What is needed for better return to work?

In this edition of our regular podcast, Professor Kevin Daniels speaks to Dr Sema Etuknwa about her extensive work on improving return to work practices. Sema gives insights into good return to work from her Innovate UK part-funded knowledge transfer partnership between the University of Huddersfield and Swiss Re. She  describes the toolkit she has been developing to support better communication between all the return to work stakeholders involved in each worker's absence and return journey. 

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:28:03

Helen Fitzhugh

Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free evidence informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research Team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplace wellbeing.org 

00:00:28:05 - 00:00:30:22

Kevin Daniels

Hello, Sema. Nice to see you.

00:00:30:24 - 00:00:31:24

Sema Etuknwa

Nice to see you.

00:00:32:01 - 00:01:09:04

Kevin Daniels

So, so in this particular conversation, we're going to be talking about chronic conditions in the workplace, such as musculoskeletal problems, common health problems like anxiety and depression, because these are major problems of and in workplaces, major causes of working age, disability and workplace absence, especially long term sickness absence as well, and early labour market exit for working age adults as well as effectively early retirement, if you like.

00:01:09:06 - 00:01:37:13

Kevin Daniels

And we do know that, you know, early return to work faster, return to work, is better for sustainable recovery and for many conditions like musculoskeletal problems and common mental health problems. Being in work is actually beneficial or being in good work is actually beneficial, should I say, as well. So you are an expert in this field, Sema and you've been working on developing toolkits in this field as well for the past few years.

00:01:37:13 - 00:01:52:08

Kevin Daniels

So we'd like to hear what you have to tell us about your current project. So could I ask you to introduce yourself, please, and who you are, what you do, and the nature of the project and the undertaking.

00:01:52:10 - 00:02:27:17

Sema Etuknwa

Okay. I’m Sema. I work as a research project coordinator at Swiss Re. We're currently working on a project aimed at getting sick workers back to work early via an e-learning web app developed within this project. I think about 2019, about then or so the head of the clinical team within the claims team in Swiss Re recognized a gap around the return to work outcomes that was seen and the costs incurred within the company.

00:02:27:19 - 00:02:58:24

Sema Etuknwa

And that sort of led to them seeking out some experts in the University of Huddersfield in the field of work and health, and particularly Professor Kim Burton and Dr. Serena Bartys. And the conversation was around: ‘What's the current research saying? Is there any product out there to help with addressing this issue?’ That conversation pretty quickly ended up in an application for a UK government funded programme through Innovate UK, which is known as the Knowledge Transfer Partnership KTP.

00:02:59:01 - 00:03:25:15

Sema Etuknwa

So our project initially started as a knowledge transfer partnership between the University of Huddersfield and Swiss Re, which is a reinsurance company here in London. So the aim of that partnership essentially was to effectively translate the evidence around what works in getting people back to work early into a tangible product or a solution that will help reduce sickness absence rates, but also eventually overall cost the company is paying on claims.

00:03:25:17 - 00:03:28:06

Sema Etuknwa

So that's the project in a nutshell.

00:03:28:08 - 00:03:46:14

Kevin Daniels

Okay, Thanks Sema. I think it's worth saying you have a PhD yourself in this area don’t you. You omitted that, you are hiding your light under a bushel of course. Okay. So could you give us some statistics to reflect the scale of the problem, whether the UK, European or Worldwide…?

00:03:46:14 - 00:04:15:00

Sema Etuknwa

Working days lost to sickness absence due to common mental or common health problems is not just a UK thing, it's a global thing. And over the years we've not really seen any remarkable reduction in the statistics. I mean, if we're comparing the most recent results from the Health and Safety executive with last year's result, there was the highest ones, the usual suspects common mental health issues and musculoskeletals.

00:04:15:06 - 00:04:49:22

Sema Etuknwa

I mean, last year we had a case of common mental health issues and musculoskeletal has been about 914,000 and 477,000 cases respectively for mental health and musculoskeletal. This year we've since slight reductions to about 875,000 and 473 for mental health and musculoskeletals respectfully. But we could argue the case that maybe 2002 results could have been influenced by COVID, and we can agree that probably that may have influenced.

