Tales from the Departure Lounge

#45 Eunice Simmons (The Tallest Tree)

• Nick Cuthbert

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Professor Eunice Simmons (University of Chester) is our first Vice Chancellor on the show! Proving we have listeners at the top of higher education food chain (one for the haters) this episode takes listeners on a trip to the tropical forests of Borneo, digging the Channel Tunnel and close encounters with a jaguar in Belize! 

The tallest trees in the forest often face the strongest winds - so what's it like to be a Vice Chancellor? What about a female Vice Chancellor? This is a fascinating insight into the vision, values and life-balance of someone leading by example and wanting to influence change. We are honoured to have Eunice as a guest, and she doesn't disappoint. 

Final boarding call: Sabah, Borneo

Tales from the Departure Lounge is a Type Nine production for The PIE www.thepienews.com

Nick:

terrible start.

Andy:

Do you want me to record it again? That's my worst one yet.

Nick:

Welcome to Tales from the Departure Lounge. This is a podcast about travel for business, for pleasure, or for study. My name's Nick and I'm joined by my co-pilot, Andy. And together we're gonna be talking to some amazing guests about how travel has transformed their. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the journey. Welcome to the podcast.

Andy:

Hi Nick.

Nick:

Andrew.

Andy:

Uh, so we've had a little bit of a break, in fact we recorded some of these episodes quite a while ago.

Nick:

An extended break.

Andy:

An extended break. This one is with our first vice chancellor. This is Eunice Simmons from the University of Chester.

Nick:

We both used to work with Eunice at Nottingham Trent University, so we know her well.

Andy:

but it was a while ago that we spoke to her. So I opened up my notebook and I take notes when we're talking to guests, the notebook says, sense of home,, Borneo, dip carved trees, elephants, logging trunks, Jaguar umbrella, forest bathing. Rituals, Scrapbooker, Japan, Citizen Students, Tree Woman.

Nick:

Wow. You're going to reduce our first vice chancellor guest to tree woman.

Andy:

I mean, if that doesn't make you want to listen to the episode, what does?

Nick:

more clickbait phrases I've got written here. Child smuggling. The channel tunnel.

Andy:

yeah?

Nick:

cause I've been editing it. It is a fascinating insight into the life of a vice chancellor and Chester are One of the great success stories in the UK sector at the moment, they are growing their international numbers. They are winning awards. And Eunice is just a brilliant speaker

Andy:

It's truly impressive, what she's done and what she continues to do.

Nick:

And, like all of us, just has this passion for travel, she takes us back to this beautifully romantic days of supervising PhD students in the Borneo jungles.

Andy:

Measuring trees, living in huts, encountering wildlife,

Nick:

Right, you're gonna have to write the outro.

Andy:

She's VC who wards off big cats with umbrellas. Let's get some tales from the Departure Lounge from Eunice Simmons.

Eunice:

people talk glibly about education being transformative. It's a really easy phrase to say. Every university claims it as part of their mission, but I have absolutely seen that in reality all around the world. there is definitely misogynistic behavior in our press. Women vice chancellors get far more bad press than, the male vice chancellors. Certainly my predecessor, I've had more criticism, for sure. And women leaders tend to, we judge them more harshly. I got back to Changi Airport, and they wouldn't let me out, because they thought I was smuggling children. I knew that there were jaguar in this forest and I did hear one slightly too close for comfort. I thought, what, what use is an umbrella against a jaguar?

Nick:

So before we get into the episode,

I want to tell you about the pilot of events that are happening around the world in 2024 and how you can get involved. The next stop is the pipeline north America in Boston, on the 19th and 20th of November, just two weeks after the presidential election. if you want to participate, then check out the PI live.com for more details on tickets and sponsorship. now let's get on with the episode

Andy:

Eunice, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you.

Eunice:

to La Datu

Andy:

The first question we always ask our guests is if you could take our audience anywhere in the world, where would it be and why?

Eunice:

on the east side of Borneo, Sabah. and then traveling from there, some, 60, 70 K into the forest to see some of the tallest trees in the world. Certainly the tallest tropical trees.

Andy:

Wow, so uh, what took you to Borneo?

