Unfazed Under Fire Podcast
Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to help senior executives lead with greater impact, resilience, and well-being. Each episode is rooted in proven, systemic frameworks that empower leaders to achieve extraordinary results, foster high-performing cultures, and thrive in today’s complex and unpredictable business environment.
I created this podcast for two key reasons:
First, to provide executives with leadership principles and culture-enhancing frameworks that support them in turning their visions into reality and achieving their goals.
Second, to challenge and inspire the leadership development and executive coaching fields to adopt new approaches—particularly breakthroughs in neuroscience—that accelerate growth and enhance leadership effectiveness.
In a time of global crisis and unprecedented challenges, business leaders are uniquely positioned to drive change that unites rather than divides. By embodying enlightened leadership, executives can create environments that unlock the full potential of their teams and generate innovative solutions for a better future.
If you're an executive committed to this kind of leadership, this podcast is for you. Let’s shape the future of leadership together.
Unfazed Under Fire Podcast
The Transformational Journey of Leadership that Maximizes Impact
Discover the dynamic world of resilient leadership in uncertain times as we welcome the accomplished Sarah Carlsen to "Unfazed Under Fire." Sarah, an executive coach, leadership team coach, and former operations executive, offers her profound insights on leadership development, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and accountability. Her journey from math major to leadership thought leader is a testament to embracing unique paths and continuous growth, providing invaluable lessons for executives seeking to elevate their impact in today's complex environments.
Learn how Sarah navigated her career path by making conscious choices to avoid burnout, focusing on the real needs of clients through comprehensive assessments and adaptive approaches. Together, we explore organizational dynamics and the essential role of emotional intelligence in leadership. Sarah shares her strategies for recognizing and addressing emotional dynamics within teams, especially during disruptive times, and the significance of fostering psychological safety to enhance team effectiveness.
The conversation goes deeper into the transformative power of tools like the Enneagram and Leadership Circle Profile, which aid personal and professional growth. Sarah's experience as a Type Three Achiever on the Enneagram offers insights for high achievers on integrating vulnerability and emotional awareness. We conclude with a powerful discussion on leadership and relational systems intelligence, highlighting the impact leaders can have by investing in personal growth and developing those around them. Join us for a compelling episode that inspires purposeful leadership and meaningful value creation in organizations.
To connect with Sarah, go here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-carlsen-pcc/
Unfazed Under Fire Podcast - Host: David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist
Access to all our platforms:
https://www.unfazedunderfirepodcast.online
Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to elevate your leadership and amplify your impact. Each episode offers valuable insights to help you transform your vision into reality, cultivate high-performing cultures that attract top talents, and navigate the complexities of today's uncertain, chaotic world with confidence and clarity. Now tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and leadership alchemist, david Craig Utz.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Unfazed Under Fire. I'm David Craig Utz, the resilient leadership guy, your host and moderator for the show. Now, this show aims to support executives like you in strengthening your impact as leaders and your resilience so you can thrive in today's uncertain, disruptive, crazy world. This show is a stand for creating and bringing forth breakthroughs in how we develop leaders and organizational cultures so that they are providing the most uplifting, rewarding work experiences for your talent, while also igniting the best in them to bring service to the mission and priorities of your organization. The desire for an evolution of leadership development is based on the truth that human beings have all the resourcefulness they need within them to rise above and address the biggest challenges we're facing today, and to be able to do so with grace. The first step to tapping into this inner resource, which is a birthright to claim, comes from recognizing that leading and living are truly inside-out journeys. That means that if an executive genuinely desires to have positive impact on the world around them, they first must gain some level of self-mastery or self-leadership from within themselves, and once they gain such mastery, it sets the stage for powerfully leading others, and without it, especially during these times, leading at best can be a confusing endeavor.
Speaker 2:Today, it's a great pleasure to be joined by special guest, sarah Carlson, who is a dear colleague of mine. Sarah is an executive leadership and team coach with nearly two decades of experiencing empowering individuals and teams to reach their full potential. She's a certified Integrative 9 Enneagram practitioner and is also certified in the Leadership Circle profile, a background that she and I share. She brings a unique combination of analytical precision and empathetic insight, as she often describes herself as having an engineer brain with an empathetic heart. This fusion allows Sarah to excel in complex organizational environments where she integrates individual strengths with broader organizational goals. Now, since founding Carlson Coaching, consulting and Consulting, sarah has helped transform some of the most challenging teams into high-performing collaborative powerhouses.
Speaker 2:I'm maybe looking forward to hearing a couple of stories today. Leveraging tools like the Enneagram and the Leadership Circle profile I mentioned, she specializes in developing self-awareness, shared vision and a culture of accountability that fosters both individual growth and organizational success, which is the goal. As a thought leader in leadership development, she thrives in guiding your clients through moments of disruption and complexity, which we have plenty of today. Whether working with leadership teams, partnerships or individuals, sarah has a gift for helping people identify what's working what's in the way and how to take action to achieve their goals, and, with her deep expertise of execution and passion, she cultivates high-trust, high-performing cultures. I'm really excited to dive in the conversation today.
Speaker 2:Now, on a personal note, she lives an hour south of the Twin Cities, just a little ways away from me. With her husband, brad, she's launched three adult children in the world, which is quite a feat, including two twin girls, anika and Siri, who are 25, and a son, tegan, who is 20. I hope I got the pronunciation of those names all right. Welcome to the show, sarah. Did I miss anything that you think I should be sharing about your background, or you'd like?
Speaker 3:to share. Yeah, I think the only thing and we'll get into this, david is I did train with the Global Center for Relationship on organizational and relationship systems coaching and I have to say so, I did that training in 2019, which is why I'm realizing more and more I put all of my work in a systems context, because we're always an individual operating inside of different systems and I think that combination really shifts how we understand ourselves and each other, and so I just realized I didn't really put that into my bio, but it is actually core to how I do this work. And then the only other thing I would say is it is Annika and Siri and Taigen, which, even though it looks like Tegan Taigen, yeah, yeah and.
