S2E7: Journey of Resilience: Ginny's Transition from Toxic Workplaces to Personal Growth

In a confessional-style narration, Ginny, a former medical aesthetics executive turned public speaker, life coach, and author, bravely bares all about the gruelling realities of toxic corporate culture. Ginny’s experience in this high-stakes environment and her subsequent transition to a more fulfilling career provides a powerful narrative that you won’t want to miss.

Embarking on a journey with Ginny, you’ll delve into her personal betrayals and deceptive practices that she faced at a professional level. The tales of her relationship with a manipulative colleague and her struggle with a toxic romance reveal the dark side of personal relationships. But the narrative doesn't end on a negative note. Instead, Ginny's story unfolds into an inspiring tale of resilience, growth, and self-awareness. In doing so, she offers valuable insights into how such experiences can significantly shape personal development.

But Ginny’s revelations aren't confined to her experiences alone. She shares practical advice on navigating hostile work environments and setting boundaries, offering tried an

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Transcript

Nicola: 0:42

Ginny, would you like to introduce your beautiful self to us and our audience?

Ginny: 0:49

I would love to. Well, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. So I a little bit about me. Let's start with the fun stuff. I love to travel. I love to travel and see places all over the world. Australia and New Zealand are on my list, fyi, like very high on my list which I have not been to and I have a beautiful, perfect red that's like a ruby color. Cavalier King Charles Spaniel named Francine. So if you hang out with me on Instagram you will get lots of photos and videos of her. She's gorgeous and amazing. From a work perspective, I am a keynote speaker. I'm a motivational keynote speaker. I'm a number one bestselling author. My book is called You're my Favorite right here. I have a podcast called Drinking with Jen, and I'm also a life coach, so kind of full circle. And I do all that now after exiting corporate America, from having a really successful career spending over 20 years.

Gina: 1:56

Okay.

Nicola: 1:57

So I love that the podcast that you're with Jen, because my next door neighbor and I are like genetics.

Ginny: 2:04

Oh fun, Well I'm Jen.

Gina: 2:07

Yeah, but Jen is such a disgusting alcohol.

Nicola: 2:11

No, you got to have it with like good stuff, Like you got to have a good. I've got like a seven yon blanc Jen. It is divine, I don't think we have?

Gina: 2:20

do we have any of those in America? I feel like I've never heard of seven.

Nicola: 2:24

Oh, no you will definitely have like small batch Jenneries. But there's this awesome book I used to read as a kid called Just Jen and her name was Ginny and it was the loveliest book. It was such a good, strong female protagonist and it was all about how she kind of navigated her teenage years. So I'm kind of loving all of the connections there. Yes, I love that.

Ginny: 2:52

I'll have to check that out.

Gina: 2:54

I love that. So can you tell us specifically what industry you were in in corporate America before you branched out on your own.

Ginny: 3:01

Yeah, I was in medical aesthetics for over 18 years that was the majority of it. So I worked for some skincare companies there's Francine, yeah. So I worked, yeah, in medical aesthetics was the bulk of that career.

Gina: 3:18

Okay, so, okay. So medical aesthetics. So for people who might not know what that means, can you like be very simplistic with your description of what medical aesthetics is?

Ginny: 3:33

Sure, so if you think of, like dermatologists, plastic surgeons, med spas, these are kind of the companies or the different categories that provide medical aesthetic treatment. So, and that can be of that, like that can be a wide variety of things. It can be surgeries, it can be skincare, medical grade skincare, it can be injectables, it can be devices like laser devices. So there can be a lot of different things that fall in that category.

Ginny: 4:03

Okay, I worked on the vendor side. So I didn't work in an office or anything. I worked on the vendor side of things.

Gina: 4:09

So what does that mean for you? Like you were in the office, you weren't out there doing like pharmaceutical sales sort of.

Ginny: 4:18

Or were you? Yeah, so the bulk of my career I was doing education, so I'd educate the people that work in the practices, or I worked with a lot of corporate accounts. So I was usually in leadership roles. Like I said, either education or I managed teams or I worked with corporate accounts, which were some of the groups that spanned. You know that had multiple locations spanning across, you know, a wide area.

Gina: 4:43

Got it Okay, so tell us about what you liked and what you didn't like there and what you found to be toxic and what were some of your red flags, and so on.

Ginny: 4:56

Okay, when to start. You know so much of it was good and I've met a lot of really great people. Some of my closest friends I've met over the years from working with them, you know, in some of these organizations. So there's definitely a lot of good. What I do think is really interesting and fascinating is like I've exited and I've gone on this like healing and growing journey, and all the work that I do now is recognizing that I am a self-diagnosed person that is in narcissistic abuse recovery and I love helping people with that. But when I look back and I think now I'm like, well, no wonder I ended up in aesthetics. I mean, it is like there's so much vanity and I think that there is probably a lot of narcissistic behaviors and tendencies for a lot of the people that are in the industry, and so it's just really fascinating to me when we think about the choices that we make and why and what's familiar. But you know a lot of it I loved.

Ginny: 5:58

I traveled a lot. You work a lot of hours. There's a lot of conferences and events and shows, so you work a lot of nights and weekends. I was traveling all over. I traveled most weeks for probably 12 to 15 years. So on the road, a lot and a lot of people. You know, when I meet people traveling they're like, oh, you travel a lot. What's that like Is that Either people would be like that must be exhausting or they're like that must be so awesome, and people kind of glamorize travel and traveling for work, but for me it just became my norm. I always said it was like my commute Instead of just driving to work.

Ginny: 6:34

I had to get on a plane to go to work. I mean, I have a lot of stories of things that I can share, but I think that there was, in one of the companies I worked at in particular, a lot of toxic leadership people that were unqualified. There's a lot of talking about culture, but not it actually being what they talk about.

Gina: 7:02

If that makes sense oh, I love this topic. Yes, I'm so there with you. Can you give us some examples or stories around that? Because that's something that Nicola and I experienced like talking about how healthy the culture is, but then when it came down to it was like totally the opposite.

Ginny: 7:19

So, interestingly enough, I decided for this week my podcast episode that's going to come out on drinking with Jen is about work-life balance, because I don't think it exists. I think it's a big farce.

Gina: 7:33

Not in America.

Nicola: 7:34

Not in.

Gina: 7:34

America Come to New Zealand. Yeah, that's a caveat, not in America. In America we are just like grind, grind, hustle, like that's the culture we have here.

Ginny: 7:46

But I think a lot of people and a lot of leaders will preach work-life balance, and so when you're in a culture that you are expected to work all of the time and like even when I was leading teams, I'd be like, oh, work-life balance, but then I would be working nights and working weekends and working on vacation, and so I think that's one of the things too that's like a telltale sign is are they practicing what they're preaching? And if they tell you, oh, we have really great work-life balance, but then you see these behaviors, that doesn't align. So when you start to see the misalignment of those things, one of the things that was really interesting is one of the companies I worked for. They talk about how great they treat their employees and I actually had some experiences that were not so great and I one year, at our national sales meeting, all of the wrong people were announced to win President's Club, and when you're in sales, president's Club is the award that you work all year towards and you win either.

Nicola: 8:50

A Is that like the top tier, like that's the shit, you want to be there?

Gina: 8:53

It's like recognition like you met, like you met or exceeded all your quotas right or like something Sales targets.

Ginny: 9:00

Yeah, like you are at the top of the sales force for that year, whatever. Every company does it differently, but most companies it's like you're in like the top 10%, so then you earn this, you know, really nice trip or whatever. Well, they announced all of the wrong people.

Gina: 9:16

How does that even happen?

Ginny: 9:19

There were some miscalculations internally and so people started questioning it. They went back and they never apologized like or acknowledged it even publicly to the entire sales force. They just kind of behind the scenes maneuvered and like Like straightened it out. Kind of straightened it out behind the scenes, and part of that was I got a call about six weeks later from my boss saying hey, you know, in the miscalculations of the award trips we actually found out and figured out that we overpaid you last year. So you're going to need to write us a check for $24,600. And I'm sure, like you, didn't just have that sitting around, right.

Gina: 10:20

You probably did something like with the majority of your bonus. I mean, if you did have it sitting around kudos. But my dumb ass would have been like what can I buy, damn girl.

Ginny: 10:28

But also they expected me to do that, but then minus taxes, right, but then they wanted me to make them whole after I paid crazy amount of taxes on it.

