Can you imagine a time when the phrase "That's just how things are" dictated every aspect of personal and social life? That's what we are here to unravel as we chart the seismic shifts brought on by the sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's. This episode promises a journey through the transformative period that redefined not just bedrooms but the very essence of family, gender roles, and happiness.
Join us as we dissect the contradictions of women's liberation in a society that still grapples with double standards and the objectification of women. We share intimate reflections on the evolving moral compass, the challenges of equality, and the complex tapestry of individual and cultural battles that women face even today. Our candid conversation peels back the layers of empowerment, consent, and the acceptance of diverse lifestyles, offering insights into the hard-won freedoms and the resistance that persists.
As we wrap up, we don't shy away from asking the tough questions: Have the freedoms fought for led to greater fulfillment? How has the definition of a successful family structure evolved with both parents working, and what does this mean for the future of relationships and happiness? We confront the uncomfortable yet crucial realities of the ongoing journey towards personal identity and satisfaction in an ever-changing world. So tune in, as we present an episode that's as much about understanding where we've come from as it is about navigating where we're headed.
Can you imagine a time when the phrase "That's just how things are" dictated every aspect of personal and social life? That's what we are here to unravel as we chart the seismic shifts brought on by the sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's. This episode promises a journey through the transformative period that redefined not just bedrooms but the very essence of family, gender roles, and happiness.
Join us as we dissect the contradictions of women's liberation in a society that still grapples with double standards and the objectification of women. We share intimate reflections on the evolving moral compass, the challenges of equality, and the complex tapestry of individual and cultural battles that women face even today. Our candid conversation peels back the layers of empowerment, consent, and the acceptance of diverse lifestyles, offering insights into the hard-won freedoms and the resistance that persists.
As we wrap up, we don't shy away from asking the tough questions: Have the freedoms fought for led to greater fulfillment? How has the definition of a successful family structure evolved with both parents working, and what does this mean for the future of relationships and happiness? We confront the uncomfortable yet crucial realities of the ongoing journey towards personal identity and satisfaction in an ever-changing world. So tune in, as we present an episode that's as much about understanding where we've come from as it is about navigating where we're headed.
One, two, three, four. Hey, y'all use sexy people out there. This is Michelle.
Speaker 2:She's the sexiest of them all. She's the smexiest.
Speaker 1:Hi Michelle, Too sexy for you.
Speaker 2:This is Julie.
Speaker 1:Yep, here we are.
Speaker 2:Her sidekick. Yeah, and it's funny how she started out with that particular opening line, because what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1:Michelle, we're going to be talking about the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whatever that means.
Speaker 2:We've been having some conversations off-mic about this and we have such interesting perspectives on things. But anyway, before we get into that, how the hell was your day?
Speaker 1:It was good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was good, I feel like now that your birthday is over with oh my gosh, that was the celebration. It was like an extended holiday. I know it made the holiday seem longer, not in a bad way. It's just that I was still drinking and eating cake for an additional week.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I ate so much German chocolate cake. And then I go to the gym and I'm like, oh shit, I need to regroup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. I was going to take a sip of my vodka tonic here, but it is sugar-free.
Speaker 2:It is sugar-free. Yeah, I was saying to Michelle, it's like I had my birthday and I have never felt the love that much. It was so amazing. Just all the energy and the details. That was a good time. Oh my gosh. We had so much fun but I was like can we just do that again next week?
Speaker 1:Can we just?
Speaker 2:keep it going. I kind of like this Celebrate all year. Yeah Well, we've got other birthdays coming up in the future. So in the meantime, getting started on our new year and we've talked about that a little bit in some of the shows that we've had so far this year but we really thought it would be kind of interesting to chat a little bit on the sexual revolution, just because there are so many components to what's happened in the past that directly impact us today women, men, and obviously women and men. We were born in the 60s and so that's when the sexual revolution really was a lot of it's taking place.
Speaker 2:So we didn't really get to experience it per se, but I have a lot of. I have a lot of I'm going to say memories but things we've read over the years, or books we've read or whatever that have come up with that timeframe, even movies and things that have been in that timeframe.
Speaker 1:And then thinking about that timeframe we're talking 60s 70s. And then it just goes from there.
Speaker 2:And then the things that were in the 60s and 70s start to become more normalized with the next generation where, just like anything else, people might not know how something specific originated. So anyway, with that in mind, the sexual revolution.
Speaker 1:Just to be more specific, if you're not familiar with that term, I don't know who wouldn't be. But if you're not familiar with that term, it was a social movement that really challenged traditional codes, if you will, of behavior related to sexuality and interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 2:And so the traditional stuff that was going on. You know Michelle with her pearls and her dress waiting for the slippers and the newspaper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all that. I got your newspaper, I got your pipe. I have no problem being submissive. Let me draw your bath.
Speaker 2:You're joking, right.
Speaker 1:A little bit, okay, maybe just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit, I like to take care of it.
Speaker 2:I know I do too, don't get me wrong. I'm not sitting here saying, oh, you can be submissive if you want, michelle, I don't care. But there's, we have very varying views on submissive behavior. That's a whole nother discussion, probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:But she has a different view maybe than I do. I'm just thinking of, okay, so there's that TV show that was from the 1950s, that Leave it to Beaver, yeah. And then the kid, it was all reruns. You know that were happening and we would maybe get to watch a little bit of after school or something. And that's where I'm making the joke about the woman in her perfectly coiffed hair and her pearl necklace.
Speaker 1:We all know that shit's not true. No, it's not, I mean yeah, there was also my three sons, though Do you remember that it was a single father who had three sons and he was raising him on his own?
Speaker 2:So it wasn't all. Did he have a housekeeper?
Speaker 1:I don't remember. Oh, probably, probably, now that we're talking about, it.