Speaker 2:I would say that there you go. That's why I need to be.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say, and parenting twins is part of what kicked off a lot of my work in a way, you know, starting to see the differences between two children who are born six minutes apart and how they came into the world as different kids and develop differently and how we responded to them differently, and so I feel like those two especially were part of my early training.
Speaker 2:Well, parenting is definitely a test at times, isn't it? For seeing where we have to grow ourselves, for sure, yeah, sure, and also learning how to be more effective in the world, for sure, so great. Well, you know. So, as with my first time guests, I really like you to talk a little bit about your journey in your own words. This is one of my. You look at the long journey of life. It tends to always might have turns, but it always ends up in a pretty good place for most part. So just if you could share a little bit about your general, about your journey, how you came into the work you're doing and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah Well, so I was a math major, more by um default than by choice. It was what my older brother had done and I liked to. I wanted to be like him and that made me you'll understand from an Enneagram three lens. That made me look smart, um, and so I got my teaching credentials and taught for six months and was terrible as a long-term sub and had known I didn't want to teach and I didn't anyway be for various reasons. But so my first real job ended up being as a systems analyst, and then my role I ended up being kind of between the technical people and the end users, so it was more, you know, like a business analyst role, and I realized that I was held differently than other people in that role, because business people were like oh, you know technology and I don't know technology, so you must know something. And then the technical people would would you know, and and, and I really enjoyed being in that nexus between the two, between the business and the technical. And so that was my initial work, and it was for a financial services firm and they were very methodical about how to do the work. So I learned how to do project management and that kind of thing in a very methodical, thoughtful way.
Speaker 3:And then my husband and I decided to move to Seattle Washington to make sure we could hike and backpack more in our lifetimes and I ended up landing in a law firm and it was a high-tech kind of firm.
Speaker 3:They did a lot of high-tech business and I often say I grew up in law firms and what that means is that in a law firm environment you've got a lot of really highly paid, very smart people who are trained to argue. They are not trained necessarily about collaboration and all of that. And initially it was in the 90s, so that industry was going through a bunch of mergers and acquisitions and I was in information systems and my initial job was multifaceted. But I became the first project manager because I got in there and I was like this is total chaos, we're throwing in systems and things are failing. Manager. Because I got in there and I was like this is total chaos, we're throwing in systems and things are failing, and you know there isn't any planning really happening because it's. You know, this attorney wants this, this attorney group wants this and we'd be like, okay, we'll do that, okay, we'll do that.
Speaker 3:And then we blow up things and I just felt like this, that's a rough environment, this doesn't work. And so I you know my boss asked when we, when she took over the role, what do you think we need? And I said we need project management. She said, okay, do you want to do that? And I was like, okay.
Speaker 3:So I, I became the first project manager and and then slowly worked, worked with senior leaders and all that um, to have that become more of a standard practice. So we were kind of every year iterating the process. So, you know, shouldn't we think about what projects we're trying to do to achieve what business outcomes, to get to the right budget, instead of just throwing numbers at a budget and calling it good, you know? So we would get more and more kind of methodical, but at the same time, things were moving, moving fast and so so that that structure was really foundational in that, you know, we had 10 different offices. We are merging and acquiring firms all the time. We are bringing different cultures together.
Speaker 3:My responsibility was often about bringing systems together or rolling out new systems and then getting people trained on them, but I was in a role with no power. You know, nobody reported to me at that point and I had to build relationships with a managing partner and the office administrator in all these different firms. I had to build relationships with a managing partner and the office administrator in all these different firms and so I had to start to understand power dynamics. And in a law firm, unlike other more traditional structures, just because you have chief behind your title, so you're the chief human resources officer. If one of the attorneys brings in a lot of money and they don't want to do what you're recommending they do, they just won't do it, and then they figure you're going to be gone in a couple of years anyway. So whatever, and so it really was a fertile ground for learning about relational dynamics and power structures and
Speaker 3:all that. And so then fast forward. I have my twins and I've said to my boss I don't think I want to work full time and she decided to add a middle tier of managers because she had, you know, 30 direct reports or something. So I became a manager and she said well, we don't have any management training, but you could work with this coach. And I was like seriously, you're going to pay for a work therapist for me? I don't even know what that means. You know, this is 1999. So this is a long time ago and time ago, and I'm a middle manager.
Speaker 3:At that point I couldn't believe they were doing this and it was great. And she really helped me understand like this is a new job, how do I? I was holding people small. You know, I was going from being a peer to being a supervisor. I was trying to make things happen in a world where I still didn't have much power because I still wasn't. You know, I was an expense I'm not a you know resource or I wasn't a revenue source. An expense, I'm not a you know resource or I wasn't a revenue source.
Speaker 3:And so so I learned a lot from her and then ended up working with her as a life coach as well, and she really helped me ask those bigger questions what's the life you want? You know, how are you doing the kinds of things you want? And in having those bigger conversations about what I really value in this world, what I really want in this world, it it made Brad and me start to have conversations about. You know, we loved Seattle. We loved our life out there. We had great friends, all sorts of things. We both had these big jobs and it was a little bit out of alignment with my values. I really value family, all our families. Back here, I really wanted to be able to raise my own kids and I was working, you know, 60 hours a week, even though it was over four days, you know. It just like our life wasn't working, even though it looked like it was working. And so we took a leap, moved back to Minnesota with three kids under six and no jobs, because we just wanted to see what we, you know, create the world we wanted back here. And so it was.
Speaker 3:So I contracted with law firms. I was a little bit plug and play because I could do IT and project management and everybody needed that. And then at one point, when my youngest got into school, I reached out to my former coach and said you know I need a few sessions with you. I love the freedom I've got right now, but I'm working for a firm and it's kind of painful work, it's not a great environment, I'm not hired in at the right level, I can't work with the leadership. I'm hired in an IT and I had one session with her and I was like oh, I want to be a coach, I want to do what you're doing. And at that point she was only coaching leaders of startup tech firms and helping them create their cultures and helping them. And I was just like that's a job that sounds fantastic, because having lived through so many cultures and used law firm offices.