00:04:49:22 - 00:05:29:06

Sema Etuknwa

But if we are comparing 2023 results, our statistics against the 2018 where we didn't have COVID then, it's still an increase as at 2018 and new and old cases of common mental health issues were about 600,000 and musculoskeletals were about 500,000. This year we are having common mental health at 875,000 and and 473,000 for musculoskeletal. And so if we're comparing 2018 to 2023 without COVID cases, we can still see we still have an issue.

00:05:29:11 - 00:06:01:04

Sema Etuknwa

There's really not much difference. Working days lost for 2018 was about 30.7 million active against 31.5 million for 2023, which still shows an issue. And so essentially we can see that we have high levels of economically inactive workers due to common health problems. Overall, it just goes to show that we're not getting something right in getting people back to work or remaining at work, which is something that needs to be addressed rigorously.

00:06:01:04 - 00:06:01:21

Sema Etuknwa

Yeah.

00:06:01:23 - 00:06:22:14

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. It's it's a decades old problem. These can be long term conditions. So anything that's related to COVID in terms of mental health and of course, we're all working at home sometimes in very, very cramped conditions, which wouldn't be good for musculoskeletal. These things are can carry on, can't die. So your project is about early return to work and I guess stay at work as well.

00:06:22:14 - 00:06:26:18

Kevin Daniels

And where possible, could you explain to us why that's so beneficial?

00:06:26:18 - 00:06:55:16

Sema Etuknwa

And I mean, a lot of research have been conducted in this space to be honest, particularly the work done by Professor Kim and Waddell in early 2000s. And of course, there's strong evidence to show that the longer one is off sick, the more difficult it is for people to get back. And being back at work actually from that work shows that it's actually an important component of speedy recovery. In the insurance world,

00:06:55:16 - 00:07:20:13

Sema Etuknwa

The difficulties oftentimes is that they don't really have access to workers early on in the sickness absence journey. They only get to have access to them when they're making a claim, oftentimes due to deferred periods. So they get to access people maybe six months down the line, four months down the line. At that point, it becomes very difficult for them to be back at work, but even more costly to go through that process.

00:07:20:15 - 00:07:34:21

Kevin Daniels

And you know … Why is it is it because if people go off sick, the symptoms get worse or they lose confidence or get into bad habits, you know, sort of habitual, habitually not going into work, what's going on there?

00:07:34:23 - 00:08:05:08

Sema Etuknwa

So, I mean, the research just show a wide range of of of things that could prevent people from being back at work. But more importantly, in in the most recent engagement we've had with absent workers, the appears to be a myth or so to say when it comes to the concept of work and health. A lot of people assume that they need to be 100% fit to be back at work and this is one of the myths that we're trying to dispel with our project by encouraging people that you can actually work while recovering.

00:08:05:08 - 00:08:28:07

Sema Etuknwa

And that work is actually an important component of of recovery, but more so there's that also that gap in communication with the workplace when they are off sick. Part of the challenges we established from that conversation was the fact that sometimes the individual is been is they may feel like they need to be back at work, but oftentimes they are waiting for the employer to contact them to ask, Are you ready to be back at work?

00:08:28:07 - 00:08:59:17

Sema Etuknwa

The employer on the other end, particularly if their mental health related issues are waiting for the employee to contact, to say, I'm ready to be back at work? And so nobody takes the initiative to start that proactive conversation around the return to work process. But being away from what for so many time also raises issues with the individual wondering what are they thinking of me about all the you begin to develop, you know, low self esteem around being able to work because you've been away for that long.

00:08:59:19 - 00:09:26:05

Sema Etuknwa

but more so you start thinking this, that sense of guilt in terms of being away, particularly if you're working in a place where, you know that there are staff related issues and there's no one replacing you, and so you feel like you've become a burden to your colleagues and they might hate you. And those are some of the conversations we've had with people feeling like they they've increased the workload for their colleagues and probably it might not be the safe environment for them to be back at work.

