Wu Hung on how Buddhism has influenced his 30 years of activism for animals in Taiwan Artwork

How I Learned to Love Shrimp

How I Learned To Love Shrimp is a podcast showcasing innovative and impactful ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement.

We talk to experts about a variety of topics: animal rights, animal welfare, alternative proteins, the future of food, and much more. Whether it's political change, protest, technological innovation or grassroots campaigns, we aim to cover it all with deep dives we release every two weeks.

Subscribe and please do share with any interested folks! You can also leave feedback and suggestions by contacting us directly through our website.

All Episodes

How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Wu Hung on how Buddhism has influenced his 30 years of activism for animals in Taiwan

September 10, 2024 • Amy Odene & James Ozden

Wu Hung trained as a monk before his journey into animal advocacy began and it is these teachings in the ‘inconsistencies of life’ that led him to believe he could change the future for animals in Taiwan.

Through liaising with government officials, top business people and the general public, as well as predictable pushback from the industry, navigating the complexities of a relatively new movement in Taiwan has not been easy for EAST. We hear about these challenges and also how members of the global north can support this important work in Taiwan.

Relevant links to things mentioned throughout the show:

EAST website

If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at hello@howilearnedtoloveshrimp.com. Enjoy!

Wu Hung: We knew the mayor when he was a legislator. So we work with other animal protection group. We have some kind of award from animal friendly legislator, and he is one of them. Not for the farm animal, but for dog and cat, for other, for wildlife. He is one of them. So we knew him. And ever since he was a legislator and when he started to run in for the mayor election, we also stand by him too, when he said he will have animal friendly policy when he become a mayor. So that is one of the policies he promised when he running for the mayor.

Amy: Hi, my name is Amy.

James: And my name is James.

Amy: And this is How I Learned to Love Shrimp, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement.

James: In this episode, we talk with Wu Hung from the Environment and Animal Society of Taiwan. We speak about how the movement in Taiwan has grown over the past few decades, some exciting corporate and legislative victories they've had, and even how Wu Hung's past life as an ordained monk has impacted his approach to helping animals. I really enjoyed this episode, and I hope you do, too. So as always, thanks for listening.

Amy: Hi, everyone. This week we are talking with Wu Hung, who is the founder and chief executive officer at the Environment and Animal Society of Taiwan, otherwise known as EAST, which has been operating since the year 2000. Prior to founding EAST, Wu Hung was the secretary general at the Life Conservationist association for seven years, and overall, his activism for animals has spanned the last 30 years. Amazing. Welcome, Wu Hung.

Wu Hung: Thank you.

Amy: Incredible bio. I always think the movement's still, you know, relatively new. And then when we hear from activists like yourself who've been involved in this type of work for so long, I find it incredibly interesting to hear about that journey of how far the movement has come along in that time. I'd love to know from you, first off, what's a mistake you made recently that others might find useful to learn from?

Wu Hung: This question is very, very good question, actually. I give quite a long thought about it. Really, I don't think I made any mistake that has been- is worthwhile for others to learn, actually. We may have some error, we might have some trial and error, but I really think we don't deserve any mistake because with limited resources, limited time, understaffed, so any campaign, any movement we involve, we need to make no mistake. So we always try to, when we really, when we step up to an announcement or make a law amendment or visit the government officials or talking to the industry, we need to prepare well, before we go. Of course, we may meet some errors. We might, and we don't really understand something 100%. However, we just prepare ourselves.

Wu Hung: We are ready to make any changes, any modifications, whether it's announcement or amendment, we need to be pretty sure we don't make any mistakes.

Amy: Is it because of perhaps the situation in Taiwan or, like a cultural challenge where you have one opportunity to make a first impression or one opportunity to spread your message? And perhaps it would be challenging if that was not prepared in the right way. I think there's some organizations who are quite open to taking some risks and trying things and making mistakes and learning from them and then trying again. Do you think that's not something that's perhaps available to EAST in Taiwan?

Wu Hung: Yeah, I think because we often say that compared to, for example, West Europe or North America, the movement in Taiwan is very young, only 30 years maybe compared to the movement in Europe, it's about more than 100 years. Even for farm animal, I think in Europe is about 50, 60 years already, and we just half away. So we need to. And we are only just one group. And the infrastructure for the farm animals in particular is much weaker, weak. So we don't have support from academics and the politicians, they don't have interest at the very beginning. So we have to be very careful. When we launched the campaign at very beginning and 20 years ago, we do the study and investigation for three years.

Wu Hung: After three years, then we get together the footage, then we announce our first appear to the government, to the public.

James: Is part of that, because it's a newer thing in Taiwan, you want to make sure that you're very credible, you've done all the homework, and you've made sure everything's absolutely correct. Is that the main reason why, in that case, maybe you spent three years gathering the information?

Wu Hung: Yes. Not only correct, but also we have experience for the other animal protection movement. For example, the straight up issues, wildlife issues in Taiwan. Often we say, okay, this shelter is not good. The welfare of dogs in this shelter is appalling. Then the government will say, oh, there is only a single case, only one case, one shelter. So we need to prove that this situation is systematic. The problem is a systematic problem. So we need to make a change. And that change must be institutional, must be- come from policy, must come from the legislation. So then we can really change the whole system. So then bring the movement to a momentum.

