In our latest episode, we step into the world of music festivals, where the thrill of the front row meets the meticulous planning of crowd control.
What can the sports event industry learn from the festival industry on this matter? Quite a lot, which is also one of the reasons why Morten Therkildsen, Director of Safety at the Roskilde Festival, is involved in both UEFA Champions League finals, Formula 1, Tour de France, and UEFA’s safe standing project, aside the massive Danish festival that gathers 135,000 attendees each summer.
Roskilde was also the scene of the tragic Pearl Jam incident in 2000, when 9 people were killed as fans rushed the stage. Morten witnessed this tragedy first hand, as a volunteer back then, and this incident has ever since followed both him and his festival as a key learning point on crowd safety.
In the heart of the festival buzz, Morten unravels the strategic changes to inner pit access—highlighting innovations like the wristband system that enhances security while honouring the fervour of die-hard fans. We delve into the psyche of crowds, examining how strategic entry protocols can merge the rush of excitement with the calm of order.
Morten's rich insights, informed by his master's thesis and years of fieldwork, navigate the delicate balance of providing a safe space for the shared joy of festivals and sports events alike.
Tune in for an enlightening deep dive into the intricate art and science of crowd management with a seasoned expert.
TicketingPodcast.com is powered and sponsored by TicketCo and hosted by TicketCo’s CEO, Carl-Erik Michalsen Moberg.
In our latest episode, we step into the world of music festivals, where the thrill of the front row meets the meticulous planning of crowd control.
What can the sports event industry learn from the festival industry on this matter? Quite a lot, which is also one of the reasons why Morten Therkildsen, Director of Safety at the Roskilde Festival, is involved in both UEFA Champions League finals, Formula 1, Tour de France, and UEFA’s safe standing project, aside the massive Danish festival that gathers 135,000 attendees each summer.
Roskilde was also the scene of the tragic Pearl Jam incident in 2000, when 9 people were killed as fans rushed the stage. Morten witnessed this tragedy first hand, as a volunteer back then, and this incident has ever since followed both him and his festival as a key learning point on crowd safety.
In the heart of the festival buzz, Morten unravels the strategic changes to inner pit access—highlighting innovations like the wristband system that enhances security while honouring the fervour of die-hard fans. We delve into the psyche of crowds, examining how strategic entry protocols can merge the rush of excitement with the calm of order.
Morten's rich insights, informed by his master's thesis and years of fieldwork, navigate the delicate balance of providing a safe space for the shared joy of festivals and sports events alike.
Tune in for an enlightening deep dive into the intricate art and science of crowd management with a seasoned expert.
TicketingPodcast.com is powered and sponsored by TicketCo and hosted by TicketCo’s CEO, Carl-Erik Michalsen Moberg.
Are you ready for an episode packed with valuable insights on crowd safety and how ticketing can play a vital part for your crowd management? No need to search any further this essential conversation awaits you right here at ticketingpodcastcom. Hello everyone, welcome to this hot topic, special, special episode of TicketingPodcastcom, where we'll be discussing a topic that has already been addressed once on this show, but it's also important that we revisit it, and I think it's a topic that's super engaging. Once again, I'm talking about crowd safety. My name is Carl-Erik Moberg and I'm the host of this podcast where ticketing experts share their stories and insights.
Speaker 1:With me today is a man who was the first person in Denmark yeah, you heard it right, the first person with an academic degree in crowd safety. In 2006, he built the very first crowd safety management company in Denmark. This company he then sold to the Roskilde Festival in 2013, where it changed name to RX Experience in 2018. He's been part of the Roskilde Festival huge festival and I'm sure you've heard of it since 1993 in various roles, all concerning crowd safety, and today he is the festival's director of safety, and in that role, he's been involved in massive events and projects like Eurovision, world Pride, eurogames, uefa Champion League Finals, formula One, tour de France and UEFA Safe Standing Project. During the last decade, I actually think I summed up all the biggest events in the world there. Welcome to TicketingPodcastcom, morten Terkelsen. Great to meet you, thank you, great to be with you. So we'll soon get to know you better, morten. But before we start, of all the different events you've been part of which one stands out as the most crazy, most memorable or fondest memory.
Speaker 2:Well, it's always difficult to point out one thing because it varies from event to event, but of course, I have to say Roskilde Festival. Roskilde Festival is a very, very unique thing. It's a non-profit charity organization, so it's not really so much about the festival, that's just the way that we bring money in to support young people, and we are up to 429 million kroners that we have donated up till now. So that's a massive amount of money and it's a really, really cool festival. It's 135,000 people. It runs for eight days. Roughly 70,000 of them are staying on campsite.
Speaker 2:We are the fourth largest city in Denmark, with an average age of 26 years old. They live in a density which is similar to Shanghai and they're all drunk or hungover. So that's a different event. But I also have to say so. Of course, that's a special place in my heart. But I also have to say, weirdly enough, we are in a period now where we're getting closer to Eurovision, and you mentioned it yourself.
