Brett, I think that I'm gonna have this baby tonight. And he is like, oh my gosh, well I need to cook this brisket. So he said, I'm gonna put the brisket on around 12. And I said, well, you better get some sleep before that. He's like, no, I can't put it on until then, cuz it's gonna be on all night. And I said, okay, well I'm just letting you know that some something's gonna happen. So I went back upstairs. Tried again, tried to relax, and then I started going to the bathroom like a few times and I'm like, maybe it's diarrhea from what I ate. I don't know what's going on with my body. And so, And then I tried to go back to bed again. And by this time it's probably like, I don't know, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock. And my husband gets in bed probably around that time and I'm like, I can't sleep. So I go downstairs and I think it's probably like one o'clock by this point. And I Google like, why am I going to the bathroom? And it said, it's an early sign of labor and then I lose my mucus plug and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is happening. So Were you excited? Were you nervous? I was so nervous, I didn't know what to expect. So what I did was I grabbed the, the ball, the bouncing ball in my garage and I brought it in the living room. And I started, I tried to listen to music, to kind of like tune out the sensations cuz they were coming on real strong and I could not listen to music. I had to just sit there and breathe through them. And I recall my chiropractor telling me that you need to surrender to the sensations. You can't, you can't, you know, push them away. You need to really just feel them. So I started doing that. And then around one 40 was when they got really like close together. And I text my husband cuz he said, well, let me know cuz let me know if there's anything going on. I'll ha I'll keep my phone on. So my, I text my husband, he didn't text me back. It was like 1 45. It was like, it's like been five minutes. So I had to, so I had a, I had a sensation. I ran upstairs, my husband's asleep. I shake him like, let's go. I'm in labor, right? You're like, hello, wake up. I ran downstairs before I had another one cuz I don't wanna have it while I'm like in the, you know, going down the stairs. Right. Not ideal location. So I get downstairs and he takes probably like 10 to 15 minutes to come down and I'm like, oh my gosh, please just get down here. So he comes down and he goes out back and I'm like, what is he doing? So he goes out back cuz he had started the fire cuz it's January. And the fire, he had the fire going earlier and he goes to grab more wood to keep the fire going cuz he thought it might be like, you know, A good setting for the birth. So anyway, I'm like, Brett, like I, I'm on the verge of like, you know, you're like, it's happening and he's just wandering around. Yeah. So anyway, he didn't know that I was so close. So he fills up the birth pool and Apparently there was something going on with the water. He had to connect it to we have a powder room downstairs and he had to connect it to the sink in the powder room, and he said it was leaking. So I hear him cursing in the other room and I'm like, oh my gosh, what's going on? And then he is coming in and telling me about it. Like, oh my gosh, leaking. And I'm like, sorry, but I really don't care. I'm. Labor. So another thing is our water heater is so small, so he could only put in a tiny bit of water at a time. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I hopped in the pool and there's a tiny bit in there and I have to literally squat, so I'm sitting on my butt and then I have my legs kind of curved, if that makes sense. And cuz you know, you don't wanna stand up when your, your baby pops out. So I'm sitting there like that and then, you know, all the sensations are coming and then it's another 15 minutes and he, puts the hot water on again. And then he's asking me questions. Is it too cold? Should I keep going? I'm like, Oh my gosh. Just whatever you think you know, like he's trying so hard to be helpful and you're like, Justin, do what you want. Right. I mean, you know, I appreciate him asking me. But at the same time he's like, well, let me go check the brisket. Are you okay here by yourself? And I'm like, Yes, I'm okay. Just, just go. And like I was the type to be like, do not touch me. I don't wanna be touched. I don't wanna be, bothered. You can sit there, that's fine. But I don't wanna be touched, some women wanna be caressed and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. You know, do you, do you but me? Nope. So anyway, so 30 minutes goes by and, and his head pops out really quick. And, and I could feel the sack. Oh, so he was still in the bag of waters. Yeah. And I heard later on that actually that cuz he was, he was his head was out for a long time, probably about like almost two hours. So somebody told me later on, oh my gosh, that's not good. You, you might have had a, a huge disaster on your hands. I don't know if that's true or not. I feel like every baby comes in the timing and in the way that they're supposed to. And there's so many different variations of normal, and I feel like, if it was going to be something bad, you would've intuitively known. You know what I mean? So I feel like when it's somebody, or when the baby is in call like that, or with a breach birth and things like that, some, sometimes it just takes a longer time and you gotta let everything flow naturally the way that it comes without the panicking, so that you can actually pay attention to whether something is wrong or something is not wrong, so how did you, how did you feel about it in that moment that it was taking so long? Well, I thought the minute that his head dropped, he would probably come out. Well, I didn't know it was a he, but I'm saying he now. I thought, okay, well there's his head, so he is gonna come out within a few minutes. And honestly, at one point I said, oh my God, is he stuck? Because he would not come out like, I kept, and here's another thing I did during the my sensations. I would talk to him. I'd say, I love you baby. Let's do this together. We're working together. You can do it. I can do it. So affirmations to myself, reminding myself that I can do this. I was made to birth this way so I could feel him. Physically moving down my birth canal, which was crazy cuz obviously the first time around, what I did was push, push, push, push, pushed, so this time my body was literally pushing for me, I was doing, a little bit of pushing, but my body was also doing most of the work. So, which was, which was crazy, crazy in itself. So I'm there in the pool and my husband's also giving me some food. He was giving me some oatmeal balls and then I was