Mastering Your Mortgage Vibe with Kim McGinley

Welcome to another exciting episode of the Girls in Property Podcast! In today's instalment, your host Athena is joined by the remarkable Kim McGinley, an award-winning mortgage broker and the managing director of Vibe Finance. Athena's vision for this podcast is to revolutionise our perception of subjects like accounting and finance, making them not only enjoyable but also accessible to all. Kim perfectly embodies this vision as a true trailblazer in the industry, demonstrating how understanding mortgages and finance can be both enlightening and entertaining.

During their lively conversation, Athena and Kim delve into a variety of engaging topics. They explore the ins and outs of "Bridging" and provide valuable insights into why hiring a broker is essential. Additionally, they compare residential and investment mortgages, shedding light on the key differences that everyone should be aware of.

Beyond finance, Kim and Athena also tackle the vital issue of work-life balance, particularly for working mothers. Drawing from their own experiences, they offer practical advice on managing the demands of both business and family life simultaneously.

So, buckle up for an episode filled with raw honesty, laughter, and a wealth of educational gems. Tune in now to join the conversation and elevate your understanding of property and finance!

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be...

Transcript

0:02

Good morning, everyone. Happy Monday and welcome to the Girls in Property podcast. How is everybody doing today? I hope you're good. I hope the sun is shining wherever you are and that you're having some really, really positive Monday vibes. So today I have somebody fabulous on the podcast. Somebody I've been wanting to get on for a really long time. So I just think she's awesome. I think she's really cool. I think she's got a really great vibe going on about her. So I would like to introduce Kim McGinley from Vibe Finance. Hi, Kim. Hello, that was such a cool introduction. Thank you for having me. Really pleased to be here. Yeah, pleasure. I've wanted to get you on for some time and, um, and it's just great. And I love the fact that we're going to be talking about finance. We're going to be talking about such cool topics to do with, um, just money and that type of thing. And obviously everything that evolves around that regarding your amazing TikTok videos and how cool you are. And I just love it. I love, I love genuinely. I love the vibe that you give off for women in the finance industry, which I think is so important. important because finance could be seen as such a boring topic or extremely male dominated and I think that you're really disrupting that in showing what a Finance company could actually look like so I'm really really just can't wait for everyone to hear your story and hear more about you. So Could you please start by introducing yourself telling everybody who you are what you do and something really cool about you? That's really cool. Okay, so yeah, I'm Kim McGinley. I'm the managing director of Vibe Finance. I've been running Vibe for the last six years now and prior to that, I was working for the lenders for around 12 years. So I've very much come from a lending background and the last six years have absolutely whizzed by. I don't think we could have come up against any more hurdles or challenges in the world or the market. But actually I'm really grateful for everything that has happened. So yeah, lots of exciting things going on. We've kind of grown from social media and yeah, we just really pride ourselves on customer service. Like really pushed the team hard for that. So yes, as we won the award last week for, well, we didn't win the award, we got commended, which, you know, I'll still take in such a wide market. So yeah, that's basically what we do. Fantastic and remind me the the Commendment Award. What was the title of that award? It was for buy to let broker of the year at the business manufacturer. other people were in that sector against you? I mean, there was like a whole process, long list, short list, and then on the evening as well. So yeah, no, I'm really, really chuffed to get that recognition. I think more so for the team after going through the last year of rate changes and just being hit by one thing after another, it's been a really tough year for everyone, I think, in the mortgage world. So to get that recognition was just really, really nice. Yeah, for them as well. I love that. I think, I think that's fantastic. And if you don't mind me asking, like, just cause I'm so curious about this, cause I think it's really fascinating is so were you up against, for example, with this award, some like really big companies that let's say, I've got like a team of like over a hundred people, 50 people, whereas how many people are actually in your team, Kim? there's only seven of us. We've got three brokers, three relationship managers, and we've got Max, who's our apprentice. So we're very, very small, but the best thing or the only way that I can describe is that whilst we're a small brokerage, we don't act like it, even on socials and what we're doing, like you say, on social media and things like that. So we definitely don't think small. We think big all the time. So. Yeah, to be up against those kind of established brokerages is just amazing for us. Yeah, really good. Congratulations. Thank you. I think that's incredible. And I love the idea of what you just said in regards to we may be small, but we're mighty and we think big. You know, as people know at the moment, I'm a one woman band. So there's one of me and I am mighty and I think big. So it's brilliant. all for this. And you know what's so funny? Someone messaged, sorry, I'm going off tangent here, but I just think it's funny based on the topic. Someone messaged me the other day and they're like, Oh, hi, can I please speak to somebody in your team on Instagram? And I was like, I am the team. How can I help? have kudos to you because obviously you're giving out that image as well. And I think that is just part of the process of running a business, expanding, growing a brand is to have that outside kind of outsider looking in thinking that you are big. Yeah. Love it. Exactly. team, but yeah, at the moment I was like, I am the team, so fabulous. So Kim, in true podcast style, we always start with something we are celebrating as it's Monday morning, we don't wanna have any Monday blues, let's really pick up the vibe and be really positive. So what are you celebrating at the moment? Do you know what I'm celebrating? I'm actually for the first time on top of my business and my case inbox. I've been prioritizing my cases for so long because I work in the business and on it. So I can't, I tend to fall into a bit where one balances the other out. So for me, I'm in a really good place actually, but I've spent a lot of time catching up over the weekend, but no, I'm starting the week off really well. So yeah, that's what I'm celebrating. I love that. And I saw that you were away recently with your family and I just think you've got such a good representation of a work -life balance as well for women and for mums particularly. You know, do you find that quite challenging sometimes trying to get the right balance or? Do you know what now? I've just accepted it for what it is and I know that I'm doing my best. I used to beat myself up all the time. You know, when you start a business, it's funny because you think, I want