on DRUMS, with John Simeone
This is a local Long Island Podcast given by a veteran drummer on the Long Island music scene. We have a variety of local professional musicians as participants. We joke, give insights and share stories about our over 4 decades of experience in the music profession.
on DRUMS, with John Simeone
Beating to the Rhythm of the Song: Lee Finkelstein and John Simeone Drumming Deep Dive
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When Lee Finkelstein lays down a beat, it's not just rhythm—he's telling a story, painting a landscape. It's a philosophy I, John Simeone, share wholeheartedly. Our recent conversation took us on a tour through the world of drumming, where we unpacked the essence of what it means to truly play for the music. Lee, with his wealth of experience across genres, emphasizes the idea that serving the song trumps personal showmanship. We riff on the camaraderie between drummers, the joy found in simplicity, and the magnetic pull of a groove that unites a band.
The heartbeat of our episode pulses with discussions on live performance and the wisdom Lee shares gleaned from playing with legends like the Blues Brothers band and stepping in for David Garibaldi with Tower of Power. As we explore the shifting tides of the music industry, we offer nuggets of advice for up-and-coming drummers striving to stay relevant. Join us as we share stories of triumph, the humbling moments of our careers, and the lessons that resonate beyond the stage. It's a rhythmic ride that speaks to the core of every musician's spirit.
Lee has recorded, performed with and backed up Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Nancy Wilson, Grover Washington Jr, Eric Gale, The Oregon Symphony Orchestra & Randy Brecker, Isaac Hayes, Eddie Floyd, Bette Midler, Blood Sweat & Tears, Russ Freeman, Julio Iglesias, Frankie Paul, Johnny Winter, Steve Cropper, Lou Marini, Will Lee, Paul Shafer, John Tropea, Leon Pendarvis, Alan Rubin, Saturday Night Live, Dave Valentine, Cornelius Bumpus, Anthony Jackson, Mary Wilson, Daryl Hall, John Oates, Hudson River Rats, Joey Ramone, Vaneese Thomas, Mario Cruz, Jens Wendelboe, Don Blackman, Oz Noy, Buzz Feiten, Neil Jason, Deena Miller, Dave Fields, Jay Prince, Bill Heller, Cosmic Oven, Derretub Snub, Hadrian Decree, Red Flannel Hash Band, Small Talk/Jim Small Band, The Paper Bag, Timberwolf, Yasgur's Farm, Jim Pin Band 5+2-1, Eclipse, Funk Filharmonik, The Zen Tricksters, Major Domo, Chick Singer Night NYC, Jonny Rosch, Bobby Harden, Stevie Cochran, Ed Palermo Big Band, Napoleon Murphy Brock, Wycliff Gordon, Marc Ribler, Jack Daley, JT Bowen, Southside Johhny, Bowling For Leftovers, Dead On Live, Felix Cavaliere and The Rascals, Felicia Collins, David Spinozza, Vernon Reid, Corey Glover, Bill Murray, Chris Noth, Ben Vereen, Friends of the Brothers, the Royal Scam and Paul Sorvino.
Okay, we're on, we're on. This is episode 17 of On Drums. I'm John Simione. Today I have Lee Finkelstein, lee Funklstein, funk, old punk man, lee Finkelstein, and Lee Everybody I tell that you're the next guy up on the podcast. They say, oh, I want to listen to that, they want this. So they want to hear what you have to say. So what do you have to say, lee?
Speaker 2I got nothing, you got nothing. All right, that's the end. I have lots, lots to say on lots of things, and and and thanks for your persistence. I know we've been, we've been trying to do this for a while, and and thanks.
Speaker 1No, it's. I mean anybody who's a good musician is busy. That's the way it is, yeah.
Speaker 2I appreciate it.
Speaker 1Yeah, so, um, you want to have a kind of a strange relationship with both drummers and I. This is what I say every podcast. I don't really hang out with drummers, you know right, but but the thing is and I've talked to other instrumentalists and they're like.
Speaker 2Drummers are like, they're always like brothers.
Speaker 1I know it's weird guitarist, sax players that you know a lot of other instrumentalists they don't really like do munches and you know, you know it's you know what's funny about it is like all the drummers like that I care to hang out with and no, not I don't mean not you, because you and I just did different kind of different circuit but we all the drums that I'm like, friends with, that hang out with.
Speaker 2we don't talk about drums at all, we just you know, it's the guys who want to talk about the stick sizes and symbol sizes.
Speaker 1I want to. I want to cut their throats Right I don't want to cut that.
Speaker 2You know it's. It's good to know, it's interesting when you see something new or you check it out, but it's like there's a lot. You know we spend enough time doing that and talking about that, right, right, so so so the reason the reason for all this is like you, having you especially like your.
Speaker 1You know, you strike me as one of those guys who is there to play the gig. Whatever the gig is like, you play to the gig. You know, and that's kind of been my gripe. You know we could, you know we could gripe all day. Yeah, I know, I know, and I'm trying, I'm going to try and not to Playing the gig.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, that's you hope to get called for like quote, unquote your thing, yeah, times, and not. It's like, hey, can you? You know I heard you do this or you know, can you make it like kind of like this guy or that kind of thing, and to be able to like put that hat on. You know, most of the time that's that'll keep you busy, I'll keep you working Right? I've been able to do that because I never said, okay, I'm going to be a jazz guy or a rock guy or a funk guy or this. I always kind of deal and going back on that, I remember guys tell me no, you got to pick one and go for that. And some guys, you know, do that and that and that's what they do and they're the, you know, like the jazz guys. You know that's a swing, you know you got to live that swing Right. Takes me to the end of the gig gig. When I'm on a jazz game. It's like I think I'm doing it Because you know you don't do it all the time.
Speaker 1Right, you know, yeah, no, those those jazz guys are a little, they're a little left of everything.
