Spicy Midlife Women: Real Talk, Raw Truth, and Bold Moves for Women Over 40
Spicy Midlife Women is the ultimate podcast for women over 40 who are rewriting the rules of midlife, breaking free from relationship drama, and leaving toxic patterns behind.
It’s all about embracing authenticity, building meaningful connections, and living unapologetically through candid conversations, hard-earned wisdom, and raw truth.
Hosted by Jules and Michele, two midlife women with real stories and no-BS advice, the Spicy MidLife Women Podcast will guide you in redefining relationships, breaking free from what's holding you back, and reclaiming your power—one episode at a time!
Prepare to get clear on what you really want in your relationships—whether it’s romance, family, or friendships, let go of past baggage and open yourself up to the possibility of fresh, exciting connections.
You’ll also gain the wisdom and confidence to approach dating and relationships with confidence and zero judgment, and feel empowered to ditch outdated expectations, creating a life that truly feels good on your own terms.
Plus, find a supportive sisterhood along the way—because you don’t have to do this alone!
Spicy Midlife Women: Real Talk, Raw Truth, and Bold Moves for Women Over 40
Episode 51: The Sexual Revolution: Empowerment, Family Dynamics, and the Quest for Fulfillment
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Can you imagine a time when the phrase "That's just how things are" dictated every aspect of personal and social life? That's what we are here to unravel as we chart the seismic shifts brought on by the sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's. This episode promises a journey through the transformative period that redefined not just bedrooms but the very essence of family, gender roles, and happiness.
Join us as we dissect the contradictions of women's liberation in a society that still grapples with double standards and the objectification of women. We share intimate reflections on the evolving moral compass, the challenges of equality, and the complex tapestry of individual and cultural battles that women face even today. Our candid conversation peels back the layers of empowerment, consent, and the acceptance of diverse lifestyles, offering insights into the hard-won freedoms and the resistance that persists.
As we wrap up, we don't shy away from asking the tough questions: Have the freedoms fought for led to greater fulfillment? How has the definition of a successful family structure evolved with both parents working, and what does this mean for the future of relationships and happiness? We confront the uncomfortable yet crucial realities of the ongoing journey towards personal identity and satisfaction in an ever-changing world. So tune in, as we present an episode that's as much about understanding where we've come from as it is about navigating where we're headed.
Are you ready to take your "spiciness" to the next level?!
Connect with Julee & Michele on Instagram @spicy_midlife_women and send a DM about what resonated most during this episode so they can encourage you with steps forward in your own life.
One, two, three, four. Hey, y'all use sexy people out there. This is Michelle.
Speaker 2She's the sexiest of them all. She's the smexiest.
Speaker 1Hi Michelle, Too sexy for you.
Speaker 2This is Julie.
Speaker 1Yep, here we are.
Speaker 2Her sidekick. Yeah, and it's funny how she started out with that particular opening line, because what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1Michelle, we're going to be talking about the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Whatever that means.
Speaker 2We've been having some conversations off-mic about this and we have such interesting perspectives on things. But anyway, before we get into that, how the hell was your day?
Speaker 1It was good.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1It was good, I feel like now that your birthday is over with oh my gosh, that was the celebration. It was like an extended holiday. I know it made the holiday seem longer, not in a bad way. It's just that I was still drinking and eating cake for an additional week.
Speaker 2Oh my God, I ate so much German chocolate cake. And then I go to the gym and I'm like, oh shit, I need to regroup.
Speaker 1Yeah, me too. I was going to take a sip of my vodka tonic here, but it is sugar-free.
Speaker 2It is sugar-free. Yeah, I was saying to Michelle, it's like I had my birthday and I have never felt the love that much. It was so amazing. Just all the energy and the details. That was a good time. Oh my gosh. We had so much fun but I was like can we just do that again next week?
Speaker 1Can we just?
Speaker 2keep it going. I kind of like this Celebrate all year. Yeah Well, we've got other birthdays coming up in the future. So in the meantime, getting started on our new year and we've talked about that a little bit in some of the shows that we've had so far this year but we really thought it would be kind of interesting to chat a little bit on the sexual revolution, just because there are so many components to what's happened in the past that directly impact us today women, men, and obviously women and men. We were born in the 60s and so that's when the sexual revolution really was a lot of it's taking place.
Speaker 2So we didn't really get to experience it per se, but I have a lot of. I have a lot of I'm going to say memories but things we've read over the years, or books we've read or whatever that have come up with that timeframe, even movies and things that have been in that timeframe.
Speaker 1And then thinking about that timeframe we're talking 60s 70s. And then it just goes from there.
Speaker 2And then the things that were in the 60s and 70s start to become more normalized with the next generation where, just like anything else, people might not know how something specific originated. So anyway, with that in mind, the sexual revolution.
Speaker 1Just to be more specific, if you're not familiar with that term, I don't know who wouldn't be. But if you're not familiar with that term, it was a social movement that really challenged traditional codes, if you will, of behavior related to sexuality and interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 2And so the traditional stuff that was going on. You know Michelle with her pearls and her dress waiting for the slippers and the newspaper.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, all that. I got your newspaper, I got your pipe. I have no problem being submissive. Let me draw your bath.
Speaker 2You're joking, right.
Speaker 1A little bit, okay, maybe just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit, I like to take care of it.
Speaker 2I know I do too, don't get me wrong. I'm not sitting here saying, oh, you can be submissive if you want, michelle, I don't care. But there's, we have very varying views on submissive behavior. That's a whole nother discussion, probably.
Speaker 1Yeah, probably.
Speaker 2But she has a different view maybe than I do. I'm just thinking of, okay, so there's that TV show that was from the 1950s, that Leave it to Beaver, yeah. And then the kid, it was all reruns. You know that were happening and we would maybe get to watch a little bit of after school or something. And that's where I'm making the joke about the woman in her perfectly coiffed hair and her pearl necklace.
Speaker 1We all know that shit's not true. No, it's not, I mean yeah, there was also my three sons, though Do you remember that it was a single father who had three sons and he was raising him on his own?
Speaker 2So it wasn't all. Did he have a housekeeper?
