S2E4: Toxic Positivity and Recruitment Strategies: Amy's Story

Strap in for a journey chronicling the ups and downs of a job search, from the lens of Amy Find Reeves - a career seeker turned successful corporate executive, consultant, and author. Our candid conversation with Reeves, now the brain behind Job Coach Amy, is filled with her personal anecdotes of career struggles and triumphs. She generously shares insights gathered along her path, which she has distilled into her book, College to Career: Explained Tools, Skills, and Confidence for Your Job Search, a vital tool for anyone navigating the job market.

This episode also sheds light on the murky waters of gender discrimination in the corporate world. You'll hear about our shared encounters with breaking gender barriers on Wall Street during the '80s, and the many forms toxicity can take in workplaces lacking in checks and balances. We paint a vivid picture of the havoc toxic relationships can wreak, from insecure bosses to subordinates, and unethical bosses.

In our final act, listen as we dissect the importance of customizing job applications and the unspoken damage of toxic positi

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
Buzzsprout refer a friend! 
Grab a $20 off when you sign up!

 With SiteGround's Click-and-Install WordPress, we're leaving manual setup in the past. Our podcast is powered by the seamless one-click installation and WordPress Starter wizard. Choose from pro designs, add contact forms, online stores, portfolios – all automated, no tech stress. Say goodbye to mundane setups and hello to a stunning podcast platform. Dive into impactful discussions without the technical hassle. Launch your podcast website effortlessly.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2108585/subscribe 

Social Media:

https://www.instagram.com/toxic_workplace_pod/

Transcript

Amy: 0:44

Hi guys, good morning.

Nicola: 0:46

Amy, how are you oh?

Amy: 0:48

dad, it's nice to see you. It's nice to see you Not in a snowy West Virginia excellent landscape.

Gina: 0:58

I'm glad to see you're actually alive.

Nicola: 1:01

Oh yes, thank you, I did make it. It was kind of a deliverance kind of situation really last year, but I did make it. That's good. Do you want me to put on a cool colored background? Am I okay where I am?

Amy: 1:13

Okay, yeah, you do. You're welcome to have a cool color background. We've got a spare one if you want. Okay, you don't have to, though, we're all good, okay, good, oh, I'm so excited to have you here.

Nicola: 1:27

Thank you. Yes, I'll put on my privacy. I do not disturb. Okay, let's see, I've been listened to a couple of your shows. I'm going to work for Air New Zealand, I think, who has a well-being department. That sounds right.

Amy: 1:47

I watch everybody in New. Zealand.

Nicola: 1:51

And that's not where you're calling in from. Is it your state side? Now who?

Amy: 1:57

me. No, I'm in New. Zealand.

Nicola: 2:00

Oh, you are Okay.

Gina: 2:01

Yeah, no, and I'm here in the United States. Yeah, gareth, gareth Jobs sound like I think you heard me say I was like we don't even have anything like that. It's like maybe HR sort of, but it's like not like anything like health and safety like that in America at all and it's like it's really fucked up.

Nicola: 2:24

Well, there's third party software. Is now software now that HR people can buy? Ariana Huffington famously has one, I think it's called Thrive Global.

Amy: 2:36

Oh yeah.

Nicola: 2:37

And as a company to work for. It's supposed to be completely miserable and completely like out of whack and miserable, but it sells stuff like meditation courses that you can get through your company.

Gina: 2:50

But I don't think that that's what Air New Zealand is doing. Like they're like. They're like learning who their employees are. They're sitting, they're listening. It's not a fucking software program.

Amy: 3:03

Like this, like we said, software program.

Gina: 3:05

I'm like I'm out. So, Amy, why don't you formally introduce yourself, tell us who you are, what you're up to, why you decided to come on the podcast, and we will then go from there.

Nicola: 3:21

Okay, my name is Amy Find Reeves and I am and this is I am 10 years into my second entrepreneurial venture, this one's solo. My first one was not solo and I am the sole proprietor of a of Job Coach Amy, which is a coaching organization where I help career seekers at all levels find and keep jobs that they love. And my first love is really helping kids or students, new or recent grads, find jobs. And I have written a book in the last year with for my first love, which is called College to Career, explained Tools, skills and Confidence for your Job Search, available everywhere, and that is a step by step guide to help people figure out what it is that they like, doing what jobs there are where they can do that and then go through the process of structuring a job search and developing the tools they need cover letter, resume, elevator pitch, how the process works from the other side because I was a hiring manager for two plus decades and how to get references, all that kind of good stuff, all the nuts and bolts of it. And the reason why that is a passion for me is that I was complete failure at it when I first got out of school and I went to a good school, I had a good GPA, I had really cute skirt suits and I could barely get an interview and I spent a year as an and the job I wanted because it was the 80s, I'm very old, I should have, I should have prefaced with that I wanted to go to Wall Street Bank Training Program and there were many of them in those days and I could barely get an interview. So I worked as an admin for a year because I could type 90 words a minute, which was a big deal back then, and I spent a year teaching myself how to interview and teaching myself what you actually did on those jobs. And the first year next year, first time out of the gate, I got an interview. I got the job, turns out, I was really good at it, I really liked it and I thought, oh my God, what's? What was the difference from the year before, when nobody would interview me? And the answer was there was all, just all these things that nobody ever taught me and there was no resource for me.

Nicola: 5:37

So from that point forward in my career which I went on to be significant and I really loved and I got to do a lot of really fun things. I had a solid career, got to do a lot of fun things, became a, had a great career as a global management consultant, became a corporate executive, non-profit executive, built and sold the company with two partners, and I always was a person in the office who was. When people came in and were like, oh my God, my nephew wants to get into this business, or you know my neighbor, I'd be the one who said, oh, I'll help them. I'll help them because I just really enjoyed it.

Nicola: 6:14

And when I and I also had to make a difficult career shift, when I found myself in my early 40s, my husband left me for a his college girlfriend and with left me with my two year old and a career that I had was traveling all the time. I was the main breadwinner and I suddenly couldn't be a consultant anymore because I needed to be homes. But I had to. I knew how to run a consulting firm, so I ran three offices of a, of a of a contract research organization pharmaceutical firm, which was, by the way, an industry had never been in before. So I learned how to do that as well.

Nicola: 6:50

And again, I didn't really find there were any resources to help me. So I became the resource that I knew I had had needed to be, and so fast forward many years and my second husband said what is it you really want to do? And I said, yeah, this has been sort of my dream. So I've been doing it ever since and I just love it. It feels like a great gift to be able to do it and at the same time, I have had many, many, many ups and downs in my own career.

