S1E19: An employment lawyer talks about the ins and outs of leaving a toxic workplace - Nance Schick

Welcome to "Let's Break Up - Toxic Workplace Stories," the podcast where hosts Nicola and Gina delve into the dark underbelly of toxic workplaces, bringing you eye-opening conversations and expert advice to empower individuals like you.

In this episode, we have a very special guest, Nance Schick, an esteemed employment lawyer with years of experience tackling workplace issues head-on. Nance joins us to shed light on the toxic workplace where Nicola and Gina met, sharing invaluable insights on how they overcame the challenges and turned their experiences into a thriving podcast.

Discover the secrets to identifying toxic work environments, learn effective strategies to navigate through difficult situations, and find inspiration in real stories of triumph over adversity. From backstabbing colleagues and oppressive managers to toxic corporate cultures, "Let's Break Up" fearlessly explores it all.

Join Nicola, Gina, and Nance as they unravel the complexities of toxic workplaces and provide practical advice to help you regain control of your career and well-being. Whether you're currently trapped in a toxic work environment or simply seeking knowledge on this prevalent issue, this podcast is your guide to a healthier, happier professional life.

Subscribe now and hit the notification bell to stay updated on each episode of "Let's Break Up - Toxic Workplace Stories." Don't forget to like, share, and leave a comment to join the conversation. It's time to break free from toxic workplaces and reclaim your power!

🎧 Watch the full episode:
https://youtu.be/-It-4y1nVU4

Transcript

Gina: 0:00

This podcast may contain adult themes.

Nicola: 0:03

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Gina: 0:06

The views and opinions in this podcast are expressly are what I get to the workplace. I like to fuck shit up. Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it not that way. Hey,

Nicola: 0:21

are you tired of toxic workplaces and the negativity that comes with them,

Gina: 0:25

we hear you and we're here to shake things up. Welcome to Let's break up toxic workplace stories, the podcast that's all about breaking up with workplace toxicity.

Nicola: 0:35

I'm Nicola and I'm here with my co host Gina. Together, we're going to explore real life experiences of workplace toxicity and offer a sense of encouragement and unity.

Gina: 0:45

That's right or tackling the tough topic of negativity in the workplace.

Nicola: 0:50

So join us each week as we explore the various forms of toxicity in the workplace. We'll be interviewing guests to share their experiences and offer practical solutions for dealing with workplace toxicity.

Gina: 1:02

Let's break up is quickly becoming the go to source for anyone looking to share and then ditch the drama and help you break up with those toxic workplaces. Thanks for tuning in. And don't forget to like, subscribe and tell all your friends

Nicola: 1:16

in this week's episode.

Gina: 1:20

Okay, so Oh, Nancy

Nicola: 1:22

is already here. Okay, hold on, before we get started, this is going to be the most fascinating interview I think we're doing and fascinating thing for us, not for anyone else.

Gina: 1:36

No, it's gonna be totally fascinating for everyone, including our, our

Nicola: 1:43

listener, but our avid listeners,

Gina: 1:46

I just think that it's gonna be interesting. I think this

Nicola: 1:50

is going to be I think this might be my favourite episode that we've got coming up, because I think I'm most excited about the topic. And you know, from her

Gina: 1:59

vetting, she seemed like really like onpoint. And she wanted to do her research. So I'm very excited to let her in now. Are you ready? Morning? Hello. It's actually whichever. That's true.

Nicola: 2:18

That's true. I keep I keep forgetting and now that it's daylight savings as well. Now we've gotten even further apart in time and difference,

Nance: 2:25

right. And I'm I've been I've been mesmerised because I've got all the news helicopters flying around outside my window because of Trump Trump indictment.

Gina: 2:36

Where Where do you live? Are you in? DD?

Nance: 2:42

I'm in I'm in Midtown. And I guess he'll be coming from Oh, okay. From tower down. And so so I've been I've because all of a sudden, I was like, What is going on? And then I was like, Oh, right. That's today. So they're buzzing all over the place.

Gina: 2:57

Right. So they probably want to see I'm like leaving is place of residence. And then

Nance: 3:04

yeah, you know, you know, because it'll be live the whole time. You know, from nothing to Hey, live. We're reporting about nothing. We don't know anything yet.

Gina: 3:17

I know. I mean, I don't think we'll post any of this but like, but what we can ask you, we can

Nicola: 3:23

ask you about a tonne of other cool stuff.

Nance: 3:25

Yeah. So

Gina: 3:27

it sounds weird. It sounds like you did like you were like so awesome that you like waited and did some like research and deep diving. And that's amazing. And I can't wait to hear this.

Nance: 3:39

Yeah, I watched the two the two episodes you wanted me to then I've watched some others. I took some notes based on the structure of the podcast. I look, I want to do a good job for you.

Nicola: 3:50

Thanks. So excited. Well, would you like to introduce yourself?

Gina: 3:54

Yes. Let's introduce you first.

Nance: 3:56

Okay, so you want me to introduce myself? Yeah, it's gonna give us

Nicola: 4:02

a could do a chat. GPT

Gina: 4:04

Oh, my God. I could

Nicola: 4:07

I feel like it's it's hypnosis at the moment.

Nance: 4:12

It is. I asked him to write my bio, and it didn't do a great job. But some of that is because it's only current through September 2021. I don't know if you knew that. Because it's not real time information. So it's not like it'll go out to my website and pull information off. Right,

Nicola: 4:28

right. Okay, okay. Well, then. Okay. So you got to write your bio.

Gina: 4:33

Yeah. However, it was not accurate. So what why don't you just save some stuff up? Who you are, what you're doing? Why you want to see on the podcast. Tell us as much as you want or as little as you want.

Nance: 4:47

All right, so. So I'm Nancy Schick. I am an employment attorney and mediator. I'm based in New York City. I work with primarily employers on resolving workplace dispute. before they get to court, so it's it's also sometimes where the employees will come to me and say, I'd like to approach my employer about certain things, but I don't know how. And then other times, it's the supervisors or the business owners that come to me. So I, you know, as a mediator, I'm a neutral. So I work on kind of both sides and I and look, ice, I see it from the human perspective. And that's why I take the holistic approach is, I know that look, work is stressful for most of us, very few of us have jobs that aren't stressful at times, right. And what we know from psychology is when our are in emotions get high, you know, our our ability to access our intelligence and the tools that we might use to resolve conflict, we kind of disconnect from them. So my job is to bring people down to a level where they can take action again. So that's pretty much what I do is mediator, an attorney, and, you know, obviously, with the the view of the legal aspects of whichever action you take, based on the role that you're

Gina: 6:02

in. Okay, so do you want to give us maybe a concrete example, one from the employee side, one from the employer side of something that you've worked on, and then we can get into our specifics? Because I know, in our vetting, we were kind of sharing some ideas that possibly this company didn't do things, quite legally, especially in Nicholas case. So let's start with a couple of examples, not involving us so that our listeners kind of understand in real, like, in a real tangible way and anecdotal way.