Speaker 2:I don't really remember that show per se but. I do remember the other one, and only because at the time it didn't really seem like it was any big deal, because it was very I should say very, but somewhat similar to the way we grew up you know, with very traditional households having the dinner on the table, it had to be damn hot or it got sent back, you know that happened in my house.
Speaker 2:Oh, that didn't happen at my house, yeah, it had to be super hot and like right out, and of course there were no microwaves back then, so things have to be re warmed up or whatever, but anyway it had to be on the table at a certain time and the house is clean and the dishes are done and the kids are quiet and doing everything they're supposed to. That's what I, that's what I think of when I think of the fifties.
Speaker 1:I don't think having dinner together, though is, is a bad thing.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I don't either.
Speaker 1:I think it's definitely a major bonus aside from you know people, so there's a lot of components of this that have to do with people and idiosyncrasies and what they demand. So there's, there's that, but in general, if we're, if we're speaking in generalities, you know having we were the same way Dinner. It wasn't at a specific time that I remember, I just remember we always had dinner, it seems like when dad got home from work, so around five, five o'clock, something like that five, six o'clock.
Speaker 2:But everybody was together.
Speaker 1:But we yeah.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree with you that that is probably one of the breakdowns that has taken place over the last several decades and, in particular, had experienced it kind of myself, really when your, your families, are going, going, going in all these different directions and you're having Cheerios for dinner at nine o'clock at night because they've been at baseball practice or whatever.
Speaker 1:What does this have to do with the sexual revolution? You might be asking yourself. Well, it kind of does, but we'll get into that, yeah, We'll get into that too.
Speaker 2:So I think, when one thing about the sexual revolution that I think of is, if you're looking at the sixties and sixties to seventies, think about how many things were taking place in our world and not only just our country but in our world.
Speaker 2:During that timeframe there was so much that happened and the music and everything that was from that timeframe when I, when I hear some of it, all I think about is the Vietnam War, which was started in the sixties, late sixties. We had um, kennedy was killed, you know, the the civil rights movement happened. We had a lot of laws and things that were passed, uh, federally, you know, which were nice Like up until 1964, there was no, no such thing allowed as interracial marriages, an example just things that you don't even think about today and you know families that were husband and a wife and their kids, and everything was the norm, and so if you were, say, a divorced woman, you were kind of a pariah in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:So what is? I don't, I don't know the meaning of that word.
Speaker 2:So basically, you were like a, you're like a well, this is my word, but you're kind of like a leper.
Speaker 1:Like you're, just like you know, ostracized and kind of an outcast of society.
Speaker 2:You might be involved in different things, but you're not in the social circles, You're not in that kind of thing because you're a divorced woman and it's funny because I even felt that way when I first got divorced. You know, it's just like, oh my gosh, you're getting judged or my kids are getting judged or whatever.
Speaker 2:So back then it was a big deal when people were divorced, and more of a big deal, I think, for women than that was for men. But just because you know, women were home and taking care of the home and a lot of times didn't have the education or whatever.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, the Woodstock, all of those things, when you started thinking about people having a voice. This is the timeframe when people had more of a voice and it was related more to sex. Honestly with you, know, or like do you ever hear about? Like women burning their bra?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was during this timeframe too, or Gloria Stein.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of a feminist. I mean peace, love sex, all that kind of stuff, well, and actually even the acceptance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Contraception was kind of coming up during that time as well, and Roe v Wade, all the abortion stuff was coming up. So these topics that were impacting this society as a whole, but really kind of impacting women, because some of these things were directly related to women birth control that sort of thing were on the forefront.
Speaker 1:Then also there were, there were all of those things, but then through this transitional time, the public nudity, pornography, premarital sex, all of those kinds of things, alternative forms of sexuality, that were coming to the forefront. Playboy magazine, all of these things, and it kind of, in so many ways though we're trying to be free, love and and get our, get a voice I'm speaking to women then, through so many of those things then we became, you know, we had the stigma of being an object Correct, and you know so.
Speaker 1:A lot of those things weren't necessarily as they were happening. You know, of course we went through that transition as well as women Right Before we even got to. It was really once we moved through all of that, through the 60s and the 70s, that we kind of like peaked and you know, we're finally on the other side of that stuff.
Speaker 2:You have to kind of wonder if, during that time frame, when you had women saying we want more rights, we want to have more freedom, all those things, whether they really understood and realized that their sexuality would be used that way.
Speaker 1:And some of the some of the more controversial aspects I guess you could say is that so many of these things contributed to the decline in moral values Perceived. When it comes to, you know, fidelity, marital commitment those kinds of things because of the emphasis on sexual liberation in so many forms and undermining the importance in maintaining strong family units and stable relationships. I mean really Okay.
Speaker 2:But let's, let's talk about that for a second then because, why? Why, by women coming into their own, was all of that degraded? Why was the moral compass.
Speaker 1:Why was it compromised?
Speaker 2:But the moral compass. So the version of moral compass is different from one person to the other. But why was that? Because women were coming into their own. Why was it compromised?
Speaker 1:I don't think it's necessarily women coming into their own. That's, this is what I'm saying. It's like that with the sexual revolution, all of those things that I was just talking about the decline of moral values, fidelity, marital commitment, those kinds of things. Because of the free love, people are smoking weed, which was something not new, but to do it so freely.
Speaker 2:Right, it was.
Speaker 1:it was illegal still make you feel like you know you're able to do so many things outside of what those commitments might be. So that's, that's what I'm. I'm not talking about women and getting a voice is just, in general, those really their moral commitments in marriage, those kinds of things that I'm talking about. So when you have all this going on around you, it's it's temptation that comes in then to kind of rock that world of for women or for everybody.
Speaker 2:I'm just talking about everybody, well, because I think a lot of these things were a lot of these things were already happening. They're just happening behind the scenes.
Speaker 1:Not like they were in the 60s and 70s.