Nicola: 7:19

I've been in a place where you know I was the golden girl and got promoted ahead of everybody else. I have been fired, I have been in many, many toxic situations and I've kind of seen it all, which, as it turns out, is great for everything that I am able to share with my clients now. So who knew all of those ups and downs and crazy situations I've been in would end up paying off in the end, because they really do benefit the clients I have now, and I can look back and say, oh, that's why that happened. So that's a little bit about me.

Gina: 7:54

I mean, I think that Nikola and I always like to say, like you know, even though something bad might happen, you don't really know how it's going to work Like in the next day, in the next hour, and it could turn out to be one of the best things that's ever happened to you Like I like to look back at them and be like, oh, those are all the references, right. Like you know, like Okay, so I got fired from this job, which then led me to this, which then led me to that, and now I'm doing with something that I love. And you know, even though it feels so terrible at the time of getting fired or you have to leave the job, or whatever the upheaval might be in that particular situation, it always does kind of end up working out. Working out even if you can't see it right at that moment. Absolutely, I'm a big proponent of that yeah.

Amy: 9:14

I'm a big proponent of that.

Gina: 9:15

So why don't? So I, you know, when we were vetting you, I was like, oh yeah, my first job at a college was also on Wall Street, like I was a SMP building, but that was like 2002. So there was a little bit of time in between us. So why don't you explain a little bit like what it was like working back then? Because, like you know, in the 80s, that's when I grew up, and it was all about like women can have it all, like you know Brookshields on the cover of Cosmo, like holding the baby in the power suit with the big shoulder pads, all of that. So what was that like actually living it?

Nicola: 9:54

Oh my god, now I'm a living history project, it was. It was really weird. I got there and thought, oh my god, thank goodness for all the women who came before me so I don't have to worry about any, you know any any discrimination on Wall Street. Meanwhile, I got a list of things that I couldn't couldn't wear, such as no slingback shoes, no short sleeves above my elbow cuz.

Gina: 10:22

I'm still laughing that you actually thought like you're like oh great, this is so modern, like that's so naive. I love it, okay, I'm. So. I'm the woman who used to wear paper like burlap sacks to work. Now I can.

Nicola: 10:37

Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, so you had a dress, absolutely, and you know, god forbid. You know some of the sight of one of my colleagues being driven into a sexual frenzy by the side of my elbow because I'm wearing sleeves above my elbow and I could wear dresses. I was at the one of our liberal places where I could wear dresses but I had to wear a dress with a jacket and there was this Horizontal versus first vertical rule you could wear. You could not wear a jacket if you went vertically, but if you went horizontally in the building you had to wear a jacket. And and I, yeah, it was all. It was very, very well laid out and I will say they were tough on men too, because One of my male colleagues at this bank and, by the way, we had black rotary dial phones Would had one day he was because we all, it was like, at least it was.

Nicola: 11:37

The bank was founded by Alexander Hamilton and we used to call it Al cam high, but that one of my colleagues was getting dread. We all had our first paychecks right, so we were hot drinking together every night and one of my colleagues had a suit that went in. What went on drinking when I went in to get a suit the next day and he wound up with like his black, his gray charcoal pinstripes jacket and his navy pinstripe pants and by 10 30 that morning he had been called into the training program director's office to say we don't allow separates here, but we can give you a loan to purchase more clothes if you feel your wardrobe needs to be amplified. It was. It was very serious, but it was, yeah, for women it was. And I became a a barrier breaker when I in my training program, got the top score in the cash flow accounting exam and and in 1986, which was when the price of the of oil fell from $40 a barrel to $14 a barrel and the chairman of my bank fired Everyone in the oil, gas and extractive industries division and said, oh, just get the person who got the top score in the cash Logs accounting exam and put them in there. Well, no one thought it would be a girl Girl in the oil, gas and extractive in this huge vision.

Nicola: 13:03

And there was a big Bruja because I had to have a modesty panel in my desk and there were no desks with modesty panels and so there was a Bankers desk has two side panels with drawers, and then it just. But this had to have a modesty panel in front so that no one would see my legs when they walked by. And I later heard that the president of the bank had once been walking through the main banking floor and walked by a? A had been looking at someone's legs under the desk from Sharon admin and smacked right into one of the main pillars on the main banking floor and that was why there was such a big deal that I had to have an Modesty panel. I mean, there is. It was just like the most ridiculous thing.

Nicola: 13:48

But anyway, I had a great time and I actually got a 10 state territory on the west coast.

Nicola: 13:54

I had never been west of Pennsylvania we were in had tiny little pieces of these huge loan agreements and these big oil companies and the Treasures of companies like Arco and Unical and Oxenall petroleum, who many of whom don't exist anymore, but they were big had to sit with me for lunch once a quarter and you know this 23 old blonde girl. You know it was like you want to buy a lockbox or do a registration in case you want to do a bond and it was. It was a blast, I loved it and and the others and the the toxic part was being the only woman was. You know, there was a Situation where, you know, like the head of the division said to me at the Christmas party one night, you know, I don't think you can do as good a job as a man could in the role that you have and I kind of went you know what do I do with that exactly? And I kind of didn't do anything because I was getting to fly first class all over the country.

Gina: 14:54

And yeah, I mean, I don't think I would have said I would have just been like. Yet here I am, so yeah.

Nicola: 15:03

Yeah, I'm, and I stayed there five years and I got some good references to go this. I learned a ton. I got. I have a certificate in petroleum engineering from the University of Southwestern Louisiana. The Raging Cajuns and I flew in a. I flew in a Learjet to I saw I went to a gold mine. I I Learned to play blackjack and when I'm when I'm a canovada from the CFO of Pegasus Gold, I went to solve an extraction electro winning plant and for copper I saw copper wire being made. It was all this like from a kid from New.

Gina: 15:35

Jersey. That's really cool. Yeah, it's like cool shit yeah.

Nicola: 15:41

But I also had some. Actually, because I apologize for people who are listening because you're not gonna be able to see this, but in this, in the start of my toxic workplace career, there were several things. I actually made you a bingo card, places and this, so you can choose what you like.

Nicola: 16:06

I'm gonna try there, so I have you can't see it Down the down the side. I have three categories of potentially toxic relationships. There's boss, right here, and subordinates, and Then across the top, I have insecure, overly secure and unethical, and In each of those boxes I do have examples you do, I do so. Well, just these are kind of random examples. So for the insecure boss and actually this was my first boss at this bank the quote I have in here is your work sucks. So the incase insecure boss will kind of say like so when I got my first Bonus at this bank job, it arrived with a conversation from my boss at the time who said Well, of course we're giving you a very nice bonus this year and bump and raise, because our work as a team, our work is a division and the men that you report to have been doing so well, so you're benefiting from that and Not right.

Gina: 17:21

There's not really your work.