Speaker 1I don't remember. Oh, probably, probably, now that we're talking about, it.
Speaker 2I don't really remember that show per se but. I do remember the other one, and only because at the time it didn't really seem like it was any big deal, because it was very I should say very, but somewhat similar to the way we grew up you know, with very traditional households having the dinner on the table, it had to be damn hot or it got sent back, you know that happened in my house.
Speaker 2Oh, that didn't happen at my house, yeah, it had to be super hot and like right out, and of course there were no microwaves back then, so things have to be re warmed up or whatever, but anyway it had to be on the table at a certain time and the house is clean and the dishes are done and the kids are quiet and doing everything they're supposed to. That's what I, that's what I think of when I think of the fifties.
Speaker 1I don't think having dinner together, though is, is a bad thing.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh, I don't either.
Speaker 1I think it's definitely a major bonus aside from you know people, so there's a lot of components of this that have to do with people and idiosyncrasies and what they demand. So there's, there's that, but in general, if we're, if we're speaking in generalities, you know having we were the same way Dinner. It wasn't at a specific time that I remember, I just remember we always had dinner, it seems like when dad got home from work, so around five, five o'clock, something like that five, six o'clock.
Speaker 2But everybody was together.
Speaker 1But we yeah.
Speaker 2I 100% agree with you that that is probably one of the breakdowns that has taken place over the last several decades and, in particular, had experienced it kind of myself, really when your, your families, are going, going, going in all these different directions and you're having Cheerios for dinner at nine o'clock at night because they've been at baseball practice or whatever.
Speaker 1What does this have to do with the sexual revolution? You might be asking yourself. Well, it kind of does, but we'll get into that, yeah, We'll get into that too.
Speaker 2So I think, when one thing about the sexual revolution that I think of is, if you're looking at the sixties and sixties to seventies, think about how many things were taking place in our world and not only just our country but in our world.
Women's Liberation and Moral Values
Speaker 2During that timeframe there was so much that happened and the music and everything that was from that timeframe when I, when I hear some of it, all I think about is the Vietnam War, which was started in the sixties, late sixties. We had um, kennedy was killed, you know, the the civil rights movement happened. We had a lot of laws and things that were passed, uh, federally, you know, which were nice Like up until 1964, there was no, no such thing allowed as interracial marriages, an example just things that you don't even think about today and you know families that were husband and a wife and their kids, and everything was the norm, and so if you were, say, a divorced woman, you were kind of a pariah in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1So what is? I don't, I don't know the meaning of that word.
Speaker 2So basically, you were like a, you're like a well, this is my word, but you're kind of like a leper.
Speaker 1Like you're, just like you know, ostracized and kind of an outcast of society.
Speaker 2You might be involved in different things, but you're not in the social circles, You're not in that kind of thing because you're a divorced woman and it's funny because I even felt that way when I first got divorced. You know, it's just like, oh my gosh, you're getting judged or my kids are getting judged or whatever.
Speaker 2So back then it was a big deal when people were divorced, and more of a big deal, I think, for women than that was for men. But just because you know, women were home and taking care of the home and a lot of times didn't have the education or whatever.
Speaker 2So, anyway, the Woodstock, all of those things, when you started thinking about people having a voice. This is the timeframe when people had more of a voice and it was related more to sex. Honestly with you, know, or like do you ever hear about? Like women burning their bra?
Speaker 1Oh yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, so that was during this timeframe too, or Gloria Stein.
Speaker 1I'm kind of a feminist. I mean peace, love sex, all that kind of stuff, well, and actually even the acceptance.
Speaker 2Yeah, Contraception was kind of coming up during that time as well, and Roe v Wade, all the abortion stuff was coming up. So these topics that were impacting this society as a whole, but really kind of impacting women, because some of these things were directly related to women birth control that sort of thing were on the forefront.
Speaker 1Then also there were, there were all of those things, but then through this transitional time, the public nudity, pornography, premarital sex, all of those kinds of things, alternative forms of sexuality, that were coming to the forefront. Playboy magazine, all of these things, and it kind of, in so many ways though we're trying to be free, love and and get our, get a voice I'm speaking to women then, through so many of those things then we became, you know, we had the stigma of being an object Correct, and you know so.
Speaker 1A lot of those things weren't necessarily as they were happening. You know, of course we went through that transition as well as women Right Before we even got to. It was really once we moved through all of that, through the 60s and the 70s, that we kind of like peaked and you know, we're finally on the other side of that stuff.
Speaker 2You have to kind of wonder if, during that time frame, when you had women saying we want more rights, we want to have more freedom, all those things, whether they really understood and realized that their sexuality would be used that way.
Speaker 1And some of the some of the more controversial aspects I guess you could say is that so many of these things contributed to the decline in moral values Perceived. When it comes to, you know, fidelity, marital commitment those kinds of things because of the emphasis on sexual liberation in so many forms and undermining the importance in maintaining strong family units and stable relationships. I mean really Okay.
Speaker 2But let's, let's talk about that for a second then because, why? Why, by women coming into their own, was all of that degraded? Why was the moral compass.
Speaker 1Why was it compromised?
Speaker 2But the moral compass. So the version of moral compass is different from one person to the other. But why was that? Because women were coming into their own. Why was it compromised?
Speaker 1I don't think it's necessarily women coming into their own. That's, this is what I'm saying. It's like that with the sexual revolution, all of those things that I was just talking about the decline of moral values, fidelity, marital commitment, those kinds of things. Because of the free love, people are smoking weed, which was something not new, but to do it so freely.
Speaker 2Right, it was.
Speaker 1it was illegal still make you feel like you know you're able to do so many things outside of what those commitments might be. So that's, that's what I'm. I'm not talking about women and getting a voice is just, in general, those really their moral commitments in marriage, those kinds of things that I'm talking about. So when you have all this going on around you, it's it's temptation that comes in then to kind of rock that world of for women or for everybody.
Speaker 2I'm just talking about everybody, well, because I think a lot of these things were a lot of these things were already happening. They're just happening behind the scenes.
Speaker 1Not like they were in the 60s and 70s.
