The Better Leadership Team Show
The Better Leadership Team Show
Knowing Exactly What To Say with Phil M Jones
In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I sit down with Phil M. Jones, bestselling author of Exactly What to Say, to explore how leaders can use language to influence, align teams, and drive action. Phil shares powerful insights on subconscious influence, strategic questioning, and overcoming indecision, helping leaders elevate their impact through the words they choose.
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
I think it's important that we don't shy away from conversations with people who have different opinions of us. I think it's imperative that we learn how to be able to do that, because the only way that minds are changed is if you can put yourself into a conversation where somebody might be able to go on and change your mind. The simplest of beliefs to have though, is you cannot change anybody else's mind on anything. If you're not prepared to be impressionable yourself, you have to go into conversations realizing you might not be right.
Mike Goldman:You made it to the better leadership team show, the place where you learn how to surround yourself with the right people, doing the right things. So you can grow your business without losing your mind. I'm your host and leadership team coach, Mike Goldman. I'm going to show you how to improve top and bottom line growth, fulfillment, and the value your company adds to the world by building a better leadership team. All right, let's go. For those of you watching. This podcast and not just listening, you'll notice we're in a little bit of a different place. We're actually in the Exactly What To Say studios, which is really cool. And the reason we're doing that is'cause we're gonna have, this podcast is gonna be a little masterclass in, in influence. And I know most leaders that I speak with when they think of using communication, using specific words to influence, they think about sales. but it's about a whole lot more than sales. So we're gonna talk to the expert today and Phil, I'm gonna read your background so everybody understands that. They need to listen in'cause you know what you're talking about. we're gonna interview Phil M Jones today, after several years as one of the youngest sales leaders in the United Kingdom, Phil created his training and consulting business in 2008. To date more than 800 different industries across 59 countries and five continents have benefited. From his input, he's trusted by aspiring leaders in healthcare, real estate, automotive, financial, and many more industries. He's also the founder of five. Multimillion dollar companies. He's best known for his international bestselling book, Exactly What To Say, which I've read a whole bunch of times, and more importantly, keep as a reference whenever I need it. it's called Exactly What to Say, the Magic Words for Influence and Impact. he's, amazing professional speaker. He is in the National Speakers Association. it's called the CPAE award, which is basically the Hall of Fame for, professional speakers and. Phil's one of the most generous people I know. I've been in a number of mastermind meetings with Phil, so really excited to, to get down and talk about influence. So Phil, thanks for doing this. Welcome to
Phil M Jones:thanks for having me on the show. I think we just got a podcast episode outta my intro, so we're almost there. There you
Mike Goldman:go. Cut that up however you want. Use it at all your marketing in all your experience. Phil, what do you believe is the number one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?
Phil M Jones:I think number one is always the challenging question to better answer and quite a difficult question to answer on anything yet, something that is always true in a great leadership team. Something that's ever present in every leadership team that I've ever been able to label as great, whether it's sporting, commercial, professional, etcetera, is there's always been a common North Star about. What winning looks like. the leadership team all have the same goal. They all have the shared mission. They all have the shared, objective of what we're trying to be able to achieve here and without that. I think it can become more challenging. So it's definitely that one care carefully considered clinical North Star that says what we are doing is that, and you see it in sports games, right? Like, like the North Star is to win the game. You see it in um, in business less frequently because what ends up happening is leadership teams have competing agendas, competing objectives, and that's where leadership teams can get fragmented.'cause people are chasing different rabbits.
Mike Goldman:yeah. and what's best for sales may not be what's best for operations, which may not be what's best for finance, which may not be what's best for marketing. So we need to understand who that, that number one team is, which in my mind is the leadership team and what is that north star
Phil M Jones:And it's what that common goal is, and not the common goal that lives internally inside the organization. It's picking something that is, is bigger than everybody in the team that says collectively, that's the monster. That's the dragon we're trying to slay. That's the part of gold we're chasing. Whatever it might be is that we all know that we have a role in that. And as, as somebody who's trained sales teams a lot through my years is, I've always said there are only two departments in a business is one is the sales department and the other is the sales support department. Like those are the only two divisions of a business. and I know that there's more to that, but you have to have a common enemy or a common goal. Without that, the leadership team is not gonna perform as a team because you're gonna be chasing different objectives.
Mike Goldman:So, so I'm tempted to jump into. How you communicate as a leader to get everybody to align around that North Star. But I said, I'm tempted. I'm not gonna go there because I think it, I, we're gonna get there, but I wanna, I think there's some foundational ideas that are important. First, and one is, you know, the, I kind of reread your book in preparing for this. and one of the things you said is, you know, you talk about magic words, and I think the book was originally called
Phil M Jones:Words. Yeah. the first edition of it was called Magic Words back in 2011.
Mike Goldman:and you say that magic words are sets of words that talk directly to the subconscious. Correct. Talk about that a little bit. What does that mean?
Phil M Jones:Well, when it comes to making decisions, then people miss the puzzle that we're often trying to overcome, which is this puzzle of indecision. Like we will tell people how to do things. We'll give people our opinions on being able to do things we'll. Share versions of what I think you should do is, but it often bounces. And when it comes to decision making, we think that there's a yes and a no output. Yet, more often than not, most people are stuck in maybe that even when they say yes or that they say no, what they really mean is maybe they just don't know enough to be either side of that line. The only part of our brain that can make decisions on impulse is our subconscious. That's what keeps us safe. It's how most of us don't die, and our subconscious is making decisions for us. Day in, day out, every micro moment of a day. It's like a human autopilot. So if you can talk to the part of somebody's brain that is fundamentally more decisive on impulse, and you can turn big decisions into series of small decisions, then you can get people to make decisions with more conviction. Because what they're doing is they're not procrastinating on the maybe. As leaders often what we're trying to be able to do is to move people from, from order like they are in order, even if what they're doing is not great. There is some degree of like habit, routine, function, focus. They're doing things in order, but we want them to get to new order to get from order to new order. The only way you can do it is to travel through chaos. And when you can talk to the part of somebody's brain that can make decisions quicker and with more conviction, then they can work through all the micro steps to get between order and new order.'cause you can help them navigate chaos.