to start my own business because I don't want to answer to anybody. I want to work the hours that I want to work. But the hours that you put into growing a business in the first few years, I mean, I have never in my life, I've probably worked more in the last six years than I have in my whole entire career. And I used to really beat myself up about it. I'd miss my daughter. You know, she'd be like, mommy put me to bed. I'd be like, one more email, one more email, I'll be there. I'd get there and she's already asleep. And I would feel like the worst mom in the world, like literally. But now I've just got this acceptance that I'm doing everything I can to the best of my ability. And I'm actually forgiving myself a lot more for that. So to have that stance is just helping me out massively. And my kids know that I'm doing the best I can as well. So yeah, you can't be everything to everyone, my team. like do you know what I mean? So obviously I prioritise them as much as I can but being realistic plates are gonna drop so yeah just forgiveness. I love that. And we spoke about this so much actually at the retreats, because we had a whole session about struggles. And Ella Hardy, whose land profits, she got up and said, you know, I'm a mum, and I'm really struggling and you have mum guilt, where one moment you want to be the best mum you can be, one moment you want to be the best, you know, business owner that you can be, because you're more than just a mum, you are also, you know, Kim McGinley vibe, and that's who you are, it's your identity. And actually we had another person who stood up called Nina, who's full of beans, shout out to Nina. And she was talking about this idea that she gives, I can't remember the term that she used, apologies Nina, but effectively it was to do with where she dedicates like a two hour block between the kids coming home from school nursery, where she's like, right, these two hours are for my children, everything else can wait. And she was like, if you park mentalize it, it could be a little bit better. And I thought that was a really good. takeaway as it were. And I think it's tough. It is an, oh my gosh, it's something you should, mom guilt doesn't go. It really just doesn't go. You learn to live with it. And like you've just said, it's finding a way that works for you. So whether that works for Nina, having those two hours and dedicating it, I totally get that. But everyone's just got such a different way of doing things. And yeah, like I said, it's more about forgiveness and just accepting that you're doing the best that you can more than anything. I love that. And do you know what? I'm not a mum yet. I'm going to be a mum one day. And what was really interesting is actually what you said earlier, which is this idea of the reason we left our full-time jobs was so that we could buy back our time so that we could therefore live life on our terms and be who we want to be. And what was interesting was I got my partner to come on the recent podcast because I really wanted to show the reality behind what life actually looked like behind the curtains. And it was such a fantastic podcast. Like, It actually got some of the best downloads we've ever had because it's just authentic and it's just real. And one of the things he actually says to me on it was, Athena, the whole reason you left your full -time job was to go and live a life where you get to choose your hours, you get to have your freedom, you get to have that. He's like, the opposite has happened. You work day and night. I never see you like, and I'm like, yeah, but that's the reality. And I say on the podcast, the reality is, is. You have to do that when you're starting a business because otherwise like who is going to do it for you? You've got to be that person who flames flames of who? Stokes the fire is what I'm trying to say and I noticed you said that earlier and I just thought it was such an interesting thing that you said where you know, you work really it's like short -term pain for long -term reward. Yeah, I always have that long -term goal in my mind of knowing that it's getting me closer to where I want to get to. Am I there now? Absolutely not. But everything that I'm doing is hopefully getting me that step forward to getting there. Well, I think you're doing fantastic. You won the awards off you go. And I think, you know, just one, one day at a time. And as I always say, 1 % every day just to take you forward in that direction. So I love that. Um, as well, just to add to that very quickly is what I've learned as well as you have to prioritize yourself. I've suffered burnout twice now in the past by just literally grinding and grinding and not knowing when to stop, not seeing those signs. So again, if you talk to Kim now, to Kim two, three, four years ago, I'm very, very different as a person and I've got no problem prioritizing myself now as well as beforehand, I'd be at the bottom of the list. everyone else would be above me, whereas now I'm much higher up on the list. I should be top, I should say that, but I'm up there. You know, that's, I'm so glad you just said that because I find that really fascinating is if I'm completely honest, which I always am, I'm still very much the bottom of my priority list, very much the bottom. And I'm still there because I'm still in that growth phase. And so everything else comes above it where you're just like, Oh, keep going, keep going. And then one day you look back and you go, I spoke about this on the podcast as well, where, you know, Steve would come up and bring me food and you'd come back up like, I don't know, a couple of hours later. And I've eaten like a bite of a sandwich because. I'm so engrossed in what I'm doing. I'm forgetting that as a human being, you're supposed to feed yourself. And it's so funny because the girls at the retreat were who are just like fabulous and wonderful and caring and just so much love for them were watching me going around and making sure everybody else was okay and sorting the rooms. And they kept coming up to me clearly because of the podcast and saying, Athena, have you eaten? Athena, have you had a drink? Athena sit down and eat something at dinner. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, oh my God, like, thank you girls. Thank you for reminding me. because you can just get so caught up in what you're doing. It's insane. Yeah, I get that though. I do get it. prioritize everybody else and wanna make sure that, like, I wanna make sure that they've eaten, that they're happy. And I just almost forget about myself in that. And that, by the way, that's not the right way to be. That's not a healthy approach at all. where that will change, I promise you. I think it's all part of the growth because like I said, two, three years ago I was exactly the same and now I'm so different. But it's taken a while. That's it. Yes, 100%. And then what am I celebrating? Let me think about this. Oh my goodness, what am I celebrating? Do you know what I'm celebrating? The fact that obviously the retreat that just happened was like my first solo retreat that I did effectively. And what I'm celebrating is this idea that the people who sponsored the event, took effectively a shot on me going, I like what you're representing. I'd like to get involved. I don't really know what to expect because you haven't really done anything before, but let's see how we go and we'll do it. And immediately after the retreat, they were like, when's the next one? I'm your lead sponsor. Let's go and do this. And