Protect Species Podcast
This podcast is a production of the Global Center for Species Survival, which is a partnership between the Indianapolis Zoo and the International Union for Conservation of Nature Species Survival Commission (IUCN SSC). We record all episodes at the Indianapolis Zoo in the Bedel Financial Media Studio, made possible by a generous gift from Elaine and Eric Bedel.
Protect Species Podcast
For the Birds: Ornithology as a Gateway into Conservation Biology
Soaring through the skies of conversation, we welcome our colleague Dr. Sam Ivande, the Bird Conservation Coordinator at the Global Center for Species Survival. He's also a cardinal enthusiast with a wealth of knowledge about birds and community science. In a narrative that spans from personal connections to the environmental significance of our avian friends, Sam weaves a tapestry of anecdotes that reveal the profound kinship we share with birds. The gentle chirp of a backyard visitor, the silent glide of a distant raptor; our discussion illuminates the mosaic of human-bird relationships, from the simple joys of birdwatching to the complex challenges these creatures face due to human interference.
Like a bird takes flight on unexpected winds, Sam's journey into conservation biology has been filled with twists and turns. How exactly did make his way from architecture to ornithology? Sam shares his passion for our feathered friends and the folks who are trying to protect them. Learn how birdwatching has created a flock of its own that's filled with as much vibrance and diversity as we find among the birds themselves.
Links:
State of the World’s Birds Report
Citizen Science
Merlin Bird ID App
eBird App
Preventing Bird Window Strikes
Attention, please, calling all birders, both novice, professional and aspiring ones. Today's episode is right up your street and you don't even have to bring your binoculars. Today we're joined by our colleague Dr Sam Ivande, who is the Bird Conservation Coordinator here at the Global Center for Species Survival and also a cardinal enthusiast. I'm Monni Böhm.
Justin Birkhoff:And I'm Justin Birkhoff. Welcome to the Protect Species podcast, where we celebrate biodiversity and converse with conservationists. How's it going, Monni?
Dr. Monika Böhm:It's going all right. We're talking birds today, Justin. I hope birds. I hope. Nobody asked me anything specific about birds. Oh no, hang on, we're asking the questions.
Dr. Sam Ivande:We're in the clear Good, definitely I was panicking because literally birds I mean they've got wings.
Justin Birkhoff:Feathers. Feathers are important. I know they just hollow bones. That's a big one too. Flit about no teeth yeah.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I know they hang out in our gardens.
Justin Birkhoff:They look kind of pretty, yeah, some of them are a, Some of them are a draft, but then you go like oh, you look pretty.
Dr. Monika Böhm:and then it just flies away. It's like what is this?
Justin Birkhoff:Stop being so fickle. So what do you actually know about birds other than they have feathers and they're fickle?
Dr. Monika Böhm:I mean that's pretty much it. I mean I like to think of birds as the slightly lesser group of reptiles, because they've got the same ancestors.
Justin Birkhoff:A little bias there, huh.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I know absolutely, and you can just not make me lose that bias. I love reptiles so much.
Justin Birkhoff:That's like what birds should have been. I mean, my favorite dinosaur is a feathered one, because they're way more fun that way.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Yeah, I mean sure, but also dinosaurs. They're gone. Stop living in the past, justin. Stop living in the past, justin. Stop living in the past. I'll try that. What is it with you and living in the past? Come on, it's my fleeting youth. It's the fleeting youth You're making me very nostalgic. So being nostalgic, favorite bird from your childhood.
Justin Birkhoff:First bird memory. First bird memory. When I was a young justin, I remember so we grew up we had a big backyard and we had a boatload of bird feeders and we got all sorts of fun songbirds in the backyard. But most of my big bird memories is one of our cats killing morning doves and every time she'd get a bell and at one point she had 12 bells around her neck and was still taking birds. So we abandoned that. So it's probably not the really-.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So you tried to slow her down. It's not the uplifting story you were looking for. You should have made the bells heavier, Because if you slow her down, frankly that would help Put like a massive weight around her neck.
Justin Birkhoff:But for the more kind of positive one, we we used to feed um scrub jay's peanuts on the back fence so we'd put them out. They'd come and get them and then stash them, and we'd find them throughout the backyard. And then um grew up in San Francisco, lived really Golden Gate Park to the and we would get red tail hawks that would come and hunt our plethora of passerine birds. So seeing the red tails was always a fun adventure. So I think you know, even in an urban setting I did have an exposure to birds at a young age, even though I don't know them very well, being colorblind San Francisco even cool for birds.
Justin Birkhoff:Even cool for birds, let's have reptiles. It's a little chilly there you go.
Dr. Monika Böhm:That's why birds have a leg up on reptiles I know, but but that's because I just have it easier. You know, reptiles try harder. I don't know. Is that true?
Justin Birkhoff:What's your first bird memory?