asking for water. Also, at one point I said to my husband, I can't do this. This hurts so bad and I am so exhausted. And he just listened to me. He just stood there and listened. I mean, what was he gonna say? What he gonna do? What do you think shifted that, finally your baby was born after two hours. Did you move and change positions or did you have to work through some emotions? Do you feel like that was maybe what was holding it back? Well, I tried to sit up, my husband tried to help me sit up, but it hurt so bad that I had to go back into the same position. I feel like It was a mind thing. I was exhausted because I had been sitting in the pool for an hour and a half on and off having sensations, and they, some of them were beautiful and some of them really hurt. And I guess I, I was envisioning. The end result in having a beautiful baby born in the water and being proud of myself. I guess that's kind of what I was really thinking about, like almost like the end of the run, so how did you feel when your little one was finally born? Did you look to see if it was a boy or girl right away? Or did you just kinda relax and say, holy shit, okay. I knew it was a boy, to be honest. Like, he came, he was floating in the water and I, and I had my husband catch him actually cuz I was exhausted. And the first thing my husband said was, oh my gosh, it must be a girl cuz she has a lot of hair. And I, I knew that it was a boy immediately. As soon as he came out, I also knew. I also kind of felt like it was a boy because the pregnancies were different. Like he was really aggressive with his kicks and whenever, I would sit in certain positions, he was not happy. My daughter was just kind of like, kick, kick, kick, no big deal. But he was like, you know, a boy, real, like hardcore about stuff. That's funny. Yeah. And also like everybody around me was like, you're having a boy and it's funny cuz back when I was a teenager, I've always said, I want one boy and one girl. And I had one boy and one girl. How beautiful that is, that it plays into what you wished for, yeah. I mean, I, I was. Like when he came out, like I was so proud. So my husband lifted him up. He was having a little bit of trouble breathing just cuz I, my chiropractor told me that when you have a water birth, babies have a little bit of a hard time adjusting from water to to land. So my husband kind of was helping him breathe. So he, he just, he put his mouth over his nose and tried to help him breathe. But it didn't last very long. He was fine. And then I got out of the pool and my husband set up blankets on the floor for me to get out. I had my son on me and then You have to birth the placenta. I wanted to try to do it just naturally, like let it come out. But it hurt worse than birth. So, so I just, I birthed it. My husband was in the kitchen. My husband came back in the living room and there it was, and so my daughter that I was telling you about earlier, Slept the entire night. She did not wake up once, and it's crazy. I mean, I wasn't loud and it wasn't because she was sleeping, it was because that's just how I birth I guess it's more of processing what's happening internally and breathing through it and closing my eyes during every sensation to visualize myself, seeing myself in retrospect. Did you, cut the cord right away? Did you wait a while? Did you do a lotus birth? We waited. We waited until it basically died off. And my husband actually made me placenta smoothies. What do you think of them? Were they delicious? They were, cuz I couldn't taste anything. Like he put a lot of fruit in there. And, Honestly, I can tell you that. So you were talking about like the comparisons of my first and my second. One of the things I noticed during my second is that I recovered a lot quicker. My bleeding was a week versus probably six weeks for my first I noticed I had more energy for my second because of, I think it's cuz of the placenta smoothies too, my husband I also was in bed, so I did a seven day bed, rest he would make me breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And he'd bring it upstairs and I just laid in bed with my son. How nice. Your queen's chambers. Yeah. Yeah. And he would make me a smoothie every single day. So that gave, it really does help it. it's amazing the difference that you feel, right? It, it really was night and day. And also I found myself being able to move around a little bit more. And I also, the first time around my daughter had a terrible lip and tongue tie. And so one of my fears that I had to work through during my second pregnancy was my son having one too. And so, my fear was when he latched, I wouldn't be able to breastfeed him, but he latched and he, he did have one, but it wasn't as painful as my daughter and I we're. We actually had a successful breastfeeding journey and we're still, we're still on our journey right now, 16 months in. That's awesome. So I'm curious as we kind of wrap up a little bit, what would your advice be to any mamas that are seeking this path of free birth? I would probably say do a lot of internal work. So journaling, meditation, yoga, speak to different women who have had similar births, whether it's a home birth or a free birth. Make sure that you have a support system behind you. And I would suggest also chiropractic care, cuz I feel like that definitely helped me getting adjusted every single week. It's really supposed to improve, the duration of your your birth, it's supposed to shorten it. And also make sure that you have a supportive partner and just make sure that you don't listen to all of the noise on the outside. And last thing is make sure you have boundaries around what you wanna talk about. In terms of your birth, that's very good advice. And I know you work with pregnant women and whatnot, so how can somebody reach you if they're interested in talking with you about working together? Sure. So I have an Instagram, it's underscore a dash of Hope. And then I'm also on TikTok I'll include your information in the bio as well for anybody that wants some easy access. Thank you all for being here with us today. If you would like to further discuss this topic, or if you're ready to begin a healing journey of your own, I am here for you through the link in our show notes or through Instagram at live. Your legend, If you'd like to get your hands on a copy of Women of the Wild, you can find a link for that in the show notes or on my Instagram as well, or simply just pop over to Amazon and type women of the Wild into the search bar. It's positively full of amazing firsthand birth stories and birthing prep wisdom from women all over the world, and definitely worth the read if you're exploring the ideas of free birth or home birth. love and gratitude til Tuesday.