How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Tomasz Herok on working undercover in factory farms

• Amy Odene & James Ozden

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Description: Tomasz Herok recently spent over 5 months working undercover on British factory farms, as part of an investigation by Open Cages, the UK branch of Anima International.

[Trigger warning: graphic descriptions of animals suffering on factory farms throughout the episode]

In this episode we understand the complexities involved in being an undercover investigator, what Tomasz’s role on the farm entailed during his time there and how he personally deals with the trauma presented. We also talk through the campaign that the footage was used for and what Tomasz needed to capture in order for this to be a success. 

An intense but incredibly in-depth look at the role of undercover investigators and what they witness on today's factory farms.

Relevant links to things mentioned throughout the show:

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00:00

Tom


After it was raining, I remember we spent a lot of time removing frogs and snails from around those sheds because she told me that when she steps on a snail, or a frog, or runs one over with a car, that ruins her day, she just feels terrible. She absolutely loved frogs… yeah, personally, I am that into frogs. It wasn't something that would cross my mind to just make sure that all frogs are safe. And she definitely saw this entire thing as a massive moral problem. She was kind of skeptical in terms of whether anything can be done about it, but she would sometimes tell me how she tries to get her family to eat more vegan products. She wasn't vegan herself, but she told me that she would try to reduce her animal product consumption. So she was very sensitive and compassionate and generally a very nice person. 


01:26

Amy


Hi, my name is Amy. 


01:28

James


And my name is James. 


01:29

Amy


And this is How I Learned to Love Shrimp, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. 


01:36

James


We're excited to bring you a different kind of episode today. We recently spoke with Tom, who spent five months working undercover in factory farms in the UK. And I've only met a few people who have been undercover investigators, and they never cease to inspire me with their honestly unbelievable courage and dedication they show to reveal the truth of industrial animal farming. And we speak with Tom about some of the compassionate colleagues he met on factory farms, the mental health challenges of working undercover, how investigations tie in with campaigning, and much more. And this was one of the most inspiring conversations I've had for a while, so I really hope you all enjoy it. And a relevant disclaimer is that there were originally two retailers targeted as part of these investigations. However, since the investigations happened, one of the retailers has made a significant commitment to improve animal welfare in their farms. So we've edited out references to them in this episode at the request of Open Cages. And this win happened to a large extent, I think, to the great work of Tom and Open Cages UK. So thank you to them for this amazing work. And speaking of wins, our past guest, Ines Kostić from the Dutch Party for the Animals, who joined us on episode 13; she is now officially a member of parliament in the Netherlands as of their last election. And obviously huge congratulations to her for winning a seat. And we're excited to have more politicians working for animals anywhere in the world. So potential future guests - all I'm saying is that roughly 5% of our guests have become elected politicians. So if you join us or want to join us, we have a pretty good track record. And if that's not causation, I don't know what is. Hope you enjoy the episode. 


03:08

Amy


We're joined today by Tom Herok, who has recently spent over five months working undercover on British factory farms as part of an investigation by Open Cages, which is the UK branch of Anima International. He also teaches philosophy at Lancaster University in the UK. And we're delighted to have you on, so welcome!


03:30

Tom


Hi, thanks for having me. 


03:31

Amy


I'm just going to start this episode off - which I will say James and I are very excited for; I think it's one of those that I just, again, don't know tons about. And so we always find those the most interesting, where it's kind of a new topic for us to delve into. But I just wanted to start off by saying, obviously, investigative work, as we know in the movement, is dangerous; that person is, you know, putting themselves at risk. We have permission from Tom to tell his story and share his identity during this episode, which we're really grateful for. But there will be some details we can't get into, so bear with us if there's any questions that Tomfeels like he can't dive into just for the safety of himself or for others. And as we discuss direct factory farming conditions, some listeners might find some of the content challenging. So just bear that in mind for this particular episode. So, Tom, what is an animal-related view that you might have changed your mind on recently and why? 


04:28

Tom


I think I've been recently changing my mind about the moral status of insects. This is something I hadn't really thought too much about for a very, very long time. Recently, I listened to this lecture by Megan Barrett. She's an expert in the area, and she argued that what had been accepted by entomologists for a long time in terms of whether insects can feel pain, whether they're sentient or conscious, turned out to be largely false. So, that made me thinking. I'm still not totally sure how to translate that into personal practice or any sort of activism, but it's definitely something animal-related that I have been changing my mind about recently. 


05:20

James


Nice. It's very cool. I went to one of Megan's talks at an effective altruism conference, and, yeah, it was incredibly inspiring, incredibly worrying, just like this scale of the industry growth and everything. So I think that's an interesting point. A good crossover of your philosophy background and your animal interests. 

But, yeah, I'd be very curious to dive into how you ended up doing investigation. I think it's a huge commitment that not many animal advocates could do in their lifetime. And it's something, I think, quite unique. So I'd be very curious to hear how this even became a thing for you and why you decided to take the plunge. 