Speaker 3:It's like the leader has so much impact on how the environment feels, how engaged people are, all of that and I was like, if I can help make that better, that's what I want to do. And so that kicked off my coaching journey, and that was about 2010. And then I'm always learning more. So I got certified and then moved through a number of different trainings.
Speaker 2:At that point, oh well, I mean again, it's so that you just to me it's like you followed what was next in life and tried and followed your nose. That's kind of what you did. I mean that's what we all do. I mean great, greatest set of plans, long-term plans. Sometimes they can work out. I mean, some people want to be a doctor. They decide to become a doctor. It happens.
Speaker 2:But it's also noticing like you work at a law firm and all of a sudden project management was clearly needed and they said yes. And then the challenges you ran and I can't imagine some of the challenges you ran into to try to manage integrating project management into a law firm, which is probably the toughest environment to organize of all environments. Maybe, maybe, maybe some of the early days in the big four that was like that, but it that must've been very challenging. Like what are you asking me to do that for? I would imagine you heard that a few times.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I really yeah it. It was, like I said, really fertile training ground. I didn't know what I was training for, but had I not worked with that coach, I would have because Simon Enneagram's free, we can talk more about that I would have kept doing the next thing that they wanted from me. You know I would have kept. Okay, you want me to?
Speaker 2:do this bigger job.
Speaker 3:Okay, you want me to do this. Okay, if you see that for me, I'll keep doing it. And that, that um engagement with her was the first time I was like, oh wait, I've got some choice here. And how do I start to really look at what do I want to do in this life and what kind of life I want to have? And that was a pivotal moment because I would have just stayed on the track until I burned myself out. I would have burned myself out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll definitely get it. I want to go in and talk about your Enneagram type and what you've learned along the journey of that, but let's step back into now the work that you're doing today. We're going to step onto that for just a little bit and you know your primary role is going into helping organizations and I would say, at the highest level would be fair to say executive leadership and team dynamics and effectiveness and performance. So and I'm asking this question when I ask this question for executives that are listening I'm asking you to listen to the answer from a perspective of how you approach stakeholders, how your team approaches stakeholders. So I'm asking you just to understand how Sarah does it, but I also want it can be very instructive, because in our work as consultants, we have to do what I'm going to ask you to do and you have a particular way of doing it.
Speaker 2:So, with that caveat, when your clients come to you, how do you determine how to best serve them, how to best approach and engage with them? They already say we got the money here, we got the pot of money, we heard great things about you. I think this is what we need. Can you come out and help us do that, which is not unusual, right? So, with that being said, what do you do in that situation to make sure you're on the right trajectory with the client?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, what I find is that people ask for what they know to ask for. So they might ask you know, do you do culture assessments? Do you do strategic planning? We think we need this, and so the first conversation is really just my listening and asking questions and my job, and it's not unlike one on one coaching. It's like I'm trying to get at what's really the ask here. What are the, what are the outcomes? They're looking for what's not working? Because if they're reaching out, something's not working and what they're thinking is the thing that's not working may or may not be the thing. What they're thinking is the thing that's not working may or may not be the thing. And so the first conversation is really my trying to expand their thinking about what are the possibilities here Are we talking about? Is this an employee engagement problem? Is this a conflict problem? Is this actually it's not?
Speaker 3:You know, because as they're talking, I'm getting a picture of what's happening and so I might start to say so it sounds like there's been a big disruption in the industry. You've got a brand new team, 14 other things are happening, you know. So I'll kind of paint the picture back to them and they'll start to go yeah, yep, that's Yep, those are the things, and it's like okay, well so, and then for me, I work again because I work in a systems context and I'm using an adaptive approach. What that means is, you know, it really matters how you enter the system, and so I'm always entering the system in some way to get more information about the whole. And so that might mean, if it's a senior team, I might say okay, how about if we start with interviews? Let me interview everybody for a half hour, for 45 minutes. I'll ask them what's working, what's not.
Speaker 3:I'll bring the themes back and the first session will be I'm bringing themes and you're reflecting. You know what do I have right, what do I not have right? And the goal I always have for senior teams is you want to be having the right conversations at the right time with the right skill level, and often what's happening is there's a bunch of stuff happening under the surface. Information the system needs that's not getting to the surface for whatever reason. Or, um, yeah, it's, it's often something like that.
Speaker 3:So I uh. So what I'll say to the um leader when I'm coming in is I'll say let's start with, say, three sessions or four sessions, based on whatever they've told me, and I'll say you know, we'll do this first session, I'll bring back the themes and then out of that something new will have emerged. And then you and I will align and we'll talk about what's needed next, and then I'll come in and then we'll do the next thing, and so I'm not coming with, we do this, and then we do this and then we do this, because part of the systems model is the wisdom exists in the system, so they have the wisdom. I'm not bringing the.
Speaker 3:here's the solution. You know, they know how to run their company better than I do. What I am bringing is from a systems coaching lens. It's about revealing the system so it sees itself more clearly. So I'm trying to help them see the patterns that exist in systems that develop over time, some of which are getting outcomes they want, some of them that are getting outcomes that they don't want. And once they start to see the patterns, then they'll go oh, we can't do that anymore. And so and that's why I'm saying we're building the skill at the same time because you also have you know if you have 10 people in a room.
Speaker 3:Some of them want to go directly at conflict, some of them want to avoid conflict at all costs. Some of them are going to abdicate, some, you know, people are depending on their roles, depending on their sense of power, depending on their personality. You know, all those things could be happening, and my job is to help them get the right information out. So I do a lot of normalizing and a lot of saying well. So it sounds like you have this pattern that when this happens, then this happens, and then the outcome you get is this is that right? And I may or may not be right, but either way they'll. They'll say oh yeah, that's exactly it or no, it's actually this.
