S2E18: How Porn led to a deep dive investigation into a massive movie production house

Joining us in an insightful episode is Captain (Not a real name!), a seasoned player who has thrived for 30 years in the thrilling, often merciless world of the entertainment industry. His tales stretch from directing commercials and music videos to rubbing shoulders with celebrities like Courtney Love. But it's not all glitz and glamour; Captain doesn't shy away from pulling back the curtain on the darker side of the industry, recounting incidents of intense pressure, humiliation, and the constant hustle required to stay afloat. 

Venturing beyond Hollywood, we unfold the controversial Hobbit Law in New Zealand, a legislation that has stirred up a storm in the global film industry. We engage with a former employee of Weta, a company that has lent its magic to monumental films like Avatar and Lord of the Rings. Hear about the toxic workplace environment, daunting allegations of bullying and harassment, and the grueling stress that often leads workers towards unhealthy coping mechanisms. This is an unfiltered look at the colossal pressure that often simmers behind the silver screen.

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Transcript

Annon: 0:42

Oh, geez, I've been warned by five people now not to do this.

Gina: 0:48

Who listens to our stupid podcast anyway, yeah.

Nicola: 0:51

I bet you none of them listen. Nobody listens. I'm sure people listen. I mean they do. They bitch about it.

Gina: 0:57

They're like oh my god, gina, so annoying. And I'm like yes, I am.

Nicola: 1:01

So, captain, welcome to the podcast. Today you have got a question.

Annon: 1:06

Hello, Gina and Nicola.

Nicola: 1:08

Welcome, welcome. I've got quite an interesting podcast, I think, today, so we would love to know from you what industry you work in and how long have you been working in the industry that you have come from.

Annon: 1:22

I've worked in the entertainment industry for 30 years now. I started back in the early 90s and I definitely went through being from Los Angeles. There were a lot of drugs, a lot of cocaine and I started in commercials and music videos and that was wonderful, you know. But over the years, you know, getting older, it's been a bit more difficult. It brought me into the film industry for the past 20 years. So, yeah, it's been a bit of a varied ride. You know, meeting Courtney Love, dave Matthews, outcast Big Boy and those people that were very lovely, but yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to say it.

Nicola: 2:40

You had mentioned in our catch up that you had met Courtney Love.

Annon: 2:44

What was that?

Nicola: 2:45

like for you.

Annon: 2:46

She was. What was really funny is there was a producer on the video that we worked on and he berated me and he called me a loser and he was just an awful person. But she finally stepped in and was very lovely and very supportive and I do know that she loves Prairie Winkle the color, and I met Frances Bean and Floppy Bear, which was her teddy bear. But yeah, she was very wonderful and she gave me her number and she was very. You know, I can't say enough good things about her.

Nicola: 3:37

You gave me her number, hey, har.

Annon: 3:41

Well, nothing ever transpired from that. But yeah, it was funny because Joe Gaglione, which was the producer that berated me Because what happened was Nancy Bardowell was the original director on the show and what happened was I kind of went against what she wanted to do and it was part of a production company, so he was more connected to that. But I told you know, I sold Courtney Love the idea that we want more Alice in Wonderland and not like anything Nirvana or grunge, so yeah, but she was she and she was full on with it and she loved it. And you know, celebrity Skin was the music video. So yeah, you know that was a very interesting time.

Nicola: 4:43

Fair enough. So is being berated in front of people quite common.

Annon: 4:50

Yes, that's the thing is. Especially in Los Angeles it could be very, it's very competitive. So people can can get a bit opinionated about things and especially if they think that you've gone over the line that you're supposed to do. You know it's, it's definitely that was. That was a very profound experience in my history. But yeah, I mean but I've worked with other directors on these videos outcast bombs over Baghdad, roses and what. Brian Barber was lovely, great, great person. You know, that was probably the only real kind of traumatic experience where I had to like bite my tongue and just be like just accept it because I need to work.