05:53

Tom


A long time ago, I had this sort of animal rights awakening when I just started learning about factory farming and generally started thinking about ‘How do we treat animals?’ I really loved meat and cheese back then, so I was desperately looking for some sort of moral justification for my dietary habits. But eventually I just gave up and concluded that, well, this is helpless. So I went vegan. It was a long time ago. I didn't think about becoming a campaigner or an activist back then. I think this was mainly because I thought that activism has mostly to do with protesting, holding banners, shouting at people, all the things that made me very uncomfortable and still do. So for a couple of years I was vegan, but I didn't have anything to do with the movement. And then, about maybe ten years ago, I learned about the Polish equivalent of Open Cages. That's what I was into when I lived in Poland, where I'm originally from. And they did this investigation into the Polish fur industry that I remember made this big kind of impression on me. Obviously, it was very heartbreaking seeing all those minks and foxes locked in tiny cages. But on the other hand, I thought there was something very powerful about the idea of actually exposing what's going on behind those walls and fences in your countryside. I'm pointing to specific people, specific companies, specific areas and places, as opposed to just talking about some abstract factory farming. Then I remember I got in touch with them, asking if they need any volunteers. Back then, it was just a small group of friends. Basically, they did this investigation - they were not even sure whether they wanted to transform into this more comprehensive animal advocacy group. But eventually, they decided that they wanted to do more than just campaign for banning the fur industry in Poland. And I discovered there are lots of things that you can do for the animals without actually going out and protesting on the streets there. So I've never actually become like a proper full time activist. These were just random things I did on and off over the years. I think that the idea of working on a farm undercover, I think that was when it first entered my mind. But I didn't end up doing anything in Poland back then. So I moved to the UK to do my PhD. And about two years ago, I contacted Connor, who's the head of Open Cages UK. So basically the sister organization in the UK. And I can't remember exactly. I think I just asked him whether working undercover on a farm is something he would be interested in. And he said: ‘Definitely!’And I think … you know the rest.


09:42

James


It's pretty - you sound very casual when you say: ‘Hey, Connor, are you interested in the investigators? I could be interested.’ That sounds remarkably casual. 


09:51

Tom


I had been thinking about that for quite some time, and I knew it would be like a massive challenge. But I guess my approach was just: ‘I want to give it a go. If it doesn't work, there is no pressure.’ I think it was really good that I already knew people in the organization who did that sort of stuff in different countries, and I could ask them questions and they gave me some advice that was very helpful. 


10:26

Amy


And so was it their accounts that were convincing you to do it? I feel like probably, for me, it would have the opposite effect. If I knew someone who was an undercover investigator and told me about their day-to-day or what was happening there, I imagine perhaps I would be turned away. But it seems to have encouraged you. I find that really interesting. Do you think that there was something in particular about their experience that was so compelling to make you want to give it a go? 


10:55

Tom


I'm not totally sure, to be honest. I remember it was very reassuring that my friend, who used to work undercover on a pig farm in Germany - he told me that at some point he just couldn't kill this pig, which he thought he would be able to do, but he just had to give up and aboard the entire thing. And everybody was okay with that. And he told me that if it happens to you, that everything's going to be fine. It's just worth trying. I remember that sounded very reassuring, and that kind of convinced me to try. 


11:32

Amy


Yeah, sure. That makes sense. There was an opportunity to quickly walk away if you felt like it was getting too much. 


11:41

James


Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to feel at ease; knowing that you're not necessarily letting people down, but what you're doing is an amazing thing, and if it doesn't work out, then that's just the way it goes. There'll be a time in the future or some other people that could also do that. So I think that's very cool. 
And I think moving on to actual investigation, I think I would just be curious for you to please just give some context behind the work you're doing in terms like - you know, it was with Open Cages in the UK, but also, how did you pick these farms and what farms are you targeting? And how did this whole process even start from talking to Connor, to actually getting a job and going in. I know there's a lot to unpack, but we can follow up as well. 


12:22

Tom


Okay. So initially, we decided we would try just one farm. Ideally, it'd be a broiler farm, because Open Cages very much focuses on the issue of broiler chickens. So it was definitely meant to be a broiler farm. We wanted, ideally, one of the biggest producers in the country, which were supplying at least one of those big retailers. 


12:54

Amy


Right. 


12:55

Tom


And we also wanted it to be Red-Tractor-certified. 


12:59

Amy


So that's interesting. So that's like a certification scheme in the UK, right, that supposedly increases the welfare. 


13:07

Tom


Many people believe it means something when it has this label. 


13:11

Amy


Yeah. So it's interesting to dispel those kind of myths as well, that something that's Red-Tractor-stamped in the UK doesn't necessarily, in our opinion, mean high welfare. 


13:23

Tom


Initially, it seemed like Co-op might be the most likely to make this commitment to ditch the fast growing chicken breeds. So we thought that a Co-op farm would be ideal. And I ended up getting a job on a farm that supplied Co-op, but it also happened to supply Lidl. And because around that time, another international campaign by the Open Wing Alliance was launched targeting Lidl in many countries, Open Cages decided that it would make more sense to use that material as part of the Lidl campaign. 


14:12

Amy


And so they just advertise the jobs. Is there, like, a specific place that you look to kind of target those? 


14:19

Tom


Generally, I think chicken farms always need workers, so it's not a massive problem to get a job on a chicken farm. 


14:27 

Amy


Right. 