Speaker 1So but, I mean, what I'm when I'm trying to get at is I don't know. I see again, I don't want to get, I don't want to get personal, but me, me personally, like things that bother me and that that I like about drummers in particular is the way they play the music and the way it's always about how I feel Right. So it's like, yeah, everybody's like feels things different ways, but it's like when the music feels right. That's when it to me is like real music and there's and there seems to be like an army of guys who like. But that's second. I mean, am I wrong?
Speaker 2No, it's like something, something weird thing.
Speaker 1First, and grooving with the band is always second. Well, you know.
Speaker 2I've always had this thing there's, there are, there are drummers and there are drumists, yeah, and the drummers of the guys that you go and death, death of the music, and they're there, they're not for themselves and they're playing the parts and they're playing the music. And the drumists of the guys that all, as drummers, go to see and go, holy crap, do you see what he did with his left foot at the same time. And I mean, who doesn't love that stuff? Right, yeah, I mean, you know you always say, like, you know, are you going to get the? You're going to get a? You're going to call you to do that on the gig? I don't think so. That's that's. You know what I mean and that's the. It's to know what works in the gig. You know, when it's like, okay, blow a little over these changes, Now you can do all your. You know your hijinks and your and your, your magic tricks.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2You know you got to play for the music and you got to. You got to make the guys around you feel comfy.
Speaker 1That's what that's. That's what you do, right, that's what you?
Speaker 2yeah, I know that's that's my job, you know. When someone comes up to me at the end of the gig, it says, man, you make it so easy to play and it's like I say thank you, I did my job. You know what I mean and also, like you know, at this stage of the game it should be easy, it should be difficult for anyone. You know.
Speaker 1Right, so you're talking about guys in the band who come up as a hey man. That felt great.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, that for me too. I mean, when somebody says something, that's the ultimate compliment.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean I feel like the ultimate non compliment to me is like you know, I love the way you played fast on that last you know you do those double folks like that, but there's there's a time some people get off on that. I mean you do, you know, you just go on YouTube now and you see these, these kids. I mean it's just it hurts it, like hurts watching, like hurts my hands, you know.
Speaker 1I noticed. I noticed also the younger. I see a lot of kids and I'm like a kid, I don't know kids, you know like 30 years old, to me as a kid. But I see a lot of young drummers now, like with the stick flipping stuff and bouncing the sticks off the drums and that's a thing now.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, I mean, that was always part of if you go back to like Papa Joe Jones and like the original, you know, drumming was, it was part of it. A big part of it was putting on the show. Yeah, I mean, you're there, you were there with a band, you know a big band in the early days to entertain. So part of that was doing the show you ever see, you know Joe Jones dance, papa Joe or.
Speaker 1No, I know, I know what you're talking about, but but I'm talking about like some 30 year old playing at a club in Huntington. Yeah, that's a little different.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, no, okay, no yeah. That's quite different, but that's you know it's about. It's about them more than us, right? Right and guys like that, like on every instrument. Sometimes you just want to turn to the guy and go dude, you already got the gig.
Speaker 1Yeah, I know, I know, oh man, and that really gets to me because I was just. I had this conversation with Billy yesterday, like I take, I take it personally. You know, like with music is people who don't, who aren't born to be musicians, don't really get it sometimes that it's in you and like when somebody's torturing the song, it's like they're hurting your child. You know what I mean, well Intended or not.
Speaker 2It's, it's you know. You tell your stories. We all have the, all the stories. They're just like really, but you know everyone. You know they're trying and it's like I know and you know, and, and back years ago I would like you know kind of the hair would go from my back. Now it's like you know what. Look at your watch and.
Speaker 1Ain't it, yep 90 minutes.
Speaker 2We out of here. I want to deal with this. Yeah, it's over.
Speaker 1Ron Fox told me that. Ron Fox Fox told me the the music club date musicians. Salute is where you hold your watch up and oh yeah. That's the club they.
Speaker 2Club date salute Right, what time is it over, and that's you know, and that's it's not a nice way of looking at it because, like oh, you know, get me out of here.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, that's what they are, you know.
Speaker 2I mean club dates were very, very good to me. I mean I'm doing it forever and, and you know, playing with great players.
Speaker 1Right, Well, you play. You're playing. In the different years your club day situation is different than most.
Speaker 2Yes, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1Yeah, no, I mean, those guys are all great.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, dave, and like, isn't it mostly Dave?
Speaker 2Dave Anderson. You mean Anderson, like with Jay? Yeah, I mean with Jay, it's been. You know, when I first met Jay Prince 30 plus years ago, joel was kind of just yeah, I think Joel just got the golf and spy road Right and Jay Prince and and I heard a wecle was in the band and and Jay's been, yeah, Grant Borthorn and Alan Childs and like, and a bunch of like great guys from New York.
Speaker 2And I was like, wow, you know this guy's, you know he's using good drummers. And it was actually Gail Cruz. Oh, Gail was in the band. Gail was in the band at the time and she said, hey, you've got to meet this guy, Jay Prince, you know, and I did a gig and that was it. It was like love at first sight with Jay and I.
Speaker 1And so I'm saying that's not well, at least for Long Island. That's not a common thing with his old players. You know it's usually two or three guys fighting for their life somewhere in there, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah Long. You know, not even Long Island, just all the club days generally, all the place in general. Yeah, I just sound like you know, not all, not all, but many were like you know, the band leader had a business thing happen in great and he wasn't the greatest musician or the greatest singers and he tried surround himself with great players. Of course, you know I'm trying work and you know, and many of them treated the guys the way they should be treated, right, but many of them, we know, you know, we know.
Speaker 1I Actually went to a party at Joel's house about. I was about I'm with Billy Hiller Um about five years ago, when I said I just met Jay at Joel's. I said to Jay and I just met him, I said to him listen so you know, if we stick, pinklestein ever dies.
Speaker 2You know it's actually. I'm really not doing Jay's gig.
Speaker 1I know I heard that yeah.
Speaker 2Because he ever spoke about that, because, you know, we moved a little bit further south, he moved a little bit further north. The majority of those gigs were like up the Westchester and Connecticut. The business is not, of course, what it used to be. It's yeah it's logistically. You know it was difficult to do that. And and now it's Tiger McNeil tiger right.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know, I've seen wonderful drummer up in Connecticut.
