Crowd Safety on big events - a Hot Topic Special episode with Íse Murphy-Morris from Safety Sistas

Crowd safety must be a priority for every ticketing executive in sports and major events. It's a multifaceted issue that impacts customer experience, capacity management, brand reputation, legal compliance, risk management, emergency preparedness, and revenue protection. Indeed, the significance of each element is undeniable for those in the realm of ticketing.

Ticketing isn't just an operational function; it's a strategic tool for enhancing crowd management and safety. In the latest Hot Topic Special episode of TicketingPodcast.com, Íse Murphy-Morris shares her expertise on this very subject.

With a Master of Science degree in Crowd Safety and Risk Analysis from Manchester Metropolitan University, Íse’s credentials as a crowd security freelancer and Associate Lecturer in Crowd Safety at the University of Plymouth position her as an authority on event human behavior and crowd management strategies.

This episode delves into the art and science of balancing risk management with creating unforgettable experiences, considering the ever-evolving dynamics of post-pandemic crowds. Discover how factors like seating layouts, bag policies, and water provisions can tip the scales from potential chaos to comfort for event-goers.

More than a mere lesson in crowd control, this episode of TicketingPodcast.com offers a masterclass in designing events that harmonise safety with enjoyment—ensuring every attendee leaves with lasting, positive memories.

TicketingPodcast.com is powered and sponsored by TicketCo and hosted by TicketCo’s CEO, Carl-Erik Michalsen Moberg.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

When you gather huge crowds for big events. Crowd safety can never be taken seriously enough, but what is there to consider and how can ticketing help making safe events? That is the topic of this episode of TicketingPodcastcom, starring IC Murphy from Safety Sistis. Hello everyone, welcome to this hot topic special episode of TicketingPodcastcom where we will be discussing a topic that should be top of mind of every ticketing manager all the time, and I'm talking about crowd safety. My name is Kalle Rikmoberg and I'm the host of this podcast where ticketing experts share their stories and insights. With me today is a woman who has a master's of science degree in exactly what I'm talking about crowd safety and risk analysis from the Manchester Metropolitan University. Welcome to the ticketingpodcastcom Issa Murphy-Morris.

Speaker 2: 1:03

Thank you very much, kalle Rik, for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:05

So I have a longer introduction. But I mean, you're an entrepreneur yourself and you have your own company, so I'm pretty sure you can pitch Murphy-Morris better than I can. Can you tell us a little bit what you do?

Speaker 2: 1:18

Yeah, so basically supporting events and venues with crowd safety and improving crowd safety practices, and I also specialise in ZoneX, which is the arrival and departure, so basically everything that happens outside of the stadium. So a little bit different to what most other kind of people do, but it's definitely something that's become really important. It's always been really important but become quite topical in the last couple of years.

Speaker 1: 1:44

So, yeah, Very, very cool. And you're also a lecturer, aren't you? In crowd safety at the University of Plymouth?

Speaker 2: 1:52

Yes, that's correct. Yeah, so I lecture on the events management degree. They've got a crowd management module, so I lecture there every year and I also guest lecture for a couple of other universities as well, across the country and in Ireland as well, which is great, great to share the practice of crowd safety.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Definitely, and you certainly know what you're on about as well, which we'll come back to later, but before that, what's the best event you have experienced, viewed from a crowd safety and crowd management perspective?

Speaker 2: 2:22

So, in terms of the arrival and departure experience, the ingress and egress experience, the best one has to be the Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games, which was the whole operation that we'd put in place for the athletics, which was a very complex system because the venue was outside of the city centre and the city centre was a very, very congested small space with three train stations, a bus station, two festival sites, two competition venues and other shuttle bus operations, and we were able to support the navigation of 14,000 people into this very busy city centre and navigate them to a shuttle bus operation that took them to the venue and back again at the end of the event.

Speaker 2: 3:13

From a transport perspective, I have never seen so many compliments from the audience. It's a saying in the transport world that we want people to remember the sport, not the transport, at a major event, and they remember the transport for all the good reasons, and I can say that in my entire career I've never seen that really to that level. So it was seamless, it was smooth and people had a really great time, especially coming out of the pandemic, where we were really struggling as an industry to kind of get back on track with changing crowd behaviours and also the lack and the struggle in terms of human resource and competency and quality of those who carry out crowd management.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Sounds great. Why was it such a success? Was it the planning, or was it the people working on it, or the systems you had in place?