Eunice:

Well, I was lucky enough to, have Royal Society funding to go and sponsor some PhD students and support them in their research. One of the PhD students, Glenn Reynolds, I mean, shout out to him, he's now Director of Southeast Asia Rainforest Research Project. And he stayed there ever since the 90s when I supervised his undergraduate dissertation in diptericarp trees So he's an amazing leader and has supported that whole project and there's some fabulous local foresters who also did PhDs with me and other colleagues.

Andy:

So this is on the ground field work in the forest. Are you living in huts, in tents?

Eunice:

there was a research station there, so the accommodation wasn't particularly primitive. It was just a long way from anywhere else. so you had to take everything with you and obviously the electricity, was generator, so it was all a bit iffy. but the research, was collecting seed from these huge trocar trees. And the seeds are like golf balls. Yeah, I think golf balls with long ears. That's what they're like. And they have to be collected, literally in nets, very early in the morning before any animals get them And then they're planted up in a nursery and Glenn created the first nursery there to grow these trees up. And then they're planted out. Meanwhile, other ecologists are all surveying the remnants of the forest post logging. So the project was forest absorbing carbon dioxide emissions initially. Very early audits of carbon, all the stuff that we now take for granted some of the early data comes from those sorts of projects. This was the 90s, and that project taught us a lot about rainforest ecology, rainforest restoration for sure. I mean, sad that it was logged in the first place. These are amazing, beautiful, beautiful trees. Imagine hugely tall trunk, taller than most buildings, and with great buttresses. So the picture of you standing there, the human being is tiny compared to these giants in the forest. So they should never have been logged for things like plywood. now they're cleared for oil palm, it's another whole problem. But these researchers were successfully reforesting thousands of hectares of forest. So now those trees would be tens of meters tall. So one of these days when I stop doing what I'm doing now, I will get myself over there again and try have a go at measuring some of these trees.

Andy:

This amazingly specific information setting you up for being a vice chancellor of a UK university. It's

Eunice:

experience though. I mean, you fly to KK, Kota Kinabalu, lots of your listeners will know that. And then you go across the island, to Laodatu. And you're driving against the, the logging trucks in those days were coming out literally at you on what was, pretty narrow roads, lots of, uh, sheer drops at the sides of the roads. And the training was you had to just pull over. You don't expect them to negotiate because they're carrying many tons of timber coming down the hill towards you and they have right of way basically. So very exciting.

Andy:

they're unlikely to stop. Or can stop, probably.

Eunice:

That's, they probably can't stop. I mean, I don't think, I think the load would just go straight through. So, uh, fascinating and loads of great wildlife. And we read elephants, trampling the plots, civets, snow leopards, all that sort of stuff. Really interesting. Yes,

Nick:

the orangutans, of course.

Eunice:

I was very fortunate to see a lot of orangutans, in the wild and also where there were some very good reserves where you could go and visit them. I had a lovely, lovely encounter one, one day because what I had done we had a one year old on By the time I went on one of my supervisory visits, uh, and we went to Singapore, my husband and I went to Singapore with him. First big trip with a one year old, and I think lots of your other listeners have said having kids completely changes if you travel, for sure. Anyway, he was very well behaved, but we got there, got to these friends in Singapore. My husband stayed with our son, and I, tried to go to Borneo, and I got back to Changi Airport, and they wouldn't let me out, because they thought I was smuggling children. They couldn't understand that

Andy:

My

Eunice:

I'd be going out as a scientist to East Malaysia, you know, to actually do some work for a week, and then come back and see my one year old. Honestly, they put me in the little room at the airport and guilt tripped me about this. And eventually they rang our friends and my husband had to make our son cry on the phone to prove he was still in Singapore. So anyway, we, why was I telling you that? I think I was telling you that story about having my son. So just finishing on that one. One morning, uh, I got up really, really early and I was feeling, that was when I didn't have Theo and I was feeling really, um, odd First time away from a child. That's a really strange experience And I was sitting having the cup of tea on this little balcony looking over beautiful borneo rivers Borneo when you fly over it has these massive rivers. It looks like a geography lesson basically because The Ulusagama,, such a full river. And I was watching the trees opposite, and there were fig trees opposite, and I saw this mother orang, and it just made me laugh because she had her son, I think it was a little boy, held by the ankle. And she was stuffing figs into his mouth.