Speaker 2:No, but I'm saying prior to that, we're you know we're talking fidelity and yeah but it was all on the DL. I mean, a lot of this stuff was on the DL. Men were having married and having relationships and I'm sure women were to think women were to yeah, probably, but if? But they were literally pariahs that they got caught. They were called whores. They were called you know, we still are, we're not a whore.
Speaker 1:We still are. I'm not a hoe, I'm just. You know what I'm saying. You're a hoe. Women.
Speaker 2:I know, but see that that's what I wanted here we are in 2024 and that stigma is still there.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 2:Why is it that we need to get a man?
Speaker 1:on here to explain that to whores. I know when are you guys.
Speaker 2:It's like why are you not a hoe? You guys are called players. You know, we're just called hoes and bitches, hoes and bitches or you know like loose or lack of whatever, I don't know. It's all. It's all coined differently, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it's still is.
Speaker 1:So really, how much progress have we made?
Speaker 2:I mean really, I think we're at the point where I shouldn't say everybody obviously I'm speaking in generalities but we're at the point where we just don't give a shit. I mean, I don't give a shit if that man over there thinks I'm a hoe.
Speaker 1:I think the main thing and one of the main things is through. You know so so much of this and with with the openness and the education and all of those things that come along with this. Uh, women have definitely, I would say, in the last 20 years so since you know the nineties ish. To be able to come to know your worth as a woman?
Speaker 2:Yes, and what all entails with that, so they're worth not being just.
Speaker 1:When I say this, I don't say it lightly, but it's like you know, raising children and keeping your house and I just mean your worth as a woman, so that, as you know, like what we were talking about, when, when there is a stigma put on us, whatever the circumstances might be, whether it's sexual, you know promiscuity, or or you know whatever. Uh, women, I think now are much more. They have a strength that they didn't have before because of the education as a woman and knowing that we do some of the hardest things that there are to do, you know, as single, single women raising children men do it too. We carry them for nine months and we birth them.
Speaker 1:That is something that men some might take this wrong. It doesn't really matter, but that is something that men will never be able to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's just a straight up fact it has nothing to do with whether I mean I don't know that people could take that wrong. They can't give it, I can't give birth. Well, they can. They can impregnate people.
Speaker 1:They can impregnate, but I'm just. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but yes, as women, being able to, to know our worth so that, when living our lives in such a way, we know differently.
Speaker 1:So, if we're looking at this timeframe as one, you know where there was a lasting impact on society when it came to women, for and we're speaking about women right now because this is really, I think a lot of the sexual revolution was kind of geared toward or surrounding there's things that women I don't think it surrounded women, but I think there were there was definitely a lot that women gained through that, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was when you heard more about women having sex before marriage, for example, and you know the single culture, you know being out there and being like wow it's. You don't have to be married to be a person. You don't have to be married to have an identity. You know being single is not a bad thing. But I go back to this is all we're talking about. Women can have sex before marriage and it's the stigma, maybe, but there were women having sex before marriage, but they were having sex with men who were, who were married or not married you know so it's like, but the stigma is different.
Speaker 1:I mean nobody cared.
Speaker 2:They think it's weird if the guy didn't do that Right. That's expected.
Speaker 1:But see, is it.
Speaker 2:I mean, do they not have self-control? I'm just saying, guys are not animals.
Speaker 1:but you know, that's just what came to my mind in that moment, like, well, I mean, like people say that still, like you know, guys are different when it comes to those needs. Don't you ever hear that? I've heard that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think women are too.
Speaker 2:Well, I think women just haven't had as much discussion about it like outwardly or it's not a. It's not a commonly discussed thing or common knowledge.
Speaker 1:I think it's all part of two. Like where women, you know they, they became this, what is the word you know? Like with Playboy and objects, objects, you know, sexual objects trophy wives, you know you just there's all of those things.
Speaker 2:And maybe they're okay with that. I mean, maybe it's like you mean it's if women were put in those positions you know they're pinups or they're a Playboy model or whatever. It's like they're in a position to be sexualized. They know they're going to be, if they're in a magazine or you know they're working at a gentleman's club or something like that right, they're going to be more sexualized.
Speaker 1:It just comes with the territory Stripping.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean definitely the, the increased awareness for free you know that was around free sex, of course can contributed to the women's rights movements. To your point, julie I know that's what you were saying before and with society as a whole, you know, but an open world for women to live and work in. Well, I think the.
Speaker 2:I think, with the time frame we're talking about, there was. It was a time frame really, where it was increasingly liberal and open to women to live and to work and to not really apologize for it. And I'm sure there was a ton of pushback, tons of pushback on all of that, right. But there was so much change happening in our country as a general rule it was kind of and not not related to the sexual revolution, but even like the pill becoming available during that time frame. But they almost had to be extreme with their views, the people, because they had to overshadow all this other stuff. You couldn't just have a soft voice about it, right?
Speaker 1:It's just like anything else that needed to be that needed change.
Speaker 2:I mean, when you're talking about civil rights as an example, you know it's like you couldn't have a soft voice about that. There had to be things taking place that brought attention to it. So, with these kinds of things, women were standing up saying men too, because men probably liked the fact that that it was. The roles were not necessarily going to be so black and white.
Speaker 1:I'm sure men liked the fact that women were being more free with sex.
Speaker 2:Come on now, I know Come on now, but they were waiting till they were married too, right? Men, yeah, no, they weren't. How come? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't think women were either, I just don't think anybody I mean. Think about how we were raised. Yeah, I know, I mean, did we follow that? No?
Speaker 2:But I mean close, followed it kind of close. But I mean I don't really know a lot of people that have followed that.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's a whole other topic, Jules.
Speaker 2:Fine. So what are some of the things that came about during the sexual revolution?
Speaker 1:So some of the things as it was brought to the forefront and involved were things like books, novels. That's kind of when erotic, especially novels were then, because it used to be that it was governed on what could be printed and what couldn't. So that was somewhat lifted and that became more free and available.