Speaker 3:And then it's like all right, now, now we see better what's happening. So then what, now that you see something? Now how do you want to respond and what's going to bring that forward? And so usually in the sessions we're generating a lot of information and then by the end of the session, I'm trying to get you know, I'm getting to. So what now? What's going to move this team forward? What's going to deepen the trust and forward the action at the same time in a way that gets better outcomes. Did I answer the question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did a great job and I want to just you know kind of what I'm hearing is number one. You get them to slow down, step back and look at the systemic connections to what their proposed problem is or whatever area you're going to go, and you then go out and say, okay, I know enough to be dangerous because I don't know your business Right, and I don't know enough about this dynamic.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So I go out and I talk to the people that are most involved in that dynamic and moving it forward or dealing with it, so you get the result you want, yep. And then I'm saying here's what I heard, yep, what we all should be doing. You were listening, yep, which is here's what I understood. And I would imagine that when you do that well, the buy-in about what you do gets strengthened because people feel heard, they have confidence that you could do something about it and therefore, all of a sudden, they get more excited about the potential. And are there cases in which there's some direction away from the original requests that they made that you say, well, really, we can't, although you want us to do a cultural engagement survey and do something about that. We better start over here, because if we do that, we might miss some piece. That would actually slow us down.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and that's why I try and stay up front when I'm designing the engagement, with them saying, ok, I really hear that this is what you think you want and if that's the right solution, that's what we'll do. But let's start here, let's enter here. After that first session, we'll have a lot better information and that that might be the right next step, or it might be the fourth step step, you know, and?
Speaker 3:and so if, if I say that, then they don't feel like I'm doing a bait and switch, you know, because I'm not right, like you know, how do we, how do we get to what's actually needed, given where you guys are, you know, and what's happening in your industry?
Speaker 2:and that's what the best coaches and consultants do. They are of service to the need and they're able to adapt to the need as you say you do. It's also. I find it interesting. It's kind of service to the need and they're able to adapt to the need, as you say you do. It's also I find it interesting. It's kind of similar to be like life is a big system, right, and what we talked about, about our circuitous route.
Speaker 2:I don't know exactly what step two or three is, but I know if we do this, we're going to have a lot clearer idea what to do next. So there's again, while I understand, long-term we want to get to certain results. What we have to do is get traction in a certain way with moving towards that with the right first step, and you take a lot of time to get by it, and that makes complete sense to me. That's great. And again, I think that that's something that leaders can do better and their teams can do better, and organizations to do that needs assessment, if you will.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, you know, executives feel they have to know the answer right away yeah, rather than saying, you know, I'm not sure. I do understand your organization. They understand more of the business than we do when we walk in the door, and so they're also. That's a blessing and a curse, right when you're trying to assess what to do to have impact, but it's something that you know that a lot of executives and their teams could deploy as a practice. So appreciate you sharing that and you work with you know you say something good.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was just going to say I lean into Jennifer Garvey Berger's research on complex systems and complexity and leading in complexity and her work really points to you know leaders need to listen to learn, not teach. You know like they're there. It's a different approach to leading when what you're dealing with is complexity and not just complicated. You know when the variables are all changing and the people are all changing and you know that's complexity and it is a different stance and it's not what feels like traditional leadership, because it feels like you're supposed to know the way and it's a very different approach. But her research on leading in complexity has really informed how I approach this, like how do you listen to learn? How do you get the right information integrated into the organization so the decisions you're making are based on the right data?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, and I've talked to I've had technology CIOs on the show before and who do complex change systems with you know, incorporating IAI. They say the same thing. Their first job is to go around and like I know nothing, and I'm going to go around and find out what everybody else knows and I'm going to listen and learn, and so, again, this is a principle of operating that serves us well in relationships, right?
Speaker 2:Sometimes, I know what I think is better for my partner before she even tells me what's going on. So I know I get into trouble with that oh absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you work with a lot of teams facing disruption and complexity, and I think you shared a couple of themes in what I'm looking at. What themes do you notice in leadership or in teams when things aren't going well that they need to look at, not like detailed themes, but overarching themes that are getting in their way, and how do you help leaders and teams course correct in those themes? Or it's maybe a big question. Answer it any way, you think I ask it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, the way I think about it is, if things are going well and everybody's making money, the cracks aren't revealed. But it's in moments of disruption. You know. Either you know revenues have fallen, or you know senior partners left, or you're having a bunch. You know you're having a lot of turnover. You know those are all signals from the system is how I think about it. And so that that reveals that something's not working. It's like OK, how do we understand what's not working? And I think the biggest signal people skip is emotional stuff, because it's uncomfortable and we're not supposed to talk about emotional work.
Speaker 3:People were, during that sudden shock there was so much fear and so much grief and so much pain. And then leaders are in this situation. They're like, how am I supposed to respond to this? And then, as we came through to the other side and things felt normal again, things had changed pretty significantly. And it's hard to see that. And so I think a lot about how do you build leaders who are more comfortable dealing with the emotional field, which means not overreacting to it but also not ignoring it. And what I mean by emotional field is you know you walk into a room and the way I'm wired, you know you can feel it Like, wow, it's heavy in here, people are angry.
Speaker 3:People are defended, people are like you can feel that stuff, and I think leaders often go to oh, I better make that better, and then they'll start talking, or they'll start. They'll decide that they need to do something to make everybody feel better, rather than saying wow, there's a lot of heaviness in here today. It feels like a thunderstorm just went through. What's going on? And if people feel safe enough, if the environment is, you know, if there's psychological safety, then people might start to say well, you know, that person got fired last week. There hasn't been good communication about it, so my whole team is really scared and they brought that to me this morning and now I'm feeling responsible. It's like, oh, good information, you, you know, but they got the good information because they noticed, you know, that the, the feeling was off, um, and so getting so for leaders to be yeah. So I again I'm going back to what your question was about. What are the themes that I see in disruption? It's like disruption reveals what's already there in a bigger way.