Speaker 2No, but I'm saying prior to that, we're you know we're talking fidelity and yeah but it was all on the DL. I mean, a lot of this stuff was on the DL. Men were having married and having relationships and I'm sure women were to think women were to yeah, probably, but if? But they were literally pariahs that they got caught. They were called whores. They were called you know, we still are, we're not a whore.
Speaker 1We still are. I'm not a hoe, I'm just. You know what I'm saying. You're a hoe. Women.
Speaker 2I know, but see that that's what I wanted here we are in 2024 and that stigma is still there.
Speaker 1Why is that?
Speaker 2Why is it that we need to get a man?
Speaker 1on here to explain that to whores. I know when are you guys.
Speaker 2It's like why are you not a hoe? You guys are called players. You know, we're just called hoes and bitches, hoes and bitches or you know like loose or lack of whatever, I don't know. It's all. It's all coined differently, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it's still is.
Speaker 1So really, how much progress have we made?
Speaker 2I mean really, I think we're at the point where I shouldn't say everybody obviously I'm speaking in generalities but we're at the point where we just don't give a shit. I mean, I don't give a shit if that man over there thinks I'm a hoe.
The Impact and Liberation of Women
Speaker 1I think the main thing and one of the main things is through. You know so so much of this and with with the openness and the education and all of those things that come along with this. Uh, women have definitely, I would say, in the last 20 years so since you know the nineties ish. To be able to come to know your worth as a woman?
Speaker 2Yes, and what all entails with that, so they're worth not being just.
Speaker 1When I say this, I don't say it lightly, but it's like you know, raising children and keeping your house and I just mean your worth as a woman, so that, as you know, like what we were talking about, when, when there is a stigma put on us, whatever the circumstances might be, whether it's sexual, you know promiscuity, or or you know whatever. Uh, women, I think now are much more. They have a strength that they didn't have before because of the education as a woman and knowing that we do some of the hardest things that there are to do, you know, as single, single women raising children men do it too. We carry them for nine months and we birth them.
Speaker 1That is something that men some might take this wrong. It doesn't really matter, but that is something that men will never be able to do.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, that's just a straight up fact it has nothing to do with whether I mean I don't know that people could take that wrong. They can't give it, I can't give birth. Well, they can. They can impregnate people.
Speaker 1They can impregnate, but I'm just. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, but but yes, as women, being able to, to know our worth so that, when living our lives in such a way, we know differently.
Speaker 1So, if we're looking at this timeframe as one, you know where there was a lasting impact on society when it came to women, for and we're speaking about women right now because this is really, I think a lot of the sexual revolution was kind of geared toward or surrounding there's things that women I don't think it surrounded women, but I think there were there was definitely a lot that women gained through that, right yeah.
Speaker 2So that was when you heard more about women having sex before marriage, for example, and you know the single culture, you know being out there and being like wow it's. You don't have to be married to be a person. You don't have to be married to have an identity. You know being single is not a bad thing. But I go back to this is all we're talking about. Women can have sex before marriage and it's the stigma, maybe, but there were women having sex before marriage, but they were having sex with men who were, who were married or not married you know so it's like, but the stigma is different.
Speaker 1I mean nobody cared.
Speaker 2They think it's weird if the guy didn't do that Right. That's expected.
Speaker 1But see, is it.
Speaker 2I mean, do they not have self-control? I'm just saying, guys are not animals.
Speaker 1but you know, that's just what came to my mind in that moment, like, well, I mean, like people say that still, like you know, guys are different when it comes to those needs. Don't you ever hear that? I've heard that.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1But I think women are too.
Speaker 2Well, I think women just haven't had as much discussion about it like outwardly or it's not a. It's not a commonly discussed thing or common knowledge.
Speaker 1I think it's all part of two. Like where women, you know they, they became this, what is the word you know? Like with Playboy and objects, objects, you know, sexual objects trophy wives, you know you just there's all of those things.
Speaker 2And maybe they're okay with that. I mean, maybe it's like you mean it's if women were put in those positions you know they're pinups or they're a Playboy model or whatever. It's like they're in a position to be sexualized. They know they're going to be, if they're in a magazine or you know they're working at a gentleman's club or something like that right, they're going to be more sexualized.
Speaker 1It just comes with the territory Stripping.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1But I mean definitely the, the increased awareness for free you know that was around free sex, of course can contributed to the women's rights movements. To your point, julie I know that's what you were saying before and with society as a whole, you know, but an open world for women to live and work in. Well, I think the.
Speaker 2I think, with the time frame we're talking about, there was. It was a time frame really, where it was increasingly liberal and open to women to live and to work and to not really apologize for it. And I'm sure there was a ton of pushback, tons of pushback on all of that, right. But there was so much change happening in our country as a general rule it was kind of and not not related to the sexual revolution, but even like the pill becoming available during that time frame. But they almost had to be extreme with their views, the people, because they had to overshadow all this other stuff. You couldn't just have a soft voice about it, right?
Speaker 1It's just like anything else that needed to be that needed change.
Speaker 2I mean, when you're talking about civil rights as an example, you know it's like you couldn't have a soft voice about that. There had to be things taking place that brought attention to it. So, with these kinds of things, women were standing up saying men too, because men probably liked the fact that that it was. The roles were not necessarily going to be so black and white.
Speaker 1I'm sure men liked the fact that women were being more free with sex.
Speaker 2Come on now, I know Come on now, but they were waiting till they were married too, right? Men, yeah, no, they weren't. How come? I don't know.
Speaker 1Oh, I don't think women were either, I just don't think anybody I mean. Think about how we were raised. Yeah, I know, I mean, did we follow that? No?
Speaker 2But I mean close, followed it kind of close. But I mean I don't really know a lot of people that have followed that.
Speaker 1I mean, that's a whole other topic, Jules.
Speaker 2Fine. So what are some of the things that came about during the sexual revolution?
Speaker 1So some of the things as it was brought to the forefront and involved were things like books, novels. That's kind of when erotic, especially novels were then, because it used to be that it was governed on what could be printed and what couldn't. So that was somewhat lifted and that became more free and available.