Speaker 2:Some more erotic, more erotic reading materials? Yes, probably not, with pictures and on stage and screen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Like movies deep throat.
Speaker 2:That was a pornography, that's that.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's part of this too, but it was actually yes, I have, you have, I haven't Years ago, but yeah, but as far as stage and screen goes, I was looking at this and it was more Swedish. There was a European.
Speaker 2:I think that when you're looking at that, like Sweden and so they're a little bit more progressive in their process, definitely, definitely. So women were looked at differently.
Speaker 1:They contributed to sexual liberation with those types of sexually themed films that challenged the conservative international standards that there were at that time.
Speaker 2:Probably created a ruckus too.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if they had boycotts or if they had like, if they had like protests out in front of movie theaters or anything that had some of these.
Speaker 1:All the protests at that time. I think was about the Vietnam War, who knows? Yeah, just roll it all in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is actually true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know whenever I hear like the doors or rolling stones or any that's all I think about. Or you think about forced gump.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, that movie forced gump, that's what I think about then too.
Speaker 2:Fashion also was one of the things that was affected. Yeah, because some of the dress was considered super modest, you know, like the hemlines and the necklines.
Speaker 1:And that's when the 60s, when the miniskirts that came out and topless. Well, they called it a monokini because it was a topless bikini. Essentially, we're just wearing the bottoms.
Speaker 2:But where were those worn? I mean? I mean I did. They don't have any like topless places around here.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm sure people found their nudist beach wherever you want to go. Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe they went to Europe. That could be true. The one thing that I and this is, I think, a topic that we'll have to come up with or discuss at another time but there was a tremendous amount of normalization around pornography and that pornography was very much of an underground world. And to this day and now, with the internet, it's a totally different ball and I almost feel like it's kind of so out there, and I don't even want to know how many people watch it. But I know there's a lot, and mostly men, I'm sure, that do. I just don't get it.
Speaker 2:Women do too.
Speaker 1:They do probably too but I just, I don't, I know people that Michelle. No, but like I know, I know people, couples, couples, and a friend in particular, like she, you know she's single, she doesn't always have a man, and so I just watch a little porn. You know, had a little good time with myself, yeah, I mean. So I think it's probably more would be very eye-opening, truly, if it was all opened up and put on the table. You might be surprised.
Speaker 2:If what was all opened up.
Speaker 1:People and their habits with pornography. Oh yeah, I think it's. I mean there's relationships.
Speaker 2:I know that are have been ruined because of it because they can't get enough of it. But you got it on your phone, you've got it on your computer, you've got, I mean, it's everywhere and it to me it's I don't want to say sad. I think people need whatever they need and I'm not going to necessarily judge, but it kind of makes me feel like it. It, I want to say, normalizes.
Speaker 1:It was all part of the sexual revolution, though the normalization of that activity with, like I brought up, playboy it was in 1971, I think that Playboy stopped airbrushing pubic hair out of the center. Full pictures.
Speaker 2:Really Uh-huh. That's the magazine that all the guys all the kids would hide in there.
Speaker 1:That alone caused that magazine to hit its all time peak circulation of more than 7 million copies in 1972.
Speaker 2:Wow, 7 million let's see the pubes ladies, they people wanted to see the pubes Well that's when they stopped airbrushing them out.
Speaker 1:Could they even?
Speaker 2:airbrush back then.
Speaker 1:Of course they could.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was in 1972. Guys like the Big Old Bush. I guess, and 72 was also back to deep throat. That's when it became a popular movie for couples. Really yeah, I think that was kind of a. Thing.
Speaker 2:Well, probably all kinds of different. When we talk about sexual revolution, it's not just monogamous sex, it's probably a lot of different things, a lot of people experimenting with things and swingers and you know orgies, who knows? I mean, I think that probably was the time when just about anything would go that was the first porn movie to earn a gross of a million dollars.
Speaker 1:Was it really? That's the deep throat one that was in?
Speaker 2:72 also. Yep, didn't they make a remake? Isn't that the song bong bong, bong bong? And where it came from, I have no idea. Here's your innocent little Catholic girl and your little.
Speaker 1:Mormon girl who are talking about deep throat?
Speaker 2:Good job, Michelle.
Speaker 1:But yeah, normalization of that pornography has definitely come about and I think there's less stigma attached to people watching it and it was more in the 80s or like the end of the 80s where mainstream movies not pornography here, but just mainstream movies depicted sexual intercourse as entertainment. I remember seeing an officer and a gentleman, probably in the 80s, and Deborah Winger and Richard Geer like that one scene you don't really see that they're having. I mean it was a hot, steamy sex. I was just like wow.
Speaker 2:Well, now it's just like and that was just like.
Speaker 1:Which is? I mean, it's kind of like.
Speaker 2:I don't need to watch that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the normalization of pornography.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Feminism and sexual liberation. So alternative lifestyles, unconventional dress things, religions and their conservative social morals. Use of cannabis, so marijuana weed. That became popular. Other recreational drugs also.
Speaker 2:Yeah, acid and yeah, there's a lot of that, a lot of drugs.
Speaker 1:It's just a relaxed attitude in general, being sarcastic, humble, self-imposed. I think that kind of as a result of all of that, all of those other habitual things came along with that. So do you think?
Speaker 2:that because of this timeframe, people just became more comfortable being who they truly were, Just generally speaking if you're talking about more casualness, well, I just don't know if it's who they truly were.
Speaker 1:I think it was just the exploration of the possibilities of who they were.
Speaker 2:But even like you're talking, about, like respectful and church stuff, you know, or people having a moral compass, and people. When I say the kids, I'm thinking people in that timeframe were probably like 20s and 30s, even maybe in the late teens, 20s and 30s. That's who a lot of these people are that we're talking about, because they were in the process of exploration anyway.
Speaker 2:And so their generation was doing it differently than the generation before who had so many boundaries and rules around them, and these guys, just like, were breaking them and saying, screw you, I'm just I'm checking it out.