Nicola: 17:25

Yeah everybody else is yeah, yeah, so you know example. So, yeah, so this is this is. This is for you guys. I made it just for you so you can choose which toxic workplace story you, with you, would like. I'm happy to just read out the examples to Can I, can I hear the one?

Gina: 17:46

any of the unethical ones same? I'm on board for any, let's start on board.

Nicola: 17:54

Okay, so For boss unethical and doing an ethical, so it's actually not. I have a nonprofit example from there. I worked for a time for an organization that mostly worked with government grants and and was a fabulous, fabulous organization that was running that. Put it into low-income housing. Okay, so that's insist. The issue there was the organization was so completely and tightly controlled by two people and the board was specifically chosen To be unchallenging, so it was a little bit In organization without any checks or balances whatsoever.

Nicola: 18:49

Like none, because I work for a, not for profits, right now and I'm like everything is scrutinized at this point, like Isn't your not for profit, like government subsidized?

Gina: 19:05

These government subsidy, but it's like, it's a charity, like we make yeah, but I think once government is involved it's a little bit more checks and balances. Maybe not much, I don't know. What do you think, amy? Um the the?

Nicola: 19:57

The investing government money is highly successful. Mm-hmm, and and beyond repute, be you know, beyond any kind of um Shadow, of a doubt, successful in doing fulfilling the mission. Then the individuals can do or yeah, right.

Nicola: 20:20

Still, what is becomes a personally extremely top-sec, high turnover and very controlling Because the individual is doing exceptionally good work. That's beyond reproach. The individual then tends to also Run rampant in terms of I can do what I want, including getting board community board members oh my god, I'm gonna do so much trouble community board members who are able to Just do what I want.

Gina: 21:00

Okay so Maybe I can help you out here. One of my very first jobs like I've been working since I was probably like 14, right, like part-time jobs, whatever. So my mom is like a big Catholic, like really big into like God and organized religion I'm not you, I'm not but there was this thing called Neighborhood Bible study. It was a nationwide thing I don't know if Anyone's heard of it, but it would go by nbs and my mom always volunteered there. She was like big into it and so One summer I interned there, like you know, I got paid, whatever and I Did, like you know, admin stuff, secretarial stuff, packaging things, stuff like that menial stuff.

Gina: 21:47

So it was. It was a not-for-profit, it was very small. There was like three people there. The two main people who ran it were a man and a woman. They were husband and wife. Cut to like seven years later Because there was no checks and balances. The husband and wife who ran it has it had embezzled all the money and it was a lot of money and it no longer exists. So I feel like that's kind of like you know it's, it's kind of in the same vein of what you're talking about, like it's a much smaller scenario, um, but it no longer exists like and it was a big thing at the time like it was. This was like in the Early 90s, probably they would like you know. It was like every Wednesday was like neighborhood bible study night, you know, across the nation or wherever it was so yeah, no, yeah I don't think, but I think it regardless of religion.

Gina: 22:47

Like nonprofits I think you do have to be a little wary of, because there aren't always those checks and balances like who is checking? The husband and wife who are running it.

Nicola: 22:58

Right, right, here's an example I feel more comfortable with, and it's a consulting firm that no longer exists. But I was told by my boss. So I was again the only woman because I had had this experience in metals and I joined the steel organ at the steel department consulting agency of a of a global consulting firm, and we had a latin american client who they were pretty sure was gonna Stop the flow of money into the organization and they told me to run down the budget as much as I could by charging as much as I could, and suggested I do a study on what was a new technology that was being used at the time. Um, and it gave me a deadline, gave me a project, and I went out and did it and when I came back I was told I was not told this until I came back was like, well, we're not actually going to get this to the client, but we wanted to spend down the budget as much as possible.

Nicola: 23:58

So now I was in a department, a team, in a division, and I had a mentor who was, you know, running the overall company. Like what do I do with that? Like that felt horrible and and as an exec, and when I was attempt, starting out like AT&T headquarters was in the town where my mother was living, my my adopted hometown at the time, and I got paid like $11 an hour. This was in 1982, which was a fortune, that's a lot.

Nicola: 24:27

Yeah, yeah, to shadow a secretary and I spent a lot of my time reading books, reading novels, because Everyone's in a while. They give me something to type or photocopy, but like six out of an eight out, six hours out of any day or a day, I'd bring in a book because there's nothing for me to do and it was just so wasteful. So you know, you see, stuff like that, you know you're 22 Versus you know being in my 30s versus being in my 50s, and it's just kind of makes you want to go so but I kind of understand, like the whole thing with the Latin American company, like from a business standpoint.

Gina: 25:07

I under I kind of can understand that I think it is towing the line of what's ethical and what's unethical. But, it's like if you're reliant on that account and you think that something's up with that account, you wanna scramble and get as much as you can, while it getting good.

Nicola: 25:25

Yeah, as long as it's not gonna be valuable.

Gina: 25:29

Well, and as long as it's above board. So you know, maybe they most likely knew something that you didn't know, like you know, maybe that obviously they pulled the project at the last minute, or they always knew they were gonna pull the project. But the thing is, is what were your motives? Your motives were pure, you were doing what you were told to do. So it's like you can't and I don't think you are blaming yourself, but I think from a business standpoint it's savvy. But I don't know, yeah, I don't know if I would necessarily consider that completely unethical. I think it's a gray area.

Nicola: 26:07

Okay okay, See, I feel like if I was a client I would be completely freaked out by that. If they're saying you need to do what we've been asking you to See, I think I was just given a red herring of a project to do that wasn't necessarily something they had been asked to do.

Gina: 26:26

I think it's a gray area, because but if so, the way you're saying it, though it's like you're getting rumors that this company that you're relying on your partner or your client is going to stop giving you money, right? So it's like you're almost like you're in between a rock and a hard place. So I don't know, I think maybe I'm not understanding it properly, but I don't necessarily think it's completely unethical, because I think, if push came to shove, you could give the report to the client.

Nicola: 26:59

Yes, that's true, that's true, and it wound up being a really good piece of work that we sold to other clients, which is adds another dimension, but yeah, Right so. Sure, we gave it to them as well.

Gina: 27:10

Yeah, yeah, Okay. So give us another example.

Nicola: 27:15

Well, from another, from here, the unethical, I'm sure you've seen this one. From the Fierce Column, I'm taking your work, yeah, and from the subordinates, I'm presenting someone else's work to you. So both of those are. I've had that happen. I will tell you just because, before I go into examples of those, I will tell you kind of a funny one.

Nicola: 27:46

I once got brought into a company that had recently gone from a smaller company to a much bigger company that had made two acquisitions at the same time and I was brought on a consultant to sort of do some evaluation as to who's gonna be.

