Insights on relationship-building for wellbeing in small businesses

In this edition of the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast, Dr Helen Fitzhugh of the University of East Anglia speaks with Lisa Chamberlain, a doctoral candidate at the University of Liverpool working in the field of Human Resource Management research. Lisa's previous experience as a Sergeant in the US army and an HR manager in a small Liverpool business led her to PhD research on job quality in small businesses for hairdressers. Engaging and insightful throughout, Lisa shares examples of relationship-building that will be of interest to any HR manager.  

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:04

Helen Fitzhugh

Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org  

00:00:29:06 - 00:00:44:17

Helen Fitzhugh

Hi, I'm Doctor Helen Fitzhugh of the workplace wellbeing research team at the University of East Anglia. In today's podcast, I'm speaking with Lisa Chamberlain, a doctoral student at the University of Liverpool in the field of human resource management. Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

00:00:44:19 - 00:00:45:23

Lisa Chamberlain

Thank you very much.

00:00:46:00 - 00:00:51:15

Helen Fitzhugh

Thank you. You and I have met before, but I wonder if you could introduce yourself to our listener.

00:00:51:17 - 00:01:14:07

Lisa Chamberlain

Of course. So my name's Lisa. As you can probably tell, I'm an American. I'm studying here in the UK and lived here for about 15 years now. 13 years, something like that. and I originally moved to England when I was in the US Air Force. So I spent about ten years in the Air Force, as a non-commissioned officer.

00:01:14:07 - 00:01:36:05

Lisa Chamberlain

So I was Sergeant Chamberlain. I did logistics work, small teams management, that kind of stuff. And I got really interested in how people come together in organizations to make things happen. And so when I decided it was time to leave the Air Force, I stayed here in the UK. I came up to Liverpool and did a Master's in HRM.

00:01:36:05 - 00:01:58:23

Lisa Chamberlain

And then I worked for, about two years as an HR manager in a small business in Liverpool, which was wildly different to being in the Air Force. And it was also really different than what I had been led to expect would be happening with HR. Based on what I learned on my Master's. And so that puzzle was just too interesting not to look into more.

00:01:58:23 - 00:02:06:18

Lisa Chamberlain

So I came back to the University of Liverpool and started a PhD, and I'm about to finish now. It's very exciting.

00:02:06:20 - 00:02:30:20

Helen Fitzhugh

That is very exciting and what a brilliant range of experience there as well. So I don't think we've had anyone, who's a sergeant before. I was thinking, well, we had police, police officers, but we haven't had a sergeant on before. So welcome. So, you did your, Masters in HRM, which we should say is human resource management for anyone who doesn't know that acronym.

00:02:30:22 - 00:02:37:05

Helen Fitzhugh

Can you tell us a little bit more about what drew you to studying kind of human resource related topics? What fascinated you?

00:02:37:07 - 00:02:59:14

Lisa Chamberlain

I think it was that I really am very interested in people in groups. I think groups of people are very interesting to me. and, and like I said, how you can get people that kind of have a bit in common because they all work in the same place. But how do you get them to all work together towards the same goals?

00:02:59:16 - 00:03:18:19

Lisa Chamberlain

I just it was just really interesting to me. I wanted to work with people, but not in like a therapeutic capacity, for instance. It's kind of a little more stripped back than that. and I do I, I really one of the things I really enjoyed about being in the military was I do think it's really interesting how organizations can make things happen.

00:03:18:21 - 00:03:39:14

Lisa Chamberlain

You would think that everybody has a lot in common because they've all decided to join the military, but really they don't. People come from all different backgrounds all across the country, education levels and the way that you can get different groups of people to work together very well. I think that was really interesting to me. I'm interested in people and groups, not people.

00:03:39:17 - 00:03:51:00

Lisa Chamberlain

I am interested in people 1 to 1. But you know what I mean? It's it's why aren't you a therapist? Well, I'm interested in group behavior and how how we can work together to make things nice for people at their work.

00:03:51:02 - 00:04:00:10

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. That's interesting. You say that. Actually, I feel exactly the same. That sense of how do we all come together and make something happen? And you need more, more than one person for that?

00:04:00:12 - 00:04:02:06

Lisa Chamberlain

Definitely, yes. Yeah.

00:04:02:08 - 00:04:17:18

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. Great. Okay. So you you mentioned in your introduction that you're coming to the end of your PhD research. Yeah. Very exciting times. Could you tell us a bit about it and what from it might be of interest to HR partners and managers?