Dr. Monika Böhm:Well, mine is people called me Snow White and I just sat there and they landed on my arm and I started singing with them. No, sadly, that's not true. That would have been really awesome. I love that picture what a beautiful day. I don't know. That's not even a song from there. I don't even know the song.
Justin Birkhoff:That's good, because we don't want any copyright infringement. Oh yeah, that's true.
Dr. Monika Böhm:No copyright infringement. Even if I sing a song, that's actually a song, because nobody will be able to recognize it. It's a special talent. I've got Favorite bird memory. Probably is that my favourite bird. I do have one. That's good. No, honest, I do have one. I may joke about them, but I do have one. It's the European jay, and they would just hang out in the back of our. We also had a big garden. Ooh, I like a big garden, I know, I know. I was not growing up in San Francisco, though, so, yeah, I would just watch them all the time. I loved them. And also, at some point we had a nest box, and I think it was a species of tit, which I've now forgotten what it is, and they were fledging and we desperately tried to keep them safe by following them around in the garden and shooing off all of the magpies.
Justin Birkhoff:Oh yeah.
Dr. Monika Böhm:And I'm sad to say that also, the last one was also eaten by a magpie, despite my best attempts to shoo them off. Once they fly over the fence and you have to climb a fence first to kind of, you know, scare another bird off they just have an advantage they're flitty, I keep telling you, they're just more, more nimble, um, but yeah, so that's probably. That's probably not my favorite bird moment, because it was a little bit traumatic but I like the sentiment, I like the sentiment of us trying at least to help that's good.
Justin Birkhoff:well, I mean, it segues nicely, because Sam likes to talk a lot about community involvement in birds and birding, so I think you were involved as a community, it's probably not what we want to encourage. It sounds more like trespassing than it does anything else.
Dr. Monika Böhm:It was a pasture that we always played in. It's fine, that's fair.
Justin Birkhoff:So, Sam, we have a bunch of questions for you today, but I'm particularly interested why are you a Cardinal enthusiast? First, since Monni felt the need to really drive that home.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I mean, ultimately, it was the script writer who really wanted to drive this home. I also want to know the answer to this question why Cardinals?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, so I will say the Cardinal kind of have some reputation and I had encountered the Cardinals from seeing mascots and other symbols even before moving here to the US, and so the Cardinal is something that I kind of already had some knowledge about and I was really looking forward to seeing. Of course you can tell the cardinal is really eye-catching, is bright red. I really find the colors fascinating. So I was looking forward to seeing my first one, and so you can tell how excited I was when he was pointed out to me the very first day I saw it, the first live cardinal that I was able to see. I would also add that sometimes, you know, for people like us who like to list birds and make a note of when we have seen it, it's always a big deal when we see a new one. And the cardinal with all of its bright red colors and all of its glory right before me, you know that was a big moment for me.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Awesome. We probably have to backtrack a tiny little bit For the purpose of our listeners. Sam has joined us here at the Global Center for Species Survival, from Nigeria. Hence the life, the first sighting of a cardinal. That's right.
Justin Birkhoff:Yeah, yeah. And that leads nicely into kind of our first really big question is you know your?
Dr. Sam Ivande:That was a big question.
Justin Birkhoff:It was a big question, or your second big question so you know, your journey to become an ornithologist and then your journey here is kind of an interesting story. Can you give us kind of a quick rundown on what first got you interested in birds, where your career was with birds before you joined the team here?
Dr. Sam Ivande:So, yeah, that's actually an interesting one for me. So I first got introduced and interested in birds during my first year as an undergraduate student studying biology. But there's a backstory to that because I would say, studying biology was not something that I was looking forward to doing. The only remotely connected thing I would say to that was that I loved the outdoors. So I really was looking forward to a career that will kind of give me the opportunity to spend time outdoors. But somehow I thought I could do that as an architect. But yeah, I had my cousin, an architect, who spent time designing buildings at night and then who'd go out during the day to kind of supervise and see what people were doing with the designs he had put together. And so I kind of thought, yeah, well, the opportunity to go outdoors, not spend all of the time in the office, was great. So, as it is with our parents, sometimes they kind of have other ideas, and so there was some back and forth with my parents about what I should do when I go to the university.
Dr. Sam Ivande:I thought architecture was what I wanted to do. My parents taught it should be medicine. We went back and forth. We settled for pharmacy and I applied to study pharmacy, I was offered biology, so that's how it started for me. So you can tell, everything was set up not for me to really enjoy this, but then as a first year undergraduate student. During one of the first outings, a professor at the university who had just returned from doing a PhD studying birds in the US was then introducing ornithology to us as first year students and you know I thought that was really interesting and prior to that time I had no idea that people spent time, you know, professionally studying birds. But then, of course, there was also the really exciting aspects to bird watching that he, you know, he talked about. So that was my first introduction to birds, something really different, something unique, and of course it then presented the opportunity for me to spend time outdoors. So, yes, that was my introduction to BIRDS.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I love. I love the setup of like what jobs are outside? Name a few it could be. Any of those Medicine, to be quite honest, would have not been very outside, unless you're like a paramedic or something, but that's only sometimes outside.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Oh, I at least. I can add that I was very vehement about not wanting to study medicine. That much I knew. I wasn't sure what I wanted, but at least I knew medicine was my thing.