I'm just celebrating that. I'm celebrating the fact that I took a punt of myself. They took a punt on me. And actually, it's about connections. It's about meaningful connections in this industry. and bringing people together without needing to have competition or you go over there and I'm over here. It's like, well, why can't we collab? Why can't we all just inspire one another and lift one another and make the world and industry just a better place altogether? So I'd really like to celebrate collaboration, I think I'd like to do today. So yeah. for that. Exciting times. Um, okay. So let's delve deep Kim into the world of finance So where do I begin for finance? Okay So first of all, the majority of listeners who would be listening to this would let's start with the basics would our investors effectively So they're looking let's go with to do a buy to let or a buy refurbished rent refinance first of all so What are the key things to look for when trying to get lending, let's say, when doing a buy refurbished rent refinance, if they don't have the 25 % deposit, they want to get into it and they need somewhere to start and they want to talk to a broker to say, this is my dream. Like how the hell do I do it? Where should they start? I think there's so many creative ways of doing things now. So that strategy is one of the most popular strategies at the minute. I think in the time that we find ourselves in with the house prices the way they are, a little bit stagnant, it's a buyer's market at the moment, which obviously is a massive positive for investors, but they want to add value. So when it comes to financing, typically with this strategy, it is on a bridging finance. So your short -term finance to then remortgage at the end of it or flip it should they wish to. The deposit is one of the biggest things at the moment because obviously there's private financing that people can go down that route. Lenders are very open to that. There's most bridging lenders that would consider that, especially if there's formal loan agreements in place. So a lot of the networking events I go to, they're talking all the time about private investors, friends and family that could help out. So there's that element. You've got lease options. You've got ways of doing it between exchange and completion. I'm doing one at the minute, which is a great example actually, where they're buying it for, I think it's 200 ,000. Between exchange and completion, he's converting it to a HMO. The bridging lender is actually lending off the increased value as a HMO. So what he's actually putting in is very minimal. Yes, he's got to cover the works, but when you put that into the grand scheme of things of financing it, it's working out so well for him. And then we're just going to remortgage him onto a HMO product in the coming months. So there are... Different creative strategies definitely out there to use. It's just which one works for each individual is very different. Could you just talk me through just that example just there with exchange and delayed completion? So how is that working? He's, he has already exchanged on the property. He's exchanging it well, so he's going through a process at the minute. So we've arranged the bridging finance. They are going to value it as it is now. So it's just a three bed detached house. And then between exchange and completion, he's undertaking 50 ,000 pounds of works to the property to convert it to a HMO. And then at the end value, so by the time the bridging finance comes into play, they're going to revalue it before completion and they're going to lend off the HMO valuation on the short term finance. So. Wow, super... so at the minute, it will be like, let's say straightforward. If you're buying it normally, let's say 75% gross as a bridge. I'm not going to get too much into the depths of their retained interest, what it nets down to and stuff like that. I'll try and keep it as simple as possible. So instead of lending, let's say 75 % of the purchase price, they're now going to be lending 75 % against the increased value once he's done the work. So even though the purchase hasn't gone through, because they can demonstrate that he's spending the money on the works, they're lending off the actual increased value of the property. So there's ways of doing it that way. Wow, so he, he would have had everything completed by the time he then goes to complete on the property. goes through, all the works are done. It's ready to be let out. He then buys it, lets it out. We remortgage him onto another HMO product. But it just means that day one on that purchase, when it goes through, he's already borrowing off that increased value. That's amazing. That's a great idea. Yeah. Oh, I like that idea. understand these deals, I guess, for me as a broker and then the way you propose it to the lenders. That's half the battle. That's where my lending experience kind of comes in to then to get that result for the clients. But yeah, then we've got lenders where he doesn't need to wait the six months. They can just remortgage him straight away, basically. So it's a win -win for all of them. Well, this is what, well, first of all, like, I would just say, this is why it's so important to get the right broker. I'll just say that because so many, there are so many brokers out there. Of course there are. And there's all these people out there saying, um, oh, we're not going to charge you any fees and all of this stuff. It's like, yeah, that's fine. But then they probably don't have the access to the type of lenders that, you know, the type of experience that you can click, that you clearly have. I mean, how much time and money has your client just saved by actually speaking to you about it as opposed to just going to a really like, you know, inexperienced, cheaper broker. Like, I just think that's incredible. And it's just so fascinating to think, you know, and actually you made a good point there about the lenders with the whole six months at the end as well, because a lot of lenders will make you wait about six months before then refinancing. So are you saying that there is, there are obviously lender panels who will do it quicker than that. Yes, absolutely. So I think that it's really important when the six month rule comes into play, there are certain lenders that still stick by those six months. There's many lenders actually that don't have the six month rule. The clients don't need to wait that time. So again, I guess from a broker's perspective, it's just working like you've just said, with brokers that understand the market for specialist finance. So yeah, I think if you get your more regulated brokers that don't quite understand specialists, they will tell clients to wait the six months. And again, it also comes down to what you've just said about saving clients money. And if they can move on refinance quicker, move on to their next projects quicker, again, you're just helping people build their dreams of, you know, all these property ownership and seeing their portfolios grow. Yeah, I absolutely love that. And then what about a different example than Kim? Because obviously it's a really clear what you can do when taking, let's say a three bed house to a HMO conversion. Because you can obviously don't want to brick and mortar to start with and then do a commercial valuation at the end. So you can clearly see the uplift in that. What about if it's just let's go with a one or two bed to a three or four bed? How can people really show that uplift to the valuers? in regards to then getting a high valuation. Are we talking HMO specific? No, I'm talking non -HMO. Okay, so increasing from a two bed to a three or four bed. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty vanilla for us, if I'm honest with you, it's just the proofs in the pudding because they'll ask for evidence of the cost of money that they've spent on the works of the property. They'll revalue it at the point when the works are complete. So if anything, it's just really straightforward, very straightforward. love that. I love how you're just like, yeah, very straightforward. Oh, trust me, we see a broad spectrum of like, vanilla to, mainly what we do is complex. But yeah, yeah. Okay. complex things. So one of the typical questions that I would get asked most frequently is, Athena, what is bridging? How does bridging work? So for our listeners who don't really understand bridging or do kind of know what bridging is, but don't really know how it works in a nutshell or in its simplest form, could you please explain bridging? course. So bridging is a short term finance. The biggest thing about short term finance, okay, a couple of things, it is more expensive than your normal term lending, but it's the most flexible to give you options of what you're going to do with the property. So typically with bridging, again, very high level, you would take out maybe a 12 month bridge, always allow yourself extra time on a bridge, do not even if you think you're going to do works within three, six months. give yourself that nine to 12 month bridge, because if anything, the last few years, we don't know what could happen. It's different to a normal mortgage, a term mortgage, because what the lenders typically do is they deduct those 12 months payments upfront is called retained interest. So whilst you may be borrowing up to 75 % loan to value, even 85 at the minute net, you can actually borrow on a refurb project. But once they actually deduct that from those payments, what you actually end up getting could be around 68, 69 % loan to value. So you may need to put a little bit more monies in for the works. Other than that, it's typically no early repayment charges. You only get charged interest for the months you take the loan. Yeah, it's very flexible financing and it's quicker than term loans. But when I say quick, I think people think of bridging and think two, three days, maybe a week. It's not the case. Standard bridging, you're kind of looking up to around four weeks for a bridge. It can happen sooner. I'm not saying it can't, but expect around four to six weeks. And yeah, less documents to provide and things like that. But that's a very high level without going into it. Kind of what you'd expect from a bridging line. Okay, so let me ask you some questions around that then. So could you please tell me the three positives about taking out a bridging loan and then tell me the three main risks of bridging loans. Yes. Okay. So the three positives I would say would be flex the flexibility. It allows you to undertake the works to the property because a lot of lenders, if you're going to be spending money on the works, the property, they're not going to allow you to do that in a term loan. And the third one at the minute, I'd say with rates. So if you're taking something on a bridging loan, yes, it's a bit higher cost funding, but you'd like to think in nine to 12 months time, if even if you exit sooner, I'm hoping praying that rates will start to come down. So when you come to remortgage, you should hopefully benefit from a lower rate than where we are now anyway to tie yourself into. Risks, the biggest risk is the exit. It needs to have a solid exit. So if you're working with a broker that is only arranging the bridging finance, the biggest warning sign for me is if they don't question what the exit will be, or they don't look at that for you as an exit option. So, That is the biggest thing for me and my team to make sure we've got nailed down on bridging loans. Risk, I guess, if you're, the risk of over running on costs for refurb projects, we see this a lot. People sometimes don't add a contingency, costs can spiral, things can come out of nowhere and blindside you. So it's having the money to do the actual, to complete the refurb. And thirdly, it's like I said, don't the risk would be overrunning and going on to default interest on a bridging loan, big no no, very high cost involved depending on who the lender is. So also making sure you're working with a lender. I think people are so fixated on the initial rate and what they can get bridging finances relationship led and you don't know how good someone is until you're in trouble and you need a lender that is flexible that can listen that understands their empathetic. rather than no help is given. Again, this is where a broker comes in. We know the bridging lenders that are very and have been, they've demonstrated this over recent years. They can back what they say and they really work with clients rather than leaving you in the poop. I don't know if I could swear or not, but yeah, in the show. love that. And exactly, you just made it. You just made, you just made a fantastic point. It's about getting the right broker who understands what the lenders, how the lenders work, how quick the lenders are, how empathetic they are. Absolutely. And one of the things I was going to say is, It's definitely this idea about the exits, isn't it? Like whenever I speak to people about bridging, I always say to them, look, it's great and you can definitely use it, but do you really understand your exit? And for example, have you ever had any examples? I don't know if you have, but I certainly know of people who have had this before where they go and they do bridging on, let's say a flip project and all's going well, everything's fine. But then because of the market, because of what's happening, the house doesn't sell. And they're like, oh my God, the house isn't selling and I've got a bridge on it. What do I do? Have you ever seen that before? 100%. I mean, when you were in lockdown, when we had that whole period between 2020 to up to really 2022, 2023, we had so many clients on projects that they'd intended to flip at the time and they either couldn't or whatever the reason was. And yeah, that's when it really came to the forefront, which lenders kind of really helped out with that. Or as a broker. we were kind of ready for it with the exit options anyway. Yeah. my question. Because my question would be, is if, for example, like I was to take one on, on a bridging and to flip it, I personally would have two exit strategies. I'd say, one is I'm going to flip it and this is what I'm going to do. And this is how much I'm going to pull out. And this is what I'm going to pay back the lender. And then I'd say, if I can't do that, I would then put it onto a refinance and rent it out. And this is what the plan is and make sure that both options work. Some people have said to me before that bridging lenders usually only want to hear about one exit, but it is important to have different exits, isn't it? It really is. I mean, they like to rather than having that they don't like it when the client says I might sell it or I might flip it. It's different to saying my plan A is to sell it. And my plan B would then to be to remortgage it. So yeah, they're only really interested in the main exit. But like you've just said, it's foolproof planning to have that plan B backup plan to know that okay, so if it doesn't sell, what am I