Mike Goldman:so let's make this real because that the concept is important. Yeah. How do people take action on what's an example of talking to somebody's subconscious?
Phil M Jones:Well, let's look at it this way. What would be a from and two that we want to get somebody to,
Mike Goldman:let's say we want to get someone from you know, from focusing on. Let's talk about sales and operations. Okay. Get someone from focusing on just going out and maximizing their sales to getting them to subordinate. Just what's important to them to taking into account operations and what they can deliver. So you're trying to get the them to shift from what they're comfortable with to maybe a little bit of a different process or maybe selling some different things that they would all normally sell.
Phil M Jones:Well, how important is it to you that the operational team actually have the wherewithal to deliver upon your promises from the sales team?
Mike Goldman:Pretty important.
Phil M Jones:Okay. Well, when was the last time that you spoke to anybody in operations to give consideration to how your words, your actions are affecting their workflow?
Mike Goldman:I talk to them all the time about the stuff they're doing that's not working.
Phil M Jones:Okay. Well, and how important is it to you that they play like they're on the same team as you?
Mike Goldman:Oh, critical.
Phil M Jones:Well, therefore, could it be possible that the way that you are operating is making their life harder than it would need to be?
Mike Goldman:I haven't thought about it that way, but maybe, but so, so let me step back. And so what you're doing is you're kind of, instead of saying, I need you to play, I need you to play better with the operations team, you're kind of bringing me along one small step at a time,
Phil M Jones:in simple forms. Instead of me saying, don't be a dick, I'm helping you realize that you're being a dick. And you then internally say, I don't want to be that guy anymore. And it ends up with you helping ask, raising your hand, and asking for help or figuring out through the conversation what help looks like. Because the questions I'm asking you, you cannot hide from, there are not maybe answers. There are only the truth, and the truth starts to add up, and then the truth can't be argued. So that's what I mean by asking questions towards people subconscious, is like the answer comes straight out. They like comes inside. I know this one straight outta mouth. I know this one straight outta mouth. And before they know it, they've reached a conclusion that there was the conclusion that you were looking to get somebody to.
Mike Goldman:and I think one, one important piece to take from that is you weren't telling me anything, you were asking me questions. Right. And I know one of the other things I've heard you say is, you know, whoever is asking the questions is controlling the conversation. Right?
Phil M Jones:Yeah. They're at least leading it A a. And most leaders don't actually lead.
Mike Goldman:Say more about that. What do you mean by that?
Phil M Jones:Well, how many times do you bump into leaders that are either telling people what to do or they're responding to the asks of either their customers or their employees?
Mike Goldman:So most leaders,
Phil M Jones:right? So they're not reframing the question back in the other direction. I was with a group of leaders maybe three weeks back at a large event in Vegas, and many of the leaders would identify their value by being able to help their employees solve puzzles. So what would happen is junior employees would bring the challenge to their leadership and say, here's the puzzle I'm trying to solve, and the value of the leader was like, I can help you with this. That's how they saw themselves as being valuable. We see this showing up in the workplace all the time that leaders attach their value to being able to fix other people's problems, not for problems to get solved, for them to be the hero, the fixer inside somebody else's struggle. True leadership is helping people be able to self-discover and realize that they know how to think, so therefore that next time they find themselves in a situation that's more like that, they can solve the puzzle. I'll give an example. Is somebody in our organization is perpetually asking me for help. And, she's grown her career trajectory at like a phenomenal rate. She's done wonderful things, but to a point that she often bumps into imposter syndrome. Like, I'm not capable of being able to do what next is being asked of me. So when she finds herself in some of these moments, if she'll ping me like a text message or a Facebook message, she's like, I'm here. What do I do with this? It's always a like, I'm here, it's new territory to me. What do I do with this? And obviously I know a hundred things that I would do in that scenario that I could give her back, and I could feel like a hero where she'd be like, that's amazing. Thanks for the advice. But instead, what I say is, well, what is something that you thought that you might be able to do? And she'll go, gimme a list of things. I'm like, well, and out of those ideas, which one do you think might work best? And she'll go this one. And I'll say, well, like, like, why that? And she'll go, I say, any potential risks of that? And she'll go, not really. I say, well, what do you think you should do? And she says that. I said, why ask? Why are you asking me? And she'll then send an expletive or some form of like emoji and then get back to it. But she'll still repeat the process in three months or six months time when she hits another milestone and gets to the end of it is like, why am I even bother asking you for advice? And I'm like, I don't know. Why are you,
Mike Goldman:Well, what you're doing hopefully in time is modeling a set of
Phil M Jones:Right.
Mike Goldman:that she could use moving forward and not have to go back
Phil M Jones:Correct.
Mike Goldman:and what I find really interesting about that and I'm with you a thousand percent, is when you give someone advice. Even if it's good advice, and I think most often we're not giving good advice. We're giving what we would do, which may not be the right thing for them to do, but what winds up happening is if you say, okay, I, I think you ought to go do A, B, and C, and they get to B and they hit a brick wall, what they're gonna do look, is look back at you and go. Okay. Genius. Well, what do you want me to do next? Right. As opposed to, even if all of your questions, even if the result was they came to the conclusion, which was the same advice you would've given them. Now who owns it? they own it. So they hit that brick wall. What they're gonna do is find a way over it, through it around it, versus stopping and looking back at you. So I love that.
Phil M Jones:Yep. and our job as leaders is to grow leaders. And I believe that many leaders are scared of that fact because what if they create a better leader than they currently are? Do they make themselves redundant? Now, that to me should actually be the aspiration, but to many, it drives fear.