Nicola: 28:00

There are big company people and small company people and who's gonna be able to make the transition to becoming a bigger company person. And one of the people that I recommended letting go was the head of HR and she thought and screamed and she was told and she was actually escorted out. That was a policy at the time and about five weeks go by and I was still at the client and all of a sudden you could hear the finance manner and this person, it was somebody. It was one of those women who was always in perfect makeup and perfect care and HR people are sort of like really bright and she and her husband worked in IT at the same company and her partner and they had a condo in the Caribbean somewhere and they talked about going there all the time, said they didn't have any kids and about five weeks later you could hear the finance manager all over the executive floor screen oh my God, we've been paying for the condo in the no and she no.

Gina: 29:09

Wait a second. How did they find out Wait?

Nicola: 29:15

In America and she had, when she goes escorted out, she kept saying let me just go back to my desk and we were like I'm sorry I wasn't there, but she probably wanted to cover her ass with the condo. And the boyfriend was in IT and he had helped cover up some of the no, he's not With the role.

Gina: 29:39

Like the embezzlement to like.

Nicola: 29:42

So she, about a couple of days after she left, she got on a plane to Venezuela and the boyfriend hadn't gotten on a plane to Venezuela yet, but he did like before he had gone to Venezuela before the embezzlement came in. So the company got extradition and they're both in jail now here.

Gina: 30:06

No, this is so good. Did the company sell the condo? Was the condo nice?

Nicola: 30:12

That I do not know. I didn't stick around that far, I just heard from people that it was. I think that was very nice.

Gina: 30:18

It was probably gorgeous, but also what kind of jackass comes to work and brags about their condo that they're embezzling, like, Like, like. So I had a friend of mine who embezzled quite a bit of money and she did her time and everything and she was actually like I'm glad that that happened, she's a better person now. But when she was confronted with the embezzlement she was like yes, I did that, she just copped to it. It's like, like.

Amy: 30:54

In my Was that the friend that went to the prisons?

Gina: 30:59

Yeah, she did like seven years in Rikers. Or not seven, maybe four.

Amy: 31:04

Did she go to Cal?

Gina: 31:05

State. No, rikers is not federal, but but.

Amy: 31:12

And Rikers is the one that always makes it to the movies because it's a shit game.

Gina: 31:15

It's like the. It's not real. It's just like a regular prison. It's not. It's just because it's like New York City prison.

Amy: 31:24

It's on an island off of New York, it's like, yeah and I. This is totally unrelated, totally unrelated.

Gina: 31:30

And I think eventually she probably was transferred to the Bedford Correctional Facility for Women, but anyway, but hold on, margie.

Amy: 31:38

Totally unrelated. I'm just curious to know what are the prisons like in America? Like do you have Like in the bed? I don't know.

Gina: 31:48

I've never been to prison, amy. Have you ever been to? Are you asking us Like we're like the whitest white people, like in America? Like I think the worst thing I ever did was carry my dog on the subway without like an approved carrier and I got detained by NYPD once. That's the worst thing I've ever done. I'm Catholic.

Nicola: 32:09

Like you got me Like, oh yeah.

Amy: 32:12

Come on those Catholics. We know you're getting into trouble. We need to get Jane on.

Gina: 32:15

We need to get Jane on. But when that story broke because it actually broke in like all the major New York papers, because she, the employer she embezzled from, was kind of famous I was like so pissed off. I was like she should have made shell companies, like she should have hidden it better. Like I was like no, she couldn't have kept the time going longer, like, but I love that the HR. So what gave you? What made you want, like when you were in there, to restructure, not knowing that she was embezzling and the company was paying for the condo, what were like kind of the red flags that you were like she's not gonna be able to make it.

Nicola: 32:55

She just didn't really do any work. I mean, she it was a scientific company and the scientists were all kind of out of control. They were all kind of doing their own thing. They weren't really setting up appropriate budgets. They were. Scientists are really difficult to manage they all. What's the expression there? Smart, nobody wants to do. You know how lawyers have to. Unless you're doing some really cool aspect of law, you have to do the same thing again and again and again.

Nicola: 33:29

That's kind of the same thing when you're doing pharmaceutical, preliminary pharmaceutical research, like you're trying to identify what research has been done on this in the past and what's been, what have learned and if there's any ways to improve on it and what the indications are. Blah, blah, blah. Everybody wanted to take, you know, an ordinary problem and turn it into a huge, unique situation. So you know something that they were all billed by pharmaceutical company. Sorry, a pharmaceutical company would outsource a particular research project and maybe $100,000.

Nicola: 34:08

And these scientists would turn it into like a $500,000 project, so like a lot of money would get wasted because the hourlies weren't being tracked and there was no system setup and there was no sort of performance reviews set in place. So like the structure of what they needed to For managing 15 scientists. Yeah, you could do it because it was one-on-one, but you needed the processes and you needed the documentation when you were moving to 100 scientists. So that's what I mean by somebody who's a small company person versus a big company person is somebody who kind of operates on instinct versus somebody who kind of operates with processes.

Nicola: 34:43

Mm-hmm, okay, all right and that's also the issue on somebody who's who's very controlling over everything from, you know, a board to an organization as Like sort of running it on their gut without any checks and balances, as opposed to being able to run it through a structure and a process and written documents and guidelines and those are. That's a gray line of unethical. It's not a black and white line as long as the company's doing well according to its mission, so it's a little tangent.

Gina: 35:25

No, I think that's good.

Nicola: 35:29

But again, when I was at the bank again, that bank was so hilarious I mean they told you not to lend money to men with pinky rings Wait why? Because they tended to A lot of mobsters in that day wore pinky rings, or you know. They said, you know you heard stories, like you know, the middle market people would lend money to somebody who had a fur vault and there was somebody who went to visit this fur vault and did due diligence on 7th Avenue and counted all the furs and you know they really liked the people. And then one day the officer was walking down to 7th Avenue's wife and said oh, let me just go introduce you to this company that I'm financing. They have furs. You'll like the showroom it's really cool Knocked up on, went up the stairs, knocked on the door, completely empty.

Nicola: 36:22

So it was like a total scam to try to get this money. But the furs were all rented. It was a total scam. I mean you heard all these stories about you know fake ways to get money out of, or lines of credit out of, bankers. So you've got Like you've sort of heard all these crazy stories about what people did to try to get money. So absolutely.

Gina: 36:45

What's the craziest one that you were like a party to, not that you were involved in, but that you knew about or that you uncovered? Besides the condo? That was probably the craziest.

