S2: Episode 6: The Silent Epidemic: Burnout in a Profession Meant to Heal

Are you feeling overwhelmed and exhausted from your job? 

Dr. Mary Grimberg delves into the pervasive issue of workplace burnout, especially in the healthcare sector, with guest expert Meredith Grossman, a practicing physical therapist and the founder of Health Care Unraveled.

Dr. Mary and Meredith explore the often-taboo topic of workplace burnout and its extensive impacts on physical and mental health. Meredith shares her personal journey through burnout and how it inspired her to create a platform dedicated to helping healthcare professionals overcome this challenge.

Key highlights from the episode include:

• Understanding how burnout affects your body and mental health across various industries.
• The normalizing of toxic work environments and the importance of recognizing burnout symptoms such as anxiety, irritability, and physical health issues like insomnia and cardiovascular problems.
• The crucial role of relational health and social support, and its impact on overall well-being.
• Practical tips on setting boundaries and finding ways to protect your energy in both toxic and demanding work environments.
• The concept of the growth edge and how small, sustainable steps can alleviate the pressure of burnout.

For those interested in learning more, Meredith offers programs and webinars that specifically target burnout in the healthcare sector. Follow her on Instagram (@MeredithGrossmanPT) and visit her website (healthcareunraveled.com) for more resources.

Timestamped Overview

00:00 Exploring Burnout Across Industries

03:32 "Toxicity in Healthcare Norms"

06:54 Normalization of Overwork and Sacrifice

12:02 Rethinking Exhaustive Work Routines

14:52 Burnout's Impact on Relationships

17:37 Hidden Health: Beyond Physical Fitness

23:39 Start Small: Set Work Boundaries

26:39 People Pleasers and Perfectionists' Struggles

31:46 Healthcare Burnout and Self-Care Priorities

35:13 Holistic Approach to Combat Burnout

37:07 Overcoming People Pleasing

42:37 Balancing Authenticity and Professionalism

46:27 "You Are Not the Problem"

48:51 Burnout Workshops & Webinars

If you have any other questions or topics you want to talk about, send me a message on Instagram. And if you loved this episode, please leave me a rating and a comment with your feedback. Please share this with your friends and loved ones, too!

I’ll see you in a week!

