Tales from the Departure Lounge

#46 Damien Page (The Full English)

• Andy Plant & Nick Cuthbert • Season 3 • Episode 46

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A working class hero, Damien Page (New Buckinghamshire University) is a Vice Chancellor who isn't interested in anything other than making a difference to real people, in the real world. He joins the TFTDL flight crew to tell us how a full moon party in Thailand started a voyage into education that transformed his life and many other along the way. 

Like three grumpy old mean, we reminisce over what was the golden age of travel and education. From food tours to food poisoning, we cover everything from the full English breakfast to seeing a cow for the first time. Proper podcasting, for proper folk. We continue. 

Final boarding call: Bangkok, Thailand

Tales from the Departure Lounge is a Type Nine production for The PIE www.thepienews.com

Andy:

Boom We continue

Nick:

Hear me now

Andy:

In our rewind.

Nick:

Welcome to Tales from the Departure Lounge. This is a podcast about travel for business, for pleasure, or for study. My name's Nick and I'm joined by my co-pilot, Andy. And together we're gonna be talking to some amazing guests about how travel has transformed their. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the journey. Welcome to the podcast.

Andy:

Today on the show, we're joined by Damien Page. He's the VC of Buckinghamshire New University.

Nick:

Another Vice Chancellor.

Andy:

Another leader. He's a different kind of leader though, isn't he?

Nick:

He's very different, Imagine if Ray Winston was your Vice Chancellor. I think that's

Andy:

We came into our sphere of consciousness because he's very outspoken and, voices his opinions quite freely on social media, which is a breath of fresh air.

Nick:

there's no airs and graces. He speaks his mind. Some might find it controversial, but I think others will just find it refreshing.

Andy:

He talked about his early life and it's always good to get a journey, isn't it? On a travel podcast, he literally goes on a journey of discovery, which. Was the foundations of his career now

Nick:

The epiphany at the full moon party.

Andy:

and he hadn't traveled anywhere before that. but now he's going everywhere around the world, eating everything he can, and searching for places to retire.

Nick:

He's a foodie. That's for sure. we talk food tours and food poisoning. And his dislike for the full English breakfast abroad. He insists that travel is a class based pursuit, he's also determined that education shouldn't be class based.

Andy:

A warrior for the working class, if you're looking for a different type of leadership voice within higher ed, this is a really good episode to listen to.

Nick:

We're like three grumpy old men. Reminiscing about a golden era of education and travel and life.

Andy:

He's the newly appointed VC and voice of working class leadership in higher education, outspoken, community focused, and he loves a good food tour. Let's get some tells in the departure lounge from Damien Page.

Damien:

I'll know my life's come to an end. If I ever go abroad and have a full English breakfast washed down with a pint of, British lager. Travel is class based, I don't care what champagne you had. What did you see? What did you experience? You know what I mean? Who did you meet? as you get older and stay in better places. It dilutes the travel experience I still remember with such clarity. Well, I say clarity. it was a full moon party, as much clarity as you have after a full moon party. I am turning that grumpy old man, cause I'm sitting there and I'm listening to myself, what's wrong with you.

Nick:

So before we get into the episode,

I want to tell you about the pilot of events that are happening around the world in 2024 and how you can get involved. The next stop is the pipeline north America in Boston, on the 19th and 20th of November, just two weeks after the presidential election. if you want to participate, then check out the PI live.com for more details on tickets and sponsorship. now let's get on with the episode

Andy:

Damien, thanks for joining us.

Damien:

Great to be here. Thank you for inviting me

Andy:

The first question we always ask our guests is if you could take our audience anywhere in the world, where would it be and why

Damien:

as a question. Um, probably still Thailand. spent a long time traveling out there when I was a younger man before I started a proper career. I haven't been back for about 24 years, so it's well overdue. And it's just the country that I still have a deep affinity with. So yeah, definitely there. Although the long flights are getting harder and harder for me.

Andy:

and what took you there first time?