00:09:26:05 - 00:09:51:11

Sema Etuknwa

And so there's a lot of things that are happening in the process and in that long wait of being away from work. That's why we encourage people to to keep that communication going even while being at work, because it it will build the confidence, it will it will help the conversation and the relationship between the workers and colleagues, but more so it will facilitate that return to work process when the time is due.

00:09:51:15 - 00:10:21:13

Sema Etuknwa

The gap in the conversation between the work and the employer in most cases, there's a lot of assumption running. I mean, people just, the worker doesn't feel they have the agency to make that first step and act or this accommodation or solution or they don't feel they have the permission to do that. But at the same time, the the line managers on this other end sometimes may be empathetic and want to help, but oftentimes they just don't have the right tools to support.

00:10:21:13 - 00:10:31:10

Sema Etuknwa

And so on both ends. There's so many things lacking and so many things that have been drawn on the table that we try to resolve with our project.

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:34:01

Kevin Daniels

I mean, I guess stigma’s an issue as well.

00:10:34:03 - 00:10:34:16

Sema Etuknwa

Yeah.

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:40:14

Kevin Daniels

Especially around mental health and disclosure, but actually being able to disclose.

00:10:40:16 - 00:10:41:09

Sema Etuknwa

Exactly.

00:10:41:14 - 00:11:03:03

Kevin Daniels

a condition sort of opens up the possibilities of, you know, sort of reasonable adjustments and accommodations. But it's interesting that you're saying there, you know, there's this kind of gap in communication because, you know, we talk from the employer side and often HR professionals in particular might feel quite uncomfortable dealing with health. They want to kind of like push it over to occupational health

00:11:03:03 - 00:11:03:10

Sema Etuknwa

Or.

00:11:03:13 - 00:11:11:18

Kevin Daniels

Private care or something like that. But, you know, it is does have to be this kind of sometimes three way conversations 

00:11:11:18 - 00:11:12:13

Sema Etuknwa

Basically.

00:11:12:18 - 00:11:41:01

Kevin Daniels

Health, HR and the employee as well and I guess some employers feel more confident doing this and maybe more experienced in doing it as well which means you get an uneven unevenness between employers as well. What are the barriers to early returns? So you so you kind of talked about that. Yeah. From the employee side it's it's could be a lack of agency from the employer side.

00:11:41:01 - 00:11:46:12

Kevin Daniels

It might be a lack of comfort. What are the big things that needs to be need to be addressed.

00:11:46:16 - 00:12:15:09

Sema Etuknwa

For the individual themselves? We've come to realize that a wide range of factors play into the barriers which could be very biopsychosocial or very personal. We've come to see, particularly with mental health issues, you already raised the issue around stigma and it's not normalized and you're talking about mental health issues. It's not very normalized in the workplace.

00:12:15:09 - 00:12:43:23

Sema Etuknwa

And so there's not this it's not people are not comfortable sharing their mental health experiences or sharing their challenges around mental health, because the part of the conversation we've had with people is the fact that they begin to see them as being flaky and and might not be able to do the job anymore. And so they are not comfortable to share the extent of their condition at the point they are back or even when they're off sick.

00:12:43:23 - 00:13:12:12

Sema Etuknwa

And so coming back at work, it becomes very difficult to have that conversation around what I can do and what I cannot do, what I can share, what I cannot share. And so that becomes a barrier for them in terms of getting the right help and support. But another thing that we we we also realize in terms of barriers to being back at work and oftentimes then I think part of the things we also realize where and where there are animosities or issues between the worker and the employer.

00:13:12:12 - 00:13:37:06

Sema Etuknwa

Oftentimes they come back to a workplace where the line manager could have been the issue. And so being back at work for your return to work process to be managed by the same manager will may have caused your issue becomes very problematic and very counterproductive in the sense that you're not really addressing the the root cause of the issue because the root cause is actually the one trying to help you get back to work.