Amy: You spoke there about the movement starting about 30 years ago, and obviously, I said in the intro, that's about as long as you've been around. Is that a coincidence? Do you feel like you were one of those real kind of founding members of starting to talk about animal rights in Taiwan. Does it look like when you first entered this space and wanted to talk about animals in this way?

Wu Hung: No, I was actually acting as Secretary General of Life Conservationist Association. I was actually a monk. You know, I just been ordained as a monk. And that's why I have a name for Wu Hung, actually. I really want to pursue the life of a monk, a buddhist monk. So to get. Try to pursue the enlightenment of my life. However, very short time after I had been ordained as a monk in Taiwan, animal cruelty has been in a society that become headlines in our newspaper. You know, people using the hook for fishing. Okay, fishing the fish. Instead of fishing the fish, they're fishing the pigeon or chickens. And in a cage, they throw the hook to the. To the pigeon, to the, to the chickens and put it to yourself, and then that's your trophy. So that becomes a very big issue in Taiwan.

Wu Hung: So one of our, my master and accountant and businessmen, entrepreneurs, they think this is- the society in Taiwan is sick. So we need to campaign. We need to promote the respect of life in Taiwan. That's why the association called the Life Conservationist Association in Taiwan. Yeah.

James: You said you spent ten years as an ordained monk. I'm curious, what did that teach you about working- was that the start of your interest in animal welfare? And what did you learn from that experience that maybe translate to this world?

Wu Hung: I would like to learn Buddhism more. That's why I want to be then as a monk. The core thinking of the Buddhism, everything is inconsistent. So the change itself is that you can make things change. You can change the mistreatment of animals. You can change the way how people treat animals. From that moment, I start to learn what is animal protection, how to do campaigns, and that's why I go to the Shih Hsin university to learn social transformation in that. And so I actually, I start this career after I become a monk.

Amy: Right.

James: Very cool.

Amy: I think it makes a lot of sense, like acknowledging, you know, suffering and the, like, rightness of the world. I think that it marries a lot with that kind of sentiment of Buddhism, doesn't it, in terms of peace. And do they actually practice vegetarianism in Buddhism? Do they encourage that?

Wu Hung: Yes, actually, Buddhism is around the world. There's a Buddhism as a religion. So. But the Buddhism in Tibet or Buddhism in Korea or in Japan, vegetarian is not necessary. So actually it's a social context. But however, in Taiwan, in China, in many Chinese society, if you are Buddhist, actually in vegetarian is encouraged. Not 100% guarantee, but is encouraged. You need to be eat less meat or eat no meat.

James: I guess I'm curious yet to hear more about the movement in Taiwan. I'm kind of curious how many of the groups campaign for animal issues, like how eleven are you or other groups and what approaches do they take if there are several others?

Wu Hung: Depends on how you define the animal protection group. Broadly, if you say any group that is carrying animals, including dog and cats, then that would be, I would say maybe 100. But most of them, maybe 90% of them or 95% of them are dog and cats concerning groups. And for the rest groups will be maybe only 20 or 25 that also concern take care of our animals other than dog and cats, including birds, rabbits or rodents and yeah, but only maybe two or three groups in Taiwan do care about farming animals.

Amy: Okay. So still, like, I think it's more than I was maybe expecting, but still fairly small in terms of the community that you have, as you were saying, comparatively to maybe like North America or in West Europe. And in terms of the movement there, so what are the- maybe if you can give us like just the top three biggest challenges when it comes to factory farming in Taiwan?

Wu Hung: Taiwan, you know, it's quite famous about, you know, MIT. Right. Electronics.

Amy: Right.

Wu Hung: MIT chips in, made in Taiwan.

James: Semiconductors.

Wu Hung: Yeah, semiconductors. It's well known. However, in terms of the agriculture, in particular the livestock industry, we don't have policy. You know, I really don't think that our government has the policy. As long as the government makes sure there's eggs and egg price is not too high. There's meat and the meat price is not too high. Not suddenly go too high. And that is, okay, so that is the problem. That is the challenge for us. So in terms of effective farming, I think the price of eggs, the price of meat, that is the first challenge. And the second is the quantity. When we're talking about cage free eggs, the government says, oh no, that will reduce the quantity suddenly to one third of the quantity. Okay, so then there's a big hurdle there.

Wu Hung: And then the last thing is if you go the egg price goes high. How about the farmers profit? The profit of farmers can earn every year can be go down sharply. And that is a problem. So I think I would say the three challenges is the price, quantity and the profit.

Amy: And when you're saying the government have interest in keeping the prices of meat and eggs low, are they supplementing that with subsidies like they do here in the UK? Do they give money to farmers or are they in some way influencing those prices to keep them low?