Justin Birkhoff:That's good. That's a good story to talk about too. Justin, what?
Dr. Monika Böhm:did your parents want you to be when you were young? I don't think they really pushed anything.
Justin Birkhoff:I actually started California parents everybody. It's like whatever you want to be son. To be fair, I started pre-med so I diverged as well, and it was a similar sort of experience I got exposed to. I was doing research with elephant seals not birds, but it was an opportunity like that that really kind of pushed me into this. So you know, it's not the same story but there's a fair amount of parallels.
Dr. Monika Böhm:My dad wanted to be me, to be a banker.
Justin Birkhoff:That worked out well, didn't it? It worked out really well.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Yeah, absolutely. We laughed and moved on with our lives. I think it's fair to say so, Sam, you, you mentioned that. Um, you got introduced to the whole concept of some people do that for their job. They go and look at birds, and I mean birds really inhabit pretty much well everywhere on the planet, which also means that we can pretty much find birders everywhere.
Dr. Sam Ivande:That is correct.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Can you tell us a bit about the birding community and kind of like the stuff that's not the cliche seeing people with you know, massive binoculars and lenses and anoraks wandering the fields and notebooks?
Dr. Sam Ivande:well describe it that way, yeah, well, so the bird community, it's a really interesting one, um, and I would say, like, like you already mentioned, birds are everywhere and so wherever there are birds there are people who are interested in them. You begin to find, you know, a community growing around that interest, that common interest in birds, and so widespread community, and you can go from very small communities in local areas where people are interested in the local birds you know, to even broader communities where you know you can have them at a broader regional level. So myself, for example, prior to moving here, you know, I was a member of the Jos Bird Club, which is the local community where I live, one of the bird clubs that I helped start, especially because more and more people are beginning to get interested in birds. And then I also kind of belong to a much broader bird watching community, the African Bird Club, which is region wide. So again, you have all of these communities coming together from local areas to much broader areas.
Dr. Sam Ivande:But the interesting thing is, with the birding community you find people at different levels of their engagement and their interests in birds. So from people who just really enjoy watching birds and going out and seeing them. To people who will spend a lot of time. You know photographing them. You know to also people who make lists for them and then lots of other people who take some more time. You know photographing them. You know to also people who make lists for them and then lots of other people who take some more time. You know observing and recording everything that they are doing and you know collecting all of that information and then you know putting it together and making some research out of that. So it's a broad community that takes care of people at different levels of interest in birds. Of course, the common connection is the birds.
Justin Birkhoff:I mean, it is like many communities is very welcoming and it's nice to hear that it has such a wide range of you know users in it. So you have, as you know Monni, mentioned during our intro is that people who are aspiring to be birders all the way on up to somebody who identifies themselves as a professional ornithologist or people who just want to be in the outdoors or people who just want to be in the outdoors.
Justin Birkhoff:Yeah, I mean, those people exist right, um, and I think one of the the things that's really interesting about is that it's such an open community and they kind of take you at face value. You're like, yeah, come on, let's go. You know, we're going to check out for whatever. You know, if it's a seasonal migratory bird or something like that, you know, what sort of experiences have you had as somebody who has devoted their life to this? You know, interacting with somebody who is, you know, doing it on a more kind of casual or amateur level? Is there any fun stories? You know? Have you had sort of opportunities to like blow somebody's mind about who you are and how you fit into this?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, so yeah, and I will say I've been on both ends. So I like to describe myself as someone who jumped in from the deep end and then started walking my way backwards and then started walking my way backwards. So the introduction that I got to birds, especially around an academic environment, then meant that I spent some time studying birds, and so most of my engagement with birds have been very professional. But then, after spending a long time studying birds, you know, as an undergrad, did a master's still focused on birds, did a PhD studying birds, then I came back and I was at the point where I was working to kind of build a community of people who would also kind of love this thing that I had come to really love, and so I spent a good number of years trying to build a birdwatching community around Nigeria, and one of the things I found interesting was just like I was, you know, as a first year student, being you know like really surprised that people spend time studying birds.
Dr. Sam Ivande:I find that there are lots of people who now, you know, look at me and like, well, did you spend all these years just studying birds? Just again, no, I wanted to be an architect. Yeah, exactly. But then to a point about an interesting story. So there was once when I was out looking for birds out in the fields and I met some herders. They had their cattle out in the fields and I was out there watching and the man was curious. He wanted to know what I was doing. And I told him while I was looking at birds, and his expression was oh, is that because there are no jobs?
Dr. Monika Böhm:So he didn't. I feel that may have also been in the early stages of architect medicine.