Nicola: 36:58

The other one. This is more illustrative of how companies I always try to tell my clients because they'll say you know, oh, I haven't heard from a company in a week, or I got my offer letter but I haven't gotten anything else. I'm like most companies are just kind of bumping along and they're not really run like clockwork. I don't care how good Maybe some the company is like a Goldman Sachs or a really really, really top-level company is really run well, but most companies are just kind of bumping along. One of the funniest stories I've heard is about my former bank, which is one of the few banks that is still in existence today, when there was 100 commercial banks and 100. There must have been 30 commercial banks and commercial bank training programs. But Chemical Bank, manufacturers, hanover, all of these banks that existed when in the 80s that are no longer there.

Nicola: 37:52

My bank, the Bank of New York, still exists and the reason why it still exists is it has a huge securities processing clearing center, which means that when you make a deposit before it actually goes to your bank, it'll clear it through.

Nicola: 38:06

The check will clear through, has to clear through securities processing system, which will usually mean the Bank of New York takes a few cents, et cetera. One of the funniest things I've ever heard was and back in those days bank operations or back office stuff wasn't where the best and the brightest went Well, there was somebody who was the best and the brightest who realized that there was a lot of money to be made there. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was sort of like the darling of the company, et cetera, et cetera. So they made a lot of investment in that and they're still existing today. Someone told me that the reason why initially that investment was made and was so profitable is that for four or five years someone was coding the account and was putting the expenses from that check clearing operation and overall clearing center to the wrong expense center. So the coding in the general ledger system was not going to the check clearing and processing center, it was going somewhere else. So the operation looked like it was 90% profitable.

Amy: 39:09

Whereas in real life.

Nicola: 39:10

It was like 20%, but someone was putting the cost in the wrong cost center.

Gina: 39:16

That sounds exactly like the company we came from. They didn't know the difference between revenue and profit, so they were like we're doing great. Our revenue is like X and L and I'm like that doesn't mean shit, right.

Nicola: 39:31

So the exact list of numbers and they're like we're going to build a new building, we're going to build a new center.

Gina: 39:39

We got so much money and then it's just kidding. Oh my goodness.

Nicola: 39:46

That may be an urban myth, but that's kind of typical of how a lot of companies just stuff like that they don't catch. It's kind of amazing.

Amy: 39:54

But I think it's like this kind of bump along.

Gina: 39:57

The thing, though, is, like a lot of so like companies are made up of individuals, and individuals are therefore human, and then we're therefore prone to error, right, absolutely.

Gina: 40:07

So nothing is ever run 100% correctly, 100% of the time? Yeah, so like, and I think, as a client or a consumer or a customer, we want companies to run 100 percent correctly, 100 percent of the time. So there's this dichotomy, right Like, when we're the worker, we're like well, of course we're going to make mistakes, we're human. But when we're on the other side, we're like this company should have a shit together. So it's like how do we bridge that gap? And is it processes like what you're talking about? Is it? You know, we've talked with other experts and they say it's more empathy, it's more getting to know people on a human level, is it placing people in the right positions? You know, what do you think is the next step there?

Nicola: 41:04

Empathy definitely is trending right now and I would hope that that happens. I mean, if we can all be trained to be empathetic, the world is going to change a lot, I think. I do think that I think that these things have to be institutionalized, and I do think they're all going to be. We're all individuals and I don't think that institutionalized isn't the right word. But I don't think you can force people to be empathetic. What I do think you can do is incentivize people to be empathetic by making it part of their roles, and what's the outcome of that is to keep people so right now. I think we've been through a period where everything in the way we work has changed. I mean, I entered the workforce in 1985, you did in 2002. I mean, for both of us, everything about the way we work has changed right.

Nicola: 42:05

I mean the facture distribute. You know from you name it. It's changed dramatically and everyone who's in business has spent all their time and all the literature has been about just trying to be stop from becoming extinct, right so. But nothing has been done about to keep people focused on managing people. And I think that's really come home to roost with all of the great big four hours, right, the great resignation, the great regret, and I think that is that may be an inflection point for the fact that we have not paid any attention to managing people. And I know a big root cause of it anecdotally that I hear, but it lines up with all the evidence is so many times when someone is leaving an organization, managers and executives say, well, let's not replace them, let's try to give their jobs to someone that's staying, and then suddenly the people who are left get a responsibility of another full time employee, but they don't get any more money and they don't get another title.

Gina: 43:16

And that is that called Nikla.

Nicola: 43:19

By hiring.

Gina: 43:20

Yeah, because one of them I do not need that in my life today.

Amy: 43:26

Thank you very much.

Gina: 43:26

Somebody else was like somebody I've I forgot who it was, but somebody had to to explain it to me, Because I was like I actually know somebody had to explain quiet quitting to me because I thought like and I think it's apparent that I am a smart individual, but I thought it really meant like you just left and you never came back, Because I was like that's how I quite quit, I just yeah, yeah, like you and Irish goodbye, and just never like then, like ghost someone. So I I you know, because that wasn't anything that existed when I was working in corporate America, just like it didn't exist when you were working in corporate America Like well, there wasn't a name for it.

Gina: 44:05

No, sure it was phoning it in or you know something right, but yeah, it was just called quitting you just like, just didn't go to work, you stopped going to work.

Nicola: 44:17

Yeah, it was called dead wood. Yeah, even for that yeah.

Gina: 44:22

But so that's what I thought quiet quitting was. But so then somebody educated us all on the quiet hiring, the quiet quitting and the quiet firing, which I still don't understand how to quiet fire, but maybe we used to call that the aloha room.

Nicola: 44:37

So yeah, you just stop giving people stuff to do and wait for them to leave or phase them out.

Gina: 44:42

Yeah, you like.

Amy: 44:43

Yeah, I mean God isn't that what we do with boyfriends?

Gina: 44:48

That's what I do with guys I don't like. Yeah, I phase them out.

Nicola: 44:54

I once was afraid to pick up my phone for two weeks because I was afraid it was going to be this guy that I didn't want to talk to.

Gina: 45:01

And I was like I can't even touch with you.

Nicola: 45:03

No, I still had to talk to him and like four times and be like, oh, I can't, oh, I can't.

Gina: 45:08

But was it for work related stuff, or were you like dating?

Nicola: 45:11

No, it was at home. It was at home.

Amy: 45:13

I love the work of it.

Gina: 45:15

No, because I was like. I was like sometimes I sometimes if a client's calling me and I see who it is and I don't want to like talk to them, I'll just not answer and then I'll email them back and be like I'm in a meeting and meanwhile I'm like watching TV on the couch with my daughter or whatever. I'll be like what do you need? I'm so sorry, I'm back to back meetings all day.

Amy: 45:41

It's a stinker. It's a stinker, guys.

Gina: 45:44

Yeah, yeah, we're back.