looking at on a mortgage at the moment? So just to understand it more. Yeah, absolutely. Because otherwise, if you only have the flip at the end, and then you can't do it and your bridging is coming to an end, you're like, oh, now what am I going to do? and then it's like oh no I might not be able to raise enough or you know whatever that might be so yeah. I've also heard some people talking about this idea about a hundred percent development finance or you know, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, you know, what's your opinion around this? Oh, I love this. So it doesn't exist 100%. So when you're talking about 100 % development finance, development finances worked backwards from the GDV. They will fund 100 % of the work. So they'll deduct that first. They'll then net down the interest, the arrangement fees, and then whatever the net loan is day one, that then goes towards the project. A client will always be required. So 100 % is also, it is applicable if you've got other assets that you can add as additional security. It's the only way to get 100 % financing, but it's only 100 % because you're adding other properties and they're leveraging against those as well. So yeah, don't be fooled by the whole 100% thing. Clients do need to put money in. It's how that looks physically or with other assets is the question. Yeah, I like that because people are sometimes here and they're like, oh, I'm going to go and get 100 % this and this and I'm like, how does that work? it sounds amazing. If someone finds out, please let me know. But no, it's not. You know, below market value, you can get up to 90%. So you can only put 10 % in, but the pure 100 % ones, it's just not possible. Absolutely. And then the other one that I had recently was I was speaking to somebody who had the deposit to go out and get say, they were actually what they wanted to do is give you a scenario, they wanted to go and do a HMO conversions, what they wanted to do. And they had the deposit, they had the money, that wasn't the issue. They had to borrow past the deposit. The issue they had was that they didn't own their own residential property, and that they didn't have at least a year's experience as a landlord. with a typical buy to let. They just wanted to go straight in, HMO conversion, off we go. And I think what ended up happening was when they spoke to some brokers, what happened was, was they were saying, well, you can't do that because you don't have the landlord experience to show. You need to go and actually get that experience or have a residential property. Cause otherwise your pool of lenders is tiny. It's literally like minuscule and the costs are really high. It's high risk, everything like that. So what's your opinion? Like if a person wants to come to you and say, Here's my deposit, I wanna go to a HMO conversion, I don't own my house, I rent accommodation and I don't have landlord experience. What would you say to them? It is possible. And I think, again, this just comes down to experience. Bridging finance would be absolutely fine for them. It's not the bridge, it all comes down to the exit. Yes, most lenders do want you to be a homeowner, or at least own a buy to let, but we work with bridging, sorry, HMO lenders that don't actually need that. So it's kind of first time buyer, first time investor on a small HMO, but it is possible. Okay, what would you classify as a small HMO? anything up to six bedrooms. So when you get to the seven beds plus, it kind of falls more into the Sioux-Igheneris. Anything up to six bedrooms is in the industry known as a small HMO. Okay, so if somebody now comes to me and says to me, you know, Athena, I have the deposit, I want to go and build up to a six bed HMO with and I, and you know, I don't own my own property and I don't have a year's landlord experience. I can now say, well, it is possible, speak to Kim. so many things like, you know, that they've got an income that they can demonstrate, there's no adverse credit, there's so many other questions that, you know, lead on from that. But high level again, yeah, the thing is with us, we'd established this very quickly at the beginning. So rather than get anyone to form fill anything out, because who wants to do that until you've known you've got a bit of commitment as to what you're doing. We've just got some bullet point questions on an email that we ask, and those key... 10 -12 points is enough for us to go away on any deal really and get the indicative terms that are pretty much going to be hard and fast, unless anything should come up in the meantime. Yeah, fantastic. And actually you just made a fantastic point, which is what you said. It depends because you're right. It also depends on their affordability aspect because in, you know, I decided to go into the world of self -employment, fabulous, and leave my full -time job. And as a result of that, of course, you know, it's very difficult to actually show the pay slips. It's when you're starting out, it's very difficult to show. You can show the money in your bank account and say, look, I've got the money, but they're saying, yeah, but you need to show it. in payslip form, you need to show it as if this and it's really difficult. I almost feel like they're against us and I'm like, come on guys. So what would you say to people who are now embarking on this idea of leaving their full -time job, going into the world of running their own business and now wanting to invest in property such as myself where I've got, let's say the deposit. I'm fortunate to respect that I've got the landlord experience and I own my own property, but let's just say I didn't, let's just pretend I didn't have those things. Yeah. advice would you give to me in regards to then trying to actually get on the ladder of my first investment property? yeah, it comes down to everyone's situation is very different. And out of the questions that we ask, any one thing could throw a certain lender out. It is possible. And I guess it just comes down to again, so if you're going self -employed, there will be of course, every lender has got different criteria. And some of them might say that you have to be self -employed for a year. When you start getting into the more specialist lenders, so if you don't have that self -employment experience, or there is a minimum income threshold for a lender, just all I would say is to expect to pay slightly higher rates to go with a specialist lender initially, just give yourself time. I mean, property is a long game for a lot of people. So that initial two, three years of slightly higher payments actually that then can give you that experience to then go to the mainstream lenders is worth its weight in gold to me. So it's also putting things into perspective for clients and just saying, look, yes, you might bulk at the rate initially, but... You are a first time buyer, you're a first time investor, you're investing in a HMO which is more management intensive. So actually expect to pay a bit of a higher rate, get the experience and then you'll be fine. That is exactly what happened to me when I got my first property. That exact thing I remember because they were trying to talk to me about the different lenders to go with and I didn't have my years experience at the time. And I actually wanted to do a conversion on it and turn it from a one bed to a two bed. And so I wanted to have a lender also that not only would allow me a non -landlord at the time, but also one that would allow me to refinance within the period of six