The unspoken pain of Secondary Trauma: What is it and how does it affect us?

Every time we step into the recording studio, we carry with us the stories of those we've met in the most unexpected places—like the battered woman's shelter where Ann once worked or the shadowed hallways of the courthouse where Tina and Ann witnessed the heartbreak of a murder trial. These experiences, though not their own, have left an indelible mark on their psyche, and today we shed light on the pervasive yet seldom-discussed phenomenon of secondary trauma. We navigate the complex terrain of absorbing the pain of others, from the silent struggles behind closed doors to the glaring headlines that shape our world.

Our conversation is not for the faint of heart; it is an honest foray into the often invisible emotional toll taken on those who bear witness to the suffering of others—like friends, nurses, counselors, social workers, police, firefighters, and journalists. We share personal anecdotes and professional insights, unraveling the INVOLUNTARY process of internalizing trauma and the profound empathy in our bonds with survivors. Yet, with this vulnerability comes the realization of the need for boundaries and self-care, a delicate dance that many in helping professions must master to preserve their emotional health amidst the storm of human hardship.

As we wrap up our heart-to-heart, the focus shifts to the societal ripple effects of traumatic events—be it the generational echoes of COVID-19 on our children, the haunting memories of 9/11, or the chilling normalcy of school lockdown drills. But even as we confront these harrowing truths, there remains a thread of optimism, a belief in the goodness that persists in people and the world. Listeners, you're invited to join us on this journey, to find the courage to acknowledge secondary trauma and discover the pathways to healing, because sometimes, the most significant steps we take are those that lead us back to ourselves.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Tina.

Speaker 2: 0:03

And I am Anne. You know, I recently watched this show and it really doesn't matter what it was about, but there were two words that stuck out to me in this and it was secondary trauma. You know, I heard those words and I thought what exactly does that mean? I mean, it really intrigued me. So I started Googling it and I learned that we all, I think, have secondary trauma, and I especially know that I have in the past. So I just thought that this would be a perfect topic for us to talk about today.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Secondary trauma is basically traumatic stress that is brought about just by hearing about someone else's trauma. For example, I used to be a director of a battered woman's shelter and I did that for quite a while and I can remember with the amount of trauma that we used to hear, even in the hospitals and sometimes with the kids to hear even in the hospitals and sometimes with the kids. We have to check in with ourselves quite often and say how are you doing? How are you doing? Because we would work eight hour days and, you know, five days a week and it would get a lot to deal with that amount of traumatic stress. You know, day in and day out. So you know it's a real thing that you can hear and be involved with somebody else's trauma and it affect you.

Speaker 1: 1:30

You know, which takes us to how much trauma is in our world right now and how it's affecting our everyday lives.

Speaker 2: 1:37

There is just so much trauma that's going on in our world right now and it can affect people who just hear about the trauma that others are going through, like even on TV. I really believe that it can affect survivors, witnesses or people that are helping others. It can affect people to the point where they go into full PTSD symptoms anxiety, depression, anger, guilt, numbness, according to secondary trauma symptoms, causes and treatment and it's an article in PTSDinfoorg.

Speaker 1: 2:15

When you were talking about even watching something on TV I can relate to. I loved and loved the show, the series this Is Us, and it was so good. But I will tell you that I knew in the final season what was coming. I knew that their mom, rebecca, was going to be losing her battle with Alzheimer's, and I was not able to watch those last several episodes until months after they originally aired, because I'm going through it with my mom, and so I had to wait until I was ready and finally I'm like I'm ready, I want to see how it all ends. And so I watched the last maybe four episodes and I sobbed my full head off.

Speaker 1: 3:11

It was such a beautiful, heartbreakingly beautiful transition of how it shows this life into her going to the next they. They did it on a train, you know. They showed like the trains getting faster and faster, meaning that she's you know she's going quick now and it was just. It was just such a beautifully done, hard, real life thing that they showed and portrayed, and so much so that I wish I did or could have reached out to the producer and been like wow, thank you for showing it in such a. It was just a tenderly beautiful way. It was really I saw.