Nicola: 5:47

Was it was it like I'm curious to like no more about this berating. So was it more like you're a fucking loser or you just lose that like.

Annon: 5:59

What happened was was he is, his partner was just entered and he was very emotional. So just the beratement was just the fact that I over step what he thought, I over step my boundaries and luckily, courtney love stepped in and my, my buddy producer, tracy, stepped in and said you don't talk to him like that. You know, it's like you know. I was just like, I'll take it.

Nicola: 6:34

How old were you at this point?

Annon: 6:36

2425. Geez.

Nicola: 6:40

So this is still kind of new to the industry or just like yeah well, I mean, I've been working.

Annon: 6:48

this is like 97, 98. And I started back in, I think, 92. So I had some experience. But but working with a bunch of different creatives on different commercials and such, you know, prepared me a bit for it because they could be very caustic. But you know that was probably the most you got aggressive experience I've ever had how.

Nicola: 7:22

how did you get into this? Because it doesn't seem like it's a like these are natural career path into.

Annon: 7:31

What was straight it was was strangely so. I used to. When I was a kid I was. I drew a lot of comics and did a lot of art. And what was funny was, randomly I had a friend come over and hook a stereo up in my car. He said, hey, you're an artist, you should go. You know work for the company I work at. And I was like sure. So then I just started and just kept going. So you know. But my background you know. My parents were in special effects as well, so I'm a bit accustomed to just the whole dynamics of the craziness and the drug use and everything. You know they're from the 70s, so you know, in 80s, so you can imagine some of that. Well, my next experience was I worked on a movie called the Guardian, which I'm sure you probably seen.

Nicola: 8:32

And just give it, because I'm terrible with movies, which one was the Guardian? The one was Josh Hartnick, and the one with the helicopter in the water.

Annon: 8:41

Yes, yes, yes. So yeah, that was the next one. And what happened was it was a very it was very small company, so it was very, very stressful. And the thing is, is it? There was an autistic guy, I think he was autistic and I made we were all getting sick and I made a joke about somebody touching his computer and all that and he went off the rails and so he spat my face, then threw a chair at me and then went to lunch and me and my buddy were like what the hell is going on, you know, because I'd never experienced anything like that either, and so he comes back.

Nicola: 9:32

He threw a chair at you and he sped at you, I feel like in this instance, and you were fucking with him.

Annon: 9:37

I feel like you were the talker, the only thing I made a very simple joke about. Hey, we've all been sick, and because it was like there was like a weird, you know just sickness going on, and I said well, you know, steve, what was at your computer? And you know he was touching it and he had been really sick. And Steve just blew up at me and so, yeah, so then, after he threw the chair and spit my face, we're sitting there. Were like what the hell just happened. And then he comes back from lunch and he proceeds to Lysol everything, so much so that we had, actually we had to leave the room because it was just toxic. And you know, the good thing, though, is that, years later, we work together and we're very friendly, and you know all right.

Gina: 10:34

So can you tell us sort of how did you start working for the main company we're going to be talking about? How did you start working with them and were there any red flags? Beyond the normal Hollywood or you know, big mover and shaker in the entertainment?

Annon: 10:55

Yeah, well, first I randomly I was in Los Angeles and I randomly sent this company my resume and like an hour later I got a response saying hey, come out here. And initially I was. My contract was for seven months and that was pretty much it. And you know there are very long days. You know we were doing eight hour weeks and plus and so much so that sometimes we slept under our deaths. So it was very in the early days. It was very intense. And over the years, you know I've worked on many films and over the years they've scaled everything back due to the laws governing. You know the hours you can work and such.

Nicola: 11:59

But yeah, let's talk a little bit about those laws, right? So I've, like, this is one of the things that I'm really curious about because you know we. So, just to keep in mind, because we haven't really explained, because we know that you were a former employee at the place that we're going to talk about today but there was a particular law that passed in New Zealand called the Hobbit Law. It was formally known as the Employment Relations Law and it became well known across the board in 2011. And the law essentially, fundamentally changed the employment landscape for film production workers in the country. Originally, it was designed to address industrial disputes that threatened the production of the Hobbit, because this, you know, hobbit was made here.