Speaker 2He's doing that. You know, he's doing the brunt of the gigs Jay still calls me for like smaller stuff, a little stuff, or you know. And I just saw him actually, I just actually did a gig with him. Yeah, sunday it was a, you know, first club day in a long time was yeah, yeah, it's like like a reunion.
Speaker 1It's also a shock to the system, yeah, so, um, give me a little bit of your. I know you played in million bands, man. So, what's what? How did you start with all this stuff? With music, just I mean yeah, I guess you started as drummer. You were drummer from the get-go.
Speaker 2I've always. You know, this was you know, if you want the the history, at four or five years old. Well, I have to go back. My dad, as A child in East New York, made his own drum set out of inner yeah, out of tin cans and inner tubes, and and would go up on the roof in East New York and run home from school and play his drums. And he was. He was a drummer, oh he was a drummer.
Music Journey
Speaker 2Yeah, well at heart. As soon as he was old enough to go work in my grandpa's Sweatshop in the garment district, that was it for the drums, yeah, yeah, but he, it was a musical lover, used to go see all the big bands and and and and love music, so that so drumming was kind of like in him. My parents were were great dancers. They always played music around the house and around four or five years old, um, you know, I was the typical kid with the wooden spoons banging on stuff. And I get my father like heard something?
Speaker 2Uh, the guy that lived across the hall from us, bernie Spiegel, he was a garment district guy, beagle, yeah, he, uh, he was a weekend warrior. He was doing all kinds of club dates and ethnic gigs. So my father said, bernie, you know, come over. You know, can. This is lia, is that, you know? Is this real what he's doing? Does he have anything right? Right, and bernie showed me like rudiments at like five years old, and every every now and then he come over and he'd show me like another rudiment and that, you know, it's like strictly on a, on a pad, mm-hmm, uh, yeah, we don't have drums either. I had a pad, yeah, yeah, and we moved to long island um fourth grade Comes and they said, hey, you want to um, you want to play an instrument? I said, yeah, drums. And they said what's your second preference? All right, the trumpet and the paperwork came back and they said well, 47 guys wanted to play drums. So we gave you trumpet, like home, and I was like mom Mom, you need to call the school, um.
Speaker 1And you know that that I just keep that thought for a second. But I taught that and and that is that has never changed, it's always been. If you tell, if you hear the forms of the kids, you'll have 60 sax players and 50 drummers and that's your band.
Speaker 2Right, it's impossible.
Speaker 1That's why they make drummers way to you.
Speaker 2Right, exactly, exactly. So she called to look. You know that son had been Stud, you know, taking some lessons, he has some experience. You know, please, and uh, that was uh, mr Eisenhower and mrE, and plain school in hicksville, hicksville, yeah, billy jull had the you know all the same music teachers, right, right, yeah, you know, he lived around the corner. Actually, literally he lived diagonally Behind my best friend.
Speaker 1But we have because they're like contemporaries, right, you're like it's sort of around the same. I mean it's been the same at the same time, the same year.
Speaker 2No, he's that, he's. He's quite a bit old, you know, he's uh, I don't know, he's uh, I don't even know how old this is, I don't know. Does he have you know? Is he 74? Maybe is he that old, 72? Oh, I don't even. I don't even know 72. Yeah, so you know, and I'm 67, so it's close you know, yeah, I mean he was.
Speaker 2We used to hang out at the village green, that's really how, like the song said, um, so, yeah. So fourth grade, uh started with drums and then I was in the, was in the band, I was in the orchestra, I was in the chorus, and then uh, and then stayed with the music department, um, throughout, and then, you know, 10th, yeah, I got a snare drum at nine years old, which I still I'm looking at it.
Speaker 1I had this exact conversation. Yes, I do a billy he's he's snare drum too. It's weird.
Speaker 2I'm looking at it right here. Um, it's a, it's a, my white marine pearl, wfl, wfl. Oh, you know, before lugwood, you know it's lugwood.
Speaker 1Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2Um, yeah, my dad got that from bernie spiegel. Of course I'm. I'm estimated it's like a 54 of 58, 1958, so it's really nice and I thought I had like this rare collectible Right. The internet popped up.
Speaker 1I was like there's a million of these things.
Speaker 2Which is not, you know, it's nice. Um, yeah, then junior high, you know I'm playing in the band and then, uh, you know, and then you meet some players and I started playing some live gigs. Um, do junior high, high school, Um, you?
Speaker 1started playing gigs in junior high.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, I mean just like. Weaving it like little local, little local church. You know the local church. It was like you know, it wasn't like you know. I don't think we're getting paid, or maybe we get right.
Speaker 1Sort of like now, right, right, yeah, the pay is I.
Speaker 2I mean, it's about yeah, the pay is still the same, yeah.
Speaker 1The pay's less now.
Speaker 2Oh god, don't even um yeah. So then, um, yeah, and then, as a senior in high school, there was an ad in the penny saver. Uh, this working band was looking for a drummer and my dad said give them a call. You know the penny saver, you're dating people on that one. The penny gave them a call and these guys you know I'm a senior in high school they were like, they were like 21, they were like all the ready. You know, yeah, yeah and uh, I went and auditioned and they were like you sound great, you want the gig? I was like sure, so I started playing. I'm playing three, five nights a week, sometimes through high school. Which is you know you really? That's you really learn right now.
Speaker 1Actually, that's what I did. I was playing through high school and that's how I kind of so, which was a great learning tool.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'll say that about club dates.
Speaker 1You have to. You have to be kind of versatile as a musician on club dates.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, the club dates didn't didn't come to lay, I didn't. I didn't get into the club dates as early as most guys, early as most guys.
Speaker 1So what were the gigs in high school? They were just like club gigs or what was club gig you know um.
Speaker 2The drinking age was 18, right, I remember that and it was like like Tabernel house and Mcsore, not Mcsore Mcdimples and Roslyn and and all these, uh bo brummels, miniola they were.
