Sarah Morris: Signs of ADHD, creating a meaningful life, and more | GYC Podcast E272
Dec 21, 2023Season 5Episode 272
Sarah Morris, Clinical Psychologist and Director at Solid Rock Psychology
In this episode, clinical psychologist Sarah Morris discusses the increase in awareness and effectiveness of treatments for people with ADHD.
We explore the challenges of sustaining attention and structuring one's day. The importance of recognising ADHD as a difference rather than a brokenness, and the power of having mentors in life.
Tune in to gain valuable insights on managing work and life with ADHD.
Quotes
"ADHD is part of the normal spectrum of society, the same as height."
"There's something about ADHD that can often be a little bit of an advantage where we seek out these high stimulus environments because there's a little bit of motivation in that stimulus."
"I really want to help people... make those changes in how they're responding to the tricky stuff that shows up within us... so that we can be moving towards what actually really matters in our life."
"I think that sometimes my ADHD actually kind of is a little bit of a strength here because it's like, I enjoy the novelty of shifting roles... I actually really thrive on that variety of what my week looks like."
"I think business is a really great canvas for us to express that creativity and bring to life a vision that we have, say, for our client's experience and our team's experience, which is pretty cool"
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
01:50 What is ADHD?
04:12 How to manage ADHD
06:54 How to 'switch gears' when you need to focus
09:51 Tips for supporting team with ADHD, as a clinic owner
15:05 Structuring for a productive day
17:12 Living and working with purpose and meaning
19:30 What to do when you're burned out as a clinic owner
23:38 Managing your own ADHD as a clinic owner
25:43 Managing competing demands as a business owner
28:10 The duality of ADHD
31:19 Navigating business ownership with serving clients
In this episode, clinical psychologist Sarah Morris discusses the increase in awareness and effectiveness of treatments for people with ADHD.
We explore the challenges of sustaining attention and structuring one's day. The importance of recognising ADHD as a difference rather than a brokenness, and the power of having mentors in life.
Tune in to gain valuable insights on managing work and life with ADHD.
Quotes
"ADHD is part of the normal spectrum of society, the same as height."
"There's something about ADHD that can often be a little bit of an advantage where we seek out these high stimulus environments because there's a little bit of motivation in that stimulus."
"I really want to help people... make those changes in how they're responding to the tricky stuff that shows up within us... so that we can be moving towards what actually really matters in our life."
"I think that sometimes my ADHD actually kind of is a little bit of a strength here because it's like, I enjoy the novelty of shifting roles... I actually really thrive on that variety of what my week looks like."
"I think business is a really great canvas for us to express that creativity and bring to life a vision that we have, say, for our client's experience and our team's experience, which is pretty cool"
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
01:50 What is ADHD?
04:12 How to manage ADHD
06:54 How to 'switch gears' when you need to focus
09:51 Tips for supporting team with ADHD, as a clinic owner
15:05 Structuring for a productive day
17:12 Living and working with purpose and meaning
19:30 What to do when you're burned out as a clinic owner
23:38 Managing your own ADHD as a clinic owner
25:43 Managing competing demands as a business owner
28:10 The duality of ADHD
31:19 Navigating business ownership with serving clients
Watch on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@clinicmastery
We appreciate your support and feedback!
