When the ground beneath you shakes, trust can crumble into dust. That's the stark reality for many who've walked through the storm of trauma, a journey Tina and Ann understand all too well. Do we keep up our walls, open a window, or build a bridge of trust. Our intimate stories serve as beacons for those navigating the murky waters of skepticism, where accepting a compliment or a hand extended in kindness becomes an act of bravery. Throughout this raw and revealing episode, we discuss transforming barriers into connection, while never losing sight of the need for safety.
As we wade deeper into the conversation, the ghosts of generational trauma emerge, challenging us to sever the chains of the past. We examine how personal healing is not just a solitary endeavor but a communal crusade to prevent the cycle from continuing. It's a testament to the quiet power of patience and understanding in fostering bonds of trust that can survive the test of time.
Quotes: "Not let someone else's chaos dictate me." Tina "The trauma isn't our fault, but it's our responsibility to heal it." "Sometimes change happens slowly, but that's ok because direction is more important than speed." "If someone is poking you where you hurt, they don't deserve to be in your life." Ann "Losing trust in self can lead to hopelessness."
When the ground beneath you shakes, trust can crumble into dust. That's the stark reality for many who've walked through the storm of trauma, a journey Tina and Ann understand all too well. Do we keep up our walls, open a window, or build a bridge of trust. Our intimate stories serve as beacons for those navigating the murky waters of skepticism, where accepting a compliment or a hand extended in kindness becomes an act of bravery. Throughout this raw and revealing episode, we discuss transforming barriers into connection, while never losing sight of the need for safety.
As we wade deeper into the conversation, the ghosts of generational trauma emerge, challenging us to sever the chains of the past. We examine how personal healing is not just a solitary endeavor but a communal crusade to prevent the cycle from continuing. It's a testament to the quiet power of patience and understanding in fostering bonds of trust that can survive the test of time.
Quotes: "Not let someone else's chaos dictate me." Tina "The trauma isn't our fault, but it's our responsibility to heal it." "Sometimes change happens slowly, but that's ok because direction is more important than speed." "If someone is poking you where you hurt, they don't deserve to be in your life." Ann "Losing trust in self can lead to hopelessness."
Welcome to Real Talk, where we are taking a look at the world through trauma's lens.
Speaker 2:
I am Tina and I am Ken, you know, being a photographer, I have always had this fixation on how we see the world and as an autistic person, I think I have a unique perspective on how I see the world. But I think really that we're all unique and we all see the world in very unique ways. I think trauma really shapes our optics. Psychology Today lists several ways that we can see the world differently after trauma.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, the article talked about. One of the biggest things that can happen is we have a hard time trusting people. When we've been attacked by another person, it can be hard to know whom we can trust, especially if we were caught off guard. So we might start to suspect everyone, feeling like, if that person could hurt me, why not this person? And then you begin to wall yourself off from others and it's because of protection. You're wanting protection.
Speaker 2:
You know, tina, I can honestly say that trauma has skewed my thoughts, my feelings and definitely how I trusted people.
Speaker 2:
I mean I don't think that there could have been enough walls between me and some other people in really everybody at certain times in my life, because I really just didn't trust them. I always felt like people might have had an agenda or that there was a reason why they were trying to get close to me or say the things that they were saying and, honestly, nothing really measured up. And I think it had a lot to do with how I grew up. I mean, my mom was a really good example of this. I mean she lived one way outside of our walls and then one way inside of our walls and to see people trust her and have relationships with her as if she was a good, really good person. But then, when our doors were closed, watch her do some pretty horrific things, and she would also look right at me and say that those things didn't happen, when I knew that they happened. So it can really make you not even trust yourself.
Speaker 1:
When that happens and this recently happened to me too but when something happens where I'll just share my experience. First, I recently experienced this and I questioned the person who said a situation did not happen when they were right there, sitting right next to me when it did, and then she called me insane and I thought me you for a split second it made me think wait, did it?