00:13:37:06 - 00:14:01:04

Sema Etuknwa

So that becomes very problematic. But another thing we also found out is that lack of communication, while they are off sick, is also a barrier because at the time they start to have the conversation about return to work, there's been a lag in communication and there's a lot of uncertainties and they have all of these worries about being back at work, seeing it.

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:34:00

Sema Etuknwa

As a daunting experience and and worrying about if they'll be able to get back to work, worrying about if the procedures and processes have changed. But they can’t really have that conversation because there's been a lack of communication away from for so long and so trying to transition back to work and have that conversation makes it even more difficult and and scary for them, which which ultimately can impact the level of support they get, but more so the level of communication they get to engage in while being back at work.

00:14:34:00 - 00:15:01:15

Sema Etuknwa

So that in itself is another problem. But another thing it again is, is the health condition themselves. I think part of what we we establish from interviews with people is the fact that sometimes a communication or return to work process seems very generic and very workplace policy. Tick box, tick box, tick box. And the main issues are not really addressed in terms of where are you in your recovery, what can you do at the point of return to work?

00:15:01:15 - 00:15:21:11

Sema Etuknwa

What do you need to help you be back at work? And so those conversations are often not really fully or extensively covered. And so oftentimes people agree to be back at work and the firm provide it with some level of accommodation to help them, but oftentimes they are not checked in on to see are those accommodations still working?

00:15:21:11 - 00:15:48:22

Sema Etuknwa

Do you need more support? And the next thing you know, there's a relapse and a recurrent sickness absence. So a lot of factors play into it. And and also I had alluded to the issue of guilt as well, feeling guilt over being away, being sick and and mounting more workload on your colleagues also impacts their thinking,

00:15:48:22 - 00:16:16:15

Sema Etuknwa

their readiness to be back at work because there's still that fear to think that you've caused this much workload for your colleagues and they might hate you. And so the thought of being back in that environment might be scary in that sense. So that in itself is another barrier, but more importantly, the support you get as well, particularly from the key people you think should be supportive in terms of your line managers or the management of the workplace.

00:16:16:15 - 00:16:55:23

Sema Etuknwa

If you're being in a workplace that is does not foster a supportive environment or a supportive workplace, it makes it even more difficult for the individual to thrive in that environment or return to work in and and remain at work. And I think part of the things we also realize is the fact that because there's a generic approach to addressing return to work and ticking boxes and and signing a paper and saying, okay, that's it we've finished a return to work process, it's difficult to tailor the process to specific people's needs, taking account of the different conditions in varying conditions and their varying needs.

00:16:56:00 - 00:17:18:12

Sema Etuknwa

And that's what we try to address with this project, because we we we are cognizant of the fact that if we expect employers to have like tailored approaches to helping specific people with different conditions and different needs, it might be near impossible, given the wide spectrum of conditions we have. And so what we try to do with a project is actually make put the individual in the driver's seat.

00:17:18:12 - 00:17:30:13

Sema Etuknwa

And that way the individual having that conversation and and and and establishing what the needs are makes it more tailored to the individual, then expecting the workplace to drive that tailoring approach.

00:17:30:15 - 00:17:56:07

Kevin Daniels

I was going to ask you about that, each case is different and yeah it's it seems from what you're telling me, some sometimes employers don't even differentiate between conditions, but they're not seeing the whole person. Yeah, Just seeing some generic illness or something like that or some generic condition. So, so not even differentiating between sort of different conditions.

00:17:56:10 - 00:18:25:19

Kevin Daniels

But I just wanted to ask you, there’s two things really about musculoskeletal and mental health problems in particular is the visibility. You can’t see the symptoms. Yeah, from outside the person. Yeah. And also, you know, symptoms fluctuate. So, you know, as you know, they are often talked about, I kind of have in minor back problem and most of the time it's fine, but sometimes it will be awful.

00:18:25:21 - 00:18:52:04

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. So, you know, that kind of situation can be can be difficult. And of course, you know, I have an ergonomic chair that's always there. Both other accommodations might not always be needed or might only be needed at specific times and / or predictable times. So. Exactly. So so so how would an employer go around dealing with these kind of issues around visibility and fluctuation in symptoms.