Wu Hung: Yes. First of all, there's no tax. There's no tax for any agriculture products, including fishery. So including egg or meat. So there's no tax and secondly, as long as the farmer complain, best policy for the minister is to give away the money to compensate the money to subsidise, to egg production, to pig food production or to meat production.

Amy: Okay.

James: Is there a reason why the government basically wants to keep prices low and quantity high? Because they see it as like a healthy and developed product. This is an important protein to help population develop and etc. What's the reason you think why they're pushing this?

Wu Hung: They consider meat, eggs the basic needs. Basic need for every citizen. So the price of egg is under control by the premier in the executive UN. So there's a report every month. So the price of egg, price of meat is monitored check in- checked by the high official or office in the government.

Amy: So it seems like the farmers have quite a lot of power then. What's the kind of setup of that? Is it much more like localized, maybe co-operative or community farms? Or is it more like bigger corporations that own quite a lot of the farming structures?

Wu Hung: It depends on the species. For example, we have the dairy cattle industry in Taiwan, it’s not big. However, most of the milk dairy products consumed in Taiwan is local product produced. Okay, they are much, for example, 500 dairy farmers. But they earn quite a lot of money so the equipment, they can have robot milking machines in Taiwan. So it's quite advanced. However, because Taiwan and New Zealand, we have an agreement from next year, 2025, the products, dairy products imported from New Zealand will be zero tariff. The tariff will be free. So dairy industry in Taiwan become more cautious. And because they are facing strong competition from New Zealand. However, when we're talking about eggs, there are 2000 egg farmers, from big to small.

Wu Hung: So that make our cage free movement in Taiwan become more difficult because the government is taking care more number of farmers - small farm, small to big. So when we're talking about the quantity, 30% is big for those. For the bigger farmers, big number of farmers. So that makes cage free movement is more difficult. From the dairy to the laying hens in Taiwan.

James: How much of maybe like eggs or meat is imported from China versus produced locally in Taiwan?

Wu Hung: In terms of pig, the pork, nearly 100%. Eggs, nearly 100%. But in terms of the beef, only 5%.

James: Interesting.

Wu Hung: Only 5%. So our animal welfare certification scheme for the dairy cattle is more successful, quicker than the laying hen, than the egg.

James: And that's because, obviously, it's a bit easier. Just like Taiwanese companies are more willing to make changes and it's kind of contained within Taiwan rather than trying to affect companies in China?

Wu Hung: No, not a company in China. I think in terms of dairy cattle, is because of a competition from New Zealand.

James: Oh, got it, okay.

Wu Hung: The dairy product from New Zealand. Yeah. For beef. It also said that challenges from the Canada, American or Argentina from those suppliers. But in terms of x, because, you know, almost 100% locally produced, the effectiveness from external challenge is minimum.

Amy: Okay. So you're not having to deal with as much of an import challenge. So, in a way, I guess even though it is dispersed across many different farms or farmers, at least it's all contained within Taiwan, whereas I think we see in other, especially in Europe, so much of the produce is imported, and it's much more difficult to affect change in other countries, of course, through things like legislation.

Wu Hung: Yes.

Amy: So, yeah, that's interesting. Okay. And is there any other kind of farming concerns in Taiwan? I remember reading about, like, a specific rise in duck farming. Is there other kind of welfare challenges specific to Taiwan that maybe people in the global North might not recognize as a concern in their own country?

Wu Hung: Very good. Interesting question. The duck eggs, the ducks used in Taiwan to produce the duck eggs, is very unique. Is developed and selected in Taiwan. So the duck eggs, there's no such industry of duck eggs in other place other than Taiwan. But the yolk of duck egg is a main ingredient for moon cake and in Chinese society around the world, during the Mooncake moon festival, they always eat the mooncake. So the production of mooncake around the world, they always need the yolk of duck eggs from Taiwan. So Taiwan actually export 400 containers of duck yolk from North America to Europe, supply to those Chinese needs of mooncake. So that is quite unique in Taiwan. Yeah.

James: Wow, that's so niche. I would never thought of that.

Wu Hung: And the farming of duck eggs is, the history is usually the ducks are grown in the riverside. It's a free range. However, because of the environmental issues and because of the Bird Flu issues, so the government encouraged those farmers to push those ducks into inside, indoor. And then because of the scarcity of land, some people try to. And also because of the Bird Flu, they become caged up. So that become a big issue for us. It's only a only challenge for us in Taiwan. Yeah, it's quite unique challenge. So right now we're trying to. However, we already stop that from being built up new cage system in Taiwan. So that is the first momentum for us, we are now trying to get rid of those. Maybe 20-25% of already become caged ducks.

Amy: And how do the numbers compare to, for example, like egg laying hens? What do the numbers look like comparatively to ducks?

Wu Hung: Egg laying ducks is about 300,000 in Taiwan. But compared to the meat duck, I think it's about one third or one fourth.

Amy: So that's the difference between a meat duck and an egg laying duck.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: And what about egg laying ducks comparatively to egg laying hens?

Wu Hung: Egg laying hens. Oh, well, that's a big difference. I think it's about ten times more.

Amy: Yes. Okay.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: Okay.