Speaker 2: 4:06

A lot of resource went into the planning. So I do mentoring as well and I was mentoring two young people who are going into event safety and we were talking about the difference between festivals and major sport events and how festivals they can often be recurring. So actually when people who work on festivals they usually don't see the team that are there all year planning the festival, but they have a huge site team then coming on to build and deliver the festival. So I always feel like I spend more time delivering and less time planning, whereas in a major sport event you spend more time planning and less time delivering and it is because it's usually a one off. So there's a lot more hands on deck, a lot more resource going in, a lot more people to deliver something because of the high risk level of the fact that it's a one off.

Speaker 2: 4:54

Sometimes there's all the reputational the government support because we've got host city contracts and agreements and sometimes putting all that attention and resource can be too much. I do have a little clip that I can actually share with you that just shows that whole process of people coming in through the city centre getting on the bus. I don't think I've ever seen so much barrier in my life on the venue end and some could say it was over engineered, but it worked and it was really something quite impressive to see and I really think that because they brought a lot of real experience people together at the right time of planning the event, they were able to iron out all these risks that we normally hit when we're on the event that we were able to mitigate before the event because they use people with operational experience in the planning.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Got it Now. It sounds like you have a couple of key takeaways there that we should write down, for sure, but you know how it is when we ask about the good stuff, we also go on the other side, right? So, without naming any names, do you have any examples of the opposite? I mean, have you ever been witness to an event where you've been thinking that it's a disaster?

Speaker 2: 6:03

Oh, yes, many years ago, and it was a festival structure in a park, but it was a one day event, so you know that they'd have kind of concerts every evening. The event was great, as in the music performance was great but even seeing the event arriving onto the site, the way you came onto the site just didn't feel like it was really taking into consideration how people move through the space. There were no queuing systems for the toilets, there were no queuing systems for food and beverage, so people were waiting a long time and they were kind of crowding around let's say, the toilets, not being able to use the toilets because no one knows who's next in line, and then that was blocking pedestrian flow to get in and out of some of the viewing areas. So then on egress, then when we were leaving, it was dark but there was no lighting. There was very little lighting for us to be able to see where we were going, and then we were being kind of funneled out of the arena into kind of forestry space and people were going to be really frustrated that we weren't moving.

Speaker 2: 7:02

We were kind of like one big blob of a crowd. We couldn't see that there was any structure or any flow to how we were being guided out, and some people got really frustrated and, you know, someone picked up a loose hair panel and threw it into the crowd. It was really quite frightening. And then at one point, we were shuffling along, so we were moving very slowly, which was hence the frustration, and then I hit something with my shin, with the middle of my lower leg, and I looked down and there was a railing, a low railing, going right across the egress point of where the crowd are being pushed and directed to by the crowd management security staff, and it was a railing of a playground and we were basically being egressed directly into a playground and I just couldn't believe this was happening in 2013. So, yeah, I think that was definitely one of the kind of worst experiences that was quite a high risk and really not thought through in terms of how they were managing egress.

Speaker 1: 7:57

But hopefully everything went well in the end. Right, but there was a huge risk at the event. That's what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Yes, it was lots of near misses and just bad practice.

Speaker 1: 8:08

So, with that as an introduction to the good sides and the bad sides, some people say that if you're into ticketing you're crazy right, because it's a lot of stuff going on all the time, so many people, things to deal with, etc. But I think next level is crowd safety. How did you get into this and what made you interested in the subject? And also a little bit about yourself. I mean, what's your story?

Speaker 2: 8:31

So I've always been in events. I've been in events my entire career. I studied events management at university. I think I'm one of the few ones who went down the academic route as well.