Speaker 1:I think we're still doing that though. Well, I think it depends on what?
Speaker 2:where's the pushback coming from, though?
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it's like when you think about your kids, example, or I think about my kids. It's like we don't have the same thought processes in a lot of cases about some of these things that we're mentioning, like, for example, premarital sex.
Speaker 2:It's like, do I tell my kids? It's like you're gonna go to hell if you're caught masturbating. No, but that's what they told them back in the 60s. I mean, or, oh my God, they're living together. It's like you're living in sin. I don't care. I mean that stuff I don't care about. I think all of those things are. I don't look at them the same way that people did from the generations prior to that.
Speaker 2:but there's still people that are our age or even younger that do believe all those things, which is totally fine. But it does come from the dynamics around how not they were raised necessarily, but what they've kind of grown into, because I was raised with all of those parameters in place, as were you right.
Speaker 1:But we didn't end up growing up to portray all of the things that we're talking about that's what I'm saying is, I think it continues this exploration, because really you can talk, we can talk about the sexual revolution and all the things that came through it and all of this stuff which are facts and it happened and it is what it is. But I think to a certain degree it continues through the generations, just to your point, like you were saying, and people are gonna continue to explore who they are by doing different things outside of how they were raised. So that's what I meant when I said that. I just think it will continue. Of course, not to the degree this was a pivotal time in history, but I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about it from the perspective that I grew up in a very conservative household, right, and I mean my kids grew up with parents who had come from conservative households. But, to your point, we were another generation or two removed from what was happening there.
Speaker 2:But I think that some of the things that came up during that timeframe naturally just kind of were absorbed through us through osmosis. We just kind of took them in. Our environment was different because of what was happening, and if we were conforming to every single thing that was going on around us or what we were told to do, we would have continued on down that path.
Speaker 1:I think that there's a lot of things, though, through that that aren't horrible, Correct, and I think that in certain ways I'm sure you would agree with this I tend to be a bit more conservative when it comes to some of this stuff. If you wanna use that word conservative, I don't mean in a political way. I did stay home with my kids a lot of years. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2:No, I don't either, but I think now it's more of a choice. It's a discussion Like we were talking about before. It might be the male in the relationship that is staying home and instead of the well, you never in a million years would have seen that before, because there's no way in hell a guy was gonna stay home and take care of his kids, that was, or even I mean.
Speaker 2:now we've got family leave for men and it's like they'll come home for six, eight weeks or whatever and hang out with the baby and the mom and then he goes back to the other work and the mom's taste.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I don't have a problem with that either. I think I've said this a few times. It's like we talked earlier about like having dinner around the table. I believe that my family structure was directly impacted by the fact that our schedules were such to where we didn't make that family time the priority. You don't even look at it that way at the time. You're just like trying to fit all the things in. But if we had more time together, if they were more connected, would it have been different? A?
Speaker 2:lot of that is because of where we're at in this world and both parents have to be outside of the home really to make it, which means that it does the responsibility for failure fall on the person whose traditional role has been in the past to be home, be that glue, be the one that puts this stuff on the table. Is it our responsibility to say that the failure of the family unit in regard to this is because women have become more aware?
Speaker 1:I think, whether it's a man or a woman, no other success can compensate for failure in the home. I really believe that. Say that again, whether it's a man or a woman there's no other success outside the home that can compensate for failure in the home.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, okay, I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a man or a woman?
Speaker 2:Well, but where does the responsibility lie?
Speaker 1:traditionally, Traditionally, I think that it lies. I don't know that. Traditionally lie, it's both, it's both.
Speaker 2:Well, everybody has their role. Yeah, but when we're talking about things such as family structure, do you feel like the family structure has been directly impacted overall on a negative level? I'm just gonna say, overall because of Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1:So why Because of the things we're talking about, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:But why? That's the question. Because it's like because women can't have cut and I know we we're going back and forth and we're saying well, it's not.
Speaker 1:it's not just about women, it is in a lot because when the sexual revolution is talking about the things that came through it. Yes, the women and all of a sudden the women have more.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's just like in conversation with elderly people who shall remain nameless who put all of their energy, all of their time, all of their commitment into these little humans right, and then the other person in the relationship didn't do the same thing, and then that person doesn't have the education, doesn't have the friend-based, doesn't have all of the things that they would have had had they expanded their horizons. And perhaps the child has had helicopter parents this whole time because those parents didn't let go. I don't know, that's maybe a more specific example, but I do believe that there is a change to the way our society looks at women and men, but I don't know. That it's all. I think we have to look at the whole big picture to say if there's a failure in the family unit, where does the failure come from? I'm not trying to point fingers at one person or another, I'm just saying, over the course of time I know.
Speaker 1:I'm just talking about all of these things that came to the forefront, that brought about so much. That is going to draw attention away from what you got going on in your home. So that's where some of that breakdown is going to start happening. When you've got Playboy Magazine and you've got women running around topless and just all of these things contraception I can have sex without worrying that I'm going to get caught or I can be safe, All of those things that we didn't have before.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying they're bad things. We're just talking about where the breakdown can come from.
Speaker 1:And when you have access to and all of these things are more in your face and available, those breakdowns or it's temptation, those things are going to happen. I'm not saying right or wrong, good or bad, whatever it is, it just is what it is, and so much of it has to do with how the people are, how you are as a person Because I was just listening to you. My mom. She had eight children. She stayed home with all her children. She's completely engaged in doing things on her own.
Speaker 2:She's unique for her time, for her era.
Speaker 1:She's 96 years old, she has interest, she has a cell phone, she's on the computer, she does genealogy. She still lives alone. There's just like all those things. So much of it has to do with people and within themselves and what they choose to do in life. The breakdown is going to kind of everybody's responsible for that. I don't pin it on a man or a woman. Everybody's responsible for whatever. The breakdown is my divorce, not just my fault or my husband's fault at the time. It's a combination of many things. When we're talking about breakdown, Back to some of these things in the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it's just so interesting because there's so many things that parlay into several decades later.