James: Some more like 3 million.

Wu Hung: Laying hens, I think we have 40 million or 35 million hens in each year.

Amy: Wow. Huge numbers, isn't it?

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: And is there something specific you recognize in terms of how the movements evolved over the past few three decades for your work? Is there something significant that comes to mind when you think about the early work in the early nineties through to how you're working on farmed animal issues now?

Wu Hung: I remember our first campaign is slaughter, humane slaughter. So went to visit all the slaughter around the islands, some 20-21 slaughterhouse, because each county has their own slaughterhouse with them, because slaughter is brutal. Right. It's like, you see the image is very strong so that the society or the media or the government can say, oh, this is difficult. Yeah, this is. We need to improve this. So after seven years, the government say, okay, you need to, you must use the stunning, electric stunning for pig, electric stunning for hens, and the captive bolt for the cattle, dairy cattle. So that is very clear and easy to understand. However, the next movement we are working is the farming of hens, farming of a pig or dairy. That is more difficult because people could not really understand. They don't.

Wu Hung: They don't easy to understand why the cage is a problem. We need to challenge the argument about, hey, put the hens in cage. We are easy to handle.

Amy: Right.

Wu Hung: Management is easier than put it in a barn system or in a free range system. So the argument for us becomes more difficult.

James: On that front, I guess when you're campaigning, are you primarily talking about the animal welfare concerns or obviously you mentioned the public health ones around bird flu and also the environmental stuff, I guess. What do you find as most effective when either talking to companies or policymakers or the public?

Wu Hung: Movement is a movement, you need to move. At very beginning, we expose the condition of animal cruelty, the very bad condition of hens or pigs in a store or the dairy cattle in the confined farms, we can gain some beachhead for the movement. And then after a certain while there's limit, then we need to talk, talk about environment, then we need to move our, you know, we then need to move ahead to our area, for example, the food security. And now we need to talk about climate change. So we need to think holistic, we need to see there's always different people, we need touch them with a different, with a different idea or a different story. Yeah. Or different images sometimes.

Amy: Yeah. So like adapting to what's happening in the press, I guess, in the social discourse, like if there's talk about environment, then using the animal welfare message in terms of environment.

Wu Hung: Right.

Amy: And I've definitely heard the food security argument as well, particularly in Asia, and that being quite prominent as a particular angle to discuss when it comes to factory farming. What are some of the concerns that the public might have in regards to food security for animal products?

Wu Hung: Not only security, also food, quality of food. For example, the fish. We have done the campaign, this campaign is not, there's no victory yet. However, the government admit that is a problem, that the people boil the fish, you know, using to tie up the fish from the mouth to the tail to make the fish become a bowl.

James: Oh, wow.

Wu Hung: Yeah, it's very, it's a big suffering. When the government see this kind of a footage and they understand the problem, they say, okay, yeah, this is not the way to go. This kind of practice should be banned. However, they need some scientific proof to tell the government, to tell the industry, this is not only bad to the security, food security, food safety, but also the fish meat is not good. But you know, people like to eat this kind of fish, barramundi is because they think that barramundi is good for the health of the aged people or for the pregnant woman. But if we can prove the quality, the fish meat quality is not good, then, yeah. So just right now, just about two months ago, the scientists proved that the quality of the fish meat from the bowl fish is not good.

Wu Hung: So then, now we're trying to lobby the government, say, okay, you have the, you have a scientific data evidence that you need to really go, you need to proceed to ban for these practice.

Amy: Remind me why they do that Wu Hung, why do they tie it round in a ball shape?

Wu Hung: It's also linked to the people believe this particular fish is good for health, it's nutritious and to tie it up means the fish can last alive longer. So when they buy it from the wet market, it's not dying, but actually they are dying anyway. So these kind of misconceptions also for other. For other animal too farm animal too. For pigs, for example, the pigs or chickens, we have a live chicken, a live market for chickens. We have the live killing in a slaughterhouse. So that is some idea that people believe when you buy the fish is still alive, that is better than the fish you buy when it is died, when they are dying.

Amy: Okay. Wow. Yeah. It's incredible, isn't it? I feel like such misinformation and it seems like the right way to go to get scientific evidence to support your case that, you know, this isn't correct. And hopefully there'll be some government movement there.

James: Yeah, yeah.

Amy: You spoke before about the mooncakes and how the yolks from the ducks were shipped out to, like, across America and different regions. Do you ever feel as though there could be pressure from, for example, activists in North America saying to Taiwan, you know, we would actually prefer it if the yolks from the ducks came from a cage free source or they had better welfare? Do you feel as though pressure from the global North could help efforts in Taiwan? Or is it a situation where influence from the West is, like, not well perceived and would actually potentially be detrimental to your efforts at EAST?

Wu Hung: Depends on what species or in what timing. For example, for the egg laying ducks in the cage, I think it is 100% very helpful if the pressure can be come from North Europe, from America, or from Europe, from the EU, say, okay, we are banning the cage for our laying hens. So if the duck eggs coming from a cage system, then we will stop it. That would be 100% very helpful. We are very welcome for that.