Transcript

0:07

Ready to tackle the topics that you've been curious about, but never felt comfortable asking? With a straightforward, no nonsense perspective on life, blended with candid stories and a healthy dose of humor, doctor Mary Grimberg cuts through the fluff and addresses the conversations we all need to have on TMI talk, where no subject is too taboo, our bodies, our minds, and everything in between. Now here's your host, doctor Mary. Hello, everyone, and welcome to TMI talk with doctor Mary. Today, we're gonna be talking about burnout in the workplace and how it affects our health. And today, we have doctor Meredith Grossman, who is a practicing physical therapist in New Orleans, Louisiana, the founder of Health Care Unraveled. The project was started in July 2022 as a tool to combat her own burnout. It has since grown into an educational and coaching platform to help other health care workers overcome their burnout and build fulfilling careers. Thank you so much for being here, Meredith. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. I thought you were the perfect person to talk about this. I know a lot of your focus is on health care, but it can really go universal with, you know, with other industries and things like that. So I thought it'd be good to chat with you about how I think people don't realize how much showing up in a unhealthy workplace or a workplace without boundaries affects their bodies and their health. And so I'd love to dive in and understand a little bit about your journey and how you got to this direction as a physical therapist. Yeah. Absolutely. It's so true that I really have focused on, you know, burnout in the health care space, but we know that burnout is a problem across industries, especially in in recent years with COVID, and how that has affected people's kind of work environments. But I got started with kind of being interested in this topic a couple years into my career, experiencing burnout myself and also seeing a lot of people around me, experience burnout in my first workplace. And it was a situation where we kind of you know, everyone sort of knew that they were burnt out. It wasn't really on my radar going into this job. I was really kind of focused on the fact that, you know, it didn't have a a super high patient volume. I thought that would be kind of enough to inherently protect me from, from burning out. And so as I was, just getting into a place where I was exhausted, I felt like I just could not recover from a workday, a workweek. And and, again, I was seeing a lot of other people experience it at the same time. I I was just sort of, it just got me to wondering, like, what is really going on here, and why aren't why don't we know more about this? Why don't we know kind of what to do about this, which led me down, like, a research path, of of starting to kinda just understand not only burnout itself, but also the dynamics of my field specifically that that contribute to it. Yeah. It's it's funny. I feel like in health care, it's almost normalized, this toxicity, these environments where if you speak up or have boundaries or, you know, you're almost like an outlier. I've I noticed that for myself as I was like a troublemaker, and I'm like, I don't wanna work, you know, more than the 40 hours I'm getting paid for. Is that really that hard? And, you know, I don't wanna treat 20 patients a day. I feel like that's a disservice to them, and, you know, it's it's a it's a tough thing to navigate because it's the you know, the health care system is is, you know, not great in a variety of ways. But, yeah, I think that it's funny, I think, in any industry, I think it's normalized. So you you if you're listening to this and you're like, man, I am just really struggling and I feel like nobody else is, I can guarantee you they are. They're just dealing with it, and they're not understanding how it's affecting their bodies yet. You know? There's a breaking point at some point. Absolutely. And kind of to the topic of your podcast, I think it is something that is still sort of taboo to talk about openly, especially with other people in the workplace. Like, we we don't see a lot of, open conversations happening about, the the ways that the dynamics of the workplace are contributing to people's, to to people suffering and and having, you know, issues with their, with their energy, with their health, etcetera. And because of that, I think a lot of people do feel isolated or feel like there's something wrong with them specifically, when in reality, the, like, the the prevalence numbers that we see, again, across industries are are extremely high for people really struggling, with to to sustain, a a work life, to sustain, themselves in in an organization. Yeah. You know, it's it these big especially, like, these bigger I mean, it's not even just corporate. It can be any business. Right? It can be anything of even even if you're self employed, there's burnout. Right? Like, there's this, like, little thin lie like, not line. There's, like, this underlying kind of message that we don't really talk about. It's like, keep working. Play is not play is not good. Like, you're not productive. You cannot do that. And we know with, like, healing trauma and helping with the nervous system is play and joy and laughter. Those are foundational things to our health, and that's not talked about either. And so I actually find a lot of times when people are working these crazy hours and they're doing these things, relying heavily on caffeine, heavily on stimulants, and then they're coming down on alcohol or, like, marijuana or these things. It's like and we're wondering why we feel like shit. We're wondering why our hormones are off. Right? And and, you know, I treat a lot of pelvic floor dysfunction. And with that, it's like, if you're stressed all the time, you're clenching your ass all day and, like, your pelvic floor and, you know, that can can do that too. So looking at the person as an overall, you know, human and how that affects their bodies, it's wild when you really think about it, that we're not talking about it. Absolutely. It's so it's become so normalized to work ourselves past our capacity, to the point that it it's pretty much expected from most adults at this point, and especially when you bring