Nance: 6:42

You know, so I think, you know, I can, I can use some very current ones that come up from the employee side, the where, you know, COVID brought some some various issues coming forward, for example, something that I saw a lot of was the accommodations, religious accommodations for the vaccine when we had mandatory vaccines in the United States, and the employers having to balance that, because there was definitely an opportunity for people to raise either a religious exemption or a medical exemption to the vaccine, and employers weren't always prepared for that. So I think that's where I see consistently from the employee standpoint, is, a lot of times the employers that they're working with, have these kind of blanket policies, and they don't understand how to navigate the exceptions that are going to occur. And that's one of the things as a lawyer I'm constantly working with employers on is there's pretty much always an exception to every law,

Gina: 7:49

of course, right? Like, that's why there should be like contingency plans, right? Like, okay, if you don't want to get the vaccine, then are you okay to get tested every two weeks or whatever? Something like that, like something where you meet in the middle?

Nance: 8:07

Exactly. And I think you will, I know, I know a little bit about your story. And and I think you will, can see that. The other thing that happens a lot of times is that employers stack employees was so much work. But then anytime the exception comes up, the people that have to deal with the exception, just want it over. And so they'll make a kind of knee jerk decision, right? The Snap Judgement, that often will land them in hot water that because it's unfair, right? It's like it gets something out of their office and off of their plate, but it creates a whole host of problems for everybody else, and can cause people to leave.

Gina: 8:50

Mm hmm. Absolutely. For sure.

Nicola: 8:54

I think, you know, especially around mediation, I think the work that you do there is is critical, right? Because it's so difficult to maintain. And, you know, find someone that can maintain that really good balance of here are the employers needs, and these are the employees needs. And he is where I'm standing on this middle ground to not to not kind of put fuel on the fire for either side. How do you feel? How do you feel some of your training has kind of put you into that position to be able to best decipher or navigate that kind of balance between the two.

Nance: 9:37

So one of the things that I have to work on constantly, right, and I know this because of the training and having the awareness of it is just recognising that I'm constantly doing this too, right. I'm my brain wants to judge because that's how the human brain works. Right? And I have to go, okay, I get that you're wanting to make this decision, but Right. And so I have a whole system that you know, I put in my book and that I use in my, in my practice, that helps me do that so that I can kind of keep myself in check. And I think that's what I'm getting at what I even mentioned with those, you know, those snap decisions, it's about slowing people down. But any we've all we all know that how many times we've been taught that since we were kids, like count to 10. Right. But when you're upset, that's fine. But if you don't know what to do when you get to the number 10.

Gina: 10:32

Okay, your point, yeah, you're calmer, but

Nance: 10:36

you still don't know what to do. So you might just take the wrong action in a calmer way. Right, so, so I have the training that helps people like move to the next step. And so it's, it's about looking, you know, one of the one of the favourite favourite exercises that I give that I get a lot of good feedback on is, when you're in conflict with somebody at work, one of the first things I'll have people do is go in and make a list of 10 things that you think that other person contributes to the workplace, why were they hired? Right? What do you think? What do you think their job is about? Why do you think they were hired to fill that job? If you were the one that hired them? Why did you hire them? Right, because we have this tendency to like demonise the other side when we're feeling upset about the about our circumstances. And then we forget that that's a human being on the other side, and just like we make mistakes, and we want to be given a little leeway to correct them, we forget that the other person is human too. So I rehumanize that situation, and then we start talking about, okay, now that you remember, that's a human being on the other side, let's look at what those objective goals were, you know, what was it that you came together to create? And why aren't you moving in that direction? And then we, you know, because when you start taking that emotion out of it, and you can focus in on a very objective problem, like that's why we have KPIs, and we have various measurements, right? It's so that we can see progress. And I try to do that even within a conflict situation.

Nicola: 12:18

But that makes sense, though, right? You want to you want to make sure that you're still kind of seeing eye to try and let you know that outside of the mediation, you kind of get to a point where you can actually have a civil or working relationship. Obviously, normally you don't. That's not happening, but in a beautiful world of unicorns and rainbows.

Nance: 12:40

And it's true, and you have to have like, once one of the things that we tell people all the time is like, look, mediation is voluntary. And I have walked away from mediations before because it was clear that one of the parties was just adamant that they had to be right.

Gina: 12:56

Yeah, I was gonna say, right, like, more or less coming to a compromise where you're meeting in the middle, right? So it's like, if one party is already like dead set that they're not going to budge. There's not much a mediator can do. Right? Yeah. Right. Like

Nance: 13:16

if you're, if you've already decided that that other person is an absolute demon with no redeeming qualities, and that there's no way that you're going to be able to find anything that you can do together in your work situation. Like you've already kind of quit, right? Yeah. Why are we talking about it? Right?

Gina: 13:35

I have people not in my work. Really, not really with work. But I have people in my personal life in the past that I'm like, and they're there's no redeeming quality. They are a waste of flesh. I get it. Yeah.

Nance: 13:51

And look, they're they're also like, people in my life. And I think we might have even talked about this in our first chat is, look, I have people in my life who I still love, but I say I love them from afar. Yeah, right. Because I can't have them in my orbit. We just we don't work well together. And that's right. Hey, I don't need them to die. I just don't need to have them to close to me and in my day to day because they just my life.

Gina: 14:20

Yeah, agreed. Totally. Okay, so now that we have a better understanding, do you actually even do you actually ever go to litigation? is my question.

Nance: 14:33

I do still a little bit. It's not my preferred method of conflict resolution, but I do still litigate. I've been litigating since the beginning. And you may or may not remember this that I've been a plaintiff in an employment situation. So I have experienced employment law as an HR supervisor, as an attorney as a plaintiff as defence counsel. So, as a mediator, the only thing I really haven't done is been a judge. But I do I do serve as an arbitrator for FINRA, the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority. And so I do occasionally kind of serve in sort of a judge role on a panel.

Gina: 15:19

Now, why were you a plaintiff? Do you want to share about that? Because that was me. Oh, okay. Let's hear it.

Nance: 15:32

So, you know, because I thought you're gonna ask about toxic workplace story. There's like, Yeah, I think the one here is probably the one that I sued, although it's not the only one that I've ever been in. Right? Of course. Yeah. It's and I was on, it seems it

Nicola: 15:48

seems as though like, as we're going through this podcast in general, everybody. Well, obviously, everyone, we've spoken to. Everybody, once you get chatting to them about their workplaces, everybody seems to have a bloody toxic work. My story, like a person job blog on the street has got a bloody toxic workplace story, what is happening in society.

Gina: 16:13

So I was I actually had therapy this morning, which is why I'm so regulated right now. And we were talking about how quickly our pot podcast has kind of like, started doing stuff like we thought it wasn't going to do. And I was like, I thought everyone talks about, like, their bad workplace experiences. And my therapist was like, they might like internally, like maybe to their friends and family, but they don't label it toxic, and they don't ever bring it up at the workplace for fear of retaliation. Right? And she was like, you might be able to get away with it. If you're like a big money maker, or like C suite where you're identifying a problem, but mostly, like the people who are workers among workers, which are the majority of us. You know, we're, it's like a touchy topic. Do you bring it up? Do you leave? And there's all those things that go with it. So tell us what happened with your toxic workplace?