Speaker 2Some more erotic, more erotic reading materials? Yes, probably not, with pictures and on stage and screen.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, Like movies deep throat.
Speaker 2That was a pornography, that's that.
Speaker 1I mean, that's part of this too, but it was actually yes, I have, you have, I haven't Years ago, but yeah, but as far as stage and screen goes, I was looking at this and it was more Swedish. There was a European.
Speaker 2I think that when you're looking at that, like Sweden and so they're a little bit more progressive in their process, definitely, definitely. So women were looked at differently.
Speaker 1They contributed to sexual liberation with those types of sexually themed films that challenged the conservative international standards that there were at that time.
Speaker 2Probably created a ruckus too.
Speaker 1Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, I wonder if they had boycotts or if they had like, if they had like protests out in front of movie theaters or anything that had some of these.
Speaker 1All the protests at that time. I think was about the Vietnam War, who knows? Yeah, just roll it all in.
Speaker 2Yeah, that is actually true.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I know whenever I hear like the doors or rolling stones or any that's all I think about. Or you think about forced gump.
Speaker 1Yeah, totally, that movie forced gump, that's what I think about then too.
Speaker 2Fashion also was one of the things that was affected. Yeah, because some of the dress was considered super modest, you know, like the hemlines and the necklines.
Speaker 1And that's when the 60s, when the miniskirts that came out and topless. Well, they called it a monokini because it was a topless bikini. Essentially, we're just wearing the bottoms.
Speaker 2But where were those worn? I mean? I mean I did. They don't have any like topless places around here.
Speaker 1I mean, I'm sure people found their nudist beach wherever you want to go. Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2Yeah, or maybe they went to Europe. That could be true. The one thing that I and this is, I think, a topic that we'll have to come up with or discuss at another time but there was a tremendous amount of normalization around pornography and that pornography was very much of an underground world. And to this day and now, with the internet, it's a totally different ball and I almost feel like it's kind of so out there, and I don't even want to know how many people watch it. But I know there's a lot, and mostly men, I'm sure, that do. I just don't get it.
Speaker 2Women do too.
Speaker 1They do probably too but I just, I don't, I know people that Michelle. No, but like I know, I know people, couples, couples, and a friend in particular, like she, you know she's single, she doesn't always have a man, and so I just watch a little porn. You know, had a little good time with myself, yeah, I mean. So I think it's probably more would be very eye-opening, truly, if it was all opened up and put on the table. You might be surprised.
Speaker 2If what was all opened up.
Speaker 1People and their habits with pornography. Oh yeah, I think it's. I mean there's relationships.
Speaker 2I know that are have been ruined because of it because they can't get enough of it. But you got it on your phone, you've got it on your computer, you've got, I mean, it's everywhere and it to me it's I don't want to say sad. I think people need whatever they need and I'm not going to necessarily judge, but it kind of makes me feel like it. It, I want to say, normalizes.
Speaker 1It was all part of the sexual revolution, though the normalization of that activity with, like I brought up, playboy it was in 1971, I think that Playboy stopped airbrushing pubic hair out of the center. Full pictures.
Speaker 2Really Uh-huh. That's the magazine that all the guys all the kids would hide in there.
Speaker 1That alone caused that magazine to hit its all time peak circulation of more than 7 million copies in 1972.
Speaker 2Wow, 7 million let's see the pubes ladies, they people wanted to see the pubes Well that's when they stopped airbrushing them out.
Speaker 1Could they even?
Speaker 2airbrush back then.
Speaker 1Of course they could.
Speaker 2Oh.
Speaker 1Yeah, so that was in 1972. Guys like the Big Old Bush. I guess, and 72 was also back to deep throat. That's when it became a popular movie for couples. Really yeah, I think that was kind of a. Thing.
Speaker 2Well, probably all kinds of different. When we talk about sexual revolution, it's not just monogamous sex, it's probably a lot of different things, a lot of people experimenting with things and swingers and you know orgies, who knows? I mean, I think that probably was the time when just about anything would go that was the first porn movie to earn a gross of a million dollars.
Speaker 1Was it really? That's the deep throat one that was in?
Speaker 272 also. Yep, didn't they make a remake? Isn't that the song bong bong, bong bong? And where it came from, I have no idea. Here's your innocent little Catholic girl and your little.
Speaker 1Mormon girl who are talking about deep throat?
Speaker 2Good job, Michelle.
Speaker 1But yeah, normalization of that pornography has definitely come about and I think there's less stigma attached to people watching it and it was more in the 80s or like the end of the 80s where mainstream movies not pornography here, but just mainstream movies depicted sexual intercourse as entertainment. I remember seeing an officer and a gentleman, probably in the 80s, and Deborah Winger and Richard Geer like that one scene you don't really see that they're having. I mean it was a hot, steamy sex. I was just like wow.
Speaker 2Well, now it's just like and that was just like.
Speaker 1Which is? I mean, it's kind of like.
Speaker 2I don't need to watch that.
Speaker 1Yeah, so the normalization of pornography.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1Feminism and sexual liberation. So alternative lifestyles, unconventional dress things, religions and their conservative social morals. Use of cannabis, so marijuana weed. That became popular. Other recreational drugs also.
Speaker 2Yeah, acid and yeah, there's a lot of that, a lot of drugs.
Exploring Social Changes and Family Structure
Speaker 1It's just a relaxed attitude in general, being sarcastic, humble, self-imposed. I think that kind of as a result of all of that, all of those other habitual things came along with that. So do you think?
Speaker 2that because of this timeframe, people just became more comfortable being who they truly were, Just generally speaking if you're talking about more casualness, well, I just don't know if it's who they truly were.
Speaker 1I think it was just the exploration of the possibilities of who they were.
Speaker 2But even like you're talking, about, like respectful and church stuff, you know, or people having a moral compass, and people. When I say the kids, I'm thinking people in that timeframe were probably like 20s and 30s, even maybe in the late teens, 20s and 30s. That's who a lot of these people are that we're talking about, because they were in the process of exploration anyway.
Speaker 2And so their generation was doing it differently than the generation before who had so many boundaries and rules around them, and these guys, just like, were breaking them and saying, screw you, I'm just I'm checking it out.