00:18:52:06 - 00:19:14:00

Sema Etuknwa

I think that's what we that's why communication is really important. And part of what we found out with this project is that sometimes people go back to work, agreed accommodations are agreed and they are back at work doing the work, but it ends there. There's no follow up checks on, did what we agree, is it working?

00:19:14:02 - 00:19:37:12

Sema Etuknwa

Do we need for the support or is there anything we can help you for? And that's the angle of sustainability of the return that we really try to address. Because successfully returning to work is one thing, but sustaining that return is the next thing, and that's the level of the follow up checks that that that at that and wants to that return to work process.

00:19:37:14 - 00:20:25:23

Sema Etuknwa

And so we find that while people return, things change along the way. Maybe agreed accommodations may not really be working out and maybe they need more support a more different a different type of approach to how they are working and if effective compensation is is is fostered within that process, within the line managers or whoever is in charge of of making this accommodations possible, then it it helps to prevent any relapse or or prevent any recurrence and return absence from what we had a couple of participant who had a series of setbacks after return to work and it just merely had to do with things around agreed accommodation, not working and them not

00:20:25:23 - 00:20:54:12

Sema Etuknwa

being able to have that conversation around having more support or having more adjustment around maybe how they're working or taking breaks or or requiring different things to aid their work better. And so rather than have that conversation, they just went off sick. And so if we can foster effective renegotiation, follow up check ins and having that conversations with individual, I think we would prevent a lot of relapse.

00:20:54:12 - 00:20:58:20

Sema Etuknwa

We get to see and recurrent sickness absence we get to see.

00:20:58:22 - 00:21:21:02

Kevin Daniels

Thank you. Just one more question around barriers, but really on one of the things I always remember from from your earlier research is this idea of alignment that you might have the best line manager in the world, but absolutely awful HR return process or vice versa, or senior managers saying one thing.

00:21:21:04 - 00:21:21:18

Sema Etuknwa

Exactly.

00:21:21:18 - 00:21:28:23

Kevin Daniels

Line managers are saying something else. Is that is that something that's coming up in this project as well? This alignment being an issue?

00:21:29:00 - 00:21:51:08

Sema Etuknwa

Yes, absolutely. I think one of the major things with which we've proved, as shown within this project is the importance of that communication with all of the key return to work stakeholders and the importance of having that alignment in terms of of of roles. And what more so what's agreed and and addressing things in a timely fashion.

00:21:51:08 - 00:22:25:20

Sema Etuknwa

I'm having to, like you said, line managers, they have a different role. HR, they have a different role. But if there's some level of of alignment in terms of agreeing what's best for the individual and come into their agreement in in a way that works for the individual, that makes it a lot easier rather than having a situation whereby the goals of the HR is just to get people back to work and the line manager on this other end may have a role to to help the individual transition back to work, but doesn't necessarily have the right tools and it's not provided.

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:46:23

Sema Etuknwa

Take for example, someone gets back to work, has lower back issues. They need an ergonomic chair, the line manager puts in for a request for an ergonomic chair, and that never comes through either form or approval from senior management. And so there's that gap in in, in the roles in terms of what the line manager can do and what they cannot do.

00:22:46:23 - 00:23:04:09

Sema Etuknwa

They, they, they, they have a certain level of power in terms of helping you with under work or when it comes to the necessary things you might need, which may require higher authority in terms of approval, it makes it even more difficult to actually meet the needs of the individual and satisfy them and get them back to work in a way that will work for them.

00:23:04:14 - 00:23:26:19

Sema Etuknwa

And so there's that importance of of alignment across the the the power stream from the line managers to the HR to the senior management. And where that is missing in any point, it doesn't really pull through in terms of provisions of the right accommodations or resources that the individual might need to remain at work.

00:23:26:21 - 00:23:47:08

Kevin Daniels

So it's not just a HR technical thing then, is a it's it's it's a wider organizational thing. Yeah. So bring you back to the this this project and this toolkit you're developing. So you talked a lot about communication. Can you could you tell us a little bit more specifically about how the how that how that becomes actionable?