Mike Goldman:How much of it do you think is, man, it's so much quicker if I just give them advice.
Phil M Jones:That's a big thing to unpack. What is the question you're asking me?
Mike Goldman:My experience and I'm interested in yours is the excuse I get for someone not coaching and not asking. All the questions you said to ask is, man, if I do that, you know that's gonna take 20 minutes, but I know what to do if I tell'em what to do, that's gonna take 90 seconds and I'm too busy, so I'm just gonna tell'em what to do.
Phil M Jones:Okay. Well, what is the cost of delivering advice without explanation or self-discovery?
Mike Goldman:I'm with you. I'm at, do you see that? Do you see that the, that man, it's gonna take a lot of time. Do you see that as a, as an excuse?
Phil M Jones:I think so. Yeah. I think that's why it shows up regularly is people don't believe that they have the time to coach, but they live in the challenge of not truly coaching.
Mike Goldman:I also think they don't know. and maybe you can help with this. I think a lot of people don't know. What questions to ask. They think questions are, have you tried this? Have you tried this? Like, like just throwing darts. Have you tried these things? how should we be thinking about when someone does have a question for us and we're trying to coach them through it? is there a method to, to the questioning? Is there a structure to the questioning?
Phil M Jones:Can I borrow the question that you just shared to me? and use it as an example for how we could shape questions more effectively to have more meaningful conversations as leaders. Absolutely. You've phrased a question towards me that potentially has a precise answer. You asked me how should.
Mike Goldman:should
Phil M Jones:We go about blank, that means that I have to give you a right answer back. If the should was swapped for the word could. Now what we can do is have a process of exploration. So the mistake that many leaders make when they're asking questions of other people is they're trying to get from A to F or A to Z or A to some point further on in the alphabet, and they're trying to cover too much ground with one question. I'm gonna make this super simple with an example that shows up in everyday life. And Mike, could you, could you think about a child in your life that is maybe 4, 5, 6 years of age that is, is upset to a point that they're crying and you are puzzled by the fact that they're in tears? Could you imagine that scene? Sure. In that scene, what question do most adults ask of that child?
Mike Goldman:What's the matter? Right?
Phil M Jones:You are asking the child to self-diagnose whilst they are in a period of a unregulated nervous system to give you an answer to their struggle so you can feel better about how you can help them appease their issue. This is what we do as leaders all the time. We show up to our people and we ask them a question so that we can appear like the hero in their story. Like, what do you need from me in order to be able to help you better performing your job? What have we not done for you to be able to deliver is like we are asking these questions that are for our purpose, not for their purpose. Look at how we could change the question that we could ask of the child in distress. Instead of us asking what's wrong, we could ask them what happened and look how everything changes. Because when they answer the what happened question, you know, my sister stole my toy, like I slipped on the stairs, or I'm upset about a friend, or whatever it is. They're looking at a bit share. You find out what's wrong when you ask what happened, but you don't find out what's wrong by asking what's wrong, because people can't focus on how to deal with that response. So as leaders, the most simple questioning arc that we can bring up is past, present, future. And it's as simple as, so what's happened since? Where are we at and where do we go from here? If that was the only thing you took from our discussion today is every time you stepped into a conversation with somebody you cared about is what's happened since. So where are we at and where do we go from here?
Mike Goldman:It
Phil M Jones:highly probable that you would be a far more effective leader in conversations with one added caveat. And this is kind of ironic in what I'm saying right now. It's to never, ever speak in absolutes. No, what's your top, what's your number one, what should you do? What action is the right thing to do at this given moment is the, you stifle almost every piece of credibility when somebody thinks there's a right answer and a wrong answer. We have to create a play space that's a safe space, that's a gray space that allows people to be able to come drop up new ideas in it. And that is done by being less precise with your language on purpose,
Mike Goldman:and I see that in my personal life, probably more at least, or at least as much is my business
Phil M Jones:life.
Mike Goldman:Anytime I ever say to my wife, you always, or you never, I know I'm in trouble after I say that,
Phil M Jones:of course it creates friction because what it does is it triggers the side of the brain to evidence the time that you didn't, and what you're doing is you're creating fight or flight. When somebody says you always leave the toilet seat up, you're like, yesterday I put it down because it's a fight. And it doesn't need to be.
Mike Goldman:How much of this is technique? Here's the way I ought to say these things and learning. Don't say, should say could and. How much of it is technique versus building a certain attitude or belief before you go into the conversation?
Phil M Jones:How much of it is technique? Define technique for me.
Mike Goldman:So I'll give you an example. Okay.
Phil M Jones:Okay.
Mike Goldman:So years ago I had a staffing and recruiting firm, and I had a couple of staffing supervisors working for me, and I had read that as a leader, and I was still a young leader. I had read as a leader, we need to ask more questions, stop being so dictatorial and ask questions. So I said, great, I'm gonna ask more questions. So I asked a whole bunch of questions. Then I sat down with one of these leaders. Juliana, who's one of my staffing supervisors, and I said, what could I do better as a leader? We were doing a dreaded performance review, which I used to do back then. I said, what can I do better as a leader? And she said, I wish you'd listened to us more. I said, are you kidding? I asked you every morning we get together in our daily huddle and I ask questions, and she said, you do. But we always come around to the way you wanna do things. And what I realized is while I had learned some technique that could have worked, my attitude was still, I'm the smartest guy in the room. So that taught me like. Technique in and of itself is not always good enough. So I'm wondering if there is a, an attitude or a belief we need to have as a foundation to some of these techniques? Or is it more about the tech?'cause there is such a thing as behaving yourself into a new habit or a new belief. So I'm just wondering about the interplay of those two
Phil M Jones:things. Okay. Are you asking a question or are you disguising your belief as a question?
Mike Goldman:I am asking the question.