Speaker 1I think we're still doing that though. Well, I think it depends on what?
Speaker 2where's the pushback coming from, though?
Speaker 1What do you mean?
Speaker 2Well, I mean, it's like when you think about your kids, example, or I think about my kids. It's like we don't have the same thought processes in a lot of cases about some of these things that we're mentioning, like, for example, premarital sex.
Speaker 2It's like, do I tell my kids? It's like you're gonna go to hell if you're caught masturbating. No, but that's what they told them back in the 60s. I mean, or, oh my God, they're living together. It's like you're living in sin. I don't care. I mean that stuff I don't care about. I think all of those things are. I don't look at them the same way that people did from the generations prior to that.
Speaker 2but there's still people that are our age or even younger that do believe all those things, which is totally fine. But it does come from the dynamics around how not they were raised necessarily, but what they've kind of grown into, because I was raised with all of those parameters in place, as were you right.
Speaker 1But we didn't end up growing up to portray all of the things that we're talking about that's what I'm saying is, I think it continues this exploration, because really you can talk, we can talk about the sexual revolution and all the things that came through it and all of this stuff which are facts and it happened and it is what it is. But I think to a certain degree it continues through the generations, just to your point, like you were saying, and people are gonna continue to explore who they are by doing different things outside of how they were raised. So that's what I meant when I said that. I just think it will continue. Of course, not to the degree this was a pivotal time in history, but I mean.
Speaker 2I'm thinking about it from the perspective that I grew up in a very conservative household, right, and I mean my kids grew up with parents who had come from conservative households. But, to your point, we were another generation or two removed from what was happening there.
Speaker 2But I think that some of the things that came up during that timeframe naturally just kind of were absorbed through us through osmosis. We just kind of took them in. Our environment was different because of what was happening, and if we were conforming to every single thing that was going on around us or what we were told to do, we would have continued on down that path.
Speaker 1I think that there's a lot of things, though, through that that aren't horrible, Correct, and I think that in certain ways I'm sure you would agree with this I tend to be a bit more conservative when it comes to some of this stuff. If you wanna use that word conservative, I don't mean in a political way. I did stay home with my kids a lot of years. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2No, I don't either, but I think now it's more of a choice. It's a discussion Like we were talking about before. It might be the male in the relationship that is staying home and instead of the well, you never in a million years would have seen that before, because there's no way in hell a guy was gonna stay home and take care of his kids, that was, or even I mean.
Speaker 2now we've got family leave for men and it's like they'll come home for six, eight weeks or whatever and hang out with the baby and the mom and then he goes back to the other work and the mom's taste.
Speaker 2But I mean, I don't have a problem with that either. I think I've said this a few times. It's like we talked earlier about like having dinner around the table. I believe that my family structure was directly impacted by the fact that our schedules were such to where we didn't make that family time the priority. You don't even look at it that way at the time. You're just like trying to fit all the things in. But if we had more time together, if they were more connected, would it have been different? A?
Speaker 2lot of that is because of where we're at in this world and both parents have to be outside of the home really to make it, which means that it does the responsibility for failure fall on the person whose traditional role has been in the past to be home, be that glue, be the one that puts this stuff on the table. Is it our responsibility to say that the failure of the family unit in regard to this is because women have become more aware?
Speaker 1I think, whether it's a man or a woman, no other success can compensate for failure in the home. I really believe that. Say that again, whether it's a man or a woman there's no other success outside the home that can compensate for failure in the home.
Speaker 2Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, okay, I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's not a man or a woman?
Speaker 2Well, but where does the responsibility lie?
Speaker 1traditionally, Traditionally, I think that it lies. I don't know that. Traditionally lie, it's both, it's both.
Speaker 2Well, everybody has their role. Yeah, but when we're talking about things such as family structure, do you feel like the family structure has been directly impacted overall on a negative level? I'm just gonna say, overall because of Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1So why Because of the things we're talking about, right, yeah.
Speaker 2But why? That's the question. Because it's like because women can't have cut and I know we we're going back and forth and we're saying well, it's not.
Speaker 1it's not just about women, it is in a lot because when the sexual revolution is talking about the things that came through it. Yes, the women and all of a sudden the women have more.
The Impact of Social Changes
Speaker 2Yes, it's just like in conversation with elderly people who shall remain nameless who put all of their energy, all of their time, all of their commitment into these little humans right, and then the other person in the relationship didn't do the same thing, and then that person doesn't have the education, doesn't have the friend-based, doesn't have all of the things that they would have had had they expanded their horizons. And perhaps the child has had helicopter parents this whole time because those parents didn't let go. I don't know, that's maybe a more specific example, but I do believe that there is a change to the way our society looks at women and men, but I don't know. That it's all. I think we have to look at the whole big picture to say if there's a failure in the family unit, where does the failure come from? I'm not trying to point fingers at one person or another, I'm just saying, over the course of time I know.
Speaker 1I'm just talking about all of these things that came to the forefront, that brought about so much. That is going to draw attention away from what you got going on in your home. So that's where some of that breakdown is going to start happening. When you've got Playboy Magazine and you've got women running around topless and just all of these things contraception I can have sex without worrying that I'm going to get caught or I can be safe, All of those things that we didn't have before.
Speaker 1I'm not saying they're bad things. We're just talking about where the breakdown can come from.
Speaker 1And when you have access to and all of these things are more in your face and available, those breakdowns or it's temptation, those things are going to happen. I'm not saying right or wrong, good or bad, whatever it is, it just is what it is, and so much of it has to do with how the people are, how you are as a person Because I was just listening to you. My mom. She had eight children. She stayed home with all her children. She's completely engaged in doing things on her own.
Speaker 2She's unique for her time, for her era.
Speaker 1She's 96 years old, she has interest, she has a cell phone, she's on the computer, she does genealogy. She still lives alone. There's just like all those things. So much of it has to do with people and within themselves and what they choose to do in life. The breakdown is going to kind of everybody's responsible for that. I don't pin it on a man or a woman. Everybody's responsible for whatever. The breakdown is my divorce, not just my fault or my husband's fault at the time. It's a combination of many things. When we're talking about breakdown, Back to some of these things in the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, it's just so interesting because there's so many things that parlay into several decades later.
