27: Breastfeeding aches & pains, pelvic floor health and beyond with Katherine Baquie from The FitNest Mama Podcast

What happens when we start taking care of our bodies and minds during pregnancy and after childbirth? Kath Baquie, a women's physiotherapist and the founder of FitNest Mama, joins us to share her unique insights.

In this enlightening conversation, we discuss the real post-birth challenges and how they can affect your breastfeeding journey.  Kath also shares some practical strategies for breastfeeding moms, including the art of lying down to breastfeed—a real game-changer for many mothers.

As Kath passionately tells us, investing in pelvic health and making adjustments to our exercise routine after childbirth can have long-term positive impacts. We also explore easy exercises for moms because even small movements can help us feel better. So, join us for this heartfelt discussion and learn why taking time for ourselves as new mothers is not just important, it's essential.

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Kath Baquie is an Australian mum of 3 young girls, a physiotherapist for women, and owner of FitNest Mama, an online community which provides new and expecting mothers with the exercises, support & resources they need to move from the physical aches & pains of pregnancy, the weakness felt after birth, to strong bodies and minds so that they can get back to doing what they love with a bubba by their side (whether or not that’s running around with the kids at the park, or running the next marathon).

Kath also has a podcast, the FitNest Mama Podcast, where each week she dives into all things pregnancy care, childbirth, and postnatal recovery.

Kath was so generous and is offering listeners of this podcast 7 free days in her Fitnest community - click here to take advantage of this opportunity. 

Want to learn more from me?
Watch my free, instant access workshop: 
Designing Your Pathway to Toddler Breastfeeding Mastery

Grab your free guide to say "No" to the feed while still saying "yes" to the need at  www.ownyourparentingstory.com/guide

Love this episode?!  Shoot me a DM over on Instagram @own.your.parenting.story and tell me all about it. <3

Transcript

Jenna: 0:29

In today's podcast episode, I interview Kath Bukhwe, who is an Australian mom of three young girls. She's a physiotherapist for women and the owner of Fitness Mama, an online community that provides new and expecting moms with the exercises, support and resources they need to move from the physical aches and pains of pregnancy and the weakness felt after birth to strong bodies and minds so that they can get back to doing what they love with their baby by their side, whether or not that's running around the park with their kids or running the next marathon. Kath also has a podcast, the Fitness Mama podcast, where each week she dives into all things pregnancy care, childbirth and postnatal recovery. Kath was very generous and is offering listeners of this podcast seven free days in her fitness community. If you're interested, you can find the link in the show notes.

Jenna: 1:16

In this conversation, we get real about the challenges that we face as breastfeeding moms when it comes to taking care of our physical bodies and recovering and healing from pregnancy and labor and delivery. The best part is that, while Kath doesn't shy away from the truth of what our bodies have gone through and what it takes to feel strong and confident again, she also understands what real life looks like as a breastfeeding mom. She shares practical, doable strategies to start feeling better today that don't involve hours at the gym. Kath, it's so wonderful to have you on the podcast today. I think that the support that you offer moms is really, really invaluable and just so so needed. I'd love to hear from you how you got into not just physiotherapy but supporting moms in this transition time from pregnancy into postpartum and the pelvic floor aspect and all those pieces. I'd love to hear more about your story.

Kath: 2:20

Oh, thanks so much, jenna, for the chat today. It's really exciting to be able to talk and this is an area I just love. So, yeah, when I first started I think most people when they start physiotherapy you only hear about the sports physio. Well, I did. I only knew about sports physio and I didn't have any idea what I wanted to do at school. So I got into physiotherapy. So that was that.

Kath: 2:44

But I soon discovered here in Australia we've got Aussie rules, football, which is played in winter, and my first job was as a physio student sports trainer, and I had to get onto that football field in the middle of winter. There was horizontal rain and I was massaging these sweaty hamstrings and I thought this is not what I signed up for. What is this? So I soon realized it was a sports side of physio. Perhaps wasn't my jam, and that's when I had an elective in a women's health clinic and I discovered this whole side of women's health physio. So I was this young, 20 year old, but I just loved chatting to all the pregnant moms and helping them exercise and my my career. I did do a bit of hospital work. I could fit everything, but then it was when I had my first baby that I I had always worked part time in a women's health clinic. I never gave that up.

Kath: 3:42

And then, when I had my first baby, I thought, oh my gosh, there's so much. I don't know this is. I'm a physio and I've always like, worked, you know, doing Pilates classes and I was like this is just rocked my world. I had no idea what had happened to my body. So then I went on to do postgraduate training in pelvic floor rehabilitation, because there's this whole other side, yeah, and it's just so beautiful because you're not just helping, you know, not that there's anything wrong with sports physio, but you know, helping people get better by Saturday so that they can play their sporting game, like this stuff with women's health physio, you know, we're helping women not leak when they're coughing and sneezing, being able to lift their children without hurting, being able to run around with their kids at the park, while, you know, feeling confident and not going to leak. So I just found this was this was my jam. It was just I loved the whole area.