Phil M Jones:I
Mike Goldman:guess I'm checking my
Phil M Jones:Okay. By
Mike Goldman:the question. Okay,
Phil M Jones:Okay. So what the question would've been, what is your experience? Okay. You see how that would change things is what is your experience as opposed
Mike Goldman:to what is truly happening in the world. It's
Phil M Jones:as opposed to saying is, do you find blank to be true? That is leading the witness is whereas if you could say, well, you know, what is your experience been of what it really takes to be able to excel in these environments? The goal is to not put the answer in the question. If you put your answer in the question, then the other person is only gonna either feed your confirmation bias or they're gonna, they're gonna resist it into the other direction. What I do see from an experiential point of view that shows up into the reason why many people struggle in these environments is because they've been badly trained, they've been trained with lazy advice, like you need to ask more questions. They've been trained with, here is the script and the dialogue that you need to follow in this given environment. They've been constrained by a structure that is rigid, that becomes the tool to be able to navigate the conversation as opposed to the conversation itself. So they're either following the review process or they are, dancing through the presentation the way that it was intended to, or delivering the information the way they were trained to or following the question stack they were given by somebody else. What is required to be able to operate at the highest of levels in these environments is, in my opinion, not necessarily technique. it is skillset more so than technique.
Mike Goldman:how do you differentiate between those two?
Phil M Jones:if you are baking a cake. You can understand the technique fully of what it takes to be able to make the batter, put it into the tin, put it into the oven. It doesn't necessarily mean that what comes out of the oven is a great cake. You could have had the technique. You need to have skill and skill is something that is a combination between technique and experience. It is. it is something that allows you to be able to navigate the nuance of reality alongside technique. That means that you can deliver guaranteed outcomes in the same as the cake baking analogy. There is skill means that you know that if the humidity of the environment you're in that period of time is gonna affect the. Humidity inside the oven. And I'm, I might be talking nonsense here right now, but it's like, you know how the external factors affect the model technique, so therefore you can adjust in real time to be able to guarantee yourself an outcome. So I believe that the skillset is essential. The other part that I believe is essential is mindset. And something that I've learned to be remarkably true in my life is the more I know, the less I know for sure. So as my life has gone on and I've gained more experience and more information and more wisdom, the more certain I am, I don't know enough. And I think that's the mindset that you should bring towards how you show up in negotiation type conversations is the strongest of leaders have no predetermined outcomes. The strongest of sales professionals have no predetermined outcomes.
Mike Goldman:They
Phil M Jones:They have hopes, ambitions, and goals. Sure. But they're not deciding how this is gonna go. They're actually showing up to conversations with a degree of neutrality is, I don't know where this is gonna end up, but I know I'm skilled enough to find out, and whether that's a, is this somebody that I'm going to coach up or coach out that you can show up to a conversation not needing to know that ahead of time. You can show up to a conversation saying, I'm gonna find out. In today's conversation, and I'm at peace with either direction,
Mike Goldman:You're show showing up, curious to some degree
Phil M Jones:strategically curious, and that's the skillset and mindset that can help you win. and it means that you should never, ever give any advice about anything unless you can say these words first. And the words you should look to say first are the words because of the fact that you've said. Because of the fact that you said blank, and blank. Then for those reasons, my recommendations would be blank, and blank. And now every recommendation you make is significantly more palatable towards the other person because it was for their reasons and not yours.
Mike Goldman:and starting off with, because of the fact that you said assumes that you've asked them some questions before, so you've heard what they've
Phil M Jones:said. That's an insanely simple framework to think about. In theory, it's a challenging framework to deliver in practice'cause you have to collect the blanks. How do you collect the blanks? You have to be strategically curious and even look at strategically curious questions following the past, present, future arc that mentioned earlier is you could strategically question somebody towards their past situation. Hey, last time we spoke, you mentioned blank, and blank. What's happened since. So, where are we at? Where do we go from here? How much longer do you see yourself working as part of this organization? How important is it to you that you are well liked by your other team members? How important is it to you that the task that you're taking on board are delivering the right kind of results for we need inside the business at this moment in time? Could it be possible that the activities and actions you've been putting in were really high impact activities for the way the business used to be and are not so relevant for what they need to be today? Hey, Mike, because of the fact that you said that it's important to you that you are a long-term part of our future here in this organization, and that you're prepared to be able to do what is necessary to be able to make a change, and that you believe that you have access to the right resources to be able to step up for those reasons. I'm gonna give you another chance. We're gonna put you on a 90 day program. We're gonna help you with blank, and blank. What I'm gonna do differently for you is blank, and blank, and what you're gonna commit to be able to do is blank and blank. Does that sound fair? But it isn't just asking more questions, it's collecting a body of evidence so that you can make meaningful recommendations.
Mike Goldman:How would you say so with the example, it tells us a lot about how you might have that difficult conversation to give somebody feedback. Sure. Maybe similar, but let me ask if you have, I'm just, scenarios are going through my mind where I know leaders have. Difficult times communicating and don't always do it. Right. One of those is you've got a peer on the team. Maybe I'll go back to sales and operations. You got the head of sales, you got the head of operations that are banging heads for any number of reasons, and you know how should one or both of them I use that should what I'm gonna try and answer the question in the right way. Right. what's your experience in, in, in ways that those leaders. Could enter into those conversations to improve the chances of a positive result.
Phil M Jones:Okay. and is this, who's initiating this conversation? If this is sales and operations? Who's initiating,
Mike Goldman:let's say it is I'll, let's say it's operations who has finally had enough of what's going on and says. We've gotta figure out an answer. So let's say it's the operations person that's saying, you know, man, we need to talk as this isn't working.