Nance: 17:16

Yeah. So and I also want to, like piggyback on what you were just talking about, like one of the reasons I can talk so freely about this now. I mean, one, it's public record in the state where I filed it, right? One thing, so you could go look it up, right, but But I it's not like I openly talked about it, when I was still working for other people. Part of the reason I can do it now is I work for myself and I work in this space. So I completely get what you're talking about is PA are afraid of, you know, there's still a stigma as much as we'd like to think that you can you can assert your rights at one employer and not carry forward in another. Right? Like they, they might look you up, right, just like they're gonna look at your social media profiles. And they, you might not know why they didn't call you for an interview. But it might be that they found out for example, for me, that I had been a plaintiff in an employment law lawsuit.

Gina: 18:14

So are you the single plaintiff, or were there other people,

Nance: 18:18

I was I was working for a small employer, in a I guess I may as well be as relatively public, I'm careful, because, you know, in one way, it's been a long time ago, it was in the 90s. I was working in the sport industry. And I was working in a basically a C suite, but in a tiny, tiny, you know, team, and, and with multiple owners. And let's just say I left a really good job, even though the sport industry has a chair. And still to this day, many years later, we're still hearing a lot about sexual harassment, sex, discrimination, racism, et cetera, in that industry in particular. And I had come out of HR, so I was a little bit you know, I worked at United Parcel Service and human resources. So I got amazing training, and then I, I was getting my degree in sport. So I said, I should go work in it took a job with this team, and it turned out to be, you know, my dream job turned out a little bit like a nightmare for me. And, you know, and in retrospect, I can also, you know, the mediator and me can see where I contributed, because I didn't know how to handle things, which I know we're gonna get to, right. It's like, what are some of the tips and, and so I can see where I had some expectations that, for example, that, Oh, we don't have sex discrimination and sexual harassment in the workplace.

Gina: 19:54

Right, like, that's what she thought. But in the 90s I mean, I was in corporate In America in the early 2000s, which is not far off, and it was still somewhat acceptable, I was sexually harassed by my boss at a small company. And it was somewhat culturally acceptable. I found it unacceptable. Other women found it unacceptable. But, you know, in the culture and design in the zeitgeist, it was still somewhat acceptable, which is like, now that I think about it, right? Because we we've come so far, but yeah, anyway, so So you expected them to treat you like just a human, like a smart human who could do the job. And then they were like, did the current

Nicola: 20:44

boys currently?

Gina: 20:46

Wait? Does the rug match the drapes? Or the current? What is it curtains?

Nance: 20:50

Like that? Yeah, I don't like that. But yeah, it was, you know,

Gina: 20:55

or they'll be like, your, your boobs look really perky today? Or how do you stay so thin? or SAS? Yeah. Yeah. Or something?

Nance: 21:06

Or, you know, really what? It was more subtle? In this environment, I think. Yeah. Makes sense. And, you know, because I did have a high level position. I, what I observed more on the sexual harassment was, you know, it was the subtle putting their arms around you, you know, coming behind you to look over your shoulder for the you know, to see what you're working on, or the computer

Gina: 21:33

in or like guiding, or the door like, what's on the small Yeah. And

Nicola: 21:39

for me, if you're coming up cars, and looking over my shoulder on my screen, for me, personally, that's worse for me than if you were to give him a Boob squeeze.

Gina: 21:56

You might be right, like,

Nicola: 21:58

I freaked me out so bad, if you like, I can't, like I can't, like actually just even thinking about it makes me because it's like

Gina: 22:07

me no, like, I'm in predatory kind of writing because it's like, you're, you're trapped. Yeah, like they're over you, you can't really do too much about,

Nicola: 22:20

grab a beer for five. Not great.

Nance: 22:23

Don't grab a boob, either the lawyer or

Gina: 22:28

someone in the workplace, unless it's like a mutual, but you bring your genders.

Nance: 22:35

And I'm glad you you kind of hit on this. Because it's, you know, one of the other things is, we forget that sexual harassment is in and in even sexual assault is more about control. And so what you're talking about is also like, yeah, somebody's joking around, they maybe touch you in a way that's playful, is a completely different experience than if they're hovering or, you know, somehow taking up your space. And if they're larger than you, right, you do feel that dominance in your space. And it is, and that was another thing, like, you know, things that I still even say to the Bar Association's that, you know, we know we have issues, for example, with alcoholism in the profession. And yet, we still have a lot of meetings with open bars. And that was the experience I even had at this particular team is you know, obviously, you're trying to get people to come I get it, we have our conferences, but look, the you got a lot of people that maybe don't manage their alcohol consumption well, and you're putting them all in a space that's very, to coin the you know, to coin a phrase that gets thrown around all the time, the toxic masculinity kind of environment of of sport. I saw that that's what I was in, but I still was naive enough to think that I could make a difference there.

Gina: 24:07

Right. So So did you leave and then sue them? Or did was there one incident that happened that you were like, That's fucking it and I'm suing now?

Nance: 24:19

Yeah, so I actually have a video out and where I tell a little bit about the story, but But it's okay. It's good. I'll you know, but I talk about how I didn't want to sue. What happened was I was let go right. And then when I when I went to get my back wages, you know, the my Commission's and things that they owed me, I just wanted enough money. Because, you know, I didn't expect severance or anything like that. I just wanted enough money because I'd moved halfway across the country. Right, uprooted my life left good jobs, left my family and was living in this small town in Texas and I just wanted enough to get me To my

Gina: 25:01

toxic workplaces start in Texas. What are ours was Texas. So I mean, yeah, yeah. So it's like what the fuck? What? What just

Nicola: 25:18

isn't waco in Texas as well? Yes.

Gina: 25:23

Drinking the tap water, Texas. And it's really interesting

Nance: 25:26

that you said waco because I was just a little bit south of Waco. Oh funny, but it was it was great. So I just wanted a little bit I called the Wage and Hour Division, because I just wanted to collect what I was owed. You know, I was like that would get me a little runway, I'm a hustler, I'll go get me my next thing, you know, wasn't that worried about it? I got on the phone with the government. And this is what I tell clients all the time, this is what's going to happen. Your employer is going to call for assistance from the government. And the government is going to listen, and they're going to ask them questions. And they're going to find out if you did anything other than what they called for. Right? They're going to find out and they're going to do what they did with me. And they encouraged me to file a claim. Well, it was it was wage an hour. So it wasn't unemployment, although later that was another thing that caused the lawsuit was then they blocked my unemployment. Right. So they were like Not, not only were they like, withholding my some of my earnings, then just out of the vindictiveness of it all, blocked my unemployment. It was awful, I lost. You know, I lost one of my closest friends that I had worked with there because he had to testify against me and I had to testify against him. And I talked, I ended up talking about things that I probably would never have talked about. But once I got an attorney, right, the attorney starts fleshing out the case, because that's what we're trained to do. And we you assert every possible claim that you think you can prove. It wasn't an I was young, so I completely deferred to my attorney. In retrospect, I might have done things a little bit differently, had I, you know, been who I am today. And maybe I want to preserve some relationships that I've repaired at this point, right? We're cool. Not as close as we were when we when we were living in the same town. But right, you kind of see right? Why would you why would

Gina: 27:25

I want to live in Texas at this point. Anyway, Nancy?

