The importance of psychological flexibility

In this edition of the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast, Helen Fitzhugh speaks with Rachael Skews, Chartered Psychologist, coach and founder of Cognus Consulting on the topic of psychological flexibility at work and its relationship with wellbeing and performance. 

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:17

Helen Fitzhugh

Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org.

00:00:27:19 - 00:00:52:09

Helen Fitzhugh

Hi, I'm Dr Helen Fitzhugh of the workplace wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia. In today's podcast, I'm speaking with Rachael Skews, Chartered Psychologist, coach and founder of Cognus Consulting, about evidence that links the idea of psychological flexibility to improved wellbeing and performance at work. We'll explain fully what psychological flexibility actually means in a moment. But first, Rachael, welcome.

00:00:52:11 - 00:01:02:04

Helen Fitzhugh

It's really lovely to have you here on the podcast. Thank you for coming. Could you tell us a little bit about your career journey and your professional interest in workplace wellbeing?

00:01:02:06 - 00:01:27:20

Rachael Skews

So my career journey has probably been a little bit more convoluted than some people's. So I started, I started my career in an employee assistance programme. So I was a, but kind of, on the business side and employee assistance programmes. And then I moved into career coaching. Outplacement. and then I moved into talent management.

00:01:27:20 - 00:01:59:17

Rachael Skews

So I actually had a career in management consulting before, and I trained as a psychologist. My first degree was in philosophy, so it was very interesting and it was wonderful. And I do use quite a lot of it as a researcher. But in terms of the world of work, it was a little bit less applied and so while I was, working as a management consultant and I was really interested, especially when I moved into outplacement and got involved in coaching and leadership coaching.

00:01:59:19 - 00:02:25:14

Rachael Skews

Then I decided I was going to retrain as a psychologist. And so I did my, degree with the Open University. And then left, the world of work to do my masters in occupational psychology, which I did at Goldsmiths. So I did that full time. So that was when I really started at kind of seeing the way that wellbeing and stress and, you know, those kinds of things were affecting people at work.

00:02:25:15 - 00:02:46:09

Rachael Skews

I mean, particularly through the employee assistance programmes that I was managing and through the work that was being done when clients came into the outplacement service who'd been made redundant, and those of us who've been made redundant before know that that's quite a challenging experience. It really affects our confidence. It really affects our identity, is who we are.

00:02:46:11 - 00:03:22:08

Rachael Skews

So, you know, the background that I had was in some quite challenging experiences that people have in relation to their work and the effects that it can have on them. So when I started to study occupational psychology and subsequently started doing my research in my thesis, you know, the area of work I found really interesting, partly because I really felt like if organizations can harness environments and work kind of design, which really, positively impacts people's performance at work.

00:03:22:08 - 00:03:48:24

Rachael Skews

So creating an environment where they can perform well, but you're not doing that at the cost of their wellbeing, then that's a much more powerful change to make in the organization. And so I've always been interested in that intersect, because for me, I think that's quite a, you know, if you're going to make an investment into something in a business and you're going to get those two really powerful outcomes, then that's money well spent, in my opinion.

00:03:49:01 - 00:03:58:08

Rachael Skews

I did my PhD, and then I went into health tech for a little while, which I'll probably, you know, talk a little bit about. And now in independent practice. So lovely.

00:03:58:10 - 00:04:21:03

Helen Fitzhugh

Well, thank you for bringing that experience to the podcast. There's a good range of stuff to talk about, but I did say we would be looking specifically at psychological flexibility. So I was wondering if you could explain the idea of psychological flexibility and why our listeners should be interested in it if they want to improve wellbeing in businesses and other organizations?

00:04:21:05 - 00:04:47:23

Rachael Skews

Yeah. So as I said, this intersect between people being able to perform better but also having better wellbeing, psychological flexibility is where I've done most of my research, and it is one of the psychological things that we can do that has a very direct impact on both of them. And I find that really interesting. So let me say a little bit what psychological flexibility is.