There's been a real surge in awareness, community awareness. The treatment is just so effective. You know, that difficulty with sustaining attention on the boring stuff. How do I structure my day? And there can be something quite liberating about going, oh, I'm not broken. There's actually just a difference here. power of mentors, of coaches, of supports in life. But, you know, that idea of keeping the client at the centre. This isn't just some echo chamber of, oh, everything's great, because that doesn't help me actually grow or develop. And I think really important for clinic owners with ADHD as well, just to know themselves and to know Welcome to the Grow Your Clinic podcast. My name is Ben Lynch. In this episode, I speak with Sarah Morris, a clinical psychologist and clinic owner in Melbourne, Australia. We start the conversation talking about ADHD, how it's affected Sarah and her family, and has become a passion area in her clinical practice. What's interesting is Sarah framed it as a strength. We also discuss the other side of it, which is all the hardships, adversity, the support that's required in order to function and live a rich, full, meaningful life. But Sarah's take on how it could be a strength really caught my attention and we explored that further. We also discussed family, running a business, transitioning from clinical care to being a business owner and reconciling how we do those things and ultimately building a clinic for good. Let's pick up the conversation where we start with ADHD and what you can do if you're experiencing this or if you know someone who's experiencing this. So in the conversation between you, me and Jack O'Brien, you mentioned that you have ADHD, you come from a family who have ADHD, and this is an area now clinically where you serve a number of people with ADHD. I hear a lot of clinic owners in the community say, that's my ADHD. I wonder if some of them are clinically diagnosed or maybe just flippantly saying that, but can you just create some clarity for, especially the non-psychs, what is ADHD? How do you come to know whether you've actually got that? And what are some of the characteristics of it? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think there's been a real surge in awareness, community awareness about ADHD, especially in recent years, and I think there's a few reasons for that. I think COVID was this massive experience where Some people found that, oh goodness, like I actually now have the freedom to kind of let my legs jiggle around in meetings, because it's on zoom and nobody's distracted by my jiggly legs, you know, so finding almost this freedom that came with COVID. For other people, it was like, oh gee, like I can't get stuff done when I have just me and a computer and no stimulus around me. Like it's really hard to kickstart things. So this massive shift in how we worked during that COVID era, I think was a real catalyst for people who have maybe experienced things their whole life, suddenly going, wait up, what's going on here? Combined with that, a lot of ADHD groups, so I'm part of a group called the Australian ADHD Professionals Association. It's a marvellous group of professionals like psychiatrists, psychologists, GPs, OTs, and also community, like, you know, consumer advocates, like ADHD coaches, And there's been a lot of advocacy around ADHD because it's actually a really important area. There's so much research and actually the treatment is just so effective. So it's like, mate, if somebody's got ADHD, I want to help them figure that out and I want to help them get the support that they can access. Yeah. So what are some of those things that people can do? Obviously, everyone's going to be a unique case, but what are some of the typical things that you would use to help someone manage? Yeah. So look, I mean, we have to just start with medication. There's decades of research behind this that actually ADHD medication is extremely effective at treating those core symptoms. So I think you mentioned before, like, you know, what does it look like? Well, it can look like the jiggly legs, you know, it can look like, oh, I just, I think I'll go and just do another drink break or, you know, that difficulty with sustaining attention on the boring stuff. I mean, Hyperfocus is the opposite of that, right? There's this lovely hyperfocus that a lot of ADHDers talk about, which is once they get into a zone, oh man, just watch them go. But that, you know, when it's the boring stuff, the administration stuff, that can be really hard to sustain that attention, to keep going, or even to kick starting and get started. You know, the overwhelm of where do I actually start this complex, you know, admin issue. That's a bit of an executive functioning challenge that can be common in ADHD. So ADHD is this pattern, it's a neurodevelopmental thing, meaning people are born like this, right? It's a biologically wired thing. ADHD runs in families, same as height. It's about the same genetic loading as height. Right. So I, my dad's tall, I'm pretty tall, uh, you know, just cause dad's tall doesn't mean I'm going to be tall, but it does increase the likelihood. Right. Yeah. Uh, similar to ADHD. Um, so, uh, yeah, so there's these sort of patterns of, of challenges around sort of sustaining attention around kind of organization, uh, and sometimes also those more hyperactive, impulsive things of like, my mind just goes a mile a minute, a thousand tabs open at once kind of thing. So it can be a real spectrum of experiences. But I guess just to say ADHD is part of the normal spectrum of society, the same as height. I'm a reasonably tall person. Most of the time, that's actually kind of not even a big deal. Sometimes when I hop on a budget airline, it's kind of a big deal. It's not too fun. Maybe most of the time it's okay, but then I find myself in certain situations with certain challenges and it's like, oh, okay, this actually becomes a bit problematic for me here. And you spoke there to the overwhelm that can come with maybe many competing demands for our attention, especially as business owners, like team member, it's a client, it's your own caseload, and a mix of all of those things all at once, regularly. Yeah. Practically, how do you support, are there patterns of behavior that you help people install to be able to