in other factors, families, having kids, like, all the working full time. It's it's kind of just normalized and and even celebrated. And I think, again, especially in health care, but also very much in others in other industries and spaces as well. It's like, you know, we we kind of pedestal people who we perceive as really hard workers, really sort of self sacrificing for, the greater good or for what they are working for. And I think that really, again, it that that that really becomes a limiting factor when we do eventually sit down and and try to set boundaries because there's so much messaging around us that that this is what we should be doing. And then this is what it looks like to be, you know, a a good contributor, or, you know, to to to, again, like you said, be productive is really the the, what what what what we tend to, reward. Oh, yeah. We reward it, and what we're not understanding I think so much of this reward is like and, I mean, as physical therapists, we don't really get paid much in corporate anyway, but, like, in other industries too is that, like, we we almost justify it in certain industries because of, oh, well, maybe the golden handcuffs. You've maybe you heard that term. Like, maybe they make so much money that walking away would just be so hard, but I think what we also don't realize is there's different forms of currency. Right? Health is our currency, relationships, time, and then money. And so if people are I've seen people just justify it by being like, yeah. Well, I have a certain lifestyle and this. I'm like, that's a that's fine, but we have to understand how this is affecting your body. Your body is eventually gonna break. It's either gonna get sick. There's gonna be pain or some type of ill you know, something like that because we are not meant to sustain these crazy, crazy work hours. Yeah. We we are not robots. We have, we have limitations and and we bring those limitations with us to work. I think there's we can sometimes, get wrapped up in in the idea that we, like, check our humanness at the door when we come to work. And all of a sudden, those, sort of basic needs, and and as well social needs and psychological needs kind of don't matter in the space where we are at work, or they don't need to be addressed there. And I think that's that's really harmful, especially for for many of us who spend a good amount of our waking hours at work. I mean, yeah, have you ever calculated you know, I think sometimes it helps people to even, like, gauge. Like, if you think about how many hours a week you're in your job, right, maybe you hate the job or you're treated like shit, and then you calculate that. Right? So say you're working, like, 8 hour weeks, right, times 52 weeks, right, times how many you know, I'll do the calculation here. It's like we'll say maybe we'll say 70 hour weeks times 52, right, times maybe we'll say 30 years or something. That's, you know, almost a 110000 hours in misery. Yeah. And you're spending more time at work than you are with your family, your friends, with vacations. I mean, even taking time off, I remember it was just like I dreaded it because it just meant I was gonna have to do a shit ton when I came back. Yeah. Or understaffed or things like that. Right. We often don't have, like, systems in place or even for people to need to slow down, which is, again, a normal thing for humans to go through in different phases of their life. But, yeah, I think we just we so often take it for granted that, people will just be able to fulfill their role at the same level, and don't kind of put the supports in place to allow people to to take time or take, you know, support themselves in what they might actually be needing. Yeah. It's it's almost like like a lot of times just being submissive and just kind of dealing with it and just, like, don't don't upset anybody. You know, there's this thing where I just felt like I was an outlier. I was like, wait a second. I'm sorry. Like, I am tired, and I've done a lot of work. And I'm very productive, and you still want more. So it's almost like this perpetuating thing of, like, never it's never enough. And, you know, and then we wonder why we're tired. And if we break this down from, like, a nervous system standpoint you know what I mean? If like, I were actually, I remember specifically leaving the clinic one day and, like, grabbing coffee because I had a cancellation, and I walked to a coffee shop. And I was like, how are all these people here midday? Like, why aren't they running around with their heads cut off like I am? And then that's when I real I was like, oh my god. Is it possible where I don't have to run around all day with my head cut off or be back to back to back with calls or whatever it is? And if you're listening to this and you're like, that's not possible. You have to be working these crazy hours. Well, you're probably burnt out and you probably feel like shit. Like, unless you absolutely love what you're doing, but even if you absolutely love what you're doing, there's still, like, a shift of energy of kind of coming down off of it and, like, enjoying life again. Yeah. I think it's it's a a question of sustainability because I think anybody can do it for a short period of time. Some people can even do it for an an impressive amount of time to me, but it's not when we look at years, decades, that level of, exertion, of using energy, of being activated in, like, a chronic sympathetic nervous system activation is yeah. It it's just not sustainable. Like, as as humans, we at some point, there there is a breaking point. And so I think it's, it's it's just important to start to even if you're in that right now and it feels really hard to get out of it, to start to just think about what could even a slightly more sustainable version of this look like, because, yeah, if you're if you're in that place where you are just running around all day and completely depleted, there's there's a good chance that at some point, something is going to, to change whether you initiate that change or not. Well, something's gotta give. Right? This is usually when we find divorces happen more. We see children acting out. We see a variety of different things because when we have kind of because something's gotta give. Right? We need we need to be kind