00:04:48:00 - 00:05:21:22

Rachael Skews

So it's often defined as our ability to do the things that matter in any given context, even when that's difficult or challenging. So if you think about a work challenge that you are not looking forward to, could be public speaking. Some people find that very stressful. it could be giving a presentation around something, you know, project that you feel is really important, you know, and that actually makes you feel like you're having an impact in some way, shape or form.

00:05:21:24 - 00:05:48:07

Rachael Skews

But you may be feeling quite nervous about giving that. So psychological flexibility is increasing people's ability to step into those moments. they are less distracted by, you know, the voices that people have not heard, the narrative that they might have, you know, those feelings about their will going horribly, horribly wrong. So we kind of, you know, allow them space to really focus on what matters.

00:05:48:12 - 00:06:08:08

Rachael Skews

So it's the psychological construct. It's something which people can develop. It's almost like a skill. And I would describe that skill as flexibility. So it's flexibility in the way that you behave in the way that you think, in the way that you feel, the emotions that you experience. So it's allowing you to have a greater range of those things.

00:06:08:10 - 00:06:30:13

Rachael Skews

And that is very much in the service of allowing you to make a better choice in any given context. So within the workplace, you know, you've got to give that presentation. If that presentation is important and it matters, can you allow those voices to be there, but not allow them to distract you and really focus on giving the best performance that you can in that presentation?

00:06:31:04 - 00:06:54:07

Helen Fitzhugh

Great. Thank you. I suppose on this podcast we often talk about things that organizations can do rather than say the individuals. We obviously see that the two have a complete interplay. So I was just wondering with regard to psychological flexibility, how does the balance between kind of personal responsibility and organizational support play out?

00:06:54:09 - 00:07:22:16

Rachael Skews

So I mean, organizations, there are things that they would be able to do at strategic level, which would help and support individuals to develop this. So for example, managers understanding it is helpful. So if you are able to and one of the things that I'm quite a strong advocate for is helping managers to have perhaps a little bit of a better understanding of the behavioural science relating to performance.

00:07:22:18 - 00:07:51:03

Rachael Skews

So we sort of talk about it as though it's something static, you know, high performance, low performance. We talk about it as something which, is linear. You know, that if somebody is a high performer, they're probably always going to be high performance. We we know that that's not true. You know, from people's own lived experience, from their experience of being a manager, from the data that we have from organizations, all of it suggests that actually performance is a non-linear thing.

00:07:51:05 - 00:08:20:14

Rachael Skews

you know, we have a good days. We have our bad days. You know, we have the distractions that might be going on. We have things that happen. We have difficult relationships. We have difficult managerial relationships as well. And so I think understanding that each of these different factors can have an impact on our performance. So for me, being able to get that sustained high performance has an element of what I would refer to as like self-care.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:53:13

Rachael Skews

You know, being able to manage yourself. So thinking about it from a, similar parallel to something like sports performance, you know, if you're not getting that rest and recovery after training, you're not performing as well in your training session. And I think it's the same in business. I think if you are just working all hours, then it actually probably reduces your impact when you're working because you just you're a human being and you're going to be tired and you're going to be exhausted if we don't feed and rest and recover.

00:08:53:15 - 00:09:16:18

Rachael Skews

one of the things that I was working on at, when I was at headspace was looking at heart rate variability as a tool for managers to be able to, you know, look at their own performance and think about, am I going to be the best leader if I'm not rested or recovered? And using HRP as like a biometric feedback so they can see the moments that they might need that rest and recovery.

00:09:16:20 - 00:09:47:23

Rachael Skews

So I think from an organizational perspective, being able to internalize some of that and notice when you are creating expectations of individuals or teams and the managers who are leading those teams. So, you know, what is the kind of top down expectation is it that individuals will have an opportunity to rest and recover? Or are you treating people as though performance is linear because we know it isn't likely to get out?