Andy:

Ha

Eunice:

She just looked right across at me. And we had this total bonding experience as I was just watching this breakfast routine on the other side of the river. Just absolutely gorgeous.

Andy:

Talk us through a day in the life of a researcher in the forest. What would happen?

Eunice:

Well, first of all, you have to sleep well because the night is noisy. if you've slept in the tropics in the middle of a forest, you will know what I mean., in fact, there's wonderful streaming, but if you want to, experience it, you can experience that,, in your own home now. You have a, what is usually a warm, noisy night that you have to get used to sleeping, then it gets up pretty early. And, have your breakfast. And then you get out, you go out, usually don't walk out to the sites because they're too far from the, center. So from memory, we would drive out there and we'd really be very clear about what we wanted to do because of it's hot, you haven't got any extra energy to faff about, whereas when I was doing that sort of ecological research in, I don't know, the North Downs of Kent, we could sit there and look at the channel and think about what we were going to do actually in the tropics. She had to really organize because you have to get on with it, know exactly how long it's going to take you, have enough water with you, have enough refreshments, and then get back to the research station. And then you'd get back after,, a long day of either measuring or helping plant and, surveying. And then you'd have tea and what are those ring biscuits called,, that they love in Malaysia? They're absolutely fab.

Andy:

Not party rings, that's something else isn't it.

Eunice:

No, they look a bit like that. I can't remember what they're called, but tea and biscuits was a big thing at the end of the day.

Andy:

Is there a protocol? Did you get briefed on how to be around animals, jaguars, whatever else was in the forest?

Eunice:

Well, uh, there weren't jaguar there. Not that I met. I have been in close encounter in, um, Belize with jaguar in the Mahogany forest. This was years ago and there's been plenty of science been going on there since. So there's, it's very well managed and the wildlife are paramount. They come first, it's their habitat

Nick:

hang on, Eunice, did you just say you've been stalked by a jaguar?

Eunice:

In Belize, another good trip, I had, I was lucky enough to have a sabbatical with the Caribbean Conservation Association. Now,

Andy:

that sounds like a good gig.

Eunice:

Fabulous, another great organization. And, I visited Belize and I was visiting mahogany forests. Again, another restoration project. And I had to get back for some reason. The transport was going back into Belize City and I had to get back. for it. And the guys hadn't finished what they were doing. So they gave me, the only thing that they had was an umbrella because, in the tropics when it rains, everyone uses umbrellas. People don't have coats or anything. So they gave me this umbrella and they said, you will be fine if you just walk down that path. And, in X minutes, you will get back to the pickup point. I knew that there were jaguar in this forest and I knew what they sounded like and I did hear one slightly too close for comfort. So let's just say I jogged back to this car. I thought, what, what use is an umbrella against a jaguar?

Nick:

It's such a British response swinging your umbrella. Yeah.

Eunice:

What was I going to say to her? I was pregnant at the time, actually then, um, we've got two boys. And so I, uh, I was very keen not to get caught out.

Nick:

Eunice, do you know Bronte Neeland? She's a PVC international at Swinburne

Eunice:

Yes. Has she been on your podcast? I think she has. Yes.

Nick:

she painted this romantic view of. forests and the energy there.

Eunice:

So forest bathing is a thing now. People make money out of having forests and people visiting and literally absorbing all the sights and sounds and the peace of the forest. But you don't actually have to go to the tropics. I'm chair of Mersey Forest, which doesn't sound at all exhaustive, but it is an outstanding environmental project. It covers 10 local authorities from the top of Liverpool, all the way through Liverpool. So planting trees right up near that iconic waterfront in Liverpool all the way down across to East Cheshire. And there's great research showing that you can save the NHS an awful lot of money if you give people access to trees and tranquil settings and places that they can actually properly engage with nature for a reasonable amount of time. Safe places, beautiful places with some wildlife. It should be on everyone's doorstep.

Andy:

Hmm.

Eunice:

We deforested our country in medieval times, you would all have been forest people, we would have been a forest nation, but we lost all of that tradition, 500 years ago, when we started building ships and houses out of large trees.

Andy:

And they take a long time to grow back, don't they?