months. And with that came a premium price and they're like, you have to pay more to therefore have that. And of course it was like on a whole tracker thing. And I was like watching it like a hawk thinking, Oh my God, what have I done? But you're right. I think you just have to have somebody decent advising you saying, well, this is, these are your options effectively. You can either go down this road or this road. But what you've said, Kim, which I think is so lovely and so important is that you're telling everybody it is possible. Ask the right questions. speak to the right people, it is possible. And the advice I always give to people, always, when they message me or call me or are mentored by me and they're starting out in the game and they want to invest and they want to go and purchase, I say, have you spoken to a broker yet? And they say, well, no, I don't need to, I don't have a property. And I'm like, no, you need to go and speak to a broker first because you need to understand what you can afford to then go and look at. And that's the right way around to do it is you don't go find the property and then go to the broker going, I found this property. You need to speak to them to understand the situation. Yeah, and what's possible. Yeah, definitely. And also it's so easy nowadays to do your due diligence on brokers. I mean, you've got Google reviews, trust pilots, so many ways to do due diligence. So I would also just highly recommend we work in an unregulated space. Now with unregulated, you will get those brokers that don't, they're not up to par. They're not best practice. And I just think it's quite easy to weed all those ones out now with what you can do online in the searches. So just make sure you're speaking to the right one. Definitely. And you know, you're obviously a very successful business woman. You know your stuff, you're very, very clever and astute, but at the same time, you like to have a bit of fun as well, which I think is always important. And people always will work with people that they like. People always will go towards the people that they're connected to. So I just would like to say Kim is great fun. Like your videos of you and your team on social media and TikTok make - They make me laugh so much like guys you have to go check them out. They're so funny. Do your team want to do them? I can't say they all do and I don't make them, but some of them really enjoy it. And I think it was only recently where we've done the fun day Friday thing and they saw the reaction that we got on LinkedIn and things like that and TikTok. And I think seeing that reaction, they're like, it is actually okay to be a bit goofy on a video. Do you know what I mean? And show yourself. And they completely understand it's part of our brand awareness now. So yeah, I just don't really care what people think in a way that I love showing the fun side. You know. and the team have got such a great sense of humor and you kind of you buy from people, you know, people buy from people. So I've learned not to be afraid to just be that person and just show our fun side because it's so easy in the corporate world, especially like you said earlier, Athena, about, you know, very male, very stale industry. So for someone like us, we're now being known and remembered for that. And we've got this. The first one I did actually, the Fun Day Friday, I had the first lead after that. He's like, I've been watching you for a while, just saw your video and I really want to work with you. And I was like, it works. This is cool. There you go. Slide across the floor, guys, and you will get. But do you know what? I think that's fantastic. And I, that's, that's why I think you're fab. It's because you're disrupting the industry and you're, you're not what somebody referred to me the other day. And I thought it was genius. I'm going to hold onto it. Cause I speaking to him about accounting, actually, it wasn't brokerage. It was accounting, but it's finance. Everything is through finance and they were comparing it to a stale, pale male. Yes, I nearly said that a minute ago, but I kind of stuck with male and pale or stale. Yeah, so we didn't pile, doesn't have to be male, but we'll go with stale, pale male. And, you know, they could be really like stuffy. Also, can I just say sometimes what I've had a lot of people say to me is that they feel that maybe they don't want to go and ask too many questions to a broker because they don't want to appear stupid. They don't want to appear silly. They don't want to seem like they're asking really silly questions. And so they feel like the reason I'm saying this is because people have said this to me before. So I'm being a voice for them. they've said to me, they've messaged me and said, but I don't want to ask wrong questions. I'm not experienced enough. I don't know enough information to go and speak to a broker. And I'm like, isn't that the whole point of speaking to them to then learn? And they're like, yeah, but I'm not going to understand their terminology. And what I think you do is you break that barrier. You break that mold and you say, let's make a goofy dance. Let's understand what, what. you know, it doesn't need to be complicating. We can explain what bridging is. We can explain what commercial valuations are and use language that we can all understand and be goofy and have fun in the process. It doesn't have to be serious. It doesn't have to be like soul destroying. It could be fun, which I think is important. I know that I've had that before with clients saying, look, I'm really so they'll kick off a conversation. I'm really sorry for asking some stupid questions. And I always, always say to them, there is no stupid question. I mean, you know, we talked to a wide variety, and I always say to someone, like, I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but I'll always treat someone as if they don't know it, they'll tell me if they do. And it's easy to have that conversation trying to break bridging down like we did a minute ago on this on this podcast, very difficult to do without. being technical and up here. But on a call, when people call me, we literally break it down and walk through it so that they do want it. Because it is important. We're talking about big commitments on bridging finance and any finance really. And it's really important for people to know and understand it. So I would never want anyone to feel like that coming to me. And I think having that approachability by being goofy, it almost has that easier way of being like, OK, maybe she's easier to talk to. Do you know what I mean? Or. having that perception as well and I would never want anyone to approach me thinking I can't ask her a question that would just be my worst nightmare. I love that. And you mentioned earlier that you actually do some quite complex cases as well. So do you like have an example of one of the most complex ones you've done? Would we even be able to understand it? When I say complex, I mean, we do. I mean, I've had multiple foreign nationals from various countries, some of them fall within the high risk countries. They're investing first time. We're talking hotels in London, multi-unit blocks that have restrictions on maybe for student lets. We've had literally so many. I'm trying to think of now what other layers I've had. It's just been, again, I guess when you get into private investor financing, sometimes I've had clients where we've had to do due diligence on 30 private investors that have all pulled in. They're buying below market value. There is some kind of maybe a regulated tenancy. Literally, it could be anything. It could be anything. But it's quite rare that we get straightforward nowadays because sometimes it's all, they've all got a twist somehow. But it's about us unraveling that as early as possible before a client pays any fees to a lender or us so that we know we've got a very good chance of getting it through. So that's our job at that front end before any commitment. Oh god, that sounds fun. Like, 30 different people, like, pooling together. Oh. can't really moan about it because my relationship manager, my senior one Beth, she had to do all of that so kudos to Beth. She's a great person. that. That's brilliant. And that actually brings me actually to to one of my sort of final questions about this kind of sector, which is this idea around let's just say that, you know, you say, people always, let me start again, people will say at networking events, I'll say, why don't you try and get private finance from friends, family, you know, various people. So let's say that a person then will be gifted or given, let's say.