Speaker 1they were like they were bars and clubs everywhere Right, um, what was the place in in Huntington? You guys played, I got, I saw a picture.
Speaker 2Oh, that was that's like 1980, that's, that was Canterbury.
Speaker 1Canterbury, that's the place, yeah, which the Ebbler is in that.
Speaker 2in that picture that was just. That was a magic time. That was in the Ebbels. So through high school and then playing more gigs. In fact, you know the the uh, and that was a band called Adrian decree. Like anyone from the Hicksville area from that era, they knew Hadrian to create because it was a really good band. But here I was, the guys took my license and they changed the date on it With a pencil eraser so I could play in the clubs because I was 17, 17.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So that was great. Then from there, um, I actually moved upstate New York and I played with the red flannel hash man and that was. It was like a country rock A lot of grateful dead music, Almond brothers and riders and Dan Hicks and you know more in the country rock side and that was up in Sullivan County playing with those guys. Came back to Long Island, we kind of reformed and so you moved upstate and moved back.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, cause you know it was like a college age, right, college, you know, two, four years, whatever it was. We all moved back to Long Island. We kind of reformed the band with a couple of different guys Well, the original red flannel hash were all guys from Hicksville, west Bird do each other up in Sullivan County and that was. That was a lot of fun because we were like it was. You know, it was college towns in 1975 to like 78. And we worked from Bigamton to New Pulse and all those college towns. It was great. And then down to Long Island where we reformed with the Cummings brothers and Rich Ebbler.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, red Flannel hash. We used to play my father's place regularly. I don't know.
Speaker 1I'm not familiar with any of these names, but yeah yeah I'm, because I'm not from.
Speaker 2Nassau Right. Well, those guys that ended up becoming that Monday night band at Canterbury, which was Jim Pinn, Jim Pinn.
Speaker 1Jim Pinn. Yeah, I know that.
Speaker 2So that was. You know, rob Barakko was playing keys and he went out to play. He's playing with Stillwesh next week. He's playing with the dad and you know the music he loved. He got to do that with with the guys with the great little debt Right, the other guys. Ebbler stopped playing. He moved out to Texas. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1I mean when he moved.
Speaker 2I got a great, great job out there. You know family, so he's out there, but he's still my, still my brother. So, so what's up?
Speaker 1So now you're what year's?
Speaker 2now you're like with the in your twenties and yeah, so it's like 1980, canterbury, else we start playing, and it was a Monday night, so you know, not many musicians had gigs on Monday night and it turned into like this scene and on the musical side of it, we were playing a lot of Steely Dan and there weren't a lot of bands out there covering Steely Dan, and then we were doing like our kind of jazz fusion originals and a lot of music that was actually written by the eldest Cummings brother. The late Jimmy Cummings just created this scene and it became this thing. And that's where we met the Alex Stewart we were doing Alex Stewart with, with Rob Prospect. Oh, that's where we met Ozzie Melendez and Vinny Chikbomani, like the Rick Mango office, and it was like, hey, you know, we always wanted to, you know, start like a horn band, a tower band, that kind of thing, right, and yeah, evelyn and I and Alex, my brother, my Cummings actually, yeah, well, that's some, you know, let's just get some rehearsals together.
Speaker 1So who wait who? So who was the kind of the founder of that band? Was it Alex?
Speaker 2Yeah, kind of Alex. You know, the four of us, alex, ozzie, ebbler and myself Okay, ebbler was a huge rock of it. You know I had dabbled with like the Garibaldi stuff and the tower power stuff but I wasn't, I wasn't like a, you know, I wasn't like the folk guy, yeah, but I listened to a lot. And Ozzie said, well, I'm writing out charts and let's, so we set a rehearsal date. We would rehearse Tuesday afternoons at Dave Noy's studio in Huntington. Everyone would chip in like $2. We get the rehearse and we just, and Ozzie would write these charts and before you know it we had a book and it was like a band. You know, when Ebbler couldn't make a rehearsal, the late great Joe Silva would come in.
Speaker 1Oh, joe, joe subbed in that band.
Speaker 2Yeah, and well, I don't know if he, I don't know if he ever did a gig, he just he subbed the rehearsals To a rehearsal. Yeah, joe would just walk in and you know, Joe was, you know, an incredible musician. That was a freak that way. Yeah, no, he really was. It was just like it was like he knew the stuff better than us. Yeah, that was great, joe. So, yeah, started out as a rehearsal and at that time the brokerage in Belmore on Thursday nights he was doing like original jazz fusion nights and I think my brother, stephen, went over to Gary there and he said hey, you know, this is a band we've been rehearsing, told them who's in it, Can we book a gig? And we booked a gig and it was lines around the block and the first, the first before you were even known before you.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean you know there's 12 guys in the band, 12 friends, and plus you know that we we had, we had been sampling it on Monday nights. Like maybe three of the horn players would show up on a Monday when we were playing and we would do like what is here, but we do a couple of tower tunes, or they would add the horns on there, purely dance stuff.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2It kind of became this. You know, it was like, oh yeah, I was getting a little taste of that. It's like, hey, I'm starting this new thing, and it was when we first started. It was called punk Philharmonia.
Speaker 1I didn't know that.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah Well and again, though, the the late great Tim Lawless was was our singer.
Speaker 1Right, Well, when, when? I see now I thought when Tim was in it it was the drunk Philharmonic. Well, what it's on me, it was the drunk.
Speaker 2I don't even want to go there. Of stories I mean there were nights Well, just the one great story. I don't know if Greg Schleich he tells the story the best, because he was probably the only one that was on the best and it wasn't.
Speaker 1Yeah, Greg's very good at that.