00:04:17:20 - 00:04:44:01

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, of course I would love to. Everybody wants to talk about their PhD research. So I was really interested in basically the differences between working like what it's like to work in the small business. Because to be perfectly honest, it's not really for me. And I personally feel more comfortable in a bit of a more structured environment. And I, I think that that in itself is interesting.

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:10:12

Lisa Chamberlain

And why do people choose to work in, in different environments? And I also I was very interested in kind of job quality. And how do we make sure that people can have good quality work, regardless of what that type of work is? And I think that can be very individual. So I wanted to understand through my PhD what it's like to work in a small business.

00:05:10:12 - 00:05:37:20

Lisa Chamberlain

And I was also interested in how kind of a business owner, manager or small business owner managers might think differently about what good work is compared to people who work in small businesses. So I ended up talking to hairdressers all across England. It was fabulous. They were lovely people and we just kind of talked through in this very open way about what their work was like and what was interesting to them and what they liked and what they didn't like.

00:05:37:20 - 00:05:56:01

Lisa Chamberlain

And so was able to kind of get an idea of what people who really work in small businesses and like that, what they think good work is, and how that might be a little bit different than somebody like me who's really interested in staying in big, bigger organizations. What I might think of as good work.

00:05:56:03 - 00:06:11:24

Helen Fitzhugh

Well, that sounds fascinating. And yeah, one of those things that we in workplace wellbeing research often say is, you know, we we have so much more from large organizations. So it's, it's really nice that you're bringing something from the, from the smaller organizations. What can you tell us? What have you found out?

00:06:12:01 - 00:06:33:00

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think the first thing I found out is kind of what you would expect, the things that you would expect people to want and work they do. So basically people want to have earn a living wage that helps them get on with their life without being too stressed. They want to be able to have enough time to spend with their family.

00:06:33:00 - 00:06:58:19

Lisa Chamberlain

They don't want their working life to intrude into their personal life unless they've chosen that. So all those sorts of things that are pretty well established naturally, they want those too. The really interesting thing that doesn't get talked about a lot is in when you're talking, you know, legislative conversations or even when you're talking from manager to manager is how important relationships at work are.

00:06:58:21 - 00:07:22:01

Lisa Chamberlain

And we call it that psychosocial element of of workplace well-being. And so it's not just that you want a job where your boss is nice to you. You also want a job where you have fulfilling relationships with other people. And it was really interesting when I, especially right at the beginning of my PhD, when I was telling, you know, family and friends and I live in Liverpool, so people are very friendly.

00:07:22:01 - 00:07:56:01

Lisa Chamberlain

So I was also telling random people on the bus at the coffee shop what I was doing. You know, when I said I'm interested in what makes a good job, almost invariably people would say, oh, well, it's the people you work with really, isn't it? And we found out, yeah, that that really is true. And so since I was talking to hairdressers right here in this personal service work that frontline service workers are really out there talking to people and the relationships that they have with other people that they work with are really, really important, which is good because it means that you can really create a rich and fulfilling working life.

00:07:56:03 - 00:08:20:13

Lisa Chamberlain

But it is a bit of a double edged sword, because it means that those social obligations and those social ties can kind of lead people to put up with things that they don't like so much, maybe working longer hours, maybe taking lower pay and they kind of it seems fine, and then all of a sudden it's not. And you get to a breaking point and it's really disruptive in the worker's life.

00:08:20:13 - 00:08:37:22

Lisa Chamberlain

And it's quite disruptive for the organization as well. So I think that was the main takeaway was that relationships with other people are really, really, really important. And then some other obviously found out lots of other things too. But I think that's the number one thing. Yeah.

00:08:37:24 - 00:08:57:12

Helen Fitzhugh

And it reminds me that, I said we've met before. I think I was probably talking at the time about our Good Jobs Project work and how you improve the working lives of frontline workers. And, you know, all of those points that we had in the in the Good Jobs project, the Four Boosts for Frontline Workers, you know, ‘let me connect’, ‘care about me and my life’, ‘make me part of the conversation’...

00:08:57:17 - 00:09:06:24

Helen Fitzhugh

There are all these interpersonal things that were really flagged up by by retail, hospitality and care workers. So it's nice to have that kind of reinforced and said back.