00:09:47:24 - 00:10:16:06

Rachael Skews

You're likely to get, perhaps higher turnover if you're not creating environments that are conducive to people's high performance. So I think there is opportunity to bring that into the the way that organizations operate, to think about if we want to be kind of, open to sustained high performance. Yeah. What might we need to change around how we talking about it?

00:10:16:08 - 00:10:37:07

Rachael Skews

I think sometimes managers can kind of, perhaps be a bit too literal about this, you know, like, are you taking your holiday? But I wonder if managers who are psychologically flexible themselves are able to have better conversations with employees about their own kind of wellbeing?

00:10:37:09 - 00:11:02:20

Helen Fitzhugh

Okay, lovely. So we talked about the start, you'd had this, this varied career, but I want to take you back specifically at the moment to your PhD research. On this podcast, we always think about, you know, research into practice. So I want to ask you what you found that might be of interest to, say, HR partners or managers in how they approach workplace wellbeing.

00:11:02:22 - 00:11:31:18

Rachael Skews

So my research I was looking at coaching, leaders, looking specifically at using acceptance and commitment coaching. So that is a form of coaching that directly targets people's psychological flexibility and tries to improve people's psychological flexibility, which is what we saw in the study. And then the all these nice knock on effects to people's self-efficacy, their wellbeing, their performance, you know, the goal directed thinking.

00:11:31:18 - 00:11:54:08

Rachael Skews

So there's a whole range of other outcomes that we were looking at. So what we saw is that you know, the kinds of things that we were doing in the coaching that made a difference. And I think some of this is going to really make sense to HR folks who, again, you know, building things for managers, for leaders, who are also used to building things that improve people's wellbeing.

00:11:54:08 - 00:12:19:02

Rachael Skews

So I'm hoping that this is going to make nice links for, for people who listen to this. So one of the things that, is really important is to connect with people's values. And I, I hear so many people working with values in the workplace. I think it's a really, really good exercise because it harnesses so much. So when I talk about values, what I'm talking about is the things that bring people meaning and purpose.

00:12:19:04 - 00:12:56:10

Rachael Skews

So often I'll sort of say, you know, why is it that you're here? Why is it that you are, you know, I say to you how and why is it that you are running the podcast, you know, what is it that's really kind of driving you? And then maybe a number of different things that might be about connecting with people that might be shared, being really good knowledge and practice that will hopefully have an impact in organizations, you know, that kind of thing, understanding and helping, and connecting with people's values in the workplace is a wonderful one, because it's going to give you that dual of kind of activating better performance.

00:12:56:12 - 00:13:13:03

Rachael Skews

People are going to be really kind of, you know, focused in on what it is that they want to achieve. You know, why is it that you do this work rather than something else? Why is it that you're at this organization rather than somewhere else, you know, what is it about this job? This is really working for you?

00:13:13:05 - 00:13:36:15

Rachael Skews

And then also connecting with those things we know kind of enhances people's well-being as well. That sense of purpose in and of itself has a beneficial impact on us as humans. And, again, another nice piece of research that's being done with the general population that shows that that connecting with that sense of purpose is kind of like a generally good thing for us as humans.

00:13:36:17 - 00:13:38:01

Rachael Skews

We spend a lot of time at work.

00:13:38:05 - 00:13:55:22

Helen Fitzhugh

I just wonder if we could just take a moment to highlight what might be the difference between acceptance and commitment coaching and any other coaching that people might have encountered, because people might not be sure what that is, or you know, if they could get hold of it. How common is it? For instance, how many people do it?

00:13:55:24 - 00:14:23:07

Rachael Skews

Increasingly common, there is increasing interest in it, which I'm delighted about. So what makes it different is that usually when you're doing acceptance and commitment coaching, you're targeting psychological flexibility directly and you're doing that through a few different processes. So the first process is connecting people with their values. So getting them motivated, getting them kind of connected with that meaning and purpose.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:46:09

Rachael Skews

And then you're building the goals around that which is called committed action. So if you have people, that you're working with, you know, like people's goals and things like that, that they might build in an organization or performance feedback system that might not be directly related to their values. And actually values are slightly different to strengths as well.

