I honestly like to say I got into it by accident, which is kind of funny, but also really true. I was working as a project officer in maternal and child health, like public health type work when my oldest was born.
And I thought, you know, like, I know everything. I'm good. Well I didn't know anything about sleep. I didn't prepare about sleep. I was totally blindsided by sleep. In the sense that, like, I knew babies woke and they'd feed my mom loved to tell us stories about us as littles and how bad my sister and I slept.
So I didn't, it's not like I came in, I think, like, most parents think, you know, they're going to sleep through the night. I was like, I'm never going to have a kid that sleeps through the night early. Like, that's not genetically possible. But I didn't really understand beyond that anything about sleep.
And so, I was really blindsided, not just by the demands of sleep and the ups and the downs, but also by sleep training and everyone sleep training and thinking that was the only way to handle sleep and that was very, very jarring to me. So, I kind of felt really isolated when it came to sleep, I felt like it was something I couldn't talk about with other parents, and so I had a, you know, a whole, like, journey of, of finding the resources that aligned with me and getting very fascinated by biologically normal sleep and what does it mean to actually support that in, like, modern days where we aren't very well supported as parents.
And then I quit my job and was staying home with my oldest and I wanted to do some teaching of classes or something. And so I started just kind of getting some certifications and that's actually how I got into lactation support. But I... I stumbled across a course about biologically normal sleep and I was like, Oh, this is cool.
And I took it and I fell in love and kind of shifted my whole work to, to be doing sleep support from that point moving forward. So it's kind of stumbled into it, kind of fell in love, kind of came from my own.
Lack of information and lack of support as a new parent.
I think what was interesting there you were talking about was that you're like, I kind of trust myself and I trust my kid, but I wasn't prepared to be in the culture that I was in and to feel so isolated and to feel like I couldn't have these conversations because People just didn't understand where I was coming from or, you know, there was a lot of opposition to the way that I was presenting things or the way I felt about things.
I find that super relatable.
Yeah. And you know how when you kind of bundle things together, you think because we're friends and because we agree on these things, we're obviously going to agree on parenting, right? And it's like, no, it doesn't work like that. I mean, I was among the first of my friends to have kiddos anyway.
But then you're like in meeting people and you, you get along with them so well and you're aligned on some things and it, it doesn't always translate. But I think in my head, I thought it would, right? We agree on these things, so we should agree on these things. It's like, not so much.
And I feel like topics that dominate your life as a new parent, so feeding and sleep are two, you'd be big ones. You do want some support in, in your, day to day life that is on the same page as you. Like, not everyone has to be. It's okay that we all have different journeys and different paths that we walk and things that we choose.
But it is good to have people that are on your same journey. You know, especially when that isn't what Most people
are doing right. And when we're talking about like stress, like that's a topic that comes up a lot for me. It's very like part of managing our stress. Well, is by having social connections that feel good and safe and also being able to, you know, delegate and share that load together.
So having those supports. So, so important. And I think that this is a great, great place to move into the topic for the day because. As much as we might have differing opinions and different different perspectives on how things happen and you were sharing about how your, you know, you were a quote bad sleeper and your siblings are bad sleepers and so you came into it with a certain mindset and, you know, a friend, it might not even be that like you might be philosophically kind of misaligned but if they have a child that just naturally is sleeping, quote, well, right, that that's It could create some dissonance, right?
And some, like, some difficulty to, like, in that conversation I'm fumbling through my words here, but the relationship, the relationship that you have with that person, you're just coming at things from two very different perspectives. So, I know in my work that there's a lot of parents that come and they're like, well, what is normal?
The shoulds are jumping in, right? Because maybe they have a friend who did sleep through the, like their baby's sleeping through the night from maybe like essentially from birth and they're like, well, my child is 19 months old and they're still waking. So my child must be. Bad. Wrong. I must be a horrible parent.
We must have to sleep train because sleep is so critically important. And all these narratives that kind of like come into us. And so even what I was hearing you saying at the beginning, right? The culture that we're in kind of infiltrates and we feel this like clash between perhaps what we feel intuitively is right or okay.
And then what we're being told these messages. So, yeah, I'd love to talk about, like, what is normal sleep in those first few years of life? Yeah,
and I think the thing that's really tricky is there's lots of different opinions and philosophies and things about how we support sleep, but what's normal is, you know, of course we always need more evidence, but we also have a pretty good idea of what's normal, and yet that information is still not in the mainstream.