00:09:07:01 - 00:09:28:06

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yes, yes. And the thing is like it is one of those things, if you just talk to people about their work, it will come up. But when you are talking at, for instance, a governmental level, it doesn't come up. Or when you're trying to think like, oh, is job quality in Britain basically getting better or worse?

00:09:28:08 - 00:10:09:12

Lisa Chamberlain

You know those they're not looking at stuff like how people are feeling at work. And so I think that that's a real that's a real shame. It can be quite dehumanizing in the sense that it makes the conversation about wages and working time, which are very important, but they're not everything. And so I think that if we could have a bit of a fuller conversation, that would really help us, especially if you're a small business owner and you have such constrained resources, you can't necessarily, you know, just give people the very highest paycheck in the world because you don't have those financial resources.

00:10:09:12 - 00:10:21:09

Lisa Chamberlain

But what you can do is really nurture those relationships in a good and healthy way. And so I think if we did a bit better job of communicating about that, that could maybe shift the conversation in a more productive direction.

00:10:21:11 - 00:10:33:17

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Talking about that process of nurturing those relationships, do you have any examples from your research around how people do that and how what other people could learn from?

00:10:33:19 - 00:10:59:18

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, absolutely. I think I want to start with kind of a, a bit of a sad example. So one salon owner was very sad because she couldn't offer full maternity pay for a full year because she simply can't afford it. She's a small business owner, but what she can do and what she did do was bring people in on training, find extra training for them to do hairdressing changes.

00:10:59:18 - 00:11:24:23

Lisa Chamberlain

So often, you know you can bring brand reps in to train, do things like that. Another thing that's really valuable is letting people know that you care about them. So I had another participant who, was part of a hairdressing competition, and the woman that she worked for the on the salon said, you know, “I want you to win this for you, not for us.

00:11:24:23 - 00:11:48:08

Lisa Chamberlain

Like, you don't have to say the name of the salon. That's not important to me. I'm just happy that you were getting to do the thing that you want to do.” So I think that making those personal connections meaningful and authentic, which I know can be like a tricky thing to do, and you don't want to cross lines and like, I can understand how that can, can not always be the easiest thing, but that's really important.

00:11:48:10 - 00:12:14:04

Lisa Chamberlain

I think another thing small businesses are very good at and maybe underestimate, is how flexible they are that small businesses have, yes, fewer people working, less financial resources. But also you can change at the snap of a finger so you can change directions so you can let people if something comes up as an emergency, it's much easier for a small business to say, yeah, go ahead and take a week off as opposed to a large business.

00:12:14:04 - 00:12:40:05

Lisa Chamberlain

We have to go through all the, you know, bureaucracy and all of this. and I think that flexibility and agility is another thing that can be really valuable. And letting workers take advantage of that when they need to is a really nice way to build up those relationships. Lean in to what you're good at as a business, as a small business, and really create, a nice working environment.

00:12:40:07 - 00:12:42:02

Helen Fitzhugh

if you've got any other examples.

00:12:42:04 - 00:13:26:06

Lisa Chamberlain

Yes. One thing that we found that's really interesting is how important social media is. And how recognition on social media can be such a nice way to just publicly say, hey, this person is doing great work, you know, not as a marketing exercise, as a way of appreciating your employees and your workers. Obviously with hairdressing, because it's so visual, because so much marketing for hairdressing happens online, on Instagram and on TikTok and on Facebook, it can be really powerful for the person who owns the salon or the manager to take a picture or share a picture of somebody else's work and say, “oh my gosh, look at this amazing hair that Helen did today.

00:13:26:06 - 00:13:57:18

Lisa Chamberlain

It's so cool. You can book in with her.” So obviously you're also getting those benefits, but that we found was really meaningful to people. They really liked it. And even when it wasn't shared publicly or posted on social media, I found another thing that people did that was very effective is if they saw a good review, especially on online booking website, they would take a screenshot and send it into like group chats with their workers and say, “how did you see Helen got this great review, good job.”

00:13:57:18 - 00:14:17:08

Lisa Chamberlain

And then everybody could kind of celebrate together. So that's a nice way to just share what's going well. Do a bit of public recognition doesn't cost anything really easy. Really makes people feel good and also has some nice business benefits. But I'm here for the people, so that's great.

00:14:17:08 - 00:14:34:04

Helen Fitzhugh

Thank you. Yeah. And I think it's really nice on this podcast to hear about those kind of really low cost, useful things that people are doing when they have to be inventive in that environment. They haven't got the resources of a, you know, a 20,000 person organization.