14:27

Tom


Obviously, it's much harder to get a job on a farm that specifically supplies the retailer you're targeting. What you can learn is that there's always this four digit code on chicken meat sold in the UK. It indicates from which processing factory this meat comes from. And those factories tend to be surrounded by farms and supplied by those farms. So we knew that they were interested in this one big slaughterhouse and factory in Lincolnshire, and there were lots of farms in the area. Presumably - it's a bit more complicated than this - but those farms, obviously were there mostly to send chickens to this factory, so we knew that was the area where we should try and get a job for me. 


15:41

Amy


Yeah. And are they interested in your background or do you fabricate previous experience in order to get the position? 


15:49

Tom


I didn't fabricate anything, but I was also a bit selective. Obviously, I didn't mention PhD in philosophy and generally, like, academic stuff. I didn't mention that. So it was pretty empty. But it seemed that they need pretty much anybody who can show up in the morning and do the job and who'll be willing to do other kind of work; that they're not picky. I was expected to be asked why my CV was so kind of empty. Yes. But they didn't ask me this question. 


16:38

James


Out of interest, what kind of stuff did they ask you in the interview process, if you had much of an interview process? 


16:43

Tom


Can't remember the interview exactly, but I used to work in a supermarket. I had some experience that will be more consistent with a typical farm worker. So that wasn't suspicious. I think they asked me about that and I honestly can't remember too many questions from that interview. It wasn't super long. Then I was invited to do a trial day because they told me that many people who think are capable of doing that kind of work, then it quickly turns out that they don't. So everybody has to spend one day working at a farm to be able to tell whether this is something for them. 


17:34

Amy


Right. 


17:34

Tom


So I had this trial day after the interview and then I got the job. 


17:41

Amy


And just to clarify, so the position that you're actually applying for, what is that technically classed as and what would they expect your responsibilities within that role would be? 


17:52

Tom


It's called farm worker, I believe, or farmhand. And what they advertise is inspecting animals, which is this euphemism for picking up dead ones and killing those sick and weak ones, which is like, I don't know, maybe 90% of what you do. You just wade through this massive shed, you have this ocean of very tightly squeezed birds and your job is to collect the dead ones and identify those that are sick or have deformities or are not moving too much or are not big enough. Basically, they're not going to make it until slaughter, which happens roughly after six weeks. And you're supposed to kill them and then get rid of all those dead ones. That's what you do. There is some additional work, but doing those walks is the main part. 


19:12

James


And yeah, I'd be curious, how come you were in - to me, five months sounds like a long period of time. And I guess I'm curious, how come you were there for five months? Is it because you needed that long to gather the footage you required? Or was there something else that you think it was beneficial for you to be in there for such a long period of time? 


19:27

Tom


Initially, the plan was to spend around six weeks to do one full cycle from day one. When those freshly hatched chickens are placed in sheds to the day when they are taken to the slaughterhouse. But then, for several reasons, we decided that it would make more sense to stay a bit longer on that farm. Effectively, I did on this first farm when I worked one full cycle, plus the end of another cycle when I started, and the beginning of yet another cycle when we thought that we had enough material, enough footage, enough documentation, I just gave my notice and I finished working there. And then Connor suggested that maybe doing another farm elsewhere and a different company, supplying a different retailer would be a good idea at that point - initially, it was very difficult, this whole experience, but it is surprising that you can get used to it pretty much. At least that was my case. I kind of got used to that at that point. It was like two months more, I thought wouldn't make that much of a difference in terms of, I don't know, wellbeing or mental health. So I decided to spend another roughly two months on another farm. 


21:22

Amy


And how do you go about practically getting the footage? So is it cameras that are placed within the farm or are you wearing a camera? How does that work in practice? 


21:31

Tom


Again, I can't go into much detail here, but I was wearing one. I had one hidden camera on my body. The idea was just to put it on when I was starting my shift and to switch it off when I was finished, just to basically document pretty much everything. And I just thought I would just do exactly what I was told to do. To have this footage that represents the normal factory farm working experience as accurately as possible. 


22:11

James


In terms of the long period of time you're working for, the five months and you're going through - well you touched on it in terms of the mental challenges. But how was it for you emotionally, I guess, doing that time there, how did you feel? And was it - you said you got used to it quite quickly, but was it easy to keep going or. Yeah, I'd be curious how your kind of mood and your wellbeing felt over that period of time. 


22:30

Tom


Initially, it was very bad. I remember that first thing was the smell of ammonia, which is really overwhelming. Then we called them the ‘manky ones’. So those chickens that have been left rotting for quite a while, most likely missed during the previous inspection or what, because it's so crowded, it's very easy to miss dead ones. So I would keep finding those kind of greenish ones that have been decomposing for quite a while. And there is no clear way of picking them up or getting rid of them. You'd often just try to grab them by a leg, then the leg stays in your hand and the rest is still on the floor. You very often heard them open, the guts fall out. There is no way of not getting quite dirty doing that job. So that was one very disgusting thing. 