of full and complete in these different aspects, which is always really hard. Right? Like, sometimes we have to focus more on family because there's a dire emergency, and then sometimes work is a little bit more heavy. I know that there's times I myself have worked extra hours as an entrepreneur just because I gotta get stuff done, but then I plan it out or maybe I have, like, some recovery time or maybe I have that next morning that I can do. And so, you know, we touched a little bit on kind of the nervous system and, like, you know, burnout and how to fix it. How have you seen this affect health? So for me specifically, I think a lot about, like, my relational health as as being one of the things that really suffered, when I was burnt out, and and relational health of, like, people to who are close to me, people in my life, whose, I think, again, it's just a question of, like, how much energy and bandwidth you actually have. And I was spending so much of my bandwidth on work and work related problems and thinking about work and ruminating on work and doing work, all of those things that I didn't have the the capacity to really engage in other relationships to, to be able to, you know, like, engage thoughtfully with with other people and to support them and, anticipate their needs. Like, those things all require energy. And, again, we we just have a limited amount of that. They require regulation of our nervous system, and we we have limits in how much we can actively do that, throughout our day. And so, that that's one that for me really stuck out. But beyond that, we also, you know, in in the research, see more issues with sleep, insomnia, cardiovascular health issues, you know, just, kind of those like, you're, you know, more likely to to deal with things like, late onset diabetes. Like, all of those kind of persistent stress related, conditions are more likely and more likely to come on earlier when we are dealing with just, like, this unabated chronic work stress response. Yeah. I think it's you know, there's a lot of people that I've talked to recently that eat pretty healthy and they exercise, and they're like, why is my a one c rising? So a one c is, like, for people listening, it's it's how they measure your blood sugar over the last 3 months and come up with an average. And I'm like, we're not looking at the nervous system. When if you're chronically excreting, cortisol, that's gonna increase blood sugar because it it's giving you energy if if as if you're running from a bear. And you're not running from a bear. You're just working insane hours and being treated potential you know, even just being even working normal hours and being treated horribly in the workplace. Right? So these burnouts can be a variety of things. Maybe you love your job, but your boss is an ass. Like, there's just so many different aspects of it, but that's a big part that I don't think people look at is, like, well, why is my blood pressure rising? Well, let me put you on blood pressure meds. And I'm, like, okay. Well, what if your nervous system is heightened because you're chronically stressed, and you can throw meds at it and all these things, and you can be healthy, and you can have a 6 pack. I say 6 pack because, apparently, that's what we think is healthy, you know, to have that, and it's like, you can look physically healthy and be very sick inside. And, you know, I didn't realize, like, with I've dealt with, like, chronic health issues on and off most of my life, and I realized so much of it was this energy expenditure of things that just it was just too much and not kind of having this this balance. But I love what you said about relational health because I think this is really important. If you find yourself without friends or your relationships don't stick or these different things, it could be something to consider. Right? Like, I mean, I remember waking up and be like, man, I know a lot of people, but I sure as hell don't have close friends. Yeah. And, again, like, the research around, lack of social support or isolation, number 1, again, the prevalence is, like, extraordinarily high, for the amount of adults I I know specifically in America, but I'm sure it's a wider problem as well, that that report low social support and then the effect that we know that that has on people's, like, physical health and mental health. And, to your point, I think when when people are looking at their their health, you know, figures or pain or onset of disease, there are some things that we, more you know, that that they tend to think about associated with their health, like their diet, like exercise, but something like your the quality of your social interactions and relationships and how bolstered and supported you feel by other people is also, a huge component of your individual health. And, again, I think that's something that, as as a health care field, I don't think we really know how to how to even talk to people about that or how to address that in our patients or in ourselves. Yeah. How do you go up to people be like, I don't have friends. Like, you know, like, there there was a study. I think it's the same when you were talking about and even Gen Zers are actually, like, they're dealing with this more, where a a sign I don't wanna just throw out I'm gonna throw out a random number. I don't know. I think they said something like 80% or something insane of people admitted they didn't have friends. And, you know, it's it's crazy because if so many people are working from home on top of it. Right? And so it's, like, even more isolation, and we're we are literally, like, communal creatures that is literally in our DNA that we need social support. And I think we're in a phase we're in a reality of, like also, it's really hard to get social support because so many people themselves are dealing with burnout, so they don't even have energy to help with anybody else. I've seen that in my friends that are dear, dear friends, and I'm like, where are you? Like, I need you. And they're like, I can't I don't know what's going on. And so there's also that aspect too is, like, we're collectively trying to figure this out. And, but I think it's important to talk about relational health like you were saying. You know? Absolutely. It's yeah. And and in order to to have