Justin Birkhoff:Oh, do you want to be an ornithologist?
Dr. Sam Ivande:You have all this free time to wander around in fields with the birds Like clearly you're not employed, yeah, so clearly he thought, yes, he thought this wasn't a real job and he thought I was only doing this because I didn't have anything better to be doing. So, yeah, that's. That's something I thought was really interesting.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Birding. It keeps people off the streets.
Justin Birkhoff:I mean unless you're an urban bird watcher, then you're probably still on the streets, yeah, but out of trouble, yeah, that's fair. Um, so, as animal people, this is probably the question that is definitely the most difficult to answer, the biggest question, the biggest question and the most meaningful. It's the most meaningful yes, absolutely well, if you're gonna pump it up, you get to ask it then I feel I'm not ready. I've not psyched myself up for it you go justin, do you have a favorite bird?
Dr. Sam Ivande:species.
Justin Birkhoff:Oh, the favorite species question we can also qualify and be like I have a favorite bird in Nigeria or I have a favorite bird in Africa. If you don't want to besmirch the rest of the bird world, you can make it regional if you'd like.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, thanks for the flexibility you've given me to answer this.
Dr. Sam Ivande:But it's always very difficult to pick a favorite species, and especially considering that there are so many beautiful birds and you know, like different organisms out there, that having a favorite one is always a difficult one to pick.
Dr. Sam Ivande:One is always a difficult one to pick, but I would say, maybe a favorite group of species, and now now that has also been evolving, but now I would say the owls are kind of like, my favorite group of species.
Dr. Sam Ivande:They look magnificent, you know, really cool species to see, always intriguing People would look at them, and you know there are lots of things that people connect with owls. Being someone who has also, you know, like, who comes from, you know, a community where owls are one of the like what will I say species that generate a lot of conversations, I think that owls are really good ones because a lot of the conversations that I had introducing people to birds kind of centered around owls. Because very quickly people will ask you you know all of the myths that surround the owls. Come up in conversations with people and then you get the opportunity to begin to. You know, tell them lots of other things that are also exciting about owls. Come up in conversations with people and then you get the opportunity to begin to tell them lots of other things that are also exciting about owls.
Justin Birkhoff:So it's a gateway bird? Exactly, it leads to harder birds. Yes, yes.
Dr. Sam Ivande:I think that's a good way to put it.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I think the harder birds are the little brown ones. They're like all waders Can. I just say wading birds. Exactly Literally for the more experienced birders. I've driven people insane who were trying to tell me the difference between different wading birds, and I was useless, as somebody who's partially colorblind, just birding in general is very difficult.
Dr. Sam Ivande:It's the green one. It's the green one, it's the green one. It's all the feathers Like no I don't believe you.
Justin Birkhoff:I think you're making stuff up now. No-transcript. I don't know if I have a specific one.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Our mammal coordinator. Everybody Doesn't have a favorite bird.
Justin Birkhoff:I'm a big fan, like Sam. I like a family of the birds. I find raptors in particular, to be quite interesting. Good group Eagles are just fascinating birds and I think if I had to narrow it down to one, it's probably say golden eagles. They're just absolutely incredible. The size is just really kind of hard to fathom, um, especially if you get one really up close and they, they just have a lot of, you know, personality, I think, for lack of a better word. Um, so they're, they're ones that I would say how about you, since you know you have very well established feelings about birds?
Dr. Monika Böhm:I love birds. They're like nearly reptiles nearly reptiles nearly reptiles, I think my favorite ones and I can I also go for a group generally, if that bird is found either in australia or in new zealand, the chances that I will like it are pretty high, keas k are phenomenal.
Justin Birkhoff:They're literally the most phenomenal birds, ridiculous birds.
Dr. Monika Böhm:And the Tui. If you ever wanted to look up the call of the Tui, it sounds essentially like R2-D2. It's brilliant. If you're a Star Wars fan, you're in for a treat.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Okay, yeah, very good, great choices, thank you.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Glad we get to stamp them a broom on Bird coordinator. Certified choices of birds. Sam's just relieved that we did say something.
Dr. Sam Ivande:We did ask birds it's like oh God, we got away with that one.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So let's talk a little bit about how birds are doing as a whole and what their conservation status is. I think there has been a recent State of the Birds report. Is that right? Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, that's right. So, um, the most recent state of the world's bird report, um, I think that came out towards the end of um 2022. And, um, it does a good job of telling us where we are, um, with the birds. But then, um, essentially the story that we see with the birds is pretty much, but then, essentially, the story that we see with the birds is pretty much what you can say about biodiversity in general. So just lots of not very good news, because a good number of bird species and now we are in a situation where we have somewhere around 12% of these birds now being threatened, so that's somewhere like one in eight bird species are now considered to be threatened.