Speaker 1:
And I was like, oh no, don't even doubt yourself. Of course it happened, of course it did. But my thought goes to what kind of trauma is that person experiencing that they can't even come to terms with what was really said, what really happened? You know like what, when you talk about your mom, I wonder what kind of trauma response is that. Would you call it denial? Would you call it? I don't know what you call that. Do you know what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean people do pretty horrific things and then I think it's a cover up. I mean I really do think that my mom, I don't know I mean I've seen other people do that. I've had some really really close friends hurt me pretty bad and obviously we're not very close anymore. But I mean I trusted them so deeply when I finally let them in because it took a long process for me to finally let them in and then when they did those things, you know, I've kind of looked back at the betrayals and the lies and the deceptions and I think that a lot of it has to do with covering their own you know what, and they're looking right at you and they're saying this didn't happen, but it did, and I've had a lifetime of that. So it really does change how you trust people. It does.
Speaker 1:
That is so hard, and there have been things like that that have happened to me too. One of the things that I've been questioning myself about lately is, I've realized, going back to what you were saying about trust just a few moments ago. There I have a really really great friend. She's really really great. Their whole family is really really great but I feel a little bit of a I don't know if I don't think wedge is the right word but just a little bit of. I don't know if I believe her when she says certain things like nice things say, even about me. I don't know what that says about me, but it's something I've been really thinking about and trying to figure out. Where does that come from? Like I don't believe what she's saying when it's a good thing, even about my own self.
Speaker 2:
Well, if you catch somebody in the live once you know, I mean that might have something to do with it. I don't know, unless you feel that way just because you feel that way about her.
Speaker 1:
But if you've caught her in, I didn't catch her in any no, oh no. That's why it's like I want. I'm trying to figure out with me what makes me feel like I don't believe her when she says nice things. It must be some sort of trauma response for me, like I block out the good sometimes with certain people. I don't know why.
Speaker 2:
For me. As soon as somebody would start to get close to me, I would keep them at an arm's length. You know, because it instantly triggered something in me, because the people that were taking care of me at the time were the ones that were hurting me. So, you know, it created this thing in me like, oh, you're going to be nice to me, huh, no, I don't trust you.
Speaker 1:
So it must be a trigger that I need to really work through. I won't stay on that long. It just, you know, kind of got my memory going. But I do want to tell you about one of the last times I met with my counselor. She was talking about walls and she told me you don't always have to put a wall up, maybe you could try a window or maybe you could try a bridge. And I got to tell you you like that. That made I'm glad you liked it it made me really uncomfortable. Oh, I felt like she didn't. I felt like she didn't understand why I needed better protection. So in my mind it was like I don't want anyone to be able to look at me or get to me. The wall seems the best fit. Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:
There's people that I would say I don't want a window Right, I'm fine with it, and I don't yeah, I don't wall off everybody, but it is different levels of protection.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you know it really is unfortunate because with our kids and I want my kids to be able to trust people and they're so new in life you know I mean I've been tainted or however. You know life has affected me over the years. But with my kids, you know they've been through so much trauma because I've adopted them and they've been through a lot and I don't want what they've been through to affect how they trust the world. But on the other sense, you know I want them to be on guard and in that weird I want them to be on guard and I want them to be able to have their radars up and figure out what's safe and what's not safe. But it is hard to watch your kids see and see their spirits die, to see how they change is they have experienced trauma. That's really hard.
Speaker 1:
And I don't think it's weird at all because I think it's our job as parents to prepare our kids and I think, just like with eating or just like with anything a happy medium you know they need to know who they can trust and they need to know to have their senses about them. So I don't think that's weird at all, but it's hard enough for me just to see someone be mean to my kids or their feelings. So I can only imagine the added hurt or feelings that in the motions that you feel with what your kids have already been through. I think we all at least all those good parents want to protect our kids as best we can and then give them the tools to protect themselves.
Speaker 2:
You know, scars really don't go away. It's kind of like that tree. You know we've talked about trees before and the body keeps the score. We've talked about that and you know where, even 100 years later, you can look at the tree and you can see where maybe a scar happened or where this happened in the tree's life. And it's the same thing with us. And maybe sometimes the outward scars do go away but the inward ones do not. I think there is a spot within us that is always there. I mean, some of the stuff that I have been through has been pretty horrific and I know it's still in there and I know it still affects my view on people, no matter how much I try to trust.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I agree, and you mentioned the book the Body Keeps the Score. It is deep and it is thought-provoking and it is so good I'm not even close to finishing it yet, but I will one day. I'm a very slow reader. There's so much to process in that book in a great way and it gives so much terminology and it's given me names to things that I've gone through in life or experience that have been very freeing to me. It's been a great resource along my healing journey. So I can't recommend that book enough. Again, the Body Keeps the Score.