Ginny: 10:43

So then, to top it off, after that conversation, I tried to fight it and I'm going to give you guys a really good petty princess moment I've never talked about this before like literally my one friend who was an attorney at the time and was helping me with the process it's so funny I'll get to that in a second. But then the vice president of sales at the time, so my boss's boss, called me and he goes. Didn't you notice? Like putting the onus and the blame on me?

Gina: 11:19

I was like double check your commission or whatever.

Ginny: 11:22

Right, and it was, and it happened over the year, so it wasn't like one paycheck was like chunk of it was like yeah $50,000.

Gina: 11:30

Right, it was like a couple whatever here and there, Okay.

Ginny: 11:33

It was over like four quarters of a time period and it's like so now this is my fault. And I was like well, no, because I've, I trust my organization to do the right thing and to make it. You know, to not make mistakes like this, and I'm not an accountant Like no, so no, that's not my job. My job is to perform well in my role, yeah Right, and so they. They would not rely on, they would not, they would not work with me on it, nothing.

Gina: 12:07

So what I yeah.

Ginny: 12:09

So what they did do was they allowed me to have it taken out of and split up into two withdrawals, or like they. They read what did they do? They deducted it from my next two bonuses, okay. And so they're like how would you like to have it split up? So I don't remember the exact number. I should have gone back and done this, like let me do this on my phone really quick, because what I did was I did 1,000, no, I did. The first payment was 13,825.80. And they asked me like three times are you sure that's the amount? And the reason I did that is because you, if you look at the numbers on your phone, that spelled fuck you, yes queen.

Ginny: 13:03

F-U-C-K-U. I love it. I mean, it was like, just like the only way that I could, like you know, find some humor and some laughter in a really crappy situation, but yeah.

Nicola: 13:19

Okay, so hold on, so circling back. So you had to pay this money back. Yeah, and you. You got a lawyer, though Did you get any compensation?

Ginny: 14:00

Yeah, was there any like legal Because?

Nicola: 14:02

this is ridiculous.

Ginny: 14:04

No, they have it.

Gina: 14:06

And you could have, you could have done to help yourself in this situation? No, oh my God.

Ginny: 14:12

It was written into. They make you sign every quarter, like the incentive compensation plan, and I had signed it and it does say in there if the company makes a mistake and overpays you, you have to pay it back.

Nicola: 14:23

Oh my God, that is gross. So apparently that?

Gina: 14:26

do you think they have a history of this?

Ginny: 14:28

I don't know. That's what I started to wonder. After that. I was like huh, you put it in, like your, your contracts. Yeah, yeah.

Gina: 14:39

Also, were you supposed to get a president's award?

Ginny: 14:42

I won that year.

Gina: 14:45

I would have won, but then I actually left the company, so I was the number one After they forced you to pay back that money, I would have left too. I would have been like I'm out of here.

Ginny: 14:55

That was part of it. I mean, it was a long time coming, but yeah. So I would have won that year that I had to pay the money back, which to me was like also a really good way to exit. You know, it's like there's no better time to exit than when you're on top.

Gina: 15:10

Yeah, I can't like that's insane. Like why hire people who are going to make accounting mistakes?

Ginny: 15:19

Like yeah, and I think, yeah, I think that I don't think they did anything about that either. Like the person that made all the mistakes, I think that they still are, maybe even still there, I don't know.

Gina: 15:31

This is crazy.

Nicola: 15:32

I know, isn't that wild yeah.

Gina: 15:35

Yeah, that's. I mean like I always am like nobody should fuck with my money, no matter how little or how much I have. Like don't fuck with my money, especially like my livelihood money, Like that's bullshit.

Nicola: 15:46

Oh my.

Gina: 15:46

God, I would probably have. Did you cry? I would have cried. Honestly I would have cried, I would have cried.

Ginny: 15:54

I don't remember if I cried, I just remember being so like flabbergasted, like just so blown away and shocked at the egregiousness of the mistake and then the trying to flip it on to me, and you know, like I'm guest lighting, all right, like they're just guest lighting, you're like, oh, how is this my fault. Yeah, it was really. Yeah, it was a crazy situation. I had never experienced anything like that.

Gina: 16:27

Did you ever hear of that happening to anyone else at that particular company?

Ginny: 16:34

Well, I'm assuming it happened to other people in that same time period, who also you know, when they called the wrong people right, Because that kind of like they were a trickle. Yeah, and sales reps and sales managers. I imagine that there's other people that also dealt with that that same year.

Gina: 16:53

Okay.

Ginny: 16:55

So this is just yeah.

Gina: 16:58

I'm like it's not like they're like oh, by the way, overpaid you $200. Like no big deal.

Nicola: 17:03

This is like 20K. This is like a substantive amount of money, that's a huge amount of money $24,600. I feel, like this has been to your brain for the rest of eternity.

Gina: 17:15

Oh, it would have been burnt into my brain. That happened to me oh my. God For sure yeah.

Ginny: 17:19

You don't forget a mistake like that, that's for sure.

Gina: 17:21

No, Okay, so that's insanity. So I feel like, so you know, now there's all these like like either dramatizations or whatever of like the whole pharmaceutical not that you're really in pharmaceuticals, but I feel like it's a very close cousin, yeah.

Ginny: 17:41

It was a medical device which is like a cousin.

Gina: 17:45

Yeah. So and we see all these like crazy you know shows like on Netflix and Hulu, like about, especially about the opioid pandemic. Not saying that you had anything to do with that, but just like the convoluted Ginny started the opioid pandemic, it was Ginny's fault.

Nicola: 18:02

Ginny's fault.

Ginny: 18:05

For the record, I never sold an opioid, no I know you didn't, we just took a turn there.

Gina: 18:11

Plot twist, I love it.

Nicola: 18:14

Nice, wow. And like FBI shows up at Ginny's house, they're like um, here we are.

Gina: 18:22

So we heard the origin of the opioid crisis. Well, I did. I don't know if you spoke about any of that.

Ginny: 18:28

I did work for a company that sold opioids and they were part of the. They're part of the whole opioid Pandemic.

Gina: 18:36

What do you?

Ginny: 18:37

call it Litigation, I called it a pandemic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I meant, I meant yeah, anyway, any, so I think so.

Gina: 18:47

My, I think my point is is like in a lot of the dramatizations that you watch on whatever you're watching, you see like a lot of dubious sort of behind the scene, like really insane stuff happening, like people fudging, like you know, efficacy things like that, or like crazy markups, like was there any of that in general, like with with that you even saw. Maybe you didn't see it, but you just have a hunch Like was there anything like that?

Ginny: 19:16

On an individual basis. There are people that would use samples to reduce cost, which is completely illegal. Wait, but what does that mean?

Nicola: 19:30

Okay, so I'm guessing that you get samples to give to people like for some shit.

Gina: 19:37

Your vendors like the doctors or clinics and they're going to taste it out on what themselves know, the nurses.

Nicola: 19:45

They're going to test it out on someone, right, but then they're using it on the patients, which they're not allowed to do because it's a sample.

Ginny: 19:53

So it's more actually the ownership of that, of the sample. So samples are for training, demonstration, education and evaluation. So those are the four reasons why a rep or a manager or a company representative would be able to give samples to a doctor or a healthcare provider that is authorized in that state to be able to sign for samples. Once they give them the samples, the doctor can do whatever they want with them, but the rep is only supposed to give them for training, demonstration, education and evaluation and they're all labeled, not for resale. This is a sample Like. They're all labeled like that, and so a rep should never give it for to reduce the cost or for the doctor's wife or anything like that. But they would do that. There were certain things that we would hear where they would be using the samples to reduce the cost.

Gina: 20:53

Well, if you buy 20, I'll give you five and wheeling and dealing kind of that way, like it's like a gift with purchase, so that they don't feel so bad, kind of yeah, yeah, which to me, if you're doing that, you're just a really bad salesperson If you have to do like if you buy this, you'll get this.

Ginny: 21:12

Or you don't know the programs well enough, or you're just not. You're just not doing it right.

Nicola: 21:20

But are the samples the same strength as, like, the actual product?

Ginny: 21:23

Yeah.

Nicola: 21:24

Like all the same.

Ginny: 21:25

Yeah, that's exactly the same Okay.

Nicola: 21:28

I'm like, oh my God, there's just so many ethical things here that I can. I'm just like wait what.