Speaker 2: 3:57

I've seen that show and I couldn't watch the last season and I don't have somebody was all with's, but I have had a lot of loss and I could feel where it was heading and I just stopped and I don't know what that says about me, but I can't watch animals that get hurt. I can't watch anything vulnerable, anything where people elderly, you know, and you know things like that. It really deeply affects me. It affects me where I hurt and so you know I can't watch it. And maybe it is that secondary trauma or that PTSD from my past and it's coming together by hearing somebody else going through it. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1: 4:47

You know, I think healing, I think it's a process and maybe that's part of it. You know, there are days where I'm okay with certain things. You know certain parts of trauma or the past, and then there are days where I'm just not, and you know when you can take something else on or watch something, and I think it's just part of life and knowing your body Well. According to PTSDUKorg, primary trauma refers to the initial trauma that a person experiences. Secondary trauma refers to the trauma that someone experiences as a result of supporting someone else who has experienced primary trauma. And I don't know how to. I don't know if there's a term for this, but I feel like, if the primary person is experiencing trauma, trying to talk about it with a friend who had previously experienced something that triggers a secondary trauma, it goes back on the primary trauma person, who then is like well, who do I talk to then about it? I almost think that there's a conflict there.

Speaker 2: 6:04

Right.

Speaker 1: 6:06

Well, how do you know what to share and who to share it with, especially what, if you don't know if someone has a past trauma that this then triggers? I just think it poses an interesting question.

Speaker 2: 6:18

Well, I know at the Battered Woman Shelter and I and normally any job that you work in this kind of a field and you do the check in behind the scenes. I mean the people or the person you're trying to help is not supposed to know that it's triggering you. I mean you don't let them know, hey, this is affecting me too, and you know you help them or do whatever you're doing and then go somewhere else and help process.

Speaker 1: 6:47

Well that, yeah, that does make sense. I just think it's a hard situation to be in if you want to share something with someone that you love and trust, you know like a friend, but then it also triggers them. How do you then work through that together? Just something that I was just thinking about and don't have the answer.

Speaker 2: 7:06

To be honest, Well, you know, it always led me to this life of wanting to help people because of the pain that I had, and so that has been my main purpose in life and it doesn't affect me like it used to.

Speaker 2: 7:20

I can sit across from somebody and they can talk to me about all their hurts and pains and it really doesn't bother me. But if I sit down and watch a TV show, it affects me in a different part of me and I'm not really sure why. I find that really interesting. It is interesting, you know, when I worked at the Better Woman Shelter, we had to help a lot of kids who had witnessed their parents be abused, and it can be so profound it's like it happened to them, you know, I mean, and it kind of did, because they witnessed it. But they take on the hurt of their parent, the mom or the dad, whoever's the one that's getting abused at the time, and it sometimes can be so significant that you go, or they would go, into shock and experience the same PTSD symptoms as if they were the primary victim. This can also be called vicarious trauma.

Speaker 1: 8:37

This can also be called vicarious trauma. So, tina, you kind of talked a little bit about it. Is there anything else that you know of that has really affected you and put you into a shell shock, as if you are going through it yourself? But something that's coming to mind that I don't particularly enjoy having done to me, and that I don't really even do to my kids, is tickling. I feel like tickling can be torturous, you know, you tell it's funny as a parent, you're like stop.

Speaker 1: 8:58

You know, when someone says stop at least we teach our kids this when someone says stop, you stop, Stop is a complete sentence. No, is a complete sentence. But somehow when, like you're tickling someone, they're like stop, stop, stop. And like, my husband will do that to my kids and our kids and he'll tickle them and they like it until they get to a point where they're like stop. And I always remind him and I'm real firm about it I'm like you stop. This is what we teach them at their time to stop, stop. But I don't like to tickle my kids and I don't like it to be done to me because it feels like an act that I can't control and get out of and it's hard to get people to stop tickling. So I don't know, maybe tickling is like a thing of the past or should be, I don't know but I don't love it and no, I don't either.

Speaker 2: 9:47

It feels like a type of control, and and I, and, and, and you're telling them no when they keep going. I think that there is a violation there.

Speaker 1: 9:55

Yeah, I feel I feel like that too. So it's really interesting that we are talking about this today's secondary trauma, because I've been wondering what's happening to me at certain times, wondering, you know, sometimes when there's a name put to things, somehow that gives me peace of mind and I never realized. Is it just because I'm an empath? I mean, I really pick up the energy and feeling in a room. I really do, and that's really hard. But sometimes when I'm with my mom, if it's a really hard day, I feel like I'm experiencing the same thing and I don't know that. So that's what's so hard about this awful Alzheimer's disease is it's not just like a one-time thing. So I'm not saying death is easy. What I'm about to say is that there's an ending with death and then it's like a part, a point where you can start to move forward.