Then I guess initially I didn't realize how much killing it involves. You just keep killing animals with your bare hands all the time, and you never kill enough because there are - sometimes it's, I don't know, tens in one day, sometimes it's hundreds in one day. It's very many animals to kill, and it's not that easy to kill. To kill a chicken with your bare hands, the way you're supposed to do it is you pull both legs with one hand and pull the head with the other hand at the same time to sever the spinal cord. But it's very difficult to do that without taking the head off. So you very often end up just ripping the head off if you want to do it. Because I wanted to do it as quickly, as painlessly as possible. But not all those chickens are the same. It requires some practice, and even experienced people sometimes just decapitate them accidentally. So this makes it a bit bloody. And you have to look for the head, which is somewhere in the crowds. It's not very easy to find it. So that was another thing that was really problematic at the beginning. 


25:34

Amy


Yeah, of course. I think just the sheer scale as well. Right. I think when you imagine picking up the unwell ones, I think probably people who aren't as familiar with factory farming could suggest that perhaps one or two a week. But I think because of the sheer quantity of the amount in the shed, of course, there's like a specific percentage each day even, that are just not making it through because of the conditions, the overpopulation. I think just those sheer numbers are incredible that they're losing that much of their own stock, right. Can you imagine this as, like, thinking about just a vegetable and a ton of them are going moldy every single day. There's obviously a challenge there with how you're raising, in this case, that individual, for it to not last even just six weeks. That's astonishing. 


26:23

Tom


Yes. And I was told I was quite lucky because our mortality at the time was quite low. 


26:30

Amy


Wow. 


26:31

Tom


I heard about other farms or other chicken breeds, other fast growing chicken breeds, which are even more demanding in that respect. You have even more to kill. Like, I heard stories about people killing thousands in one day. 


26:48

James


Well, wow. And I guess, for context, how big were the farms you're working on? So how many chickens were there on the other farms and barn sizes and everything. 


26:57

Tom


The first one was roughly 380,000 birds in one go in ten sheds. And the Morrisons one was a bit smaller. It was maybe 150,000, something like that. 


27:18

James


And this is pretty standard size for broiler factory farming in the UK? Do you know that or is that right? 


27:25

Tom


Yeah. I'm not really sure what the standard is. I think, like, hundreds of thousands is a standard size. The biggest ones, I mean, you might have a farm that is, I guess, a million or more than 1 million, perhaps even several million. I'm not totally sure. 


27:42

Amy


And do you talk about that? I think that is shocking. Like you were saying, just the sheer amount that are either dying or having to be killed because of ill health. Did you express that to other staff or the people working on the farm, that that was surprising to you? And is there like a particular retort that you felt was common across both farms? That it's like: ‘Oh, yeah, it's because of X, Y and Z, why there is so much death’. Is there a common thread there? 


28:10

Tom


Yes, they will tell you that, obviously, initially, it's quite shocking and then you just get used to that. We would have conversations about animal welfare with other coworkers. They all turned out to be very surprisingly compassionate people. Some of them, in a sense, more compassionate than myself in a way. That was very surprising. I definitely didn't expect that. So it's not that they don't care or they just think of those chickens as some sort of resources or machines with no feelings or with no experiences. 


29:03

James


What do you mean by that? When you said you think in some ways they were more compassionate than you? Is it things they said or things they did that kind of made you think this? 


29:10

Tom


So, for example, my coworker on this first farm after it was raining, I remember we spent, like, a lot of time removing frogs and snails from around those sheds because she told me that when she steps on a snail or a frog or runs one over with a car, that ruins her day. She just feels terrible. She absolutely loved frogs. Personally, I'm not that into frogs. It wasn't something that would cross my mind to just make sure that all frogs are safe. And she definitely saw this entire thing as a massive moral problem. She was kind of skeptical in terms of whether anything can be done about it, but she would sometimes tell me how she tries to get her family to eat more vegan products.  She wasn't vegan as really, but she told me that she would try to reduce her animal product consumption. So she was very sensitive and compassionate and generally a very nice person. And also other people who work on that farm. So this first farm was just the farm manager, his assistant, and me, and my coworker; four people. Before me, it was only three of them, which shows you how few people you need to run. 


30:56

James


So it's like almost one person per 100,000 for the chickens? 


31:00

Tom


Yes. It's automatized to a very large extent. Obviously, there are some other people who appear on that farm from time to time. There are catchers, there are obviously electricians, all sorts of maintenance people. You're not responsible for everything. But in terms of this day to day work, it's just four people, sometimes three, sometimes even two, on a farm which has almost 400,000 animals. 


31:37

Amy


Wow. It's interesting what you were saying about talking to the coworker about veganism and reducing meat consumption. Did you feel like you were able to talk about your sense of your kind of moral compass in this conversation? Did you feel like you could let any of your authentic self in there, or did you feel like the whole thing, you were better off just putting on kind of an act to make sure you didn't kind of blow that cover? How far were you able to kind of stretch that reality from the kind of role that you were playing? 