Speaker 2:And then people with disruption, it's like, shines the light on the issues, right yeah?
Speaker 3:exactly. It exposes things. And then people might overreact to what's being exposed because it's you know it's vulnerable. Like shoot, we thought these things were working, but it turns out like if you narrow it down to a partnership, it turns out, yeah, we haven't been managing our money well, or we haven't made, or I gave you too much power and I've been too absent. Okay, how do we deal with that? In a way that doesn't mean we have to end the partnership, but it does mean yep, there was something not working. What do we do now? And so those themes of like what are the things that get exposed when there's disruption and how do we handle them?
Speaker 3:Again, the reason I talk about systems so much is if you're a systems inspired leader, you just take all of those as signals and it's just information. It's not. I did something wrong, you did something wrong. We got to. You know, get out of this situation as fast as possible. You slow down to go. What are the signals saying? What does this mean? What's needed from me now? Where do I need more information? You know, how do we bring people together to solve whatever's emerging here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it sounds to me, going back to the leadership circle, kind of the reactiveness of the organization. Where it reacts becomes obvious, right, yep. Where it's off reacts becomes obvious, right, yeah, where it, where it's where it's off balance becomes obvious, yep. So that the and that at the undercurrent of that is emotional triggering that sends people into survival mechanisms, yep.
Speaker 2:You know, we're not always our best when we're contracted and survival mechanism and and usually that's happening when the ground is shaking Because it feels like the saber-toothed tiger walked in the room and I've got to save my life and that's a little bit extreme, but the idea is that in that situation you can see the dysfunctions emerge that you point to or, a lot of times, are emotional reaction to each other. They certainly have, you know, reacts to responses to, maybe inequality in power, or we're not taking care of our money well, or we really have been working our team really hard and not really taking care of them All the. Those are the kinds of things that boil up at that time. And something you said about it I want to follow up at the at that time, and something you said about it I don't want to follow up on is okay, you've got all these triggered executives and they're emotionally reacting and you're going to say, listen, you got to. You got to.
Speaker 2:You know Bob Newhart said stop that. You know, have you ever saw him do that video? Like, just stop that, you don't do that, so that. So so what do you? What are some of the things you do to help leaders stem the tide of that reactivity and learn how to be in a more centered, creative, attentive place yeah, um, well, what I'm learning you know each time.
Speaker 3:You know I keep learning about. You know I'm seeding things in earlier, so now I'll enter earlier with normalizing things, like you know, because we can, and depending on the team and how open they are to different kinds of ideas. But we know that if people are in their survival brain or the emotional brain, they aren't making their best decisions. We need them to be in the executive state of their brain, you know, and so I'll just normalize, like, as leaders, we want you to spend as much time there as possible, you know, in leadership circle profile terms, that's, you know, be in your creative state, not your reactive state. And so then, for people to understand, like you know, when we're in that emotional or survival brain, we don't know that we are lots of times we think we're being highly functional, you know. And so, starting to help them understand how they can tell what are the early warning signs, um, and then and then how do? What do they need to do to return to an executive state? Because if a leader walks into a room and they're in their survival room, they might take everybody out, you know, because they've got the most power, they're reactive and anxiety spreads through a system really, really, really rapidly. And so for them to understand, you know.
Speaker 3:So, for individual leaders, I think a lot about how do you know when you're in the wrong brain state, what are the signals from your body, from your heart, from your brain? You know, from your environment that you can pay attention to. And then, once you realize that's where you are, what do you need to do to get back to your grounded state? And you know, is that about practicing mindfulness? Is it taking a walk outside? Is it like hitting a baseball bat for a while to get the energy out? You know different people need different things, but I try and normalize like this is what we do as humans. You know a threat comes in and we react until we can start to catch like, oh, I'm feeling threatened, how do I slow it down enough to then make a choice about how I respond? And that's that's a big move. And so I love that you talk about inner, inner to outer relationship or leadership, because it's that internal state. If we have mastery of that, you know everything.
Speaker 2:Everything that comes after, it's going to go better if we can get back to a grounded state. Yeah, and there's various. You say there's various ways to do that and certainly the Enneagram can help we're going to talk about. Talk about your tools now, like can help with understanding where what you know, if I'm an aid, it's like I'm losing control. I try to exert more control in that moment, you know.
Speaker 2:You know, as a three, I'm, like, you know, hunker down and just check off the next box. You know, whenever it is, you know, as a four, I'm going to go into my imagination and start, like you know, imagining the worst case scenario. So there's different ways that we do that and understand that those tools help. That you know. And one of the things you're certified you're certified in the Integrative 9 Enneagram and also the Leadership Circle, both of which, I appreciate, are tools that I use. I love them. Can you share your perspective, maybe related to what you were just saying, how these tools work together to help leaders unlock their potential, and maybe share any examples where you made significant impact by integrating those tools? If you had that opportunity to do so? Yeah, fair, when you had that opportunity to do so.
Speaker 3:So the way I think about it now again, because I think about the systems, one so much is the Enneagram helps reveal your inner operating system really clearly. And so as soon as someone lands in their type. Yeah, and what I love about integrative the integrative solutions tool gives you your type, which kind of breaks traditional Enneagram standards, but it's highly accurate. It's highly validated. I'm a big fan of highly accurate and validated tools, and so people generally get their report.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's, it's really nice. I don't need to do the research, but I'm glad they are researched because I want it to be. You know, I want to move the needle on things, but with the Enneagram it's such a quick way to see like, oh yeah, these are my gifts. Oh, yes, I do overuse those gifts and then they become liabilities. Oh, these are, you know. So it just gives you a lot of information about and I think about.