Nick:

As children, we would go and play in Sherwood forest. We would go and run around and hide and seek in, in the forest, which is a pretty disappointing forest. It's not that big. It's a, it's a woodland area, but, there's something about the ferns and the light and there's a project there, which was Sherwood pines, where they reforested the area, and now it has so many multi uses and lots and lots of people really love that area now.

Eunice:

Sherwood is an evocative name, isn't it? Sherwood Forest. And Robin Hood, they go together. It's evocative of culture. That's part of the forest culture, which we've lost in this country. I had, an interesting experience trying to talk that through when I went to Japan once. So I, I went to do some lectures in Japan, and one of them was about people and conservation projects. I was doing a lecture, and they put your name up in lights, but it's in kanji characters. So, A, I wasn't sure I was actually in the right room. B, I was rather surprised to find such a big audience, because what I was talking about was you know, flora and fauna in the UK, and why it was so important that people worked on conservation projects, the public, to help conserve all this. Because it wasn't a thing in Japan then, that people were involved in conservation projects. So I do this lecture. thinking all the while, is this really my audience? eventually somebody came along who I recognized literally near the end and I was heartened by that. And then I got a round of applause and then they pulled back, the wall dividing from the next room and there was a fabulous buffet. It's only the Japanese know how to lay on these things. set pieces, amazing food. That's what everyone had come for. I'm pretty sure they hadn't come for my lecture about Boris. We had a very jolly evening nonetheless.

Andy:

You mentioned that you're the chair of Mersey Forest, right? this is something that fascinates me with vice chancellors, is that they're obviously running. huge organizations, but then they get embroiled in lots of other projects and memberships. Can you sort list off all of the things that you're involved with outside of the university? Yeah.

Eunice:

Environmental Association of Universities and Colleges, that's nationwide and Ireland, and that brings hundreds of organizations together to try and support them becoming more sustainable and more put more sustainability into the curriculum. I chair something called TASER, which I helped set up, Transforming Access and Student Outcomes. That's funded in England by the Office of Education. for students. And that was with King's College and the Behavioural Insights Unit. And that's when I was at Trent actually. with NTU. We started that from there. So those are the biggies that I'm involved in. I, I get drawn into lots of other things because I've always done volunteering projects. at the same time as any job that I've done. the North Downs I was on the board there. an area of outstanding natural beauty. And actually, while I was doing that job, um, the Channel Tunnel was being built. Do you know it's 30 years since the Channel Tunnel? So I know we were talking about going to far away places, but I love going into Europe by train. I mean, I am a great train buff. I did, five years going to school, in Berkshire by train. And I think I've just Love it. And I could do all my homework on the train. So I could, wherever I am, I could work on the train. So the Channel Tunnel was being built, what would that have been? Ninety four it opened. And we were overlooking the site, the construction site, from these downs. They were trying to work out what to do with all the spoil. So they're digging the stuff up out of the tunnel, and then they designed this huge platform sticking out into the channel. And where I was working, Y College, which is the University of London, taken over by Imperial College eventually, one of the projects was to work out what this could do. soil, I guess you'd call it, substrate was going to be like and what you could plant on it. So one of my colleagues, Dr. Jonathan Mitchley, he led all this research and we had an MFC student who was doing the testing of the salinity. So one day we went down to this site, the construction site of the Channel Tunnel. We had our little sample bags, little trowels, because they were shoveling the stuff out. The machines were as big as a house and I can remember one guy looking down from his huge machine at me and shouting, Oh, thank God you're here. We'll be finished by lunchtime. We had little plastic bags of our samples. It was really great. But a real privilege to be part of a massive engineering site. And then this area now called Sam Pye Ho is a country park. So all the grasses that were tested by the scientists, were then planted on this area, and it's now a really superb access area, just near the Channel Tunnel. So yeah, happy 30th birthday.

Andy:

The next section of the podcast is called Any Laptops, Liquids, or Sharp Objects. And this is where you get to share any travel hacks you might have, or advice for fellow travellers.

Eunice:

I used to take, far too much stuff thinking I had to have things for every occasion and most of the places in the forest you don't need to dress up anyway and most of the other places you can actually go out to a shop and buy something far more interesting. Don't know the pack is my sole thing.

Andy:

You need some Deet, I imagine. Yeah.