Speaker 2: 8:42

I loved event production, creating events, but I always found that I was naturally inclined to looking at the safety elements of every kind of event or festival or production that I worked on. I always wanted to make sure that it was safe and that it was a really good experience for people coming in and out of the space, whether it was in an old castle or out in a field or in a brewery, which I arranged a party in a brewery, which was really fun. So I always married safety and the experience together, whereas I could see that there was always this thought that the people who worked in safety were trying to control everyone or try and be policing and actually stop people from doing what they need to do, when actually I wanted to facilitate the fun, but in a safe container, you know. So let everyone do what they need to do, but, you know, make sure the place is safe for them to do it. So it wasn't until I started working on the major sport events and, as I ended up doing transport, which I loved, because now I'm moving thousands of people in and out of stations, in and out of stadiums, in and out of everywhere, and you know there's high risk because you're in built up areas, in cities, in towns, across roads, buses, trains, cars, you name it. So it was high risk, high density and very time kind of constrained. And so I was doing all of these calculations, queuing systems, working with the ticketing team about what time people are arriving. Do we want them to arrive earlier? Can we feed them in slowly? Do we want to feed them in in kind of phases? Do we want to fill up which side of the stadium revenue Do we want to fill up first? So all of those kind of calculations to keep everyone safe but also give them a really good experience. You know you don't want people to be waiting outside for ages and feeling like they're having a terrible time.

Speaker 2: 10:27

And so it was after the Robi Roll Cup in 2015,. I thought, wow, if anything happened to people in the areas that I was managing, and something bad happened and I was pulled up in front of the coroner's court and they said why did you make this decision? And I said, based on my experience. I don't know how kind of reliable that was. So I knew I wanted to then increase my knowledge and that's when I started doing the training. I met Keith Still, I did his course and then got brought onto the Masters and I did my training, my safety officer training. So the level four inspector safety management, which is what you need to be a safety officer in a sports ground in the UK, did my knee bosh, you know, kind of did all the kind of health and safety focused and crowd safety inspector, safety focused training that I could, just to really increase and support my experience, you know, which obviously taught me a lot and then really shifted my focus into the crowd safety element.

Speaker 1: 11:25

So that's a super interesting topic, for sure, and you also have your own podcast about it, don't you?

Speaker 2: 11:33

I do, yeah, safety sisters. So what I've learned in my career is that I've worked with some amazing women who are incredible at what they do, and I believe we learn by story. We need to see patterns and what I've learned is that in order to improve safety and to catch something when it's happening because we're dealing with emergencies essentially when we bring people together at an event, we're dealing with an emergency because it's human beings Anything can happen. We have to always be ready to respond and we don't have a lot of time to respond and actually, through storytelling before we're at an event, as we're kind of learning and growing in our career, this storytelling actually teaches you the ability to respond to whatever kind of scenario from learning from that story, if that makes sense. So then when you're in the control room, something's gone wrong and then, all of a sudden, that pattern of what's gone wrong matches the story that someone told you a year ago and what they did to make it better. Bam, you can apply that or you can consider it and it's all subconscious. So storytelling is really important. Sharing stories is really important.

Speaker 2: 12:43

I was trying to get women to write into articles or share their stories and it was really struggling. So I thought do you know what? I'll interview you, and it's not just women, it's everyone. But I really want to kind of focus on supporting women, because that's the kind of nature of what I saw in terms of the hesitancy of sharing their stories. So, yeah, I've got a couple of episodes out and some really amazing people that have come on, and I've got someone coming on next week that I'm really excited to interview and it's been really fun and really great listening and I have learned so much from their stories as well.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Amazing. So a shout out then to your podcast. I see, tune in and check it out and follow IZ's podcast. This is a ticketing podcast, right, and it's about ticketing professionals and also about sharing stories. They have a lot of stories, some long stories and not so many short stories, but that's the way it is. Why should a ticketing manager or someone working in ticketing care about crowd safety?

Speaker 2: 13:43

Because we can help them, make their life easier. Your focus is getting those people into those seats and making sure that everyone in each of those seats can see the stage or see the picture, see what they need to see, without any obstruction. And we want to get people into those seats as quick as possible and as seamless as possible. And then the same as they leave, because the experience of that one ticket that they have saved up for or they've been looking forward to for a year or two years or however long they've bought that ticket, that experience of the moment that they sit down is completely filtered by everything that happened before and everything that's going to happen after, and being able to get everyone in on time and get everyone in safely relies on what happens before and what happens after, and what happens before and what happens after is us, so you know we're the sandwich that keeps everything in the middle together.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Sounds great. I think that's a good analogy for sure. So I mean, if you are an event organizer, you're doing a big football matches, a big game is coming up. When does your responsibility start and when does it end, you believe?