manage those competing things for your attention to get into that zone, as you said? How can people kind of switch gears or take control? Hmm. I think that's a great question, Ben. Um, yeah, so, you know, definitely, uh, you know, if somebody is suspecting they have ADHD getting that diagnosis, so that medication can be part of it, but absolutely there are so many other kinds of strategies that we can be doing to really work with us, um, to work with the strengths and also manage those challenges. Um, and you know, I mean, even just to say that sometimes, being in a chaotic environment is a space in which an ADHDer can sometimes thrive. There's all these memes out there about, you know, like kind of stand back folks, like I was born for this and I mean really I would love to see just how many ADHDers are in high chaos environments like you know, being doctors in the emergency department, you know, or being entrepreneurial business owners who are trying to juggle a thousand things. There's something about ADHD that can often be a little bit of an advantage where we seek out these high stimulus environments because there's a little bit of motivation in that stimulus. So when we think about the way that an ADHD brain kind of gets lit up and gets active, it's gonna be a little bit different to say a neurotypical brain, right? Where rather than sort of being motivated by, oh, what's most important, there might be a lot more motivation about what's most urgent. So urgency is a really big driver. that night before the assignment is due, man, everything sort of kicks in. So urgency, but also novelty. And that's where I think, you know, even as business owners, there can often be a lot of novelty, like you're having to solve a new complex problem, and that novelty can actually be quite motivating. So I think ADHD can bring certain advantages But then we need to think about what do we do with the challenges? How do we manage when we kind of get these stuck points? And I think there's a few things we can consider there. Yeah. What are some of those things? Because if not a clinic owner who's listening in, maybe they have a team member that has ADHD and the clinic owner is wondering, how do I support this person to really thrive in their role? When I'm maybe not a psychologist, I'm an osteopath or a physiotherapist, this is not my background at all, but I really want to support them without it being kind of this excuse or this thing that we have to sort of squash or bury, we want to allow room for it. How do you help a clinic owner that's trying to support a team member in this space, especially when you want to support them to thrive and performance manage and make sure they're doing a good job? What are some of the things that we can do as clinic owners to be able to support team members who have ADHD? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think that, yeah, and I think that this actually speaks sort of to, you know, what is a good team, you know, and, and I think having you know, being able to appreciate the kinds of strengths that come, you know, with ADHD. There's a fun sort of, you know, way of describing this in the community, which is like, you know, how neuro-spicy are you, right? You know, but it's this fun sort of take on this idea of, yeah, like, as in, I bring a little bit of pep, I bring a little bit of spice, As a clinic owner, I think wanting to make sure that the person has some supports in place, like I think that the work that a psychologist can do, especially if they've got ADHD expertise or an ADHD coach can do, I think that that's helpful because they're going to work with that individual with their individual strengths and weaknesses. But I think there's something more broad here, both for the ADHD-er as well as for others around, which has to do with kind of self-acceptance and self-compassion. So I think that there is something very liberating often for adults who discover that this pattern throughout their whole life actually has a name, ADHD, and there can be something quite liberating about going, oh, I'm not broken. There's actually just a difference here. You know, I think about, you know, for example, I mean, I actually wrote a whole doctorate thesis without my ADHD diagnosis and medication. And it's possible, but it kind of happened for a majority of it. It happened in 15 minute increments. Right. So you're writing in 15 minute increments. Got it. Yeah. Then there would be moments where I would get really into it and there would be this lovely hyper focus sort of experience. But, you know, I think for a lot of people looking at somebody who's doing like, you know, that PhD level work, they would have some assumptions about, oh, you must be somebody who can just sit at a computer and stay there and kind of just power through a whole day. It's like, no, like, and it's okay to find a different pathway for how you do things. So I would like set myself little timers and use like all sorts of creative motivational ways. Oh, how many words can I smash out in the next 15 minutes? Let's see. I'd be sort of, and even if you notice there, there's a kind of a voice I'm using on myself there, which, sounds a lot more like a kind coach than a harsh critic. So there's a few things here. One is this practical stuff, but another is that, you know, when we think about what is actually motivating internally, how do we speak to ourself? And if we are able to kind of take on that kind coach voice, like, you've got this girl, give it a go. Come on, what can you pull off in 15 minutes? Show us what you got, right? This kind coaching voice, as opposed to, oh, you like, how can you not be, you know, just that pulling down kind of voice? I mean, I think across the spectrum of all humans, we do better under a kind coaching voice. And yet often when we're trying to motivate ourselves, we notice the voice sounds a lot more like a harsh critic. So even the skills there around, how do I nurture that kind of voice can be really powerful in, in, in helping facilitate action and change. And so it also makes me think about a clinic owner, what kind of voice are they, what kind of culture are they bringing that sort of builds that sort of thing where there's sort of room for different kinds of ways of getting stuff done, as well as a voice that has this real