Nance: 27:29

It's true. I'm in New York City. I went right.

Gina: 27:32

Why would you want to live anywhere else? So

Nance: 27:34

you crazy. Paris or London or Berlin? I ended up winning a default judgement that I was never able to collect a penny. I hate that shit. Well, they fled the country. They fled the country on

Gina: 27:54

everything. Actual harassment, friendships being shattered.

Nicola: 28:02

Like court cases,

Gina: 28:04

it's got everything. How much were you supposed supposed to get? Which we know you got zero. But how much were you supposed

Nance: 28:10

to get? $90,000

Gina: 28:13

Not bad. And like the 90s. That's probably that was good.

Nance: 28:16

That was really good money that would have paid for my loss, my law licence, or you know, my law, my law? Yeah, it would have been paid for everything. And like you said, I got a really good education of being like, I didn't expect that. I knew I wanted to go to law school, which is one of the reasons I took the job in Texas, because I've been working for an organisation that had two teams, and I was working baseball and hockey, and they would overlap. So I was working year round and never had an offseason. So this was a chance to work in hockey, and then maybe go to law school in the summers. I didn't know I wouldn't be going to law school learning the learning about civil procedure, both in the classroom and in the courtroom simultaneously.

Nicola: 28:59

That's one way to learn. That's, that's one way to get right into your education.

Nance: 29:04

Exactly. And that's how I ended up you know, kind of ending going into mediation is because I saw all the possibilities of the process, being friendlier and building, you know, keeping those relationships together. Yeah, they had they just talked to me about what I was really looking for. I wouldn't have been looking for $90,000

Gina: 29:27

You're just telling you, you might get on a commission. Yeah, like it's not that big of a deal. Like there. Anytime you you're, you have a salaried employee, you're you're already paying into unemployment insurance. So it's really it has nothing to do with them. Like maybe the unemployment insurance will go up by like 10 cents the next year, but it's like, it's not even a significant amount to deny someone unemployment because you're already like they're already paying into it. So it's so like, ludicrous that they would have done that. So two follow up questions. Oh, is the people who fled the country? Do you know where they are right now? I never bothered

Nance: 30:07

to look to be honest, you know that so far? Yeah, um, no, I'm, I'm assuming they're still, you know, out of the country running their next business or probably even invested in some other teams, probably businesses and doing lots of different things. Right.

Gina: 30:27

Then my my question is, what did you get let go for? And did you agree with the reason?

Nance: 30:36

That's a That's a tough one. Yeah. You know, if you were to ask me this back during the, during the beginning, I might have said, they were, they set me up, and I still kind of feel like they did set me up. The team that I worked for was still partially owned by the League. They were it was a brand new league. And we had like 13 owners, and some of them were trying to remove one of the other ones from the day to day control. So they asked me to help them basically with the vote help, you know, so I was going around talking lobbied

Gina: 31:16

you to vote to move him out. Okay.

Nance: 31:20

Yeah. And then when I gave what they told me to do, being that they were owners, and therefore my bosses, but not all of them, right. So basically, when I did what they told me to do, they fired me.

Gina: 31:35

You think that do you think that was to appease some other owners?

Nance: 31:40

Like? Yeah, what I what I later found out was that, you know, the league didn't want to continue owning, of course, when we hit our first game, right? They wanted the plan was to hold it until they found somebody to take to buy out their shares. But they wanted to get the league moving. And the owner, from what I understand, I don't know, this is again, you know, kind of secondhand information, but the the new owners that were coming in, had a son who wanted my job. So awkward, right? Because I kept asking from, like, the day two or so of when I arrived, like, where's my employment contract that you all promised me, and they kept delaying and delaying and delaying. But, you know, even then, before I went to law school, I knew that I that there's still something called a spoken contract, even if it's not memorialised in writing. So I kept going, like, it's gonna be better for us to have it in writing, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't fatal to my claims for the agreement being breached. So that was the other part of it, as it was a you know, that's how cases go, is it starts with maybe wage an hour, and then it becomes breach of contract, also sexual harassment, sex, discrimination, etc. And you basically put everything in as multiple causes of actions in the same in the same lawsuit. And that's what started to roll out. So as you piece things together, you start to realise that there was a lot more going on than you knew, as I'm sure you all experienced.

Gina: 33:19

Now that we know more about you, can you tell us your thoughts on we, what we discussed in our first few episodes?

Nance: 33:29

So yeah, where do you want to start? In particular,

Nicola: 33:31

you tell us your notes.

Gina: 33:39

Let's start from the top.

Nicola: 33:41

Let's start from the top, what have you got?

Nance: 33:44

So, you know, I look at kind of where you all started, the first thing that was a red flag for me, I'll be honest, was when you have these people that kind of start as contractors and then move into an employment setting. Right, like basically doing the exact same job, that's always a red flag for me. Right? That tells me that this is a workplace, at least in New York, in New York State, that's a workplace that isn't really clear on what those boundaries are of, you know, how to how to properly classify someone, because you it's not about just flipping a switch, right, and putting a different label on it. Right? It's like, it's it's like there are very specific legal criteria that determine who's an employee versus an independent contractor. So that was one of the first things that I said, Ooh, that's interesting. But I also understand that that your employer had been based in Texas and I don't want to accuse anyone of anything because I don't know Texas law. When I was there, it was many, many years ago, right. And lots of lots of things have changed. And I also know that New York is more employer friendly than a lot of other states, especially Texas.

Nicola: 34:59

Is that So York and California I think is are they very employer friendly? Yeah.

Nance: 35:05

Yeah. So usually, my colleagues in in New York, New Jersey, California, Illinois, somewhat because of Chicago, a lot of a lot of places that have highly concentrated metropolitan areas tend to lean a little bit more in in those directions. And I can't, you know, say that that's going to be certain. But I think you even see that globally that right, like you see, London, you see Berlin, you see Parris, which are even more even more employee friendly,

Gina: 35:42

very employee, employee friendly,

Nance: 35:45

if you're creating exceptions for the wrong reasons, like cronyism or money, right, and only making it on those decisions, then you're going to end up with people who feel justified in breaking the rules. Right, right. And I think that's what we see is so even though we have strong employee protections, especially especially in New York, in New York City, you also have a lot of luck, you have a lot of people working here who are undocumented, who don't know their rights, who are afraid to assert their rights, because they are undocumented. So they are frequently abused by employers, as horrible. It

Nicola: 36:31

is horrible.