Jenna: 4:41

Yeah, and I think it's like it's just it's meaningful, it matters. There's so many women that like become grandparents and they're still having the pelvic floor issues, you know. So I'm like it serves people for like such a long, like just that their life changes right, Like it's really really important work. I think, and I've heard I don't know how it is in Australia, but I've heard that in physio, in school for physio, you get like a like maybe a two hour lecture on pelvic floor health, Like it's very, very minimal. So I think that it's really important that there's there's women like you out there that are choosing to get the education and learn more about it, so that we all can. You know, I think that that's a really important piece.

Kath: 5:27

Yeah, and it's an exciting area because in the past, people didn't talk about pelvic floor issues like, oh, I've got sex pain when I have sex, oh, I'm not going to talk to anyone about that, or I'm leaking when I cough, sneeze, or better, keep that quiet. Whereas now we're beginning to talk about it, where there's more research and there's more awareness. So it is a really exciting phase because I think women are starting to realize more that they don't have to put up with these issues and they shouldn't put up with these issues, because there's lots of treatment options available. But, having said that, it's still an area we need to talk more about. So it's great we're chatting today?

Jenna: 6:02

Yeah, totally. So I know that you. I mean, I've listened to your podcast and your Instagram and I couldn't believe I actually just started following you. I knew you were following me, but I would just go and look for you to scroll through your page and then I was like couldn't find you and I realized I wasn't following you. So I every time I looked at your stuff, I was intentionally going to your page to scroll through it. Isn't that hilarious.

Kath: 6:29

Instagram. Even if you follow someone, you don't see this stuff all the time.

Jenna: 6:33

Anyway, it's true, yeah, it's true. I love your like quick exercises and it's also just really practical. I think that that's a really fun thing about a lot of times we talk about like breastfeeding and postpartum and there's all these different things, but what I love about like the pelvic health, the side of things and the physio side of things, is like here, do this stretch Feel better right now, right Like. Do this Like support your body, like right now, in this moment, and then for the long term as well? So and I know that something that you cover is like the aches and pains that happen through pregnancy and then postpartum and then breastfeeding, and there's so many factors the hormones and you know all these things that are happening that cause these things. But I'd love for, yeah, to hear your wisdom on that, particularly in the breastfeeding realm.

Kath: 7:30

Yeah, and you're right, aches and pains with breastfeeding it's, it's big, and you can understand why. Like your, your body's changed during pregnancy. Then you've had this baby, no matter if you've had a caesarean birth or a genital birth. Like your body has changed so much, there's weakness in these muscles and then we're suddenly learning a whole new skill like breastfeeding. We're perhaps in a different position that we've never been before. It's a tricky posture. You're learning a new skill, so it's a sustained posture too. You're there for ages and you know what's.

Kath: 8:07

What might start off as a light weight within an hour, what was light, only three kilograms now feels like 10 kilograms, right. So yeah, it's. It's a great one to talk about because, again, women I think we're we're so busy being mums that if we notice we're achy and sore, we sort of ignore it, and then we ignore it, and then it's not until it gets really bad that it's affecting us every moment, day to day, and it's affecting our ability. Then we seek help. So it's great to chat because there's so many practical strategies to either help prevent aches and pains or nip them in the bud, like manage them early, and then we can also talk about the long-term management too. So that's exciting.

Jenna: 8:53

Yeah, and I just want to say too, from like the breastfeeding side of things, that your physiology, like the way that you're holding your body, especially if you're in pain, like that tension, your baby picks up on that tension and it can cause additional tension in that little baby and it can cause poor latching when you're stressed out and you're holding even if you're like holding the quote proper position, but your shoulders are all tense and they're up at your ears and they're doing other things. And so I see so many times that moms will just like power through or like just like ignore their body, telling them that they're in pain and thinking that it's serving their baby. But it's not Like if you're in pain and if you're tense, that's a problem. And it's not just a problem because you're suffering, but your baby, like it will affect your baby as well. So I think it's just really, really important for so many, yeah, for just so many reasons, and it's a real cycle, isn't it?