kind of kindness and acceptance, but also kind of motivation. Yeah, it's a really great point around the kindness voice and can so often empathize with the clinic owner as in this example of being stress, managing a whole bunch of stuff and wondering why, you know, come on, just get the job done, giving you the resources. So to be able to just take on that kindness voice is a really practical thing. It sounds like as well, novelty is a key element to making that task more engaging, even if it's in short sprints. Yeah, absolutely can be. I guess another thing, and this is where somebody having like, you know, a psychologist that they're working with or a coach that they're working with, they can learn more about themselves. So for example, realizing, you know what I do best in the morning, like that is when my brain is most switched on. That's when I do best. And even thinking about, okay, so how do I structure my day? in terms of like when I'm writing notes, when I'm seeing clients, when I'm trying to do administrative things, how do I actually structure that day? You know, I, yeah, as an example, like I can get overwhelmed by emails. And so for me, it's actually being deliberate about, I'm not gonna try to do that when my brain is fuzzy, you know, later at night or something. This is important enough that I need to plug it in early in the day and kind of creating space for things. So that sort of self-knowledge, figuring out how to work with yourself, I think these are really, yeah, this is all that unique personal journey. And I think really important for clinic owners with ADHD as well, just to know themselves and to know, okay, what are the tasks that actually I kind of get bogged down in or that I find it hard to initiate? So what can I do in terms of shaping my day to get that stuff done, to make sure it's not always on the back burner? It's a great distinction. I think I see a lot of clinic owners where just this self-reflection exercise would be so valuable to just pause for a moment and think about some of these questions themselves, obviously seek out the relevant professional help. but to be able to figure out what are the moments where they get bogged down, what are the moments and things they do to create flow. You speak about creating a rich, full, meaningful life, which resonates a lot. What does that mean? I saw that on your website and you've spoken about it before in other episodes. What does that mean and how do we come to creating a rich, full, meaningful life? Oh, look, I think that this is the heartbeat behind what I am trying to do as a psychologist. I really want to help people to be able to I guess, make those changes in their life, make those changes in how they're responding to the tricky stuff that shows up within us, you know, the difficult thoughts, the difficult kind of feelings that can show up so that we can actually be moving towards what actually really matters in our life. I noticed this is quite aligned with sort of the clinic mastery sort of perspective on things too, right? It's that it's holding that bigger picture, almost a very values-based sort of framework in mind. And but recognising that the path to a rich, full and meaningful life can be really challenging and fraught. And we need to figure out ways, skills, sometimes even breaking things down, like how do I actually break down this complex sort of pathway so that I can actually be moving towards what matters to me? I mean, this is my heartbeat more broadly, but also with, you know, I see a lot of clients with ADHD, lots of amazing professionals with ADHD. I love supporting them. It's also the heartbeat behind my personal life. how do I move towards what really matters? Yeah. you mentioned there, it's, I guess, a version of, it's not always rainbows and butterflies, there's adversity, there's challenges, there's moments where I certainly see a lot of clinic owners wanting to throw the towel in, whether that means sell an exit, like walk out, literally got a couple of conversations going at the moment. They're just exhausted, they're over it. And in those moments, I know you probably see a lot of it clinically, where people are at a really maybe a trough, some version of a down moment and are needing support from others. What are some of the recommendations you have for people who are going through a tough spot at the moment? We know COVID was obviously really challenging for a lot. I'm just anecdotally seeing a lot of, say, clinic owners in the community. It's like they've gotten past that. They've held it all together. And now I'm seeing a lot of people just go, I'm done. I'm exhausted. I've held it together for a couple of years now. This is it. In those moments, what are some things that a clinic owner could be doing to work through that situation? Yeah, look, I think that makes so much sense. And I just want to like, I don't know, like my heart, my heart is with this, right? Because it's really easy to feel those feelings, especially when you feel like you've just been slogging away for a really long time. And I do think this in part comes down to no man is an island. Like we actually, we need community and we need others around us. You know, thinking about the power of mentors, of coaches, of supports in life. I just think about like the way in which, for example, clinic mastery can be kind of providing that kind of real business side coaching. I think that that's a really powerful thing because I think that maybe sometimes burnout can happen with clinic owners because actually there's just so much we don't know. Like I studied to become a psychologist. There was no kind of business training in that. And then you sort of find yourself in you know, a complex landscape where you're trying to really like help and support and nurture your clients and then meanwhile you're having to make other decisions that you've actually never received any kind of real teaching around. But beyond business, it's also thinking about, OK, so if you're noticing your mental health might be kind of, you know, yeah, sort of the shine of life is dimming a little bit. I mean, you know, or, yeah, so you're not able to enjoy things as much. Your mood is sort of shifted a bit or you're noticing anxiety is kind of a little bit bigger than what it normally is. I mean, these are these, you