00:23:47:08 - 00:24:09:05

Sema Etuknwa

So essentially what happens is because we had already established that there's that gap in communication between the Worker, the employer, and the health care professionals. I think because we we interviewed a wide range of people in a project alongside GP's, but of the conversations we had with GP's was oftentimes they just deal with individuals on a clinical basis.

00:24:09:05 - 00:24:31:23

Sema Etuknwa

They don't know what individuals do for the job and so they can't really comment on on the work aspect. And so there's a gap in communication around what the individual does. The GP is just a just willing to to sign them off based on the clinical issue and wouldn't know background around what they do for work at this other end.

00:24:31:23 - 00:24:57:19

Sema Etuknwa

The workplace, of course, the gap in communication around when or when not to communicate with the individual while the individual is still working. And so with this project we thought that putting the individual then in the driver's seat of actually pulling the key return to work stakeholders to the table would be a more effective way of drawing everyone together and establishing what the needs are and going about and helping the individual back at work.

00:24:57:21 - 00:25:24:05

Sema Etuknwa

And so what our app does it it gives the individual the opportunity. It provides them with a lot of resources, information and more. So they get to establish contact with all of the return to work stakeholders, their line managers, the HR, the health care providers, saying i'm using this this tool to build a return to action plan.

00:25:24:09 - 00:25:42:18

Sema Etuknwa

And when i'm done with it, we can have a conversation to see if it works and then agree. And so what essentially they get to do is produce an ultimate output, which is a return to work action plan. And within that action plan, they get to establish what their obstacles to return to work are and and propose solutions that will help them.

00:25:42:24 - 00:26:22:10

Sema Etuknwa

And then and it's time based that it has to be very actionable. And so they get to put a time against it in terms of when that should be completed. And it's that action plan that they get to share with the line managers, their health care professionals. HR. And then agree the plan to be back at work. And so it aids that conversation so that way whatever conversations they have with their health care professionals and the health care professionals by that action plan can see the restrictions they would have at work and that way we would be able to to recommend that the best way for them and guide them in that return to

00:26:22:10 - 00:26:41:20

Sema Etuknwa

work process. But at the same time, it also exposes the line manager to what they really need to be back at work, because at this point the workplace is all about productivity and getting back to work and doing what you're supposed to do. And so for them, the best way to help them is providing them with what they actually need to be back at work.

00:26:41:20 - 00:27:07:12

Sema Etuknwa

And so essentially that's what the action plan helps. And it's it's just a conversation opener. And because we what we try to stress within the the tool is the fact that the plan you develop is not cast in stone. It's just an an opportunity to open that conversation because there are some things that maybe policy might not allow within the workplace in terms of  what you are asking for.

00:27:07:16 - 00:27:27:02

Sema Etuknwa

And so it just gives you the opportunity to to negotiate and have that conversation and agree alternatives where the solutions you've suggested might not be feasible in the workplace. Like you said in the beginning, good work is good for health and it helps to negotiate good work for them. In that sense.

00:27:27:04 - 00:27:53:20

Kevin Daniels

What I like about that is the kind of evaluation evidence of continuous improvement built into the process by having these conversations to say what's working, what isn't, what can we change exactly? And presumably within the actual plan is also potentially for withdrawal of support of accommodations if no longer needed. Exactly. That’s great any other major parts of the toolkit yet we kind of missed in that conversation that.?

00:27:53:22 - 00:28:18:16

Sema Etuknwa

Yeah, I think some of the parts we already touched, but I think we spent a lot of time synthesizing the feedback and and trying to translate the data into themes for the return to work product. And so we have tried to include components of the evidence within the journey, things like the effectiveness of return to work plans, which they get to produce.

00:28:18:22 - 00:28:38:06

Sema Etuknwa

Things like the importance of collaborating with key return to work stakeholders, which is using that plan to engage the different stakeholders and the things around the importance of follow up checks after return to work, which they get to do. After return to work, they get the opportunity to remind us to review the plan to see is it working or is it not working?