Damien:

boredom, mainly. Um, I was, I was working in recruitment. Bored as hell. Got a really good bonus one year in the recruitment agency. Soon as the bones cleared in my bank. Went down to the bank branch, saw it was there, went back, handed my notice into my boss and bought a one way ticket to Bangkok. I'd never, and here's the thing, I'd never been abroad. grew up in a, you know, traditional working class family. We didn't have the money for holidays really, we went to Cornwall. and I wanted to spend an extended period of time and I thought, well, where's a good place, where's the money gonna go furthest? And back then everyone was going to Thailand, this was back in 1999. There was a kind of buzz about it. Everyone was going there. I thought, that sounds good. first time on an airplane at the age of 23, 24, I was there for five months. up and down Thailand, went to Vietnam, Cambodia, ran out of money. And that was probably the only reason I came back.

Andy:

So that's probably not what your employer was looking for when they gave you that bonus was for you

Damien:

No, I think they, they thought it might secure my continued employment, but no, there was just no chance. I was just so mindless, the kind of work and it was in logistics. I was dealing with lorry drivers all day and, um, I mean, my dad was a lorry driver, so I know the type. they're interesting characters.

Andy:

say never been on a plane, never been overseas. And then you land in Bangkok, that must have been quite a, attack on your senses.

Damien:

It really was, you know, I mean, I, I've been to London, um, but nothing prepares you for Bangkok. If you haven't been abroad, I think you need, it's the sort of place you need to ease yourself into it. and I didn't, it was just full, full immersion, uh, landed,, you hit with the heat, the, you know, the different smells it was so visceral and I think that's one of the things I love about travel. It's just so visceral. You remember smells, decades later. you remember the feeling of the heat. the kind of humidity you remember, you know, walking to your hotel with your backpack on and walking past an elephant going down the road, it's the, it's those kind of first impressions. It's just, it's visceral, So Bangkok, yeah, stayed there for a couple of days, then, did an overnight coach up to Chiang Mai up in the north of the country. Very different vibe, very different feeling, cooler, more laid back you used to walk into WHSmiths and there's just a whole rack of rough guides to every country you can think of. So it's just, well, this sounds good. Let's go there. Here's the number of the guest house or, the email. And it was also the first time I'd ever had an email address. young people today would just think, Really? A day without email address? So that was 99. It was only ever one or two guest houses in advance. And we had to eke out the most as, possible if you're paying two pound 50 a night, you're going to get two pound 50 a night's worth, you know? There was a lot of interesting nights.

Andy:

Amazing what you can live off though, isn't it? We went to, Koh Lanta. We stayed there for about two weeks, I think our budget for each day was about 2. 50. Which fed and housed both of us. I mean, admittedly, we were eating like, pineapple rice. Uh, and drinking water. And like you were describing, that level of uncertainty where you don't know where you're going. Doesn't happen anymore.

Damien:

if I go abroad now, the hotel's booked, the cab's booked or whatever. And I, I think to myself, God, I, I've changed that much in these 20 odd years. I'm middle aged man now. So you just, you got a routine and you've got this art gallery to go to, and you just think, God, it's not like the old days. It's just not. Your approach to travel changes as you get older. it just does.

Nick:

What you're saying is modern life is rubbish, Damien. The golden age is gone.

Damien:

Am I sounding like one of those old men? Oh my I don't know, in some ways it's better, but there's not the risk anymore. and I think that's what I found exciting back then, there was a risk. there were some, some scrapes. as I look back now you find yourself in some places you think you really shouldn't have been. because you didn't have that level of preparation. You didn't have that level of, avoid this place, avoid this area at night. It's a less risk averse, world now.

Andy:

Well, it's been 20 something years, Damien. You need to get back to Bangkok and tear it up. I think,

Damien:

I do.

Andy:

loose, just arrive with no plans, see what happens.