32:11

Tom


Obviously, I had to be careful about this. Obviously, I didn't tell anyone I was vegan. I just tried to stick to asking questions without telling too much about my own views while having those conversations. I also had to be careful not to have too many of those conversations, not to make it too suspicious. But it felt like we were roughly on the same page with my coworker in terms of what we think about this whole industry. And also another interesting story - it was the assistant manager who once told me: there was this heat wave last year during the summer, and I don't know if you were in the UK at that time. It was super hot, like, I think, over 40 degrees Celsius at one point. So that killed millions of chickens. And that was probably the most disgusting experience I've ever had in my life. Being sent to a different farm when I was supposed to clean up the chickens that have been rotting there for a number of days. They turned into that kind of, I don't know, slime. It was difficult to identify. It was impossible to identify those individual chickens in it. It was kind of like an extremely smelly soup. I just couldn't believe that this kind of stench can even exist when they opened the door. And there were still some chickens that survived, so we were basically meant to separate those that were still alive from the dead ones and clean it up. So this assistant manager was picking up dead ones at a different farm, and she said that at one point - I think she was just resting - one chicken came up to her and died on her lap because of the heat. And she said it made her so sad that she almost cried. And then she shared that with her coworker. And her coworker told her, look, these are just chickens. And she replied something like: ‘You mustn't think about them like that. These are not just chickens.’ So that was very surprising. That was something I would never expect to hear from a factory farm worker. In many ways, they seem to be very compassionate people. Many of them. 

On the other hand, some of them would, for example, hunt a lot. Shooting is a very popular pastime, I have discovered, especially among factory farm managers. Those people who are maybe a bit higher up in the hierarchy. So on this Morrisons farm where I worked, my manager was a very keen shooter, and he would tell me stories about deers and rabbits and pheasants dying a slow and painful death that he would see. That was quite gruesome. 
But at the same time, it wasn't that he didn't care about chickens or he didn't see a moral problem with how those chickens are treated. So sometimes it was quite confusing and paradoxical, and it was difficult to tell what I should make of it. 


36:46

James


Wow. Yeah, I think that sounds really surprising. I think I definitely wouldn't have expected that story about your coworker kind of saving frogs and snails from being run over. I think that's just - yeah, I don't think I would have thought that either. And I think that's pretty - I guess it's wonderful that people have that kind of compassion and shows that most people are doing these jobs not because they enjoy this, but they're doing it because it's a job and they're kind of forced to, and you have to make a wage somehow. And I think that it's tough to square that with how you might actually feel about the issues. 
I'm also curious to ask - I guess you mentioned that a surprising component of your experience is actually learning about the people of the job and the views they hold, which might not be so radically different to ours. But, I would be curious if there's anything else that you found quite surprising from actually working in a broiler farm versus what you had seen online or seen from other people. Yeah, anything else there? 


37:37

Tom


Obviously, I had been familiar with videos and undercover investigations.So, I roughly knew what to expect. But I guess another surprising thing was that when you kill a chicken, they don't die immediately, but they have those very strong muscles. And so after you break the neck, they start flapping their wings and kicking very forcefully, and it takes a while until they stop. So you very often find yourself with chickens in both your hands, just flapping, and you just have to stand there and wait; put them on the floor or put them into your pocket because they're going to jump out. So this process of dying and how much time it takes, and given how many chickens you have to kill every day, how much time the process of killing takes, that was quite surprising. 


38:49

Amy


I think it's quite frightening as well. We used to have some hens that were rescued from a farm and a couple of those passed away whilst they were in our care. And a similar thing where we knew they were unwell and then they had this kind of real last minute, manic kind of flapping. And I think not many of us are very comfortable with a bird anyway. We don't tend to have them as pets. We're not around birds that much. People kind of waff them away. It's kind of scary when they're flapping like that. So, yeah, I can definitely relate to that sense. Do you feel like that it's just quite an intense few moments, right, where it's just this kind of excessive flapping? I found it quite frightening, actually. 


39:41

Tom


It is, yes. And hundreds of other chickens are looking at it at the same time. Sometimes they try to attack you, too. When they see you're killing one, they try to protect them. So that's another maybe slightly frightening thing at the beginning. They're not really dangerous, but it can be a bit frightening. 


40:15

James


Similar theme: I'd be curious to hear, I guess, if you share what else was difficult for you. I guess there's obviously, you said some of the most disgusting elements of your life in terms of walking into these barns where the stench is so bad. But I guess, did you find most difficult the physical handling of animals or the kind of trying to cover up your true identity and what you thought? And I guess, what did you find most challenging in your experience? 


40:42

Tom


Trying to cover up my identity wasn't a massive challenge. Well, obviously you have to have conversations with your coworkers and they share their personal details and ask you about your personal life, so you have to make things up. After a while it's kind of difficult to make your responses consistent with all the previous lies, because you don't necessarily remember them. But I wouldn't say it was a massive problem. Initially, the greatest problem was this smell and this disgust that I felt and the thing is that they very often defecate on you while you're killing them. I remember after one shift, we were totally covered with bits of rotting chickens and blood and urine and feces. And my coworkers said something like: ‘well, I'm not squeamish, but it must be the most disgusting job in this country’ - or something like that. It was very disgusting. 
And also, after what I experienced on this farm, when I was supposed to clean up the thousands of chickens that were left rotting in this extreme heat for very many days. Yeah, I thought that was maybe too much, but then you kind of get used to that. It's not that bad all the time. It's more towards the end of the cycle, I guess. The first week, it's when they're really tiny, it's okay. It's too hot. Like, the temperature is very high. It has to be very high for them. Then it's lowered, so it's not super comfortable. But in terms of being disgusting, it's much more tolerable. And there's also, like seven days roughly between the crops when you have to clean everything and repair stuff. So sometimes they would send you to another farm, sometimes not. So you have a couple of days off. So I wouldn't say it's equally bad and disgusting all the time. I remember then when a new crop started, it was much easier to do that. Obviously, you have to kill those animals all the time, but it's very easy to kill this little - physically easy to kill a little chick. But mainly you just get used to that. I think I just stopped thinking about this whole situation and the suffering and the whole unpleasantness of this entire experience. And you just tell yourself, there's no point dwelling on it. You have to do your job. At least that's what I told myself, and I just continued. 