Speaker 3:I love Beatrice Chestnut's metaphor of the Enneagram is kind of describing your acorn self. Yeah, and your acorn self, you know, and most of us stop there. We believe we're the acorn, you know we've got this hard shell around how we walk through the world. And then the idea is, once you can start to see your type, you can relax the acorn, you know, it's like putting it underground and letting the shell dissolve and then you can become an oak tree. And I often say to clients we're going for the oak tree, like we don't want to hang out at your type, we want to expand. And so the Enneagram really helps them understand like, oh, under stress, here's what eights tend to do. Can you see that in yourself? You know, where is that a huge strength. And where is that becoming a liability and how do we start to understand that?
Speaker 3:So I often enter with the Enneagram with individuals and with teams, because it's a way to be seen, it's a way to talk about yourself, it's a way to understand stuff and so, and it provides foundational language. So when I'm working with a team then they have ways to talk about their different types. It looked like we had to reconnect there for a minute, so um, so anyway. So the Enneagram I think of as internal and the leadership circle profile shows a lot of that stuff, uh, a lot of the internal states as well, with the reactive parts. I'm doing this because of the circle Um, but it also the leadership circle profile also helps. You see, now, in this system, how am I perceived, you know so, with the person I report to, with my peers, with my direct reports, with other stakeholders, how am I showing up? And so now I've got a lot of information about my own system and the system and how I'm perceived within the systems I operate, and so combined that really gives the individual and the team a lot of information about the kinds of things that might be getting in the way.
Speaker 3:So when I enter organizations I often, if I'm not doing interviews first, I'll start with the Enneagram, because that's a way, whether I'm working with an individual leader or a team, for them to start to understand their internal operating system and so they can see their individual strengths and where they overuse their strengths and they become liabilities and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:So I think about the Enneagram as a really quick way to understand our internal operating system, and then, with the Leadership Circle Profile, what I love about that tool is it helps you understand how you're perceived within the systems you operate. And so you get feedback from your boss's boss and your boss and your peers and your direct reports and anybody, any other stakeholders, and you start to see oh, you know, this group thinks I'm a great decision maker. You know I'm very decisive. This group doesn't think I'm decisive, and so it doesn't mean you're decisive or not. It does mean you're I'm very decisive.
Speaker 3:This group doesn't think I'm decisive, and so it doesn't mean you're decisive or not. It does mean you're perceived differently in different spaces. And then we have more information about huh, where does it matter and how are you showing up differently in these different groups, and so the combination of those two. You know, while the leadership circle profile, I think, does a great job of helping you understand where you go and your reactive, the Enneagram actually creates a path for okay, so when I go there, what's the best way for me to get out and how do I do that? And so I love working with the combination with both individuals and teams when I have the opportunity.
Speaker 2:And Bob baked the Enneagram almost understanding into the profile, amongst many other things. But I do like that that the individual pathway can actually make more sense of what I have to do about moving from high protective or high you know control towards the other in that natural direction. What do I have to do around that? So, yeah, I love the combination of the tools as well. Now I'm going to take this to get more personal. It's going to relate to something you said before. This is a question I've been waiting for. I'm enjoying the whole conversation, but I love this question.
Speaker 2:I know that you're a type three on the Enneagram, known as the Achiever, and, to be quite frank, sarah, I have found that the type three, the achiever, is the most challenging one to work with. And you're different. You've developed and integrated to a degree which I think you've done. That integration Because, as you know, achievers are so focused on the goals and the checkboxes and the shiny bubble you even talked about. Your coach helps you with this. So you know, for all those type threes and high achievers out there, what was your journey to integrating, to being more vulnerable, to being more open to the internal world, to be in touch with your emotions and your feelings. What was that path for you? Can you share a little bit about that and what you would recommend to other high achievers, if you have some thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have the fortunate, or challenging thing in that my closest sister she's 18 months older than I am is a therapist, and so there was a moment when she was visiting me in Seattle and I was up in the middle of the night worrying about a mistake I had made and feeling the pressure of the world like the entire firm success is sitting on my shoulders, and whether I not do this right thing tomorrow. And she was looking at me and she just said you understand, that's out of whack, right?
Speaker 3:and I'm like nope nope it isn't I absolutely you know. Now I think about it.
Speaker 2:I was in my full-on three trance yes, yes, that's exactly what I was thinking you know, threes believe.
Speaker 3:But I have to do that, but I have to do it. There is no choice here. This is so important. And she literally said, David, you are calling in sick tomorrow and I am calling a therapist for you. And I was like, nope, I am fine, I am going to work, we are not going to do that. And she had a little bit more credibility in that her husband had just died at 30 from a brain tumor the previous year and so I knew she had wisdom that went well beyond her age. And so there was. But it really took her saying you are basically not seeing things clearly here, the way you're responding to your work environment isn't good for you and you need an intervention.
Speaker 3:And you know I foughtder and fodder and fodder and then I called in sick and surprisingly enough, the firm didn't collapse the next day and actually no one cared that much that I was gone. You know it's like, you know it was out of proportion, but that kind of got me to a therapist. And the thing is, you know, so I had all sorts of grief. You know my dad had died when I was 13, suddenly from a heart attack. Sitting next to her in a confirmation class. My mom was showing signs of Alzheimer's by the time I was a sophomore in high school and couldn't work anymore. I was the last one at home, you know, having to be the one who held it all together. I thought, and I was responsible for everything, and as a three, I kept my image up and so I kept doing well in school and I was doing all the things I was expected to do, and I was so scared, and I didn't know I was scared, you know. I just kept going, Like I would talk about it, like, yeah, my mom can't call me and she can't drive anymore, but that's okay, you know, that's. Everybody's got their stuff, you know.