Speaker 1: 10:48

But with this disease it is ongoing and it feels like I just repeat this cycle of trauma every, almost every time I see my mom, and so I don't know if I I don't know now if that's primary trauma or secondary trauma, but I like, I just feel it. I feel it both, yeah, which it's weird to feel them both at the same time and it's messing with me. So I can relate to when an incident in sports like happened to us and then it happens to someone else that we know and care about, you know that you're close with, to someone else that we know and care about, you know that you're close with, and that just triggers memory or the feeling or where you were when it really happened to you, how you felt all of those things. In the case of work and being a journalist, we covered the capital murder trial and there was one in particular. I would say I didn't experience I don't know, maybe I did secondary trauma from it. It's just. I will never forget what my eyes saw in the testimony of a young boy.

Speaker 2: 11:54

I don't know that that's traumatic, I just can't forget it and in that trial you know when I was in the courtroom and I got to know the family quite a bit and I'll tell you what I do think that there was some secondary trauma that came out of it. I think that a lot of us did, you know, when you and I covered that story. You know, sometimes as journalists we are thrown in to the thick of a story as it's happening and it's so fresh. It is like journalists sometimes are on the front lines of trauma and we've talked about how it felt when we went through covering that case and I think it did affect us. We will never forget it.

Speaker 1: 12:43

No, I never will. And you know, as I'm thinking about that case again, there is something that really bothered me, outside, I guess, of the trial itself, and I'm trying to think of the best way to put it. I was very young at the time. I was, you know, in my early 20s, and I had to read a book on how to cover a capital murder trial, because it was my very first one and I ended up covering it for the national media Didn't know that was going to happen, I thought it was just for our local station. Well, I think one of the things that bothered me more maybe not more equally maybe is there was an attorney in that building who was hitting on me. Yes, and I was engaged. Was I married at the time? I can't, I know. No, yeah, I was engaged though.

Speaker 1: 13:39

I mean I had my ring on and everything, and I just remember it was a lot older, a lot on and everything, and I just remember and he was a lot older, a lot older, yes, and I just remember feeling like, and you know, and this is so true I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm like, I'm so out of my element trying to cover this.

Speaker 1: 13:58

I didn't come wearing anything provocative, you know, I've never been that way, and I'm just trying to do my job and I'm thinking shouldn't you be trying to do yours, right, you know?

Speaker 1: 14:15

Instead literally felt like I was being watched and sought after as you and I and our other media friends were having lunch sometimes, and I was so comfortable, because then you have to try to talk to this person to get information, and so I mean, that's something that I won't forget either, and I, you know, I. What I don't like and it ties into what we're talking about today is I almost think people who have money and status think they can do whatever they want, and some young blonde girl is just going to go along with it, and that's just not how I roll, you know, and I think that's what bothered me the most is what was he thinking Like? I was just going to be like, oh yeah, you know. So that felt traumatic for me, on top of covering this awful case, you know, as my very first time, and then being thrown into the national media. I had no idea that was going to happen.

Speaker 2: 15:09

So, yeah, I mean you did an amazing job handling all of that, by the way.

Speaker 1: 15:15

Thank you. As I'm thinking about it now, I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean, I was so hyper focused, thankfully, on my job that I think it hit me a little bit more a little bit later like, oh my gosh, the depth of all of it, right.

Speaker 2: 15:30

And he was a jerk. I mean, he was in a power position and he thought that he was above it all. So, you know, I showed him. Yeah, yeah, you did, because you put him in his place and so that was pretty great, yeah, but it would have added to everything else that we were going through and you know, hearing and we there were times that you and I were talking about him instead of the case.

Speaker 1: 15:59

I know I'm like how do I get him to leave me alone? I mean, I can't not. It's my job. You know I can't not just go to the courtroom. You know I didn't ask for any of that.

Speaker 2: 16:10

Can't help when you're beautiful, you know, I know when you got it. You got it right, Tina.

Speaker 1: 16:17

It was really what I had in my 20s.

Speaker 2: 16:22

You know it was really hard to watch the things in the courtroom and, and you know there were times that we were there for 12 hours and trying to just decompress everything and just go home and then try to fall asleep. I mean it was a lot.