Speaker 1:You just leave these fancy words parlay, whatever the other word was.
Speaker 2:I'm trying not to say let's dial back. She says I say that I like it, I like it, but the contraception.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, back to some of these things that came through the sexual revolution, contraception, which I just mentioned, being more readily available and, of course yes, I completely agree for women and being able to have access to that. Yes, it was definitely progress and it was a good thing.
Speaker 2:Do you know if there's contraception beyond? And this is a legit question do they have? It for men, do you know?
Speaker 1:Oh, because that condoms. No, I meant, you know, like trick question.
Speaker 2:I meant like we were talking about the 60s, that's when the pill came out. Is there anything like that for guys? I don't know, I don't either, just curious. I've never really heard of anything.
Speaker 1:I don't think so, not that I know of. I mean, we have. Yeah, there's so much more that's involved with the woman's body, I know, with the menstrual cycle and all of that stuff. And, like I said, I mean we're the ones that go through all that. We are the only ones that'll ever birth a baby.
Speaker 2:And it hurts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hurts so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, so and the premarital sex thing heavily, heavily stigmatized. When we were younger or during that time frame or even before that, I mean, having sex before being married was just like you were dirty. Then the funny thing is a guy's having sex before marriage and he's not dirty, so I just, it's these little double standards that I'm just.
Speaker 2:I know that. That's just the way it is. Michelle's giving me this look like Julie, you need to let it go. I just want her to acknowledge the fact that there's a double standard. There has been. Absolutely Okay, then I can let it go now. Yeah, I can let it go. Of course there's a double standard I know, I just thought about that before. I just don't understand why.
Speaker 1:I said we're considered hosabitches.
Speaker 2:Do you, do you still think, then, that there's a double standard? Yes, really, to the same not to the same degree, though.
Speaker 1:I mean not to the same degree, no, I mean men have become much more aware of so many things when it comes to women, much more educated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and in tune frankly, more in tune as well, you know. So I think you're probably right there is still stigma, but at the same time I would have to say that I don't think it's as big of a deal, because we meaning women in general don't really give a shit. It's like I don't really care if someone's going to call me a hoe because they think that I'm sleeping with someone before I get married. I'm going to look at them like what? Decade did you pop out of.
Speaker 1:You might not care, but there are plenty of women that still do.
Speaker 2:Sure, I'm just saying myself yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So free love, which is another big topic, through the sexual revolution.
Speaker 2:That just means like all forms of love, not just like monogamous love, correct?
Speaker 1:Okay, I think initially it was to start the awareness for the separation that whole between church and state things that had to do with sexual stuff.
Speaker 2:So Because there were a lot of parameters and rules and things, yeah, so that hence was the yeah.
Speaker 1:And because birth control and adultery, you know, extramarital affairs, sex outside of marriage, sex before marriage, all of those things really started to become a thing.
Speaker 2:So or actually even sex for pleasure, because sex for pleasure really was not what it was designed. I mean, I just know from design it wasn't. I don't know, then why do we have a G spot and have, or I mean, I don't know, that's just a whole another thing. But yeah, but it really was not intent. Nobody really paid attention to that kind of stuff. It was more for, you know, making babies and carrying on the population.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why premarital sex was. That was a big thing. Well, because it's supposed to be for pleasure, it was very stigmatized at that time, but during 60s and 70s became much more widely accepted.
Speaker 2:That's also when women actually did start talking about orgasm.
Speaker 1:Orgasm. That's when birth control, like we're talking about, became more available. Legalization of abortion in some places at that time. So that's why I say, like the sexual revolution, just like all those things became I don't want to say safe, but it became, it was a it probably felt more safe to do. Even though, to your point earlier, these are things that were being done, but all like on the down low and behind closed doors, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:I think society in general, just societies in general, not just ours but other societies, it's very common you didn't really run across free love. You didn't really run, I mean, back in like the Roman Empire. They were into that, you know, like they were into orgies and they were into. I mean, it was kind of more of a-.
Speaker 1:Freaky, deaky stuff, yeah I mean, there's actually drawings and things that yeah, it's Animals, oh All kinds of shit.
Speaker 2:yeah was happening, and that was before religion, though before people were really. I mean, it was more pagan, I guess.
Speaker 1:So Well, and I think too, part of nonmarital sex. You know people became much more familiar with how all that worked prior to being in a monogamous relationship To a certain degree, I don't know, that could be good or not good, like if you're experiencing-.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't you want to test the merchandise? No, I know that, and I said yeah, but I mean I Women were chased, and I mean men too in some respects, but they'd never slept with anybody. They had no idea what anything was, or what was good, what was bad, nothing. So what if it was really bad and they ended up marrying somebody and they were stuck with them for the rest of their life and it was like really shitty.
Speaker 1:But that would really suck. I mean, yeah, it would. Yeah, it would Just throw that out there Well and along with all of this came an increasing divorce rate.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about that. So Do you think that the divorce rate increased because of the accepted nature of it, going into the latter half of the century?
Speaker 1:I think some of it had to do with the era being that of sexual experimentation for people.
Speaker 2:Or just that it was an option, because I think that when people have been married in the past I mean when you get married you don't get married with the idea of getting divorced. And divorce has always been something that's been out there, but nobody really ever disgusted or talked about it. You got married and it didn't really matter what was happening. You stayed married.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:You hated each other, you stayed married. I mean, I can tell you so many people when I was growing up that I can think of my neighbors whatever that they're always yelling at each other. They didn't like each other, but they stayed married.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was me. Let's just put it on the table. We didn't hate each other. No, you said that, but we didn't hate each other. But I mean we were arguing and doing all of that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, we've all done that before, but this is I stayed married much longer than I should have is what my point is, Because of.