Dr. Monika Böhm:And what are the biggest threats that affect birds? I assume it's similar to what impacts other biodiversity as well a whole range of factors.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, we would say very similar, as it is with all biodiversity. It's a big problem, especially when species are losing habitat. So habitat loss and degradation is one of the top threats that the birds are facing. If you think about it and you want to narrow it down to certain habitats, birds in the forest are also not doing very well, so deforestation is another threat that the birds are also having to face and deal with. There are other threats that we are beginning to see around all of the infrastructure that people are putting up, so some of the energy infrastructure that comes up. Especially when these are not put in places that have been given some consideration, then sometimes they can become problems for the birds.
Justin Birkhoff:So one thing that's kind of interesting that we see in birds that we don't necessarily see in freshwater systems or in mammal systems or invert systems there is a good percentage of birds that are highly migratory, so moving over vast distances, utilizing different resources throughout the year. How is that reflected in the state of the birds report and how does that change the way that we go about trying to protect bird species? Because you have a local passerine or a local songbird, what you need in order to protect one of those is different than something that's migratory, migrating across continents or even for some species that go pole to pole.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, that's right.
Dr. Sam Ivande:So the migratory birds are an interesting group because, like you rightly mentioned, local birds, you might have to do a few things within the immediate environment and that could help with them, but the migratory birds have, you know, a very wide range, a lot of them because they have to depend on this several habitats that are separated in space and also in time, and so you have birds that, for example, will spend one part of the year in another part of the world and then during another part of the year they're in another part of the world.
Dr. Sam Ivande:And so migratory birds are one of the groups that, collectively, if we looked at them, they will give us a better picture of what's going on globally.
Dr. Sam Ivande:I like to say that birds, migratory birds in particular, help to connect our world. They help us to see, you know, how some of the things that we're doing in certain parts of the world might be having an impact in other parts of the world. So, if you think about it, a bird that migrates between you know, like the, between, maybe the tropics, and then in temperate environments, you know what people are doing in other parts of the world. So in the temperate environments, for example, will impact on the global population of those bird species. They move to the tropics where they spend, maybe, the winter, and then what happens in those winter habitats also then impacts the global population of these species. And so, you know, with these ones we have to know what's going on in every part of the habitats that they use, and so that kind of gives us an idea of how we are doing globally in terms of how we are, you know, treating the environment and the habitats that these birds depend on.
Justin Birkhoff:So that leads kind of into another thing. So BirdLife is a nonprofit organization named at Bird Conservation, and then we talk a lot about the Red List. You know the IUCN or the International Union for the Conservation of Nature's Red List, which measures a species threat of extinction. How does you know some of these factors about habitat degradation, some of these factors about habitat degradation, biodiversity loss, and how is that reflected in these two organizations and the measures that they're using to assess what a species risk is?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well. So with all of what is going on in the environment and we already mentioned, especially with the loss of habitats and how habitats are being degraded, it then also means that, with a lot of the birds, there is less and less habitat for them to use and, of course, the resources that they also depend on, and so, as populations continue to decline, we then end up with a situation where a lot of the birds are not doing very well, and of course, that also then means that how all of that information is used to then assess the risk that the birds are facing in terms of their extinction risk then continues to go higher, then continues to go higher Between the last assessments and now with the birds, a good portion of the birds and I can't remember what exactly the number is now, but we've had some more bird species move from the lower threat categories onto the higher threat categories. Some are really now putting it at a position where we have one in eight birds being considered at risk of extinction.
Justin Birkhoff:This podcast is a production of the Global Center for Species Survival of Indianapolis Zoo. We record all the episodes in the Bedel Financial Media Studio, made possible by a generous gift from Eric and Elaine Bedel.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So what happens after we've assessed these species? We know about one in eight birds threatened with extinction and it seems like so many factors are impacting them. What are conservationists? What actions are they taking to protect some of these birds, which I suppose is even more difficult when we start thinking or talking about migratory birds, because there are so many players involved in having action for these birds that span multiple countries and habitats.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yes.
Dr. Sam Ivande:So a lot of the information that gets pulled together to do all of these assessments also then kind of begins to give us some sort of indication as to what we need to do to make sure that the negative trends that we are seeing with bird populations or for a given species can be reversed, and so usually scientists will come together, or researchers, or all of the people, the various stakeholders that are involved, will come together and begin to look at the available information and begin to put together plans that we could then implement to make sure that the environment and habitats that the birds need and the conditions that all birds and indeed other species require to make that change in population trajectory is then put in place.
Dr. Sam Ivande:And so people coming together to put together those plans and ensure that everything that we need to have in place to improve the status is being taken into consideration, and then you know, collaborating and working together to make sure that those plans are implemented With the migratory birds, like you say.