Nicola: 45:49

Go ahead. Well, I was going to say so. So management has been something that's just been not valued and and one way to say that and that's what's caused all of this craziness, much exacerbated by COVID and everybody leaving jobs, not wanting to work their jobs, not putting any effort into their jobs. And I think that this empathy is definitely, as you know, I agree with people who say the future of management and the future of business is about being more empathetic, and I'm also so sick of all these people who are talking about culture being like sending people zoom, giving people the opportunity to have zoom beers with their boss on Friday at five o'clock.

Gina: 46:29

Who the hell?

Nicola: 46:29

would ever want to do that and sending people stock boxes with the company logo like that's not company.

Amy: 46:35

Is this the toxic positivity that we're hitting like? Are we hitting straight into a segue for toxic positivity, right?

Gina: 46:41

now that's. That's that's Nicholas. Baby, go for it. Amy, go for toxic positive. Let me just let me just preface this If any company would like to send me a company branded charcuterie board, I will gladly accept it. I will eat it on zoom, I will shout the company out. But I don't want to work for your company. I just want the free charcuterie board.

Amy: 47:07

So if anyone wants to provide that, I'm. I need a charcuterie board to hey, the only one that gets some kind of remorse.

Gina: 47:16

No, I'm saying I have the idea first, so you know, first come, first serve anyway. So well, I understand, amy, you're saying like. Like, I'm just saying, hey, if someone wants to give me like free, like a whole bushel of peanut M&M's and some pepperoni and a couple crackers, I'm here for it, but not Working there.

Nicola: 47:36

Not because, like, hey, you're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, I can't do that for you though I'm, you know, but you'll do a great job. I can't help you with that question, but you'll do a great job.

Gina: 47:49

And here's your tub of peanut M&M's. Yeah, so I think that's the part that Nicola really becomes alive at with the toxic positivity. So why don't you take it away? What you're seeing with toxic positivity?

Nicola: 48:06

Yeah, that's now, that's new, Now, that's insightful. All of this other stuff is kind of recycled.

Gina: 48:15

It's just rebranded, it's been there, it's just been rebranded.

Nicola: 48:20

It talks of positivity. That is insightful and new, because that's stuff that's been used to make people feel inadequate, to put up blocks against people being managed or invested in, and that is the things that prey on, that prevent teams. I'm a bottom line person, right, so that is things that take away from the bottom line. So there's a book by Amy Edmondson called the power of psychological safety in teams, and it doesn't speak directly to this. I don't recall, but she does.

Nicola: 49:01

You know there's all this evidence out that says, yes, diversity in teams does make teams better and more innovative, and all that translates into better profitability. Now you're speaking a language that people will listen to. Yes, having teams where people feel psychologically safe to make mistakes, to speak up when things aren't necessarily going to be all the times positive or all the times in line with what other people think, that is going to be better and that's going to be drive more innovation and that translates into the bottom line, which is a language that people will listen to. And if you just say empathy, it's kind of like, oh well, that's this this year's new trend towards work.

Gina: 49:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but are you know?

Nicola: 49:47

that's what HR is pushing. But I'm driving the bottom line and I know I'm not. What does it do for me? If you talk about it in a framework that has evidence that supports it's going to my bottom line and listen, and that's here.

Nicola: 50:04

So, connecting toxic positivity to negatively impacting teams because people don't feel safe. Connecting DEI to negative profits because people who teams who are not diverse, don't provide you with diverse thoughts when you're serving a diverse client base. And linking toxic positivity to something that is not as innovative or strong as you would get if you have a safety, safe, psychological workspace. So, yes, we are getting somewhere and that toxic positivity linked to psychological safety of teams and how it can improve your bottom line is insightful and I love that You're not just you're not just glomming onto this because it's something that you've experienced and it's. I love that you're glomming onto this, not just because it's something that bugs you, but it is something that can be really powerful If we, if we can get it talked about in the right way and get it across in the right way, and I think that's the I took all the wind out of your sales.

Nicola: 51:06

By talking about money, you're like, yeah, no no, but like.

Gina: 51:10

But how does, how does toxic positivity Like? We know that it it affects people's. You know productivity, we know that. But I sometimes like what? What toxic positivity examples have you experienced? Like, because I think sometimes we kind of can get in the weeds with talking about these big heady concepts.

Amy: 51:35

Yeah, that's right.

Gina: 51:37

And you happen to be exceptionally intelligent. So for the kids in the back like myself, what are some actual examples that you personally have experienced that left you scratching your head and being like Because toxic positivity to me can come off as quite confusing. Because you're like wait, they're being nice, but are they? Or like there's just it's sort of like this subtle dance that happens that I can't participate in. I've learned that about myself. I'm not built that way. I'm too direct, I have too much masculine energy. It doesn't work for me but for other people. Give us your experience with it and how it affected you.

Nicola: 52:23

OK. So I think the most subtle one is having your ideas sidelined. So if everyone's saying, let's brainstorm which, by the way, has been proven not to be particularly effective everybody in a room throws up ideas. And if yours is not given, let's say you have a really good idea, but everyone's putting up stickies and you were not able to articulate it particularly well on a sticky and people are sorting them out, they're putting you into different things. They just say, oh, this is a good idea, and they put it sort of randomly under a other column or don't really fully understand it, and they're not able to say, oh, I get, this is. Oh, this is just a rehash of item B, instead of saying, or yeah, oh, this is really good too, without fully understanding it.

Nicola: 53:23

So there's an analogy where somebody has an idea where it's not an alignment, it's not something that fits with the general crowd, and you have someone who doesn't feel psychologically safe to say that's not what I said, that's not what I meant. This is a little bit different, because they know that everyone's going to look at them and go what? That would put us in a whole different direction. And you want to say yeah, but you're sort of getting pulled along like Sam and upstream to go in this one direction and you're missing out on an opportunity to think about somebody who thinks a little differently. So that's something that in the workplace it's a group thing. So that's toxic positivity as a group thing.

Nicola: 54:13

I'm going to go back to my little bingo chart here, because if you're thinking about, let's look at so if you have an overly secure peer in here in my example is I'm going to freeze you out. So let's think I can think of many times where people have kind of there's either been unspoken rules that I didn't know about, that people didn't necessarily want to tell me about, where they'll just say, oh yeah, we're going to have you work with this person, they're great, and I get in a group with them, and they're like I'm like this person sucks, but what is it?

Gina: 54:58

I think that's like, yeah, I love that example because I think everyone could relate to that. You hear all these accolades about someone. They're so smart, they know what they're doing and then this has happened to me many times. I'm like how did this person get in this position?

Amy: 55:16

Is it just me. I thought Kristen had this job right now yeah is it me?

Gina: 55:19

Am I the dumb one Am?

Amy: 55:21

I not understanding something.