Eunice:

wristbands or something. you need decent repellents, for insects and you don't go out when they're going to bite you the most.

Andy:

have any rituals when you travel? Are there things you need to do?

Eunice:

Apart from needing my earbuds now, which I've got quite intolerant of people, snoring next to me on the plane. Um, apart from that, I'm, I'm Yeah, pretty easy, Trevor. I get, I get too panicked now about the timings. I get to places far too early. So we have a little station near my house. Literally, I can see it from my house and I still get there about 20 minutes before the train does. My family teased me about that. Well, you know, why is that? I just need to be at, be really prepared. I used to be a last minute merchant. I'm not now.

Nick:

Do you keep journals Eunice? As a biologist, Would you keep records and notes? When we worked together at Nottingham Trent, I remember you used a dictaphone quite a lot

Eunice:

I did. I've still got some of those, actually. I found them. Medium what you keep. I found those little tapes the other day. Uh, I've always tried to use technology to help. Now the phone camera is just my, it's more my journal now, to be honest. I'm still learning plants. You can never learn all the plants in the world. So if I go anywhere I see something, I, I try and identify it. Um, so. I did used to keep journals a lot. And then I think it was the electronic diary, the way I suddenly realized, actually, I've got a list of everything here. it will be in some format. So one of these days I will put all that in order. I used to do scrapbooks. So my early trips to the States, I still got great. record of being a teenager and all the people I met. I went for a year, to an American high school when I was 16. I'd done my, what would be GCSEs now. They were O levels in those days. And there was an advert on the wall when we were just doing our final exam. And I was reading it instead of finishing the paper. And it said, write an essay and you can go to America. for free for a whole year. So I thought, Hmm, I like to do that. So I wrote an essay, got awarded this place after interviews, etc.

Nick:

Whereabouts? Are we talking rural

Eunice:

Upstate New York, yeah, that was the first trip that I'd done by myself. I went off from Heathrow. My family waving me goodbye. And then one friend's mother had come to see me off. And she pushed a box of Maltesers at me. and said, Oh, have these for the flight. And there was a, strike unbeknownst to us, a catering strike. They hadn't told anybody. So we get on the flight and there's no catering whatsoever. So this box of Maltesers made me the most friends the whole two rows around me, much their way through this. We got to New York where I had the exciting experience of having my first hamburger, which I absolutely loved. And then I flew to Albany and never looked back. Had a great year in American high school,

Nick:

We've had a few academics talking about having to eat the chocolates that they brought as gifts,

Eunice:

Yes,

Nick:

as a

Eunice:

That's its survival mechanism, yes. Maybe that's one of the tips. Always have something to eat in your hand luggage.

Andy:

The next section of the podcast is called, What's the purpose of your visit? So why do you do what you do?

Eunice:

people talk glibly about education being transformative. It's a really easy phrase to say. Every university claims it as part of their mission, but I have absolutely seen that in reality all around the world. I've seen people who start from, one perhaps less obvious place and then they end up having a fantastic career. They end up maturing, they end up being amazing. And so our strategy at Chester is called Citizen Student because I am really interested in how people are when they have come through their education experience. That's what I'm interested in. It isn't about collecting badges particularly, it's about being changed as a person. and how the institution can help you, give you some chances to, to experience that and to grow.

Andy:

pretend we're American students. What are the top five things that we should come to Chester for?

Eunice:

the top five things, first of all, is the all round attention to, your student experience. And I can say that, you know I'm evidence based, Nick, you remember this. We've just won the WhatUni Student Choice Awards for international students, best in country, best for undergraduates, best for postgraduates, best for student support. Second overall, so very pleased with that. 91 percent in the International Student Barometer, and that matters. That's a good survey. and it's because, so come back to those five things. Real attention on your student experience. We actually really try and work out what that lived experience is going to be like, every aspect of it for those students. Chester's only a couple of hours from London, so you still get to see London. You go to Liverpool, which is a fabulous city. Manchester, all within very easy reach. Wales. Four miles from campus.