Like, it's not what most parents are hearing, and that's just, it's so unfortunate because we hear a lot of really unrealistic things. And that creates a lot of pressure and stress and feelings of failure when it's like no your baby's sleeping like your baby or your toddler should be sleeping. And you were talking about sleeping through the night and I always think it's really interesting because when we're talking about sleeping through the night, we have to be like, what does that even mean?
That's the definition. Right? Because in the research, it's often six, five or six hours, maybe eight hours. And that's not what a lot of parents, I think, think of when they're thinking like, I want 10 to 12 hours of uninterrupted sleep and my baby not, or toddler not to need me. But then I also have parents sometimes coming to me and being like, Oh, my baby sleeps through the night.
I'm like, okay, tell me more about that. And they're like, yeah, they only wake up two times to feed. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like, I wouldn't call that sleeping through the night, but if they want to, cool. Like, you know, who am I to say what they should be calling it? But because their baby feeds quickly and goes back to sleep, they don't really see it as like a full wake up.
And I'm like, yeah. Baby's not really waking, so cool. Yeah, totally. So I think there's that piece, like, what does it even mean? And then there's, like, the norms, right? That, you know, as much as we would love most babies to sleep all night and not need us, or most toddlers, that's just not how we're biologically meant to sleep.
And that waking is common. And it is, you know, healthy, and it is normal, and it does change over the early years, so it's not like a linear path from You know, the classic newborn waking every two to three hours to these really long stretches, it's something that has ups and downs as baby and toddlers move through different developmental phases and different things happening in their life.
So we get these really wakeful periods, and then we get these lovely long stretches with, you know, at least some babies, and then we get these wakeful periods, and they're going to shift back and forth a lot over the early years as their patterns change.
Yeah, so when we're talking about that I feel like there's a different, a bunch of different areas that we can kind of like dig into and move into but I would love to hear, like, if we're talking about those first two years of life, can you give like a general kind of trajectory of how things move through?
Because I know you're talking about, it's not linear, it doesn't just like start at waking every two hours to by the time they're this point, you know, they're sleeping through the night and it happens in this very linear progression. Are there typical patterns or is it pretty random? Like are there certain things that we can expect to see where perhaps this is an area of time where there's more wakefulness or is it just like, hey, your child's just going to wake a lot and that's, that's how it goes.
Yeah,
so anytime your little one is having a period of rapid development, sleep tends to go kind of off the rails a bit, right? And that could look like a lot more waking, it could look like fighting, going to sleep, it could look like needing more support than they previously did. And so if you think about You know, there are some common times where lots of babies tend to cluster big developmental periods.
But there's also a wide range. And so, anytime, like, you know, little ones learning to roll, learning to sit up, learning to crawl, learning to cruise, learning to stand, learning to walk, learning, you know, having a big language explosion. These things are really going to likely derail sleep events, and we're going to see periods where they're, they're waking more.
So, I think that's the first thing to just keep in mind is that development shapes sleep, right? And, and big changes shape sleep, so they're starting a new daycare. Their sleep's probably going to go a little bit wonky for, you know, a couple weeks. You move, you know, their sleep's probably going to go wonky for a little bit.
Like, big changes like that, just like they affect us, well they affect littles. And a lot of times that comes out in, in their sleep.
So there's that, right? And then, and then there's like, okay, well, what, what, how many wakings are kind of typical? And that's where we kind of can look at the, the population based studies, the, the big studies that you know, are mostly rely, mostly relying on parental reports. So it's like, how much is the parent noticing the baby's waking?
Smaller studies sometimes can actually track sleep objectively, but you know, we You know, throughout the, the older baby period, like most babies are waking, you know, one to three times. And then we kind of move into the toddler period and that waking goes down a bit on a population level. But waking is still normal.
So there was this big study that came out in 2020. It was one of those really big population based studies out of some of the Scandinavian countries. And it looked at, like, average wakings and a bunch of other sleep info at different points throughout the first two years. And so, like, from that study, it said that, like, at six months, Average wakings is 2.
5, and then at a year, it's 1. 8, and then at 18 months, it's 1. 1, and then at 2, 24 months, it's 0. 9. So, that's the average, right? Some babies, more babies are clearly sleeping through as we go over time, but also, there are still babies that are waking several times a night. So, toddlers that are waking several times.