Nicola: 12:50

We've had Avatar, we've had Lord of the Rings, like we've had a lot of big, big movies made here, and so it was originally addressed to, you know deal with the Hobbit movie films. And the law had a broader implication on contract workers in the entertainment industry in general. So the key points that came out of this particular law change was contract status. It classified film workers as contractors rather than employees and unless they had a written employment agreement stating otherwise, this meant that the contractors were not entitled to certain legal protections that employees typically enjoy, such as collective bargaining, sick leave, holiday pay, acc, protection against unjustified dismissal. There was also a lack of bargaining power. So there's very little bargaining power for those contractors in New Zealand. They can't engage in collective bargaining through unions, significant disadvantage in an industry where the jobs are project-based. Job insecurity as well. The nature of film production, you know, involves tight schedules, we know, and project-based work.

Annon: 14:37

Being a contractor makes this Setting the job security even more precarious and you essentially hired for a project or even part of a project, with no obligations for long-term employment well, typically we would get these if you're lucky enough, you get a year contract in such but what they do is is they treat you Like an employee but they expect you to be a contractor. So any any sick time that you take off, you know you're kind of it's kind of frowned upon and you know it's it's, definitely it's, it's it's trying to have both worlds With, with the exception of you're not an employee. You know it's, it's it's you're an employee, or expected to act like an employee, but you're a contractor and you don't get any of those benefits of being an employee.

Gina: 15:41

And do they do that now?

Nicola: 15:43

Yeah yes we know that we had, you know, these implications for contract workers, which is essentially what this organization employees. Now there are two, I want to say there are two houses almost is where the digital and there's where to workshop, where the digital is the visual effects arm and they're into their computer generated imagery and they've made movies like avatar, avengers, most recently cocaine bear, and they focus more so on digital visual effects, media, animation and CGI, and then there, is another arm called where to workshop, and they focus on practical prop design and Manufacturing and they kind of has tangible elements.

Nicola: 16:35

So they have prop design manufacturing, creature design, special effects, makeup, and then main projects were the Chronicles of Narnia, mad Max, district 9, and I think the reason you know kind of getting right into the nitty gritty of it. Both companies are part of the waiter group and they're very distinct entities with their own specializations, but they've both got very different workplace culture issues and that's kind of what we wanted to speak about. They're based in Wellington, new Zealand. You know, being part of huge iconic films, won numerous awards, but all that is all that glitters is not called jokes when Employees have like. When we've spoken to previous employees that have joined this organization, they've described it as the holy grail for creativity. But what's changed is that there is a culture of toxicity, bullying, harassment that have overshadowed that creative work as well. And While the allegations are pretty serious and varied, there's been a lot around, you know, kind of the revelation of the existence of the caveman, which I'm sure you can tell us.

Nicola: 18:03

So in in 2020, two independent reviews were conducted. You know, qc did an 11 week review of where the digital, involving interviews with over 200 current and former employees. Much like yourself, she received 80 complaints of bullying and another 120 complaints of inappropriate conduct. She made 17 recommendations, including developing a code of conduct and improving and reporting mechanisms that the management, including the founders, had expressed commitment to implement these recommendations. At where to workshop, there was another review held, but it was the review cleared the company allegations leading to further controversy. No-transcript uh recommendations. At Weta Workshop, there was another review held, but it was the review cleared the company allegations leading to further controversy because Hyde found the allegations to be unsubstantiated, which raised questions around the investigations. Thurriness fairness did they interview enough people, were the right questions asked and there was a lot of insight into the fact that you know kind of they had learned from the QC issue and started getting people to do NDAs, which is really interesting as well.