supportive relationships, you need capacity to pour into other people as well. Like, for, you know, relationships, friendships are reciprocal. And if you are completely drained and all of your energy is going into work, Yeah. It's it's again, you just it it on one hand, relationships and social support is fulfilling, but it's also f you know, it requires effort. It requires time and energy on your part as well. And, yeah, we we unfortunately don't, we don't have a lot of spaces or a lot of guidance collectively on how to, how to kind of sustain and form supportive adult relationships that are, again, sustainable and and in the context of other pressures and other stress, stressors in our lives. Well, I think, you know, we're talking about burnout in the workplace, but I I think this can be across the board. Right? Like, burnout even in relate like, because you can have friendships, but some can be even taking and, like, drain you know, I've heard of energy vampires. And so, like, how to even make how to you know, boundaries wasn't even a thing that I even knew until I started listening to Brene Brown back in 2019, and that's when I was like, oh my god. We have that option? Like, I didn't know that there was this option that I can say, hey. This is what I feels good for me, and this is what I need to do. And, you know, how what if somebody's at work, right, and they're experiencing these symptoms and maybe I've had a lot of people say like, hey. We're in a recession. Like, nobody's hiring. I'm worried I'm gonna get fired. I don't wanna just walk away. So, realistically, a lot of times, we have to meet people where they're at, like, quitting their job tomorrow. I think that would be ideal for everybody and then have this perfect job lined up, but the reality is that's not usually the way that it works. So, you know, what are some small ways people can protect their energy while they're maybe in a toxic workplace or being pushed around at work? Like, what are some things you can mention to them that they can even just change tomorrow? I would say the first thing that I found really helpful, in starting to set boundaries with work is to start small. So if if, like, saying no to your boss feels really hard and really daunting, start with start with something that feels less intense. Start with a coworker. Start with a client, a relationship that feels, again, a little bit less, like like, less intense to to say no in the context of. And then the other thing I would say is, like, as you are as you're taking requests from people, which we all are throughout our day, requests that are big and small, it's what what the idea with boundaries is that you are bringing an awareness to your actual capacity in that moment of the request. And you are doing a very brief analysis of, like, is is this am I responsible for this? Is, you know, is this something that someone else can do? Can I give them a direction rather than actually doing this for them? Like, what are actually my options to respond here? And then and doing your best to pick the one that most honors your responsibilities and your capacity and the person who's making the request. It's a practice. It is very much a a practice, a trial and error, and it's uncomfortable, especially if it's not something you're used to. It can, sometimes not work. Like, you can try to say no to something, and you by the end of the conversation, you found that you said you you kind of said yes to it. And I think just having a lot of, like, patience and grace for yourself as you, as you start to practice. Again, just it can be as small as saying no to a little request that seems simple, but maybe it's during your lunch break or, maybe it's just something that is that is not your responsibility. And normally, you would just say, okay. Yeah. I can help you with that. But but maybe you, again, pause and just say, you know, like, I don't actually need to do that. I I don't have endless capacity here, and this is something that I can, defer to somebody else or or whatever. So I would say those are you know, start with something small. Get ready for a little bit of discomfort. Get ready for it to be messy. And and, just a lot of sort of, grace for yourself as you are going through that process. I think part of burnout is is this, like, really intense judgment of ourselves and, that can really get in the way, I think, of people, especially if they are not in the current practice of of doing boundaries of actually getting started. Well, I think, like, so many people that struggle with this or tend to be people where they're people pleasers and or they're people pleasers or perfectionists. And, usually, those are deeply rooted in some sort of unprocessed trauma of feeling like, oh, if I say no to some for the people pleaser, if I say no, this ever you know, I don't want anyone to hate me because my self worth is based on how much people like me. Right? There's, like, this subconscious thing. I say that because I'm a recovering people pleaser. And then there's the perfectionist who I'm also tend to kinda fall into that quarter, that, bucket too, but that's also okay. Well, what why does this have to be so perfect? It's not it's it's a product of what I've done, but it's not a reflection of who I am as a human. So I can separate those 2 and kinda look at it, but the I feel like those are the 2 types of people that really kind of, you know it it tends to be, you know, in those situations. And so when we're we're sticking up for our boundaries and we're saying stuff, it can be incredibly uncomfortable. And, it can even be, you know, like you were just saying, start small. It can be something as simple as, you know, I know a lot of people that use Slack or, you know, email at work because they're constantly it's like, maybe you don't have to respond right that second to that email. Maybe you don't even have to tell anybody anything. Like, maybe it's just your mindset of, like, I don't have to answer and jump and do this right now because then what happens is that's almost expected after that. Right. Right. And I think that's that's the other pieces. If you're not if you if this is something new, it's pretty likely that people are going to have some kind of reaction to the change if you are someone who always responded right