£30 ,000 from a family member, a friend, how did they have to have that structured with that family member or friend to have it accepted by a lender as private finance? So we're talking about two different things. So gifted is normally acceptable by any lender as long as it's an immediate family member, mother, brother, father, sister, you know, that kind of scenario. When you start to get outside of that and it's cousins or an in -law, it's not to say it can't be done, but for a lot of lenders, they wouldn't like that. And then we talk to the actual financing. So if they're not gifting it to them, but they're loaning it to them, there are loan agreements that would need to be in place. ideally with no charges. So the minute there's a second charge or they want a second charge on the property, that can really complicate matters and a lot of lenders would be out. But as long as there's a formal loan agreement, and it could be like a one, two, three page document by solicitors that just says this is the amount that I'm lending them, the interest rate, this is what I'm going to be paid back and this is the time that I'm going to be paid it back by, a lot of the lenders are okay with that. They just need to do due diligence. The biggest thing at the minute is following the money back, whether you're borrowing it, funding it from savings. If there are transfers coming in and out of everywhere, they will literally, the lenders will trail that back. And we could be talking even one or two years to be very, very sure that they know the source of that deposit. So it's one of the biggest things at the minute for lenders to have, you know, really hot on that at the minute. They wanna know where the money's come from. they want to know where the money's coming from. But when we talk about private financing or gifted, it's absolutely fine. Just make sure, again, you're having these conversations as early as possible and being very honest with your broker, just so that they know they're recommending the best option for you, lender -wise. Yeah, and then they can advise you, like, let's just say you do say, my cousin's gonna give me, loan me 30 ,000 pounds. They would then tell you and you would say, right, you need to go and sit down with your cousin and write an agreement that says this, this, this, and get your cousin to sign it effectively and give that advice. there'd normally be like a deed of gift letter as well by the lenders that something would need to be signed. They may need the ID documents just to verify who it's come from. But yeah, again, it's very, very common. Very common. And then you mentioned, because I do just have to pick up on this because people might be listening going, what was that that Kim just said? We have to talk about first charges and second charges because you mentioned the second charge. So can you just let people know what you mean when you say first charge and second charge? Yes, so normally when you get a mortgage, when you buy a property, the lender will have a first charge on the property. So at land registry, should anything go wrong, God forbid, they will have first refusal, first charge on the property. So they will get paid back first. You also have second charge options. Now it's ultimately really down to the first charge lender if they'll allow for a second charge to sit behind them. Ultimately, it's a second loan secured on the property, but ranking second to the first charge lender. So there'll be second in line to be paid should something go wrong. You typically pay more money for a second charge. There are lenders that do offer it on buy to let's and straightforward mortgages as well. But sometimes with private financing, it will be on the basis that they say, well, I want to have second charge on the property because it gives them more security. But that complicates matters as far as a lender is concerned or can do. Yeah, I always talk to people about this because of course, if the lender or the bridge has got obviously the bridging company have got the first charge and then they try and then go and get private finance. I'm like, but if the private finance person wants a first charge, they can't have a first charge. They're going to need to go for a second charge. And if they go for a second charge, it's going to complicate things. So then you have to go into personal guarantees and you've got to have those conversations and it gets so complicated. It really does. And I've been in those conversations myself. And that can really kind of, you know, you can even get say a private investor who just says, I'm not doing it unless I have a first charge. And you're like, well, I can't give you a first charge because... lenders have the first charge and they're like well then I'm not investing and even if you offer a personal guarantee and so it's understanding the mechanics of it as well so there's lots to it guys. Exactly. And when you're looking for private investor financing, I think that's a really good takeaway for them to have is that in an ideal world, you just have a loan document, personal guarantee, and no charges on the property. Best case scenario for an investor, I think, because like we've just said, it doesn't complicate the mortgage process. But I do get likewise why some investors want charges on the property. So again, it's just understanding the risk element of who you're talking to, to get private financing from. Yeah, it's the relationships that you build as well. You know, the first one, they don't really know you, which is why guys, it's easier not to try and ask a stranger for money. It's easier to try and get an investor who you know, like can trust already. So yeah. And then again, before I ask you with the famous property disasters at the end, I've actually got a question for you. And my question for you is like, what is next for Vibe Finance? Like I can see you having big dreams, big goals, like where are you going? What are you doing? want to be up there to be known as one of the the brokerage to go to in the UK for investors. So I'm spending a lot of time networking at the minute, which is really paying off and no one listening to this underestimate the power of networking. Even six years on, I've done more networking in the last six months than I've done probably combined in the whole time. I want to grow it. I'm launching hopefully a podcast later this year, networking event