Speaker 1: 16:38

It was definitely a lot. And you know, part of me always thought I'd be a great detective, or maybe even a great attorney. You know I wanted to do that be a detective, yeah. But I can't sleep at night knowing something is unsolved. I mean that would just ruin me, and so I've never done it.

Speaker 1: 16:58

I think I'd be really great at helping solve the cases, but I don't want to see what people in that line of work have to see. And so that brings me to. You know, I remember being in that courtroom and crying over the testimony that I was hearing and some of the pictures that were shown. I was not at all prepared to see real life things that before I'd only seen in make believe movies, okay. And so I remember some fellow reporters telling me you know they could see I was so shaken up about it to not look at the screen anymore and that if I needed to know something they would fill me in and tell me for my reports, because I was just so young covering it at that time and you can't unsee something once you've seen it.

Speaker 2: 17:57

You know, one of the things that really affected me on that case was I went out to the search to help search for this woman who was at that time missing, and so you know I helped go look for her and then when it turned out the way it did and you know it was it really added another layer to go to the search.

Speaker 2: 18:24

And you know what also really bothered me you want to talk about people that are inappropriate when they're doing their job, one of the things you know these people were going through something absolutely horrific and one thing I learned then and forever that I would never be that journalist that put their microphone in front of their faces, the victims, the people that are going through this trauma and say how do you feel about this, what is this? And they would be chased down the street after the courthouse, and I remember watching journalists chase them into a garage, to their car, and I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, they just heard all this absolutely horrible things in a, you know, in the courtroom and they just want to be left alone, and so people just kept adding more and more layers of trauma onto that. So there was so much you know I would, and afterward I talked to quite a bit of the family and there was a lot of secondary trauma that was going on there for sure, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Just gosh for a lot of us, for those, for you and me, who feel the way we do and been through what we've been through, and for that family, all of the families involved as well. I mean, it definitely wasn't just a story to me. You know these are real people.

Speaker 2: 19:49

It was personal, it really was. It became personal because these were real people Right, they always are but that particular case we actually got to get to know them a little bit, so it was harder. You know, I had eight years of covering stories that put me in people's homes right after a trauma and, honestly, it changed me a lot. It made me more compassionate, it brought me to my knees many times and it shook me many times. I can remember being in the home of a family of 11 whose mom just dropped dead and the littles were taking care of her. I'm talking three was the one that was taking care of the ones younger than him because all the others were at school at the time and this family invited me in their home days after it happened. And I think it puts you in a situation where you feel you know it's a privilege and it's an honor, but yet you go in there and you feel the depths of their pain in your soul.

Speaker 1: 21:06

I mean it is an empathy that goes all the way to the core of who you are. Yeah, man, oh, that's rough. There have been times I've covered stories of loss and I just don't want to be there because you know you don't want to ask those questions because you already know how they're feeling. And I've been in places where I shouldn't have been because it wasn't safe for me to be in, have been escorted kindly out for my own safety. But I think you're absolutely right and I feel this way about the world of addiction. Addiction has rocked our lives multiple times and so I feel, you know, I've really had to work through, I guess, that secondary trauma when helping others in this way.

Speaker 1: 21:49

There was a time where I remember driving and hearing after my third cousin had passed away in five months from addiction. I remember, you know, I was so angry and I'm like, why do you allow this to happen? And then I heard that song and I think we talked about this do something is what it's called, and you know it's basically saying um, we were put here, you know, to do the things that we feel called to do in our hearts and so to help in ways that we feel called. And I remember then, shortly after that, a drug coalition was being formed in the community where I worked and they asked me to be a part of it and I remember not feeling ready at the time because I was like boy, this is just so raw and real. The coalition has since dissolved and, uh, but it was great for the first. You know five years or so that we were a part of it. We really did some great things and it did help heal my heart to have people with the common unfortunate scenario play out that played out in our lives. But for a long time I remember feeling triggered by, you know, trying to meet people and talk about it.

Speaker 1: 23:05

And you know I have people that will talk to me about addiction. And I have people that ask for advice on what to do with their other friends that they have or family members experiencing deep grief. And I have people asking, you know well, some advice about Alzheimer's and care. That one still is very traumatic for me. And I have people that will ask me listen, I just had a friend who's lost a baby.