Speaker 2And um, uh, yeah, we had. You know, we had, uh, drank way too much and it was like it was embarrassing, we shouldn't have been on stage, we really couldn't play, and we kind of we used to play two sets and we kind of finished the second set and realized, like you know, this is no good. Sorry, folks, we're going to say good night.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And, uh, some guy comes up to Patty Ambrosio guitar player pieces. I paid seven bucks to get in here tonight. You got that, so all you guys are going to play. And Pat was like sorry, that's, that's the show for tonight. Seven bucks, yeah, yeah, we used to. The first set usually was really killing. Yeah, we'd take like an hour break.
Speaker 1Right, I remember I've been down. I was down to a few of those gigs.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah and I mean but those, those were, those were magical nights too, Especially when we played there.
Speaker 1That was 15 years Did you play every Monday for a long time.
Speaker 2Oh, monday's. Well, the Monday night was, um, was Canterbury else? Okay, I'm sorry. Um, what was that? Yeah, that went on eight, nine years because, after, after the original guys left, I left, ebbler left. Uh, ebbler was replaced by Chris Weigers Chris is great. Rob Barakko was replaced by Bill Heller. I was replaced by Matt Miller, mm. Hmm, that's great. They can, and they continued they could. Teddy Kumpel was doing gigs with the band at that time. Um, and they continued on on Monday nights for a bunch of years and it was still.
Speaker 1It was still a great scene and that's let me ask you this, that, because that, that, uh, that's sort of my point here. Those, the band, all those guys are players and they attracted all these people to come here. The band Right, Um, what's it? What's it like now? It's the same, it's a crowd.
Speaker 2Uh, as far as like who comes to see the, I mean I mean you get.
Speaker 1I mean you said lines around the block because everybody you know it's not color.
Speaker 2I think now it's um. We do one, three gigs a year max, because everybody's is that because people spread out and from the band? To a lot of reasons. Yeah, a lot of guys are doing lots of busy, doing lots of things. Um, you know, as you know, ozzie, some of the guys have day jobs and it just scheduling became, uh, really difficult.
Speaker 1What, um, what about? How do you, how do you feel about the club owners? I mean then versus now. I mean I feel like the club owners back then appreciated the musicians and the level of musicianship, whereas now it's like if you, if you're an accountant, you can get a gig on the weekends. If you have a guitar, you know it doesn't matter as long as people come down.
Music Industry Realities and Public Perception
Speaker 2Well, that's a. That's a whole world. You know, thankfully I don't really deal with the club owners anymore because we're only. We play like two gigs a year and I just I called Kevin up at the warehouse and when I met Kevin, I told him he needs to open a school for club owners. Oh, he's a good guy.
Speaker 1This is how it's done.
Speaker 2He's a bench and he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's he's, he's, he's, he's, he's so supportive of live music and he takes care of business and it's like you're fallen and you press go, you press play, and it's that and that's what I think is see, oh look, because I stopped doing clubs.
Speaker 1It's like 10 years ago and now I'm doing clubs.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I feel like it's almost like who plays and what they play is almost secondary. It's how many people come down. So if you play, you know tuba with your ass and people come to see that that's what they'll hire.
Speaker 2Well, it's always how many asses you're going to put in the seats. Yeah, I know, I, I, I know, but I feel, I feel like back then was it?
Speaker 1there was a little more appreciation for actual musicians, you know, or is that?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so, but I think there was also. There were more clubs, there were more, there were more bands, there were more musicians. And then what happened? Like you were talking about the accountant on the weekends, you know the, the, the midlife crisis guys. Well, you know, I mean guys, you know our age, older it's like hey, you know, I did my day gig, now I want to play some music, and that's that's not in it professionally. They're not. They don't like, pay a band and make sure they're making money Exactly, well, it doesn't, so it doesn't matter. They're packing the club because they're playing the same eagle song that that other thing.
Speaker 1That's my right. I mean, this is my big quite that. What other? What other other occupation I don't want? What did you say? A profession is there where someone else can do that? On the weekends? I go to school for it or practice or do anything else and still make money the same money you would make as someone who studied for forever. You know, and like look, if you're an accountant, you don't practice accounting at night. Well, musicians, it's never over, right, you just constantly have to practice, right, right.
Speaker 1And and these guys give me the the by guitar, then it doesn't matter. It's like you know, it's. I mean, I can't tell you how many times.
Speaker 2Also because people that come to see you you think maybe they're discerning or maybe the public knows, but a lot of times I mean, how many times will you want a club date? I can say this you know where I took a date with some band that I didn't know and you walk in and it's like embarrassingly bad. Yes, like you know, maybe there's one guy on the on the band that can play and the rest of the guy you know the rest of the band and you just you pray that no one you know walks in the room and goes oh God, what are you? You know, what are you? What are you doing here? I mean, I I have been on gigs on the same note where like 10 guests come up and they say this is the best band I've ever heard and you're just like, wow, do you get out much or are you? You just you really can't, and you know that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1That's what I'm saying I.
Speaker 2I, I. I attribute this to Bella Bartop, but I looked it up, it's a great quote and, and I thought that I'd read somewhere that Bella Bartop said it, but then I looked it up. Now I can't find who said it, but the quote is the public RA moron Yep, yep and it's. You know, I'm not putting people down, but it's. But you know, do you know, terry?
Speaker 1Negrelli yes of course. Terry Negrelli did this back in his. His big line was this there's a fine line between being discovered and found out.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, that's exactly the same thing. It's like you know, if, if, uh, if you go out and you, you know you hear a band and they're playing your favorite song. It may not be the exact correct chord, voicings or the or the you know, or the singing is, but but it's like that's all, that's my. I love that song and they love, and it doesn't matter. Like that you got, like you know it's amazing musician up there playing it or you're playing it and you know, I was going to say I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened. You, if you're out with your wife or whatever, not on a gig, and somebody else is playing and you're with it.
Musical Gigs and Drumming Tales
Speaker 1This has happened to me multiple times, where I'm out and there's another band playing and everybody knows I'm a musician None of them are, and they'll constantly look up and go how do you think of these guys? Aren't they great? You know like. And what do you say when somebody says, aren't they great? You go. Well, I'm not a great musician, I'm not a great musician you know like and what do you say when somebody says aren't they great? You go oh yeah, they're great.