Speaker 3:And so it wasn't until my sister made me see a therapist and the therapist and the first thing she said, Sarah, it seems like you've got a lot of grief, a lot of stuff to work through, but you don't have a strong sense of who you are at your core, Like you don't have a strong sense of self, and I felt the truth of that hit so hard. I was what? 30? And I was humiliated and at the same time like, oh yeah, that all feels true, Okay, and so that got me into therapy. You know my early 30s. And then, at the same time, then started working with this coach. And had I known the Enneagram? This is why I'm so committed, David had I known the Enneagram in my 20s, I would have already known what the path was.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean I could have followed it, but I at least would have known, you still might have hit some of the same walls. Right, yeah, you still might have hit some of the same walls Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not like it's magic, but it does start to normalize. In general, threes are going to cut off from their own feelings, they're going to try to adapt to what everybody else wants from them and they're going to completely disconnect from what they actually want. And so that, um once. Then I got the Enneagram loans at, you know, I don't know 50.
Speaker 3:It's like, oh, no wonder that was my crisis my series of crises, you know it was all about becoming what people expected from me, and my first enneagram teacher said sarah, we don't get threes in here very often. How did you get here? It was like I've heard the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're not wrong, so, so, so. So what do you do when you now run into a hard charging three? Yeah, how do you well, how do you well? I mean because the thing is, I find that if you can get a three to get into a learning mode that's related to their career development or something that's important to them that's sometimes what I do, yeah, and then that over time they're more of a slow fuse yeah, that over time we can get. Okay, what are you noticing about that? Yeah, maybe you should start some journaling. I take baby steps. What would you say when you're running into a hard-charging achiever about how to get them to slow down and self-reflect, which is one of the most difficult things for them to do, I think, sometimes? What do you typically do Now that you've been through the journey, exactly?
Speaker 3:It does help that I can say, yep, I'm a three too, so I understand, you know. But but if they land in their type and you know, what I know now is threes want to be seen as successful, they want out there, they, they need someone to see them.
Speaker 3:They don't need you to say, wow, you did that and that and that, but they do need to say, wow, you've worked hard, you're holding a lot, you're doing that and that and that. And so I just got on a call with a new client today and you know she's telling me about her world. And then I asked if she already knew her type. And she did, because this organization happens to use Enneagram a lot. And so then she starts to paint her world and I just kept saying, wow, that is a lot. So you have already been promoted three times. You haven't even been there 18 months. The organization's been through all these major reorgs. Your scope of responsibility is really, really big and they're asking you to focus on the thing you don't know how to do. Yet. That's got to be really hard. And she got really emotional. You know threes are emotional types. They don't want to be. They're really good at shoving it down.
Speaker 3:And so she got emotional and it goes right to embarrassment Like I shouldn't be emotion, or it goes to shame. And I said, you know the emotion is welcome here. Actually, that's information you need to have, and as a three, the more we can tap into that. It doesn't mean you have to express it everywhere, but you and I need you to have the space to be able to get in touch with it, because that anger, that fear, that grief is giving you good information that actually your system probably needs from you. And so then, so I normalize it, I make it okay and then say and my fear for you, you know, for threes, the risk is you're, everybody else is going to see your potential and you're going to do what they expect from you and you're not going to do what you want. And so part of my job as your coach is to help you get in touch with what is it?
Speaker 3:you want. So I'm very much reinforcing. They're not failing, you know. They're actually trying to do right by everybody and they're trying to create good outcomes for everybody and that's great. But that does get in the way of them, you know, actually keeping themselves in the mix, and so that starts to help. And then then the sooner I can say we're actually going to get in touch with you know, use your information, you're, get in touch with your emotions. The Enneagram actually gave me courage and I'll make a sweeping generalization, especially with male threes, because for men in our culture being in touch with emotion is that much more kind of taboo in some ways.
Speaker 3:and so for me to be able to say you have brain intelligence, you have heart intelligence, we know emotional intelligence matter and you have somatic intelligence and we want to have access to all three. So, you know, a male client might say, um, or either, you know, I'm really you know, I'm really anxious about this, and they're, they're telling me all these things and I'll say, okay, let's slow down for a minute. You know, I'm really anxious about this and they're telling me all these things and I'll say, okay, let's slow down for a minute.
Speaker 3:If that anxiety is information, let's tap into it. You know, is the anxiety really about disappointment? Is it anger? Is it because that's going to help you understand, you know? And so it gave me more confidence as a coach to push people in ways that they wouldn't choose, Because threes will always be like look over here, look how successful I am. They're not going to say yeah, what I want to look at is where I'm feeling scared and incompetent. So we have to, you know create a safe way to do that.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful, well said. Thank you for that. Well, a couple more questions to kind of move towards the close here. But one's it's kind of stepping into that individual picture to the big picture. I think we all wish we could have a crystal ball right now to see what the future holds. I mean, we're afraid to look at the crystal ball, I don't know. But given the craziness in the world today and what's happening, it's almost like organizations are almost like a safe place. I can go from the craziness in a certain way.
Speaker 2:There are myriad ways that things could unfold in the world and business, but if you get a hazard to guess, what do you believe organizations need to do to attend to some of that and to continue to engage in their mission, keep their head down, focus, while also acknowledging the impact it's having on everybody right now, what are some things you believe organizations are going to have to begin doing or do more of to deal with the franticness of the world, while still be able to maintain their focus on trying to create value to their customers and to maintain their talent?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, great questions. Yeah, I mean I think a lot about you know. The reason I love to work in organizations and with leaders is because we spend an enormous amount of time in those places and I feel like in intact teams, you know, that's the reason I like to work with intact teams is like that. Those are the people you're spending the most time with and if, in that environment, you can build skills around conflict, you can build self-awareness, you can learn together, you can normalize that adult development continues, you know, that's part of what I loved about the leadership circle profile when they said, you know, if they're in adult development theory, say there are five levels, 85% of us stop at level three and I just keep thinking the problems are getting more and more complicated.