Speaker 1: 23:32

You know, what do I do? You kind of I've just I've learned that it's. I have some answers that I go to because I've written about this before. Just do something, as that song says. Definitely do something to help someone in need, but at the same time, make sure that you're taking care of yourself too, because I don't think that you know. I think it's okay to say you know what? I can't help you with this right now, because it's so fresh for me or it really stirs something up in me. If I think of something, I'll let you know, or maybe you could reach out to so-and-so, because our well-being matters too, and you never know. I don't think at least I don't know when I'm going to be triggered.

Speaker 2: 24:23

I don't think at least I don't know when I'm going to be triggered. Well, you know, this reminds me of in treatment, one of the things that you learn and then they have the family members all come and they actually have their own Al-Anon and things like that where it helps them. But the reason for that is also because when people are doing this the person in treatment, the person in alcohol or drugs they're getting better, but you're stuck back here still and, as you know, you're still sick, as you could say, because you've still taken on all of what they've gone through and which has also affected you. So you have to heal together. It's just really important.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yeah, it is. You know, addiction in particular is a family disease. You know my husband recently he works for the utility company and recently got called out for storm duty and it happened to be in my old stomping grounds where I grew up, and he told me that he drove by my old house, which he'd been to before. My family had to move because of my brother's addiction and everything that was happening and to protect themselves and their property and him. And I've not been able to go back there since then. And it's so interesting, something that can hold such a special place for you can also hold such painful memories of someone else. Even though what he did doesn't define me, it's still.

Speaker 2: 26:04

I can't, I don't want to go back there yet, just you know, across the way, and my mom had this thing about hating that she had asthma attacks or whatever it was that was wrong at the time. She would go in and I would listen through my walls with her getting beat, beat. I mean to the point where I thought that she died and in my young mind I really believed, you know, when it stopped she was dead and I would actually go into her room and I would check to see if she was still alive. You know, I mean it was, it would happen often. So I can. I know what it's like to Listen even To somebody else getting beat and how it can really affect you, Even just through the walls.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Yeah, sometimes you don't even need to see it to know what's going on. That's so true.

Speaker 2: 27:25

The article with PTSDinfoorg says that this is an involuntary internalization of someone else's pain and there is no choice, even involved at all, when this happens, when a person's pain reaches your soul.

Speaker 1: 27:44

Wow, it's so interesting. It is Taking that in yeah, Just really taking that in and I know that the article also mentions empathy. It creates an emotional bond, leaving that person vulnerable to absorbing the survivor's distress. This can also happen with repeated exposure. So the more you're on the front lines of an event or helping a friend through a trauma, the more it can affect you as well, and that's kind of what I was talking about earlier. You know, between friends. So it's hard to separate a lot of times when helping someone going through a tough time and that lack of boundary and how it can bring more intense emotion to another person's trauma over time.

Speaker 2: 28:28

It's hard when you see somebody in such dire situation or in a lot of distress that you want to help them and they call you, they call you, they bring you into their situation over and over and it's hard to set a boundary, because you really do want to be there.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Right, and then that's what I was talking about earlier too is then what does it do to the friendship? If the person who's experiencing the primary trauma is talking to the person, that then it gives secondary trauma to and the person who's being talked to, then it triggers them and they try to tell that person that, hey, I'm so sorry, I I can't take this on right now. And then the original person who wanted to reach out is like but who do I talk to? I don't understand. And then I think it creates, you know, like, like either this and the friendship or a wedge between because the primary trauma person isn't understanding the secondary trauma.

Speaker 1: 29:33

I really do think that in a lot of cases, yeah, absolutely I think so too, it's a trauma triangle. It is. That's what's happening. Yeah, I don't know that that's a real thing, but that's what it seems like to me.

Speaker 2: 29:41

And there's so much of it going on right now that it's kind of hard to separate, even in the world that we live in. Is this secondary trauma or is this primary trauma? Because I honestly think that it's becoming enmeshed.

Speaker 1: 29:52

Yeah, I can see that yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:55

You know I've absolutely helped people in my life, that I have internalized their pain, and I think part of it was that I had a history of the trauma and I do think that that adds when you have unresolved trauma.

Speaker 2: 30:09

You know I wanted so badly to help them before my own trauma was healed, and that's important. Helping someone with their trauma before yours is healed is probably not a good idea and I think that that added a lot to that re-victimization that we've talked about in past episodes. But that was really not my intent. You know, I have always felt, like I said, this deep need to help others. I have the boundaries now that I didn't have back then. I was not able to separate their pain from mine and I felt their trauma as if it was happening to me, and now I'm able to go into traumatic situations and keep healthy boundaries and check myself. You know that is so important when you're helping other people. If somebody else isn't checking you to make sure you're okay, you have to check yourself and say wait a second back up, check yourself.