Speaker 2: 14:57

It starts from the moment you say we're having an event and it ends when we've managed to get everyone Away on their train or in their car and their bus safely. I think one of the most important things with ticketing is that it's not just the information of getting you to your seat or to where you're standing. It's the protocols, the policies, the procedures. Are you allowed a bag in? Are you allowed water in? All these kind of decisions that will actually go on to the ticket or be part Of the ticketing process will have a massive implication on the safety of people. Are they allowed to bring water in or empty bottles?

Speaker 2: 15:33

Okay, well, is it going to be 40 degree heat? I mean, you know we saw what happened, unfortunately, at a Taylor Swift concert a couple months ago relating to that, how we got unreserved standing. Okay, how popular is the artist? Are people going to want to queue outside of the venue for three months in advance, which we've also seen happen? So you know, all these different kind of decision-making if it's all seated, all standing, and the Access policies and the timing of the event is all going to have a huge impact. I mean, we all know right that the categorization of risk level for matches. We all know that a high-risk football match in the UK, the number one thing you do is start that match early on in the day, you don't put it on in the evening. You know and it's so. It's all these like these standard kind of operating procedures of what the ticketing process will impact on the whole kind of sphere of the event itself.

Speaker 1: 16:29

Mm-hmm, I mean these matches, like you're saying, if it's high-risk matches, I mean it's often played on huge stadiums, and sometimes the stadiums are located in the middle of a very, very quiet Neighborhood, right, but then the neighborhoods not so quiet anymore. What challenges do you see then?

Speaker 2: 16:48

So, depending on if it's a Regular local match or if the stadium has been taken over by a tournament or a major sports event, you know, one of the kind of challenges that I've come across when doing these major sports events is stadiums and local authorities will go oh, we do this every week, it'll be fine. And I think the one thing that worries me the most- yeah you know.

Speaker 2: 17:13

So where we have a stadium where 40% drive, 20% take the train and we know how people are going to get there, if anything kind of changes, the sort of Demographic or the type of event changes, that blows out the water and we have to model and we have to work out how people are Intending on coming to the event and then, if they are intending on coming away that we can't actually service, we need to start changing their behavior, which is where a travel demand management TDM comes in and In terms of the environment that the stadiums are in, one of the things that I've been talking about, a really great example Is in the United States there's loads of room because they all drive. In Europe, there's not a lot of room because they're built up. You know the stadiums are really old and built up. Cities and people take public transport. In the United States, taylor Swift has been having her concerts and what's been happening. Thousands of people have been gathering outside to have picnics and sing along to the event because they haven't got tickets.

Speaker 1: 18:11

Hmm.

Speaker 2: 18:12

Oh no, they want to do the same in Europe. Oh god, we don't have the same amount of room. Okay, now what do we need to do? Yeah, so you know, I know I'm kind of keep going back to music rather than sport events, but I think that Taylor Swift thing is a really good example of you know, the environment is so important and also the culture of how people get to and from a Stadium. Once again, the United States it's really common to drive, whereas over here it's really common to take public transport. And how you work with what the assumptions are of the audience and Influencing their behavior about how they come to the event. Hmm, how that will impact the local area because of residents and other businesses and etc. Etc.

Speaker 1: 18:53

So yeah, and it's. I mean, it's super interesting and using Taylor Swift as an example is great these days, and you'll come back to that a little bit later. I mean, I see you have been involved in probably hundreds of events and one of them was the London New Year's fireworks were more than a hundred thousand attendees from all over London Probably all over the world were gathered on the same spot. I mean, it all happens at midnight, it starts a little bit before, but can you tell us a little bit how you work there and also how you actively use ticketing to manage the logistics and I mean the operation in total?

Speaker 2: 19:31

Yeah. So I was working with the events team at the Mayor of London, so supporting the main lead, and my role one of the years was to support with how we can change the behaviour and change the process of that whole arrival and ingress piece to get everyone in for the 12 minute show. Because of different situations, there were different challenges of getting everyone in on time the previous year. So, in terms of the ticketing element, we brought in a buy policy because people were flying in from all over. It was actually really common for people to take all their giant luggage into the fireworks show and if you think about trying to get in like 100,000 people in only a few hours, because we can only close the roads a couple of hours before you know you've got this tiny window frame to get people in certain entrances. You know only a couple of entrances on the north and south of the river and we have to search all those bags. So we brought in a buy policy. That information was on their ticket. We started communicating with them when they bought their ticket. Then about a month or two months or something before the event, then a couple weeks before it, then you know. So we're communicating with them more.