00:14:46:09 - 00:15:12:22

Rachael Skews

So I think more organizations are doing this in relation to strengths. But strengths may also align with people's values. The VIA strengths test for example, you know, that was originally called Values in action. But then they realized it was a bit broader than that. So it could be related to people's strengths. And, you know, thinking about the tasks and the actions that they might be undertaking within the organization.

00:15:12:24 - 00:15:38:11

Rachael Skews

This is something different where we're that we're not just thinking about what you're good at, what you enjoy. We're also thinking about what gives you that sense of vitality and purpose, being able to craft people's jobs around that as much as possible is going to benefit organizationally. Now, that's not always going to be possible. There are always going to be limitations, but where you can that might be a helpful thing to consider at the organizational level.

00:15:38:13 - 00:16:07:13

Rachael Skews

Other things that you would do in acceptance and commitment coaching that you might not do in other forms of coaching would be working psychologically with barriers. We do that through firstly getting very mindfully present. So lots of lots of coaching now involves mindfulness which is great. So that bit other coaches might be doing. But we also really work with and I think this is so important.

00:16:07:15 - 00:16:37:24

Rachael Skews

thinking about how people think about themselves. So starting to think about, you know, what stories might somebody be telling themselves about themselves. What kind of narratives do we carry around? What kind of beliefs do we carry around? And so much of that is wrapped up in what we do in our work. you know, and that can actually be it can be a little bit on to the unhealthy level and especially where you see people, maybe people who work in the NHS, for example, is a really classic example.

00:16:38:01 - 00:16:58:21

Rachael Skews

People may see their role as a caregiver or health practitioner, and that is really integral to who they are, may actually make them more difficult for them to step away and have that rest and recovery, because the reason they are doing that work, the kind of person that they are, means they wouldn't be able to step away if they can help.

00:16:58:23 - 00:17:25:15

Rachael Skews

And so I think that's a possible contributing factor to why you get really high burnout in some of those types of, you know, work contexts. No one reason but, you know, it's a contributing factor. So we would do a lot of work just to help people notice, see, mindful awareness, which allows that noticing being able to notice those thoughts and feelings and know what's coming up to me, how am I relating to myself?

00:17:25:17 - 00:17:50:20

Rachael Skews

And so that process as a whole is, is sort of described as diffusion. Diffusion. That's the thoughts and feelings that we often experience. It's almost like they're happening to us and we don't see them as separate to to us, to ourselves. And diffusion is when you are helping people to learn that skill. It's like, you know, what is it that you're telling yourself?

00:17:50:22 - 00:18:20:12

Rachael Skews

Or what is it that's going on for you? And then the acceptance, which is very unique to acceptance and commitment coaching, in my experience, is conscious. So making space for those thoughts, to see, saying to know what you've had, something in your lived experience, something about you as a person, something that's important to you that is related to that thought or feeling that often it's one that we want to get rid of.

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:44:16

Rachael Skews

We tend to do the coaching work on the stuff that's not working for people. Yeah. And so it's those bits where they're getting stuck that I tend to spend my time. So people might have I don't know really. They might feel really angry about stuff that's going on at work. And they that might be it might mean they relate to people in a slightly different way to how they want to.

00:18:44:16 - 00:19:05:17

Rachael Skews

So they might let that anger seep out a little bit in some of their relationships. Or it might mean that they send, you know, a terse email that's actually not the most helpful way of responding to something, you know, but quite often we get angry about things that we care about, you know, get angry about stuff that we don't care about.