Amy: Okay.

James: And when you're talking to companies about cage free policies, does it motivate them when they see all the commitments from North America and Europe? Is that something you talk about saying, hey, these major food companies are moving this way and do they see that as a source of motivation or do you think that doesn't really work very well?

Wu Hung: I think it works. It will work. However, sometimes we also have some challenges. For example, McDonald's, because they say, you know, McDonald's in EU or McDonald's in America, they have their policy, not only policy set, but also ahead of China, become the cage free act in America. However, because they said the McDonald in Taiwan, they said they are franchise. They are not directly owned by the McDonald's in American. So policy cannot be 100% translated. Yeah, yeah, translated to Taiwan. So we are still having such a problem. However, I do think the global movement, for example, the cage free movement, is helpful. If we can cooperate to each other, we can leverage- using that as a leverage, try to put a pressure in those companies in Taiwan. I think that is good. So global incorporation globally inform to each other, talking to each other.

Wu Hung: I think it's excellent.

Amy: I think another thing I was really surprised about when I came to Taiwan for the Asia summit back in 2019 was in the supermarket. So this was primarily because of the incredible work of EAST. But in supermarkets, actually seeing photos of hens, advertising of hens outside of cages. But also there was actually a television screen showing footage of hens in cages. Is this right? It was like to show the challenges of the welfare issues of hens.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: And also some labels on the boxes of the eggs to- literally of the farmer who has reared those hens, so that you could see literally the picture of the person, which was really interesting from a traceability perspective. I think that was very progressive that they were showing. Like, this egg has come from this person's farm. Can you talk more about that kind of initiative where you were working with a supermarket like Carrefour to really try and get them to invest more in this cage free challenge?

Wu Hung: I think two factors are very important. One is the Carrefour itself. When we negotiate talking to the carrefour at the very beginning, they are very cautious and they don't want to promise and they don't want to say, okay, we will go cage free in a certain years. However, when we meet to compromise to each other, we set a goal, say, okay, about seven to eight years in 2025, they will go 100% cage free. After that, their CSR department is very helpful. They are very active. The idea you mentioned, put the tv, put those up, actually found themselves. So they are very active to do that. Not only that, they also helping us to build up the link to other industry, for example, the bakery industry to the restaurant. So they are very helpful. And another factor is that we set up animal welfare certification scheme.

Wu Hung: And because of that, we can guarantee not only Carrefour to other market that if you see the label, we have the standard, we have the auditors, we do the auditing by ourselves, and it is free. So we don't charge from farmers, we don't charge from the market. So it's 100% guaranteed. So that will make the supplier and the market goes hand to hand. So that is a guarantee for that.

Amy: It was so interesting, and I think with the CSR department getting involved, they actually sent a representative to speak at the OWA Asia summit. It's like someone from Carrefour came and I've never seen anything like it in terms of the company investing their own kind of reputation, I guess, in associating with a policy like this, there was like a full press moment. And do you remember Wu Hung? We had to pull the ribbons and we released like balloons, hens out of a cage.

Wu Hung: Yes.

Amy: It was this really, like- and, you know, it was all recorded and it felt like a very big moment for them. And I've not really seen anything since where the company takes on so much kind of pride in having these animal welfare policies.

Wu Hung: Yes.

Amy: Do you think that is like, genuine, that they're really pleased with that sense of progression and being one of the first and most progressive in Taiwan to have a policy like that? Or do you think there's a sense of, you know, what we see a bit of humane washing, maybe a bit of, like, distracting our attention over here. How genuine do you feel like that interaction was?

Wu Hung: Well, I think the. We should not forget the international movement, the cage free movement in Europe, the ban of the cage in EU, because Carrefour is a french company. So in their headquarters they do have such a policy. But however, in other countries, for example, in Asia, they don't necessarily 100% follow that, however, because of Taiwan. And they become the first hypermarket chain in Asia become to support cage free. So that is part of the reason. And the second reason is the CSR manager in particular herself, is that she did agree. She did see the value, she did see why the production of a certain product, certain food, it's such an appalling condition. So how can they promote their consumer, deserve the best food in their store? And they don't understand the production.

Wu Hung: So when they herself and her team and even her top management visiting the cage egg farms, they are very astonished. So they become one part of their value, not only the egg, but also for the milk, for the pork too. So that is also important too.

Amy: Yeah. So interesting.

James: Maybe we can move on to, I guess, talking about EAST more specifically, I'm curious, you mentioned a few bits of different work you guys do. Obviously, one is the corporate relations, I guess, hence, and there’s a bit of ducks, and also seems like some policy work. I'm curious if you could just maybe give us an outline of the main focus areas for EAST, what you guys work on?

Wu Hung: When we began in the LCA Life Conservationist Association, we mainly focus on the dog and cat, stray dog issues and wildlife. Only after the final number, fifth or six years, we start to think about farm animals. So when the EAST is established after LCA, we really focus on farm animals ever since 2000. So farm animal is our main issue. And after that, we also work for the lab animals because no other groups getting involved with the lab animals. And also we also care about ocean conservation in Taiwan. So these are the three, actually three main areas we work every day.