Speaker 2It's like, it's not great. I find the nice, constructive way of saying they suck. No, you know, you know you try and be nice and you say well, you know, I don't know I see, I'm constantly saying like if you don't have anything nice to say, you know standing, but then you stand there like an idiot.
Speaker 1So I mean, whatever I just that's why we don't go out and get music. You know, I have to say I was in Florida last week. There's a place in Orlando called Disney Springs. You ever hear Disney Springs?
Speaker 2No.
Speaker 1Okay. So it's a it's. I don't know what it is. It's like a part of Disney that's like shopping. I don't know what it's, but they had it's so big they had four discreet stages with musicians and I you know, I am a musician, so I immediately know who sucks and who doesn't.
Speaker 2I think and I have to say all of them.
Speaker 1this was a Wednesday night in Orlando. All of them were like really good, really worth listening to. Well, when I was like, wow, Orlando's got a scene, who knew that?
Speaker 2You know, Disney is that's. That's a different thing, cause that you know that's a. That's a great gig, Disney. It's almost, I guess.
Speaker 1Yeah, right, so maybe it pays well.
Speaker 2It was like being in the military but but it's a great gig and they auditioned people and you have to be to be a musician in Bob with Disney. You have to be a professional musician.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I mean, and it really was good. It was good stuff, yeah, you know, and it wasn't even like stuff that I liked. One one group was, uh, so it'll work like a rockabilly thing, but they will. They will tell me.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah Well they, they hire musicians.
Speaker 1Yeah, so I mean.
Speaker 2You always did Cause, that's a that's, that's a great gig.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I guess it must be because of the pain or something, if you want to.
Speaker 2You want to live down there. You have no pain, remove and get divorced and see God as besides, if you gotta do the projected, it's disney pretty, um pretty good company, I guess.
Speaker 1So what um I? I, what do you get? You got any uh like stories, or I mean, I have, I have tons.
Speaker 2A million stories Like I mean. You know, I, I mean let me.
Speaker 1Let me ask you this have you ever experienced this? Cause? This happens to me constantly. Maybe it's me, um, on a gig, and usually I'm subbing, or I'm on a band. I'm not used to it, whatever. Ultimately, I have somebody like you know, I'm listening, so what's going on? And then I hear discrepancies, whatever. I don't see anything playing, and you know there'll be mistakes in their band. I'm not, I'm a sub or whatever I am, and, uh, it's, things happen and whatever.
Speaker 1So song ends and then on the break I'll have usually a singer, what got to me and say, um, you know, can we do that song a little slower next time? You know, and and like I'm like that's not going to fit. I mean, I'm going, it's not going to fix the chords, but you know we could do it slower. Well, and I ultimately like say, okay, yeah, we could do it slow. How about you count it off? So I'll just play the tempo. No, no, no, I want you to count it off, but I want you to do it a little slower. So when I, when I play with you guys in six months, I want you to remember tonight.
Speaker 1Do a little slower than that. Take it to consideration I may have had some soda and it might be hyped up and the band leader maybe fought with his wife, all of that, and then you count it off a little slower than tonight. Okay, like they always lay it on the drummer, like it's always a tell you know, because that's you know, it's just like the, the common denominator.
Speaker 2You're supposed to be the timekeeper. You know? Um, we're certain, yeah, and, and every band does it differently. You know, generally on club dates, everyone does everything way too fast.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And you, just you know, and back in the day I'd be like, I'd be like no, no, no, that's not the tempo I know and you can't. You know you learn real quick. You can't, you can't, unless you bring a mention.
Speaker 1I mean, I've had guys, club date leaders, club date leaders turn around to me and say, after a tune, that was that, that was a. Remember that tempo. What do you remember that tempo? Right, remember that tempo.
Speaker 2It's one 22.
Speaker 2Okay, I got it, you know, well, you know that you know that there's a joke like that, that the drummer's on the bandstand and the, the band leader, turns around and he's waving his arms at him, you know, and the that you already plays louder. He's like no, no, no, no, no, Little, while lady was Little, while lady waves his arms at him, again the drummer's playing more. He's playing lots of notes. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It turns around, waves his arm again he's playing softer. So finally they take a break. He says to the family you wave your arm. Once I played louder, I played soft. He said what do you want the family to say? Play better.
Speaker 1I think I work with that band Right. I'm telling you, I've heard the, I've heard the most.
Speaker 2I mean it's a whole other animal. You know, outside the real world we really we don't do other gigs. Um, it's, you know, it's so different. Generally it's like yeah, okay, you're the drummer. Um, do your homework, get your metronome settings.
Speaker 1You're counting these songs, right, right Um you know, I always feel like the drummer's so funny story.
Tempo and Drumming Careers in Music
Speaker 2Um, when I first, when I got the call to play with the blues brothers band, I was very nervous because I'm playing with like all my heroes, right, and uh and um. So they sent me live CDs CDs of live shows. This is going back 20 years. So a lot of them were like that was 20 years ago. Yeah, look, we're not gig 20 years. Wow, that's crazy. Um so um, the CDs were like from cassettes and I'm in the car driving to the gig with the great John Troll pay and Rob Paprosi, the frontman, and they hadn't done a gig in a while. And they said, hey, well, that's so. What key do we do that in? Do you remember? It's like, oh, I had the CD right. And John pops the CD in the car and they're like what the hell key is this? And it was like you know, I don't know it was so fast, oh, but meanwhile all my tempo markings were like, like, oh, because it was from cassette.
Speaker 2Yeah, all my markings. Well, I'm kind of like six, eight, 10 clicks faster, right Then, you know, then the actual temple there was. It was like thank God, that conversation came up, right, just I, you know, I, when I counted the songs off, I made all the tempo markings, you know, appropriately, you know downgraded them a little bit because it was like it was crazy yeah.
Speaker 1Tempo was a thing, man, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2That's your, that's you know, as a drummer, that's your job.