00:19:05:19 - 00:19:32:02

Rachael Skews

So there is an element of that where it's, you know, what can we do organizationally that will help on that level? You know, yes, I would say, helping managers to be more psychologically flexible has that nice sort of knock on effect. But I think also it's important for organizations to create psychologically safe spaces. Yeah. People can talk about things, talk about what's important to them.

00:19:32:04 - 00:19:43:20

Rachael Skews

You know, to to have those to be able to voice some of that stuff they might be carrying around and make space for it and do that. And then compassion that way. Yeah.

00:19:43:22 - 00:20:01:16

Helen Fitzhugh

Great. My understanding is that the acceptance and commitment therapy and coaching approaches have a lot of evidence behind them now, don't they? because we're all about the evidence here on the podcast. So people will probably want to know that there's quite a lot out there. They can they could read about this if they were, if they were interested.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:32:12

Rachael Skews

Yes. And as a community, if people are interested, I would, I would direct them to a few resources that, for example, the Association for Contextual Behavioural Science, because there's a community of researchers and practitioners, people are very open access. and that's a really nice value within the community. So, if people are interested in the evidence base with a particular population or a particular application, then usually it's easy to access that research.

00:20:32:14 - 00:20:46:06

Helen Fitzhugh

Right. Do you have any more kind of real life examples of how evidence based activities like these can improve psychology or flexibility, and then impact on performance and adaptability at work?

00:20:46:08 - 00:21:09:07

Rachael Skews

Yeah, though, as there's quite a lot of studies that have been done using acceptance and commitment training that's designed to be improving people's wellbeing at work as opposed to their performance. My work in coaching was a little bit more performance orientated, and we were sort of hoping that the wellbeing improvements would come along, to which of course they did, which was wonderful.

00:21:09:09 - 00:21:42:14

Rachael Skews

But I think what all of these different interventions, what they're able to do is create spaces and environments that are safe, and that allow people time to talk about stuff and explore things, and that will make that. It allows them to make better decisions. So in the workplace, when we when we're really kind of digging into what's the impact and the and really what's the contexts in which this can be helpful is kind of where I'm going with this.

00:21:42:16 - 00:22:04:12

Rachael Skews

Any space where making a better decision is going to be helpful is going to be enhanced by better psychological flexibility. and I would kind of bring in psychological safety as a, as a hygiene factor, like you can kind of do needs like we say that so flippantly, that's quite hard for organizations to do, to be honest. It's super easy for people.

00:22:04:14 - 00:22:29:17

Rachael Skews

Going back to your question around, you know, tangible examples, real life examples. So I think when you've got misaligned teams being able to, create those spaces. So the first thing people might do some work individually really think about what is it that matters to me? Well, what am I doing that's moving me towards that, but also what's moving away from that?

00:22:29:19 - 00:22:55:24

Rachael Skews

So we use this idea of, you know, moving towards and moving away that's used so consistently in acceptance and commitment, informed practices like coaching or training or even therapy. So being able to really get people thinking about, you know, what is it. So this this email lands, I feel really angry about it. What is going to help me make, you know, what's what's the right thing to do?

00:22:56:01 - 00:23:20:05

Rachael Skews

If I send an angry response back, that's going to make me feel better. Probably like maybe for a minute. But is it going to make me feel better long term? Probably not. So it's thinking about longer term puts the enduring, better decision to make. What's the best thing to do? I'm making the decision based on, you know, what matters, what really matters to me?

00:23:20:05 - 00:23:43:07

Rachael Skews

How do I want to show up at work? What kind of person do I want to be? So you can do all of that individually, but then you can also get groups together and teams, and you can work together to sort of share that. So when people have done that exploration individually, you can then get them in a group and get them thinking about as a group, as a, as a team, you know, a weight pulling in the same direction.

00:23:43:09 - 00:24:05:14

Rachael Skews

you know, we might have some assumptions around what we're doing or we might not realize the impact of some of our individual behaviour on our performance as a team. So you can then start to think about and all the psychological flexibility is, is that ability to notice and that willingness to do things that are moving you in the right direction, even if they're quite hard.