Phil M Jones:Okay. I think firstly, you've gotta remember you're on the same team and you've gotta believe that this is a teammate, not an enemy. So I would start with that view, and I would also realize, I don't know enough about the pressure, the challenges, the obstacles that sales leader is having at that moment in time. And that if I want them to understand more about my scenario, I'm gonna have to decide that I'm gonna have to learn more about theirs. What I'm then gonna look to be able to do is initiate a conversation'cause I have to lead this, right? I have to start this conversation from somewhere. So I'm going to use a preface of a sequence of words from the book, exactly what to say, which are the words, when would be a good time. So if I'm in, in operations, and I wanna bring this up with you, Mike, and you're in sales, is I could do this via text message, I could do this via email. I could do this over a phone call. I'm gonna put some form of contextual setup in place that says, you know, Mike, I know that we're both on the same team when it comes from a leadership point of view and something we, both definitely want to be able to achieve is to make sure that we collectively achieve better outcomes for our shareholders, for our customers, etcetera. I might also put another fact in there is that I also understand at this moment in time there are things that we are doing that are frustrating you and that there are some things that you are doing that potentially could be frustrating us. When would be a good time for us to talk this through properly note properly. So that we can put a plan forward from here. Question mark. Now that could be an email, it could be a text message, it could be a quick phone call, but it's a monologue. And what I'm doing is I'm putting some context up front that says, I understand that I'm a part of the problem here too.
Mike Goldman:Yeah. You're not blaming,
Phil M Jones:not blaming me, not blaming in any way, shape, or form. I'm asking when would be a good time. I'm adding a word like properly, completely, fully.'cause otherwise what we end up doing is we end up doing the, you got a minute. Right. And if you catch somebody with the got in it, you don't get the best version of them. Show up to those
Mike Goldman:conversations. That could also be, we just argued about this yesterday,
Phil M Jones:right?
Mike Goldman:properly says we gotta do things differently.
Phil M Jones:Correct? And I'm giving it a frame that says that we are gonna now enter into this conversation. Now I've created a moment. I'm then gonna approach that conversation with strategic curiosity saying, what don't I know? But I'm gonna maybe put something up there, up front. And there's a structure that we teach to how to open any conversation, and it's a structure we call OFQ, which is opening fact question. That's a polite opening, a mutually agreeable fact, and then an easy to answer question. So when I step into this conversation as the ops leader to the sales leader and we're sat across a boardroom table,'cause we created a moment that was free from distractions that we both had enough time towards, is I'm gonna say like, Hey Mike. I know we haven't spent a lot of time working together in the same space, right? If this is a mutually agreeable fact, I also know that we're on the same team, and what we definitely wanna be able to do is to make the CEO happy with our combined outcomes. And I also know that my team are giving me a hard time, and you might not know just how much of a challenge that is causing in their day to day. Then I'm gonna give an easy to answer question. And in this scenario, the easy to answer question could be is no doubt. There are some things on your side of responsibility that we are doing that is making your life less than ideal too. Would that be fair?
Mike Goldman:Yeah. they're gonna say yes,
Phil M Jones:right? Or they're gonna say no.
Mike Goldman:no.
Phil M Jones:Either way, I win. That's what makes it an easy to answer. no. You guys are great. So hang on. You are the asshole. Got it. Right, but either way, like I'm admitting that we can have some form of creation of new normal here.'cause we are not perfect too. But I'm giving you permission to answer a question simply, and that easy to answer question just gives me the frame to then step into what's next. Where do I go from here? I go, past, present, future. I say, well, what do you understand about the challenges that are created inside of our department as a result of what you're doing about blank, and blank? And they say, well, not much. I say, well, what is your experience about what it takes to be able to deliver blank, and blank? They say not much. I say, when was the last time that you needed to be able to stand up in front of a customer and explain to them why we can't deliver what your salespeople have put on the paperwork? They're like, I haven't. I'm like, how would you feel if that was you having to be able to go back on the promise that one of your coworkers made? And could it be possible that there's a simple solution here? Well, yeah, I guess so. What I do, I just future cast it again. Right? So where do we go from here? And then they self-diagnose a failure.
Mike Goldman:what you're probably doing there is modeling. if I, if you're the operations person and I'm the salesperson, you're modeling.'cause if I have problems too. I'm now, you've just taught me something. I'm gonna come back at you with maybe some similar questions, which should be beautiful.
Phil M Jones:We're creating a lingua franca here that allows us to be able to communicate around chaos. Because what we're not doing is, I'm not saying you are the problem. I'm saying there's a problem and what I need is I need your help for us to go solve this problem over here. Instead, most people come at the problem and say, you are the issue. And if I'm ever labeling a conversation where I'm saying, you are the problem, the only thing you're gonna do as a human being is fight or flight.
Mike Goldman:Yeah. I'm gonna get defensive.
Phil M Jones:You. You can't not, because the alternative is to either be the victim or take the beating, neither of which you wanna do. even if you accept that you're being victimized or you feel like you're just gonna take the beating,'cause you're tough, you still leave the meeting going, fuck you. Right.
Mike Goldman:it's, you know, it's something I say that my audience has probably heard a thousand times. The idea of the law, of positive intent, believing the other person's just trying to do the best they can with the resources they have. And you talk about mindset, that's a mindset going in that's gonna make you curious. You're gonna ask questions, you're not gonna, it's not gonna be about anger and frustration. It's curiosity as to what's really going
Phil M Jones:and it's not my right and your wrong. It's what is the new version of, right, that we're gonna co-create together in this conversation. And that allows you to say, face allows everybody to say face, because we're not trying to label moments we're trying to create next.
Mike Goldman:Now I'm gonna use this as a way to, to loop back around to the way you answered the first question around great leadership teams where you talked about North Star in alignment. Because this conversation that we're talking about, this difficult conversation between the head of sales and the head of operations is gonna go a lot easier if there is some shared vision of what we're all trying to create versus the operations vision versus the sales division and their. You know, they're battling against each other. What are some of the mistakes you've seen leaders make in aligning around that North Star? Some companies do a great job of it. Some, not so much. What mistakes have you seen leaders make in trying to get that organization aligned?