Andy:

I went on a school trip to Chester when I was young, and they said there's still law in Chester that you can shoot a Welshman with a longbow from the walls of Chester. Uh,

Eunice:

are some archaic practices, in Chester for sure. it's got some wonderful old fashioned traditions. I'm not sure if I was Welsh, I'd call that a wonderful tradition, it's really historic, but it's also, our university is very progressive indeed. we're starting a new medical program, and we will have a really good mix of international students and home students in September doing medicine. We're trying to be absolutely up to date with curriculum even in this really historic setting. So we call it Modern Learning Historic City.

Andy:

Nice

Nick:

strapline. Yeah. What I have to say Eunice is that you're so positive. You're such a breath of fresh air. There's so much doom and gloom and negativity about the higher education sector and some of the universities and their outlooks. But you're winning awards. You're so proud of what you're achieving for the local community and for the international community.

Eunice:

Well, I've been lucky because I've worked in six universities now, large, small, modern, prestigious, teaching intensive, new, whatever. so I have a view of different types of education and what I'm trying to do at Chester is work with, the great talent here, the great people here to amalgam, if you like, to make Chester the best amalgam of all the other places that I've worked. And if I don't know what I'm doing at this end of my career, then, you know. I should know. I should know what I'm doing.

Nick:

We have so many metrics that are focused on employability within six months of graduation courses prepared with industry and, with a specific career in mind. But what you've alluded to there is that things change, that people mature, and that we can't always plan everything. How do we reconcile the two there? And do you think students understand that?

Eunice:

Students are getting to understand it. it's very straightforward. If you come to be a nurse, you train to be a nurse, but do you know what, what you also have to know about management? You have to understand something about money because a lot of the pressures on the NHS, the decisions are made about money. So what we try and do is give students a chance to develop things outside. their curriculum, because you can't cram everything into the curriculum. We try, and we've got a huge amount of employability. So do other universities. Everyone puts employability in the curriculum now. So those snooty days of when people said you were just all about the subject matter, those have pretty well gone in most universities.

Andy:

On a personal level, did you always want to be a Vice Chancellor? Did you always have that ambition to be in leadership of universities? Yeah,

Nick:

school science teacher at

Eunice:

was I did, I did two years, because I knew I liked teaching. Um, I did two years, uh, teaching science, which I loved, but I missed research. So I went back and did a master's course. And as a result of that, I started teaching straight after that. Then I was asked to apply for, research assistantship, at the University of London, so I kind of found my way into lecturing, and I love the university sector because it gives you the chance to teach, but it also gives you the chance to help develop the students and also develop knowledge. and get involved in research and knowledge exchange. Knowledge exchange has been what I have done mostly rather than, uh, you know, deep research. did I always want to be a vice chancellor? I didn't even know what a vice chancellor was, I guess. It's not the usual thing in a careers office. I knew I wanted to be in education. pretty early on. and it developed because, I liked organizing things, managing things, and I've always looked after student affairs as well in any job that I've done.

Nick:

I would suggest as well, you love to influence change and sometimes it can be very frustrating if you don't have all of the powers and permissions to be able to do that directly. So the natural step is to keep going up the chain of responsibility to be able to influence more.

Eunice:

Think that's a really good summary, because of course, when you start in a career, you don't understand how you, how to influence, you don't understand what the levers are, and you don't understand why common sense doesn't prevail. And I kept finding out that what I thought was common sense and other people were, wanting to pursue didn't happen. Why didn't it happen? Because the structures didn't allow it. And we literally construct these organizations and then we forget that they need to remain flexible and adaptable. We built them for yesterday in a sense, literally and metaphorically. So the challenge of being a good leader is to try and work with the grain of that and modernise enough to make sure the institution stays up to date.

Nick:

So when will you be running for prime minister?

Eunice:

Ha ha, I'd love to have been a politician but I think I might have left it too late. Absolutely,

Andy:

come on.

Eunice:

absolutely.

Andy:

I speak to a lot of universities and they often have a sort of internal narrative which is about being slow and, but then, you know, COVID happened and, oh, we're teaching everything online next week. Um, you know, there is a dynamism that, that exists, but like you say, I think sometimes it's just the structures that prevent that.