Speaker 1:
Now I was told something really fascinating recently. My cousin was telling me that your teeth tell a story. Did you know that? No, yeah, she learned this in college and I looked it up to. The Boston Globe wrote something about it maybe a year or two ago. It talks about if you suffered from trauma very early in your childhood. Your teeth can show signs of it by some abnormal marks like stress lines that are permanently recorded in them, kind of like the tree rings that you just mentioned. It pins points the specific day or week in development that the stress occurred. Is that not fascinating?
Speaker 2:
That is very fascinating. I mean, I have never heard that.
Speaker 1:
And all the things I've ever researched about this, I have never heard that yes, and so look, I want to show you my teeth now. If you see the rings, can you see right on the mark? If you take, I don't have any teeth to take out. I'm just being honest, at least not at this age. But they say you know, that's how you can see it and also that you can see it across like your front teeth here, like the almost, like a, just a faintish line that goes through it and so I don't know. Everyone would be like what is she doing? I don't know that you can see it here, but I can see it at home and it's very early. Childhood is how you can tell from someone. So you can Google Boston Globe. How did I Google to get that article how your teeth show trauma. If anyone wants to look it up, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:
You know what? You learn something every day.
Speaker 1:
Yes, you do, I have no idea.
Speaker 2:
Well, I should just have a million lines on my teeth then I know. Right, I know, yeah, when I look at a tree, I've always really identified with trees. I don't know why. They're just so special to me and it's almost like sacred ground when I'm around trees and what I see and maybe it's some of those books where you, you know, they personify them in a way that makes them so real and like the giving tree.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
I mean a tearjerker, for sure, and it makes me upset when anybody wants to hurt a tree like that. But you know, going back to my kids and us, you know how many people can hurt us before we actually stop trusting. I mean, when does that happen? You know, my kindergarten teacher told my parents, when I mean I was only five years old and we did this thing where she would ask our addresses and phone numbers and all that stuff and apparently I wouldn't give her any information about me, and she said and she was an older teacher she said Anne is the most cautious child that I've ever met in my entire years of teaching and that's really saying a lot.
Speaker 2:
But I mean, like I said, I was only five. So I mean that is young and I had so much trauma before the age of five. You know, foster homes, adopted I was a baby when I was adopted but there was so much that had happened and you and I have talked about previously how young is young, even in utero or whatever. I mean, where does that feeling of not trust occur? No-transcript.
Speaker 1:
Well, like in the Body, Keeps the Score. It talks about how it's passed down generation to birth, if that makes sense. So mom to child, that child to that child. That's why it's so important. I don't know who to credit the quote with, but you've probably heard the quote that says the trauma isn't our fault, but it's our fault to heal it, our responsibility rather, to heal it, and I do believe that. So I feel like if we can heal that, it stops the spread, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1:
And what you were just talking about is something I've experienced and something I work on almost every single day to see more and more and more beauty and see things more like my children, and I will admit, the hardest part for me is trusting after trauma, even people who weren't part of the trauma.
Speaker 1:
I think that's an important point to make is it's not just the people who were part of your trauma that makes it hard to trust them, but that just spills over into anybody else you encounter that might trigger you in a way. You know, I have a friend who it's not necessarily per se that she triggers any past trauma, but I don't trust her because it feels like she's disingenuous. And so I think there's, you know maybe some of it's not all coming from trauma why we don't trust certain people. Maybe it's a feeling that you get when you're with them, but I just know, for me, trust, just for whatever reason, is really really hard. And going back to your love of trees, I love being out in nature, I connect so much with nature and I just think that we're meant to be outside. You know, we're meant to have something that just makes us wow and resets us.