00:14:34:08 - 00:14:52:08

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it just you can't underestimate how big a deal it is for people. Like if you've got a trainee and they did, you know, a beautiful set of hair to say, “oh, we're so proud of her. She's doing so well” publicly. I think that's just really nice.

00:14:52:10 - 00:14:57:20

Helen Fitzhugh

Thanks. And I think there was a third paper you did as well. What was that one about?

00:14:57:22 - 00:15:33:20

Lisa Chamberlain

Yes. So the third paper ended up being about time because we were very surprised people talked about time so much. I expected them to discuss in terms of, oh, we have appointments, of course, but it also seemed to affect what their goals were in terms of their own kind of job quality and quality of working life. So some people were in a place in their life where they really needed to focus on being very busy, and they needed to make sure that they had a lot of work coming in, and they had the wages coming in, and those people were more willing to sacrifice things like time with their family, whereas other people were really

00:15:33:20 - 00:15:54:00

Lisa Chamberlain

focused on being independent and just wanted to do what they wanted to do for themselves. And there was a third group of people who kind of really wanted to try to balance between the two, and those kind of perspectives, changed their workplace behaviors and how they structured their working days. So in terms of how many clients they would take.

00:15:54:06 - 00:16:15:00

Lisa Chamberlain

So when we're thinking about small business owners, you know, having those 1 to 1 connections with people and managers having those connections, I think part of it is understanding what people's priorities are. It's interesting to think about how people are experiencing their time and want to use their time and what they're willing to sacrifice to meet certain goals.

00:16:15:02 - 00:16:20:24

Lisa Chamberlain

And I think that's part of having this really good 1 to 1 conversations with the other people that you work with.

00:16:21:01 - 00:16:41:09

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. And I suppose that kind of ties in with the Good Jobs Project work we did on ‘care about me and my life’. It's not saying that you have to be a counsellor or a therapist, or that you have to do everything for that person to support them. It's more just having an awareness of what their particular goals are at this point in time, and they might change over time.

00:16:41:11 - 00:17:03:21

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah, exactly. And one of the one of the ladies I spoke to, you know, she was quite frustrated because she really wanted to spend more time with kind of training and social events with some of the people who rented chairs from her, because that was really important to her. And she said, but that's not where they are. Like, they just need to make a lot of money right now so they don't want to take the time.

00:17:03:21 - 00:17:15:19

Lisa Chamberlain

And she was kind of frustrated by that. But yeah, that's exactly it. Like what people want to do with their time can be very different. And so knowing that knowing where people are can really change how you approach their management.

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:21:21

Helen Fitzhugh

What do you think are the main challenges to small businesses of making progress on workplace wellbeing?

00:17:21:23 - 00:17:55:15

Lisa Chamberlain

I think one of the challenges beyond, again, the obvious challenges of restricted time and resources is, is kind of a flip of what I said before is I think people who own and operate small businesses have their own priorities. And we know this, like research tells us that lots of people who have small businesses, what they want out of their life is enough money to get by, to have a nice life, to go on some nice holidays, be flexible, be their own boss.

00:17:55:17 - 00:18:30:07

Lisa Chamberlain

But that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody that's working for you also wants those things. So the problem with cultivating an authentic family dynamic is, of course, there's all different kinds of families. And so I think that it's really becomes even more important in a small environment for leaders to be very, very self-reflective and to build time into there's, I know, incredibly busy schedules to stop and think about what am I doing and what do these people that are working for me really want?

00:18:30:09 - 00:18:59:21

Lisa Chamberlain

Because I think it can be very easy to think, oh well, what they really want is a lot more training because I think training is really fun and interesting. So surely they want that too. But sometimes the answer is no, I don't. That's not what's interesting to me. That's not helping me meet my goals in my life. So not to say that you should sit down and have very formal 1 to 1 chats and, you know, kind of try to copy these big business things because it just it claims it doesn't work well.

00:18:59:23 - 00:19:29:16

Lisa Chamberlain

But I think the hardest part for small businesses is the fewer people you have making decisions, obviously the more impactful those decisions become. And that also means you have fewer people to kind of act as sounding boards, which means that you also have fewer people to have as a sounding board about your workplace, personal relationships, and how I don't want to say reasonable or unreasonable, but, you know, I think it can be very helpful.