Annon: 19:23

Yeah Well, we, we all, we always we have to sign it in NDA anytime, you know we get a contract extension. The thing is is with like the, the, the cave and such, I think a lot of it is the pressure and working long hours and literally people have hard liquor on their desks and are drinking throughout the day can make for a bit of a bit of a kind of elastic reality around certain behaviors. It's definitely not, you know, you definitely don't want a bottle of vodka at your desk or a full, or some people actually had full bars. And then you find people looking at these, you know, graphic pornography at their desks, just randomly, and it's like what the hell is that? It's, it's. It wasn't really acceptable, acceptable back in America, back in the 90s. You know it's, it's.

Nicola: 20:40

So how did? How did they get away with it Like what you know it's.

Annon: 20:45

So explain to Gina what the caveman is, because well, the caveman was kind of like a post that people would do, where they would put, you know, graphic jokes, pornography, you know just random ideas about certain women that worked at the studio and you know, and basically it was just a very it was very boys club, you know very kind of like the post, though like it was it was an, it was an internal system, that that that you could share things with yeah yeah.

Annon: 21:31

So yeah, definitely was it. Like I said, in that time there was a lot of drinking, there are very long hours and there are some very crude people that you know kind of abused people or you know had subjects or topics that they would talk about, people and such, and these are mainly women, you know it was trouble like specifically for this. No, it finally got shut down, you know, because people were talking about it. It's like they don't want anyone to know this.

Nicola: 22:20

How did the cavemen kind of relate back to porn Friday?

Annon: 22:25

Well, that, that that I think those two were related. So, yeah, the caveman thing, or cave thing, predates my time there. It went back to like 2005, I think so it's. You know it went on until like 2013, 2014, or 2015. And then it was. I guess HR got involved and was like this is unacceptable. You know it's. It was definitely a very different time in the company, even though now it's become much more corporate and you don't see that anywhere anymore, which is good. But yeah, it definitely. You know it was. It was a bit crazy back in, you know the early days or earlier days.

Gina: 23:25

So was it more so like that it grew out of the caveman posts like people were putting like pornographic stuff in that messaging system and then, once that got shut down, it kind of morphed into what was it. What do you guys call it?

Nicola: 23:39

Friday.

Annon: 23:43

I never partook in that but, but I witnessed it and you know, so can you explain what exactly a typical porn Friday was like.

Gina: 23:53

I must know.

Annon: 23:57

Well, it's just a lot of sharing of graphic images of women you know and and and various states of undress and you know situations.

Nicola: 24:13

So, so so tactful yeah well, what's that?

Gina: 24:17

What'd you say, nicola? So tactful, yeah, I mean I think I think most people know what pornography is, but I think we're. I'm well for me. I'm curious, like how did it become? Like, did men and women participate in this? I mean I understand women were sort of on the receiving end of like but like, how did it become like a company, wide thing?

Annon: 24:43

Well, the thing is is that we work in a mainly dominated in the past by men and it's just kind of like a, you know, it's like I would describe it as maybe a little bit of a fraternity mentality, where it's just like a bunch of guys sharing stuff with guys, but there were women around which was made them uncomfortable and was very unpleasant and it's like. You know, like I said, I was never into that because I'm like, I'm here to work, you know, but it was. It was more of like kind of a boys club.

Nicola: 25:23

And anyone who did participate in porn Friday.

Annon: 25:26

Yes, Wait there?

Gina: 25:30

wait okay. So did the majority of people participate in porn Friday?

Annon: 25:36

Well, like I said back, it was mainly men, but you know, we had. We had people that were getting busy in the showers.

Gina: 25:52

Hold on, because I was going to say, I was going to say like there's nothing worse in my opinion. I'm thinking about this and I'm like if I were to get like super turned on at work, like what, what's the point, what's the end game? Well, that would be horrible. I'd be like I want to go and sex with my partner, but I can't because I'm stuck at work. Like what is the? Yeah, like I don't understand.

Nicola: 26:16

Have you got people like at work, like what's happening.

Annon: 26:22

Well, no, so so we, we, we have these showers, and a few of the people would get busy in the showers, and so much so that the, the, the, the great guy that was doing facilities he had to clean up condoms from the shower floor.