Speaker 1You just leave these fancy words parlay, whatever the other word was.
Speaker 2I'm trying not to say let's dial back. She says I say that I like it, I like it, but the contraception.
Speaker 1So, anyways, back to some of these things that came through the sexual revolution, contraception, which I just mentioned, being more readily available and, of course yes, I completely agree for women and being able to have access to that. Yes, it was definitely progress and it was a good thing.
Speaker 2Do you know if there's contraception beyond? And this is a legit question do they have? It for men, do you know?
Speaker 1Oh, because that condoms. No, I meant, you know, like trick question.
Speaker 2I meant like we were talking about the 60s, that's when the pill came out. Is there anything like that for guys? I don't know, I don't either, just curious. I've never really heard of anything.
Speaker 1I don't think so, not that I know of. I mean, we have. Yeah, there's so much more that's involved with the woman's body, I know, with the menstrual cycle and all of that stuff. And, like I said, I mean we're the ones that go through all that. We are the only ones that'll ever birth a baby.
Speaker 2And it hurts.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Hurts so good.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Anyway, yeah, so and the premarital sex thing heavily, heavily stigmatized. When we were younger or during that time frame or even before that, I mean, having sex before being married was just like you were dirty. Then the funny thing is a guy's having sex before marriage and he's not dirty, so I just, it's these little double standards that I'm just.
Speaker 2I know that. That's just the way it is. Michelle's giving me this look like Julie, you need to let it go. I just want her to acknowledge the fact that there's a double standard. There has been. Absolutely Okay, then I can let it go now. Yeah, I can let it go. Of course there's a double standard I know, I just thought about that before. I just don't understand why.
Speaker 1I said we're considered hosabitches.
Speaker 2Do you, do you still think, then, that there's a double standard? Yes, really, to the same not to the same degree, though.
Speaker 1I mean not to the same degree, no, I mean men have become much more aware of so many things when it comes to women, much more educated.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah and in tune frankly, more in tune as well, you know. So I think you're probably right there is still stigma, but at the same time I would have to say that I don't think it's as big of a deal, because we meaning women in general don't really give a shit. It's like I don't really care if someone's going to call me a hoe because they think that I'm sleeping with someone before I get married. I'm going to look at them like what? Decade did you pop out of.
Speaker 1You might not care, but there are plenty of women that still do.
Speaker 2Sure, I'm just saying myself yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1So free love, which is another big topic, through the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2That just means like all forms of love, not just like monogamous love, correct?
Speaker 1Okay, I think initially it was to start the awareness for the separation that whole between church and state things that had to do with sexual stuff.
Speaker 2So Because there were a lot of parameters and rules and things, yeah, so that hence was the yeah.
Speaker 1And because birth control and adultery, you know, extramarital affairs, sex outside of marriage, sex before marriage, all of those things really started to become a thing.
Speaker 2So or actually even sex for pleasure, because sex for pleasure really was not what it was designed. I mean, I just know from design it wasn't. I don't know, then why do we have a G spot and have, or I mean, I don't know, that's just a whole another thing. But yeah, but it really was not intent. Nobody really paid attention to that kind of stuff. It was more for, you know, making babies and carrying on the population.
Speaker 1Well, that's why premarital sex was. That was a big thing. Well, because it's supposed to be for pleasure, it was very stigmatized at that time, but during 60s and 70s became much more widely accepted.
Speaker 2That's also when women actually did start talking about orgasm.
Speaker 1Orgasm. That's when birth control, like we're talking about, became more available. Legalization of abortion in some places at that time. So that's why I say, like the sexual revolution, just like all those things became I don't want to say safe, but it became, it was a it probably felt more safe to do. Even though, to your point earlier, these are things that were being done, but all like on the down low and behind closed doors, you know yeah.
Speaker 2I think society in general, just societies in general, not just ours but other societies, it's very common you didn't really run across free love. You didn't really run, I mean, back in like the Roman Empire. They were into that, you know, like they were into orgies and they were into. I mean, it was kind of more of a-.
Speaker 1Freaky, deaky stuff, yeah I mean, there's actually drawings and things that yeah, it's Animals, oh All kinds of shit.
Speaker 2yeah was happening, and that was before religion, though before people were really. I mean, it was more pagan, I guess.
Speaker 1So Well, and I think too, part of nonmarital sex. You know people became much more familiar with how all that worked prior to being in a monogamous relationship To a certain degree, I don't know, that could be good or not good, like if you're experiencing-.
Speaker 2I mean, don't you want to test the merchandise? No, I know that, and I said yeah, but I mean I Women were chased, and I mean men too in some respects, but they'd never slept with anybody. They had no idea what anything was, or what was good, what was bad, nothing. So what if it was really bad and they ended up marrying somebody and they were stuck with them for the rest of their life and it was like really shitty.
Divorce and Marriage Commitment Evolution
Speaker 1But that would really suck. I mean, yeah, it would. Yeah, it would Just throw that out there Well and along with all of this came an increasing divorce rate.
Speaker 2So let's talk about that. So Do you think that the divorce rate increased because of the accepted nature of it, going into the latter half of the century?
Speaker 1I think some of it had to do with the era being that of sexual experimentation for people.
Speaker 2Or just that it was an option, because I think that when people have been married in the past I mean when you get married you don't get married with the idea of getting divorced. And divorce has always been something that's been out there, but nobody really ever disgusted or talked about it. You got married and it didn't really matter what was happening. You stayed married.
Speaker 1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2You hated each other, you stayed married. I mean, I can tell you so many people when I was growing up that I can think of my neighbors whatever that they're always yelling at each other. They didn't like each other, but they stayed married.
Speaker 1I mean, that was me. Let's just put it on the table. We didn't hate each other. No, you said that, but we didn't hate each other. But I mean we were arguing and doing all of that.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, we've all done that before, but this is I stayed married much longer than I should have is what my point is, Because of.
Speaker 1Because of the commitment.
Speaker 2Yeah, or the kids.