00:19:29:16 - 00:20:01:17

Lisa Chamberlain

Essentially what I'm saying is get a buddy, like, have a business buddy that you can talk to. You know, like, I mentioned the lady before who had the business mentor who was, I think, like her mum, her friend's mum or somebody you knew small business owners and managers are so good with their networks. So really just having people around who will tell you no or say, I'm not sure, you know, doing that, really checking in with your workers and checking in with yourself, I think becomes really, really important.

00:20:01:17 - 00:20:07:12

Lisa Chamberlain

And it's hard because you don't have time because you were running a small business. But it's important to make the time, I think.

00:20:07:17 - 00:20:22:21

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. And I suppose it's that whole, kind of cliche of actually it will save you time because you won't, you know, taking ten minutes to have a sounding board might prevent a mistake that will cost you two days worth of sorting out or whatever.

00:20:22:23 - 00:20:25:14

Lisa Chamberlain

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. That's it. Yeah.

00:20:25:17 - 00:20:30:20

Helen Fitzhugh

Great. Any other challenges that, you know, you can see in regard to workplace wellbeing?

00:20:30:22 - 00:20:54:14

Lisa Chamberlain

Yes. I think that health and safety can actually be quite a big challenge as well. because and I know this from my own working experience and from talking to hairdressers, a lot of the things that mandates about health and safety, obviously, I'm very much for them, but they do involve a lot of red tape and they can be quite expensive.

00:20:54:16 - 00:21:25:24

Lisa Chamberlain

For instance, the special bins where you put used menstrual products, those have to be taken away by specialized companies, right? You can't just do that like toss it in the bin yourself. Well, for a small business like that's a big expense to buy and have these bins, right. So little things like that. The thing I noticed with hairdressing that I found quite surprising because of the fact that I had done so much logistics work, when I was in the military.

00:21:25:24 - 00:21:45:04

Lisa Chamberlain

So I was very used to like manual labour and standing up. None of these salons had really simple things like pressure relief maps, you know, like you would see in a factory or, or on a packing room floor. And I really I asked a few people about it and everybody one lady said, oh, I think that's an American thing.

00:21:45:06 - 00:22:21:03

Lisa Chamberlain

And I said, well, you know, I didn't say, no, it's not but it was in my head. No it's not. You also have knees need to be protected. So I think that, and again, it's part of that, that momentum of, of being in a small business like you just are doing the next thing and doing the next thing. And so I think that it can be challenging to, kind of stop and think about really basic health and safety things and, you know, not in terms of what your statutory requirement is, but just in terms of, hey, we stand up a lot and maybe pressure relief mats under the chairs would be too hard, but we

00:22:21:03 - 00:22:46:20

Lisa Chamberlain

could have them in the back room where people mix color, you know, little, I think little adjustments to health and safety things, making sure people are taking lunches, making sure people are taking breaks, things like that. And again, because people have such close social relationships, because people are so used to going outside of that role, trying a bit, you know, trying a bit harder, I really want to make everybody happy.

00:22:46:20 - 00:23:06:04

Lisa Chamberlain

I think it's very easy for people's personal, like embodied needs to kind of get pushed by the wayside because you don't want to let the team down. You know, you don't say, oh God, I, I want to help you pack up all these orders, but my knees are killing me. And also, I'm the graphic designer. So you're not going to say that you're going to do it.

00:23:06:04 - 00:23:10:08

Lisa Chamberlain

So I think, again, it's just about being really conscious of what you're asking of people.

00:23:10:10 - 00:23:35:07

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. And I think that's also, it reminds me of some research we were doing where we were talking about, how do you make decisions about workplace wellbeing? and one of the interviewees was talking about, you know, you know, the businesses we've been talking about financial wellbeing programs or, nutrition or, you know, all sorts of all sorts of things that seem to be very congruent with wellbeing as a concept.

00:23:35:07 - 00:23:50:18

Helen Fitzhugh

And then we had someone in this other place which was construction play, saying there was a guy who had a mask to protect him from asbestos, and he cut a hole in it, put a cigarette through it, and you just think, okay, well, we need to not forget the basics.

00:23:50:20 - 00:23:56:11

Lisa Chamberlain

And there that's it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes tell people no. Yeah.

00:23:56:13 - 00:24:09:17

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah. Exactly. There are, there are things that are fundamental that we hope are already addressed. But we mustn't, we mustn't assume. Yeah. Yeah. So I like I like the point that we all have knees, not just Americans.