Phil M Jones:The most common or reoccurring mistake I see on that is they set a north star that is not inclusive of a belief that every stakeholder has a part to play in that. So sometimes that North Star, star is a revenue goal or it's. Some, you know, some lofty exit strategy goal or Right? it isn't something that people can see themselves in. And the result of which is that when people can't directly see how their contribution impacts that North Star is, they're not playing for that North Star. They have to go pick another one because they don't see a path to their involvement in the achieving of that North Star and. I give the revenue examples on this. Somebody can be like, you know, we want to grow revenue in this department. Our North Star is that we want to get to, you know, 350,000 units of production. That's our North Star. Everything that we're all doing is to get to 350,000 units in production. and somebody isn't realizing that if their job is in customer support, customer service, operations, or delivery. Is it has nothing to do with them, how many gets put into the top end. But if that was redefined, that says the reason we wanted to get to 350,000 units is because we wanted to change our ation to be the number one in the industry of blank, which means that we need to displace, this person, this person, this person, to better get to number one now, customer support, customer service operation could get behind the, our job is to be number one in our class. That's what the North Star is. We want to be the number one X in Y. Therefore, if we're dropping the ball at fulfillment, if we're dropping the ball in customer support, if we're dropping the ball on reputation and reach, it doesn't matter how much that goes into the top end. We won't reach the number one position if we're not delivering our promises all the way through to the finish line. If people are leaving, if people are bad mouthing, like everybody can understand, they have the parts to play in it. So the North Star needs to be big enough to mean that every member of the orchestra needs to understand what musical instrument they're playing, why the song matters, and what a standing ovation looks like. It's big, but the mistake that people make is there's a self-centered North star that doesn't include everybody.
Mike Goldman:Yeah, I love it. And I always hate the, do you know, our big hairy, audacious goal is to be a billion dollar company, and half the organization is saying, why do I care about that? And by the way, I don't know if I want that. We're gonna go from this great close-knit environment to this big company, and I'm gonna be a number. So, so I love that. how could leaders take all of this? And there's a ton more in your book, and in a lot of your teachings and your podcast and your keynotes. how could a leader take all this and make it a habit?
Phil M Jones:Okay.
Mike Goldman:Okay. Because it's so easy to get caught up in the moment and they're running fast and I'm, you know, I'm gonna do it quick. How do they take all these things? And ma I mean, even some of the questions I asked you, you corrected me on, you know, and rightfully so on, on how to ask that question. How do we make that a habit?
Phil M Jones:A skillset comes through repetition. There are two simple actions that every leader could take that would result in them being a significantly better communicator. The first is to decide what are their three critical conversations. There are three most critical conversations at this moment in time in their life. Can they pick three? One that should have some form of revenue attachment towards it. One that should have some people and productivity attachment towards it. And one may be in the way that they lead in a personal area of their life, in their family, or in a friend group, etcetera. So they've got a personal critical conversation. They've got a money moment, critical conversation, and they've got, you know, a leadership impact, people of productivity conversation, simply knowing what are the moments that you are worthy of focusing on. Are gonna make you a better communicator.'cause people say every moment matters and they do. But some moments matter more. So could a leader just identify that they're pretty good at most of their job but they suck at opening meetings? Could a leader realize that they're pretty good at creating culture amongst their team, but they're not so good at driving daily productivity, and it's because of the way they close out every morning huddle. Could a leader realize that? That they might be doing a great job of being able to inspire their team, but they're not necessarily doing a good enough job of being able to inspire their family to get excited about what's happening in the remainder of the year, and find a moment where they could more impact that. Every leader could do that. Pick a moment where you realize that currently you're a six outta 10, that if you are 8, 9, 10, or 11, it would change your world and stay on just that moment until you elevate your performance to a level that you're like, I got that. That's now my standard operating process. Then move again. Move again. This mindset around critical conversations is really helpful for self, but how much of a better leader would you be if you knew everybody in your team? What are they working on commercially? What are they working on as a moment of impact as a leader in their life? What is showing up in their life personally? That is their critical conversations. You can lead your people better. The second thing to be able to give consideration to. It is how do you build a practice around the words that you reach for so that you don't practice on your prospects, you don't practice on your people, you practice in private. Then when you're in high impact moments with your people, you've got reps. And I'll show an example of how we can do that here with the book is people read this book in like an hour and they're like, that was an easy read. I get it. And then they don't practice any of it in their daily conversations. And it's because they thought the job was to read this book. The reason I made this book so small is so that you could rinse, repeat it, rinse, repeat it, rinse, repeat it, rinse, repeat it. The challenge that people though struggle with is they don't add the missing ingredient, which is their lens. What you should be able to do is to write an example of every sequence of words in this book around a moment that you've decided that matters to you. We're gonna put this to test right now. And Mike, if you were a leader right now looking to navigate a particular type of conversation, what might that conversation be? And I'm gonna write an example from every sequence of words in the book to see how this plays out.
Mike Goldman:Say the question one more time
Phil M Jones:is what might be a challenging conversation that a leader is looking to be able to have that if they were to use the book as a practice tool to get ready for it, what might it be? And we're gonna write a new example that isn't in the book from memory.
Mike Goldman:an example that's happening right now. I've got a leader who. Needs to get where they want to go. This new vision they have as an organization, they need to significantly raise the bar right on the skill level and performance of the people within the organization and raise the bar on new people they're hiring. Okay. And that's been a difficult conversation to have.
Phil M Jones:Okay. And that's the outcome that you'd like to have from that conversation? Where's the moment?
Mike Goldman:The moment is, one of the moments is this leader, having a conversation with one of one, one of the members of the senior leadership team that is, that has not raised the bar on the performance
Phil M Jones:Yep.