Gina: 55:23

It really makes you feel isolated. I work with a lot of people who I'm like. How are you still in the same job and having time for it Exactly?

Nicola: 55:35

And it's either. Sometimes it's something as simple as oh, nobody told you that person is best friends with went to college with our chief operating officer, or it's I've always loved working with them, and it's like the emperor has no clothes. Or it's something like oh, they had some horrible disease, or their kid has some horrible disease, and it's like, OK, I'll just do all the work.

Amy: 56:06

I'm just sticking all the things off the bloody bingo board. Gina, that's my goal.

Gina: 56:14

That's the thing. Still like, where Nikola and I met it was like all of the above, like they were either related, Like they were either all from the same family or brother-in-law, sister-in-law or cousin-in-law, or they all were from the same church group from the Midwest, and it's like it created this thing where it was, or someone's got a debilitating mental health thing. They're having a new thing, Every other month. It was like someone had something going on.

Gina: 56:45

I was the only one. I feel like I was the only one who never was sick and I was like, oh, I got a cold this weekend, but I feel better now and that was it. I was like I slept through it. Thank God for my nanny. Oh no, but this is the one thing that I love to harp on. Nikola's probably sick of me hearing me saying it, please do share.

Gina: 57:06

The thankful Thursdays that we had. So this is like the best example of toxic positivity, I feel like, because it's so like simple and clear cut. So on Slack and the company Slack, that where Nikola and I met on Thursdays, you would like put in this channel, the Slack channel, like something you're grateful for. So most people would be like I'm so grateful I get to work for a company where my best friends and neighbors are working to, or I'm so grateful that I can work outside and I can work from home, and it's like all, like the people who are cronies, they're all like harding each other's things and then, like me or Nikola would be like I'm really grateful for my resilience as a single mom, and it's like crickets or like I don't think either one of us ever said that, but we would say something oh no, I've got one.

Amy: 58:03

That I've got an example. I went to the dump like the landfill.

Gina: 58:08

To like throw shit out.

Amy: 58:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and then OK. So a little bit of context. I videoed the trip because I was going to put it to my Instagram page, right? So I put it at high speed and videoed the trip. Because what's interesting about our dump?

Gina: 58:25

this is a total weird segue but anyway, I'm like why are we talking about garbage dump? I want to hear it.

Amy: 58:31

OK, so our dump is beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful. It does not look like a dump because they cover it with grass, so it's a mountain Like. It looks like a beautiful valley and a beautiful mountain. But you know, dig two meters in and you're like.

Gina: 58:49

And you're like OK, dirty diapers.

Amy: 58:51

Yeah, you got dirty diapers, but they made it in such a way that we harvest the methane, like it's really a beautiful place to go and it's beautiful to go for walks. It's got a bit of a stench, obs.

Gina: 59:04

Beautiful. It has a bit of a decaying stench, but it's a stench, it's a smell, but it's not as bad as like a dump right.

Amy: 59:14

So I videoed it and I shared it to the Thankful Thursday and I was like I'm really thankful that I live in New Zealand, where they have taken the time to effectively manage their environmental management, essentially because look at how beautiful this dump is Crickets.

Gina: 59:35

And I'm like.

Amy: 59:37

What. It was like Crickets and I'm like, oh my Lord, oh my God, look at the place it's beautiful.

Nicola: 59:48

So well, that's kind of like I Thank you. I've heard, I've I've had a friend who said, yeah, I really love working with a company that talks about having Christian values. And I'm like, yeah, because you're Christian and right, everybody's, everybody's really nice and everybody's you know like, knows each other's families, and I'm like, yeah, but that's nice for you because it wouldn't be nice for, like an outsider, I still have the video, right yeah.

Amy: 1:00:24

Hold on.

Gina: 1:00:26

Oh yes, please Sure.

Nicola: 1:00:28

Sure, and then I'll give you my bingo and you can put it in the notes Also.

Gina: 1:00:32

I just want to let you know that as a child growing up in like the 70s, the late 70s and early 80s, my dad used to take me to the town dump out. So we had a second house out in the Hamptons before it became like chic and we would like, on the weekends we would go there and we would like we would literally have fun like poking around, not like the garbage but like you know, like the household items, like there were separate areas for where you would dump things and like you'd come home with like little treasures, like you know you could find like a doll's, like crib or something for your doll, like someone threw out, you know. And that was some of like the best summer memories I've had, like as a little kid with my dad, you know. So it's like not all dumps are bad. If I had been working at that company, nikola, at the time that you posted that, I would have been like I'm a fan of dumps, yeah.

Nicola: 1:01:22

Yeah, the town of.

Amy: 1:01:23

Wellesley.

Nicola: 1:01:24

I've just emailed it to you.

Amy: 1:01:25

I've just emailed it to the both of you and I'm very curious to see what you think.

Gina: 1:01:31

OK, ok, ok. So tell us what you're doing now, amy. Tell us, so we know you like to match people like, especially newly graduated. Oh my god, is this like to niffle work? Ooh, could you start a tender for work? Start an app, Amy. Oh my god, we've just oh.

Amy: 1:01:51

No aswell. Oh my God. Like you swipe left and right, you choose the employer. The employer's got to put this thing down and then, if it's a match, you get an interview. That would be cool, oh my God that would be so fun. Have we just made you a million dollars, like, isn't this what's just happened? Okay, hold on Copyright, gina and Nicola, just yeah copyright. Yeah, yeah, yeah, how have people not done that? I would be so.

Gina: 1:02:25

There's too many like nuances and I think that's where Amy comes in right, like when I was trying to get a consulting gig. It's like I have such good experience but I wasn't always getting interviews because I think I wasn't using the right words for the algorithm that the HR Like. There's so many other factors that go into it that I, like I, wouldn't have known if I didn't hire someone outside to help me?

Amy: 1:02:55

How did you find the job with our toxic workplace?

Gina: 1:03:00

Because we got interviewed with someone else who knew them and and they said you're too advanced and experienced for our company, but maybe you could work for this company.

Nicola: 1:03:11

This crappy company.

Gina: 1:03:13

Yeah, exactly. So explain what you're doing and how it affects people now in a good way.

Nicola: 1:03:23

So what I do. In a lot of ways, what I do, what I tell people I do, is I sell confidence. So part of what I do is explain how, on the other side, people should not take what they're getting from companies seriously. So, personally, they should take it seriously. I tell everybody that if I was the CEO of every company that they apply to, if they had time, would reach out personally and say thank you for applying to my company, because it's part of their job to make it an attractive place to work. And that's something that especially new grads do not get.