Kath: 9:52

So you're in pain and then you're holding your posture differently, your baby picks up on it, and then you're in more pain because you're even more tense. So it's like a vicious downward spiral yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Kath: 10:10

Yeah, so we can. Let's go through the causes first, because I feel we need to sort of touch on the causes and then we could go through some management options, and we spoke about it a little bit in terms of birth, no pregnancy. First of all, let's take a step back. A lot of women during pregnancy their normal exercise routine stops, whether or not it's nauseousness, fatigue, maybe they've had pelvic girdle pain, they're achy, they're sore, maybe they're working full time. So our baseline of strength is probably already reduced by the time we get to the end of pregnancy. Then we have birth, which is huge, big, massive. Our body goes through a lot and then we're dealing with a new baby. So it's like one thing on top of the other. So you're dealing with a new baby, you're learning new things and then, as they start to grow, your baby's weighing more, they're heavier, the demands on the sling that you use to carry the baby and no longer you can use because it's too heavy on your back. So it's like one thing after the other and they sort of have a cumulative effect. And that's why I guess discussing some of these management strategies as soon as you can start the better. But let's say you're two years down the track. It's never too late. Like it would be great to start there.

Kath: 11:30

And it's interesting, isn't it? Because so often you have a baby and they say, oh no, running for 12 weeks, get back into running, wait three months and then you can get back into running. Or you might not even be told that at the six week medical check they might say, yep, you're fine, See you later. So that's what it's like here in Australia. So it's very variable.

Kath: 11:57

So some women, like one you might have one mom listening today who at six months has struggled to leave the house, has had a really you know baby that's been unsettled, she hasn't been sleeping well, it's been hard to get out and about and even go for a walk. So that might be one moment six months. And then you've got someone else who has been consistently walking, has started back up Pilates, who you know gets out and about, who's feeling amazing. So you might have the same person sorry, same time point at six months, two different people, totally different spectrums. So that's why I love to always think about let's start at the baseline. So no matter where you are like, forget about how many months postpartum you are, let's start at your baseline? Yeah, and it's interesting with do you know what the guidelines are in America for walking after birth? Are there any guidelines given?

Jenna: 12:58

to you. Yeah, I'm actually in Canada and I am not sure about what I mean, it's just so. I just feel like, like it's just not talked about, like I had I had a vaginal birth in a cesarean and I mean like, yeah, it's crazy, if you ever had like a like a major abdominal surgery, if you had a major surgery like any type there'd be, like you would be going to physio, like that would be like a like a requirement. You have knee surgery, you have whatever, like you're doing those things, like you literally have your abdominal wall like cut open, right, and all everything's moved around and all the stuff, and then they're just like, oh yeah, okay, try not to. You know, don't lift anything heavier than your baby for six weeks and don't think about driving before four weeks or whatever. Right, I mean I have to be like I kind of wish I had a position in yeah, and this is you're right.

Kath: 13:45

So any surgery, pretty much. They have a rehab plan, which is fantastic. You have a knee reconstruction? Yep, I'm going to have a rehab plan before I get back into playing football or whatever it is post hip replacement. I have a rehab plan like this is it's, it's acknowledged, which is great, and this is what I like. I'm on a mission to change post birth, because we I argue that having a baby is a bigger impact to the body than a knee reconstruction, absolutely. So anyone sending a message if you disagree, that's what I would definitely argue just because it's not just physical, it's hormonal, it's like every aspect of our life.

Kath: 14:27

So, yes, this notion of rehab is amazing. So I recommend women and I know a lot of your listeners over this six week period but they might have future babies down the track. I'm five minutes extra each week. So in the first week, five minute bursts of walking and it doesn't mean five minutes and only five minutes for the whole day, but five minutes and come back and lie down, just fight around the block, around the house, around the hospital, whatever. It is, just short little walks.

Kath: 14:57

Second week 10 weeks, 10 minutes. Third week 15 minutes. Fourth week 20,. Fifth week 25. And then by the time you get to six weeks you're at 30 minutes and again, it doesn't mean just the one burst 60 minutes, 30 minutes. You could do that a few times a day if you wanted. But the thing is with birth vaginal birth or a caesarean birth everything's stretched and it's not just the muscles that are weak, it's the connected tissue and the soft tissue structure and we want it's like an elastic band that's been stretched and we want that natural recoil. And if we are standing and we're up against gravity, we've got the weight of gravity sitting on top of our pelvic floor muscles and they've stretched 300.

Kath: 15:39

If you've had a vaginal birth, they've stretched 300% to let the baby come through. They stretch three times their resting length. That's huge. I think the hamstrings will strain, they will get injured. At 20% their resting length 20, whereas pelvic floor is it's perfectly built for the job. It has a capacity stretched to 300. But what that means is you could be the strongest woman in the world, but if you've just had a vaginal birth, everything's just stretched. So you probably isn't in your best interest to go for long periods of walks Walks, because it's when you're setting yourself up for potential issues. So I love a graduated approach. That's what I'm all about.