00:24:05:16 - 00:24:29:11

Rachael Skews

And that's what you're cultivating within the group as well. It does scale up to the organizational level. So, you know, we're sort of, within the community of practice thinking about what does that look like at an organizational level or the other things that businesses and organizations can do that will help cultivate that right across the organization?

00:24:29:13 - 00:24:37:06

Helen Fitzhugh

And we touched upon in there somewhere, challenges what might be the challenges of trying to do this all?

00:24:37:08 - 00:25:10:18

Rachael Skews

I think if you don't have emotionally safe spaces for people, they're not going to be willing to open up in front of others. Most of the coaching work that I do is 1 to 1, and so I can help people to, to do that work individually on themselves. But if you want to do this at the organizational level, I think you also need to be getting a measure on how safe do people feel, because if they don't feel safe, they are not likely to be willing to do the difficult thing.

00:25:10:20 - 00:25:46:12

Rachael Skews

So that's one thing I think, in terms of some of the other challenges, I think when you have got things that are quite difficult for people, you know, humans, we we're really into fairness as a general rule. We like fair environments. We like fair spaces, we like fair relationships. And I think if there is a perceived unfairness, given organization, then that's going to be a challenge for people too, because that's going to be there's going to be a lot of quite big emotions there.

00:25:46:14 - 00:25:47:21

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah.

00:25:47:23 - 00:26:10:09

Rachael Skews

Another thing that I've noticed less and less, I would say this is within the organizations that I tend to work with seems to be less of a problem. But I think the authenticity and organizational values, so some, organizations will have a set of values, and then employers are looking at that and saying that isn't what's important to us.

00:26:10:11 - 00:26:32:21

Rachael Skews

You know? So I think there are some challenges there that if you are trying to get people to align with those organizational values and think about their own values in relation to it, which is often where you get a sense of, is this a good fit? You know, this is a good fit for me as a client, as an employee, you know, whatever that context might be.

00:26:32:23 - 00:26:56:10

Rachael Skews

so I think being organizations, being honest and true to those fronts is quite important. And I increasingly I see, I see and I work with organizations where I think they've got them, they've got them right. But in my early career, I saw that a little bit less, you know, like employees would come to me and say, that's not what this company cares about.

00:26:56:12 - 00:27:00:04

Rachael Skews

And people know, I think as well. Sometimes lately.

00:27:00:06 - 00:27:29:20

Helen Fitzhugh

I don't know if you know Rachael, but, some colleagues of mine, on this, wellbeing project, we did a paper for the British Journal of Management on authenticity in organizations and its relation to wellbeing. So you're preaching to the converted. Definitely. But listeners might also be interested in that. So there is, there is an authenticity building resource on the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing website that people can have a look at that's based on that, that journal article and research.

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:51:17

Rachael Skews

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it. Like this. There are elements of what organizations can do. And a lot of it makes sense together being spent building this flexibility. And I'm talking about meat psychologically safe. But then if you do that work you get a wealth of benefits across the organization. It's money well spent in my opinion.

00:27:51:19 - 00:27:54:22

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. It connects up all of those things, doesn't it?

00:27:54:24 - 00:28:20:15

Rachael Skews

Because organizations are systems. They're complex. You know, the individuals within them, like you say, you know, there are things that we can do at an individual level, and that's great. And that should be part of what we're doing. But I think, you know, for organizations to really make good progress in the area in sustained performance, I think they need to be thinking about what's the environment that employees are going into.

00:28:20:17 - 00:28:32:17

Rachael Skews

Part of that is created by managers, part of it is through those organizational norms and behavioural practices that we have and processes and all of that kind of thing. Yeah.

00:28:32:23 - 00:28:51:18

Helen Fitzhugh

Great. Thank you. I think it's been fab to hear your kind of all your range of experience coming into play in the things you've said today. So that's been really helpful. I wonder if drawing on that and looking to the future, what do you think are the kind of pressing workplace wellbeing issues that are to come?