Yeah.
So I think that that's really helpful to know and helpful to see that, you know, there it's based on averages. So it's not any kind of say, like any kind of guarantee that, you know, your child will be waking only 0. 9 times a night by two years old. So I'm curious, is there a point where it's like something's wrong?
Like this is a lot of waking. Is there a point where we've, where there's that kind of consideration? And if so, when would, when would that be?
Yeah, that is a great question. So there is normal waking, right? And there is sort of laying over top of just like general normal waking is like, what kind of temperament is your kiddo?
Because if you have a highly sensitive child, they are probably going to wake more than. A less sensitive child because their nervous system is more sensitive. They're probably going to be more easily disrupted or dysregulated by their environment or by lack of connection or, you know, any number of things.
So that's gonna, you know, we see a big, a big connection between temperament and waking patterns and how much support they need. But then there's a layer that's like, what else is going on with them? That might be more health, kind of medical related. So, super frequent waking. Paired with like a baby obviously waking up in pain, or really, really restless or shows You know, red flags, you know, like mouth breathing and snoring regularly or a baby that we know has digestive issues, right?
These things are going to shape because a baby that has obstructed breathing or that is in pain or in discomfort from their, you know, from allergies or from, you know, reflux from tightness in the body, you know, different things like that. That's of course. Going to disrupt their sleep. It would disrupt an adult's sleep too.
It's just that we don't like to think of it. In that same way So there definitely is a point where it's like this is nothing to do with what you're doing and this is everything that we need to get to a deeper level of what's happening and what You know, looking with other professionals that like, hey, maybe we need to see a pediatric ENT.
Maybe we need to see an allergist. Maybe we need to look into these things
to see what Yeah, absolutely. I, and I said that to you sometimes or a parent comes to me with their, they want a night wean because they're, you know, two year old is waking every hour to breastfeed overnight. And typically my personal response is the breastfeeding is probably their best attempt at getting more sleep.
So taking away that breastfeeding isn't. going to get you necessarily any more sleep because that breastfeeding is going to be very soothing, very comforting, it's going to be regulating their nervous system, it's going to be doing all those things, and you know, even when you're talking like with obstructive airway issues breastfeeding is It's going to be helping their airways to form properly and it's going to be, you know, facilitating nasal breathing instead of mouth breathing.
So it's actually like really, really good for them and really important. So you know, eliminating the breastfeeding in those situations is not going to, you know, give you the results that you're really hoping for because yeah, there's often these other medical issues that can be there. So that makes so much sense.
And I think it's great that you're bringing in like temperament and all of these different layers that. Can speak to those variations in normal, right? Where it's like, well, temperamentally, your child might just be waking more because of how their body is wired and who they are, like and that's not really anything that we can change so, and that kind of falls within that realm of normal.
If a person's we've kind of like ruled out that medical that you'll need to bring in more support to look deeper if there's a lot of waking that's happening, because it might be outside of the range of normal and then the issue isn't necessarily like a behavior, but maybe something medical that's going on underneath.
So when we're looking at those variations in temperament, because there's Sometimes a parent might be like, well, I'm, I'm exhausted. You're telling me it might be normal for my, you know, 18 month old to wake four times overnight, but I'm tired and it's difficult. What are some things that parents can do in those positions where maybe it's not medical, maybe it's more temperamental.
How is there any hope?
Yeah. You know, I like to say a lot that we don't actually live in a very sleep friendly society for anybody. And so. The vast majority of families have lots of small things that they could adjust to better support everyone's sleep. And so I like to think of it as like, we want to optimize, you know, our, our sleep hygiene, our circadian rhythm support, our sleep timings, our routines, our rhythms, all that kind of jazz with our, our toddler.
But then we also can look at like, hey parents, what are you doing? That either helps the quality of your sleep between those wakes or maybe undermines the quality of the sleep between those wakes because that There's a relationship, right? Obviously if your baby or toddler is waking, you know, five times a night That's gonna disrupt your sleep But actually it's also about what's the quality of the sleep in between those weeks and how quickly are you able to get back to sleep?
and so They're related, but they're also separate things that you can focus on when you're thinking about how do we get more RAS? And then there's the whole team building, right? We have a two parent household, then how can we... Share. Load. So it's not all falling on one person.
Yeah, so I'm hearing that you can optimize the sleep environment and all of those pieces for the child, as well as for the parent.