Nance: 36:32

It's, it's just, I, like I said, I see the humanity of all of this. And yet, I also see the middle managers who want to do the right thing, but they also need to keep their jobs, right. So they're, that's why they're middle, right? It's, then they're feeling pressure from both directions. And so that's what I try to work with people on is let's find some solutions to balance all of those interests, because you're always going to have competing interests, no system is going to be able to run itself. Right, right. You gotta have human beings to run it and human beings were a little messed up.

Gina: 37:13

You don't say, okay, so what was your second red flag when you were listening? So it was the fact that Nicola was started, was technically a contractor, but was an part time, but was working full time, and really a full time employee. So

Nance: 37:30

So you know, and I have to, you know, throw in my disclaimer, again, that, you know, although I'm, you know, I'm I'm acknowledging some of the things that I would personally explore more deeply, I can't say how it would have played out. Because the the other thing, the other thing that comes in is one the employer was based in, in Texas, you were based in New Zealand, right? So most of the time, the laws that are going to apply, and I don't think employers already always know, this are the laws of the location of the employee,

Nicola: 38:04

which actually means because I know our employment law, because that's what I'm studying right now. Exactly. And I'll tell you what, as a very employee friendly, and if you are being essentially if you are being paid a consistent salary, essentially, the employer should be paying your tax your insurance, your, you know, your 401 and your equivalent of 401k. Like, there's a tonne of stuff that they should be doing. But your debt, you'd have kind of space to get in the claim as only 90 days. Wow, we're far beyond that at this point.

Gina: 38:49

Yeah. Yeah,

Nance: 38:51

yeah. And so that was that's definitely, you know, something that you're you're hitting on that I worked with a lot of employers on that after they've gotten gotten hit with a penalty, because they didn't realise that that person who's sitting in New York, even though you are based in where even another country, if your employee is here in New York, that employee is protected by New York law. Yeah. And if they're in New York City, they also have the protection of New York City Law. Right. And so a lot of employers don't know that. And they, you know, they set up and they expand, and then we saw that during the pandemic, people moved around, right. So, you know, now your, your employees who might have been in New York City said, Whoa, it's too expensive to live here. I'm gonna go live, you know, closer to my parents and Ohio. And now you're, your employee is governed by Ohio law. Right. So that's one of the things I saw that I would have been exploring more. I would have also looked at, you know, just some of the other things about the way that you're discharge was handled the like, look, when there's not a clear process that's, again, kind of compassionate. I usually know that that's an employer who either is very inexperienced with letting people go, and therefore, you know, likely to step in it. Right? And it's, you know, like, in one way, I want to say, that's normal, right? Nobody's good at something when they've never done it before. But you when you, you have to be aware of that, right? Like, if you're a new business, one of the things you need to start thinking about is where your weaknesses are. And don't assume that just because you hire someone, you're like, we're not robots. And even if you know, I know, you've been playing with chat DBT. So you know, that even the robot, you have to give it very specific instructions, Terry stuff, right to get the output that you want. So it's amazing to me that we forget that with human beings, or AI. And so I see that as like this. This kind of dehumanisation of employees that occurs in a lot of workplaces as though you are already robots. Like I'm going to hire somebody. I'm just going to throw all the stuff at them. And now I'm relieved. It doesn't work that way. I like to think about employment as a partnership toward mutually compatible goals. Right. And yet, we still function a lot in the world. A lot of workplaces is this like, please give me a job. Right? Like, like, we're little Oliver Twist. And please, you know, and yeah. And yet, like, that's not the way most employment works, right? Like Jeff Bezos would not be so wealthy without the employees who do the day to day work. But for some reason, we set up our society like, Oh, he did it all on his own. There is no freakin person on this earth. Who is self made? It's ridiculous, right? So I really work with employers on that, of like, you got to start looking at employees as part of the whole with respect, and I think we're moving in that direction. And I'm actually doing another nother podcast later in the month talking about AI and how it's going to change that and make people better.

Nicola: 42:43

And share chat. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. Fun. Chat. PC GBG.

Gina: 42:50

Yeah. All right. Good.

Nicola: 42:53

What is the chat be XYZ. What is it? GPC?

Gina: 42:58

CVB. So what was your next red flag with both Nicola and my departure story?

Nance: 43:07

And the other thing was this shocking, right? There was an employee theft. Yeah, right. There was an employee theft that was kind of glossed over. And you know, that's another thing like, Look, I get it, right. I as an as a business owner, myself, I had some I had an employee that stole from me, right didn't necessarily know how to handle it. Because when you're in a small environment, you do see the humanity, right. And there's kind of this shock that comes with it, too. Like you, you can't imagine that somebody that you know, that intimately would steal from you. Right. And I've, I've worked with employee employer clients that have had this situation too. But it was this, like, weird focus on that, and kind of the inability to overcome that for the purpose of the business, right? That's why I said, I work with people on trying to extract the emotion so that they can look objectively on what should happen in that situation. You can look as a business owner, not just for your business, you have to be able to assert yourself to protect the business. But when you gloss over those kinds of things, what message does that send to the rest of your workforce about their value? And what you expect from them, and it and it's that inconsistency? I think that was that that was

Gina: 44:34

because like, Nicola and myself fired when the girl who stole is most likely still there. Yeah. So like, where's the logic in any of that?

Nance: 44:45

Yeah, this this also, the CEO on the pedestal that you mentioned, what responsibility do you have to the people who are following you? Right? You have to you have to up your game. aim to be worthy of the kind of leadership. Otherwise you have the potential to lead people down dark, dark places.

Gina: 45:08

I think the biggest difference and I don't know, Nicola, if you would agree with me is that you and I are inherently self reflective, and we'll call ourselves out on our bullshit. Like, I'll be like, No, I absolutely overreacted. I absolutely said the wrong thing, like, apologise for it say, No, I was wrong, like, I have no problem admitting it. Where as the leader that we're all referring to, had no ounce of self reflection of ability, nothing, there was no ability to look inward and say, like, maybe I can do something different. Maybe I can do something better, maybe, you know, like, we just did this whole follow up thing with somebody, and they were like, it doesn't seem like the owner, CEO and COO took any accountability for anything. And that's it, they just would always point the finger, they would attempt to be like, Oh, no, that was my fault. But really, then they will go go around and talk to the person who they really thought there. It was their fault. So I think that's a big, big thing that changes that that like would differentiate someone like myself, from someone like our previous boss. Yeah.

Nance: 46:27

And that's a really good point, too, is I like that you're hitting on this balance with both consistency, right? Because in order to build trust, in someone who's who's leading us, we need to see some consistency in their behaviour, right. But in another way, we want to leave them room to grow, right, and become better. So you have to have that self reflection as well. And so one of the best ways to create consistency is by exhibiting self reflection, like not being, you know, self absorbed about it. And becoming, it's always about that, but being able to look more objectively at a situation and say what happened, right? And then, okay, here's how we're going to fix it going further. Forward. Here's my contribution, right? It's what I call that complete apology, of not just I'm sorry, but I'm sorry for blank. Or I acknowledge that this, you know, I did this, and it caused this result. And here's how we're going to make sure we don't end up with that result again, and here's how I'm going to do it. Right. This is my contribution. And I'm going to own this part of it. And what we, we see as a lot of people just you know, look at how many people go publicly after they've been outed on social media or whatever. And they come Oh, my God, my

Nicola: 47:52

sorry, button. Guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Nance: 47:56

Right. I'm so sorry. Right? And then you're like, do you need? Right, like, What are you sorry for the young man who assaulted me said I'm sorry. But I was like, for what are you sorry, you assaulted me? Are you sorry, you got caught?