James: And then in terms of the type of work, is it predominantly government focused and also company focused, or did you also do some work on, like, public education or engagement?

Wu Hung: Well, I think we need to do everything, all of it, you know, policy, legislation, or the education we all need to do. But we only have limited resources. So actually, we are more focused on two areas. One is to research, because we always have spent a lot of resources to do the research, because there's always something behind the scenes, why this industry, why this policy, or why this politician against us? While the officials say, oh, no, this is not a good timing. We need to understand the problem behind the door, behind the scenes. So we need to understand those issues critically, understanding the problems behind. So research is our main area, and the next main area is lobbying, then this is opportunistic. When there's an opportunity, we need to lobby the government or officials or industry or a market.

Amy: Wow. Yeah. I didn't realize there was such a big research arm. But it makes a lot of sense when you're having to back up so much of your arguments, especially if there's prominent figures going against you with probably some misconceptions, as you were saying before.

Wu Hung: There's always some windows of opportunity. So when opportunity is there, we need to prepare, and then we prepare. When there's the time, then we can push forward and we can make some breakthrough. That is how we make many breakthroughs in the past.

Amy: And in terms of your corporate relations work, which we touched upon, I saw the silks commitment, which is the largest publicly listed hotel company, which has just committed to go cage free?

Wu Hung: Regent Hotel. Yes.

Amy: Yeah. What was the process of gaining that commitment?

Wu Hung: One help is also from Carrefour, the CSR manager. Because of the cage free commitment, the Carrefour CSR and EAST cooperate to each other very tightly. So they win a lot of award, CSR award in Taiwan. So they become very famous to other industry, to other area. So she become known to many other business sectors. So then they recommend EAST, so they recommend the cage free eggs. So the Regent Hotel become very interesting. Deputy Chief CEO, she is very active to lobby the business sectors. So, yeah, that's why we make it successful?

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whatever works, right? Like, if she wants to have, like, lots of awards and that's getting prominence, and then she's obviously connecting other people to EAST, like. Yeah, I think that's amazing. Like, it's just another in at the end of the day, isn't it? It's just another tactic, another way to get interest.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: Is Carrefour on track to fulfil their commitment? You said it was 2025. Obviously, that's coming up. Has there been, like, enforcement tracking? Are they showing progress here?

Wu Hung: I believe they try their best. However, this is still a challenge because the Carrefour retreat from Taiwan. The Carrefour store actually sold to the largest food company in Taiwan. UniPresident at the very beginning. We do worry. We did worry about why is the UniPresident will carry out the policy, the commitment. Now we understand. No. Yes, they will carry it out. The name of Carrefour will be vanished after two years. So whether 2025 commitment become still a commitment or not, we are not 100% sure. However, we do see their efforts. They try to promote very hard and they work with us together to do the educational activities to education their consumers. However, we have a different challenge is, for example, when the egg price becomes very low this year, then they see the challenge.

Wu Hung: A certain portion of consumer will turn away the goal to see lower priced egg, cheap eggs. So that is the challenge not only for us, but also for the Carrefour also. So we still need to work hard to make sure that this won't happen, to let the consumer to support steadily so that the commitment can be- come true next year.

Amy: Right, right. And is that CSR person staying on? Have they also stayed in the company?

Wu Hung: Yes. Yes.

Amy: Yeah. Oh, that's good. Like, we need to somehow get her. Get her? Yeah. Could we hire her?

Wu Hung: Yeah. As far as I understand, the UniPresident still support the policy. For example, they have the largest convenience store, 711 in Taiwan. They start to source cage free eggs right now. Yeah, I think the future they will support. There's a question about how long it takes to go 100% cage free.

James: On a similar topic of, I guess, commitments and signals. I remember seeing an interesting email from EAST about like maybe six, seven months ago around a Taipei city commitment to have one- I think it's one cage free egg for each student's lunch. I'm curious to hear more about this. It's obviously, it's very specific, but I think it's very cool because obviously this is the main city and it’s an interesting signal, I guess. How did this come about? And what was your thinking behind this campaign?

Wu Hung: Yeah. Yes. That is a very small step. One student, one egg, one semester. One semester? Yeah. One semester is three months. So it's a very small step. However, I think that is a big step because school lunch is a big market. It's a big quantity if it become popular. We knew the mayor when he was legislator, so we work with other animal protection group. We have some kind of award from animal friendly legislator, and he is one of them. Not for the farm anymore, but for dog and cat, for other, for wildlife. And he is one of them. So we knew him, and ever since he was a legislator and when he started to run in for the mayor election, we also stand by him too, when he said he will have animal friendly policy when he become a mayor.

Wu Hung: So that is one of the policy he promised when he run into running for the mayor.

James: That's cool. I think that's a nice anecdote of, like, a story on why it pays to build relationships with legislators early on, because you don't know who's gonna get promoted and go to a senior position. So if you had build a relationship with them early on when they're mayor. Yeah. That's amazing. So that's a really nice story of advocacy.