Gina: 21:33

No, because isn't it like like okay. So I remember I got samples of some something I don't remember, but like pills from like my primary. Like they were like oh, I have, it might have been Zoloft, like years ago. They were like we have samples, we'll get you started with those. Then go fill your prescription. Like that's totally ethical, right, yeah, yeah, okay. So it's like. So it's like if he was saying like I'm going to sell you all this generic Zoloft and then give you additional freebies on top of it yeah, sweet deal.

Gina: 22:04

That's where it gets fuzzy.

Ginny: 22:06

Yeah, so where it gets hairy is like what you're talking about with prescriptions, like it doesn't really apply.

Gina: 22:13

It can't happen as much.

Ginny: 22:14

Right, yeah, you don't. They're not selling the product, but in aesthetics you're buying the product and then turning around and selling it to the patient for cash, right, it's not covered by insurance or anything like that. So that's where the finances you know kind of like that crazy part come in, come into play.

Gina: 22:33

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. All right, so you never. So, was that the most unethical thing that you saw in general, people doing that Gosh unethical. Just define unethical, so I actually had you tell us what you think is unethical, and then we'll broaden our definition for you.

Ginny: 22:52

I love it, so I had a coworker. We were all at a meeting in South Beach, miami.

Gina: 23:04

Right by me.

Ginny: 23:06

And we're. You know we all went out and you know we had everybody's been drinking and whatever. And this coworker, who's married with a child, goes to hand me his hotel room key and says my room is room number blah, blah, blah I'll be up in a few minutes. And I was like no, what are you talking about? And he was like whoa, whoa, whoa. I must have you know, completely misread. And I was like yeah, you did. I've never given any indication that I'm interested in you. You're married, you have a kid, you're my coworker. I'm leaving and going back to my hotel and fast forward. Like two years later, at another meeting in Fort Lauderdale, happened to also be in Florida. I'm saying that.

Gina: 24:41

I just learned to get all the weirdness.

Ginny: 24:43

I don't know, same guy. It just happened to be where the meetings were Like. Meetings happen a lot in like Florida, california, it's just kind of where they where they happen to be. Same guy hands me his room key again and was like and I was like no, we did this before. Remember yeah, remember Well. And his response was insane. He goes this is the second time. You've done this to me. What?

Gina: 25:12

So that's his nickel, as she's like. I'm sorry, yeah, what yeah? The second time you've done this to him.

Ginny: 25:22

Yes, yeah.

Gina: 25:23

Interesting.

Ginny: 25:24

Yeah, did you ever?

Gina: 25:26

Yeah, go ahead.

Ginny: 25:28

Oh, he later on became my boss. That was fun.

Gina: 25:31

Oh.

Ginny: 25:32

Yeah, yeah, I think I'm going to tie in. Oh my gosh, I have a lot of stories about him. I have two more stories about him, if you want to hear, which are fascinating.

Nicola: 25:43

Let's hear it.

Gina: 25:43

So here Nikola's, like Nikola's already exhausted, it's like 5 am there and she's already exhausted from hearing this story.

Ginny: 25:50

But this is the kind of stuff like that we dealt with, you know, so fast forward, then like another year, year, yeah, maybe only like one more year.

Gina: 26:03

No, tell me he does it a third time.

Ginny: 26:05

He did not do it a third time, but I get a phone call from him and I was always friendly with him still. I mean, I had to work with him.

Gina: 26:12

Did you ever talk about the elephant in the room where you like, like hey, just want to clear the air?

Ginny: 26:17

Or was it just like?

Gina: 26:18

don't ask, don't tell.

Ginny: 26:19

No, yeah, I think, just because I'm like you know, I'm a professional and like, why even acknowledge it? Like why even acknowledge his bad behavior? I don't know. I just felt like kind of take the high road type of thing, so fast forward to the end of the next year, and he calls me. It's the end of the year, it's like the end of the quarter.

Ginny: 26:37

I'm like thriving in my role. Like my role. At that point I think I had been in it for a few years. It was just like I could do it like the back of my hand. I mean, it was just like I was dialed in, I had it, I was, I had really good balance in life. And so he calls me. He's like you know, like how are you doing, how are you liking your role? And I was like dude, I'm bored, I'm just like on autopilot, this is great. Like da, da, da, da, da. Like I mean it's totally fine, like I'm not challenged. You know, I'll have to probably figure something else out at some point, but for right now, like it's working for me.

Ginny: 27:14

And at that time I was with my ex, who was the catalyst of like writing my book and everything else, and the next day it was announced that he was my boss. So the A-hole was calling me to like get inside scoop and like completely manipulate the situation to see where I was at, knowing that I would be more open with him than if I were the following day, knowing that he was my boss, which I just thought was such an inauthentic, shitty thing to do.

Nicola: 27:51

That's so duplicitous yeah.

Gina: 27:55

So he obviously knew he was getting the promotion by that point yeah.

Ginny: 27:59

And he announced the next day yeah. So, gross, oh God. So then fast forward, and I love how this guy always like okay, I have two more stories about him.

Gina: 28:09

He keeps popping up.

Ginny: 28:11

Well, that's like the repeat offenders that's what they do they're like, they're like whack-a-mole.

Ginny: 28:17

They're like the game of whack-a-mole. They keep putting you like knock them down and then they pop back up, so then. So then, like, fast forward into that year, and I asked because I am always someone who, like, wants to be growing and be developed and know where my areas of opportunity are and like where I'm really strong, so that I can balance or, if I have an area of opportunity, like lean on somebody else and pull from their strengths, like I very much believe in that. So I asked to do a 360, which is a 360 review is where you get either, like, if you're a leader I didn't have any director reports at this time in this role, so it was kind of just like a select group and then they anonymously give you feedback. And I had done this a few times over the years, like when I had a team.

Ginny: 29:04

If you have a team, your team gives you feedback, your directory, you know, like your boss, who you report directly to, and you know whoever else is in the mix. So I do this review, I ask for this 360 review, we send it out, get all the feedback. He calls me and he's like oh man, I just did you such a solid, like I just finished your 360 review, I like you're welcome. Well, what he didn't know was that your direct boss, their feedback is not anonymous and while everyone else rated me fours and fives, he would rate me like a one or a two. One or two is really bad.

Gina: 29:52

So how did he do you a solid?

Ginny: 29:54

He was trying to like take credit for everyone else's like reviews. But he didn't know that I could literally see every single one of his ratings. Every single thing he wrote was not anonymous. And I'll tell you one thing I've always stood against. I'm so sorry.

Gina: 30:12

This is so funny because, like the fact that he called me out of this way to be like I really like, yeah, I did you a solid, I really helped you out here, man, and then it was that, did you please? I hope you cause him out on it.

Ginny: 30:27

Okay, no, I did cry after that. I could not believe that somebody would blindside me, Boldface, lie to me like that so badly. You know someone whoERO you should be able to trust, right, Like you should be able to trust what someone says to you, especially your boss, and I was horrified by it. The other thing that he wrote in there was you need to gossip less. And here's the thing.

Ginny: 30:59

Like this is what I was about to start to say is I am not about gossip. Like, in fact, I would say I am probably one of the people like I think it's why my coaching works so well and my friends and like strangers come and open up to me and share their stories. Like this happens all of the time. People are like you're the only person that I've talked to about this, because I always have the saying of like it's not my story to tell. If people ask me about someone and what they're going through, I'm like it's not my story to tell. And I really feel that way because people were gossiping about my story when I was going through my stuff and I think that like really made me solidify that kind of mentality so much more, because it wasn't anybody's business to be talking about until I made it everybody's business to be talking about and wrote a book about it.

Gina: 31:47

But but that's different.

Ginny: 31:49

That's not your own timeline. Yeah, yeah, that's not your timeline with your narrative.

Gina: 31:54

So, yes, so did you say anything to him Like how did you handle that, did you go to HR, or what happened?

Ginny: 32:01

I didn't go to HR. I'm pretty sure I did talk to him about it, or maybe I didn't, I don't even remember. Honestly, like I think I blocked it out. But I remember I did Like I cried my partner partner at the time, you know I really like I cried to him, I was really upset about it. I just was so blown away that somebody would deceive you so badly like that, like literally call you, tell you how they helped you out, did you a favor, did you a solid, and then did the exact opposite, especially when I was doing it voluntarily for my own development, to really continue to try to grow. But him saying like gossip less, I'm not a gossiper, but what I think would make him mad because he is the biggest gossip around town Like literally on the-.

Gina: 32:50

I call those things like a tell, like where is this coming from, and it was probably his own insecurities and he's like I'm gonna blame it on her.