00:28:38:11 - 00:29:08:07

Sema Etuknwa

What more? So we we have engagement aspects where the evidence tells us that if we include some gamification elements within the journey, that it will improve engagement and sustain people using it remarkably. And so we've compensated by by way of designing the the way we have designed the journey. It's very visually appealing. And with the characters we've introduced throughout the journey to guide them and give them information.

00:29:08:12 - 00:29:33:05

Sema Etuknwa

We've tried to make it very engaging, very acceptable, very visually appealing, but also very relatable with the introduction of video testimonials of people with real life situations like them. Because part of the the feedback we got, they wanted to see someone like themselves on the screen and telling them about the experiences and how they overcame them.

00:29:33:08 - 00:30:00:24

Sema Etuknwa

And so we have video testimonials of real life people as well that they can relate to. And so alongside trying to to engage them and get them to complete certain activities and get back to work, we also try to empower them, which is different from anything out there, because we had to take the empowering the Worker approach because everybody we spoke to didn’t feel they had the agency to to do that themselves.

00:30:00:24 - 00:30:08:24

Sema Etuknwa

And so empowering them in that way for them is more motivating and keeps them going on the journey.

00:30:09:00 - 00:30:31:19

Kevin Daniels

It kind of reminds me of this empowerment of… a very long time ago. I had this personal tutee at a university I used to work at. I've been diagnosed with depression and my counselor has told me, you are going to do this, you will see me once a week, you're going to check on my work and I work 9 to 5.

00:30:31:23 - 00:30:51:10

Kevin Daniels

And he just just basically told me what he was going to do. And I was completely and you you just had that empowerment because he'd been told by a health care professional, Yeah, well, this is what you do. And you know, and he made a full recovery and you know, a few years later I actually saw him at a rugby ground and, you know, got a successful career and all this sort of stuff.

00:30:51:10 - 00:31:12:12

Kevin Daniels

And we had a nice chat and it just I think that illustrates this idea. If you do think you have you know, you have the confidence to ask for the accommodation. Yes. Yes. I'm very confident to have those conversations. It can make such a huge difference to you go about your own recovery journey. So so that that's great.

00:31:12:12 - 00:31:27:20

Kevin Daniels

Now, I have seen the trailer for the toolkit, so there's lots of animations, dynamic moving parts as well as testimonials as well. So that sounds great. So I suppose that the last question for me is what next?

00:31:28:00 - 00:32:00:11

Sema Etuknwa

So we took a very iterative nature in the way we built the tool from the idea to prototype to final product. And while gathering this, the feedback in each of the phases, we've essentially extensively tried and tested the tool, but we’re at the stage, where we know that what we have is really good and we're just about to start our first pilot with real life cases and hoping to launch and go to market mid-year after the pilot.

00:32:00:11 - 00:32:24:12

Sema Etuknwa

So looking forward, that will be interesting work to to see the guide work in in real time and and also feed off from the data we collect and see how the engagement works in terms of how they use the guide, but also how the most effective ways we can deploy it, not necessarily just from the insurance angle.

00:32:24:14 - 00:32:29:17

Kevin Daniels

Okay, fantastic. And do you have a date for the launch?

00:32:29:19 - 00:32:31:17

Sema Etuknwa

We're looking at the second half of this year.

00:32:31:18 - 00:32:34:06

Kevin Daniels

So. Okay. So some time after June.

00:32:34:08 - 00:32:35:00

Sema Etuknwa

Yeah.

00:32:35:02 - 00:32:41:01

Kevin Daniels

Fantastic. We'll look out for that. Thank you so much. Always great to speak to you.

00:32:41:03 - 00:32:42:07

Sema Etuknwa

Thank you for having me.

00:32:42:07 - 00:32:46:24

Kevin Daniels

Brilliant.  It's been fantastic. Thank you.

00:32:47:01 - 00:32:57:15

Helen Fitzhugh

Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org  We look forward to seeing you next time.