Jenna: 16:25

Yeah, I think that's like a really important piece because so many women I mean, it's like what I was doing this by this day and I was doing that by that day, and it's not trying to judge anyone. But at the same time there is this like we've just minimized how big this event was. Right, like in that a graduated approach and taking your time with it and understanding and honoring, I think, and nourishing. Right Like honoring what your body's gone through, and then let's, yeah, that rehabilitation.

Kath: 16:53

It's just so so important and I think there's no gray area. You're either feeling great or something happens and you're not. And I had this exact experience. I had great pregnancy for my first baby. I've been going for long walks.

Kath: 17:08

I had a pretty good birth and by two weeks postpartum I hadn't done heaps of walking, but I went and caught up with my friend at the local cafe, so it was a 20 minute walk, so I didn't think that was very long. That's fine. I had a coffee. I then went to the local supermarket, popped some bread and milk under the pram and walked home again, and by the time I was walking home it was three hours later. So three hours even though I'd been sitting, and everything but three hours of gravity, all the weight sitting on top of my pelvic floor, and I suddenly started in the last 50 meters before I got home.

Kath: 17:42

I started feeling this and if you've heard me talk on a podcast, you might have heard me say this before, but I started feeling this heaviness sitting on top of my pelvic floor. I said to my husband I feel like I've got a ton of bricks. I feel like my guts are going to fall out, like it was this horrible sensation and I'd had no symptoms. That's a symptom of prolapse, and I had no symptoms before that time and the only thing I'd done was be up against gravity for too long. I, my weakest link, which was my pelvic floor, couldn't handle that extra stretch and suddenly I became symptomatic. So that's where the power of horizontal rest and lying down and this will take us into breastfeeding the power of lying down is amazing because it helps to take and even if you've had a caesarean birth, helps to take gravitational forces off all those structures and helps them to rest and get that natural recoil that we talked about.

Jenna: 18:36

Yeah, I'm having like flashbacks to my, to my postpartum experience. I'm like, oh my gosh, like I felt like I was fine and then it was. I remember two months postpartum with my daughter, like I went to like an outdoor thing and then I came like I was like we need to go home now, like I was fine, and then I was like no, like I'm I think I'm going to die, like I'm in so much pain, like you know, and I just, yes, but yeah, I've forgotten about that. And then it's like, yep, I do understand that. So so much.

Jenna: 19:04

Sorry, yeah, so you're talking about horizontal, horizontal rest and breastfeeding.

Kath: 19:10

How do we possibly do horizontal rest when we're busy, where we might have a toddler running around? And that's where horizontal rest for breastfeeding. I think horizontal breastfeeding amazing. I have three children.

Kath: 19:26

I could not lie down to breastfeed for the life of me with my first baby or my second baby, but for my third, when I was pregnant, I said to my husband if I don't master this lying down, I don't know how I'm going to like. Yeah, I don't know how I'm going to survive. So in hospital I actually had to ask midwives can you help me do this lying down? Because it was really interesting.

Kath: 19:49

The first two births they'd only ever helped me with breastfeeding and sitting. They'd never once said hey, let's lie down and try breastfeeding. So I actually had to ask them and I know it was my third baby and I was more confident, whereas my first baby I had no idea what I was doing and I finally mastered the breastfeeding lying down and it was a game changer, like just having because there's no other time during the day I probably would have had the ability to lie down with toddlers running around. So yeah, if you're listening today and you're finding a difficult lie down to breastfeed, keep persevering, get help, because that's my first massive tip to help with aches and pains and just your overall breastfeeding recovery.

Jenna: 20:31

Yeah, and I know a lot of moms who listen to this are breastfeeding currently and pregnant, and there's like two fold is like lay down with your toddler, like to like to breastfeed, but also I think a lot of people don't. I think that this is just a great place to mention this. They're like, how am I going to do this with two kids? But like if you are tandem feeding and breastfeeding your toddler, when you have your newborn laying down with one on one side and one on the other side, like on your bed, you put on Netflix, you do whatever. Like it is like the reset button that you didn't know that you needed, like it's like this is amazing, like we can just hang out right here and your toddler's quiet for a minute and it's so good. So like I love the idea like that. I've always loved that. But the idea that you are taking that gravitational pull off of your pelvic floor and that you're doing all these wonderful things for your body at that same time, like wow, like yeah.

Kath: 21:30

And especially if you're pregnant. I always say that to my pregnant moms too If you can have five, it doesn't need to be lying down for hours. I'm not saying after birth lie down all day. I'm like five minute bursts when you're pregnant or you know, just whatever you can manage. And like if you're talking to someone on the phone, lie down, and I don't mean sit with your feet up, that's not the same. We want to actually get that. You know pelvis horizontal, so lying on your side on the couch, or yeah, just a little snippets here and there. It can make a big difference.

Jenna: 22:02

Yeah, that's so great.