know, or sleep is a little bit out of whack. Maybe eating's a little bit out of whack. you know, brain fog kind of happening a bit more. These are little, little signposts, hey, I'm needing a bit of extra support. And as a psychologist, I'm like, let me know. yeah like let's get let's get some support um yeah and of course I'm just sort of speaking general advice here um and I think also then personally thinking about you know what's happening in my social world right now what is the balance of how much I'm giving out and how much I'm actually being fed or being cared for. How are my friendships going? Am I getting to walk around the block with my mate anymore or has that sort of dropped off? I'm sort of speaking to myself there. It's a little note to self I need to get back, coming back in. So it's really easy for life to get a bit out of whack It's a very human experience, you know, and I think it's little signposts. Ah, I need to do some tweaks. I need a little bit of extra support here. The tweaks is a great point. I've heard you talk about taking our car to the mechanic or fueling up the gas to keep things going. How do you do that? Personally, you're a psychologist. You understand the brain, how it works, and you're in business. You're a business owner as well. Does that mean you're just self-correcting and working on yourself all the time? Or do you have people that you connect with and reach out to? Obviously, you're part of the Clinic Mastery community, but how do you go about taking care of yourself and surrounding yourself with that support? Yeah, look, I am a fellow journeyer. I am in this road of learning and figuring stuff out and developing. For me personally, I have got some amazing people in my life, amazing long-term friends, I was thinking about, yeah, personal mentor, who I've known since I was a teenager, and it's sort of gone from mentorship into more like friendship, but it's just a very life-giving relationship. Friends that are, yeah, where I feel like I can be very much myself with. I mean, that's really powerful for me. I've got a beautiful family and lovely husband, and that's very life-giving. Yeah, I've noticed lately just really enjoying walking our families, pondering maybe getting a little bit more into hiking as a bit of a shared activity. But I have to say, I'm still on a journey, you know, figuring out that balance of how do I how do I find ways in which I can effectively, you know, just really bring my whole self to my work and really care for my clients really wholeheartedly. And then also finding ways to then switch off, you know, and kind of decompress. And that's, I'm still on that journey as well. So yeah. The experience of juggling many balls or wearing many hats, however you want to put it, being a professional, a business owner, running a family as well, how have you been able to navigate wearing those many different hats? For the ADHDers out there, I wanna say, guys, it can be this great little thing. I think that part of, there was a beautiful study that was done on ADHD strengths. And some of the top ones that came out, one of them was creativity, which I think, yeah, a lot of ADHDers go, yeah, that rings true. But another one, really interestingly, was impulsivity. framed as a strength. And I do think about this, it's the bravery side of impulsivity, right? It's that readiness to like, oh yeah, I'll jump in, I'll try that out. And I think that that has actually been helpful for me as I wear these hats of being wife, being mom, being clinic owner, being clinician as a clinical psychologist, and then also being supervisor, trying to train up and support my team in honing their skills. along with manager, you know, like, yeah, so that role of like, how do I nurture this amazing team that I've got? And I do have quite an amazing team. And even how do I even create a culture that is attractive that new clinicians might say, yeah, that's actually where I want to work. Like, that's the kind of place that really I know I'm going to be valued and cared for and nurtured in my development, not only as a clinician, but as a whole person. Yeah, so I think that sometimes I think that sometimes my ADHD actually kind of is a little bit of a strength here because it's like, I enjoy the novelty of shifting roles. I don't mind juggling lots of things. I can get overwhelmed, but I think that actually has been something that has been really fun about what I do. I actually really thrive on that variety of what my week looks like. I love the framing, the shift in framing towards strength. Just anecdotally hearing, you know, clinic owners in the community maybe think negatively about the ADHD diagnosis that they have, or just if they're using that term to describe how they're feeling at the moment, if they haven't actually been diagnosed. they'll see it typically or talk about it in a negative sense. And so I really like that framing of, you know, this can be quite a strength, my ability to embrace variety and impulsivity and creativity as well. And then there might be something there, Ben, even about like kind of almost holding them both at a time, like that there is strength in ADHD. And I guess I don't want to downplay, though, you know, the reason why it is a diagnosis, you know, the reason why, you know, I think it's very appropriate for, for example, an ADHD student at university to have special accommodations or in school. because it does confer extra challenge. There are very real implications. If we look at a community level with ADHD, it's actually quite serious. I mean, ADHD is very over-represented in the prison population. ADHD does confer risk for a number of different things, greater risk for difficulty with addiction, like substance use, as an example, or teenage pregnancy and early death by misadventure. I mean, I guess I want to kind of hold these two realities that Yeah, there's like these unique strengths and I don't want to downplay the very real impacts of ADHD. You know, I think that sometimes things like, for example, you know, having a high IQ. I mean, you know, it's a useful thing kind of across the board, but that also can be a bit protective, you know, for some people. But when there's been maybe ADHD as well as you know, community sort of socioeconomic disadvantage. Actually, it's a very real thing. I think some people that I meet with with ADHD, I would love to see, you know, for example, the NDIS broaden out so that that functional impairment that they're experiencing could actually be supported because for some people ADHD actually is disability. So it's a real spectrum and I think this is where we kind of want to hold both of those realities in mind. and even thinking about the clinic owner or, you know, the team member who has ADHD, holding in mind both this real acceptance and kind of like esteem of those individual strengths, along with kind of that real sense of honouring the extra challenge that can be coming up with the different wiring of this brain. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really great point to be able to hold both of them together. The element there as well that you spoke of was overwhelmed. We look at a lot when there are many competing demands and being able to navigate those juggling hats or juggling balls, wearing many different hats. It sounds like being able to have the support team around you, psychologists, friends, those things are really important as well as the self-reflection as well. I wonder how have you been able to reconcile as a health professional helping and serving the community that you do? and being a business owner. Sometimes they can seem like they're at opposite ends and they don't quite reconcile one maybe being more around commercialization, building something sustainable and the other being of service. How did you come to perhaps the decision to go into business and how do you think about being a health professional serving whilst also being a good business owner? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that in, and I think that this is partly my attraction to clinic mastery, because I noticed that the client stayed at the center. You know, that actually this was And that felt very aligned with where I stand. I've gone into psychology because I actually care about helping people move out of a space that is really, really difficult and into that rich, full and meaningful life. Yeah. And I want to be able to hold that still as as the clinic owner. So thinking about how do I create a really quality offering that really supports clients where they genuinely are feeling cared for and supported. And doing that in a way that is actually sustainable as a business owner. I think when I first began, I just really didn't know much about business. I feel like I've been on a real journey. Clinic Mastery has been a really important part of that for me. But even for example, yeah, like I love even just recently, I was like, you know, doing some training on through Clinic Mastery on, you know, the client experience. And that really is quite central. So some examples for me are, you know, I got feedback a while ago from a lovely client with ADHD who said, Sarah, I can't be the only one, but I noticed that when I need to find the telehealth link, I have to search through all of my emails because you send it a few days ahead of time. I need it the day before with the telehealth link so I can easily find it. And I just thought, oh my goodness, thank you so much for that feedback. It's such an easy thing for me to provide. I don't know why I hadn't done it earlier, but that idea of keeping the client at the center and thinking about how do I orient this towards the client. Similarly, we developed a group program for adults with ADHD. It's called ACT for ADHD, using acceptance and commitment therapy. And we developed this because we just sort of saw that there was a gap. Here are adults who have ADHD, and there's something very powerful about the group experience, that validation of, I'm not alone here. Like, even though the people I'm with might look on the outside very different to me, and they've got different lifestyles, we're coming from, you know, we've got different professions, you know, different age groups, and yet there's this common thread. And I think that, yeah, for me as a clinician, I hold the clients at the centre, but also as a business owner, I'm holding clients at the centre and also my team. I think it's people. People are at the centre here. Yeah. So I don't think that there's a conflict. I think that there could become one, but I don't think it has to be that way. For me, also, this is part of me living out my rich, full and meaningful life is finding ways in which I can hold people at the centre. We refer to clinics for good, where you're aligning core purpose, perhaps the causes that matter to you, whether that be from animal welfare through to the next generation in your profession and contributing to the research, whatever matters to you, but creating a good, sustainable business, because without it, you can't amplify your impact, it's very limited, and also doing good by the people that you work with, team members, clients, creating great experiences. what is being a clinic for good mean to you? How does that manifest in your clinic? Yeah, I think I want to see it be a clinic for good across a lot of different areas. I think team culture, like I want, I genuinely love the people on my team. I really value them, clinicians and also, yeah, a really extraordinary admin assistant who's, yeah, just been really pivotal in sort of the success of Solid Rock Psychology. So I want, I guess, yeah, clinics for good at the team level. I want it to be for clients. So as an example, some of my professional mentoring that I've received was really around this idea of feedback informed treatment. We track the outcomes of our clients, we're very interested to see are people getting better and we post that stuff online like so that people can actually sort of see And we get really great outcomes. But also when I'm working with an individual, if we're sort of seeing, oh, wait, things are actually getting worse, we're really quick to pivot and respond to that and try something different. So I'm very passionate about that feedback informed treatment and tracking outcomes. So in seeking to really try to give clients the best and most quality care that they can receive, Part of that also, even how I supervise, it's using this idea of deliberate practice, wanting to actually deliberately get better at a particular skill within what we offer, and sort of like really practicing that, role-playing it, and then