44:15

James


That all sounds - it’s a lot to take in, but, yeah, I guess inspiring in some ways, and thanks for your work. Yeah, I can imagine there's the different elements, which I think the last one you touched on, which I didn't mention, which is the emotional difficulty of actually killing the animals. Being someone who cares so much about animals and just hearing that, yeah, you can get used to that and you have to block it out your mind is - I guess that sounds very tough. And yeah, I guess just thank you again for all that work. I think that sounds inspiring. And we'll definitely share a link to - there's a video produced by Open Cages and based on the footage you got which we can share when this is released, as well as any other relevant footage, because I think it's incredibly inspiring to hear both your story and see the footage you gathered and how awful the conditions are. 


45:02

Amy


And is the footage of just the welfare standards as it is enough for Open Cages to have this really compelling campaign? Obviously, we know what the conditions are and the general public don't. Or are you looking for specific kind of defaults or abuse? Or is it more than just like the everyday standard welfare conditions that you're trying to find? Or are they enough to support a good campaign to show what it's really like inside a factory farm? 


45:35

Tom


As animal rights people, we think this is what standardly happens on those farms, and is horrific enough to be publicized. But the media don't necessarily agree. They are typically more interested in the illegal stuff. Which is not often very helpful. Many journalists or I think many members of the general public believe that, well, as long as it's legal, it's okay. So if there is some malpractice, that something should be done about it. But if everything is done by the book, that's roughly fine. And obviously, the main problem is all that legal abuse that happens. All those farms. I wasn't specifically looking for anything extra. I just wanted to do my job as I was told and see what happens. But there were also elements of some illegal abuse as I filmed. And obviously, if you have that kind of footage, it's easier to turn it into a media story. But on the other hand, you don't want the story to be focused too much on the illegal stuff. So it can be tricky. So in terms of the illegal stuff I saw: one thing was running chicken over with forklifts while catching them. I wasn't responsible for doing the catching. There was like a separate team of people who would just arrive to tramp them into those little crates and put those crates onto lorries. And then the lorries go to the slaughterhouse. So in the process of catching, because it has to be done quickly, like inevitably you're going to kill or injure a number of animals. So it always happens, even though in theory, it's not supposed to happen at all. So I was supposed to deal with whatever was left after catching, which was always a bunch of dead ones and a bunch of not always but sometimes a bunch of half dead ones, like badly injured birds that looked dead, but they were not dead. And I was supposed to kill them, which was often a challenge, because sometimes they were so badly crushed or disfigured that the usual method of killing them was useless. So, you have to be creative to kill them sometimes. I remember a couple of times I thought I was just picking up this kind of very bloody bird that I thought was dead. But then it turned out he wasn't and I had to kill him somehow, which was pretty challenging

So, what the catchers do to those birds in the process of catching, which is - I think - mainly running them over with forklifts, but also maybe stepping on them or, I don't know, kicking them accidentally. I'm not totally sure. We're not allowed to witness it. These were examples of something that's some additional suffering that happens there that's not supposed to be happening, legally speaking. There were some other bits, like on the Morrison's farm, for example. There was an issue with sleep deprivation. So legally, they’re supposed to have a couple of hours every day of darkness so they can sleep. But when the lights are on, they're more active, so they eat more, so they grow faster. So farmers try to make this period of darkness as short as possible. 


50:38

Amy


I mean, already 2 hours seems pretty short, right? It's not as if they're getting, like a good 12 hours, right? 


50:44

Tom


Yeah, towards the end, I think it's only two hours. Initially, it's like six or something that's produced as they grow. But on my farm, the problem was that they couldn't figure out how to program the lights, and they just concluded that, well, why not just leave it for 24 hours? They're only going to grow faster. So they did. So again, I'm not an expert in chicken welfare but … 


51:25

James


Was that for the whole six weeks or was that just for the last. 


51:27

Tom 


Yes, for the whole six weeks. I think the main reason wasn't that they wanted them to grow faster. The main reason was they had no idea how the programming worked. But you're always going to find stuff like that. In my experience, there's no part where everything is done by the book. So there is always, in addition to what is allowed to be happening, there is also some extra abuse. But I wanted to highlight, I've never seen any example of sadism or any gratuitous violence. It was always something that was the consequence of just having to work too fast or not being, not knowing how something works. Yes, bad practice. 