Dr. Sam Ivande:This, then, means that you have to pull people together from, you know, different areas, all over the range of the species and all of the habitats that they require, you know, to complete that migratory journey, and so lots of agreements will have to be put in place, and so you have people you know coming together under some of these agreements. There is one of these agreements, or one of such endeavors, under what we call the Convention for Migratory Species CMS, called the Convention for Migratory Species CMS, that pulls together various partners in the different range states that migratory birds move over and collectively there are those actions that have been agreed upon, and then the range states are then expected to implement those actions which, if properly implemented, will then improve the conditions for the birds. So those kinds of instruments are used to ensure that the various range states and the people in those places are all kind of on the same page with what needs to be done for the conservation of migratory bird species.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I feel we've been a little bit negative, so let's spin it around and be a bit positive. Do you have a good news story, a positive conservation story for us to share on a bird species that may have actually improved in status?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, so that's yeah. It's also good to talk about some of the positive stories.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Yeah, I was starting to feel really sad. I felt something needs to happen.
Dr. Sam Ivande:So, yes, I think there are some positive stories, some success stories that go to show that when we trust the science, we look at the data, we look at the information, we act on it and we do some of the things that we all collectively agree that we can do to improve the conditions for birds, then that these things work and it can actually improve the trajectory for most of the species.
Dr. Sam Ivande:So back to some of the reports that we're talking about it's not all doom and gloom, so there are a couple of species that have made that recovery and are actually now on the upward trajectory. So a good number of day water birds are doing quite well, especially here in North America, where a lot of investments have been put into ensuring that wetlands and we have safe drinking water, and so all of the wetland environments are kind of getting some more attention, not only to ensure that we have safe and clean drinking water but also to ensure that the wetland habitats are also much improved, especially because people, you know, have seen the connection between wetlands and the water quality that we get, and so that has been a good one for a lot of the waterbeds, and so you will see that the geese and swan populations are doing a lot better than they were doing you, you know, like a decade ago which obviously also prompts me to mark today, the day this podcast is being recorded, is world wetlands day.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So happy world wetlands day. Everybody all focused on wetland restoration. It's time for wetland restoration, or something like this.
Justin Birkhoff:I believe it's the motto I feel like we should do that tagline better we should have a tagline all the time it's time to podcast, it is it's time to podcast. So I think one thing you know, knowing a bit about, you know kind of where you started and you mentioned a bunch of times you know the birding community and it's we. You know, we touched on that it's a, it's a global community, that it's everywhere. I imagine there's not a huge birdinging community in Antarctica because it's real cold, but you never know.
Justin Birkhoff:There's people down there doing research and it's the kind of people that would probably bird. And you mentioned all this data. There's not much else to do, it's true.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Keeps them out of trouble. It does keep them out of trouble, gets them outside, although they might not want that that might be a place to be in trouble outside.
Justin Birkhoff:So there's, you know, there's a concept that we've talked about a little bit before is citizen science, or community science, and you mentioned, you know, these action plans and these assessments require data, and so how does this, you know, amateur to semi-professional, professional birding community, how does that filter in to this data system and how does citizen science play a role in the conservation that you're helping coordinate and you have helped done in parts of your life, and how is it of value as a whole?
Dr. Monika Böhm:And can semi-professional and professional birders compete in the Birding Olympics?
Justin Birkhoff:I believe you have to be an amateur to complete, okay.
Dr. Monika Böhm:That's why.
Justin Birkhoff:I'm an amateur food server, so I can compete if my country needs me.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, so, um, I would say, um, a big, a big deal. So, um, the birding community, um, is part of the reasons why we know as much um about birds as we do know now. Having a big community of people, you know, pay attention to the birds, go out, have fun looking at the birds, but then also ensuring that they keep records and, you know, share. That is part of the reasons why you know we know as much about birds as we do now. A lot of the information that we have about the population trends you know, for birds has come from, you know, this birding community putting all of that information together. There are lots of databases out there that collate all of this information that citizen scientists are going out to collect and so people are able to, you know, we're able to tell the story about, you know, the, the population transfer birds, because of the information that is, are collecting all of this information and making it available, and you know, so, yeah, a huge deal, I would say.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I wonder, though that I mean, I used to live in the UK, where there's a lot of birders, but what?
Justin Birkhoff:do they call birders in the UK Twitchers, right Twitchers.
Dr. Monika Böhm:First time I heard that I was like. That sounds mean Well I mean we also just call them birders, but also so birders and trainspotters, that's like two big hobbies in the UK and I know that keeps you outdoors, gets you outdoors, keeps you out of trouble, so it's absolutely fine.