applying that. And I think also Clinics for Good, for me personally, I love that as a business owner, and actually I've created this for my team as well, where we actually have work flexibility. So, you know, one of my sons often comes in the afternoon after school, just as I'm sort of finishing things up. And I love that I'm able to, you know, knock off work early to attend school functions. I love that, you know, there's that flexibility that has been created because ultimately, you know, I began this venture really because I felt like I wanted to see, I had a vision of what I could offer to clients, but also I wanted it to be good for my family as well. That's such a common thread that I hear a lot of in my work between the people that join the same community is that there was a vision they had for their clients, the way the experience they wanted to provide their clients, and they needed some support and structure to be able to help bring that to life. The thing you touched on there, and I'm always interested in as health professionals, we're all taught research evidence, some version of stats more than likely some are more into the research base than others. What I often see is actually a lack of translation of those skill sets and mental frameworks and paradigms as a clinic owner. For instance, perhaps having a hypothesis about how we could improve the service or experience and get that feedback loop in client outcomes, or whether that's around a recruitment strategy, whatever it may be, I often see that there's this wonderful like paradigm and set of thinking and tools that's not translated over here. Now you have a background in research and it sounds like even there in the deliberate training of team members, it's very purposeful the way you think about that and work towards getting those outcomes. How else does that research mind, that process, come into you as a business owner, as a clinic owner, how else do you use some of those skillsets? Oh, actually, Ben, you might be challenging me on something here because I so very easily see how this applies to me as a clinician. You know, it really does shape what I do as a clinician. And it actually gave me confidence as an early career psychologist when I found out that outcomes of clients are not necessarily better the longer that a psychologist has been a psychologist. That actually an early career psychologist can get just as good outcomes because it's more about this deliberate practice. It's about kind of this ongoing improvement that actually makes a psychologist like good and effective. And when I started tracking my outcomes, it also gave me confidence like, oh, okay, we're doing something useful here. You know, even when I developed the act for ADHD group, you know, there wasn't sort of something at that time I wasn't able to find a group program that already had an evidence base and so I went from you know, some groups sort of act has a number of different other group protocols that have been, you know, that have been researched. I sort of applied them to this new sort of setting. But because I tracked the outcomes, I therefore felt confident. Oh, no, I can see what we're doing. This is actually useful and meaningful. So the outcomes gave me confidence as a clinician. Now I'm feeling kind of challenged, like, actually, how could I be applying this a little bit more deliberately from that business perspective? A few ideas are popping into my head, but they're not ones that I've necessarily tried out yet. Yeah, it's the same thing. It's like, how do I get the feedback? How do I actually figure out what is working? Yeah. It's just something I've observed and I am not in the research business at all. I have a very sort of meta view of research. And it's just interesting having maybe embraced some of that a little bit more personally over the last 12, to 24 months in our own work and then looking at, hey, everyone does this pretty well in a clinical sense, but I reckon there's some patterns here that could ease it or transferable skills that could be used in a business owner, you know, when you put on that business owner hat. that perhaps could yield better results. And, and one of the key elements that you touched on has been a bit of a mantra for us has been the feedback loop is being okay that you might get it wrong, you're more than likely going to get it wrong. There's going to be some feedback loop that reveals you're not doing something as well as you thought you were. Yes. Which is confronting because I certainly see, you know, broadly, a lot of health professionals are that A grade students, especially in business, they are, they would typically say they've got that streak of perfection, and they want to do things right. And they're not often confident to give it a crack unless they know they're going to get a good outcome. But that sort of willingness almost to test, to have an assumption about something, test it, validate it, get a feedback loop, and then improve. That's a very interesting insight from you about how you've used that in clinical care to understand the experiences of clients and the outcomes they're getting, and then use that to inform practice. Yeah, and what you say is really powerful, right? Because I think it is about being able to elicit authentic feedback, which includes negative feedback. Because if all we're hearing is, oh yeah, it was great, marvellous, whatever, there's nothing, there's actually nothing that we can do there. And there's a particular type of feedback informed treatment, which is more about clients actually saying, oh, how was this session? Did we meet my goals? Did I feel like you actually understood me? Did I feel like we were on the same page? Did I feel like there was direction? You know, it sort of asked these kinds of things. And the skill of actually using that kind of feedback is actually to really build that alliance with the client where they're willing to actually give you the authentic feedback. So I think similarly as business owners, it's thinking, well, how do I actually help my team to give me that kind of authentic feedback as boss, as manager, as supervisor, what might that look like, so that this isn't just some echo chamber of, oh, everything's great, because that doesn't help me actually grow or develop. So, yeah, I don't