52:30

James


Yeah. I think you raise a good point there about the difficulty in covering and trying to show the media or the public the story, because you don't want to focus too much on that small, isolated number of cases where there's extreme violence, like running animals over. Because there's plenty of suffering in just the day to day legal kind of combinement of chickens or the way they're treated on farms. I can imagine that's a quite difficult balance in terms of showing and telling the story. I guess with that, I'm kind of curious to hear: what was the next step and what did you - at Open Cages - do with the footage you gathered, and how has that process gone so far? 


53:10

Tom


So that was a bit of a rocky experience, let's say. So we wanted some big media outlet to publish that stuff. Eventually, one of the biggest investigative news programs decided to do a material about the first part of the investigation. So it was meant to be released simultaneously with a newspaper publication done by Daily Mirror. However, the lawyers representing the company I worked for, as well as little lawyers, got in touch with the TV station, and eventually the TV station pulled out literally at the last minute. So that was very disappointing. They didn't manage to threaten the Daily Mirror into pulling out, but the main thing was supposed to be this TV material. But then, on the other hand, because initially Lidl's reaction was: ‘look there is also those other retailers supplied by this farm. So why single us out?’


55:02

James


Was that the main complaint? What did they threaten the company with?


55:10

Tom


Initially. But after a couple of days, they started claiming that they are not supplied by this farm or this company at all anymore. So they said, we used to be, but not anymore. And there was also this suggestion made by the solicitors - I'm not sure if they were representing Lidl or the chicken producer, but they would suggest that it's all manipulation and there are some legal proceedings going on against Open Cages or myself. I guess it wasn't very clear what they said, but it kind of strongly suggested to those journalists that if you publish, you're going to get into serious legal trouble. And then they repeated the trick with many newspapers with pretty much anyone who wanted to cover this story. But Lidl denied that they were supplied by this company but the activists from Open Cages and also from the Humane League discovered that you can still buy chicken in Lidl with the code from that very factory that was supplied by my farm. This meat is still there on sale. 


56:41

James


And did you take that to the journalists as well? And what did they say? 


56:46

Tom


Yes, we took that to journalists. I wasn't involved myself, but it was more like Open Cages UK. And that worked quite well because you had this big retailer claiming ‘we're not supplied by this company anymore’ and at the same time, in many places you could buy meats that were explicitly is labeled as coming from this company. So that caught a lot of media attention, apparently. So eventually, I think it was more than 250 articles altogether, written in different media about this Lidl story, focused on the fact that they were denying that they are supplied by the company. 


57:44

Amy


Right. And at this point within these proceedings, is the farm aware that it was you that was undercover? Was this exposed at this stage?


57:57

Tom


Oh, yeah, I think that was clear immediately. As soon as the TV station approached the company, I think it was clear to them that it was me. 


58:10

Amy


Yeah, sure. And is there truth in the legality, like them saying that - sort of threatening the media companies to say that they would be in serious legal trouble? Is there truth to that? What is the legal situation around being undercover? 


58:27

Tom


Yeah, again, I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I can tell, that was already bluff. That had no basis in anything whatsoever. So they would suggest that ‘Look, those activists are not reliable. It's all doctored, it's all a manipulation, it's all slander. We're going to sue them. And if you start writing about that, we're going to sue you as well.’ Or possibly some, I don't know, even criminal charges might be involved. They were not super clear about that, as far as I can tell, when communicating with the media. But it sounded like: ‘If you get involved, then you're going to be in serious trouble.’ And it kind of worked to an extent. But to this day, I haven't received any communication either from Lidl or from the company that I worked for, and nor have Open Cages, as far as I can tell. So it's been just nothing, because there is very little basis, I think, for taking legal action. Again, I'm not totally sure. Perhaps you can always try to sue people, I guess, for representing what's going on in your company, but it seems to me that they wouldn't be very successful if they tried. 


01:00:18

Amy


Yeah. And did you feel like, did you have some sort of agreement with Open Cages? I'm just thinking for people who might want to do this, there's obviously a certain level of personal, significant and personal risk. If there was kind of any legal case, did you feel like you had good support from Open Cages if it ever kind of ended up like that? Did you feel comfortable? Or is it a sense that once you're in there, you put yourself at risk, you're on your own? How does that relationship work when you're kind of doing it on behalf of them, but also you're acting in - you're the one who wants to go in there and do it. What's that relationship like? 


01:00:54

Tom


Yes, I was sure that if any legal problems happen, I wouldn't be obviously left alone and Open Cages would cover all the costs, because obviously it's very expensive to pay for the lawyers. I had this assurance that if they decide to go after me personally instead of the organization or maybe try to do both, that they would still help me. 


01:01:40

Amy


Yeah, great. That's good to have that reassurance. 


01:01:43

Tom


Yeah. And I think it's very important to keep that in mind; that you're not going to end up in financial ruin if something happens. 


01:01:59

James


Yeah, I can imagine that's super important because being a single person taking on very large, very powerful companies. Yeah. 

I'm curious: what's next in the campaign? So we're recording this in November, 2023. So little investigation has gone out, but there's more to come out when they'll release it, which is in January, February. So, yeah, maybe you can talk about what's in the pipeline to be released and how you expect that to turn out. 