Speaker 1Well, the kids the commitment. That's what I mean. It's just like that's one whole giant commitment.
Speaker 2But it's never been an option in the past and it wasn't then Like I was right to your point and what we talked about. So the choice was you're just going to deal with it right, I did.
Speaker 2Well, but I mean, there's people that are married 40, 50 years, that are still dealing with it and they don't even like each other, and so they're staying married because that's the commitment that they made on that day, that fateful day 50 years before, and everybody's fricking miserable, but they stayed married. So that's what was happening before. And then, when you see the evolution of divorce and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I am an I shouldn't say I'm an advocate. Of course I'm an advocate because I've had to go through and experience it, but it's certainly not something that I would ever say well, you know what? If it doesn't work out, you can always get divorced. I don't. That mentality has never been in my mind. So when you look at these people that have been probably really unhappy married and I'm speaking again very generally, because I'm sure there's a lot of happily married people out there but they had an option to not stay. Maybe they were getting beaten, Maybe they were the partner was womanizing or manizing or whatever. Original commitments weren't even being held up, but they felt like they had a choice and that's what the sexual revolution did, I think, for people.
Speaker 2So, yeah, did the increase in divorce take place? Absolutely, that absolutely happened. I think the difference is the increase in divorce. Now, when you see it, like 50% of the marriages out there end in divorce, it's because, A, people are getting married when they really don't have an idea of what it all entails and, B, because they know that there's an option that they can take if they don't really want to do it anymore. I mean, I really think that's where it ends up coming up. So is that part of the sexual revolution or is it just how people have chosen to utilize that resource?
Speaker 1So I have some statistics here, oh.
Speaker 2I can't read, so I'm going to read, okay.
Speaker 1I'm going to read these. So by 1971, more than 75% of Americans thought that premarital sex was acceptable, which was three times an increase from the 1950s, and the number of unmarried Americans at age 20 to 24, more than doubled from 1960 to 1976. Americans were becoming less and less interested in getting married and settling down and, as well, less interested in monogamous relationships. In 1971, 35% of the country said they thought marriage was obsolete.
Speaker 2Interesting yeah, I wonder what the statistic would be now, what the percentage would be.
Speaker 1I don't know what the percentage is.
Speaker 2now I have heard that a lot People. I mean it's kind of a very traditional contract.
Speaker 1You know it's like. What is that? Institution of marriage.
Speaker 2Well, it's a commitment. But if you look at it it can be. It's a commitment two different ways. You can go get married at the justice of the peace that has nothing to do with religion, or you can get married in the church or, you know, through a religious entity of some kind, and it can be a union for the state and a union through the church you know, so it can be done a couple of different ways, but the more I look at it, obviously having been married for a long time and before not really understanding the intricacies, probably, of it the way that I wished I had, I was so young.
Social Changes' Impact on Happiness and Relationships
Speaker 2Now I look at it and I'm like, well, I'm not even the same person I was back then. Now, so, unless you are evolving together, it's like you're gonna end up in a situation where you might be married to someone that you don't even know anymore, and so that's kind of where some of this happens the kids leave, the mom stays home, raises the kids, then they get divorced and because they don't have anything in common anymore. So I think that this was just a discussion that was happening. Finally. People were thinking maybe in their heads and then kind of was something that people could talk about, not to say that it always happened that way, but I feel like the divorce rate is so high now because it's such an option for people. It's just, I don't know, that people work at it as hard as they need to.
Speaker 1Again with the times, I call it temptation. I don't think that's a religious thing. But with the times, the temptation that there is all of the things, whether it is what came about through this sexual revolution or whatever.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, all of it's kind of stepping stones from one thing to the next I mean. I'm not thinking that that just came out of nowhere.
Speaker 1Right, I just in my mind I think about there's that stigma of the 1950s and I know you joke and say Michelle's got her pearls on and whatever you know. But when you look at just outside of women, outside of anything you know, do you think that there's a lot of things that we have gained and that have progressed, but are people truly happier now? Do you think?
Speaker 2That's a really good question. I would say, as a general rule, probably not, and I don't know if it's because of that or not. Maybe it's because people have more knowledge and awareness of things. Maybe the vision of fulfilling all of these ideas isn't as satisfactory maybe as they thought they would be so.
Speaker 1I had a statistic from University of Chicago right. So American happiness ratings from 1972 to 2018 are down, let's see. So in 1972, upwards in about 25 million people rated themselves pretty happy and that has gone down through the years to, like I said, to 2018, to about 19 million. So, but the population's grown too.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that means it's even a smaller percentage, smaller percentage.
Speaker 1But it's gone down, so less happy. And then, in regard to divorce, like we were just talking about, single parents over and that's not a male or female, it's just single parents. Whatever it is, has increased exponentially since 1950 from about 1.5 million and, yes, there's more population that up to like 12 million.
Speaker 2Wow.
Speaker 1Yeah. So it's just interesting and I think all the dynamics of we're talking about the sexual revolution, so there's a lot of these topics that are top of mind when we're thinking about these things but I definitely, I definitely feel like absolutely they have impact the happiness, the nuclear family, the things and how we handle all of that now as opposed to then. Is it better or worse? I'm not saying it's better or it's worse, I just think it definitely has had an impact on the outcome.
Speaker 2And when you say negative and positive impact or just negative, both, yeah, no, negative and positive.
Speaker 1Yeah, negative and positive, there's both sides.
Speaker 2You have to kind of wonder, if that timeframe had not happened and people didn't speak up, what it would be like today.
Speaker 1Right, you know yeah.
Speaker 2Because, going back to that timeframe I think, there was people speaking up about so many different things. It was almost like there was a license to speak up just generally.
Speaker 1I mean you, and I just, I mean you can take our religious experiences and just kind of parallel that our life.
Speaker 1And I could take the Mormon church as 1950 and parallel it with that time, and that's what the Mormon church was for me was like it was in 1950. And then you grow through that and you're living that life because you don't know any difference. And then you kind of come out on your own and here we are in the 60s. That's when I started testing some of the waters I started drinking and trying some.