Speaker 1: 31:06

Yeah, and going back to that article, it talks about having adequate coping mechanisms and a sufficient support system when helping others, and having those in place helps manage emotions. I know that my counselor, who I had used many, many times she even told me about you know they have to take time off and they take, maybe you know, a couple of weeks off at a time when they just need a break, because hearing about other people's troubles and problems and traumas all the time can really weigh on them. So it's a real thing.

Speaker 2: 31:36

You know, our kids, this generation that's growing up. I believe that they all have secondary trauma, from school shootings to COVID. I mean, just imagine going to school as a young child, or even a high school kid who can't go without a mask on, or you're going to get something and you could die, and you see people who are dying because of this disease and you don't have control over getting it because it's just everywhere.

Speaker 1: 32:06

That is so true and just the you know trauma. My sons were very young when COVID hit and just being pulled out of their classroom overnight and the whole world just changing and what's going on and none of us really understood at the time. We thought it would be for two weeks and it ended up being years, and you know that that in and of itself is an experience that I don't think kids will forget, and teachers of those years too. And so I tell my kids, I say I think that you're both very special and your classes will both be very special, because you were among the first to be in primary school when it happened, and so I think that teachers will always remember that particular class because of how it all shook out and how COVID started. So, yeah, I think everything you said is just spot on.

Speaker 2: 33:03

You know, it's kind of funny because back in our day or I'm older than you back in my day and your day, I think we felt safe for the most part going to school, going to the mall, you know, and we just don't. The scariest thing that we thought that we would get would be cooties, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:20

Yeah, or we're like uh, we have to go and do a tornado drill and a fire drill, like you complain about it. Yeah, yeah, but we never thought about somebody getting shot in school. You know, I try not to watch the war going on in front of my kids. If I ever have it on, I always have it off when they're around because I don't want them to know or see these things. You know, I still want them to be as innocent as possible because they feel things so deeply. Kids are so sensitive and I honestly think that most of our kids are growing up with secondary trauma, like I said, and I think generational trauma can also be considered secondary trauma, because, you know, our parents went through stuff. They pass it on to us, which then we pass it on to our kids.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Oh, I hate that part. I never knew about that until about 10 years ago that that was a thing and man, that is. That is so tough, especially because you know I believe you know my mom in particular really worked hard in some ways to move past her trauma and in a lot of other ways I think that it really stuck with her and is part of why she has what she has going on now. So I hate that it can be passed down I, you and not, and I'm not talking that, I'm not even saying necessarily that it repeats. I'm talking about literally genetically or however. That all works. It somehow is passed down and that just blows my mind.

Speaker 2: 34:50

Yeah, I really believe in that being an adopted person because I know that a lot of similarities you know from my biological mom and then a lot of the things that happened to me after I was adopted it kind of came together and created me. You know I'm okay now, but it for a while I was quite a mess and yeah, I do believe that there are genetic things that are passed down.

Speaker 1: 35:17

That yeah, it's a real thing, yeah, and, and I would say and I may have said this in another episode it's not our fault what happened to us, but it is our responsibility to heal.

Speaker 2: 35:28

You know, I recently talked to a teacher who said that they don't know yet. Going back to COVID, they don't know yet the effects that COVID had on our kids and they call them COVID kids. And I asked the teacher well, what's the age on COVID kids? Because I've got a seven, a nine and an 11. Well, he's almost 11. And it's like, yeah, I mean I guess all of them would be. They were all young enough to go through that and feel the effects of having to wear a mask every single day to school and if you got the sickness you had to swab yourself. And if you had COVID, you know, you had to be quarantined and nobody could be around you or your parent. And I mean that's, that's scary.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Yeah, I think the swab was pretty traumatic in and of itself. To be honest, it was.

Speaker 2: 36:25

It was. I think that that's something that they're going to tell their kids about. I mean, this is it was a time to live in, for sure. You know, there's another thing that really affected us, and I remember it like it was yesterday, and that's 9-11. And anyone that lived through 9-11, how old were you?

Speaker 1: 36:46

I was a senior in high school.

Speaker 2: 36:48

Oh wow, so I'm sure it was pretty traumatic for you as well.

Speaker 1: 36:53

I remember exactly where I was. Interestingly enough, I was in government class.