away or who responds at midnight to an email. And now all of a sudden, it's different. I I would expect some kind of response from that. And I think, an important thing with boundaries is that I encourage people to implement in their work, especially is, like, you don't owe people an extensive explanation for why you're a human with limited needs and a limited or or a limited capacity. Excuse me. Like, saying I'm not available or saying I don't have, I can't accommodate that right now is is a full explanation, or or, again, saying no or delaying a response or any of those things. I think I think people struggle with thinking boundaries means they're rude. You can be incredibly nice and set a boundary. Like, you know, if somebody is, you know, at work and telling you to do something that isn't your job, you don't have to say this isn't my job. You do it. Like, then you're gonna it's also like a softness in how we say it too. There's an art a little bit to it. Right? Because we're also dealing with humans with their own stuff where you also don't wanna tiptoe around what people say you know, people either. But, yeah, so it's more of like, hey. You know, I'm not available, like or, you know, I don't yeah. Like you said, I don't have the ability to do this by that time. This is more real. You know? This is when I can do that. So, you know, if you I I think it's hard to not give an explanation when you first start practicing this, though, too. Yeah. And that's fine. And, like, again, it doesn't have to be perfect. Yeah. If you need to explain it a little bit, or, you know, or or just say what's what changed and what's different, like, that's fine. Yeah. I also I think it's I, for me, have found it really helpful to think about boundaries as, like, we're not doing this to punish other people or to put them in their place or, like, because they're doing something wrong. We're setting boundaries in order to have a more sustainable work life, number 1, and also healthier relationships with the people we're working with. And for me, I found that really helpful because I also struggled with that impulse of, like, I don't wanna be mean. Like, they have needs too, and their needs are just as important as mine or more important than mine. And, I think that that was something that kind of helped me reframe it a little bit. It was like, this is ultimately not about controlling other people. It's about, just honoring our own human, capacity. Yeah. Totally. I think it's, yeah, it's not about anybody else. It's about filling up your own cup. And I think in health care, it can be hard because people be like, well, they need our help. And, you know, I know somebody who is driving, like, 45 minutes to do this thing that's almost free just to kinda help somebody with their stuff that they're going through, but then they're coming back a little exhausted, not able to show up for their kids, or maybe they're just cranky and tired and not sleeping, whatever it is. It's like, okay. But so your body's taking it out in a different way. And so it's hard, I think, sometimes in health care because we're like, well, we wanna help everybody. That's why we got into this profession, but, also, we can't help anybody if we're not helping ourselves. And so it's undoing some of that pattern of like, hey. I don't wanna hurt anybody else, but you're ultimately hurting yourself in the end. But I think, like, some sometimes people don't even know that they're burnt out. And, like, you know, we talked about, like, some health conditions that can arise from that, but, also, like, the other thing is anxiety, irritability, like, you know, adding on to your inability to sleep and things like that. And if you're finding yourself, you're on edge all the time, you know, this might be something to really consider, especially if, you know, there's no other conditions going on that could be affecting. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that irritability, that anxiety are big ones. I've always said, like, like, it's the feeling that, like, I'm not fully present when I'm at work, but also I, like, can't really shut off after work, was a big like, I was just, like, always sort of in this half on, half off space that was, again, like, just no sense of recovery or relief even after a weekend, even after vacation. For me, it is a sign of burnout. I think you don't need to be, like, on the verge of, you know, absolutely needing to quit your job tomorrow to have some degree of burnout affecting, your life, your health, your the quality of your relationships, all those things. Yeah. I can tell even being self employed. I can tell, like, my things of me being set off and I'm burning out is, like, I get, like, I get more annoyed on the road and I honk more. I'm like, oh, okay. When did I become a honker here? Or, yeah, having trouble just kind of being present like you were saying, just kind of being present with people, and my mind just kinda starting to go off and just feeling like this. Like, just feeling like I can't keep up. There's just so much going on. I gotta keep going. Oh my gosh. If I stop, then and I'm like, nobody else is telling me to do I'm literally the boss of myself. So there's also, like some of you might be in a great workplace, and it's it's look at the thumbs up that just popped up on the screen. I don't know how those bubbles pop up, by the way. They're just random. I have no idea. So, yeah, like, some of it can also be our own mindset around work too, you know, that is causing our own burnout. And not to, like, shame people doing that. It's just that's just what I've done. I mean, I've been a business owner for 6 years, and I catch myself going in and out of this. And it has actually been the most crucial factor to me maintaining my health. Like, you know, it because because when I'm burnt out, I wanna eat like crap. Mhmm. I just wanna veg out, you know, veg out what I mean. Like, watch some shows and just do nothing and yada yada, and I'm just that's all I would do. And I'm like, okay. This isn't it's being aware of it, I think, because we'll go in ebbs and flows of burnout in different aspects, but also bringing it to our attention. Like, hey. This is also something really important that we need to talk about. Absolutely. And I think to to that point, like, starting