Speaker 2:
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:
Makes your heart beat it, does it? Does they have a special place in my heart. You know what I did, tina, was I took what happened to me. I was abused by some women when I was younger and my mom, and then what happened is I just generalized that I mean I just it got to the point where I didn't trust women and I've always trusted men more than women and I, you know, can just go right up to men and start conversations and it's taken me years to get to where I can have a conversation with women and just be like a peer with them and I think age has something to do with that but also to look at them and possibly have really strong relationships. And you're a really good example of that. I mean at one, but you're younger than me.
Speaker 2:
So my, the fear really did affect people who were older than me and a really I mean it was just horrible. I mean, if an older woman or somebody in authority who was a woman would come into a room, the trust from my past, the lack of, would instantly enter in that room and I would just shut down. So yeah, it would transfer to many, many other women, just about all women, and you know they have that exposure therapy where if you're super afraid of something because of something else that's happened to you, then you can expose yourself to it. But I'm really I wasn't a fan of that.
Speaker 1:
But yeah, I'm sure that works in some cases and not others, for sure.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you know, I was a director of a battered woman's shelter and I can tell you that there was not a woman in that shelter or a child because we had children in there that had been abused too that every one of them, when they were entered that shelter, they were afraid and they were so cautious, so quiet, and it would take them a while for us to earn their trust.
Speaker 1:
I imagine I'm really really glad that my precious children won't have to experience any of the things that you and I did, aren't you? I mean, I am so happy that they will get to see the world in ways I wish I could have. You know, you've stopped the cycle of trauma for them once they came into your home as your kids, and I know that you're working so hard with them through everything, and I think it's such a beautiful thing Hard, messy, but beautiful For my kids. I'm just, I'm so grateful that we are a healthy family and we're breaking the cycles of trauma. I'm working through my own very, very actively, which those are huge wins in my book, and I always say progress over perfection, and it's just continued progress, even if it's slow and steady, little by little.
Speaker 2:
You know, there is no greater gift that you can give someone who has had a lot of trauma than to offer them who you are and allow them to take their time to be able to get to where they need to be to trust you. I think it's. We've talked about trauma knowing somebody's trauma is a love language. Well, this is a really good example of that, and being able to just let somebody get to the point where they really do trust you, you know, and they want to talk to you and just open up and be them with you. I don't think that there's any other. There's no greater gift.
Speaker 1:
I love that and yes it. For example, it took me such a long time to even fully trust one of my very best friends I don't even know when it finally clicked that you can trust her. She is on your side through the good, through the bad, through the hard, through the sad, through the happy, through it. All Kind of like the saying if you've heard, you know when I'm not there, I know that she still hands my back, just something like that. But once I took the plunge and realized that, oh my gosh, what a difference. You feel so free.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you know, relationships that are not forced, A love without expectation. I can tell you I am very particular in who I talk to and who I let in, and so you know I love friendship and connection and relationship, but it is very limited in who I let into my little circle.
Speaker 1:
For time reasons as well. For me, I mean, you only have so much time and you have a lot on your plate. You know we'd rather have several kids and schedules and all kinds of things. But yeah, and I think it's okay to be picky, I don't think we should ever settle. You know, we can love some people in our inner circle and then we can safely love people from a distance outside of that, absolutely. You know, I love talking with people too, but I am really really cautious about what to share, who to share it with. And you know, until we started talking about this, doing this as an episode, I don't think I really pinpointed that some of my trauma could be past. Trauma could be part of the reason why I have trust issues today or why I behave a certain way.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that the only thing that age has taught me is it doesn't matter as much to me anymore as it used to, and I think I always knew. You know unlike maybe you're just figuring some of that out I always knew why I kept people at a distance, but I've reached a point in my life where it doesn't matter as much. You know people can hurt me. I can even sense if somebody is real or fake, or what I want to share with them. I share as much as I want. And really, you know, this podcast is the reason why we do this is because we want to help other people, so it's okay that they can't hurt me anymore, that's. I guess you know they can do things to me to a certain extent and I'm still going to keep people some people at a distance, especially if they've hurt me before. But you know I want to do this to help other people.
Speaker 1:
And absolutely.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I don't think, and I think age has really taught me that it's taken, it took me many years to get to this point actually.