00:28:51:20 - 00:29:22:20

Rachael Skews

It's such a good and important question. So I think for me, in terms of wellbeing in the workplace, I think it's going to be better diagnosing within that complex system. What's working and what isn't for organizations. So I'm one of the areas that I'm working in is looking at, more diverse populations. So people who are neurodivergent, people who might have chronic health conditions.

00:29:22:22 - 00:29:43:05

Rachael Skews

So we know work is good for people if it feeds them, if it doesn't kind of put too much demand in, you know, the demand outweighs the resources that they have to respond to those demands. We know that's when people are going to get ill. Yeah. whether they have a, you know, a neurodivergent condition or a chronic condition, you know, that's true of humans.

00:29:43:05 - 00:30:11:16

Rachael Skews

That's why the rest in recovery is important. So if you've got individuals who then also have the extra demand of a chronic health condition. So chronic pain or something like that, creating spaces where there is inclusivity to that group. So organizations putting in reasonable adjustments, allowing people to really shine and share their skills and do amazing work for you, but not at the cost of their health.

00:30:11:22 - 00:30:12:08

Rachael Skews

Right.

00:30:12:09 - 00:30:29:10

Helen Fitzhugh

Thank you. We're coming to the end now. So I'm just going to ask you if if our listener only takes one simple message from listening to this podcast. And of course, I'm hoping they take lots more than that. But if it was just one simple message they take from what you've said today, what would you want it to be?

00:30:29:12 - 00:31:14:14

Rachael Skews

It's really, really hard. But what I'm going to go for is sometimes there's being all carrot and no stick gets you to a really good place. And by that what I mean is, you know, giving people a lot of positive experiences and positive reinforcement and environments that are safe and places where they can be heard and seen, you know, that will pay back one of the things which I think is a barrier to organizations doing some of the stuff that I'm talking about, I would interpret as fear of being taken advantage of, fear of employees being, untruthful about conditions or asking for unreasonable things.

00:31:14:14 - 00:31:37:05

Rachael Skews

And, you know, that's what I hear. And when organizations, kind of push back on some of this, and I think those, those kinds of things do need to be managed, but I think there's a bravery in being able to step forward and say, we're going to treat people in a certain way because we know there's going to be some benefit that we get as an organization.

00:31:37:07 - 00:31:59:00

Rachael Skews

I think that is where the organizational flexibility comes in to notice those fears, but still be willing to try something which feels a little bit radical, perhaps to some organizations. I know lots of organizations are embracing a lot of this stuff already, but being able to, you know, have that willingness to step into the swamp. This is a metaphor I use a lot.

00:31:59:01 - 00:32:30:15

Rachael Skews

My coach stepping into the swamp. And I think with HR teams, especially getting the buy in from senior stakeholders and allowing their peers to have voice, and this is where the evidence is really helpful. You know, draw on the evidence, use the kind of, literature that's available to you and really think about, can we just take steps towards having that carrot land culture, if you like?

00:32:30:17 - 00:32:44:06

Rachael Skews

because the behavioural science seems so clear, you know, it's all saying the same thing, that if you create the right environment, people shine and they are well and they are engaged and they really enjoy the work that they have.

00:32:44:08 - 00:32:48:07

Helen Fitzhugh

Great. Thank you so much, Rachael. That was really interesting.

00:32:48:09 - 00:32:58:24

Rachael Skews

Thank you for inviting me onto the podcast. I think it's a really interesting podcast, so it's a nice one to add into my network of resources, and I hope it's been a helpful session.

00:32:59:01 - 00:33:04:06

Helen Fitzhugh

It really has. Thank you very much.

00:33:04:08 - 00:33:16:05

Helen Fitzhugh

Please do visit www.EvolveWorkplaceWellbeing.org. We look forward to seeing you next time.