Dr. Monika Böhm:But could it be that sometimes maybe birders also could get in the way of conservation work or hinder it? I know that in the UK sometimes when there's a message about oh, a rare bird was just seen, that's a vagrant to the area or something, or that's like now here trying to breed for the first time or something Tons of birders come with their big scopes and so on to see this bird. Could this also be a hindrance in certain cases?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, and in certain cases, like you say, yes, this can be a hindrance and sometimes this leads to the conversations about you know what people talk about when you know sometimes we talk about sustainable tourism, or sustainable birding, as you would call it, one of the things being, you know, conversations around. You know all of the birding trips Sometimes. You know this involves a lot of travel. What's the carbon footprint of you know all of this endeavor. You know traveling great distances, you know, to see birds.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Of course, people who are really keen to see some birds would, you know, put in a lot of travel to do that. But are there ways that we can, you know, make sure that our birding is sustainable? So there are, you know, ideas around that conversations that you know continue to be had about how we can make birding sustainable. And of course, there is also, you know the situation with you know, like you described, when you know there's a rare bird somewhere and then you know, to someone who is probably not as keen you know for the birds, having so many people just move into your you know, your neighborhood or into the locality you know could more or less be considered like a nuisance. So we always have to think about. You know how we can make birding sustainable. So yeah, there are instances where, if we don't do this right, it could actually be like a hindrance.
Dr. Monika Böhm:And of course I didn't want to point a finger at the UK birders.
Justin Birkhoff:All my UK birding from being a personal hobby into a citizen science sort of experience Are there you know, semi-professional even. I don't know where you get the paychecks. I feel like the royalties are really small. More advanced amateur. More advanced amateur, more advanced amateur.
Dr. Sam Ivande:What sort of tools could you recommend to somebody that might be interested in doing that? So there are a couple of tools out there, and with the advancement in technology, more and more of these are becoming available. So I'm referring to some of the birding apps that are now available. The apps help not only to keep records, but then also to help with identification. It's like a pictures, or it didn't happen kind of experience.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, so, yes, we have apps like eBirds, where you know you can log your records when you're out birding, but then there's also apps like Merlin that help you to identify the bird. So, as someone who is getting interested in birding and you want to, you know, go out there and you know look at the birds and try to identify them yourself. You have Merlin that can help with that. It will ask you a couple of questions and you answer them referring to you know what you see, and then it will give you a couple of options and you know you can then, you know, identify the birds that you have. So there are a couple of tools out there that people can use, and these are just some of the many tools that are available out there some of the many tools that are available out there.
Justin Birkhoff:So at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that your original aspirations was architecture, and so you know. One thing that we also have to think about is when we talk about birds wildlife in general but we'll focus on birds here and human-dominated landscapes is architecture. So is there something specific about the way that we design buildings that are more beneficial to birds? Is it a career path that you ever aspire to? Is like, maybe I'll take my passion for birds that I've developed and then maybe revisit architecture at some point in the future, because you need more educations really to take away for that.
Justin Birkhoff:Also pays better.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yes, yes, it does. Oh well, yeah. So I think that's a great idea, although I've spent a lot of time now studying birds out in the wild and in the fields that I feel like perhaps you know like I'm doing what I should be doing, but again, just you know, making that connection between architecture and you know, like all of the infrastructure that we are now building all over and ensuring that it's safe for not just birds but other wildlife. Another one of the threats that um birds face from the um buildings that we put up um, which is the collision with um. You know, like glass um, which the birds um see through and sometimes are unable to tell. You know that there is a barrier, so it's like this invisible shit you know just in front of them and the fly right into it.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I'm sometimes unable to tell it's a barrier. I'm not going to lie. It happened on a few occasions.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Yeah, it does happen. It does happen to us. You can imagine it's much more of a challenge for the birds, especially when you have the glass. It's see-through and you have habitat on the other side. The bird is unable to detect that there is a barrier in between. So doing something to ensure that you know most of our buildings are safer for birds is something you know, where I see sort of an intersection and there's a lot of work and people have spent, you know like a lot of time thinking about this and sometimes you know just having to put on you know some some sort of you know stickers on the glass. You know having some some sort of image on the glass just to to make it obvious to the birds that you know there is a barrier here is something that people need to do now, and I think it's beginning to take on, with lots of architects who are beginning to incorporate this into their designs. Making sure that the infrastructure is also safe for birds and other wildlife.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So a potential future career path still. Yes, I like it. Or you could become an architect of bird boxes. Yes there is that Comfortable, comfortable living.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Luxury living, luxury one bed apartment, or an architect who helps to restore bird habitat.
Dr. Monika Böhm:There you go. That's the more sensible approach.
Justin Birkhoff:Yes, so we did this to Julia and put her on the spot. Do you have a favorite bird call?
Dr. Sam Ivande:I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that Now that I have to think.
Justin Birkhoff:You can steal Monty's from earlier. That's perfectly acceptable as well.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Yeah, just make an R2D2 impression.
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, maybe, sticking with my earlier answer and the team of owls, I would say maybe the owl calls the hoots from the owls could be some of the favorite ones that I would like to hear.
Justin Birkhoff:Don't feel pressured to do it.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Please don't ask me to. Don't feel pressured to do it, don't ask me to.
Justin Birkhoff:And just so everyone's aware, we have three professionals hooting into microphones, because we're professionals and amateurs.