Speaker 1:Because of the commitment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or the kids.
Speaker 1:Well, the kids the commitment. That's what I mean. It's just like that's one whole giant commitment.
Speaker 2:But it's never been an option in the past and it wasn't then Like I was right to your point and what we talked about. So the choice was you're just going to deal with it right, I did.
Speaker 2:Well, but I mean, there's people that are married 40, 50 years, that are still dealing with it and they don't even like each other, and so they're staying married because that's the commitment that they made on that day, that fateful day 50 years before, and everybody's fricking miserable, but they stayed married. So that's what was happening before. And then, when you see the evolution of divorce and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I am an I shouldn't say I'm an advocate. Of course I'm an advocate because I've had to go through and experience it, but it's certainly not something that I would ever say well, you know what? If it doesn't work out, you can always get divorced. I don't. That mentality has never been in my mind. So when you look at these people that have been probably really unhappy married and I'm speaking again very generally, because I'm sure there's a lot of happily married people out there but they had an option to not stay. Maybe they were getting beaten, Maybe they were the partner was womanizing or manizing or whatever. Original commitments weren't even being held up, but they felt like they had a choice and that's what the sexual revolution did, I think, for people.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, did the increase in divorce take place? Absolutely, that absolutely happened. I think the difference is the increase in divorce. Now, when you see it, like 50% of the marriages out there end in divorce, it's because, A, people are getting married when they really don't have an idea of what it all entails and, B, because they know that there's an option that they can take if they don't really want to do it anymore. I mean, I really think that's where it ends up coming up. So is that part of the sexual revolution or is it just how people have chosen to utilize that resource?
Speaker 1:So I have some statistics here, oh.
Speaker 2:I can't read, so I'm going to read, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read these. So by 1971, more than 75% of Americans thought that premarital sex was acceptable, which was three times an increase from the 1950s, and the number of unmarried Americans at age 20 to 24, more than doubled from 1960 to 1976. Americans were becoming less and less interested in getting married and settling down and, as well, less interested in monogamous relationships. In 1971, 35% of the country said they thought marriage was obsolete.
Speaker 2:Interesting yeah, I wonder what the statistic would be now, what the percentage would be.
Speaker 1:I don't know what the percentage is.
Speaker 2:now I have heard that a lot People. I mean it's kind of a very traditional contract.
Speaker 1:You know it's like. What is that? Institution of marriage.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a commitment. But if you look at it it can be. It's a commitment two different ways. You can go get married at the justice of the peace that has nothing to do with religion, or you can get married in the church or, you know, through a religious entity of some kind, and it can be a union for the state and a union through the church you know, so it can be done a couple of different ways, but the more I look at it, obviously having been married for a long time and before not really understanding the intricacies, probably, of it the way that I wished I had, I was so young.
Speaker 2:Now I look at it and I'm like, well, I'm not even the same person I was back then. Now, so, unless you are evolving together, it's like you're gonna end up in a situation where you might be married to someone that you don't even know anymore, and so that's kind of where some of this happens the kids leave, the mom stays home, raises the kids, then they get divorced and because they don't have anything in common anymore. So I think that this was just a discussion that was happening. Finally. People were thinking maybe in their heads and then kind of was something that people could talk about, not to say that it always happened that way, but I feel like the divorce rate is so high now because it's such an option for people. It's just, I don't know, that people work at it as hard as they need to.
Speaker 1:Again with the times, I call it temptation. I don't think that's a religious thing. But with the times, the temptation that there is all of the things, whether it is what came about through this sexual revolution or whatever.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, all of it's kind of stepping stones from one thing to the next I mean. I'm not thinking that that just came out of nowhere.
Speaker 1:Right, I just in my mind I think about there's that stigma of the 1950s and I know you joke and say Michelle's got her pearls on and whatever you know. But when you look at just outside of women, outside of anything you know, do you think that there's a lot of things that we have gained and that have progressed, but are people truly happier now? Do you think?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. I would say, as a general rule, probably not, and I don't know if it's because of that or not. Maybe it's because people have more knowledge and awareness of things. Maybe the vision of fulfilling all of these ideas isn't as satisfactory maybe as they thought they would be so.
Speaker 1:I had a statistic from University of Chicago right. So American happiness ratings from 1972 to 2018 are down, let's see. So in 1972, upwards in about 25 million people rated themselves pretty happy and that has gone down through the years to, like I said, to 2018, to about 19 million. So, but the population's grown too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that means it's even a smaller percentage, smaller percentage.
Speaker 1:But it's gone down, so less happy. And then, in regard to divorce, like we were just talking about, single parents over and that's not a male or female, it's just single parents. Whatever it is, has increased exponentially since 1950 from about 1.5 million and, yes, there's more population that up to like 12 million.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's just interesting and I think all the dynamics of we're talking about the sexual revolution, so there's a lot of these topics that are top of mind when we're thinking about these things but I definitely, I definitely feel like absolutely they have impact the happiness, the nuclear family, the things and how we handle all of that now as opposed to then. Is it better or worse? I'm not saying it's better or it's worse, I just think it definitely has had an impact on the outcome.
Speaker 2:And when you say negative and positive impact or just negative, both, yeah, no, negative and positive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, negative and positive, there's both sides.
Speaker 2:You have to kind of wonder, if that timeframe had not happened and people didn't speak up, what it would be like today.
Speaker 1:Right, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, going back to that timeframe I think, there was people speaking up about so many different things. It was almost like there was a license to speak up just generally.
Speaker 1:I mean you, and I just, I mean you can take our religious experiences and just kind of parallel that our life.
Speaker 1:And I could take the Mormon church as 1950 and parallel it with that time, and that's what the Mormon church was for me was like it was in 1950. And then you grow through that and you're living that life because you don't know any difference. And then you kind of come out on your own and here we are in the 60s. That's when I started testing some of the waters I started drinking and trying some.