Speaker 1I know but, here's the thing we I've been in bands where we, where we consistently use some tracks, like maybe four tracks sequenced on the gig, and whenever we would play the first track, I would, you know, have headphones. I remember that was how I gauged myself. So if that track felt right, then I think I knew where everything else should be. But if I sometimes it felt slow or fast because I was feeling it different that day, I would have to gauge myself. So I think everybody does that. You know, eight guys in a band, everybody's feeling stuff different every night With the moon. Is that day? Yeah, you can't?
Speaker 2really, but still the bed. You woke up. No, no, no, like you said, the band leader had an argument with his wife that morning.
Speaker 1Right, it's always comes down to I've been on gigs where I've been on gigs, where I've been on gigs, where, where, where things fell apart, and then it's like, well, you know, yeah what can we do? Well, we could play a little slower next. No, it's not slower, it's always not going to help you. You know, I, I don't know, and it's happened so many times to me, man, I'm, you know, at the end of my rope.
Speaker 2And it's, and it's such a, it's such a personal thing, you know, because it's about the tempo, that's yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1So let me ask you this Um, what, um, so, what? What's your? What is your main? Stay right now.
Speaker 2Well, um, I'm doing a bunch of things down here, uh, local bands and some, some touring.
Speaker 1But where is?
Speaker 2that exactly You're in Jersey. You said, right, yeah, I'm down in Lakewood, new Jersey, okay, closer to the shore, um, which is nice and there is a is a scene down here, like in the Asbury area, that people go out every night to hear live music. It's just, they love live music Really. So it's, if I want it to, I could work every night. You know it's clubs, but it's like people come to listen and it's and the majority of it is is quality music. Um, so, and that's been fun because it's like um what type of stuff?
Speaker 2Like, like you know, funky jams and great dead, and then I play with them, uh, a group called the Harmony Project and it's like all, of course, we stills Nash and Beals and Beach Boys and a lot. You know um focusing on vocals. Yeah, these guys sing like birds. It's wonderful and it's like the soundtrack of our childhood, like all those great tunes and, and you know, playing, playing those drum parts again, revisiting it that's, you know, it's so much fun. You know you drive home from those gigs like with a smile. You know you don't have 500 bucks in your pocket, but it's not, it's not about that, yeah, it's more about, actually, you know um back to playing music, like the whole reason I started doing it in the first place, which is much more rewarding. Um, you know, I've been for well 20 years. Like I said, 20 years I've been touring with the original Blues Brothers band, which um has been and how, how?
Speaker 1how often does that go out?
Speaker 2Well, it's, it's. It's mostly a summer thing, but it's, it's. It's less and less every year Because, um, none of us are getting any younger in the business and the demand for that band as well. But, um, when we do go, it's just like you know, I've gotten to see the world. Yeah, oh, playing that music, which most of it is overseas, and so they fly out.
Speaker 2Yeah, they, you know everything is. You know rent drum rental, you know that's great. Sticks is roadies, it's like a. You know it's a, it's a, it's a great gig. And it's with some of my heroes that I grew up listening to. I mean it's. You know Steve proper doesn't. He doesn't do it anymore. Oh, you see, just turned 83. So you know it comes at a time, but I've been doing it with him. Lumorini, you know it's just worse of nature. He's unbelievable. He's like zealot he's.
Speaker 2He was just in Italy last week and then I see he's doing a session yesterday right, you know, and he's known you know no youngster, they're like ten years older, um, so that has been and having that gig has led to bunch of session work and and other gigs, just because you have that. You know, the same thing happened back it's it's. Next month is 20 years when I got the call to to a to sub for David Garibaldi With towel power.
Speaker 1I didn't know you did that. Oh, I meant to hear you did that.
From High School to College Drumming
Speaker 2Right, right and that was like great man, it's like that. You know, a bucket list, a dream gig, right, right he. I got to do it for two weeks on the East Coast. Yeah it was perfect and it was great. And you know, after doing that gig building in those shoes, all the sudden you know that the endorsements came easier and I was, you know, uh, hot little higher up on the ladder, so speak. So that was, that was nice but it's you know 20 years ago, right right.
Speaker 1But still it's on your resume.
Speaker 2I mean, it happens, oh yeah you know it's, it's still, you know it's an amazing, I mean how many people?
Speaker 1how many people can say they sub for Garibaldi, right? I mean, no, not a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a big deal. I think that's a big deal, you know. Oh, yeah, I mean it's funny that I Think non-musicians I know a couple of non-musicians who don't understand what we go through. You know, it's like some kind of weird illness that we have that's inside. You can't get rid of it, right? I mean it's like you're born for it. Either you're born for it or you're not. That's what I feel, you know. I mean I Need to say I went to school with some guys. Well, we got cool University Bridgeport, Joel and Dave with Joe. That's right down the hole for me.
Speaker 2So I thought, I thought Was there too, and Mitch Cool, and they were. They were in Jake Right.
Speaker 1You know. So I go into audition for the, for the band, and there's Dave, there's Joel, so all those guys there, I didn't go.
Speaker 1When I first got there in September I looked in the window and I turned around and went back to my dorm room, was like there's no way. I mean it's like I thought this was like how real musicians were and I was just shitty. You know what I mean, cause I'd never seen this before. And then in the middle of the year I re-auditioned and then it became. Then we took three drummers, so there was an A band and a B band. Neal Slater was the director, dave was in the A band, joel I forget how it worked out, but Joel and Dave were in the A band. Then something happened second semester and then in this B band was me and Joel, so three guys I had a million guys were playing in these two bands and that's where I learned everything. It turns out that was just a weird time, like all these great guys were there in Bridgeport.
Speaker 2Bridgeport, connecticut. It was like it was all hard, you know.
Speaker 1And that's where I learned everything. I just thought I came from a bad part of town or something where they didn't have good musicians, I would like being the best drummer in high school to the worst drummer in college. In a week you went up to high school. You were something I went to Isle High School.
Speaker 2Oh Isle.