Dr. Monika Böhm:When it comes to bird calls, I can definitely compete in the Olympics.
Justin Birkhoff:Is that because you're an advanced amateur?
Dr. Monika Böhm:No, I'm a basic amateur. I would probably not be selected for the team, but I will give it my all. Caw-caw Professionals.
Justin Birkhoff:Do you have any more questions? No further questions. I yield my time, so before we sign off, I have one last question for Sam. Is there anything that we didn't touch on? Was there a question that you hoped that we would ask, that you would like to talk about or share with our listeners?
Dr. Sam Ivande:Well, so we pretty much talked a lot about birds, but there's always for someone like me who considered birds as my gateway to nature. I would like to just add that sometimes the focus on just birds might be something that you know. When we tend to focus so much on the birds, it might tell it may not do them as much justice, you know, like as we should. So I would like to add here that birds are just one way that we can begin to appreciate nature, but they're not the only way that people get to appreciate nature no-transcript of saying like other species are available, enjoy them too.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Have you learned anything today? We did learn some things today.
Justin Birkhoff:So I think one of the big things that we learned is you know you. You can start on one path and then you know some, something else may find. You may find a passion you didn't know existed.
Dr. Monika Böhm:I also learned about a lot of jobs that are in the outdoors.
Justin Birkhoff:That's true, things that keep you off the streets and out of trouble. But I think one thing that's really interesting is, you know, is that that passion for wildlife and passion for outdoor spaces, you know is you can incorporate into any career. You know is is you can incorporate into any career. But sometimes you, you know, you start down one path and something comes up and you, you find something that you didn't really know you would fall in love in, and it's just there and it can change the trajectory of your life and you can make an impact, you know, at any level, um, as long as you're passionate about it and you're open to learning more things. So that was, that was one of the big takeaways for me.
Dr. Monika Böhm:Do you think you're on to learning more things? So that was, that was one of the big takeaways for me. Do you think you're on the?
Justin Birkhoff:right trajectory for that? I think so. Have you found it I?
Dr. Monika Böhm:sometimes I question it, but mostly when you're in the office well, I I think what I took away is that what's great about birds and I don't use that phrasing lightly usually, because I mean they are, you know, practically reptiles, which makes them cool, but they're not quite reptiles, which makes them a little bit less cool personal opinion, okay, um, but what's really great about them is that there is really this they are a gateway, a gateway species to connect people with the, with the natural world, and that's obviously something that we do take. Not everybody becomes a muscle enthusiast straight away, although I encourage lots of people to do to do so, and what that means is that because of the birds, we have this whole army of people who can, who can really contribute to conservation in a meaningful way and to science in a meaningful way, and we just need to kind of figure out how we can capture this for other species as well.
Dr. Monika Böhm:So bringing Sam along, who says other species are available, I think, is precisely what we need to do.
Justin Birkhoff:Well, I think you know in that vein was you know the connectivity that we have and you find it with migratory species across the taxon. But birds are a wonderful example because there's this robust community of people that are enthusiastic and love going out and spending time in in nature to watch them. But we have this entire community of people that are conservationists and they you know it's, it's for them, it's a hobby, it's something they're passionate about, and they can be architects or bankers, or doctors or pharmacists or whatever they want.
Dr. Monika Böhm:quite often they're. Often they're probably not bankers, probably not. No offense, sorry.
Justin Birkhoff:But you have these people that have a life that is, you know, have a career that is part of their life, and then they have this other thing as well is that it really embodies that anyone can really be part of conservation if they want to be, and there you can do it in a very small way, or you can do it in a very small way, or you can do it in a much larger way. You can dedicate your life to it without it being everything that you do and your entire identity. But we all have an ability and a part to play in it. But I will say that I was disappointed that we didn't use the word flocking, when people flock to look at birds. The pun was missed. And then also the canary in the coal mine.
Justin Birkhoff:So we go back to the. You know the state of the bird report is. You know birds are a wonderful indicator of what biodiversity looks like around the world, with that interconnectedness, and you know the puns and the cliches are fun, you know. But it really is true is that they are such a great indicator for us in a way that we can see that there's an active community looking for it. You know, sergio would argue that invertebrates are a better indicator. But there's not large groups of people who are out, you know, seeking out fireflies, much to his chagrin. So I think you know there's an ability for this to connect people, you know, into these wild places, into wildlife, into the plants, into the fungi and all of these other wonderful things. And it's a community that other taxa really just don't have at this point and we can look into ways to really improving opportunities for the average person, the amateur or the advanced amateur, to really get involved in this. Two points, two points, two points.
Dr. Monika Böhm:For our listeners. Sergio is our Invertebrate.
Justin Birkhoff:Conservation Coordinator. Yes, good point.
Dr. Monika Böhm:He loves fireflies and at some point he will become a guest on this podcast. Point two yeah, I'm a bit disappointed now that we missed those puns, but we did make a splash for World Wetlands Day.