Damien:

the idea of that now is no, I just couldn't do it. I've become so domesticated and housebroken now. I think it's just, I've ruined it for myself. The better places you stay, it's,, that kind of, um, conspicuous consumption kind of idea, is, um, Oh, we stayed at this place and, the service was phenomenal. They brought champagne and you're traveling, you know, I don't care what champagne you had. What did you see? What did you experience? You know what I mean? Who did you meet? as you get older and stay in better places. It dilutes the travel experience. So I am right. I'm going to dust off my rucksack and get it back out and stay in these, places with cockroaches everywhere and give it a go.

Nick:

This was the first trip abroad. I'm assuming it transformed your outlook on life,

Damien:

It was out there. I decided to become a teacher the on the Copan Yang as a full moon party. pretty notorious. Most people who have been out there will know what the full moon party is like. yeah, I mean, that was a long two days and it was then that I decided to become a teacher, just sitting four o'clock in the morning, tied beach and a few drinks and thought I've just got to do something. I can't go back to what I was doing. or I'll never go back. So I thought, I'm going to become a teacher. So, it always has that kind of resonance for me when I think about that country and that trip. When I came back. teacher training, I couldn't afford travel, my placement and my first year of teaching, I was living on 15 a week to eat, there was just no way. So it was a few years again before I could travel.

Andy:

That's really interesting though, that you can pinpoint, to the hour, four o'clock in the morning on a beach, the other side of the world, that sliding doors moment. I've got to do something else and this is it. And that's taken you on this trajectory now.

Damien:

I still remember with such clarity. Well, I say clarity. it was a full moon party, as much clarity as you have after a full moon party. But, it had such significance because once I realized that, then I thought, okay, now I'm all right to go home. It was almost that was the point of the journey, you'd reached that destination. and it was okay to go because I've been dreading it. I just saw the money running down in the bank. And the thought of going back and, having to move in with my parents again, it was soul destroying until I thought of that and I thought, well, here's a purpose and then it softened the blow and yeah, education has been good. 24 years now in further education and 17 years higher education. It's been a riot,

Nick:

What worries me about the COVID kids that they didn't have a chance to have that moment that they're probably still waiting and they're going to have it when they're 30

Damien:

but I think that it's more class based now with the cost of living. It's not the working class kids who can do it. The idea of a gap year before university going abroad was just. for the birds, it just wouldn't never have happened. Travel is class based, You see the strata the booking systems the flights where you stay what you talk about what you experience it It's still class based so but I think the cost of living crisis now the idea of young people going abroad for five months I don't know as many young people who use it.

Nick:

Looking back Of your Twitter account. You made a point about the power of school trips of getting inner city kids out of the city and into the countryside. we don't have to talk about travel overseas That could be the, the full moon moment.

Damien:

Every year. We should take some of the students down to Brighton. And literally, we're going down to Brighton and some of the students were going to, Was that a cow? I said, yes, cow, but, but, but the, it was the first time he said, it's the first time I've ever seen a real cow and it's just, and it's one of those moments that just stick with you. And, that was early in my career. going to work in Lewisham college was a different kind of cultural experience. That's when I first moved to London and it was a very different environment to the one I grew up in. The levels of not only deprivation, where the idea of parents paying for a trip to Brighton was just unaffordable. But it was very kind of small minded, it was the idea that their world was geographically so small. that was a shocker. I found that quite motivating because of what I do. If they proceed in education, they go to university. And a lot of them did, they're moving away for the first time. So how I felt about, Going to Thailand is how a lot of those kids felt, moving to Manchester or Leeds. For university and then, they got graduate jobs and then they were able to travel and experience those kinds of things. So,, education for me was transformative, when you see that transformation in other people, particularly if you work in it, that's quite something.

Andy:

So top place you would go to now, this stage of your life,, what's number one in your wishlist of places to go in the world.