Mike Goldman:Of their team. And therefore the performance that was acceptable six months ago is no longer acceptable. Yeah. And helping. communicate and helping that leader change their behavior to either have people rise up mm-hmm. Or say we may need to have some more difficult conversations.
Phil M Jones:So I'm gonna put this to work, right? These are just the words in the book that I'm gonna run through the lens that you've just presented here. And firstly, I'm gonna make a, an invitation. I'm gonna say, I'm not sure if it's for you, but how open-minded would you be to a proper sit down conversations about how you could be more effective to the organization at large, based on the situation we're currently in, in the business? Sure.
Mike Goldman:Sure. Wide open.
Phil M Jones:I'm gonna say, well, what do you know about what it really takes to be able to execute at the level that we need to?
Mike Goldman:Oh, I know what it takes to get where we've already gotten, but I'm still learning what it takes to get to the next step.
Phil M Jones:Well, how would you feel if we are questioning whether you've got what it takes to be able to get us to where we need to go?
Mike Goldman:I'd want to know what you're questioning and what improvements I need to make
Phil M Jones:and look. I mean, just imagine. What it's gonna mean to us individually, if we can all create the change that's necessary to get us to where we want to go.
Mike Goldman:Yeah. The new vision's great. I'd love to figure out how to get there.
Phil M Jones:Well, when would be a good time for you to document a meaningful plan about what you think would need to change to be, to get us there from,
Mike Goldman:I could have something by the end of the week.
Phil M Jones:I'm guessing you haven't got around to being able to complete the plan fully yet. I
Mike Goldman:I just told you I was gonna Yeah, I get it. Right. Yeah. If it's a week goes by and that happens. Yeah.
Phil M Jones:Bingo. Right? We then have a chapter called Simple Swaps, and like remember earlier I gave simple swaps about swapping shoulds for coulds and Yeah. Right. is, there are always examples. We're stepping into the situation. We can be aware of, like we're looking at problems, we're looking at challenges. We're not looking at mistakes, we are looking at opportunities. Like there's so many areas where you can look at like what are all the, definitely don't say that. Say this instead, again, stepping in. To this same scenario, I'm just running my practice here. I'm gonna say, look, the way I see it's you have three options, is obviously what you could do is you could do the things of the way that you've always done. Keep showing up. Try to do that harder. Look to be able to put more energy and effort into it, however, unlikely see improve results. Alternatively, you could decide that this is not the place that you want to pursue your career in, and you can decide to start looking for another job. Or
Mike Goldman:Or
Phil M Jones:what we can do is. we can look at creating a completely different playbook, share some insights that have worked in other organizations in the past, you can follow the development plan that we've created for you and perhaps get some alternative results. Out of those three options, which one do you think is more likely to be able to help get us to achieve the North Star that we're all looking for?
Mike Goldman:Yeah, the last one.
Phil M Jones:Got it. So all I'm doing, and
Mike Goldman:No, love that. and to me, you know, the thing this is helping me with, you said a couple of things. One, you know, running through. Again, it's easy to think of influence as, you know, this is important for the salespeople and we're just showing, no, this is any high stakes conversation we need to have. But you said something before that, that's super important where you talked about, you know, what are the, what are the three, you know, most important moments. You know, whether it's personal, whether it's professional. And what that helped me with is, one of the things I've heard you say, and I think you say it in the book as well, I know you say it in your book, is, you know, the worst time to, to think about what you're gonna say is the moment where you need to
Phil M Jones:a hundred percent.
Mike Goldman:And I always look, I look at that, I'm like. Well, that sounds great, but man, I can't plan for every damn conversation. But what you said that's super helpful is, no, that's not what we're saying. but if we do say, Hey, right now in, you know, at this point in time, these are the three moments, these are the three situations that are most important. And yeah. Damn. Well better, better plan for what I'm gonna say and how I'm gonna say it and what my mindset needs to be.
Phil M Jones:Watch what happens if I keep going with these here as well. Yeah. Right. Is I've just come off that you have three options. I could say, look, Mike, there are two types of people in this world. There are those that are nostalgic about the way that things used to be done, and there are those that prepare for growth, right? And you're like, okay, well I wanna be the latter and I bet you're a bit like me. And that you're prepared to continually change when the change is worth it for the people you care about. And you're like, yeah. And I'm gonna say, look, you know, if you wanna be part of this team, then then I'm excited for us to be able to get to work together. Don't worry, you're not in this alone. You have the resources and support that I've promised to you from my side too.
Mike Goldman:And by the way, if it's not clear, for those of you that are listening and not watching, all Phil's doing is stepping through the pages of his book and using every, you know, each chapter has some, a way to say something. Yeah. And all he is doing is stepping through the book and applying it to this situation.
Phil M Jones:Right. And then I'd say, look, that, you know, most people would resist this kind of feedback and change. And I know that you're not like most people, the good news is that there is so much more that is in your control than you currently believe is possible. And. The further good news is that I believe that you've got it, what it takes to do this. And what happens next is that we are going to put the work in to be able to help devise that plan. We're gonna give you the resources that you're currently missing and you're gonna say, well, I still dunno whether I can do it. And I'm gonna say, really, what makes you say that? And then you're gonna have to explain yourself, If you gimme any further pushback or resistance as to why something can't be done. I'm gonna say, look, before you make your mind up. Would it make sense if we just look at all the facts, And then at the end of that conversation when we've looked at all the facts, I'm gonna say, look, if I can give you the resources that you're looking for, will you commit to give this your full attention, energy, and effort? And I'm gonna get your buy-in,
Mike Goldman:and all you're really doing is exactly what you said, no pun intended. Exactly what you said early in the conversation, which was about getting, you know, taking smaller steps, talking to that subconscious mind and taking the easiest step forward versus going from beginning a conversation to the final chapter in the book and saying, okay, so this is what we need to do. No.