Wu Hung: We need to see long way. Long ahead.

Amy: Yeah, long game. Yeah, for sure. What other campaigns are you working on from a legislation side? So on the policy side, what is it that you're predominantly trying to push in Taiwan at the moment?

Wu Hung: Fish welfare. You know, I see, yeah. Fish welfare is new, but it's a big quantity and people really don't recognize fish is also a vertebrate, so that is definitely one we need to focus on.

Amy: And what are you pushing for in terms of fish welfare? What are you asking for?

Wu Hung: First of all, we ask the government to set up a certain standard for slaughter. For example, right now, fish is just killing anywhere, by any means, all kind of a method and in front of the public. So if we still allow the fish slaughter in front of the public like that, then I think the animal welfare movement in Taiwan is still a big loophole there. So we need to fill that gap. So we need to let the people that fish also feel pain, feel suffering. So you need to treat them humanely. So that is a big challenge because electric stunning or stunning of a fish is difficult. And even the scientific research so far is in an early stage. So that is a big challenge for us. However, I think we need to start.

Amy: And did you attempt, have you attempted any legislation like from starting to work on hens in terms of outlawing cages. Did you start there and then you felt like there was a good opening for talking about fish? How did you progress to fish when there's still so much work to be done in the hen world?

Wu Hung: I think they can help each other. You know, when there's opportunity, we can lobby for the ban on the cage system for hens. Or when there's opportunity, we can ban from the egg laying duck industry from building new cage system that will help us for other campaigns too. We cannot only focus on one species. We need to open our mind. Open our mind to all the farm, all the animals. Not only farm animals, but mainly for farm animals. If we can help this species, we can also help other species too. Although the step of progress could not be in the same time, I mean chronically, but it will help each other.

James: Do you work much with producers who are actually producing animals in terms of helping them transition, maybe giving them more technical assistance or connecting them with people? Like, how much do you work with the actual producer side of the supply chain?

Wu Hung: Yes, I think producer, yeah. You know, from holistic point of view, we really need to deal all the stakeholders, all the sectors, and in terms of producers for the land hands, we form the we call cage free alliance. So those farmers, they already become, they transit to the cage free system already. We form them together so that they can help each other. And from there then we can try to reach to the other producers. And when we have the animal welfare certification system, we have another opportunity to reach out those producers. And then because of this auditing scheme, we know there are quite a lot of egg farmers that don't really know how to raise the hens other than cage system.

Wu Hung: This problem also happened in EU and that's why the EU government EU have the research program called the Best Practice Hen by carried out by the Stark Scholars in Netherlands. And that is very helpful. And we are trying to invite the professor in charge of that particular research scheme to Taiwan on November. Because we also found the same problems here in Taiwan. Because when the farmers want to change their system from cage to barn system to free range system or to the aviary system, they don't know how to do it. So when they have problems, the laying hens die a lot. They will say, oh, the cage free system is not good. Cage system is better. So then we need such a challenge. So we need to solve the problem there.

James: You said you have your own certification system, or is that an external kind of third party?

Wu Hung: We have our system. Yes.

James: That's cool. Do you have much luck in using the companies that have already kind of committed and are already cage free to advocate to other companies like, same as the CSR person at Carrefour was almost advocating to other companies. Do you do the same with producers or are people that interested?

Wu Hung: Yes. Yes. Because if you know, for example, one egg farmers, his parents has egg farms has housed 100,000 hens. It's quite a big farms. But when he start to use in the barn system, he can only raise, for example, 100,000 hen in his parents fund. But when he become the barn system, he lost 20% to 30% of number of hens. So his parents would be very worried he might lost the money. But after he get rid of the cage and using the barn system, he not only earn more money, he has more time, you know, to spend with his wife, his children, his parents. And he earn more money and the neighbourhood become less complained about the smell from his farm. So his successful story can be a good example when we try to educate other farmers in other countries. Yeah.

Wu Hung: And they are very happy. They're very willing to talk about their story.

Amy: Yeah. You have to recognize like the livelihoods of the individuals. And I think if there is a way to make it make sense for them, then hopefully it is a much easier ask that transitioning across is not the big challenge that perhaps a lot of the farmers might see at first. There could be advantages to the practices and the ways in which they're able to run the farm.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

Amy: How do you stay motivated, Wu Hung? I feel like there's so many different projects that you're working on. There's a real kind of sense of there being not that many groups in Taiwan working on so many challenging issues right from, as you were saying, like ocean conservation through to the farmed animal issue with a small team and limited resources, like, how is it that you have stayed motivated over this last 30 years?

Wu Hung: Buddhism!

Amy: Circle back.

Wu Hung: We can do this work. I don't feel I'm proud or I don't think I am any excellence. I just say there's a cause and effect and there's always something you can change. And once you make change and that's it. Nothing to, to feel it is only because of me. No, I don't think that is only because of me. I think that's because of endless effort from other courses too. So if you can feel like that. I don't feel any so called mercy fatigue or any fatigue. No, I just feel I just do it. Nothing. Nothing really special. Nothing. I need to worry or to become a burden for me? No.