00:24:09:19 - 00:24:15:08

Lisa Chamberlain

Yeah definitely not. Although I do have lovely American knees.

00:24:15:10 - 00:24:28:06

Helen Fitzhugh

Good. Okay. So thank you for sharing that with us. Looking to the future, given you've been doing this research, what do you think are going to be the pressing workplace wellbeing issues of the next decade?

00:24:28:08 - 00:25:03:18

Lisa Chamberlain

I think one of the big challenges for workplace wellbeing is going to be about kind of where we put the boundaries around what the workplace is and isn't, especially given how easy it is to communicate with, for instance, clients outside of working times, bosses outside of working times, and also the people are very conscious. I think especially post-Covid, people want to protect their personal time, and I think there's a real push pull there because we want to let people have time off and rest.

00:25:03:18 - 00:25:35:07

Lisa Chamberlain

But also, you know, you're never really off. And I think that that's I think that's a big challenge about how do you negotiate with your workers about when they can reasonably be expected to be contacted, when they can't, when do they need to talk to clients? Do they have to talk to clients outside of hours or not? I think kind of drawing those boundaries and having some expectations, I think is has been a challenge for people and will continue to be a challenge for people.

00:25:35:07 - 00:26:02:01

Lisa Chamberlain

And I know that sounds like such a, I don't know, maybe like a strange or an obvious thing, but I think it's just so insidious. You know, we didn't when I was talking to people, I didn't have like a list of questions to ask them. I showed them some photographs based on things that I had observed in salons, but mostly we just had a conversation and they talked about social media, and they talked about, oh my God, now I have to make these reels to get clients in.

00:26:02:01 - 00:26:25:16

Lisa Chamberlain

And it's just really stressful and it's really hard. And so I think it's great that people can expand and learn lots of new skills. And, you know, job craft however you want to say it. But then it can also be really stressful for people and that can also cause a lot of strain. And so I think it will be a big challenge to kind of know when we need to put the brakes on, you know, especially as leaders and managers just say, yeah, you know what?

00:26:25:17 - 00:26:47:12

Lisa Chamberlain

Maybe just because I work 24 seven doesn't mean that the people that are working with me need to do that. And how can I make it clear to them that, no, really, just because I send you a text to 11:00 at night, you really, really do not need to respond to that. You know, I know that this about myself, as I can be quite, strict about what I think is an emergency.

00:26:47:14 - 00:27:10:09

Lisa Chamberlain

And that is 100% the consequence of my previous career. So for me, I would really encourage businesses, the business owners of business managers think, is anybody bleeding? Yeah. Is anything that costs more than £500 broken or going to break? If it's not, that's probably not really an emergency and it can wait at least 20 minutes, you know what I mean?

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:19:15

Lisa Chamberlain

Like just kind of getting some perspective would be really helpful. And I think that, that that's a challenge. That's a challenge for all of us, not just in the workplace. But.

00:27:19:17 - 00:27:36:12

Helen Fitzhugh

Yeah, that's a really good point. Thank you. I've really enjoyed speaking with you. I think hopefully the listener will have enjoyed spending this time with you as well. But if they only take one message from today, we're hoping they take more. Of course. What would you want that message to be?

00:27:36:17 - 00:28:04:02

Lisa Chamberlain

I want them to know how great small businesses are, the reason that small businesses are so amazing to be around and to work for, and such great parts of our communities is because of the people that work there, and because they have those personal connections with each other, with the community, with the industry. That authenticity and that flexibility, I think is something to be valued.

00:28:04:02 - 00:28:43:21

Lisa Chamberlain

And so the one thing I want people to take away is, you know, if you were in a small or medium sized business not to think about, oh, these restrictions, oh, were resource restricted like, no, you are resource rich. You have so much to offer. And I think that it's just a wonderful thing. And I am just so impressed by all the small business owner managers, because I could never I think it's really, I think the really great places to work if, if you'd like to really have a lot of flexibility, a lot of autonomy, and really, really in-depth personal relationships, I think small businesses are great.

00:28:43:23 - 00:28:54:07

Helen Fitzhugh

A lovely, good place to finish. Thank you so much. Thank you for spending time speaking with us. And we all wish you good luck with your viva as well.

00:28:54:09 - 00:28:57:15

Lisa Chamberlain

Thank you very much. Thank you.

00:28:57:17 - 00:29:16:10

Helen Fitzhugh

Thanks. Thanks to everyone for listening to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast today. Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org We look forward to seeing you next time.