know. I'll have to be pondering this one more. How do I apply this more as a clinic owner? Great, great. Well, it feeds in nicely to mastery, part of our name, Clinic Mastery. The word mastery is such an important one for us, because it means that, as you said earlier, on this journey together, as we all are, and we really see mastery not being a definite end point, but that it's a continuation of improving, serving the people we work with better, the team members, the partners in our community, the clients, of course, at the center of it all. And how do we improve that, you know, better decision-making processes, better technology, better experiences, better outcomes, etc. how do you embrace mastery inside the clinic? Are there a certain number of things that you do or key processes that you do to improve? Obviously the feedback loop there from the clients is an integral one. What other ways do you in the team at the moment embrace that continuous improvement? Yeah. Well, Ben, we are like a, we've only been, we haven't actually even reached our two year anniversary as a business, like we are young. And so therefore we are nonstop in the improvement process. Yeah, nonstop. And it, but it's also, it's about just taking a bite out of the next thing. So even as an example so, and I think this really is with my team the thing that I'm seeking to, work on right now as a business owner is really wanting to empower my team who are really just a talented group of individuals, but working with their strengths and their interests on, I think that actually it might've been something I watched you speak on, which was talking about the 1%, like what are the little 1% actions that we can do that actually make a difference across time. And so as an example, we've kind of come up with this idea of special projects, where it's something that we're working on every quarter. We might sort of revisit what is the special project I'm working on, you know, for somebody in my clinic at the moment that they're developing a new program that's going to be helping, you know, adults who experience social anxiety or shyness. And so they're working on developing that program so that we can offer it next year. So there's a new kind of client offering, you know, another great thing that we can be offering our valued clients. for another clinician teammate, she's got really great insight when it comes to clarity about how to provide a very evidence-based sort of process of therapy. And so actually formalizing, and this is once again, it was another clinic mastery, a sort of, meeting that I did with Mick where he was talking about, okay, what do those first few sessions look like? And I thought, okay, it is a lot more complex sometimes with psychology because I think the human mind and it's a little, it's got more, well, a brain is a more, tricky organ than say, I don't know, the muscles in an arm or something like that. So there's a little bit more complexity, but there are key principles we can do. And so wanting to actually build up the resources that we have so that we're giving better service to our clients, but also providing for the team where we're not feeling like we need to reinvent the wheel, where the resources are really easily accessible. Another teammate, so my beautiful admin assistant, who's just a powerhouse, she's really working on marketing and improving what we put out there on our social media. And so, yeah, so I think that's something that I'm working on right now, is that idea of the 1%, how do I empower my team with their interests, with their skillset, so that they can be also kind of, you know, improving what we're doing. There's so many improvements we can make. We're just like we're very early in our stages of development as a business. But I'm proud of what we are. I think we've done a really great job getting to where we are. And I'm proud of the team. I'm proud of the people that we've got involved. Yeah, you're doing some wonderful work from what I can hear and see from those that are connected to you and what you've put out, which is awesome. I think it's really great. I get a great thrill and kick out of speaking with people like yourself. Health professionals are passionate about helping people live a better life. As you said, a rich, meaningful life, a full life. I think It's not without its adversity and challenges. They make for some pretty gnarly stories down the track. But it's rewarding, and I think that's what's really cool. And I love my sort of summary there of what you were saying is, I think business is a really great canvas for us to express that creativity and bring to life a vision that we have, say, for our client's experience and our team's experience, which is pretty cool, I think. And it's awesome to have more people like you being able to create places to work and places to come for healing and wellness. So awesome. Thank you for the service that you have and really appreciate your insights here today, especially on ADHD, something that comes up a lot inside the community. Hopefully those folks who are dealing with it or know someone who's dealing with it have taken some inspiration or information that they can use in their life. If they want to connect with you, Sarah, what's the best way to reach out? Yeah, absolutely. And we welcome that. We love working with professionals who have ADHD and who would like, you know, just some more tools in the toolkit or some So probably our website. So it's solidrockpsychology.com.au. And from there, it would be getting in touch just via email with our admin assistant, Jamie, and she will be able to sort of line something up. All of our team have really great skills when it comes to supporting folks with ADHD, and it's a real key interest for us. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we'll put the link down in the show notes here. Sarah, thank you so much for sharing today. And hopefully we'll have another conversation down the line and see how things are progressing. That would be fantastic. Thanks for the opportunity, Ben. Thanks for tuning in to the Grow Your Clinic podcast. To find out more about past episodes or how we can help you, head to www.clinicmastery.com forward slash podcast. And please remember to rate and review us on your podcast player of choice. See you on the next episode.