Speaker 1:
Well, you're to a point where you are the epitome of healed and you are someone who is no longer going to be manipulated, and I think those are absolutely worth celebrating. It feels so good to not let someone else's chaos dictate me, so I can agree with you there, wow.
Speaker 2:
You know, oh my gosh, that was so well said. I love it.
Speaker 1:
Maybe I'll put it on a magnet. Wow, it hit me as I was referencing earlier about the person that said something didn't happen. That was right there, like I thought. You know, for that split second I believed her and then I was like, no, your chaos isn't going to dictate me, so I can safely like her love or be indifferent with someone at a distance. I you know there's nothing wrong with just some people. Just aren't your people, it's okay, don't have to be mean to them, nothing like that. But I read something that really kind of I don't know. It just spoke to me this morning and it says sometimes change happens slowly, but that's okay because direction is more important than speed. And that's a Paolo Coelho quote and I really liked that. You know why.
Speaker 1:
You know, trauma takes a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of energy, no doubt, to heal, and I think as long as you're heading in that healing direction, that's all that matters. So doing better for yourselves, that is the goal.
Speaker 2:
And you know, when you go into relationships, or even if you've had a relationship for a while, there's nothing wrong with setting boundaries, and that really is what this is about. So boundaries are a key to starting new relationships, and anyone who wants to poke where you hurt doesn't deserve to be in your life. Oh, that's good. That's really really good.
Speaker 2:
An article in psychology today titled Trauma, trust and Time states they show how lack of trust does not just involve a distrust in other people. It is also a general attitude to the world at large, a lack of confidence in oneself as well as in others, because if you trusted others and they hurt you, you start losing trust in yourself, which can lead to hopelessness. The article states that it affects our predictions and how we feel. They suggest that restoring even a basic degree of trust must be a priority, through small and gradual steps. This makes sense that trauma would lead to an isolation, which would lead to hopelessness. I see building in trust as an exposure therapy in a way, but honestly, there are so many variables with every person that you're exposed to as being so different with their own possible agendas, that I would think trust in small increments and do that gradual build with a person, protect when you feel you need to and let that wall kind of chip away as you are comfortable and I know living behind walls is a very lonely place to be.
Speaker 1:
It's true. Now I am to a point where I agree that some walls are still necessary. They just are. But I'm to a point that some people now can have a window and some people get a bridge. And I didn't like it at first but I'm beginning to understand, because some walls are for protection, not trauma anymore, and the window in the bridge is to let someone in. But when I feel like it, you open the window when you want a gentle breeze and you close it when you're done, because those boundaries are healthy Right.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, there really are people that I think that I will always keep that wall up, and there's people over time. I wish that I could reopen some of those windows and that have passed away. Like my mom, I had walls up with her my entire her entire life and then, after she was, she had passed away. You know, I told you this and we talked about it on the podcast, but her last breath was actually my first breath of being able to finally live and be, but with who I am today, and I never would have got here, I think, with her still around. I've had many, many years now since she's passed away and it's really interesting that I would love to have the conversation with her now about everything. I've lived up that window and tried to let her back in in a different way because I'm a different person.
Speaker 1:
So Well, maybe she's getting a view of that from her window.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and you know, when you protect yourself so much, you're also keeping everything at a distance. You're keeping everything at a distance from your kids even because you're protecting them as well. And I know that because I did that with my older two with my mom. I wanted them protected from her and I wouldn't let her in very much and I wouldn't let her get too close to them. So I don't know, but there were choices that I made and I can't second guess myself because, if you know, I was on the stage.
Speaker 2:
You know you have to trust yourself at some point. You have to trust yourself when those radars are going off. Our past actually caused us to know when something isn't safe and we have to pay attention to that. And we have to trust ourselves when we get those radars and say you know what? I need to pay attention to this, protect myself, protect my kids, put up those walls. We have to do it.
Speaker 1:
You're absolutely right. Well, next time we are going to talk about how trauma changes the lens. We usually end with a quote, but I feel like we've had so many great ones within this episode that I don't think we need a specific one, don't you? So go back, listen, write it down.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely. You shared some really good ones in this episode already, so we really appreciate it. We're just so grateful that we have each and every one of you. Thank you so much for listening to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