Nicola: 1:04:03

And career trans people incurred transition. Do not forget and you don't. The thing about this isn't necessarily toxic, but the thing that happens with a resume or any kind of application that comes in is you know it gets printed out and it slides me on your desk. Or you know the person in HR realizes that the candidate went to college with the person on the trading floor that they have a crush on. So they're like oh, before I pass this on, I'm going to send it up to Jamie and see if I feel noticed me and said about I mean, you never know what, how stuff happens. I mean stuff as ridiculous as that can happen, with your resume getting no attention or it gets put into a pile. You know, I've had a candidate who works at Pixar, who applied in October, heard nothing until the first week in May. By the third week in May he had in May he had moved to San Francisco and was working for Pixar. I mean, the stuff is so bizarre, you don't know.

Nicola: 1:05:01

And anyway, the value that I add is I really think that most people don't realize is that when they're presenting themselves so do you know when you're presenting yourself and your value for example if you were on Upwork or if you were sending over your resume you're just presenting your, the value that you have.

Nicola: 1:05:21

The next step, and the step that most people miss, is to present the value that you add to that company, to that role.

Nicola: 1:05:29

So let me say, for example, if you, if there was 100 jobs out there for you and exactly meet, met your profile and all these companies were coming and you got 20 resumes, 20 companies a day sending applications to you saying please take my job, 18 of them said here's why you know we're a great company because of a, b and c. And there was two that said we're a great company for you, gina, because we are, have these resources for working moms and we specifically value your specific skills and we offer you these three things, benefits that we know are important to you. Aren't those two things? To resume, aren't there's two company letters going to go right to the top of your pile? So what I help people do is present themselves uniquely in a way that says this isn't just how I add value, but this is how I can add value for you, and that follows through all the way through sending a cover letter, through asking for references.

Gina: 1:06:36

And cover letters still exist, though like I feel like they're so outdated.

Amy: 1:06:41

Again, I'm recruiting right now and I would say that one of the key things I'm looking for is summarize your stuff for me in the cover letter, because the CV just tells you what the shit you've done, Like great, but I want to know what's connected you to this job. Why are you connected? Why are you wanting to come and work with us today with the skills that you have? So the one person that I'm interviewing, something that really stuck out to me was their connection to the organization itself. So we do.

Amy: 1:07:24

I'm trying to summarize that in a way that does not highlight essentially who they are. I don't have mentioned them before, but essentially it's an organization that deals with maternal health and children. So tell me about why you want to connect with this, because the work that we do is so specialized and so it's such a gift that we give to the community and it's such a beautiful program. Why, why are you connected? Because it's hard to say, oh, I'm just kind of there for the job. It's like no, for this you've got to be connected, and I want to see that in your cover letter.

Gina: 1:08:02

Tell me. But I think that's what Amy's saying, whereas I'm saying I don't give a shit about the cover letter, because most cover letters are like I really want to come work for you because I think I'm smart and I'll do a good job. There's a difference, and I think that's what Amy's added value would be. She would tailor it so that it would be like okay, well, why do you want to come work for us? Well, A, we're adults, we need money to survive. So that's kind of a dumb question. But why am I a good fit? And I think that's really the added value, at least what I'm understanding. You're saying, Amy, is that correct?

Nicola: 1:08:42

Yeah, yeah, the most important question in any interview is why do you want this job? Because in my experience, in my many years of hiring, it was always the same story. It was we'd bring in seven or eight candidates first round, four or five candidates second round, two or three candidates last round, and I'd bring in my team and say okay, you guys, what do you think? Who should we hire? And everybody would go. They're all kind of the same, but this one wants it the most and the job would always go to the person who wants it the most. And of all of the validation I get on my methodology and the thanks that I get from clients that get jobs, the most commented on is that one. Because when they get the job and they're in it a few weeks, people say, wow, you got this job because you were the one that wanted it the most. And it's not rocket science If you want it the most, you're going to be the one that works the hardest at getting it, at keeping it and at doing a good job. So my whole methodology, every part of it, breaks down into three pieces. You need to prove that you understand what the job is, because who wants to hire someone is going to be like I'm not doing this, this is not what I signed up for, I didn't get it when I applied and go in two weeks. The second is that you can do the job. That's the standard one, based on the skills that you have. And the third is that you want it. And that starts with the cover letter, in my opinion, which is I template everybody's cover letters so that the first paragraph is very brief why do you want this job? Explain to me how this job fits your skills and that you understand what you would be doing. The third is kind of a restatement in bullet form, so you have a little more creativity of what your skills are. And then the bottom is why do you want this company? Basically, in the first paragraph you take keywords from the job description, because that's what an author or a reader is going to be looking for. And then the last one you just take something from because you don't want to do too much research until you're going to get an interview. Just take something from the website that they're proud of. Say I love that your company has this commitment to social responsibility, or you're opening markets up in Asia and I speak a little bit of Chinese. Whatever it is that they're proud of. Mention a case study of white paper and mention it so they know you've done your research and you want to work for them.

Nicola: 1:11:11

You're not just looking for work. That also takes case of just sending a resume. I think is just pushing a button. So if you're just sending a resume, I call it spraying and praying. So there's no effort put into it and there's nothing to say. You're not just taking everybody and companies are like people they want to feel special. They want to know you took a little time to if you get past the first screen. They want to know that you spent a little time thinking about them. I agree with that. Well, where?

Gina: 1:11:40

can people?

Nicola: 1:11:41

find you. Companies are like people. I can't believe I said that, but it's the same psychology. You get it.

Gina: 1:11:48

Well, companies are like people, because they're made up of individuals who are human. Yeah, so where can people find you if they want help, or to read your book or give us all the good stuff?

Nicola: 1:12:02

Yeah, I'm a job coach Amycom and I am on Facebook and Instagram at job coach Amycom. Tiktok is job coach Amy underscore and Twitter is job coach Amy F, and my book is available everywhere and both in Kindle format on Amazon and written. It makes a great gift for anyone who's graduating this year, and there's also a lot of information in there that's good for people at any career stage, and I have some online courses that are going to be put up soon too, as well as some specific aspects of things like. I think references is coming online. References used to be kind of a rubber stamp and they are not anywhere anymore. They're a really good way to distinguish yourself as an exceptional candidate, so that's one of the first things I'm going to be putting up. That sounds awesome.

Amy: 1:12:53

I love that.

Gina: 1:12:54

Thank you I wish that was there when I was trying to get a job, although I was recruited right out of college, so that was not so bad.

Nicola: 1:13:03

Yeah, you were this one of stinkers. I wished I could have been and wasn't, but gave me life purpose, so that's good.

Amy: 1:13:10

There you go. Awesome. Thanks, amy, and we really love speaking to you.

Gina: 1:13:14

Thank you, yeah it's really fun, you guys, thank you. Thanks so much for your time. Bye, take care. Bye.