Kath: 22:03

Yeah, and then, once you've got a toddler and you're breastfeeding a toddler, that's also great, isn't it? Because you're not having to hold them up and yeah.

Jenna: 22:15

Right, yeah, a lot of times, yeah, with breastfeeding toddlers, what I find is that they want to breastfeed in all kinds of positions, for good or bad, yeah, and there can be like little feet on your face or wherever they are because they're going crazy. But I know that when and just like you've talked about, you're learning the skill of breastfeeding, your body's just gone through all of these massive changes with pregnancy or everything's shifting to accommodate this growing baby inside of you and to get ready to have this baby come out the birth canal and then you go through this big event of giving birth and that's like just you know you're talking about, you know the pelvic floor stretching 300 times, like that's incredible. And then now you're breastfeeding and you're acquiring the skill and you're learning it and you're contorting your body in ways that you probably shouldn't be. And I think it's so true and I'm glad you brought up that like you didn't learn how to lay down to breastfeed, when that is like we call it, like the biologically or, sorry, like laid back breastfeeding, but it's also called like biological breastfeeding because it's it's a really great way to let your baby, for so, so many reasons, and it can really facilitate a really great latch doing that, lying down, but now I'm losing my turn of thought. Anyways, we've gone through this big story, this big journey, right, but you've done, you've contorted your body. Oh yeah, we don't necessarily know how to do that.

Jenna: 23:44

So then we're contorting our body into all these positions, trying to look like the picture of the breastfeeding mom on the wall in the hospital.

Jenna: 23:51

And you know, the nurses are like shove that pillow in here and hold the baby, like don't like this, not like that, you know. And so by the time you're done, you feel like you're a twisted pretzel and you're like in all of these different crazy ways. And then, and then you don't like, you don't stop right, like that's now the skill that you've acquired, that's how you've learned it. Your neural pathways have now wired to hold your body in this position. That's really uncomfortable for a lot of moms and they value breastfeeding so much that they're just going to push through the pain. And now we're dealing with an 18 month old that wants to, you know, literally have their butt up in the air and their foot on one shoulder and their hands on your toes while they're breastfeeding, but your body is still all twisted. And so you've got all of these like aches and pains. So that was my super long way of saying like it just like it doesn't stop Right, like it just keeps going and going, and going.

Kath: 24:44

Yeah, it changes, doesn't it? And I remember being so excited whenever my babies got old enough or big enough that I didn't have to hold them with my second arm and they could actually go on my lap and then still reach my boob, like that to me was like hello, lugia, I've got a free hand, like a free arm. How amazing is this? Yeah, yeah. And with the whole breastfeeding journey it's really interesting, because I used to recommend, you know, getting your breastfeeding station and making sure your feet on the floor, keep your knees at 90 degrees, hips at 90 degrees, so that your pelvis is in a nice position, you're not slouched. Get your elbows at 90 degrees, you know, whether on its armrests or pillows. Bring the baby to you rather than you going down to the baby. So that's, I guess, the traditional gold standard breastfeeding posture. It's a big one is because we don't want to be going down to the baby, because it's just hard, and we don't want to be necessarily lifting the baby up to us because that's also hard on our body. But whatever, but it's.

Kath: 25:48

There's two things I want to say here. First of all, that recommendation, I think, goes out the window, like I think that's good to get started when you're learning the new skill and you're having to focus 100% on the latch, if you're wanting to do it in sitting. But then, as you said, they start to get older and you start to move and you might be breastfeeding on the ground and that's also really great for the body because you're moving around more. You're not in one sustained posture all the time. So if you're listening, I guess, and you're thinking well, what posture do I breastfeed my baby in? You want to do it in one that feels easiest on your body and that might be something that you need to work with someone to get. But big tip is and it'd be interesting to hear if you agree with this, jenna is, no matter what position you're in, to breastfeed your baby once they're latched, once they're comfortable, once they're feeding is to stop.

Kath: 26:41

And before you reach for your phone or whatever it is, take a deep breath and do a quick body scan from head to toe and have a quick think when am I holding areas of muscle tension? Are my shoulders up around my ears? Can I just drop them down a bit? Can I take some nice deep breaths? Can I relax through my hands and my fingers a little bit? Because it's amazing, we're so focused on and I get it, I totally remember so focused on getting our baby to latch, and then they're latched and you're like, all right, I'm not going to move a muscle, they're on and I'm going to stay here.

Kath: 27:15

But if we can just take a moment to take a few deep breaths and just focus in on our body, because really sometimes all it takes is just a deep breath to lose that muscle tension in our body, and I'm sure if anyone's ever had a headache in the past, they probably noticed they start to lift up their shoulders and they start to tense, they feel really tense through their neck muscles and they're just naturally unconsciously holding a muscle tension that if we're aware of, we can let it go.