Ginny: 32:59

Well, what I think it was is if he would come to me and give me information or news or whatever. Oftentimes I would already know and I think that pissed him off. So I think it made him mad that I already knew the information before him the late punish you in your 360 review.

Nicola: 33:20

Yeah, yeah.

Ginny: 33:21

And I didn't tell him Cause I didn't engage in gossip. But people feel comfortable telling me things, but yeah, so those were kind of interesting. Do we know what ever?

Gina: 33:30

happened to him, like what is? Do we know where he landed, did Carmen?

Ginny: 33:35

get him.

Gina: 33:36

Did he get the keys?

Ginny: 33:36

No, he can't Gosh, I don't know, but here's what I can tell you. Like, this was my best way. Here's another like petty princess moment. This was the way that I. It's not getting back by any means.

Ginny: 33:50

So I actually saw him recently at a celebration of life and I was kind of put in a position to end up having to hang out with him in a group and whatever. And it was fine. Like I, it was fine. I knew I wasn't going to see him again or really talk to him again, but for the sake of the group, I entertained and it was fine. It was like I'm fun, okay, so we're all having a good time. And at the end of the night he always called me GP, hey, gp, man, ooh, those are my miss. This was so, oh, two GPs. So he's like man, I just I had such a great time with you today, like this was, this was so awesome man, I've just really I've really missed you. I was like huh, well, that's interesting, considering I haven't heard from you one time in the last three and a half years.

Gina: 34:50

Right, and what did he say?

Ginny: 34:52

He goes. Well, I haven't heard from you either.

Gina: 34:56

You're like, take you back to my face, Okay got.

Nicola: 34:59

it All I said was yeah, and that was, oh, my God this is amazing.

Ginny: 35:07

That was like the mic drop. Yeah, that was the mic drop moment.

Gina: 35:10

Did he ever find out that his like scoring of you, like the rating or whatever in the 360 was trans-?

Nicola: 35:18

Was not anonymous.

Gina: 35:19

Yeah, Did he ever know that? Did he ever figure that out?

Ginny: 35:23

I don't know. Oh gosh, I wish I knew the answer. I wish I knew. Honestly, like I'm so sorry, I should have done my due diligence.

Gina: 35:31

Ah, lee Jenny, I love to have known Cause like just the arrogance on people like that, like workplace bullies, you know like they just yeah, all right. So I know that, like we talked about this in our like vetting call or whatever, what are we calling this now? Our meet and greet Meet and greets.

Nicola: 35:51

Okay, meet and greets. Veting sounds like we're like the fucking police, please.

Gina: 35:55

Like we're actually somebody like serious and it's just me and me, yeah, yeah, please go for it. I mean, we are talking about something serious, but we're very relaxed about it. Okay, so I know you said that you had identification with both myself and Nicola, because you said you didn't realize how bad it was until you left it and then you started seeing all the toxicity around you. Can you tell us what that journey looked like for you?

Ginny: 36:22

Yeah, I think part of it was, you know they very much were a coach and reward on money and things, and so it was very much like coach on money and rewards, practice what you know. Like they don't practice what they preach in leadership. I mean by that there's a lot of you know two-facedness, right, like the like what I just described actually had that with another leader before that she pretended to be my friend and then completely stabbed me in the back, which was also terrible. But I also had some really good leaders I had. One of my best leaders was at that organization but like, for example, there's just this overarching feeling of like that they own you almost. Like you can't have. Like it's okay for people that have kids and families to have interests outside of work, like they're kids, sports and you know that kind of stuff. But if you aren't like, if you don't have kids or a family, like you can't post about your side hustle or your you know, your extracurricular activities, like that's one of the things that I thought about that I was so grateful that my book didn't come out when I worked at that organization, because I just know the chatter that everybody would have been having behind the scenes and fortunately I was still in corporate when my book came out and I had the most incredibly supportive boss at my corporate job.

Ginny: 37:58

She flew out to Minneapolis to come to my book launch. And when I finally got up the courage to tell her about it cause I think I had been conditioned for so long like don't talk about, like anything else, cause that could take away from work A few months before the book came out, her and I were having dinner and I sat down and I told her I was like hey, I just want you to know there's something I've been working on. You're going to start seeing about it and hearing about it. And she was so excited, like so excited for me, and was like people should have interests outside of work. And I was so shocked and blown away by it because of you know, the environment that I had come from.

Ginny: 38:36

And so there's, you know, like it's just it's really interesting. And then like the rewarding based on you know, money and things, like I mean I have all of these things. Like I won jewelry, like really expensive jewelry, I want a Peloton. People won like Louis Vuitton gift certificates. They would do this, but then the second people weren't performing or the you know were questioning the goals of maybe like 40% year over year it was. Then they would come back and talk about how ungrateful and you know it's definitely more of like that stick mentality than carrot. And so for me, too, just part of like my own journey has been things just becoming so much less important and it just not mattering as much anymore. Right, Like you start to find what really is valuable in life and it sheds a light, it shines a light, I should say, on some of that more toxic behavior and environments.

Gina: 39:50

So did I know you started seeing toxic stuff happen personally. What do you think came first? Was it like seeing the toxicity in your workplace or your personal life, or how did that work for you?

Ginny: 40:07

I think there's components of it that I felt at work for a long time, but I think I didn't have really the awareness. Like, for example, there is this one guy who, I mean, slept with everybody and he was in a leadership role and he was just going around and like people were talking about it and knowing about it, but it got like swept under the rug and other people in leadership were burying the bodies for him. Basically, you know, it's like they were, they knew about it but just like kind of turned a blind eye and so like there wasn't ever any correction for bad behavior.

Gina: 40:50

Sure, okay, so, okay, so wait. By the way, did we ever find out what your book is about? I don't even think we talked about it that much in our meet and greet. What's your book about?

Ginny: 41:03

So my book you're my favorite is about my own personal. It's a true story of the shocking and traumatic end to a romantic relationship. I can give you like quick cliff notes, but it really was the thing that sent me on this journey of like growing healing, self-discovery, self-love, made me how was a little bit more about that so much more aware of everything going on in my life the community, the people, all of it. So basically, what happened? I was traveling like, if you think about my life, like I was the quintessential single girl, like I was traveling for work all the time, really career focused, like I know you brought up Netflix earlier kind of like main character energy. I was traveling all over the world with my friends and my free time, you know, spending time with my friends, or mostly my dogs, and living the life. So I get introduced to this guy Chad Chad, I call him Of course you're such a Chad Wait well, that's not his real name.

Ginny: 42:03

No, that's not his real name, but he hates that name, so that's why I used it.

Ginny: 42:08

Okay, great, so I get introduced to him and I was not interested for two reasons A, my life was so great, but then also he had two kids, and that can just get complicated and you know, he broke down the barriers, we start dating and then, of course, I fall in love and then I meet his kids and I fall in love two more times and, before you know it, like he is definitely like moving the relationship along really fast. I was kind of slow and then, you know, like once I fell in love, then things just continued to move really fast. They move in to my house and, mind you, they have a wonderful mother. At the time they spent about 40% of the time with us, 60% with her, and but now I have this instant family, which is a complete flip from what my life was before. And we're we dated for just under a year and a half and I am. We had just gotten back from this really elaborate trip to Italy, which, of course, I footed the bill for.

Gina: 43:08

Okay, wait, can I just make? A prediction, because I'm like such a true crime fan. Everything was a fucking lie and he was like kind of conning you Okay don't say if. I'm right or not. Let's hear the rest of the story, we'll find out. If I'm right.

Ginny: 43:25

Go ahead so we get back from this really great trip. I had to turn around like one or two days later and go on another work trip and on that Okay just so that I can, just so that I'm 100% sure that I'm following here.

Nicola: 43:38

We've been okay. We've been dating for like a year and a half. They've him and the children's have moved into your home. Yeah, why your home?

Gina: 43:48

Yeah, why the fuck your home?

Nicola: 43:49

I have so many questions, jenny, like I have, so many questions, but I've got so many follow up questions here, so we're in your home.

Ginny: 43:55

We're in my home.

Nicola: 43:56

The home I still live in now.

Gina: 43:58

Okay, but how did you get you to foot the bill to Italy?

Nicola: 44:02

Yeah, like what does he do for a job? What did he say? What did he say?

Gina: 44:06

like oh, my wire transfer from the banks didn't go through.

Nicola: 44:10

My, my Winston union didn't come through, girl, if I told you, yeah, go ahead.