Speaker 1High School. Yeah, I was like a 12th grade. I was big shot. Yeah, you know, you know big band, whatever. And then you get to Bridgeport and I'm like you were the shitiest drummer from Miles, you know, and my roommate had it even hard at the time.
Speaker 2Look who you you know Dave and Joel. Yeah, but I didn't, dave wasn't.
Speaker 1Dave. Then Dave was just like you know, this guy's just eating my refrigerator you know, I mean so he don't know what you're in. You know, and I had great teachers. Ed Soap was there, john Riley was the teacher there.
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, these guys are just phenomenal you know, yeah, see, I didn't go to music school until like five years out of high school I moved upstate. I went back to Long Island. Rob Baracco the keyboard player, he started taking classes at SUNY Old Westbury, yeah, and he called me up and he goes. Whatever you do, he said you just have to come here and take some music classes. There was a music department that was like no other. It was really, really interesting. So I went there and took some, just took just part time.
Speaker 1It's funny. That was like life changing for me, because I didn't even know who Steve Gad was till I went to I didn't in 12th grade, I don't know I was listening to like ELO or something I don't even remember, I swear, or Harry Chapin, I don't know. You know what I mean. I just my friends and I didn't do that. You know, I go to college and like Steve Gad, like all these guys were practicing this stuff that I had never heard of before. So it was, it was.
Speaker 2Chris, Like the diffusion area. You didn't jump on that. Well, how old are you?
Speaker 1How old am I now? Yeah, I'm 62.
Speaker 2So I graduated 79. It's only a couple of years, you know.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was in 79, I was at UB in 79.
Speaker 2But you know and it was like a whole, like you know Billy Cobb and Lenny White and all that. You know. I was sheltered, I guess Mid 70, early 70.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was sheltered, I didn't, I just, you know, and I learned literally every single thing. I learned about anything was at college, but incidentally, I mean, I didn't, you know just that they happen to all be there, who knows why. University of Bridgeport's a slum, you know Right, my friends get mugged on campus. Lovely, yeah, so cool. Anything else you got? Anything else you want to add? You want to give any advice to young drummers, like you know, become a box maker or something.
Speaker 2Cool, cool. No, I mean learn you know, learn as much as you know. It's. It's gonna have talent, you know you have to know technology. Unfortunately, you know which I'm like not, I'm not a fan of this, you know, like having USB mic. Yeah, I'm just like I said, I'm a You're an analog guy, I'm an analog guy, analog guy, an acoustical guy.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know if this court I heard, I don't know if I said it or someone else said it and it's. But as far as like drumming goes, it's not rocket science, it's pocket science, right, and it's like you know, if you do your job, that job to make it easy for other players to not count or not think or not, you know you can mess them up later when it's like your time to blow Right and have fun with that Most part, you know if it, if it's not dancing, it's not dance, not happy, Yep.
Speaker 1You know, you know, I think that's, I think you're dead on with that. I agree with that.
Speaker 2So those guys that really make it dance. Bernard Curdie, you know I can go on. You know the list goes on and on and on. All, all our heroes, all the guys, but also, you know, develop as much technique as you can in your room. Yeah, Don't bring it on the bandstand unless the music calls for it, Right?
Speaker 1Right, no, no one to execute that music first. Yeah, yeah you know, and I think that's what, that's how you get more gigs. I mean, look at John. My favorite is John Robinson.
Speaker 2He's talking about a particular screw and how many hits that he play on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I mean, like a lot of young bands don't know who is, which is right so.
Speaker 2I used to love.
Speaker 1uh, Carlos Vega, he's another one.
Speaker 2Oh well, carlos Vega, um was just so special. I mean anything back play. I heard that like that when Gad got the James Taylor gig he was like a little nervous Like he had to fill those shoes Call us. Yeah, you know cause. It was cause Carlos had a very specific thing that that understated, like you know, lots of space.
Speaker 1Um, he was just a musical guy. He was a musical yeah.
Speaker 2Beautiful. Well, and that's um talking about musical drummers. You know, when I started playing with the Blues Brothers, uh, it was always the Blues Brothers band were. You know, marini and Alan Rubin and Trope and Leon Pantarvis. I mean, these guys lived in the studio in the 70s, 70s days. Those are the guys that did all the sessions. There were a million records and produce and I would talk to them about. You know, tell me about this player, tell me about that player. And uh, remember Alan Rubin saying Jeff Becaro. He said, yeah, all those other guys, every and Marini and the all great. He said, well, the caro came to a session and played. It was as if he wrote the song right, played drums Right. That's the. That's the best example. Like you know, make it musical, play the music.
Speaker 1And that's. That's really what that to me. I don't know that's what's really all about. The only thing I that I I can't stand Facebook. And the only thing that's good about Facebook they think it's funny is I've gotten to. I've gotten so good at like. You know, every time you go on Facebook you scroll through. There's a million guys playing. You know they put clips of their gigs on there and I never have the volume on. It's great. As I scroll through and I see all these bands and then I watch for a second and literally like I would say, five seconds of watching, not listening, I could tell if they suck or not. You're just like, just by the way that they're moving around on the stage Right.
Speaker 2It goes the other way too.
Speaker 1It goes the other way, exactly, like you can tell.
Speaker 2It's like, oh my God, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1It's funny.
Speaker 2Yeah, it really is. But yeah, some people put things up there. It's like, why did you post that? I know some people put the whole first set of their gig Like who's watching that?
Speaker 1Who's watching the whole first set? Why don't it just go down to the stage? What if people?
Speaker 2watched 30 seconds of the night.
Speaker 1Yeah, if that, if that, even you know.
Speaker 2All right, Anyway, Lee.
Speaker 1I'm glad you did this, man, because, like I said, people are like, oh, I'm going to listen to that one. They want to know what they want to know.
Speaker 2Whatever we said, hopefully people will appreciate it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think so, drummers especially. I hope I think so too. So cool. Thanks for doing this, lee, and check out the next time, man, I'll you know, we'll have it again, or something.
Speaker 2Good job, you have a great day, thank you.