Speaker 2: 20:42

It implemented this new buy policy. We were honest with them on the ticketing information, saying for the first time ever, if you don't get here by 10pm, we can't guarantee that you're going to get into the event, and that was a really, really big change to actually say this to them. You know, and one thing that I really hit hard on is giving people information and letting them make the decision, and actually there's now some research disaster research that supports that, which is really great. Professor John Drury and Dr Eva Hunt have done some disaster research. They've looked at how people behave in disasters and the number one action people take is they're searching for information. They're not running away in panic, they're searching for information. So we gave them information If you don't arrive before 10,.

Speaker 2: 21:28

I can't guarantee that you're going to get in. And another big shift was then, once again on the ticket. It was always assigned to an entry because they were color coded like blue area, red area, pink area. But now what we did is we told them to go to a specific station, london Underground Station. So if you're in the pink area, you go to this station If you're in the blue area. So now, instead of just going, find your way to this entrance, actually find your way into London to this station, come out and then we'll guide you to the entrance.

Speaker 1: 21:58

Everything that you're doing around that event is interesting because you inform people in advance, you avoid the disappointment or not getting in, and if they don't get in, you can show to the message that you've sent out and also you're thinking about how you can get people home afterwards, which is important.

Speaker 2: 22:13

Yeah, so you know you could say it's not rocket science, it's very simple. But they made profound differences and we were able to get like the ticketing data. The curve from the year before to that year was completely different. People really did listen and they the curve kind of peaked at that 10pm, 11pm, and we really got the majority of people in on time for the 12 minute show.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Amazing. How do you feel after an event like that?

Speaker 2: 22:38

Oh, it's wonderful when you kind of step back from putting months and months and months of work into something and then you're there seeing it happen, or you're there seeing you know whatever part of it. I mean that's kind of why we do what we do, right, we're like people are having a great time.

Speaker 1: 22:55

You make the world a better place. That's why you do it. I suppose I mean speaking of massive events, we also touched on Taylor Swift, but to continue a little bit on that, she's coming to Europe this summer and I'll list up the places she's going to play. I mean she'll be in Pariscom, Lisbon, madrid, lyon, edinburgh, liverpool, cardiff, london, dublin, amsterdam, zurich, milan, gelsenkirchen, hamburg, munich, warsaw, vienna and then finally, London again. Six shows in London altogether three shows at Aviva Stadium in Dublin and three shows at Anfield in Liverpool. We talked about sports events, but this is a massive concert and you need all the tricks in the books on this one, I believe. What's your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 23:45

I feel that everyone in those cities, in those stadiums, have already started planning, are already planning for this. New kind of things need to be considered not new, but sort of a novel for a one-off kind of music event. You know, do we need to put in a fan zone for a music? You know we're used to doing it for a sport event, but do we need to now do it for this music event? You know, do we need to create a space for people who don't have tickets? You know, how are we looking at the arrival pattern? Because now you're going to have merchandise which is going to come in before the event and actually that's its own operation, because thousands of people will show up for the merchandise days before the event.

Speaker 2: 24:23

So, you're trying to build for your event and actually there's already another event happening before your event, which is the merchandise event, and a lot more kind of focus and attraction and this is the whole thing. That kind of goes back to when we do a major sport event and how stadiums and local authorities say, oh, we do this all the time, it's fine, it's like no, it's not fine, it's completely different. There's so much more pressure in terms of broadcast, other media, like there's a lot more demand on behind the scenes stuff that actually can impact your crowd. You know, I don't know, because of security protocols, counterterrorism protocols, just VIP movements. Are you closing different roads? Are you impeding on different access that the crowd used to be able to move and now you're going to have to swap that around? Are other people going to show up just because they don't have a ticket but they just want to see what's going on? So are we adding an extra demand on transport modes of getting people there?

Speaker 2: 25:18

In the UK we've had a lot of, I think, actually probably every country. There's been a lot of industrial action. Oh, this is a prime target for threatening industrial action around these type of events. Not that I'm trying to give anyone any ideas. But you know, are we planning for the potential of industrial action, of rail strikes happening.