Ginny: 44:16

If I told you the number of times that his credit card had fraud or whatever, like I can't even so. So they're living in my house because he rented, and so how he approached the conversation with me was well, how much longer should I sign this lease for? Or should I all, or should I at all? You know, should we move in together?

Nicola: 44:37

Well, okay. At what point did he move in, though? Like, at what point in this year and a half did he move in, if you tell me six months coming to punch you in the tits?

Ginny: 44:46

Shut up? It was not. It was not three months, it was not six months. They moved in At one month. It was like nine or there's like nine or 10 months, so like we started dating in August.

Nicola: 44:59

We approved, we started dating in August.

Ginny: 45:02

He brought it up.

Nicola: 45:02

I'm not punching you in the tits today, so we're good, we're good.

Ginny: 45:05

He brought it up in April and then kind of slowly started, you know, moving in and was fully moved in, I think, in like two Cause that's a big commitment to move kids in as well.

Nicola: 45:14

Like that's like a thing, cause I, we've all like I don't know if you've got kids, but we've both got kids and I'm like that's a fucking event. Yeah, it's a huge event.

Gina: 45:23

Especially when they're at their age, like getting them comfortable in a new environment If they're like old.

Nicola: 45:27

Oh my God, how old are these children? How old are these?

Ginny: 45:29

children. So one thing I don't say is their age or gender, because I'm very protective of them. We still are in each other's lives, we're still really close.

Gina: 45:39

Oh, that's a bit nice, but yeah, like it can be like a big event in a kid's life, depending on their age, Like I had already created.

Nicola: 45:48

Can we have like a group age here? Like are we younger or older? Like are we?

Gina: 45:52

they were younger.

Nicola: 45:53

The low-tutile octetine.

Gina: 45:55

Yeah, they sound like they were younger. They were younger, okay.

Ginny: 45:58

And I had already created space, Like I had already turned the bedroom the downstairs bedroom in my home a bedroom for them, cause they spent so much time there and so he rented, he didn't own, I owned and so that it made the most sense and I had just bought my house the year we started dating, so, like that house, I had moved from a different home that I actually still have and rent out, but so Was he at least paying you rent. No, you're so cute, that's adorable Gina. No.

Gina: 46:27

Girl, I'm doing it.

Nicola: 46:30

I hate, like I hate past Ginny right now for this oh my God, yeah, I want to come give past Ginny a punch in the boob and a hug simultaneously.

Ginny: 46:39

Right, I know. Well, here's the thing, and here's one thing that I'm actually really grateful for is that I am a generous person and I'm really glad that I didn't let this taint that for me, or like jade me was still being generous with my friends and my family and the people that I am close with in my life. But I'll tell you, I've made some changes in my community. I've made some big changes and shifts just because of what I came to learn about myself, about my growing up, about my history. That, like that you know, I kind of said earlier, like this narcissist abuse recovery, that's a really big part of my journey. For me, and understanding why I allowed him in my life is because a lot of his behaviors were familiar to me.

Gina: 47:23

Yeah, so I completely identify with that. This is reminding me of a guy that I dated, not necessarily the monetary stuff, but just like knowing he's lying to you but at that moment either not picking up on it or refusing to pick up on it. Like I still go back and think about this one particular relationship that was very traumatic for me and I'm like how did I not know? But then there's like a little voice in the back of my head that's like girl you knew, but like you know, Girl.

Nicola: 47:51

Yeah, like you just admitted to yourself.

Gina: 47:54

Yeah, like you didn't want to think about it, so you just kind of like pushed it away because you were like so Gaga over the guy. I totally get that, okay. So my question is what did he tell you for you to pay for Italy, that he was going to pay you back? No, it was just like the same thing. I just did it.

Nicola: 48:11

The children going to Italy too? No, they didn't go.

Ginny: 48:14

That was just, yeah, that was just an adult trip, but I did take them. I took them on their first time to see the ocean. I still take them on vacations, them and their mom, the four of us go on spring break, uh-huh.

Gina: 48:26

I love this. Okay, so we can come back.

Ginny: 48:28

That hurts fun, so I come back. I got shingles on my face. I should just take a picture of them and post how spreesque were you that.

Nicola: 48:36

You got shingles, exactly.

Ginny: 48:37

On my face in my 30s. That is not normal, unless you are under it.

Nicola: 48:41

And it swells, so bad it was so bad.

Ginny: 48:44

I have a pretty bad scar. You can't see it here. I actually was just before I came here. I was about to post some stories on social media because I was like, well, I have my makeup on, so I might as well get on camera, and the way the lighting was, you could just see the scar on my face really well. So I snapped it to share Because I think pain attention to our bodies and our intuition, especially as women. I think that we ignore it often, and once you ignore it.

Gina: 49:11

That's what we did with these guys, right.

Ginny: 49:12

Yes.

Gina: 49:13

We knew, but we still ignored it. Yep.

Ginny: 49:16

And once you ignore your intuition and it was right you never do that again, and so I think that was a big part. Oh, I'm special.

Gina: 49:23

Because it took me many times to be like I should trust my gut and then it's like same thing happens two years later. I knew I should have tried. There's a saying, though like the first time you see the hole in the road, you walk into it because you want to know what it is. Maybe you do that two more times and then eventually you start walking around it a little bit and kind of peer in, and then maybe the sixth time you know the holes there. You just completely change your direction. So that was my pattern, with really bad behavior like that on my part. So that's awesome that you were able to correct it so quickly In a hard case, I guess.

Ginny: 50:01

Well, that's okay. I mean this. Well, maybe it wasn't. I mean, this was just the last time.

Nicola: 50:05

right Like this was the thing, because it shook me to my core so hard.

Ginny: 50:12

This whole experience was so jarring and so shocking. So a month later, and the shingles on my face were because, like I knew something was, I knew something was wrong we actually went home. I went home and we had a big conversation that weekend. He totally gaslit me, did the I wouldn't have moved my kids into your house, like trying to then make me feel guilty. And, mind you, he had moved like six times in five years, so don't talk to me about uprooting your kids. So anyway, fast forward a month later and I'm on a work trip and I get a message from a friend and she urgently wants to get together with me that night for cocktails. I land at 937 pm on a Tuesday.

Ginny: 50:55

Girl that's that's pajama time. Yeah, totally so. Like I'm like I love cocktails, but not at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday, and this friend and I had never met for cocktails before like workouts or coffee, but never cocktails. And on a Tuesday I also had asked the kids mom if we could have the kids that night. It was a Tuesday, which was not our normal night. We had them Thursdays to Sunday, but we were leaving town that weekend for my nephew and that weekend for my nephew's wedding, and so I loved the mornings with the kids.

Ginny: 51:26

Like that was our special time. Like breakfast, bring them to school they're so sweet in the morning, like making the lunches, like the whole thing. So I was really excited to get home and have that special morning with them the next day. So this friend wants to meet me and you know I was like well, my life was pretty good. I loved this family unit that I had, even though I never really, you know, expected to have it. And so all day I'm going in thinking, well, how am I going to show up and be a good friend, like whatever's going on with her? Obviously it's something really big. Like I want to be there for her and support her. So I walk into the restaurant like ready to take it on, like take on the world for her, and I sit down. She's got an empty drink. I don't know how many she had had but empty drink, a stack of paper.

Ginny: 52:14

She's sobbing and I sit down in the booth, I order you know we order around and I reach across the table and I'm like I've been so worried about you all day. What is going on? She said it's not about you or it's not about me, it's about you, it's actually about Chad. And she had this arrangement of evidence of Lies, deception.

Ginny: 52:38

But really, like, the guy that was at home in my bed at that time was not who I thought he was at all. I had been bamboozled, conned, I mean it was, and just more and more stuff has continued to come out, like even recently. I have a really funny juicy story that's happened recently that I can share. But yeah, so I came, I went home, I confronted him. I was very careful about the amount of information that I gave him because I wanted to see how he responded and what he would, you know, divulge and share. And after like 45 minutes he basically was like I know this is more important, but I have to get up for work in four hours, so I'm going to go to bed and he like literally went and slept on the couch, did he even have a job.

Ginny: 53:25

Yeah, he's a personal trainer. Oh, self-employed.

Nicola: 53:31

You know it's a job. Okay, wait. So what kind of lies are we talking here? Was he?

Gina: 53:35

like a different personality.

Nicola: 53:37

Like did he have a different family? Like, what level of psychopathic-ness are we talking here?