Kath: 27:43

So that would be another big tip.

Jenna: 27:45

That is something I've say all the time that we have all these trackers to track our baby's peas and poops and whether they were on the left side or the right side, but we need one to track ourselves and to track our body tension. And so I encourage, I use a SIFT, which is like an analogy that Dr Dan Siegel uses. So it's like body sensations is the S, and then images, feelings and thoughts, and just check in with yourself, Like every time you're going to jot down on the list. It's like do that body scan go through?

Jenna: 28:17

You know, I often give the analogy of like not like big, heavy bags of sand, but almost like just slightly heavy bean bags on your shoulders, that you just feel them like like melting down right and like let that kind of like come down because it affects everything. I mean, we can talk about the hormonal side of things, but if your body is all stressed out and tense, like you're not going to be like releasing oxytocin, which is what's needed for a let down, and you know like all of those things are what's needed in order to facilitate the breastfeeding experience too. So it's so intertwined in that way, it's so important. So, yes, I 100% agree with that.

Kath: 28:56

Yeah, and look, it can be sometimes the easiest said the done, because if you're you are in pain and discomfort, you do hold your body differently. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, but yeah, should we go? Let's go through some tips. But if you are a 100%, what can you do? So the first one would be short bursts of walking. So, no matter what, like, find out where you are at your stage of postpartum, what's appropriate for your stage of recovery, let's get out, let's move our body, let's go for a walk and just be a walk around the block. It might just be walking to the back garden, like whatever it is. This is moving our body on a regular basis, so it's easy for you, so that you can have that consistency. The second one would be a horizontal feeding that we talked about, checking out your breastfeeding station, doing that body scan. But then, if you specifically have aches and pains, there are some little strategies that you could trial. But I just want to say if you're in pain, don't persevere, go and seek help. Life's too short to be in pain and it can affect so many facets of our life. It can affect how well we're sleeping, how grouchy we are with the children. It's not fun being in pain. So, yeah, that would be a huge tip. But a few easy stretches before a feed and it could be so quick and simple as just a few shoulder rolls or a few dropping your head down to your shoulder and having a beautiful neck stretch, or reaching your arms up over you and over to the side, or putting one hand on your opposite. Here I am demonstrating it and I know it's a podcast. Check out my Instagram page. I do have a few reels with those stretches, breastfeeding stretches, so putting hand on your opposite knee and rotating around to the side. That's a beautiful one too, and it could take literally a minute or two, but yeah, it doesn't need to take a long time. So stretches before a feed and stretches after a feed can be really helpful in keeping those niggles at bay when combined with walking and your breastfeeding.

Kath: 31:07

So there's the three big tips, but ultimately and we've touched on this I think it's so important that we address the underlying issues, and that's the fact that you're probably weak in your core muscles, your abdominals, your back muscles. You know we've talked about the fact that your body changed so much in pregnancy there was childbirth, like we invest so much into our bodies to produce this beautiful baby, and I just hope that every woman out there is able to reinvest back into their bodies at some stage. And it doesn't need to be expensive or time consuming. It can be really simple exercises and stretches to help you feel better. And there's such a close correlation between physical health and mental health isn't there. So if you're feeling exhausted and tired, you know, let's say, you've got a baby who's really unsettled and you're not sleeping really well the last thing you probably feel like doing is going driving to the gym, like getting a baby set, or driving to the gym doing a workout and coming home Like it's just well.

Kath: 32:17

For me it wasn't on my radar, it wasn't important and that's so. That's like why I created my online workout program Because I just realized at some stage in our life I think there's so much to be said and look, everyone's different, so find what works for you. But for me it was being able to do 10 minutes of quality exercises and stretches in the back garden with my toddlers next to me in the sunshine, like it was. It doesn't need to be complicated. It can be fun for you, your baby, your toddler, but find something that works for you. That will help you reinvest back into your body, because the stats are real. We're talking about pelvic health. One in three women who've had a baby have some type of incontinence. One in two women who've had a baby have some type of prolapse. So this is 50%.

Kath: 33:10

Yeah, it's just a real woman out there and yeah, this is what happens with pregnancy and childbirth.

Kath: 33:16

And then we there's a bit of a lull where not as many women experience issues, and then we get to menopause and we all experience these issues again. So this is a time period in our life where I really think we need like, especially if you want to have future babies again, and then menopause is on our doorstep, we like it or not. So we this is a period of our time where we can reinvest back into our body so that we're not saying, oh, like all my like, all my clients, so many of my clients if I had a dollar for every time a client said to me in the clinic, I wish I had known about this sooner or I wish I'd done something about this sooner. So it's a beautiful area because I think, as you said at the start, you, you get the straightaway, you get the positive impacts, like you feel better, you get that endorphin hit you not, hopefully, you're not achy or sore, so you get the immediate effects, but then you get those long term benefits too.