Speaker 2: 25:41

And do we have a contingency plan? That actually makes me feel a little bit safe, because it's really concerning that these things will happen, because, in my opinion, when there's an event like this high chance that there are a lot of young people, you want to make sure that they're as safe as possible. So something like threatening industrial action. While it's a very media, you know, like target the media, you know it's very dramatic Actually. Are you now, because you're threatening industrial action, are you risking the safety of these children Because now we're trying to figure out different ways of getting them there? So it's a whole ecosphere of decisions and how they impact your operation, decisions that other stakeholders can do, that are outside of your control, that you then have to respond to. So, yeah, it's a big deal.

Speaker 1: 26:27

Yeah, are you going yourself?

Speaker 2: 26:29

Yes, I have a ticket. I won't tell you how much I take it.

Speaker 1: 26:34

You're a Swifty as well, like the rest of the world. Yeah, I mean, when you attend a big concert like that, do you relax or just to try and find out what you would have done, or try and learn, or think about the crowd more than the music?

Speaker 2: 26:50

Well, when you attend an event, do you relax or do you start looking at how they do things?

Speaker 1: 26:56

I look at everything all the time and I've been running restaurants myself and I look at the menu and what they serve and how they serve and I forget about the event. That's my biggest problem. I guess you're the same.

Speaker 2: 27:06

Yeah, exactly the same, I think. Once you see it, you can never unsee it, right?

Speaker 1: 27:11

I know Ruin, unfortunately, and you look at everyone else, they remember the songs and we remember everything else. That's the case.

Speaker 2: 27:19

You're on, really like that water distribution system they had.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Thank you so much for sharing your stories and insights with us. I see, and we also have a tradition on this podcast, and that is to ask our guests about their match day rituals. When there's a big match, what do they do? Right, the question is obvious. When you have a big event, I mean, do you have any rituals? What do you do when you get up in the morning? I mean, how do you stay focused?

Speaker 2: 27:43

Well, I love that I always get a good night's sleep. Before it's like no, you don't, because you're doing like last minute changes and last things. But I try to get as much sleep as I can so that I'm, you know, ready and fresh. First thing up, definitely get a coffee, and then I always then get my second coffee on the way, because I love coming in and approaching the venue or approaching the site with a coffee and being able to kind of because it's that fresh morning, it's always the morning right, we're always in really early, there's that smell in the air, that kind of freshness of the morning, but also the excitement of the event and just kind of taking a moment standing outside before you go in and kind of get involved, just to kind of go. Yeah, we're going to hopefully make a lot of people really happy today, so yeah, Sounds like a great start.

Speaker 1: 28:33

I mean, we also had to have a second tradition. We allowed ourselves a couple of traditions there on this podcast, and that is to sum up the two to three key takeaways that you want our listeners to remember based on this conversation. What would those be?

Speaker 2: 28:48

Certainly that we are here to support you. We are here to facilitate the event going well and to come to us early actually, because the earlier you can come to us, the sooner that we're able to actually come up with some really creative solutions to facilitate whatever cool thing you want to do, Always think who my decision can affect. We really are connected to so many more stakeholders and we realize a decision that you will make as a ticketing manager can have a really big impact on the train station operator on the day of the event. So think about the kind of furthest person away yeah, think about who your decision will impact and come to us. We are here to support, we're here to facilitate and we're here to help you guys have a really good time. So, yeah, those are the two kind of important things that I'd like to share.

Speaker 1: 29:41

So I see lots to learn here. And you also mentioned you do some mentorship, don't you? So I was wondering if people want to reach out to you, what do they do? I mean, what's the best way?

Speaker 2: 29:52

Yeah, sure, so you can visit my website, which is MurphyMorrisco, and you can email me at isayatmerfymorrisco. So ISE and I'm also on LinkedIn, so you can find me there too.

Speaker 1: 30:07

Sounds great, thank you. Thank you again, ise, and thank you so much for coming on today.

Speaker 2: 30:12

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It was lovely to chat with you.

Speaker 1: 30:16

Likewise, you've been listening to theticketingpodcastcom, where today's topic has been crowd safety and crowd management. Today's guest has been ISE Murphy Morris. Check out Murphy Morris and also check out ISE's podcast. More episodes to come, very exciting, and also thank you again for listening to theticketingpodcastcom. Thank you to our sponsor, take it Co and have a wonderful day.