I see anxiety is a big one with parents keeping them awake that and like state wanting to stay up late because that's what they've always done and wanting to be on their screen right before sleep like those are probably Three of the biggest things I see with
parents. I think medically comes up to me because I am personally going through, like I recently had a sleep study done.
I am doing oral facial myology to work on my own tongue posture and breathing and all of that kind of stuff. So it's like I know that It's easy to say if my child would sleep more, but then my child did start sleeping more, and then I'm still having these issues, so it's like, these are things that I need to get checked out myself, right?
So that's, that comes to mind for me too personally, but yeah, and I see that. To where parents want to stay up late at night, because that's what they've always done. And also, if you're home with a young toddler all day, it can feel like you're not getting that quote, like, me time, and like, self care quote.
Using quotes here. So we kind of like bunch it all in at the end of the day, and we're scrolling, doom scrolling TikTok, saying that we're getting some time to ourself, but it can be hurting us in the long run sometimes.
Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, let's reimagine what That you time looks like can be really helpful.
Because we know a that people think scrolling social media is actually relaxing, but I don't it's not generally like doesn't for a lot of people doesn't actually boost their mental wellness like it actually is just kind of mindless and sometimes even more anxiety producing. So, and then there with me no screen.
Disrupt sleep and they inhibit melatonin release and they're not putting your body in the right physiological state for a good quality sleep so it's like Sometimes it's about finding balance, like, okay, well, how can we both get you to bed earlier and minimize the effects of blue light and find some other ways for you to have me time?
It doesn't always have to be, like, all or nothing, right? It doesn't have to be that black and white.
So I know that you are an IBCLC as well as a holistic sleep coach for parents. So a conversation that I'm having all the time with my clients is around Night weaning and the way that breastfeeding is or isn't influencing sleep and the way that sleep is or isn't influencing breastfeeding. So, I know that something that you're passionate about is really creating sleep goals that are also supportive of breastfeeding goals.
And obviously in that first year, there's a certain level of real protection that we want to provide for breastfeeding in order to support breastfeeding for that first year because we know how important it is. And we also know that breastfeeding is important for the second year of life too, hence why we have current recommendations to breastfeed for at least two years.
So I was wondering if you could kind of, kind of speak to that relationship. In more generalities, because I know this is a really big topic that we could really deep dive but what are, what are some easy, like, areas that parents get tripped up in this, in this, and what, what should we really be considering when we're talking about sleep and breastfeeding together?
Yeah, oh my gosh, this is such a, a feisty passion topic. I know, right? Because it's so often that I am talking with moms, particularly with older babies, but toddlers as well, and the information they're getting around. Night feeds and lactation and feeding to sleep. It's just like, oh my god So I think the first thing is that night feeds are normal and most babies and young toddlers Especially if you're nursing and bed sharing Are going to need some night feeds And just because they won't starve to death if you don't feed them overnight doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from night feeds.
And night feeds are just as much about thirst and connection, co regulation, as they are about like specific calorie intake. I think we forget that. You know, so I don't know if you're familiar with the study, there's a study out of the UK by Brown and Harris Hmm, 2017? Something like that. And they were looking at like night feeds and in like the 6 to 12 month range.
So I think the range where you're most told, starting to be told that like you shouldn't be feeding anymore. And, you know, they found that like, regardless of nursing or bottle that, you know, the majority of babies were like. feeding one point something or another times a night. So like once or twice a night.
And, you know, we know that if you're a bachelor and you're little, it's probably nursing more. But like, you kind of should be expecting night feeds, like, into that second year. It's not like at one, suddenly night feeds aren't Important or aren't a thing or aren't normal and so I say I feel like after a year that's when I start to think of night feeds a little bit differently if we're nursing directly or for bottle feeding because they do start to get in some like dental health things with bottles but if we're nursing, then, you know, nursing toddlers, like they nurse at night, that's pretty normal.
And just like you were saying earlier, you know, night weaning doesn't necessarily. Change waking, particularly in younger toddlers. I find that as toddlers get older the, the likelihood of it being the thing that nudges over into a little bit better sleep, assuming that you kind of have really checked all the other boxes, there's nothing medically going on, like, that gets a little bit higher.
It's still not a guarantee, but like if we're talking about night weaning a 15 month old versus like a three year old with no other underlying medical conditions, I say the three year old has a better chance of night weaning changing. Thank you. their sleep pattern in a positive way than the 15 month old, if that makes sense.