Speaker 1: 36:57

We were in the middle of a debate and we got the phone call and they wheeled in the TV on the cart and turned it on. I'm being so honest with you. I was so naive Initially. I did not understand what was going on. I was like what's a terrorist? I was so dumbfounded why. I did not understand any of it. Honestly, I don't know that. I do understand any of it still to this day, but I remember then kids calling their loved ones I feel like maybe one or two people had a cell phone or the teacher let them use theirs to call and say, oh my gosh, are you safe? Because they had family that was in New York at the time or that lived there. And I remember they let us go home. And it was just a day that I had so many questions about.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Yeah, my kids were in kindergarten and first grade and I went and got them. My husband's brother was in the Pentagon and he was a football field away from where the plane hit and we did not know if he was alive or dead and his wife couldn't even get a hold of him and he was underground. They had moved everybody underground and he had actually helped pull bodies out. It's quite the story. I actually did an article about it and got to interview him. But you know, my husband sat there for two days rocking in a chair looking at the TV, waiting for to hear if his brother was alive. And I, you know, it still, I think, affects us to this day. You know, in general as a population it's still so sensitive. I went to New York and I saw the memorial, but I can't go in the building because it's just not something that I can relive. I don't want to relive it.

Speaker 1: 39:01

Yeah, no, not at all. And you know, I was wondering, as you talked about your husband's brother's wife, if she ever is triggered by secondary trauma, if he ever or someone ever doesn't answer the phone. You know.

Speaker 2: 39:15

I wonder if that takes her back. Yeah, you would think so. I mean, she actually has a story and a half because she was raised in communist Germany and it's really an amazing story that I got to also tell that he was on one side of the wall and she was on the other when the wall came down and that's how they met, oh my God. And she came to the United States to marry him. So she is still very, you know, has that communist Germany in her and it took her a long time to understand the freedoms of our world and to have something like that happen and have her husband missing for even just 24 hours because of a terrorist group and this free country that we have, with an amazing military and everything. It probably shocked everybody because nobody thought that something like that could happen.

Speaker 1: 40:16

Right, and I think that ties in with school shootings. Never did I hear about them until Columbine.

Speaker 2: 40:26

Right, yeah, I can remember that day. I can even remember what we were doing that day when we found out. And I don't know if that was the first school shooting, but it feels like it was. It seems to me like it was the first one that I sat in front of the TV and watched.

Speaker 1: 40:44

Yeah, that was horrific, and now you hear about them so, unfortunately, frequently and I know that so many districts are doing everything they can to try to ensure safety and I hate that recently our kids had one of those lockdown drills and I just I hate it, I hate it.

Speaker 2: 41:02

So much, and that's what we're talking about here. I mean that all has to create a secondary trauma. It has to. I mean I don't think some of our kids get it. I mean we just were at an event last, you know, November, for Christmas, where something happened and there was a shooting and we all had to run and hide under stairs.

Speaker 2: 41:24

And you know, I mean, it's just the world that we live in now and I really do think that we're living in a secondary trauma primary trauma world and it is all kind of coming together.

Speaker 1: 41:38

Yeah, I think so too, but I still believe more good than bad. Oh, absolutely, I still believe that you know we can. I don't think we have as much control sometimes as I would like over the things that happen in our lives, but I think of the things that we can control. We can still make it a beautiful place to be. You know, I still think the world is beautiful and the majority of people are good people. They really are. I just I try to remind myself. But again, going back to, we always wrap up with a quote, and I'm going to say it again it's not your fault what happened to you, but it is your responsibility to heal from it, and I think that's so important. And and healing comes in a variety of ways. So there's no one right answer, but find what helpfully works for you.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Yeah, with secondary trauma. I want to just go back to make sure you're checking on yourself, create those boundaries that you need to, and don't feel bad about it, because you have to take care of you first. It's that thing that we talked about before, tina, in other podcasts, where you have to put your mask on first before you help somebody else, and you're no good if you're not taking care of yourself first.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 42:53

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I know that this was a really heavy topic, but I think it was a good one.

Speaker 1: 42:59

Me too. I think it's something we need to talk about and I think that there's healing and giving a name to something for sure, and maybe we can be a resource for a hard conversation that might come up and you could say no, this is a real thing, I heard it on Real Talk with Tina and Anne.

Speaker 2: 43:15

All right, well thank you again and we will see you next time.