Ginny: 53:46

Yeah. So like there are countless women that he did like countless at this point, is he just like shell-gaming woman, yes, and I mean, or is he conning them for money? He's not necessarily conning them for money. I was the perfect host for him because he didn't, you know, contribute to the mortgage, he didn't pay bills. I did everything. I did the grocery shopping, I traveled for work, so that gave a lot of space and freedom for him to do. Who knows whatever. Like I always say, if there's one thing this guy should be teaching, it's time management. But now, I mean, at this point, countless women have reached out to me and they're like I dated him at this time. I dated him and there was overlapping, of course.

Nicola: 54:28

Oh yeah, I want you to not throw a podcast on this. Oh, I do.

Ginny: 54:32

Oh yeah.

Gina: 54:33

We talk about this and drinking with Jen.

Ginny: 54:35

We talk about the juicy stuff that after the growing. You know all the good stuff. I actually have done some TV segments about this because, like, there's recent event was really juicy. But as soon as my book came out, women started like reaching out to me slowly, gradually, like, oh my gosh, I'm also a victim of the real life Chad, like I had no idea how many women there actually were. He's also like I, countless like legitimately. I have no idea.

Gina: 55:03

So he also your best estimate would it be like hundreds or thousands, oh yeah.

Ginny: 55:08

Well, maybe thousands, maybe hundreds, for sure, definitely, definitely Management.

Nicola: 55:15

This guy is on top of his shit. This is like my question is is how is this impacting the children, because he's obviously using them as like a like, a little dangly carrot.

Ginny: 55:27

The most difficult part for me, still today, is to see the continued manipulation and emotional abuse that those kids endure from him.

Nicola: 55:36

I've got like it's you hate.

Ginny: 55:37

now I know they went a long period where they didn't speak to him or see him at all. They don't like seeing him, they don't like spending time with him, so they literally only go to see him one day a week and that vacillates because he a lot of times doesn't show up because he's flaky. He like he, we don't think he does taxes. So I think he's a huge financial fraud. He makes it seem like he does really well and you know like has all this money. He doesn't have a dime in the bank. Like he has no savings for his future. Like nothing. He was charging clients credit cards for services not rendered. Like multiple of his former clients canceled their credit cards to get new ones because they didn't trust that. You know what else would he do with it?

Gina: 56:26

I think one of the most nobody like actually went to like the police about him doing that. That's like illegal. What he's doing is like credit card, like fraud.

Ginny: 56:37

Yeah, wait until you hear this. So one of the things that he told the woman that kind of came forward to blow things up and make me aware, he told her that the reason I couldn't find out about her is because they needed he and the kids needed my health insurance because the youngest had brain cancer.

Gina: 57:01

Why do all these scamming motherfuckers always make up somebody with cancer? Every single scam man, woman, somebody has cancer and somebody gets into a car accident. How? Many car accidents did he get into.

Ginny: 57:16

There were no. They weren't even on my health insurance, so that in itself was a lie. There was no cancer, no brain cancer, of course not. He would leave like he would lie. He would leave my house when I'd be gone and, by the way, I had a geriatric like elderly dog at this time and he would just abandon and neglect and leave my dog.

Gina: 57:38

I hate everyone.

Ginny: 57:39

I hate people. And then one of the one of, I think, the most grandiose things that he does. So he used to work for this nutrition company and he would go talk at this chiropractic school. So he just took it upon himself to start acting like he's a chiropractor, a doctor, and would perform chiropractic adjustments on people and legit one of his they would pay for them. I don't know if they pay for them, but one of his-.

Nicola: 58:08

They were like a broken back.

Ginny: 58:11

Well, I mean, if he hasn't already. You can easily give somebody a stroke or worse right Like. Again, it's not only illegal, but like the grandiosity of like playing a doctor when you're not. But one of his buddies is a soccer coach at a college and he will send, like I had seen his college athletes go in and get adjusted by him.

Gina: 58:35

From Chad.

Ginny: 58:36

Yeah, from Chad.

Gina: 58:37

From.

Ginny: 58:38

Dr Chad, From Dr Chad. So it's like if you knew that your college kid was being sent to this faux chiropractic-. I can't Like horrifying. I can't right?

Gina: 58:50

Does the friend know he was a fake chiropractor? Or maybe the friend was also bamboozled Like? We don't know?

Ginny: 58:56

We don't know Well that friend reached out to me it's just so deep About the book.

Nicola: 59:01

I know I don't care for this and was like yeah.

Ginny: 59:03

I mean it's wild, like the story is juicy, okay. So let me tell you this one more juicy part, because so there's this secret Facebook group that is basically to like women will post photos of a guy and be like hey, does anybody have any tea or are there any red flags? So this just happened a few months ago. It was like almost exactly to the date a year after my book came out, and a photo of him was posted, literally like almost instantly. Like over a hundred women commented. So then they all start chatting with one another, they all start DMing, they all start sharing my book, like sending pictures of it, like oh, my gosh, you have to read her book, it's about him. They all start reaching out to me. I get this like my book goes to like number one bestseller.

Ginny: 59:50

I don't know, they're like all supporting it, sharing it, they're all reaching out to me, they're like reaching out to one another. And then another photo was posted of him, and so this is why I say countless, because, like I, legitimately can't even keep track of all of those and like who knows how far the reach went if it was just women maybe?

Gina: 1:00:09

meant I feel like men would be less likely to report on something like that, like if their dude friend conned them they'd probably be so embarrassed. Yeah, yeah, okay. So so they're all sharing. Your book goes to bestseller. This is so cool. Go ahead.

Ginny: 1:00:24

Yeah, and so they all, like they've all been, you know, like creating community and connection and what's what the silver lining of it all is. I had no idea when I, you know, shared my story. It's, you know, very personal to me. It was really traumatic what I went through and luckily it did send me on a journey of like post traumatic growth and now I use that to help other people right like share their stories, give validation, coach them through transition, transformation, all of that. But these women have been, you know, they've reached out like I had no idea how many, like obviously I knew I or I hoped that I would raise awareness of the chads of the world out there, but I had no idea how many actual people have been impacted by the Chad.

Gina: 1:01:09

This particular one.

Ginny: 1:01:11

This one guy and the amount of people that have reached out and said you know you sharing your story as provided me validation or it's given me closure and clarity on a situation that was really confusing for me. I was really difficult, it was really painful. You know the number of women that said it completely destroyed them like he completely destroyed them. It destroys their confidence, it makes them like compute, and so to be able to provide that for people and create connection and community with one another, on Saturday I happened to be at a football game and another one of the women that had reached out to me happened to be there too, so we met up and got to meet each other in person. He actually had called her to try to because after so I was on TV about this. I was on a nationally syndicated talk show about this whole Facebook story and you know everything because it's juicy you know, it's kind of crazy how it happened, yeah yeah, definitely, and he heard about it.

Ginny: 1:02:12

Or you know, he heard about that. I was on TV and found out about this private Facebook group and someone gave him access to the comments. I hate everyone, so he called one of the women and was like I can't believe you didn't defend me and say what a good guy I am.

Gina: 1:02:32

Babe, when, like, a million 39 other women are like he, even if, like, let's say, she even did that, like when all the proof is there. So wait, this leads me to a question how did your friend know, yeah, before you?

Ginny: 1:02:46

knew. So I was told, I was told. I don't believe that, I don't know that, I necessarily believe what I was told, but what I was told is that she was showing pictures at a mom's group on her Instagram from my Instagram of our trip to Italy, saying, oh, my friend just got back, look what a great trip it was. And one of the women recognized Chad in my photos.

Gina: 1:03:18

And it was like oh, that's my boyfriend.

Nicola: 1:03:20

It was her friend. I think she banged him at some point.

Ginny: 1:03:23

Yeah, I'm not sure. We're not friends anymore either. I had to actually eliminate her from my life. That was one of the things I really discovered was the close proximity of the few people that were really close to my life were very toxic. I think the reason why she told me is because she wanted me to be indebted to her and she wanted to kind of have the control in my life and be my hero.

Nicola: 1:03:46

Be the hero that I like to save Like savior of your life, yeah yeah, yeah.

Ginny: 1:03:51

So I've gone on to be my own damn savior.

Gina: 1:03:53

Yeah, good, I mean, that's what happens. My story is not the same, but it was a serial womanizer in a certain friend group and when it all spilled out and he got a few of us pregnant at the same time and it kind of just all exploded and it was so devastating, it made me feel suicidal and I was in my late 20s, early 30s at the time and, first of all, if it happened to me now, I'm also now gonna be 44. I would never, I would already see the signs, but you, I finally, was like like I ended up feeling bad for him.