But I never recommend that people night wean just to improve sleep. Like, we always want to dig into that emotional experience, much like I'm sure you do to make sure that it's really coming from the right motivations, so they don't end up on the other side and have lost their best tool and then resent, you know, all that effort they just
put in.
Yeah, I, I say that a ton and I love that you say they've lost their best tool because I think as we're having this conversation around what is normal, And we're talking about averages. I think that we can also say what's important, right? Like, there's a, there's a reason why it's normal too. There's. It's it's doing something that is is really important and if we don't have that thing, which there can be so many reasons why parents may not be breastfeeding at five months, let alone 24 months, and but I always see that like, biologically speaking, that developmental stage was meant to, from a biological standpoint, kind of unfold in the context of breastfeeding.
And I know with your anthropology and All of that kind of stuff that you're like, yeah, of course, right?
Of course, yes!
So, I found it in this context. So, there's... No shame. There's no, and there might, there might be some pain there emotionally for the parent, but there's no shame if it's not. But that means that we're looking to replace that tool that, that was serving a really important purpose with other things.
And so it kind of gets more complicated when we're doing it without breastfeeding. Whereas a lot of times parents feel the opposite, that it's harder with breastfeeding. That if you're still breastfeeding at those stages that you've somehow created some bad habit or pattern that's going to make it.
Harder in the future where in fact the opposite's kind of true.
Yeah. I always say it's easier to make changes if you want to make a change with a toddler than a baby and with an older toddler than a younger toddler because we have more tools that we can use as a kiddo gets older. Versus like a younger, younger toddler that isn't really fully verbal like that doesn't understand what's happening.
We have so many less tools. And you know, there's lots of reasons why parents might say, okay, I know it's normal, but I need to stop, you know, nursing at night. I need to stop feeding to sleep. It's not working for me, or I have really bad aversion or, you know, any number of reasons, including they just are ready to be done regardless of its effects on sleep.
But we need to think through all the different angles because there's so much misinformation out there on all the sides, right? Like from so many different directions that it, we, We want you to be able to make an informed decision. And like feeding to sleep is normal, right? Feeding to sleep is relaxing.
It's this rich sensory experience that's connection, it's co-regulation, it's releasing all these lovely hormones in both parent and child. And it is really normal and it can be your best superpower. And if it's not working, of course you want to find other alternatives and give you other ways to create that connection and warmth and co regulation.
It's not like the only thing, but it can for a lot of families be a really awesome tool. You know, if it feels low effort because you can just sideline nurse and just latch on kiddo then it can sometimes be way less effort than other, other tools that you could be swapping
for. Yeah, and I think that as we're talking about co regulation and nervous system regulation and all of that stuff, those things are so beautiful and important for in the moment, right?
It feels good. But it's also important long term for brain development. Like, you're, it's wiring the brain and I'm going to mess this up. I was saying before the interview that I mess up. Quotes and stats and all that stuff. And I remember Both of us do. Yeah,
I remember
reading Names. I remember reading Safe Sleep by Dr.
James McKenna, talking about, like, certain parts of the brain that literally don't develop if they're not sleeping in close sensory proximity to a parent. Like, there's literally parts that, like, don't fully develop. They just will not develop if that doesn't occur in that time frame. So, it's just, like, wild to say that It's so, so, it's not just like, oh, there's benefits, which I think we can, you know, use that language like, oh, it's really nice to have oxytocin flowing.
It's really nice to have these co regulation pieces, but it's really, really, really important to have them too, because the brain is doing so much development in that time. And we often think about, you know, independence and self, quote, self soothing All that stuff, but the brain is learning. Don't get me started on that.
the brain is learning how to regulate, period. During that time period. So, that means that the more you're co regulating, the more the brain is wiring to regulate. It's learning how to regulate in that time. And so you're laying this really strong foundation for your child. And just like you were saying too, if it's not working for you for whatever reason, that is okay.
And from my perspective, the way that I tend to work with my clients, I will dig into that. Why isn't it working? Because sometimes the parent needs that support and the parent can get the support where now it feels like it's working again. And that's beautiful. And sometimes that's not. Okay. And it's not a choice.
It's not an option that's available to them to continue to do that thing for so many valid reasons. And that's great too. That's when we're bringing in those other, those other tools and pieces. But I just think that, especially for those of us in the kind of quote attachment parenting space or the space that's looking more holistically at child development, you know, we throw them out around words like normal and it's true, but also like important.