Gina: 26:42

People like at least clean up after yourself.

Annon: 26:44

That's not not it's, it was. You know it's. It's definitely changed now. It's not it's, it's definitely not not that way. But yeah, I mean it would. You know it. Literally people were getting busy with each other and the the, the certain areas that could, and you know it you know it just happened.

Annon: 27:10

You know it was just like I said I was. I was oblivious to most of it. You know, most of the time I'm just like I just sit on my desk and work. But yeah, definitely was, you know, a bit a bit crazy. You know it's. It's when there's a lot of, there's a lot of interactions with people, interactions going on with several different people, just because they were like, you know, fuck it, you know I can do it. There was much more. It was much more free kind of going environment then. But you know that's all definitely change very, you know, drastically, which is a good thing.

Gina: 27:57

So yeah, and what was the downfall when, like, how did how did it change so drastically? So it was, it was maybe from this review.

Nicola: 28:11

Yes there was this huge review that was done, and then a whole bunch of stuff had to change and, yeah, one of the things that came out of the review though and I'm curious to know a little bit more about this as well he's in the review both where to workshop and where to digital were accused of setting unrealistic deadlines, overloading workers with work and creating a culture where hoarding work became necessary to appear busy, and obviously, in those kinds of instances, you know your stress level is is really really high. What has changed with regards to, like that overloading of work and that kind of unrealistic expectation? Because that creates its own toxic environment. It creates its own little toxic ecosystem.

Annon: 28:58

In my opinion it hasn't really changed. The bid days keep getting shorter and they expect more, but they still want a high performance. So it's in that sense it hasn't changed, although it's sexual stuff and all that you know. I think a lot of the bullying has has gone away, but you know it's, it's now it's being run by an American company and they expect an American kind of you just keep going, you just keep going. And what they do is is a lot of the friends in in the past have gone away because it's like you get to a certain age, it's like I can't compete with these kids anymore. You know it's, it's you've done a lot of work and literally it's it's you have to. You're only as good as your last shot, or you know getting the work done.

Nicola: 30:06

So yeah, what do you feel, especially with like due to the nature or the competitive nature of the industry, the scarcity of jobs, you know, obviously employees choose not to speak up or speak about their experiences. What do you think is kind of the mental health, of the psychological impact of that persistent stress, the long hours Like? What kind of impact do you think that has on? You know people in on doing the work.

Annon: 30:39

Well, people will self-medicate, you know they try to take time off and such, but it's definitely it's destructive to your mental wellness, Because there's been an industry wide called Race to the Bottom, where, you know, a lot of the work is outsourced to India, you know China, Korea and such, and so what happens is it's you have to try to keep up with all those stressors and the thing is is it leads a lot of people to, you know, like I said, self-medicate and such.

Nicola: 32:02

Burnout. One of the things in the review is that former employees had spoken about becoming agoraphobic and being completely burnt out, that they left the industry. Yeah, agoraphobic, sorry, agoraphobic, agoraphobic and never leaving the house again.

Annon: 32:24

And there was. There was this person, this trans person, that literally just up and quit because they couldn't deal with the harassment and just the negativity and, you know, along with the work stress, so it's like you know, it coupled all those different things together and was just too toxic for the person to be there and they left.

Gina: 32:51

And I feel like that they should have left. That's terrible. They're being like bullied and then like overloaded. Right yeah, and it was and it was.

Annon: 33:01

The person was very professional and very achieved. It was just. It just became too much for them to deal with.

Nicola: 33:10

So I'm also curious to know do you like in your like in your circle, do you know anyone that's also left the industry because of kind of the pressures or the the experience that they've had?

Annon: 33:25

Yeah, a few of the people that I know. We're just like you know what. I don't want to do this anymore. It's just you know, like I said, it's always, you're always working on deadlines and notes and things, and it can get a bit frustrating with the hours and, and you know, some people will give these weird notes that make no sense and it's it just gets frustrating. So, yeah, and my circle, four people have left. They're just like I'm done.