Eunice:

I think we prevented ourselves because there, there was an imperative. There was a survival imperative, not just individual health, the survival of the health challenge. There was a survival of organizations. I started my job at Chester, uh, in 2020 in January, just as COVID was kicking off. And we had students from Wuhan. So I met somebody who'd had COVID by mid January. And they didn't call it COVID then, they called it Wuhan flu. And it eventually became evident that this was all the same thing and it was going to go large. I didn't predict a pandemic any more than anybody else did, but I did know that there could be reputational damage to the institution. So I cancelled Chinese New Year, in Chester and the local paper ran this headline, North Korean leader comes to university. So,

Andy:

Oh,

Eunice:

you know, so you have to, you have to step up and face whatever challenge it is, but eventually everybody realized that they did have to stop things and put people in quarantine, etc. So the New York Times rang me up and said, why are you quarantining people? this is late January.

Nick:

COVID was, an incredible time for all of us, but to be the head of a community, like a university, your head must have been spinning.

Eunice:

It was a crazy time and it was a good job. I'd worked in big organizations, but I still would have done things differently, no doubt, but everybody stepped up. It was a great way to learn an organization every level. I got to know pretty well how that university worked within three months.

Andy:

Crash course.

Nick:

What's it like to be a public figure? That's what vice chancellors are. And often in quite negative lights, the British press love to, talk about,, executive pay or,, what people would do differently.

Eunice:

It can be frustrating because one doesn't always get a right of reply. So I got criticised, for example, for living on campus during COVID. So I had a bed set created, which literally is adjacent to my office. And it got known as, um, uh, well, I can't remember what they called it. Like some luxury, uh, apartment or something, you know, like really? it's a bed set. So I was really, I was criticized for that. And yet being there meant I could keep an eye, there were students there and I could keep an eye on how we were managing the students who had to stay because lots of international students could not go home. so. Coming back to your question, I felt frustrated about criticism, which was pretty unfair. And also, there is definitely misogynistic behavior in our press. So women vice chancellors get far more bad press than, the male vice chancellors. Certainly my predecessor, nobody ever criticized, I don't think he did. But, I've had more criticism, for sure. And women leaders tend to, we judge them more harshly. And I say we, because women can be as hard on women as, you know, as anyone.

Andy:

The last section of the show is called Anything to Declare. This is a free space for you to talk about whatever you'd like.

Eunice:

don't take yourself too seriously. I think, get some good people around you. So I have a fantastic senior team, really outstanding. so surround yourself with talent. be confident. I don't allow anyone to talk about that phrase imposter syndrome. I just don't. my mother had a very, good education, but my father left school at 14. He came from a, a very small terraced house in Manchester. And, his university was the Second World War, and the Air Force, so don't be held back. your background does not define you. It absolutely doesn't. Because, as a biologist, I know that you are a mixture of both your parents and your environment. So mix all that up and you can make anything of your life if you are willing to put yourself in a place where there are opportunities.

Nick:

something that we haven't covered, which I'd quite like you to cover, is this phrase, Mickey Mouse degrees.

Eunice:

I have two things to say on that. First of all, Mickey Mouse degrees started when people criticized media studies degrees, but if you actually look at the cultural value and the economic value of the, of the cultural industries, they are huge. So whether or not you need to do the full media degree to contribute to that or indeed an arts degree, we. challenge creativity at our peril. What did we all do and need in COVID? We needed other people's creative content to get us through the day, didn't we?

Nick:

Yeah.

Eunice:

there's no such thing as a Mickey Mouse and disparaging sense in terms of a creative degree. Uh, the second thing is. The outcomes that, uh, you know, you can measure from a degree you know, five years afterwards or salary after X years. That's only a fraction of what students actually get. It still shows going to university is worth it, particularly for women. but you get a lot more than the actual outcome of the degree. So the criticism of institutions is, potentially valid in the sense that they need to always be looking at their quality metrics. And if there are degrees which don't seem to be meeting those, they should be challenging, closing, changing, whatever. But the mark's got to also be set by the universities and not external people and pundits in newspapers that think they know what the value of education is because they were educated in a different era.

Nick:

We've got to look forward and how we're going to tackle the world's problems, really.

Eunice:

100 percent and the institution's degrees need to be positioned as such.

Andy:

Awesome. Eunice, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you.

Eunice:

be flying right over to La Datu

People on this episode

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Andy Plant

Host
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Nick Cuthbert

Host