01:02:24

Tom


As far as I can tell, the general idea behind this campaign is to get those big retailers to commit to what is called the Better Chicken Commitment, which means that those supermarkets would stop selling the meat coming from those fast-growing chicken breeds, and they would also ensure that animals have more space; they would generally have better conditions; which is obviously not ideal, but in terms of welfare, it's quite significant. And also it raises the price of meat, which is also an argument, I guess. You have to pay more for your chicken meat, therefore you have this incentive to buy less. So I think some supermarkets like M&S and Waitrose have made a commitment. Lidl in the UK, I think, still haven't been persuaded. So it's going to take more to get them to make this commitment. 

Generally, the idea is to keep doing those investigations and keep pressuring those retailers to do something about this standard fast-growing broiler breeds. So I think eventually -  it's not going to be me, but eventually we're going to see more materials and more undercover stuff revealing what's going on at those farms supplying those big supermarkets and Open Cages are going to try and get them to make the commitment. 


01:04:48

Amy


And on that note, then: what's next for you? Would you go in and do this again? Do you feel like you've kind of done your part now and you're happy to walk away? Do you think you could go undercover again in another case? 


01:05:00

Tom


Well, the fact that I'm giving this interview and showing my face and really revealing my identity is probably not going to help. So I didn't plan to do anything like it anymore. But I never say never. Maybe it will happen. It's going to be significantly more difficult, I imagine, if I decide to do that again. But I don't think they are very big on background screening while doing recruitment for factory farms. 


01:05:46

Amy


Sure. I don't think they listen to the podcast religiously. [laughing]


01:05:50

Tom


Yeah. I don't even think they will google you properly. But maybe it has changed recently. But in any case, I'm not really planning to do any undercover investigations in the predictable future. 


01:06:09

James


Well, I think you've done, I think, more than your fair share of time at factory farms, so I don't think no one expects that of you. And, yeah, so it's amazing again to hear about your story! 

Moving on to some closing questions: I'm curious to hear what bit of news that relates to animal advocacy that you're feeling grateful about; you're feeling positive about? Yeah, does anything come to mind? 


01:06:32

Tom


Lithuania banned fur farming, effective in 2027, I believe, which is fairly soon. This is something we have been trying to achieve in Poland, where there's a massive industry for quite a while. We got very close to it, I think, two years ago, but eventually the lobbyists were able to block the ban. But it happened in Lithuania and their fur farming industry was sizable too. So I think that was a success and I'm still hoping for the EU ban on fur farming to be put in place. I think it might happen. There is this European initiative to ban it, so I think it will be decided fairly soon. But if it doesn't happen, you can still fight for those local, national bans, and it works. So I think it's something meaningful. And as you can see, you can achieve success just working with politicians, trying to get them to ban the entire industry. It's possible. 


01:08:04

Amy


And just so - we'll put everything in the show notes, everything that Tom has spoken about; also links to Open Cages, the investigation. Is there anything else you would recommend to listeners? Any other books or blog posts, podcasts? I'd be interested if any of your kind of philosophy work has overlapped with the animal stuff? Any recommendations that we might not have heard of? 


01:08:27

Tom


My philosophy work doesn't overlap with animal stuff too much. I tend to focus on the methodology of ethics, metaphilosophy, more abstract things like that. So it's still ethics to a large extent, but it's not explicitly about animals. But in terms of - thinking about that, the last good book about animal ethics I've read was Fellow Creatures by Christine Korsgaard. She's a philosophy professor at Harvard. It was very good, I thought. So I can definitely recommend that book, if you're interested in the philosophical animal ethics. I thought that your listeners might be interested in effective altruism more generally. And I have been reading a lot criticism of effective altruism recently. So if that is something that interests you, and if you like podcasts and if you like YouTube channels, there is something called Unlearning Economics that I liked a lot recently. I think it was very well researched and very entertaining at the same time. So the effective altruist  is often accused of being too, I would say, optimistic about the current social and political status quo and ignoring maybe a lot of injustice and misery that is produced by this, by the status quo. So this channel is presenting a pessimistic perspective in a pretty nice way. So I can recommend that. Another podcast I like that was pretty much in that vein was called Tech Won't Save Us. Again, quite informative and entertaining at the same time. So I can recommend that. But it's not about animals, more about changing the world in general. 


01:10:51

James


I think it's still very interesting. I think it's probably relevant to lots of people when they care about animal welfare. So I think that's still great.. So thank you. 

I think we'll wrap up there. I just want to say thank you again. This has been super interesting and a very different, real perspective that I think I've really enjoyed listening to and really appreciate all the amazing work you've done, Tom. And yeah, I mean, it was very inspiring and I'm looking forward to it coming out more in the future. And yeah, all your work pressuring these companies and trying to make a better world. So, yeah, thank you!


01:11:22

Tom


Thank you!


01:11:24

Amy


Thanks to the listeners as well. I know it's not an easy listen. It's probably one of the more kind of graphic episode that we've done. So if you've got to this point, thanks for bearing with us and yeah, thanks, Tom, for your time and work. Obviously hugely important and going in there and recording what you have. So, yeah, thanks!


01:11:43

Tom


Thank you.