Gina: 48:13

Right. And you and you don't know. And you

Nance: 48:16

don't write unless it's qualified by all those things? And then the behaviour consistently shave me? Yeah, a change. And so there were some of those things that it, it sounded like we weren't seeing. And, and we are not that as and it is that kind of, it's a classic thing that I see in businesses that kind of explode, where they have to put a bunch of people on quickly to handle the growth of the business and the opportunities, and they don't have the infrastructure. Right. And so that which

Nicola: 48:50

I think is the most frustrating thing for me in this whole instance, is I tried to put the infrastructure in and nobody listened to you. Nobody. Nobody was interested, because I was like, this is going to happen eventually. I didn't think it would happen to me, but I thought it would happen eventually. And put the infrastructure in to protect everybody that's involved.

Nance: 49:10

Usually a little bit of a red flag. It's it's awful to say this, but it's usually a client that I may end up having, right? Because they're going to end up having some sort of issues here. And they may they may have to come to someone like me unwillingness to evolve to hear to grow to come together. Like when you hear things like I know I made a I don't remember who said I'm not here to pet your mental health. That kind of thing of like, you know, not not necessarily Oh, and can't shine brighter than the CEO. Right? Like kind of this. Only certain people matter. That's usually a red flag for me, right is that that tells me that probably the employees are not being treated. really well, and are not being valued for their contribution to the whole. And that is just, it's a recipe for problems. It's a recipe for complaints. It suggests to me that, you know, a lot of the complaints that we note are underreported, or are probably going on in those workplaces, right? I

Gina: 50:23

don't think people were willing to say anything, because we just found out that this former employer found out about our podcast and then sent an email to certain individuals saying that or just disgruntled employees,

Nance: 50:38

there needs to be balance, right? Like you're you are a human being, even like, we don't even drive our cars all the time, right? We we let it rest, we take it in for maintenance. So it's like, why are we treating human beings less favourably than we treat our machines? Right. And so when I, when I heard that, I was like, That is a culture that doesn't, it doesn't produce the best results. And this is also from the standpoint of, we know, best practices. With employee relations, we know that there is no such thing as multitasking, your brain is flipping back and forth constantly at high speed. And you're not effective when you're doing that. So if your Slack is going off, non stop, while you're trying to work, whatever you're working on, even if you don't pick up that it's still distracting you, right? Your brain is like, Oops, disconnect. And it takes you right, so you're not getting the best work from your employees. It I can see it in myself. Right, if I'm not getting enough sleep, I used to think it was a you know, a badge of honour, right that I worked so many hours. Yeah, look at me, I'm so tough. And then I realised when I after I got assaulted, and I had to sleep more, right? Because I was recovering. I realised I got about the same amount of work done, because I was rested. Because I was taking care of myself. Right. And so I think that's another thing that, you know, I hear differently now, is, if you're not giving your employees time to balance their lives, you're not getting the best from them.

Gina: 52:26

No. So a couple of follow up questions from me. And then Nicola, you can have your follow up questions you mentioned a couple times getting assaulted, did that happen at a workplace?

Nance: 52:40

It did not. But it's a big, it's a big part of my story, because it changed the way that I work. And it changed my focus, it changed my head, it changed a lot of what I wanted to do, you know, I was still litigating a lot more at that point. And I realised that this was this was really what I wanted to be doing was getting in the middle and helping people resolve the conflicts before they get into court. Because I also believe, and I saw it after the assault is that once it gets into court, like you lose a certain degree of control. And, and, you know, basically, when you go to court, what you're saying is, I don't know how to handle this, I don't know how to resolve even

Gina: 53:28

a third party to tell me, tell

Nance: 53:31

me what I deserve. Right? Tell Tell me who's right and wrong. It's a very, you know, binary situation. Usually, it's a zero sum game, because one, one party wins, one party loses, right? And it ends up most people walk away even when they win, like I want a judgement, but it didn't want I didn't collect anything. And two, it didn't solve any.

Gina: 53:58

You can't collect on the judgement. Yeah, and

Nance: 54:01

you know, I can give the general answer on this as you would

Nicola: 54:05

pains.

Nance: 54:06

Yeah, it depends. But, but generally, it's, you would you would have to seek a judgement, that would seize their assets, right, you would have to go through the collections process. And again, it's gonna vary from state to state from country to

Gina: 54:24

Yeah. Okay. So what are your follow up questions if you have any Nicola? You know, I

Nicola: 54:29

think I think for me, I'm for sure. Curious to know what your, like general overall impression is of the workplace that we were at, because we've kind of gone into a couple of the specifics, but I'm curious to know what your overall impression is. And Would would you say that if you were employed there, what would you do to either get out safely, or, you know, look into kind of solution. and finding if you are still there.

Nance: 55:03

Yeah, I think the first thing that, you know, it goes back to my own experience as well, I was in a very small business, relatively new, right? I think I would have managed my expectations differently. So I'm going to start with, like, you know, from the beginning, when you're applying for a job, like, Don't ever forget that you're interviewing them for, you know, as well. That's one of the big things is, you know, again, we have we've been, at least I know, in my, my generation in this country, the way I was raised, it was, it was more of like, almost like a beauty contest. Right? Like, please, yes, award me something. Yeah, right. You know, award me with this job, please, please. Right. And I didn't always think of it as I have just as much that I'm bringing, right, it was more of like this, I'm trying to get approval is the way that I approached job search. So the first thing starts there is like, really getting clear on what you have to offer. And being strong on that, especially today, like you can you can work remotely. You know, and most people I mean, it depends, obviously, what your skills are. But but a lot of people can work remotely or independently and control more of their work situation. So starting there, and then making sure that with that confidence you're going in and being being the interviewer as well as the interviewee right? Because I suspect for myself, and maybe for you all, as well had I asked some different questions and had a different mindset about how I was going into that interview. I probably would have seen the holes earlier, right? I would have seen the holes in the boat really early.

Nicola: 57:04

Whereas Gina and got the holes on the boat, she got tonnes of

Gina: 57:09

Yeah,

Nicola: 57:10

I told you were what was happening.

Gina: 57:14

The everyone was like everyone in their own way was telling me, like, this company is fucked up. Without saying this company is fucked up. I think Nikola, you got the closest, but I still I was like, Oh, it's so cute. Like, nobody actually has real experience. Like, I didn't know yet. Like I was being set up as coming in with having the most experience and like, you know, whatever. So it was not only was I lied to, but like, within the first two weeks, I realised that the CEO and the CEO didn't really know what the fuck the product development department and was doing. They had, they were so disconnected. Either that or they were so busy micromanaging, they were like losing the bird's eye view, which you have to have, if you want your company to grow and, you know, move forward and have sustainability. So she might know about like, Okay, we're gonna be a few days late for this project. But she's not looking further ahead that we have to be working six months in advance not to you know, like, there was so many fundamental issues, and I should have left when I realised that like, when it became clear to me that the C suite didn't even know half the issues that were going on in my department, I should have been like, I'm out of here. Like, there's my ego because I'm like, Well, okay, I can fix it. Like they're not product development. They're not supply chain experts. That's why they hired me stupid me thinking that they actually actually valued me and my expertise. Right, right.