Nicola: 34:04

What do they end up doing Like? What do they? What do they end up like?

Annon: 34:09

Well, one one is a is an Uber driver, okay, and, and a couple of others, literally one of my, one of my friends. What happened was he was he was driving by the road and he saw you know the guys that are that hold the signs and he's like you know what, I'd rather do that than do this job. What's that?

Gina: 34:37

Like the lollipop people, like the people, yes yes, yes, yes, he was like you know because, like people on the side of the road with signs, in here is like you're begging. No no, no, no no.

Nicola: 34:50

I'm thinking those people that, like, hold the signs like an arrow and it's like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like road workers.

Gina: 35:01

I was like he'd rather be begging for money than go to work.

Nicola: 35:05

That's, you know, he's like, I'm like, you're like no, no, no, he wasn't begging for work.

Annon: 35:15

He, he, literally he looked and he saw that the guys on the side of the road during the construction had a very low, you know, aggravation level and he was like you know what. I'll do that instead.

Gina: 35:31

You know doing that now. Yes.

Annon: 35:34

And is the level of?

Gina: 35:36

stress better.

Annon: 35:41

It definitely is less stressful, I think, than this industry, and he'd been in the industry for many, many years.

Nicola: 35:49

So he was wild.

Annon: 35:51

Yeah, now, he was just at his wit's end. But yeah, it's definitely like I said. It's when they keep shirking the bid days and you're competing with younger people that get paid less and you get a bit older, it gets to a point where you're just a bit just burnout.

Nicola: 36:19

You just want to explain for the listeners what a bid day is, because I feel like that's a concept in itself.

Annon: 36:26

Well, a bid day is essentially the amount of time that they want you to complete a task so you can have a shot that basically, they say it should take two to three days to do this. But sometimes that's not true and sometimes you get these. You have a lot of things to do in a certain shot and then what happens is they're like, well, you just need to hurry up, but they still expect perfection. So it's definitely the amount of time they expect you to do a certain project or a certain shot.

Gina: 37:09

Okay, so they're like allotting. I mean, I do this too, like with some of the people who report to me like I'm like we need it by X day, but they get room to negotiate, like okay, well, then that means I can't do X, y and Z by this day. I'm like, okay, like prioritizing your stuff. But first of all, I just want to go on the record that I thought you were saying big day, like this is a big day, and then when Nicholas said it, I thought she was saying bid day, like the cheat thing, and I was like so confused. So thank you for clarifying.

Annon: 37:46

Yeah, it's a bid day. It's bidding out a certain amount of time.

Gina: 37:50

No, I get it now.

Annon: 37:51

But like the audio.

Gina: 37:53

I just was like what are we even talking about? I think most people know what a bid day is, nicola, why would you ask that?

Nicola: 38:01

Yeah, because the work is shit. So you got to like bid day your bat.

Annon: 38:06

Do you know what? Well, I can go into a whole other aspect about the bathroom techniques that happen, which you know?

Gina: 38:16

Oh my God, wait what. What's what bathroom?

Annon: 38:19

techniques. Well, some of the people, some of the people out here can be a bit crude.

Nicola: 38:30

You know, just like let's rip the band-aid off and just tell us exactly what's going on. Because why?

Annon: 38:38

I've witnessed feces being wiped on the walls. A guys walk around, they they urinate and they don't. They just wait.

Gina: 38:49

Why is this a farm animal?

Annon: 38:53

It's, it's, it's, it's weird. I don't understand the culture. Some people are very respectful and all that, but there are some people that literally will you know, piss everywhere and like.

Gina: 39:04

I said I've seen what is the point of that I have. I don't know if they want to do that.

Annon: 39:10

They're marking their territory. I don't know.

Gina: 39:13

At work.

Annon: 39:14

At work. Yes, I'm so confused.

Gina: 39:16

I'm so confused. But like cause, like whenever I hear about like poop being wiped on anything. It's either like an infant who like got in her diaper or whatever it was, or like that happens in jail, like when they don't have anything else to retaliate with. They'll like wipe feces all over to get, like the CO's, to come in and clean up, like that's what I associate that with.