You know, these things, they serve a real, real valid purpose in that time too. So that's my, that's my soapbox for the moment, but yeah,
it's because our cultural normal is a separate baby, a separate toddler who's independent, quote unquote, babies and toddlers aren't meant to be independent. That's another page.
We'll go down that route right now. But really the biological norm is a baby sleeping in close proximity and a toddler sleeping close proximity. That's. That's the historical norm, that's the cross cultural norm, that's the evolutionary biological norm. Like separate sleeping children were vulnerable children, right?
Vulnerable from a predator standpoint, like is a tiger going to get my baby? I need to keep them close. But also vulnerable from like a temperature regulation standpoint, you know, having well temperature controlled homes. Is still not true everywhere, but it's certainly only more of a modern, like, Western concept.
And so, humans have always slept together communally because that keeps us warm, and that keeps us safe. And so, you know, we can know that the baby's crib or the toddler in their crib, in their nursery, is objectively safe, warm, and cared for. But that is not what their nervous system, you know, is. Using for to send safety signals, because biology doesn't change in a couple hundred years, right?
And so they've had hundreds and thousands of years of evolution hardwiring them to seek that proximity. And that if they are set down and left alone and unattended, that... They are at risk, right? Children who sought proximity were more likely to survive, and that's part of why that's so hardwired. And then the flip side is, right, all the things that that proximity is doing from that oxytocin, you know, like nurturing, brain development, brain wiring, a stress response system, all that kind of stuff is happening when they are closer to us.
Yeah,
absolutely. So just because the crib is safe doesn't mean that it's facilitating, not that, not that cribs are inherently evil or bad or wrong.
We're not crib bashing here. No, not saying that
at all, but just because we know that the crib is safe doesn't mean that it's going to... Yeah, there's a reason why your child is seeking out that proximity.
Part of it has to do with safety, but in, within that proximity there's important development that's happening too. Yeah.
So. And so even if you have a kid that actually does quite well sleeping on their own, there's ways to incorporate that kind of proximity, like in your routines and things like that.
So I think it's just a matter of taking like, oh, proximity and connection and being near us is really helpful. So it's okay if we do one of our naps as a contact nap, even if they don't need it. And even if you don't do it all the time, or we can really snuggle them down to sleep and not. worry about it being like a bad habit.
It's actually the opposite. It's actually promoting really healthy developments and
physiology. I've heard that too. I forget, again, names, struggling with names, but I, I remember listening to someone who was sharing that, you know, temperamentally we see high needs kids as like more difficult. But we could also, there could be something said for the flip side, where they are actually more vocal about getting their needs met.
So they might actually be ahead of the curve in a lot of ways because they're getting more of that proximity, more of that touch for that development. And perhaps children who are a little quieter and are not as vocal about getting their needs met might be at a slightly disadvantaged. You know, from that brain development perspective, because they're not getting as much sensory input and connection from their caregiver, like physical touch and all the myriad of things that go along with that.
So I think that's like an interesting flip to offer to you for the mindset piece. Absolutely,
yeah, definitely. I think, I think the key with all this stuff is like, To take it, but not to use it to judge yourself, right? To take it and go, Ooh, how can I incorporate this into what's already working for us?
And Understand that no one's perfect. No one provides the perfect nurturing environment. That's no one's goal, right? That's not realistic But we can use knowledge like this to stop buying into all that bad habit sleep should It's kind of ridiculousness. But also to be like, Oh, well, maybe we can lean into this a bit more because it is actually doing really great stuff.
Yeah. And sometimes that's where the distress comes is for just simply from the shoulds. That's what's causing us the most pain is that we're laying awake at night worrying about what. What this means for our child and what this means for us and if we're being a good mom or not a good mom, and that is the thing that's actually driving our pain.
And if we can turn down that knob, we can sometimes, not all the times, but sometimes that's enough to release the pressure and we suddenly are feeling a lot better about sleep and sleep seems to be a lot better.
Yeah, and like I don't know about you, but when like the parents that I tend to work with I see both sides of it I see a lot of stress and pressure from mainstream like sleep training culture kind of beliefs on sleep But I also see some parents who feel like there's this pure version of like attachment responsive parenting that they aren't living up to And then they're feeling guilt from that perspective And I see that a little bit less, but I definitely see it.