Jenna: 34:15

So I think it's so important and I think, too, when we're, a lot of times we feel that pain but we're so conditioned to ignore it or to push it down or to feel like we're not worth investing in, like we'll, you know, go through that, and I think that it's just I kind of said this before, but it's important to reiterate that when we're doing that, we think that we're like somehow benefitting our kids by, like you know, saying like, oh well, time and money, blah, blah, blah for myself, right, like it can, it can feel, like that, right.

Jenna: 34:46

But that we know that when we're numbing ourselves to our own body sensations and we're like I'm just going to ignore that, I'm not going to think about that, I'm just, you know, that we're actually impacting, just like you were saying, our own mental and emotional well being, because if you numb yourself to your body sensations, you're also numbing yourself to your emotional sensations, and so you're actually numbing yourself to your ability to express and feel emotion, and research research has shown that when we do that, as parents that are, we're actually numbing our children as well, that we're like that our ability to connect with our own bodies and to feel our own body sensations and to be present with what we're experiencing, which, if it's pain, is hard, and I get it, but when we're present to it, then we're going to do something about it.

Jenna: 35:36

Then we're going to say, okay, like let's work at this, but when we ignore it, we think we're doing something good, but actually we're stopping our kids even from experiencing their own body sensations and, just like you were saying, the mental and the physical are intertwined, so they're also numbing them to their emotions, to feeling joy and feeling all of the full spectrum, right? So it's really, really sound.

Kath: 36:00

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because some women might not just be ignoring it, like it might be at the forefront of their mind, but it's just on the bottom of the to do list and I get it Exactly.

Kath: 36:09

When you're feeling tired, when you're learning and when you just, you know you don't even have time in the day to go to the toilet by yourself, like how are you going to fit in a workout? So, if you're listening to this, like last thing I want is for you to feel more overwhelmed, like there's an extra thing on you to do this. And that's why, personally, I found like it was a real shift between pregnancy before I had kids, where my idea of exercise was going to the gym for an hour, you know, having a shower, picking up some nice yummy dinner on my way home, cooking it up, you know, so it'll take a few hours. Or going for a walk with a friend for an hour, having a coffee afterwards. So my whole notion of what a workout was or what exercise meant to me had to change. Because, as a kid with children and babies soon realized if I wait until I have an hour to an hour and a half to drive somewhere, do a workout and come home, it's not going to happen and I don't have the energy for that and it's expensive and I don't want to just go. So, yeah, so that's like the driver, as I said, getting like the people that join fitness mama. They're the ones that say I don't have time to exercise and I want to be able to do this with my kid at home. So it's not an extra thing on the to do list, because that's the last thing I want to be doing is adding extra stuff to the to do list. So that's why whoever's listening today find what works for you.

Kath: 37:34

Find what lights you up and feels easy for you. Because if easy for you means five minutes a day, then you're more likely to do it and be consistent. And then before you know, it might be 10 minutes a day. The next minute next day might be 30 minutes and then you might have a bad night's sleep and you might go back to five minutes of stretches or nothing, like it jumps around and that's okay. This is the season of our life.

Kath: 37:59

So working out what we find is easy and what we like and I know not all women, I know like I love exercise, but I know it's not the same for all women, so and that's okay like finding what you wouldn't mind doing. It doesn't have to fill you a joy, but finding what's easy for you, because I haven't met anyone who has said they felt worse after exercise, or felt worse after going for a five minute walk, like generally, it helps us feel better, right? Yeah, and I say this to all my mums like after this session, I want you feeling doesn't matter how tired you are or how achy you are, I want you feeling rejuvenated, refreshed, not depleted, not exhausted, not achy. So, yeah, listening today, just find out what lights you up, what's easy and what can rejuvenate you and help replenish your body instead of depleting it further. Because, as mums, we're depleted, right, so we don't want to be depleting ourselves further. So it's a real.

Jenna: 38:59

It's tricky, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, for me I can't like I did. I have gone to the gym in my life and done that kind of thing, but like working out was never something. That was like this is what I love. But I will put on music and dance with my kids in the kitchen sometimes when I just need to move my body and we do the goofiest moves and they love it. And also I'll put on a show for them and I'll be in the living room with them and I put on some like Bluetooth headphones and I'll put like on a quick like YouTube yoga or something, and just do some stretches, you know, in the living room and it's so cute.