Nicola: 39:37

Maybe this is their this is their.

Gina: 39:40

Is this their version of jail?

Annon: 39:43

It's well, I think you know, maybe it is. I never understood it, but I've seen a lot of feces.

Gina: 39:51

How are you still even working there. Like if I saw one thing of feces on the wall in the woman's bathroom, I would be out. I would have like a complete hissy fit.

Nicola: 40:05

I don't even. You and I have spoken a lot about poop, gina, and I wouldn't even like I wouldn't even poop. My poop would be so scared to poop.

Gina: 40:15

I mean if I was still like to me and I don't want to go too much down a rabbit hole on this. But like if I had like colleagues who felt okay doing that, I would be concerned about their mental health and also like what's actually happening here. I would be like how are these people getting in positions of power or jobs and then they also feel like they can wipe poop on the wall? I'd be out. I'd be like this is not the right fit for me. I don't think.

Annon: 40:48

Well, unfortunately, in my experience, you know I've done this all my life. Now you know I'm older and you just kind of deal with it. You know, like I said, back in Los Angeles there was a lot of drug use and a lot of you know very.

Gina: 41:08

That was also the timing, like in the 90s, like the 80s and 90s, like I don't think you could have thrown a cat at someone who was sober, like in any industry, right.

Nicola: 41:18

Like right.

Gina: 41:20

So I mean now I, at least from what I understand, it's not as prevalent, but maybe I'm wrong Like the open drug use, and maybe alcohol is a little bit more okay, Just because you're legally allowed to do that. I don't know.

Annon: 41:37

Well, I know well, it's definitely improved. We do beer clock and I've heard about stories of what people going off on beer clock and just getting a bit crazy. I don't, but yeah, it's definitely it's improved.

Gina: 41:55

So most of the people that I know who are in the entertainment industry either are now sober or were just like never. Like that. They had to get sober to stay, you know, to stay employable.

Annon: 42:07

Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's. The thing is is that you definitely need to figure out what you want to do or you know, and the thing is that a lot of people are that I've known, got sober or left the industry, right, but because it's, it's unsustainable.

Nicola: 42:28

Right. So would you recommend to young people coming in to get into this industry, or are you like hashtag, avoid, avoid, avoid.

Annon: 42:41

I would recommend that nobody gets into the industry because, like I said, there is there is a VFX soldier and the whole idea of race to the bottom, and so you just have to keep. You just have to keep. You either achieve a level of success that you don't have to deal with it, or you just have to deal with it and live with all the ramifications that you know, transpire from you know working long hours and deadlines that are unreasonable.

Gina: 43:20

Yeah.

Annon: 43:21

Do you?

Annon: 43:22

feel like you're still like always, like running, like behind schedule or yes, unless you, unless you get a string of shots that that you can go through and work through and get it done in the bed. Days aren't crazy. You know it's, it's, you're always, you're always running and you know, at some point. You know, if you're younger it's a bit easier, but you know, as you're older, it's like what the hell am I doing? You know it's it's, you know, maybe I should be doing something entirely different, you know, but I definitely would not recommend any young people get involved in this industry because, as I said, it's it's. You're competing with the world, and you know, and you have no, none of the job security and you have none of the benefits of of having sick time or time off, and you're, you're looking to skance if you take any time off for health or personal issues. So, yeah, it's definitely it's, it's, it's, you know find something.

Gina: 44:40

How glamorous is it really during like making a movie? I have a feeling it's probably grueling and it's awful.

Annon: 44:48

Well, it's actually not very it's. It's not glamorous at all. Hold on, I need to charge my phone, hello.

Gina: 44:57

Yeah, okay, bye.

Annon: 44:58

Hello, goodbye, hello.

Gina: 45:00

Bye. I'm like terrified of even saying anything.

Nicola: 45:12

I see this. It's distressing.