in Cardiff with Shaz, who you mentioned had come on here the last time. I'm doing a women's retreat in October with somebody that you know. There's just lots of things. I want to help as many people as possible as well. So I really need to give a bit of thought and I'm property investing myself. So I really want to develop that side and hopefully go into commercial conversions at one point. Yes, I love that. Good for you. What retreat are you doing in October? What are you doing? It's not actually launched yet, so I shouldn't really have said it. So it's launched imminently, but it's basically for other female brokers in the industry. It's because you always get your golf days, you always get your golf days, it's rife with them and they're built around men and I don't have time to play or learn golf. I don't have the patience either to do it and I'm not very good. So yeah, me and Rosalia have got together actually and we have teamed up and we're launching something exciting towards the end of this year. So very, very exciting. Me and Ros are very, very close. She's my girl. Yeah, love it. So we're meeting up tomorrow about it actually. So yeah, very exciting. And listeners will know that obviously Rosalia was a speaker at the Girls and Property retreat. So that's who's Kim referring to. That sounds incredible. I love that. And I love the fact that you're like, do you know what? And so is it specifically for broke, for brokers in the finance industry, you know, women in, in that industry. finance industry that are typically high up or running their own teams. So it's the extra stress and the pressures that have come about over the last few years. And there hasn't really been anything like this. So it's sponsored by the lenders. We've got five or six quite very large lenders that have all believed in this and they're sponsoring it. So yeah, very much around leadership, life, stress management, relaxation, inspiration. So we're tailing it all around that. Very exciting. Yeah. Do you know what? I'm all for it as well. And I'm all about women doing their thing and women saying, you know, I'm over here gonna build my door over here and I'm gonna build my door over here. And it's like, come, you wanna come to my door, come to my door. If you wanna go over there, go over there. And there's enough space for all of us. That's what I'm here to represent. Like there's enough around for everybody. So. Do you know what I love even more? So me and Shaz, we're probably the first brokers to partner up and launch a networking event in Cardiff or like whatever. And in our industry, it's baffled a lot of people saying, but you're both brokers. Like, aren't you going to be fighting for the competition? I'm like, we don't see it that way at all. There's enough business to go round. It's a networking opportunity and we both love networking. So, and he's a very good friend of mine. So it just makes sense. And do you know what I've always said, because I've had business partners in the past as well, and I've always said, people will naturally be drawn to a certain person. So if that person is your person, go to them. If I'm your person, come to me. If Kim's your person, go to Kim. Like people need to go to be with the people that they're drawn to. And I feel like if a person is not your person, that's okay. And I saw you did a social media post about this, which I saw and you were like, look, we are who we are. I know my worth, I know what I can offer. And if a person doesn't see that and they're not my person, that's okay. And I think that that's such a strong message to put out there, which is, you know, people will come to you if they want to, there doesn't need to be anything beyond that. It's just this idea of just being authentic, real, and just building all together and being great. So I'm very excited for you, Kim, like really excited. So, please help. saw you did a hard hat to heels as well. I saw that. Yeah, you're going for it. Like it's fabulous. So I wish you all the best with that. I think it's going to be incredible. And then just to finish off, so property disaster, property mishap I said was coming your way. So what are your thoughts about this? Okay, so there's somebody that I know actually having thought about this, bought a property at auction and the solicitors had actually made a fundamental mistake where the left -hand side of the house is not actually part of the title. So they've now been left with a property that whilst it's left, they don't actually fully own the whole property and it can only be sold now to a cash buyer. So that has been a very costly mistake for them. And also, yeah, unfortunately, I've got a client at the moment who's doing a very lovely development of a block of flats in a semi -commercial unit down south. And they've just been broken into with their white goods all stolen. So, which is really sad. But one of these things that happen, I think, you know, when we talk about things that blindside you, you think things are going well on a development or things come up. And I think stuff like that, you know, seeing the impact on them. they've managed to get over that. It's kind of full steam ahead now. So yeah, again, you hear about that a lot though, unfortunately, on development sites. Do you know, you too, how many times I have heard people say all the white goods got stolen. And it's like, I wonder if they're just running down the road with a washing machine or a Hoover, someone like someone nicked a Hoover from someone's the other day. And I'm like, you almost feel like are these desperate times in the UK for people breaking in and stealing the white goods? Yeah, it's mad. It's mad. But I hear lots and lots of these stories and I love them. I think they're the best bit of the pod just to be like, right. Tell me something juicy that's going on. But Kim, I've loved having you on. I just think you're a breath of fresh air. And I think it's brilliant to hear a female broker come on in the finance industry and just say, look guys, here's all the information that you need. We're gonna give you some really top tips, but also I'm gonna create some really funny like music videos and silly things and still win awards and still boss life. And I just... really like what you represent in the industry. And I think you and Roz are a force to be reckoned with. I'm so excited to see what goes on and I just wish you all the best. Thank you so much. This has been awesome. Thank you for having me as well. I've loved it. And yeah, hopefully I can be part of your women's retreat when you do it in the future. Yeah, I'd love to have you. Absolutely. And then Kim, if people wanted to get in touch with you for a bit of information, of course, to get you as a broker, where could people find you, please? Oh gosh, LinkedIn's probably the biggest thing that I do. If not Instagram, either Vibe or Kim McGinley. So yeah, you'll find me on there. Amazing. Thank you so much. And if you want to get in touch with me, I'm Athena Dobson, underscore official. We are girls and property on Instagram and I'm girls and property pods at gmail .com. Also keep an eye out because I am launching the girls and property community as well, which is really exciting, which is going to be taking in between the, all the retreats that we can stay in touch, stay up to date and have some amazing deep dives with expert speakers as well. So watch this space. Um, Kim, thank you so much again. I hope. you. enjoys their Monday. Go smash it guys and we'll speak to you soon. Take care. Bye.