Speaker 3:We need more leaders at four and five, and what we know, you know, to be able to develop like that is we as individuals need practices that help us get back to an executive state, which means being able to tap into our hearts and, you know, trust the information we're getting there, be able to slow down enough to sense our bodies, you know, and taking the somatic note, so that our brains are spacious and thoughtful. And so if within teams, I also, you know it's the Lencioni model or whoever you want to think about, but high, high trust and high performance. You know, being able to create an environment where people feel seen and valued, in a sense of belonging. You know we all need those as humans. And so I think, going forward with the technology that's rapidly changing, it's like we need to tap more into our humanity and expand our consciousness, and so that means, you know, again, the reason I use the Enneagram is it normalizes, like we need access to all of our intelligence.
Speaker 3:And I think, as leaders, you know, we know there's research now Anxiety spreads through a system. You know fear spreads through a system, and if we as leaders can't, you know, tap into our peers or have the support we need to go oh, wait, a minute. Of course there's a lot of fear right now because this big thing happened out in the world and we don't have control over that. So how do we acknowledge that? Not make it bigger than it is, but also not step over it. And then you know what are the conversations that we need to allow and not be afraid of, but allow so we can get some of the emotion and energy out and help people stay connected and so that again, conflict becomes generative when it's an indication something's not working but we've got the skills to deal with it, as opposed to conflict being dangerous and causing harm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I say it's well said. I mean it's like there is so much greater capacity. So now I talk about we have three brains. We've got the head brain, the heart brain, the gut brain.
Speaker 2:Right, and it's almost like, in order for you to get connected to your heart, it paradoxically, you have to be in your executive function and more aware, self-aware and attentive to the moment. That is actually the first step. If you just try to go into your heart without doing that, it can be too dangerous, too scary. Yeah, you have to start, because if you're, but when you're in a centered state, it's you just naturally can drop in there and and that sometimes requires some healing to do that absolutely and and and coaching, and and and having somebody like you or me to work with people or somebody else skilled. That saves so much time and suffering and it ignites, as you say. There's these other levels of consciousness that are available to us and I would say I've talked to some people I've been fortunate to meet that are at a very high level of that. They say but wait, there's more.
Speaker 2:It just doesn't stop there. There's nobody discovered what's possible, it just continues to expand beyond that.
Speaker 2:The capacity of human beings, and that's why I do the work I do and part of what I wanted to bring to this the capacity of human beings. The greater your consciousness in a certain way, the less you have to sweat life. You just know how to do the solution, your consciousness in a certain way. Unless you have to sweat life, you just know how to do. The solution is right there at the moment. And let's go back to your first conversation, your first comment. Just let's get to the first base and let's figure out if we can understand what the issue is, that we need to stand on to look for second base, and it really is a lot simpler and less complex. And in a complex world we have to become simpler. It doesn't that sound. It does that probably doesn't sound right, but I mean, that's true yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, anything else you you want to add or say as a final comments for being on today yeah, I think the the piece.
Speaker 3:I didn't say directly, is you know, it's like we have emotional intelligence and all that. Now I feel like the next frontier is relational systems intelligence, like there is wisdom in systems.
Speaker 2:Yeah, say more about that.
Speaker 3:Well, there's wisdom in relationships, there's wisdom in systems, and when we can start to trust that, I mean, to your point, that things get easier. Like if I'm in my three trance, I think everything's up to me and guess what? I'll create a bunch of work for myself and everybody else. When I'm in that other, more integrated state, then I'm calmer. And then for a three, that becomes about like being the orchestra conductor and trusting that I'm part of a group. Everybody's bringing wisdom. It might not be me that brings it, it might be someone else. And so how do I start to create the space so solutions emerge, rather than thinking it's up to me, and that's what I think leaders are called to do. It's like how do I create the space so that people can bring their full talented giftedness to the table and then trust that solutions emerge when we learn how to do that.
Speaker 3:But that's really scary because it's you know. And so it's also building right, building the ability to be with the uncertainty, be with not knowing. And you know, I think we're going to have to expand our capacity to be with not knowing. You know, if I take this step and I don't know what's going to happen, four steps down. Isn't that dangerous? And it's like no, actually trust. Your first step breathe, stop, get more information. Next step you know that's the emergent solutions and I think leaders need to get more comfortable with that.
Speaker 2:Right, being that known and it's kind of trusting that again, as you say, what needs to happen next will come to you, not to say you don't have moments of planning and analyzing and data crunching Right, that's valuable. But if we get fixated on that, it's like getting fixated on your type we get locked in and we miss a lot around it.
Speaker 3:You miss the bigger part. Yeah, you miss the other information. The other signals yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, thank you so much, sarah, for sharing your insights and all that you shared today. It really was an integrated conversation. I felt like we went a lot of places, that we came back to what we started with. So I appreciate what you brought to the table today and I know our listeners gained a lot of your story and your expertise, so thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, david, I've really enjoyed it. It's fun to talk to somebody who sees the world in such a similar way, and so that's a real gift. Thank you.
Speaker 2:That is, yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, to everybody listening out there, thank you for joining us on this journey. Your time and attention are truly appreciated. If today's conversation resonated with you, I'd be grateful if you share it with others. You could benefit colleagues, friends or anyone seeking to lead with more impact, especially in these crazy disruptive times that you're looking for support around that. If you're looking for support around that, I think that we benefit specifically from this show, and others will be done.
Speaker 2:You can catch this episode and all others via YouTube, or you can listen to it on Apple Podcasts, spotify, amazon Music or 14 other podcasting platforms. The link to the full list of the platforms is below in the description of this audio or video version. And, as we close, remember what incredible value you bring when you invest in the growth and development of yourself and those around you. As an executive, you touch hundreds of lives over the course of your career, and when you do so, that as a leader, it truly changes beyond the results you produce for your organization. It truly changes the world and makes the world a better place. So, until we meet again, keep leading purposefully and creating meaningful value in your organizations, and I'm wishing you a fantastic rest of your day. This is David Craig-Utz, leadership Alchemist, signing off for now, until next time.