Damien:

after I started working in education, I think one of the next trips I did was, to Antigua. went there with my partner at the time and it was lovely. I mean, Antigua is gorgeous, you know, but it was very much a resort holiday. So sat on the beach and I think I went outside of the resort once and bored, the idea of going on a beach holiday where you're just sitting on the beach for two weeks, drinking cocktails. I mean, I mean, when I look outside of the rain, it sounds quite nice now, but you know, the idea of doing that, I couldn't do it. now I'd rather, much rather go on a city break, went to Lisbon, over the summer for a week and Just fantastic city. the food, it's great. The culture is great. The nightlife is good. You know, where you can be going in a nightclub one minute and then a Fado bar where there's a 90 year old woman there singing being accompanied by the guitar about the great loves she's lost in her life. Stockholm. That was a, that was another one of my favorite destinations a couple of years ago now, copenhagen spent some time there. Paris. I'm up and down with Paris. It's been a few times. Sometimes I love it. there are parts of Paris. I really love other parts. there's not the same feeling. There's not the same warmth. When I go abroad, it's just based around food. Not because I'm a glutton or anything, but when I went to Thailand, you try the first Thai food or you went to Cambodia and you see the French influences, in some of the cooking the smells as you enter a restaurant or you're in a street food market somewhere so I think food is, one of my favorite parts, of travel.

Nick:

I used to go to Lisbon you choose your fish, the butterfly cut it, and then just put it on the grill, salt it season it, and the cheeks and the eyes were the best bit, and it's the best fish I think I've ever had,

Damien:

one of the greatest things in Lisbon, and I'm going to do this every time I go abroad now, I did a food tour. Around the Alfama, the old town, four hours, 17 different dishes and drinks and it's best four hours ever because it was restaurants you wouldn't think about going in these tiny little, family run different types of cuisines and it was things I, I just never eaten. I've traveled a fair bit and I'm fairly broad in my tastes, but there were things you just wouldn't have thought about ordering. So everywhere I go now, it's got, I'm going to find a food tour cause it's just glorious. This starts moment? I want my hobby horses, English pubs abroad. I

Andy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Damien:

I went in one and it was, this was, I think I was in Chiang Rai right up the, Top of Thailand and it was a red line. I don't know why I went in it and you just get All the people you wouldn't want to have a drink with in England are sitting in those pubs, you know, imported Guinness and, John Smith's bitter, that kind of stuff. And it was full English breakfast and it's just, you just saw that kind of small mindedness. There's a certain type, and this is not me being snobby. I mean, I grew up with these people, but. You find them in these little enclaves and you're thinking, why are you here? I mean, we know why they were there. A lot of the older. white males, we know why they were there. And that was probably one of the things I liked least the sex tourists who go over there and, but they just remain there in these little enclaves, and they could have lived there 10 years and won't speak one word a time. Do you know, or Spain, I mean, I love Spain. I love parts of Spain, but again, you go there and the union Jack's flying outside and it's English beer and for English people, do you know, there's that kind of, we just take that mentality,

Nick:

I couldn't help my mind go into that when we saw the rioting this summer in the UK., these people are the people in Del Boy's bar, in Malaga how can they not see the irony in that?

Damien:

Criticize the immigrants into the UK and then go over there and, Britain and abroad, you know.

Nick:

Export Britain.

Damien:

I'll know my life's come to an end. If I ever go abroad and have a full English breakfast and I think, God, you know what I need today? A really good full English breakfast, washed down with a pint of, British lager. And then I, no, I'm done.

Nick:

Every now and then I do crave baked beans

Damien:

give you that. I'm 50, um, I was 50 this year. And so, you know, Retirement's probably, what, 15 years away, but you start thinking, do I want to retire in Britain? My travel is, between now and when I do retire, is going to as many different places and see where I could retire to or would like to retire to, if I downsize and just buy a, flat here, then I can afford to go and travel. There's an urgency as you get older which I'd never thought about until right this minute, you think, well, am I going to be still be able to go to, Australia when I'm 80, don't want to do a 24 hour flight, don't want to do that, I've got a retirement list of travel that starts with the most arduous places to travel and then gets easier as I'm going on, and it will be like Skegness when I'm 95 or something.