Gina: 1:04:42

Like I was like he is just a sick human being, like someone who can have multiple sex partners every day, like that's a sickness, like that is not any reflection of me. I happened to just be in his crosshairs because he liked the way I looked. It was no reflection of me. But it took me a really long time to get to that point where, like I didn't feel like everything was wrong with me, like I was fat, I was ugly, like whatever, and I remember saying Can?

Nicola: 1:05:13

we circle back to Fat Cunt with a gun, so I feel like that's the theme title of the year.

Gina: 1:05:21

No, but like I remember, like laying on my really close friend's couch and just like sobbing and being like I'm disgusting, like what's wrong with me.

Gina: 1:05:30

You know to like internalize that and then, but then it, you know, over the process and like learning how many other women it affected and like getting phone calls from them, like a year plus later, being like this is no longer my problem. Like you deal with it, like I'm out. I've been out, you know, since I found out all of these disgusting things this person has done, which is really good closure, you know, and like eventually I'm gonna ask you this question, but I'm gonna start it with. So eventually Karma got him. He got into a really bad motorcycle accident and like his leg, one of his legs, was like severely damaged and he's not the same.

Gina: 1:06:11

And I remember a friend of mine heard about it and asked me like was I okay? And I'm like what do you mean? Am I okay? Like this was years after all of that the nastiness happened and I'm like what do you mean? Am I okay? I was like he doesn't affect me, like it was just like hearing, like reading it in the newspaper. For me, you know, it was like oh, that's too bad, like whatever. And that was really like my moment.

Ginny: 1:06:38

And I was like I have no feeling about this person anymore and like that's the power you know, yeah, I would say that love and hate are actually really closely related emotions, and it was my first TV interview after my book came out and they were like man, you must hate him. And I said I'm indifferent.

Gina: 1:06:59

And that's the power. When I realized, like, when my friend asked me, like how do you feel about it? And I was like why would like? I was genuinely like, why would you think that I would even have an opinion on this? That's when I was like I know I'm over this, like I have nothing, like that's too bad. It happened, but you live your life like that. You know You're lucky that the silly thing that happened.

Nicola: 1:07:22

So how do you feel like this has impacted you like you know, circling all the way back to toxic workplaces? How?

Gina: 1:07:29

do you feel like this is so how did this reflect, like, in your employment? Like I'm sure that you were like a complete stress ball, completely freaking out. Like what happened with work? Like were you still showing up? Did people question what was going on with you? Like, what was that looking like?

Ginny: 1:07:46

Well, I was supposed to be going to my nephew's wedding that weekend. I had to cancel. I missed my nephew's wedding, which was devastating, but I did. I called my. It was my. I had that wonderful boss that we talked about at the beginning. He was my boss at the time that this happened.

Ginny: 1:08:02

And I basically just called and said I need the rest of the week off. I have some, you know, personal stuff going on and I just kind of left it at that. I just kind of kept a low profile, I think I showed. I think I had to travel for work the following week and my colleague that I was going to do like a dinner, like a business dinner with, he asked me a question. I just said, look, I, this is what's going on, I'm not ready to talk about it. And he really respected it and I'm still like we're still friendly to the state. He's a, he's a great guy.

Ginny: 1:08:38

But I did, I think for a while I just was going through the motions Like I was really lost. I was really. I was a mess. I didn't sleep, I didn't eat, I lost like two, I like dropped two sizes. My body was just so stressed, like in constant fight or flight. I questioned everything in life. But I was still showing up to work and I think I probably kind of put myself into work, threw myself into work a little bit, and that's why I, you know, won the award the next year. You know, after that, that was then the last year. That was the year I exited that company. So, yeah, it was. It was hard to show up, but I think sometimes when you're in that state of grief, all you can do is just do the next thing, right? So I was really reliant on my schedule and just like knowing that I had to do the next thing, and it was about five or six months after the split where I started writing the book, and so I would then just like spend my flights writing. I was just like furiously writing and you know thinking about how I was gonna put this story out into the world, and then I shelved it for about a year and a half, came back to it and, you know, brought it out into the world. But to answer your question about like, how did this change me in terms of, like, my work environment and, you know, recognizing toxic work environments, I think one of the things for me that was a really big learning lesson was that.

Ginny: 1:10:13

Because sometimes people think about narcissists and I think it's a really flippantly thrown around word now, but that's why I bring like experts I refer to medically reviewed journals on my podcast. When we talk about things like that, like gaslighting and the gray rock method and narcissists, people often think of it just in romantic relationships, and part of what I like to talk about is that they can be anywhere. You know. They might be your family member, they might be your coworker, and so one of the things that really changed for me, gina kind of like what you were saying is like now you can recognize it, like I can spot it a mile away, like you are not getting anywhere near. It's like I have the like, it's like I put a magnifying glass on it for me.

Ginny: 1:10:58

And at my last company I had a very toxic coworker and I had to start, like implementing some of the tactics and things that I had learned on my journey of gathering information and coming to understand it. And the second, I didn't have to work with her anymore. I like completely removed her from my life.

Gina: 1:11:21

So what were some of the things that you used to kind of deal with her Like? Was it like very forceful boundary setting? Or like what were the tools that you ended up learning that were good for both personal and professional?

Ginny: 1:11:35

Boundaries. She didn't respect boundaries.

Gina: 1:11:37

No well, they usually don't. Toxic people usually don't.

Ginny: 1:11:40

But yeah, so I started reducing my interactions and contact with her. I wouldn't answer her phone calls cause she would call me a lot of times, like outside of work hours. I would try to keep all communication on email so that it was documented. And then I started actually tracking things. It was the first time in my entire career I did go to HR. They didn't do anything about it, but I had like clear documentation. She actually had called me. She had the audacity to call me on New Year's Eve at like after 5.30 PM to tell me that she to tell me that she had a problem with my social media and I was like, cool, unfollow me.

Ginny: 1:12:30

And then like, and that was my reaction. I was like, okay, well then, unfollow me.

Gina: 1:12:35

We are colleagues, a lot of it is how you react to the situation, cause you can't control anyone, and I had to learn this the hard way, cause my business partner and I'm like we don't really get along and I had to realize like if I react a certain way, he will react a different way. So, once I changed myself, things kind of got better.

Ginny: 1:12:58

Yep.

Gina: 1:12:59

Yeah, so yeah, exactly Like. Oh, sorry to hear that Maybe don't follow me.

Ginny: 1:13:03

Yeah, but then she wanted to go down this well, other people from work follow you. And I was like, okay. And then she said, well, you know, everyone else is just out there working so hard. I said, oh well, now you're questioning my work ethic and we were equals. We were both like we were both directors and then senior directors. So we were equals, like it wasn't like I worked for her. And then I did tell her. I said, well, actually our boss is aware of some of the extracurricular things that I do outside of work and she's supportive.

Gina: 1:13:36

So basically go after yourself, lady, yeah.

Ginny: 1:13:38

So it was just like you said you have to. You can't control other people's reactions, the way they behave, but you can control how you respond and that's, you know, at the end of the day, all you can do. So I just I tried to limit my interactions with her. There's this really passive, aggressive thing that she did. We had this leadership meeting and at the end of it it was very risky. I wasn't sure how I felt about it to begin with, but they had everybody write a piece of anonymous feedback and then it went into an envelope. And then you took all of that anonymous feedback and went back to your room and read it and hers was extremely passive, aggressive, like and I think when you get to the point, when you understand people's behaviors and intentions behind that, it doesn't affect you anymore. You're like this isn't about me, this is about them you know Like there's something going on with them, yeah.

Ginny: 1:14:34

Yeah, and I think one of the biggest lessons that I've learned is, once you start to remove the toxic behaviors from your life, you know, like I removed the toxic romantic relationship, I removed some toxic families or family members, a toxic friend and toxic work environments, and what that does is it opens up and allows so much space for all of the good. And there's a study that scientists did in Kenya where they observed a troop of baboons and in that troop of baboons there's kind of, there's like three groups. There's a group of aggressive, abusive, domineering males. There is a group of more kind, amiable, you know, friendly males, and then there was a group of women and the female baboons were nurturing and warm and loving and caring, and the abusive domineering males went out to scavenge for food and they came across a garbage pen, like a garbage bin, full of meat. They devoured it. Well, that meat was tainted and unfortunately they all died.