Speaker 2You mean in the. This for me was in the 80s 80s, I thought, you said 60s.
Speaker 1Well, I'm just saying like it was in the 60s compared to the 50s.
Speaker 2Right. You know for me that was growing up in the Mormon church and then in the 80s.
Speaker 1You went crazy. I did go a little cray-cray and like tried everything I was ever curious about.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Just like I'm sure a lot of people did in the 60s.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm, and did you feel like you were just doing wrong?
Speaker 1I did, but you know I was like living a giant lie, because I would go home and be one person and then in my life, I would be somebody else.
Speaker 1But that's that experimentation kind of what we were talking about too, people in the 60s, and you're doing all the experimenting and that's how you just come to know yourself and figure things out and you know, know how life's gonna be and come to your own conclusions on what you wanna do, which is what everybody did during that time, yes, but I think the information in front of them to be able to have those experiences and to make those assessments wasn't necessarily always available. Right, right, which is why it was a revolution.
Speaker 2Well, for sure, I don't know about you, but it's like I've always felt like some of the things we're talking about makes me feel like I would have been very repressed. I would have been like I couldn't be me Not saying that I'm not?
Speaker 1I think you felt like that. Anyway, that's just what I'm saying. I kinda did. Yeah, I kinda did.
Speaker 2And so I pushed back on it.
Speaker 1Same. But I conformed to a lot of these things, oh me too, me too.
Speaker 2And again, we weren't even really a part of that because we were just little tiny babies when all this stuff was going on, but as we got older, I mean I still conform to it, I conform to all of that only because. I wanted to, you know, have a good moral compass, but I definitely wasn't about being blind about things either.
Speaker 2So I knew that I was gonna probably disappoint people like my parents or whatever, and I thought about those things, but I didn't have those things make decisions for me. I was still kind of a rebel. I mean yeah, even though you put your coffee pot underneath the counter when your mom came.
Speaker 1Well, that was when I was in my 40s, but I just, oh, that's even worse.
Speaker 2Oh, my God.
Speaker 1I ended up, you know, dating a black man and you know, really not.
Speaker 2At least your parents continued talking to you, feeling like I needed permission.
Speaker 1I just like, continued to live my life, regardless of what, to a certain degree, but then at the same time.
Speaker 2Well, if they had pushed back Giant double standard On that stuff, if they had pushed back on that and said absolutely, we will not acknowledge you.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Then I mean would you have looked at it differently?
Speaker 1I have no idea, See that's what I'm talking about. Like I was just reading some article. I would like to say that I would be like well then, fuck you.
Speaker 2Yeah, but would you? But yeah, I said I would like I was reading some article the other day and it was this woman who married a black man and it was in the 40s. She was basically completely dead to her family. They couldn't get housing, they couldn't. I mean it was like just this horrible, horrible thing because she made this decision to fall in love with somebody who was not. It was not an accepted type of relationship.
Speaker 2But there's an example of a woman who said you know what I love this man more and I'm gonna put up with all of these things that are happening.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're living the rest of your life with that person. But there we are. You hope that you are back to the marriage thing.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, I mean well, that's a whole another topic, I know.
Speaker 1So, anyways, obviously we're not gonna change anything, but recognizing a lot of things that have gone on and happened and thankful for a lot of things that went on and that happened, especially as a woman and the things that came from it.
Speaker 2Well, I think there's been a lot of paths that have been cleared for us without us even knowing.
Speaker 1Right, absolutely yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2And not just as women but as men as well being able to feel comfortable with their I'm gonna say, feminine side, but doing things that would be perceived as female responsibilities, for example, in a partnership or whatever they're more. But I think a lot of that comes down to people being just confident people and really having an understanding of their own truth and what they're all made of.
Speaker 2And it takes. I think it takes time to figure those things out, but if you don't have the resources then that could be a different story. Do you know anybody that kind of went through the 70s like as a young adult that you've?
Speaker 1talked to, Not that I've specifically talked to, but I mean my sister. Yeah, I guess you're. My sister was 15 in 1965.
Speaker 2Oh dear, so she went right through it. Yeah, yeah, and there's this guy. He's a massage therapist, just has become a friend over the years. He's probably 10 years older than me, maybe 15 years older or so but he went through all of this kind of stuff, the music and the pushback from the parents, and he grew up in Louisiana, baton Rouge, louisiana.
Speaker 2So it was a little bit of a different dynamic. Back there too, We've had conversations about some of these things, because he's still kind of a hippie. They say hippie, you know like that whole stereotype.
Speaker 2He's still kind of that. He still has a little ponytail and he's still a little, but he's. That's the era he grew up in and it definitely shaped him and the kind of person that he is and but he's happily married and has been married for many years, has great kids, is a really he's a good guy. He just has a very different way of looking at things and I am very drawn to that and just like that is someone who would be my friend you know what I mean Because they're just no judgment.
Speaker 2There's no, no, anything around it. So, I think that's what this timeframe has created for us in a lot of ways, without us even knowing about it is that we have the freedom to be able to be more us, Anyway. Well, you and your free love can go watch Parno and don't even have to use contraception.
Speaker 1Right, cause I'm masturbating. Yeah, just kidding. Wow, yeah, on that note, oh my gosh you're gonna get.
Speaker 2you're gonna get cut off by somebody for even using those words. For Pete's sake, on that note. Yeah, on that note.
Speaker 1Well, just remind you all that we are on all the socials. Download the episode, cause I'm sure there's many moments you're gonna wanna go back and listen to on this one.
Speaker 2Especially the ones from Michelle. The Hope yeah.
Speaker 1But thanks for listening Tune in next week, cause we're gonna have something. You know it's gonna be something fun to listen to. Yeah.
Speaker 2And we might have to expand on a few more of these things.
Speaker 1Yeah, oh, for sure here, because it's like my.
Speaker 2I'm thinking as we've been kind of preparing for this and, oh, I have so many thoughts, but I'll save them for another time.
Speaker 1We're gonna talk about aliens next time.
Speaker 2Oh God, here she goes again With her conspiracy theories and her aliens All right everybody till next time. All right, have a good one, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Bye, bye, bye this.