Nance: 58:49

That's, that's the that's also that mindset that we've been taught of like, you're bestowing something on me called a job. And it has this illusion of being valued, right? And then it does, I mean, look, it you all have marketing experience, you get it because you've been trained to kind of use some of that same psychology to get people to buy stuff. Right? So like, I have studied so much around this, also to be aware of how sometimes I'm being manipulated by the marketers to buy things I don't need. And so I think about that in the job context as well, that things I would have done differently if I were in your shoes and probably because again, I see our experiences very similar. Had I recognise that the people in leadership had almost no experience running this type of business, right?

Gina: 59:47

Or have any corporate experience period ever the end art stuff

Nance: 59:53

in it, you know, and again, like there's always the possibility that somebody's gonna break out and being amazing. But I can also see from, from my own experience as a business owner how much I had to read learn to apply in the context of my own business, right? Because I've worked at large corporations, I've worked at a small business that was

Gina: 1:00:17

great. Had you not had those experiences, there's no way you could even remotely successfully create your own business, you need to have the business in a big corporation, medium sized and small to really be able to own your own business and run it somewhat effectively.

Nance: 1:00:37

So because a lot easier than it is, right,

Gina: 1:00:40

so to your point, I had, I had realised that this woman went from selling wedding stationery, to doing this and then hired her bible church group friend, to do be a COO, who was half my age and had literally no work experience. Nothing. Had that been made prevalent to me, I would have been like, I don't think I could do this. Like,

Nance: 1:01:06

yeah, and again, there's they're occasionally breakout stars, but what you see, but now those breakout stars are doing something, to fill those knowledge gaps to fill those experience gaps, hire

Gina: 1:01:20

people who actually know what they're doing,

Nance: 1:01:23

right, but you still even to be able to supervise someone else, you have to have enough of an understanding of what they do, so that you know how to recognise how to align it with the bigger picture, right? When you're in the C suite, that's, that's your job. So like, look, you know, as a little sidetrack there is I've been a little, I've been a little harsh with some of the corporations that have been laying people off. And then the C suite never takes any kind of pay cut, or any kind of hit because, look, if you're laying people off, I get that there was a pandemic, and there are circumstances you can't always see. But it's a failure of management if you're having to lay off 10s of 1000s of people. So you know, you have to do some self reflection there. And you have to fill those knowledge gaps, right? Like, no one saves me but myself. I know this as a business owner. So you know, you got to get in there. And I think it's it's a lot of that, that I recognise in your story that sounds a lot like mine many years ago. And again, it doesn't mean people can't learn. But you have to see that consistency, you have to see them.

Gina: 1:02:38

And you have to be willing to learn and be willing to self reflect and there was zero willingness, it was revenue, revenue revenue, right?

Nance: 1:02:47

Like it like it's just gonna come magically. Right. And I think that's another thing that a lot of things a lot of businesses have done in with because of technology, it is relatively easy to set up a business and it's an has been like you want to file for an LLC, super easy to do. Do it online, right? Well, you have this LLC, but that doesn't mean you're going to still have an operating business, you just have a piece of paper that says you have one, but it may not be profitable, which means you don't really have anything, right. So I think that's the other part of it is that we, again, it looks easier than it is. And I even saw that in the business where I went to work is i i can see it more objectively that I had my own gaps. And quite frankly, if they had known what they were doing, maybe they wouldn't have hired me. Because I can see that too. Like I worked really hard to catch up. But there were things that I was also having to fix, you know, we say you're flying the plane while building it. Right? It definitely was in that situation. Because I was having to learn how to apply a lot of my experience to a new context, while also fixing a lot of issues that were created by a management team that had just never done anything like this before. And it and so I see that with I can look at it with a little bit of compassion. Right that it was their inexperience not necessarily that they were intentionally demons, right? Or anything like that. But the inability to recognise your own fallibilities is a recipe for disaster and you will pull other people down with you.

Gina: 1:04:35

Anyway Nancy, do you have anything because we're already over time by five minutes and we don't want to keep you but yeah

Nance: 1:04:41

cuz I do have a four o'clock but I would. Yeah, I think I did. You know, I did have my notes. So I want to leave on an on an on a kind of an up note. You know, I think the the number one thing that it goes back to what do you do when you're in that right when you're in that toxic workplace and maybe you don't I have a lot of options to move, right? Obviously, the first thing is see what you can do to change them? Right? Because I like to break it down is, it's yes, we call it a toxic workplace, but it's a toxic workplace that's created by a series of behaviours, right, that are allowed. So, you know, it's being very clear on what the toxic behaviours are that are causing you the most harm, and starting there and speaking up and not taking it right. And that's including taking a look at how you're responding to them. So it's that self reflection we go back to, and going deep into what it is that you expect, what's not being met? What do you need? What do you need to be successful in that job, so that you can create the opportunity to ask for it, like I mentioned earlier of getting really clear on here are the assignments that you've given me, and I want to do a great job for you. Right, but I cannot do that. And this right, so I have to be and you know, you try that. And it's the same thing I said about interviewing, when you're in trying to engage people in the conversation, if they're not meeting you, you already know where you are, right? These are the things I wish I had known for myself earlier on, is asking those questions be and it's what I see in contract negotiations, too. Right? If, if an employer hands me or a client hands me or a vendor hands me a standard contract with a bunch of terms we hadn't considered, we hadn't talked about, that's also a red flag for me. Because that tells me automatically that this is somebody who lured me in to a conversation where I thought we had an agreement, and now they're adding a bunch of terms, right, that we didn't talk about. So those are the kinds of things that you know, and then if you're in that situation, sometimes the best thing to do is start start setting yourself up to leave. And that's and that's why I said like, there are a lot of opportunities out there. And it's, it can be difficult to find them at first. Yeah. But imagine spending that energy that you're spending, trying to change a place that's not going to change, and taking that energy to move you somewhere where you're going to be happier and more effective, because most people want to do a good job. That's what I you know, I always tell employers that like, very rarely do you have an employee that goes into a job interview, accepts a job and says, Oh my god, I can't wait to suck at this job. Like I'm gonna do the worst job ever.

Nicola: 1:07:47

Unless you're a blow job again. That's the only time I feel like you should really suck at the job. Oh,

Nance: 1:07:55

okay. The sexual harassment trainer is over here going.

Gina: 1:07:59

We've already talked about like how I get so Nicola, you'll like this. I got more Botox. Am I

Nicola: 1:08:06

more you such a numpty?