to draw the threads between, between our experience of work or experience of just our day to day life and other health behaviors. Because I'll see, you know, people who are struggling with burnout, you know, deciding, okay, I'm I'm gonna start to exercise or I'm gonna start to, eat better or something. And it's really hard because they're, they're still in this kind of persistent stress response, and and that none of the the factors that contribute to that are being addressed. And so that like, whatever it is, the impulse to reach for the the processed snacks or whatever is is there and it's strong, because because these things all work together. So I think to your point, just starting to notice those threads in your experience and your behavior, and how you kinda might make a a more holistic approach to, to trying to, again, like, address address things or move in a different direction. Yeah. I noticed, like, when I when my nervous system is dysregulated or I'm stressed out, I crave, gosh, pizza. I crave sweets, and that's when I know that's a sign that I use as, oh, okay. I need to adjust something. I need to recalibrate. Right? And I think our body their bodies give us messages. And if we listen to the messages and we adjust, then great. Because when we don't listen and we just keep plowing through life and just burning out in every aspect of our lives, I mean, you could take you could go to the best specialist in the world and try to figure out what's going on, but, ultimately, it's it's a lifestyle shift. And it's so much like about I think so much of it is doing inner work too and, like, also like, hey. How can I stick up for myself? How can I overcome these people pleasing, things? And I think for me, so much of recovering from people pleasing is realizing that if people were upset when I implemented a boundary, that's because they benefited from me losing myself. And I actually don't care what that person thinks if anymore, if that was their intention, but I didn't know that when I first started. But you start realizing your people might get mad, you know, and and people might get upset, but, ultimately, I truly believe when you do things with a kind heart and you do things for your best self and for you to live an abundant lifestyle and, like, with kindness to yourself, I truly believe things end up working out in the end. I mean, it it's bumpy there for a while, but it's you know, you're you're staking your ground and sticking up for yourself and just noticing how that feels in your body when you're not being pushed around. Yeah. Yeah. That is a that's a huge piece again. And and and noticing how it feels when and the effects when when you do kind of, go past your limits or or say yes to something you wish you said no to. I think, again, just that the awareness piece is is such a big first step. And, again, realizing that any sort of changes you're going to be trying to make, you're you are going to again, you're a human. You have these social needs. And especially if you're introducing, more discomfort in the form of trying to make some changes, like, you are absolutely going to need that support. And if you're if you're struggling to make changes, that is, I think, one of the biggest, components that is worth, trying to address in some form, whether that's finding a therapist or finding a coach or just starting to reach out to your your friends or reach out to connections and trying to build those connections, can be really, really supportive if you are, if you're trying to to do hard things like like say no and, like, overcome, you know, sort of behavior habits that have come from, just kind of a a history of, you know, how you've learned to to make it this far in the world. Well, I think one of, the explanations that I really liked about, like, understanding kind of discomfort and, like, what that actually means for growth. And I don't know if you've heard of the growth edge. And, basically, like, just for people listening is like, okay. Maybe we stay in this small. If you think about, like, a little circle, right, that's your comfort. And then the outer outer edge, right, your growth where you wanna be is like a massive circle around it. To go to this bigger circle, right, that would be such a massive change for our nervous system that could cause complete dysregulation and just be overload. Right? And, kinda what to what you were saying before is start small. And so you kind of push when you push up against that growth edge, you're gonna feel a little bit of anxiety. You're likely gonna feel a little bit of discomfort in your body. And then you support your body and you kinda come back to that comfort. Right? Come back to the comfort. Come back to the things that calm your nervous system, whether it's exercise, breath work, community, whatever it is. And then when you need to push up again, you kinda go up again and then recover. Right? If we go to these drastic extremes, I think that's when things get a lot more scary because we're like, oh my god. I don't wanna feel that much discomfort. So start small. Get your body used to that. Even I've even will tell people too just visualizing, saying no, getting your nervous system used to it. Yeah. Absolutely. Or or like scripting things if you're if you're it's hard to imagine it, just writing down, you know, what you might say in the situation or what what you expect from it, what you expect to feel from it, kind of preparing yourself in that way. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. But I agree. A comfort zone is is important. It's just as important as as pushing into discomfort is also having that that kind of home, that safe safe space, so to speak, to restore yourself. Yeah. I find more people would rather feel the discomfort ongoing, you know, and just like, let me just not deal with it. Let me just kinda suppress it. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And it's like, well, it's really not over time, but, you know, you kind of learn and try not to shame yourself like you were saying as you might realize later, why did I say yes to this? Be gentle with yourself. Right? Like, you're learning where these are new concepts that haven't been talked about very often or at all. You know? So I'm a firm believer that health is beyond diet and exercise and and and fulfillment in your work and feeling seen and heard in basically all aspects of your life. And so I believe that true health is a lot of showing up authentically as yourself, and we've kinda touched on this a little bit, you know, earlier here, but, like, what are your thoughts on this and maybe how it affects burnout in in the workplace or life? Yeah. I think, again, I don't I I mean, I'm sure we could trace this back from where to where it came from. But I think some point along the way, we learned that, like, it is not professional to bring your full human self to work. And I think that a lot of people have internalized that message and and see that being kind of played out around them and are, you know, trying to trying to embody something that is like a professional in their space that is not that really requires them to to make themselves smaller. And, obviously, on one hand, we're not trying to go to work and be completely unfiltered and, you know, completely unregulated and, you know, just our full, you know, exposed messy selves. Like, that's their, you know, their their own dis line. Yeah. There's a line and there's discernment. Right? Yeah. But on the other hand, it's, it's I think, again, I you are spending so much time at this space for for you to really have to, like, suppress your, who you are is going to have negative impacts because that's exhausting. It's it's really exhausting to try to shape shift yourself, for other people's expectations or for a certain a certain image. And it's, again, true in all aspects of life. I think people particularly it's particularly normalized in the workspace of, like, not not being authentic is, again, rewarded if it's closer to some some version of conformity. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. If you don't conform, then you're an outlier. When you're an outlier, you get pushed out. And what is the scariest thing that we can be? We can be isolated. Well, we're already becoming isolated because we're burning out, so it's like, you know, it's this circle that just kind of never ending. But, no, I think what we talked about today just kind of, you know, in summary of a lot of what we discussed is recognizing signs of burnout. That can be high blood pressure, that can be early onset diabetes, that can be anxiety, depression, irritability, a variety of things. A lot of times, these things are not looked at when we're looking at health and understanding what's going on and, you know, looking at other things that are affected by work, not just financially, but also relationships, time, your health, plus then we look at, you know, work and things like that and how that comes into play. And, you know, one of the other things that we had talked about is, like, with boundaries, like setting up small boundaries first. You're gonna come up with some resistance, support your body after, notice that discomfort, that discomfort means growth. If you feel you're chronically overwhelmed, it could be that I personally think it could be that growth edge. Maybe we pushed it too far, and then we're trying to kind of reregulate. So it's not uncommon to kind of feel that dysregulation after that. And then, you know, like we were just saying, is being able to kind of show up as a human. Right? Because we're we are, and we have to be able to be ourselves as well with discernment. Right? We don't need to, like, show up and, like, let everybody you know, everybody's got shit they're dealing with too. Right? So there's there's, a line with that, but also respecting the humanness in in us and community. And, yeah, is there anything else that you wanted to kinda bring up based on burnout in the workplace? I think the just the last thing that I would add is to just go back to what we said at the beginning, which is that if you are feel if you relate to what we have talked about in this episode, like, if you have noticed that irritability or you've noticed, you know, like, more more conflict in your life or just, again, health effects, like, it can really feel like you are the problem. And this is a this is a very big widespread problem. You it is not like a a issue with who you are, or or like something you are doing wrong. I think that is, just a really, I think, a really, really important message. Like, even though we're talking about things that you can do to support yourself, I think it's also important to realize that, you know, you're not alone and that ultimately what we need is is like wider spread changes to the way that we set up our our work environments and our lived environments that is more supportive of people and that is not, normalizing and celebrating this sort of, like, perpetual overwork. And so I think I would just, again, reemphasize that. You are not alone. Like, you are not a problem. And and and there is also hope, and there are things that you can do to to support yourself. Yeah. I agree. It's like you're not the problem. You you're asking for support. If you're gaslit, I've had that done too. It's like that's on them. Right? And just keep going. If you feel like you don't have support or you don't have a community and then work is stressful, keep going. There are good people out there that are people that are doing this work. It's becoming more and more evident that people are. It just takes time to kind of find those workspaces and those people in those communities. So do you, how can people find you and, you know, yeah, if you wanna let everybody know where they can reach you. Yeah. So I am, Meredith Grossman PT on Instagram, and I have a website on as well that is health care unraveled.com, and you can find me there. Great. And then what would you say, like, your main services that you offer for, burnout so people don't want what to look for? Yeah. So right now, I have been running a, a program called burnout masters. I just wrapped up the second, sort of, cohort of it. Going into the new year, I'm looking to do some more, kind of smaller scale webinars around burnout, specifically in health care. And so, you can follow me on Instagram and look out for notifications about that stuff coming up. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Meredith. This has been awesome. I'm excited to share this with everyone. Thank you for having me on.