Speaker 2:You mean in the. This for me was in the 80s 80s, I thought, you said 60s.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm just saying like it was in the 60s compared to the 50s.
Speaker 2:Right. You know for me that was growing up in the Mormon church and then in the 80s.
Speaker 1:You went crazy. I did go a little cray-cray and like tried everything I was ever curious about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just like I'm sure a lot of people did in the 60s.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, and did you feel like you were just doing wrong?
Speaker 1:I did, but you know I was like living a giant lie, because I would go home and be one person and then in my life, I would be somebody else.
Speaker 1:But that's that experimentation kind of what we were talking about too, people in the 60s, and you're doing all the experimenting and that's how you just come to know yourself and figure things out and you know, know how life's gonna be and come to your own conclusions on what you wanna do, which is what everybody did during that time, yes, but I think the information in front of them to be able to have those experiences and to make those assessments wasn't necessarily always available. Right, right, which is why it was a revolution.
Speaker 2:Well, for sure, I don't know about you, but it's like I've always felt like some of the things we're talking about makes me feel like I would have been very repressed. I would have been like I couldn't be me Not saying that I'm not?
Speaker 1:I think you felt like that. Anyway, that's just what I'm saying. I kinda did. Yeah, I kinda did.
Speaker 2:And so I pushed back on it.
Speaker 1:Same. But I conformed to a lot of these things, oh me too, me too.
Speaker 2:And again, we weren't even really a part of that because we were just little tiny babies when all this stuff was going on, but as we got older, I mean I still conform to it, I conform to all of that only because. I wanted to, you know, have a good moral compass, but I definitely wasn't about being blind about things either.
Speaker 2:So I knew that I was gonna probably disappoint people like my parents or whatever, and I thought about those things, but I didn't have those things make decisions for me. I was still kind of a rebel. I mean yeah, even though you put your coffee pot underneath the counter when your mom came.
Speaker 1:Well, that was when I was in my 40s, but I just, oh, that's even worse.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:I ended up, you know, dating a black man and you know, really not.
Speaker 2:At least your parents continued talking to you, feeling like I needed permission.
Speaker 1:I just like, continued to live my life, regardless of what, to a certain degree, but then at the same time.
Speaker 2:Well, if they had pushed back Giant double standard On that stuff, if they had pushed back on that and said absolutely, we will not acknowledge you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then I mean would you have looked at it differently?
Speaker 1:I have no idea, See that's what I'm talking about. Like I was just reading some article. I would like to say that I would be like well then, fuck you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but would you? But yeah, I said I would like I was reading some article the other day and it was this woman who married a black man and it was in the 40s. She was basically completely dead to her family. They couldn't get housing, they couldn't. I mean it was like just this horrible, horrible thing because she made this decision to fall in love with somebody who was not. It was not an accepted type of relationship.
Speaker 2:But there's an example of a woman who said you know what I love this man more and I'm gonna put up with all of these things that are happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're living the rest of your life with that person. But there we are. You hope that you are back to the marriage thing.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean well, that's a whole another topic, I know.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, obviously we're not gonna change anything, but recognizing a lot of things that have gone on and happened and thankful for a lot of things that went on and that happened, especially as a woman and the things that came from it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's been a lot of paths that have been cleared for us without us even knowing.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:And not just as women but as men as well being able to feel comfortable with their I'm gonna say, feminine side, but doing things that would be perceived as female responsibilities, for example, in a partnership or whatever they're more. But I think a lot of that comes down to people being just confident people and really having an understanding of their own truth and what they're all made of.
Speaker 2:And it takes. I think it takes time to figure those things out, but if you don't have the resources then that could be a different story. Do you know anybody that kind of went through the 70s like as a young adult that you've?
Speaker 1:talked to, Not that I've specifically talked to, but I mean my sister. Yeah, I guess you're. My sister was 15 in 1965.
Speaker 2:Oh dear, so she went right through it. Yeah, yeah, and there's this guy. He's a massage therapist, just has become a friend over the years. He's probably 10 years older than me, maybe 15 years older or so but he went through all of this kind of stuff, the music and the pushback from the parents, and he grew up in Louisiana, baton Rouge, louisiana.
Speaker 2:So it was a little bit of a different dynamic. Back there too, We've had conversations about some of these things, because he's still kind of a hippie. They say hippie, you know like that whole stereotype.
Speaker 2:He's still kind of that. He still has a little ponytail and he's still a little, but he's. That's the era he grew up in and it definitely shaped him and the kind of person that he is and but he's happily married and has been married for many years, has great kids, is a really he's a good guy. He just has a very different way of looking at things and I am very drawn to that and just like that is someone who would be my friend you know what I mean Because they're just no judgment.
Speaker 2:There's no, no, anything around it. So, I think that's what this timeframe has created for us in a lot of ways, without us even knowing about it is that we have the freedom to be able to be more us, Anyway. Well, you and your free love can go watch Parno and don't even have to use contraception.
Speaker 1:Right, cause I'm masturbating. Yeah, just kidding. Wow, yeah, on that note, oh my gosh you're gonna get.
Speaker 2:you're gonna get cut off by somebody for even using those words. For Pete's sake, on that note. Yeah, on that note.
Speaker 1:Well, just remind you all that we are on all the socials. Download the episode, cause I'm sure there's many moments you're gonna wanna go back and listen to on this one.
Speaker 2:Especially the ones from Michelle. The Hope yeah.
Speaker 1:But thanks for listening Tune in next week, cause we're gonna have something. You know it's gonna be something fun to listen to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we might have to expand on a few more of these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, for sure here, because it's like my.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking as we've been kind of preparing for this and, oh, I have so many thoughts, but I'll save them for another time.
Speaker 1:We're gonna talk about aliens next time.
Speaker 2:Oh God, here she goes again With her conspiracy theories and her aliens All right everybody till next time. All right, have a good one, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Bye, bye, bye this.