Gina: 1:08:09

Well, now it's so much that I, every morning when I'm drinking my coffee out of my coffee cup. It's like dribble. It's like Oh, I'm like, wow, this is bad. And like, it's hard for me to talk really fast. Like because I have to sound my words out. Because if you notice my lip does not really move. So

Nicola: 1:08:32

please tell us all the places we can find you and your book. And inside

Nance: 1:08:37

far. Yeah. And you know what I meant to put a copy of the book like right here so I could go there. But so my so my book is on Amazon it's called DIY conflict resolution. And it's so it's it's part book part workbook. So it's got a lot of exercises in the back to practice so that you start to make this part of your your being right because like like you said, when you are out of practice, you don't make as good decisions. And I want you to make good decisions and I don't want you to work in a toxic workplace. Right so so there's that um, you can also find me on LinkedIn 30 year conflict resolution, I have my personal page there to my website is third year CR for conflict resolution.com And it spelled out the word third the word year. Yeah, and YouTube and I do have a YouTube channel I drop a video extra matter of fact, that's my four o'clock meeting is that I drop a video once a week with some employment tips for employers and employees on creating that Employment Partnership and trying to avoid these toxic workplaces because I do you feel like we're in a in kind of the New Labour movement. And a lot of employers don't even see it coming. And look, if you aren't getting on board with treating people with respect and you don't see See the movement coming? Fine. Bye.

Gina: 1:10:04

We'll see. We'll see when you're trying to get it when when you're now going to be interviewing at a place that we're hiring at. Yeah. So I firmly believe like in Reina story when her old ex like toxic boss was then applying for a job at her new company that she was in charge of hiring, like, the poetic justice. Like, I feel like that's yeah, happens.

Nicola: 1:10:29

That is the poetic justice, you needed

Gina: 1:10:31

that. And I feel like Daniel will eventually happen with something like somehow it'll all work itself out. Because karma is real.

Nance: 1:10:41

It is. And I've, I've ended up in the courtroom with people that I've had difficult relationships with. I've had a former boss that of course, I, you know, ran into. And, and you know, what, one of the things I've learned is that even he who had been a terrible boss, I won't say where I was working at the time. But he's, he's grew, you know. So that's another thing to keep in mind. It's like, even though there's that poetic justice, when they're coming to us think please give me a job. It was right. Like being in that position. Yeah, is, you know, still giving them the opportunity to show that they've that they've grown and changed, but if they haven't, that's on them. It's the same thing with employees that I've let go, I let them self select termination. I give them every opportunity to stay. Yeah. And succeed. And tell me what they need to do that. And if it doesn't work out, it's okay. It's like breaking up with a lover. Right. Like, if it's if we're not compatible. That's cool. I don't want you to stay. And we make each other miserable. Yeah, it has been.

Nicola: 1:11:55

Well, it is. It has been really awesome chatting with you. I feel like I've had a good time. I don't know about anyone else. But I've had I've had

Nance: 1:12:05

this is great. I was I was a little nervous. Because I was like, I'm kind of in a different space. Are they going to eat me alive?

Gina: 1:12:14

Everyone, like thinks that we're like battle axes? And then we're just like, Wait, can't move. Haha.

Nance: 1:12:22

You all are so cool. And what you all are doing is great, because I think this is a these are conversations that need to occur. And people need to know that they're not alone. And figured that's

Gina: 1:12:33

why we started this. Yeah, not because we were just so helpful employees. But because we were like how do these two high, highly educated, highly experienced people end up like this. And in where we were like this, it and we said it before? And I'll say it again, it could have been anywhere it could have been ups, it could have been IBM, we just happened to meet at this particular workplace, it didn't matter. We would you know, and it's not even about the workplace, it's that the people who comprise the workplace are not willing to self reflect. And I think that that's sort of where we wanted to highlight things as well. It's like, Could this have been done differently on both ends? And the answer is most always. Yeah. So I'm no longer disgruntled.

Nance: 1:13:25

Yeah, you're, you know, that's the other thing that I, I'm, yeah, yeah, we're gruntled. Now, whatever that means. But I saw the same thing is like, it was an opening, for me to move to something more compatible. And that's why I go back to that compatibility. And why I talked so much about interviewing the employer, also, when you're

Gina: 1:13:48

just as much as they're interviewing you. Is, is I think, for people who, you know, we're probably on the same generation, more or less, like, maybe a few years difference with you and Nikola, but you and I are definitely in the same generation. And we were taught, like, you're competing with other smart people to get this job. Instead of, you're gonna get this job because you're, you're good at what you do, and you're a smart person. So therefore, you have a lot of opportunities. And that might not always be true, like I think it's and also the, the further you get along in your career, the harder it is to find a job because your demands become bigger, like I demand a pretty large salary at this point. You know, I am at an executive level I, you know, so I get it, but the right thing will eventually come along, you know,

Nance: 1:14:47

and people are often willing to sacrifice a little on income. And this is something we'll talk to employers about, too. If they're going to be in a culture that allows them to be creative and grow and contribute. And I think that's something where

Gina: 1:15:02

psychological safety, which right was not existent in our place of work where and then,

Nance: 1:15:10

and then when I was in HR and I would talk to my mom about some of the stuff I was, you know, I was dealing with and she was like, That was nothing. Right?

Gina: 1:15:19

Right. So it's like, hopefully it keeps getting better. I know, like, my my mom, too. She's like, she's 84 Now, but she's, there's stories, even with my dad who has since passed. But he did work for IBM and some of the stories he would tell me. I'd be like, Whoa, that's crazy. You know?

Nance: 1:15:41

So we're, you know, we're making progress. But we have a long way to go. And I think you guys are doing a great job of fleshing some of this out and giving people a space like I that's what I saw, too, is like, we basically workshopped things a little bit, right. And that's what has to occur. We need spaces to talk about things and work through them, get strategies and empower each other. And I think that's what you all are doing. And I really admire you for doing it. Yeah,

Gina: 1:16:07

that's what that's what we're trying to do. So yay, I think I think if I'm fancy, Nancy, the lawyer thinks that we're doing a good job than doing a good job.

Nance: 1:16:17

I'm so not fancy.

Nicola: 1:16:21

I am going to turn that into a social media post Fancy Nancy. Yes, you have here.

Nance: 1:16:28

Make sure you spell it with the E so you don't get sued by the people that have the book. Book there's a book. Yeah,

Gina: 1:16:36

it is. Yeah, it's Yeah, okay. Yes, you're right. Didn't someone famous write it? I think it was like Jimmy Fallon or something. Oh, really?

Nance: 1:16:48

I have so loved being with you, but I'm gonna go record my video now.

Gina: 1:16:52

Alright. Okay. Thanks so much for your time. Okay.

Nicola: 1:16:59

Thank you for joining us today. If you would like to share your story, we would love to hear from you.

Gina: 1:17:04

Also, leaving a review helps us create more content because it shows us there's an interest in this topic.

Nicola: 1:17:10

For those of our listeners who do beta with reading, we have close caption available on YouTube. See you

Gina: 1:17:15

next week, same time, same place.