And that's where I think it's always really important to be like, nah, no one's perfect. You're going to miss a tune. You're going to miss cues. You're going to mess up, you know, you're going to misread your kiddo. And it's just all in the art of reconnection and understanding that we all are just going to do the best that we can.
And we take these ideas and we're incorporating them, you know, into our lives in, in the ways that we can do it. Right. Not in this like perfect, pure. I know,
I know parents. Who? We're exclusively pumping and still pumping every two to three hours overnight, like well into the second, third year of life. And when I've talked with them, they're like, well, this is what I need to do to protect my supply.
And I was like, Oh, my love. At that point? No! No, you're okay. Like they, and like, I think that that happens too, right? Like they feel so, it's so. They're so passionate about providing the best for their child and, and somewhat misinformed too, and, and really working themselves up and having, I don't know, working themselves up is not the right word, but, you know, they're, they're really sacrificing a lot to continue something that I'm like, if you understand how milk supply works, then you'll know by this point, your, your milk supply is very well established. You do not need to pump overnight in order to maintain that. But I think that that leads into that idea that, you know, we might think that it's this pressure always culturally about sleep training and whatnot that we're feeling and that's causing us stress.
But there can be messages 100 percent coming from the other side as well. That can cause us a lot of pain too.
Yeah, and like, I think, you know, yeah, in the first year, you probably need to be removing milk at least once a night, right, just to protect that supply, especially if you are away from your baby and pumping and if you don't feel like maybe you respond best to the pump like, Milk removal is supposed to happen at night and so when we're thinking about human milk as the primary food source, then we definitely want to make sure that we're not going crazy long times in the first year.
But somewhere in that second year, like the vast majority of people can go much longer and still maintain a supply. And part of that is that your supply naturally down regulates as babies turn to toddlers and toddlers start eating more foods and so on and so forth. Yeah, you don't need a, you don't need a pumping schedule or a nursing schedule, like.
A newborn to maintain supply. Some toddlers will do that. If it works for you, cool. But,
you know. I have an episode where I talk about milk supply kind of in the extended breastfeeding experience. Because so often we think that, you know, that we're, if our child doesn't breastfeed for one or two days When they're two or three that we've just ruined our supply, or there can be this idea that you need to somehow get rid of your milk supply in order for your toddler to wean and You know or or this concern that I'm still producing milk two weeks after we've weaned and so some And you know all of these things and so much of it comes from the messaging that we hear When our when we're talking about newborn Breastfeeding and, and we kind of carry these ideas and then they're informing our choices in the second and third year of life.
And I can cause us a lot of stress and it's a lot of kind of misinformation coming at us. So I do have a podcast episode where I deep dive that because it's just, it's true. We, we end up carrying all these things with us a lot of worries and concerns. And I think that that comes back to our bodies are wise and they kind of know what they're doing in that time.
And by the time we've hit those stages, things look a lot different. And so. Yeah, it doesn't require as much, as much control, intentional control on our part for sure.
And I feel like there's not enough of that, right? Like walking you through the journey over the first few years, both with nursing and with sleep.
But like, isn't a window of opportunity that you're going to lose? Things are going to change and they're going to move in and out of phases. And that that's okay, like that there's a process that's going to unfold and we don't always need to be meddling with it if everything is going well and that if it's not going well, if something isn't working, then that's a time to kind of assess where we're at, what we're doing and what we could be doing differently.
Well, that is just like a beautiful summary of the whole episode. I love it. We just came right back to that. So beautiful, Kim. So as we're kind of wrapping up here, I'd love for you to share with my audience on my podcast where they can connect with you, where they can find your stuff and how they can work with you.
Yeah. Awesome. So I have my own still pretty new podcast called the Responsive Family Sleep Podcast. That's primarily baby and toddler sleep related with a little sprinkle of everything else thrown in because sleep is holistic and it's never just about sleep. And then you can find me on Instagram at intuitive underscore parenting underscore dc and on my website intuitive parenting dc.
com and I work with families virtually. I work with them all over the place, both one to one and I have a group coaching program for older babies and younger toddlers. That has a lot of nursing and bed sharing families in it. It's a big, a big portion, I'd say, of the families that I work with, though certainly not the only families that I work with.
Wonderful. It was such a pleasure to have you on, Kim, and I look forward to you more in the
future. Awesome. Thank you.