Phil M Jones:just
Mike Goldman:gotta, we've gotta guide them there to not guide. gotta take step by step through the smaller questions.
Phil M Jones:The beauty of following that as a practice though, before you go into a conversation isn't necessarily'cause you're gonna show up to that conversation and say, that's my core structure. It is because what you've done is you've just done a warmup of potential moves that you could make that depending upon which point of the conversation you find yourself in, you've got choices, you've got options, you've got some muscle memory about how something might come out and how it might, si, might sound. So the work I would encourage leaders to do is to always think about your three critical conversations. Run them through the lens of how the examples in the book can now be rewritten. Where you are rewriting the examples. You're not thinking about the examples in the book. You're thinking about writing examples that can serve your moments. And then the only other moments you need to get prepared for is the ones that you know that are coming, which is later today. So if you've got something happening later today, could you run your practice? Yeah, run your practice. And pros, practice. Pros, practice. They're not brilliant at what they do. They're brilliant at what they do because they practice. So create yourself a practice that allows you to be more ready for the no moments by getting ready for the no moments before you find yourself in a no moment.
Mike Goldman:Before we wrap things up, I'm gonna take a little bit of a left turn to something that's more, I guess I'll say it's current. It's been going on for a while, but it's heavier now, is the idea of political conversations
Phil M Jones:happening at work,
Mike Goldman:and I'm not asking where you stand on the, on, the political, left versus right, but. That you know, more and more. That's something that, you know, it used to when it came up at work, it would cause some debates and some arguments and everybody go their separate ways, but they could still be friends tomorrow. But the world has gotten so polarized, obviously, it's. You know, it, my experience is it's more dangerous today than it's ever been if you handle it in the wrong way. what's been your experience with the, do you just, do you stay away from those conversations? Do you have them? But there's a way to have them.
Phil M Jones:I went there in a PBS interview on television just a short number of weeks ago, is I think it's important that we don't shy away from conversations with people who have different opinions of us. I think it's imperative that we learn how to be able to do that, because the only way that minds are changed is if you can put yourself into a conversation where somebody might be able to go on and change your mind. The simplest of beliefs to have though, is you cannot change anybody else's mind on anything. If you're not prepared to be impressionable yourself, you have to go into conversations realizing you might not be right. We're back to that neutral position, but look how a practice could serve you. Again, I go back to the book, look, Mike, I'm not sure if it's for you, but how open-minded would you be to considering how you know me and somebody from my background might see this kind of slightly differently.
Mike Goldman:Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Phil M Jones:Like there's a starting point there. We just created a frame, right?
Mike Goldman:same framework. Yeah,
Phil M Jones:You know, what do you know, or what do you understand about all of the facts to do with X, Y, and z? What do you know about the reason why somebody might be thinking that? What do you know about why that might be a good thing, as well as the bad thing? What do you know about, you know, how there might be some long-term benefit from that kind of policy, belief or change? Like if I'm questioning the fan, not your belief or your opinion, but the knowledge base of that belief or opinion, that's where we can kind of start to be able to find some cracks. Like, well, how? How would you feel if, and then I'm gonna say that it was somebody you cared about, somebody you love. It was your daughter, your friend, your mother that was being, experiencing those kind of negative changes. Or how would you feel if you were living in this scenario and these were your circumstances? And I can put people into an alternative universe and I can say, well, you know, just imagine like how life would be if we could find out that there are some things that we all agree on more than we disagree.
Mike Goldman:And
Phil M Jones:then give people some hope. And I could say, look, you know, you know, when would it be a good time for you to sit with me look at my newsfeed for a day and see how that might change some of your beliefs. And, you know, I look, I'm
Mike Goldman:but in all of this, as you said, you've gotta be open to changing your beliefs as
Phil M Jones:well. A hundred percent. You
Mike Goldman:you're not, it seems like the dangerous thing is entering into the conversation with the goal of trying to prove you are right and they wrong versus entering into conversation to say. Let's find a little bit more about how we both think and and if we end up the conversation just with me a little smarter about what you're thinking about and you're a little smarter about what I'm thinking about doesn't mean we have to change where we stand politically or what we believe about gun control or what we believe about tariffs or anything else. What is, let's share some information.
Phil M Jones:What is one plus one?
Mike Goldman:two.
Phil M Jones:That's what most
Mike Goldman:always though. Not always
Phil M Jones:is when you learn that one plus one can equal eight. Everything changes in your world. I'll explain it, right, if I'm one and you are one. One plus, one is two. But what we also have is we also have something else here. That's you and me. That's another two. We also have me and you. That's another two. We also have us, that's another two. So actually there are eight separate identities in one plus one, And that's the part that most people forget. And you cannot create a change in anybody's conversational environment until you've taken a zoom back to give consideration of all of those different perspectives. There are all different vantage points'cause in a conversation about something that we are looking to better talk about. I got my opinion, you got your opinion. We also have our opinion. I also have my opinion. Towards you. You have your opinion towards me. We then also have a collective opinion. you see like all of those dynamics mean that one plus one equals eight. When you know that you'll never enter a conversation the same way again. Because until you can actually explore all those different dynamics, you have no right to form an opinion.
Mike Goldman:Phil, if someone wants to find out more about you, your books, your speaking, where's the best place for them to go?
Phil M Jones:easiest place to go is to go philmjones.com or exactlywhattosay.com. That will point you in the direction of any of the adventures you want to go more on. If you've enjoyed this conversation and you wanna pick it up and share something that you found useful or ask a question about something you need some more insights on, come to Instagram. Come to@philmJonesuk you can let me know that you found me on Mike's Random podcast when he was up here in Hudson in the studio, and we can pick up the conversation. We'll be left off here today.
Mike Goldman:Beautiful. Well, I always say if you want a great company, you've gotta have a great leadership team. Phil, thanks for helping us get there today.
Phil M Jones:Thank you for having me.