Amy: Very humble, Wu Hung. But I do feel like you inspire a lot of people in the movement, actually. Like, I know your friend Aaron Ross was incredibly inspired by you and the work that you've done at EAST. So we can definitely see those values being spread throughout the movement with that sense of kind of urgency as well, to get, as you were saying, to keep moving, to keep the- keep talking about the topic, and to try and make as much progress as we can. So, yeah, it's, you know, your career is definitely inspiring others.

Wu Hung: Thank you, yeah.

James: Maybe I'll ask some more stuff on Buddhism, because my boss, who's also a Buddhist, would probably would love me to. So I'll do that.

Amy: Were you gonna say he would kick you? That doesn’t sound very Buddhist!

James: I was gonna say he would kill me. And I was like, no, don't say that. Well, I guess I'm just curious, like, other ways you think it's changed, like the way you do advocacy or maybe the way you engage with companies or with politicians. One thing for me is I feel like, at least through meditation, I feel a bit more resilient. And I really liked what you said about this idea of impermanence, that it can be a positive thing and that the negative things aren't always impermanent and they can also improve. But I'm curious, is anything else that you think it's like, helped you be a better advocate for animals?

Wu Hung: Yes, impermanent. But if you think it positive, negative way, then you can just wait. Right. You can do nothing. Okay. Something will change anyway, right?

James: Yeah.

Wu Hung: However, I think Buddhism, that is core belief. Of course, everything is changed. Everything is inconsistent. Things always change. However, another core of Buddhism is you need to care others. If yourself feel pain, yourself can feel suffering. You don't like pain, you don't like suffering, and you need to care other people, you need to care other lives. If there's pain, if there's suffering, you need to do something. That is the possibility of a Buddhist. Then you need to help to abolish the pain, to mitigate the suffering from others. That is an active way. Active way to understand the core bleed of Buddhism. Actually, not just Buddhism. It's true. Anything is ever changing. Nothing is constant. Always there. Always something is changing. Some moving. Yeah.

James: Yeah. I really like that.

Wu Hung: Yeah.

James: I went to a meditation retreat recently, and the teacher had also been quite involved with climate activism, and he said something very similar. He's like, just because, you know, we have this idea that things are impermanent. Like you said, we shouldn't be complacent. Like we should still be good citizens and like show we care about the world and we care about life and actually do something about it. I guess like, this life of contemplation doesn't necessarily mean not doing anything else external.

Wu Hung: Right, right. Yeah.

James: In that case, we can move on to our final questions. We asked everyone, what's one bit of news you're grateful about or excited to hear?

Wu Hung: We just visited the government officials two days ago. It was the first time we heard from the director of animal protection department. This was a new department, he said, just beginning. Just recently, the top officials already mentioned, yeah, we should start to think about the cage free system. We should start to prepare some kind of plan or policy preparation for that. Although very minimum, very small mentioning, but this is the first time we heard from them before that. They always say, oh, it's too early. Why don't you just go to the consumer, the consumer support, the farmer will change. That is their answer. But right now it's different. So this is really exciting news for us.

Amy: Yeah, amazing. I saw the photo from this. I feel like they love a press opportunity in Taiwan right? I feel like actually if you Google Wu Hung and EAST, the amount of pictures that come up of you at different policy events and different legislative moments. Yeah. Love a picture, don't they? And is there anything you would recommend to listeners? It could be something that you've read or other podcasts you might listen to. And I guess aside from people training to be a monk, anything else you would recommend to listeners that might be helpful towards their advocacy?

Wu Hung: I heard a lot of so called mercy fatigue for a lot of people care about animals, care about animal suffering. I think the Buddhist idea, the thinking of Buddhism is helpful. No, it's really, you see, what is the nature of our sins, the nature of life, nature of what we are doing, nature of everyday life or everyday work. And then I think that will help us, maybe not 100%, but will help us to get away from the fatigue, any kind of it.

James: And then maybe the last thing we can ask is how can people follow your work? I guess. Well, what are the main platforms you use? And are there any ways people could support your work? Whether it's volunteering, donations or anything else?

Wu Hung: Every group need more resources to do things, to carry out more movement, more campaigns more effectively. But I also welcome volunteers, perhaps from different countries or contexts, how we can work together. For example, we mentioned in the duck eggs in North Europe because there's a market, big market there. If the group were in North American or in EU can campaigning for the, against the cage duck eggs, then that would be very helpful.

Amy: We'll link to your website and other information about your work in the show notes so that everyone has some easy access there to check out your site. And, yeah, that important donation page.

Wu Hung: Thank you. Thank you.

James: Thanks so much, Wu Hung. This has been super interesting. Yeah. Lots of interesting stuff covered. In fact, I learned a lot. And if anyone watches on video, well, I recommend everyone watches on video. So you can see Wu Hung’s nice chicken he's got in his video frame, which is very important. Thanks for coming on and talking to us.

Wu Hung: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me here. Thank you.