Nick:

What's been so good about doing this podcast is you get all those recommendations and I think one that we've both been sold on is the Faroe Islands. A retirement home for grumpy old men to just go and sit and look at the ocean

Damien:

I think if you spend years engaging with the education sector in this country, that's probably about right. you would just sit there moaning about quality systems or league tables. it's not like that in my day, the golden age of universities. But, um, I don't know.

Andy:

The next section of the podcast is called Any Laptops, Liquids or Sharp Objects? And this is where you get to tell our listeners any travel hacks or recommendations or advice.

Damien:

I know if I can't pack in 15 minutes, I'm doing something wrong. I don't want to be burdened, that's part of getting older as well, you realize you just got too much stuff, around the house and I'm thinking I'll need to skip and just clear it all away, that's my approach to travel now, you do the minimum you can get away with. the one thing I'll always take is a travel steamer for your clothes. It's just because I don't want to be mucking around with irons

Andy:

How big is a travel steamer?

Damien:

that big, probably like that. Just fill it with water,

Andy:

of a ruler.

Damien:

So that's my number one tip. Someone told me years ago, I've never been without it.

Andy:

That's a great idea.

Nick:

Why is flying getting harder for you?

Damien:

I think it's a mental thing more than anything. the thought of sitting there for 12 hours, I've got a pretty short attention span as well and I can't sleep sitting up Like I used to, I've got neck pains and it's just getting harder. And because I'm a gentleman, I'll always take the middle seat. So my partner can sit near the window and she'll be sleeping away and. I'm getting very, the guy, when I went to Lisbon, he brought a full pack lunch,, but it was like cooked and it smelled all right, but for the first bit, but after a while you just, you're just going to sit there eating that. And, it was early in the morning and,, I do intermittent fasting, so I don't eat until lunchtime. So, it was just a, it was a bit too much home in a, in an airplane, the perfect thing would be if there's just two seats, I don't have to sit next to anyone, not because I'm antisocial, but there's that kind of lottery about who's going to be sitting next to you. And sometimes you lose that lottery because You observe their eating habits and their drinking habits and hygiene, every, everything, you know, I think the older I am turning that grumpy old man, the Pharaoh is I'm ready for that now, cause I'm sitting there and I'm listening to myself, what's wrong with you. They're nicer places. I think airports now, years ago, you used to have the smoking areas in the airports. God, those are rancid places. one, You walk in and it's just, you're engulfed by this, the worst stench of nicotine but you have to, because you think, God, I'm going to be on this 12 hours. We're going to do a 12 hours without a cigarette, and you're already Jones in from the thought of not having a cigarette. there's still the bars where people are in there drinking at five, six o'clock in the morning. The thought of that, I couldn't just never understand it, how you can want to drink at that time in the morning before you're getting on a flight. Makes no sense to me, but you, each to their own.

Andy:

Although I did see somebody drinking red wine at six o'clock in the morning. I thought that's a bit, it's a bit

Damien:

And much more civilized,

Nick:

Wash down your full English. There you

Damien:

I was in the Maldives, uh, contracted food poisoning, worst experience of my life. It's only there for 10 days and I spent nine of them in the local clinic. Uh, I was on IV. I lost so much weight. It was incredible. It was like I'd lost nearly a stone in 10 days. so I, I never got to see any of it. I landed, I went to the beach, went to dinner. That was it.

Andy:

Do you know what it was? Can you pinpoint the

Damien:

I, I suspected it was the soup, but it could have been anything there was a lesson there without a doubt. And do you know, I think it was a salad as well, Don't eat the salad. It's washed in the water. Just don't do it. Or ice cubes, But yeah, we get older and wiser. And I put the weight back on as well, which is the worst thing.

Andy:

yeah, it's a long way to go to spend nine days in, in a clinic, isn't it?

Damien:

I was still hallucinating when I was coming back. while I was there I could hear the call to prayer. and I was on the plane and I was still hearing it. I, I was, the, the hallucinations was, I never anything like it. So she we're not just talking about the usual symptoms. I was hallucinating, it was fever all the way through. It could have been transcendental, but I don't remember it that way.

Nick:

Bloody hell, what was in that soup?