Jenna: 39:34

My kids love it too. They're, they'll come in and they'll do it. My daughter will make me she's she's six, so she'll like make little invites and she'll be like Nora's yoga class and then I go out there and she's got. She's like this is the world pose. I was like, hey, you know, it's so cute. She teaches her little yoga classes. So, as somebody who didn't even like I would never say the exercise was like something that like lit me up and I was like super excited about like absolutely final small moments. To see my kids enjoying it too is really, really fun.

Kath: 40:03

Yeah, and you know it might not be perfect, you might get interrupted 10 times, but you know what that's okay, and so I think if we take away that notion, it's got to be perfect Then that helps too. In Australia we have the Wiggles. I don't know if you've ever heard of the Wiggles. It's really popular. Yeah, okay, right, I would do a Wiggles workout. So whenever they're singing and dancing, I would dance with my kids and we'd all dance together and then, when they were talking, I'd do some squats or tricep dips on the chair, so I'd do just a couple of little exercises and that that was always fun.

Kath: 40:39

So, yeah, working it in with your lifestyle is an amazing tip. A bit of a little, I do just a caveat there. No, like, working out what works for you and your lifestyle Amazing, massive tip. But I would love for you all to consider just our weakest links are abdominals and pelvic floor. They're the ones that have been really affected by pregnancy and childbirth. So, whatever you end up doing, just make sure you're including a couple of those pelvic floor and abdominal exercises, core exercises. And if you don't know what to do that's appropriate for your stage, come and check out my Instagram page at fitnessmama, I've got lots of postnatal core exercises that are safe and appropriate.

Jenna: 41:25

And I would say we've talked about this, like the knowledge kind of deficit that we have around, like our pelvic health and all that kind of stuff. So I mean I personally went to see a pelvic floor specialist, like you know and all that kind of stuff, postpartum and it was really important to me to learn about it. But I will say too that it can sound kind of intimidating, like oh, but once I kind of like learned about it, it was like oh, that's not too hard to integrate into and a lot of the stretches and the moves are things that I was already familiar with. It was just doing them in a way that, first of all, understanding where I was at with my own like public floor health, so that I wasn't doing things that would like cause damage or make things worse, right, but then it was like oh, doing that in a way, like with just a slightly different posture, whatever, to kind of like support, support that too.

Kath: 42:12

And breathing is like a really huge part. Yeah, and that awareness, it's awesome, that's great.

Jenna: 42:18

Yeah.

Kath: 42:19

So well in some countries sorry, I was just going to say in some countries they offer a six week postpartum pelvic floor check to all women who've had a baby. Let's do it. We need to keep talking about it because I do think our governments need to get on board, because it costs the government well in continents costs the government billions of dollars every year in the healthcare system. So if we can be more proactive and preventative, then amazing.

Jenna: 42:49

Yeah, and having to get like a bladder sling or whatever and all these things like down the road because you've got all these issues right, like, and then much further and you're having big surgeries to repair prolapses and all these things that have gotten much worse because of just a lack of knowledge and a lack of support and a lack of all those pieces along the way too. Yeah, so I think that's so important, so important. So, kat, it was so wonderful to chat with you today. I'd love to hear if there's like maybe like just one message that you would just give to a mom who is listening and maybe feeling a little overwhelmed with life and kids and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of one thing that you would love to tell her.

Kath: 43:33

I think it would have to be like, as we mentioned before you know, you're reflecting on the fact that you've done an amazing thing producing this beautiful baby. Your body's done an amazing thing and even starting that thought process of how can I help my body now in its recovery process Like that's amazing. That thought process will get you thinking. You know, getting your partner on board and just thinking what's something easy that I can do today that will help me feel better, take out the overwhelm, like don't do anything crazy or expensive or difficult. Like what is easy for you to do today that will help you feel better inside out.

Kath: 44:19

You know we haven't talked about weight loss, this whole podcast episode which is great because for me this is all about that inner strength and building on that consistency and from that we achieve our goals. But we've got to really break it down and you know it's all well and good to talk about these things, but unless we're talking to the mum, who's actually in the thick of it she's in the thick of it, she's tired, like everything goes out the window. So what works for you today that can help you feel good, because you deserve it? So that would be my parting words.

Jenna: 44:53

Oh, yes, I love that. Yep, that's, yeah, check in and like I think that it is. I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but even just the way you're talking and how amazing it is that our bodies go through this, it's an honouring of your body, of what's every, everything that you've done and produced and gone through, and I think that that's just a really beautiful image for me to take away, even like, yeah, I'm going to honour my body for having done all this beautiful work and just take care of it, right.

Kath: 45:19

Yeah yeah it's beautiful I love it.

Jenna: 45:22

Well, it was so wonderful having you on today, Kat.

Kath: 45:25

Thank you so much, jenna. Absolute pleasure to chat. Could have chatted all day. Yeah, it was lovely. Thank you so much, you're so welcome.