Ginny: 1:15:44

And so you think about what happens in a community after you remove those toxic behaviors. Do the other males that were more amiable and kind take over those domineering, abusive, aggressive behaviors, or does a more harmonious, empathetic, you know, nurturing culture evolve? And it was the latter, and yeah, so I love to use that as an example because I think that's just in nature generally and I can tell you the same thing happened for me Once I stepped out of toxic work environments, removed the toxic you know coworkers from my life and people from my life like now. It's just all authentic, genuine, warm, kind, caring people and your relationships flourish so much more because that's what you're focused on.

Gina: 1:16:35

Yeah, and you feel safer, which is something like Nicola loves, the whole psychological safety aspect of, you know, being everything everything really like personal and work, but then you can feel safe to be vulnerable, and that's where all the growth happens, right. Yeah, you can ask the question that maybe previously that you thought someone would make fun of you for being such a stupid question to ask. You know, whatever yeah.

Ginny: 1:17:01

Absolutely. I talk about it in my podcast. I just recently started opening up about it. I have a narcissistic mother.

Nicola: 1:17:08

Oh, dinner and brother Mom, they have fun time.

Ginny: 1:17:12

And brother. Yeah, so I actually about a year, a little over a year and a half ago, I ended up going no contact with my mom in 2020. I consciously started stepping away from my brother, like just not engaging anymore Gray Rock Method and it's been really great, but that was a big, that was a big part of the journey for me. And then doing that inner child work, like if people haven't done that, that's really really a big part of my journey too. Like for me it was like I was able to meditate and go back to that four year old little girl that basically became an adult because I had to, I had to take care of myself and I was like, oh, I got this, but yeah, so I do talk about that in a podcast and it was my hardest breakup.

Ginny: 1:17:59

Like I don't think that anybody that oftentimes children that step away from a narcissistic parent. People are like, well, that's your only mom, that's your dad, that's so-and-so, and like the onus is on that person. It's like you don't understand what we've been through in the emotional abuse and manipulation and trauma and that is the last resort. Like they don't realize that you've tried everything.

Nicola: 1:18:24

It's not really a fear and that's something that people don't can't really wrap their heads around is it's like you've had to kind of self-raise versus oh, we have such a loving family, I'm not very mad.

Ginny: 1:18:38

And I think that's a big part of the reason why I was brought into these children's lives is to help break that cycle for them and their family, because every kid deserves unconditional love from two parents Absolutely, and I only had unconditional love from one parent and they only had unconditional love from one parent, and so I'm happy that I still get to be in their lives to be able to hopefully for them to receive that yeah.

Gina: 1:19:06

So were you just Adam? This is just because I got mad at some of the women in my life at that time who knew what was going on but just chose not to tell me. Yeah, and when confronted, they were like well, we thought you knew and it's like you don't know what you don't know. It was just mind-boggling to me that his ex, who now seems like you're close to, did she know this was going on and did she warn you? Or how close were you? It sounds like you did communicate with her on your own, aside from him, because you mentioned that you had asked her if you could switch the kids' days or whatever.

Ginny: 1:19:48

So we didn't communicate a lot. He did a really good job of keeping us apart. So when we first started dating, it was like in the first month, he was like I can't wait for you to meet my kids. And I was like what Well, what does their mom say about this? Because for me I immediately went into like I'm not a mother, I don't have biological children of my own, but I would want to know who my kids are around right.

Ginny: 1:20:11

So like instantly, I put myself in her shoes, because I am an empath also. So it's like you have you want to.

Nicola: 1:20:18

That's the worst for narcissists. Oh, I know.

Gina: 1:20:22

That's probably why they're like you're preyed on right, Because they see that.

Ginny: 1:20:26

Yeah.

Gina: 1:20:27

They just love that juicy little snack bit.

Ginny: 1:20:31

So she. It was the first time that the children, her children, had consistency. It was the first time, since they had split up, that she felt that her children were safe that they were loved and that they were cared for.

Ginny: 1:20:49

And it was. And like this is the good stuff but also the hard stuff, or like I didn't know any of that then and she gave me full range. She was the only person that got to read the book before it came out, because I wanted to make sure I was so respectful of her and the kids that I wanted to make sure that she was comfortable with everything that was in it. But there was one moment where we had been dating for a few months and she confronted him and said I like Ginny, I like her for our children. And he was like, oh no, like I've totally changed.

Gina: 1:21:26

And you know, oh, yes, oh, they always totally changed within like a minute.

Ginny: 1:21:32

Yeah, they've always totally changed and so but when I asked about meeting her, I was like, how do you want? I'd really like to meet her, just so she knows like and is comfortable with who's around her kids. And I was like we could meet for coffee or a glass of wine or just like when I'm doing school pickup or whatever, cause she's a teacher and that was she taught at one of the kids' schools. So and he came back and he was like, yeah, she just wants to meet at school pickup. I was like, okay, that's fine.

Ginny: 1:22:01

Well, fast forward to after we split up and her and I start comparing notes. She was like he never asked me, he would have never let us be in the same room together. But in hindsight, if her and I would have sat down and we were just a few months into dating and if she started to tell me about her experience that she had with him, what if I just thought, oh, she's just the crazy jealous ex and he would have spun it that way, right, like we're all crazy. You know he's telling people that I'm my book and I'm ruining his life because it's all lies. Well, if it's all lies and you're such a wonderful, upstanding citizen and general good guy. Just keep going and doing the good in the world, but yeah.

Gina: 1:22:49

Is that what Chad used to say to you? You're my favorite.

Ginny: 1:22:53

So I coined that, because saying I love you is very difficult for me, so I coined you're my favorite, as are I love you.

Nicola: 1:23:04

Yes, yeah, it's a thing right, because when you've got narcissistic parents, you don't have the option of saying that.

Ginny: 1:23:10

Yeah, you don't know, like it's such a learning journey. So, yeah, so that's where in the name of the book, I changed it last minute. It had a completely different working name for three years and then I changed it last minute and it just really fit. But the girl I call her the toddler that he dated for a while because she was like 25 and he was 45. Shut up, I can't stand you. I'm the worst. Sometimes I love it. So the girl that was living with him at the time when my book came out, she had reached out to me and she was like he tells, that's what he says to me, like he literally all of this, like he pulls and he just uses and recycles the same tactics over and over. Yeah, so Gross.

Gina: 1:23:56

Yeah, refer them to the secret Facebook page.

Ginny: 1:24:00

Yes, there you go.

Gina: 1:24:03

Oh my God. Well, this has been such. This is literally on such a journey, right it?

Ginny: 1:24:08

has.

Gina: 1:24:09

It has. It's been a journey. There's been plot holes, plot twists, rather and different, like we veered off, but it has been. I really enjoyed it. Nicola, do you have any questions or anything you want to say?

Nicola: 1:24:25

I'd say you know, tell us where our listeners can find you. Give us all the details as to where they can hunt you down.

Ginny: 1:24:33

Sure, All of my stuff is just my name, Ginny Prem. So I hang out on social media the most on Instagram. That's Ginny Prem. My website is Ginny Prem, so if you are looking to book me for motivational speaking engagement, my website is the best place to do that. My book you can buy on Amazon. It's called You're my Favorite. My podcast is Drinking With Gin, which can be listened to on any of the major platforms. So whatever you're listening to this on, you should be able to find Drinking With Gin. And then I just launched my newsletter so you can sign up for that as well through any of my links.

Gina: 1:25:12

Yeah, you're enough. This one hit close to home for me, so it was. But it was so nice Like I could talk about it so calmly because like it truly does not make a difference to me anymore.

Nicola: 1:25:24

Yeah, all right, it's been awesome having you on, so thank you.

Gina: 1:25:27

Yeah, we really appreciate it.

Ginny: 1:25:28

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for having me.

Gina: 1:25:31

I'm actually looking up your podcast right now and I'm going to subscribe, subscribe and follow.

Nicola: 1:25:37

Just for anyone that's listening, subscribe and follow all of our podcasts Outs Ginny's. Everybody's just do that.

Ginny: 1:25:44

And leave a review. Leaving a review is so nice. Leave a five star review for this podcast today.

Nicola: 1:25:51

Thank you, ginny. Yes, and when you listen to. Ginny's podcast do the same thing.

Gina: 1:25:57

Yes, Unequivocally. If your podcast is even like as fun as this was, I'm sure it's more fun. It should get five star review all the time.

Nicola: 1:26:08

Absolutely All right. Well, it has been awesome and we really appreciate your time and the fact that you've taken our time today to talk to us not only about, like this salacious drama behind your book, but also your experience in toxic workplaces.