Damien:

I don't know, but it's serious bacteria.

Andy:

Podcast is called what's the purpose of your visit? So why do you do what you do, Damien?

Damien:

For work,

Andy:

For work. Um,

Damien:

went to grammar school, got to grammar school, which we, you're just preparing for University now. So I'm going to do University, you know, it's so completely alien. So that's stuck with me always. And so I've only ever worked in whiting participation. University has got no interest in working in high tariff institutions because I was these students. I understand, I the impact of poverty on education. I understand how it also creates aspirations and a meaning in education that I don't think you ever appreciate. if you're coming from more African backgrounds. So that's, that's the same reasons. I miss teaching. I do, that immediacy when you're teaching. When you're in the, when you're on a roll and it's a really good session, the students are really engaged and they're learning and you can see the movement forward and they're collaborating. There's nothing like it, it's the greatest feeling ever. So I missed that. And as much as I love my job because you can create change on a bigger scale. the more senior you become, and certainly my level, The decisions you make in the work you do impact thousands of students rather than 30 students that are in front of you, but it's by proxy a lot. and I get upset at myself, I think, and the job because you start looking at the metrics and you think about metrics and you think about lead tables, you think that you're seeing transformation through a statistic and you got to keep bringing yourself back with these. This is not statistic. These are people's lives. if they succeed because of the work that we do, they're not just transforming their own lives, it's generational change, for their families and them. And so you've got to keep, so I, I spend an hour a week still just walking around the campus speaking to students and saying, tell me about your experience. How's your day to day? What could we do better? so you still get that immediacy of experience because it's too easy to get removed. there's a lot of gatekeepers between students and me. If something's not going right, not everyone is going to be motivated to make sure I know about it,

Andy:

that visibility is really interesting, David, because the reason why you came onto our radar is because you post, on LinkedIn and on Twitter, you post opinions. And in a sector where most people are pretty scared to do that, what do you think gives you the freedom to do that, that other people don't have?

Damien:

I think why isn't everyone doing it and this is the thing that education, particularly higher education, as you'll know, is everyone's got an opinion on everything, these are some of the most opinionated people I've ever worked with in our academics, but yeah, it comes to that and it's watered down, you don't want to, you don't want to, in case he gets a bit of backlash, In case you get someone out criticizing you, but, it's just never bothered me to be honest and when I first got on Twitter years ago, I used to have run ins with, um, Tory MPs or right wing journalists, it was, it was much more, it was much livelier, but so I have toned it down a bit, believe it or not, but if you've got opinions, I mean, what else are we doing as academics? You know, what else are we doing? If you have a position, shouldn't we use that to try and say something marginally interesting? I mean, it's not going to change the world. let's not get carried away with the impact of social media, but it does raise questions, and it does build connections with people I may not have connected with. Social media for all its ills. I've met some incredible people, we have to get out of the. The cozy groups in the echo chambers. I want to hear people who think differently.

Andy:

A lot of people that listen to this will be interested in. You're in a leadership position in a university. And I think part of the reason why they possibly don't feel they can have the same voice that you have is that you feel like you have to fall in line a lot more,

Damien:

look, becoming authentic is easier at my position. The more senior you are, it's easier to be authentic because as you're going up, I think that the mask can behave particularly in higher education. I've started this network for, working class origin leaders in higher education. And some of the stories I've heard, an accent is a big thing. You know, so the masking that you enter university, even as an undergrad and the way accents change rapidly and people, become homogenized around accent. And the other thing is, I'm a straight white man. It's easier for me to be authentic as well. If you're not, if you're a global majority woman or disabled or LGBTQ plus, it's much harder to be authentic because there is a great level of scrutiny. Right. There's a greater level of discrimination and, I've never shied away from saying that about our sector. Many wonderful things about HE, but the idea that we're a meritocracy, in its purest form is just not true. And I will never, I'm never bought into that. I mean everything I say, you're going to get some trolls coming out and you know about something that they just disagree. But again, so what it's, it's someone saying they don't agree with me or, what was the one the other week? I was a woke, champagne socialist and it's like, do you know what I mean? Some people would be, I just think it's funny. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Nick:

I've become obsessed with this idea of truth to power, higher education as a as an entire entity is becoming more and more out of touch. And that worries me because that's You know, that's a real problem when you've got to convince people that the whole thing is worth investment

Damien:

I think you look at some universities, the executives, uh, removed from their staff, they're removed from the community. you'll see some VCs engaging far more, um, sector level where they can just go and rub shoulders with other VCs than actually being engaged with their own colleagues, I think this is why like the term civic engagement on it doesn't sit right. It's never sat right with me. It's like there's a kind of paternalism. So will it go and engage with the community, probably get out there and become properly enmeshed with it and the problems that our communities are facing and think about how can we co create social change. That for me is a more interesting agenda

Nick:

And the leadership element, this is taking people with you

Damien:

That taking people with you,, that gets bandied around a lot. And so, traditionally in universities, that is evidenced by, well, how many times did you send an update to staff, so they know what's going on? No, that's not taking people with you, it's, get some proper engagement. Ideas should be emergent. anyone at any level in a university, if they've got a good idea, I should be able to listen to it. But you can't take a, a junior member of staff and expect them. Oh, well, they're going to send a, their idea No, I've got to go out and make myself available to hear it. Hierarchies are, basically there to protect executives who don't want to hear, do, you know? So you have to, you have to get away from the idea of a hierarchy.

Andy:

The final section of the podcast is called anything to declare. It's a free space for you to talk about whatever you'd like.

Damien:

One thing is the value of international students. As soon as we're talking about travel and we haven't done a good job as a sector talking about that and, the recent, um, idea that was floating around newspapers that, universities would have, would arbitrarily and voluntarily agree to reduce international student numbers in return for raising student fees. That's not selling the advantages of international students to this country. As I was reading some of the narratives and some of the voices around that, it made no sense to me. And I'm not just talking about economic returns, you know, it's nearly, what, 50 billion international students contribute. why are universities not making sure that kind of contribution is front and centre of the debate? it makes no sense. the contribution of international students, the communities to learning, to teach and learning the, the different cultural views yet with, you know, I mean, we're on a travel podcast, we're talking about the benefits of travel and engaging in different cultures and learn that the essential learning that comes with it and yet where is, why are we not talking about that? Why is that not front? So we're getting dragged into the discussion about just pure numbers as if those mean anything, because they do politically, but educationally they don't financially, they don't economically, they don't mean anything. So, I really would like to see, um, international shoes championed in the right way.

Andy:

Amen.

Nick:

Yeah. I just find it amazing that the people still think that we can row back on globalization in that way.

Damien:

No, I completely agree. And we've got to take advantage of it. it's like AI, you know, we can't pretend it's not going to increase. We can't pretend it's not here. I've met some academics at a conference recently and it was, they were so resistant to AI and exploring it. And it was just, oh, the students are cheating. Well, they're going to use it. I mean, if it's there, students are going to use it. Academics are going to use it. So, just teach them how to use it properly. Let's look at the benefits of it but there's, there's a nostalgia in universities and higher education that for, you know, for a golden age, I've been in 17 years, there was no golden age. If there was, it was before that, everything was always better back in the old days. If you go, you go back to the, the history of universities, you've got students coming in with swords if they didn't get what they wanted. there, there is no golden age. Universities were marketized back then. people talk about the marketization and neoliberalism. You go back, professors were attracted money from wealthy donors. Do you know what I mean? So they had to be out self promoting. This is nothing new. We talk about this kind of mythical golden age that just didn't exist in

Andy:

Well, I think, what was it, 1970s, there were about 4 percent of the population were at university. Now there's closer to 40. The buildings are all amazing. Everybody has access to amazing technology. We're probably in the golden age.

Damien:

Got there in the end.

Andy:

Damien, thanks so much for coming on. It's been great to have you.

Damien:

Great stuff. No, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me on

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Andy Plant

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Nick Cuthbert

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