Speaker 2:Eurovision was crazy. That was impressive. It's one of the largest TV shows in the world and even though it's only 10,000 people it was 10,000 in the venue when I ran it it's just so important for everybody that it works out on TV. It's 195 million viewers. When I had it and I worked, as you mentioned, for the Champions League finals in Istanbul last year, that's only 124 million, so it's quite a lot. It's the second largest TV show in the world, only succeeded by a Chinese program, but I don't think that really counts right. So, yeah, that was also very interesting, and I'm not seeing Eurovision every year, but every year when it starts coming up, all the memories comes up as well.
Speaker 1:I think one thing you're mentioning is the event is huge, but I mean the scalability in it. It's just incredible. Speaking of scalability, I mean Roskilde must be one of the best cities, not only in Denmark but in the world, when you're doing the festival.
Speaker 2:I think it depends on how you look at the best cities, but it's really, really an incredible, well-run city that's built in a very short time and exists for only a week. It's very impressive and the atmosphere is like nothing else and I'm not only saying this because I'm a part of Roskilde. It is really a special place to be. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's go straight into safety, right? This is what it's all about. This is what we're talking about here and for people outside of Denmark and for industry professionals in particular, I wish, unfortunately, Roskilde will. Some of the things you associated with is the Pearl Jam tragedy that happened in 2000, when nine people were killed and fans rushed to stage. Can you tell us a little bit about your memories from this accident and how it affected you, the festivals, and how it's affected the festivals?
Speaker 2:after. I was actually present amongst the crowd during the accident. I worked as a volunteer for that period, but I was only there. So, yes, it has a special place just basically for me, because I was there. I saw it with a kneeling down on stage, crying and asking everybody to go walk away. So that has a special place, but of course, that also means a lot for my whole career. This is one of the reasons why I'm working with safety Not in the way that that meant for me. I need to change everything, but since I'm doing what I'm doing and working as a director of safety for Roskilde, this is our legacy. So it changed everything. It changed the idea of networking.
Speaker 2:I'm a member of Global Crowd Management Association, but that's actually something that's quite new. Europe Events Safety Group was formed right after the accident, so it's been for 20 plus years sharing knowledge. The academic degree that you mentioned came out of the accident, something we need to understand more. With academic degrees comes research, with research comes new knowledge, and so on and so on, and for me, my role is to make sure that nobody forgets that we unfortunately tragically lost nine young people that evening. That's basically my role. It can never happen again, and that's basically my role. It can never happen again, and then that's my role to keep on making sure that we keep on developing, but also keep on remembering what's our legacy, basically yeah, I think I mean with that it definitely sets the standard and also how important this topic is as we continue this episode.
Speaker 1:But you mentioned the academic route. When did you decide that crowd safety was the professional path that you wanted to follow, and how's your journey been up until where you are today? I mean you have an impressive story. I'm sure our listeners would like to hear more.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, like a lot of other people, it's just a weird direction of going into it. In Denmark there's a tradition of working as a volunteer and, as I mentioned, Roskilde is a non-profit organization. So I was at Roskilde for many years and then somebody asked me hey, you want to come to other shows and work? So I started working as volunteers for other shows and then a client asked me you want to start your own company? If you start your own company, we can hire you. And then I said, oh yeah, okay, I can do that. Why not send an invoice? And that company today is called Live Nation Denmark, so just one small company, right. And that was fortunate for me, of course.
Speaker 2:Then I realized, if I'm suddenly sending invoices, maybe I should know a little bit more about what I'm doing. And that's why I took the academic degree. I realized that, oh, there's something new in UK. So I jumped on that one and came out as one of the first with an academic degree and the first to go through the whole bachelor in Denmark and actually the first with the whole crowd safety management bachelor in the world. So that was kind of the direction. But actually my background is I'm an educated air traffic controller and I've worked in the airline industry for many years and then moved into shipping. The crewing industry was responsible in Maersk a supply service for all their staff and all their vessels around the world, so it's just different ways of approaching it. But now I love working with droughts, that's my passion and that's what I think is funny.
Speaker 1:Sounds great. I mean airport. I used to throw luggage years ago Not quite the same but I've been in the airport quite a lot myself and I see what you mean right.
Speaker 2:From a people perspective, it's kind of still the same world, somehow, right, because airports and that world was all about sending people out for a very nice experience, and somehow it's the same. Now it's different, of course, but it's still the same. My role is to make sure that people can have a very good experience when they're going to events. That's what it's about.
Speaker 1:That's a very important job, for sure, and you have a very broad experience, and I mean we can discuss a lot of things, and we will as well, but let's start with roskelda. You're responsible for organizing the safety and security at the eight day long festival, as you said. We also said right, with 135 000 people at a campsite, with 70 000, those are big. Do you sleep at night?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's a good part about being busy. Then you are very tired when you go to bed. Then you sleep better. But, yes, it is very impressive numbers and, of course, I have an amazing team around me. I have really, really passionate people that are very skilled and that I trust in and therefore it's, of course, easier for me. But every year, people are always asking me oh, what are you looking forward to at the festival? And then they're expecting me to say something like Foo Fighters or Tyler or whatever, and every time I say I'm looking forward to the festival being over, and then people think that it's like okay, that was a boring answer, but actually that's how it is. I love when we're in the middle of it, but of course, there's a lot of pressure on me and therefore, when we close the gates and everybody's sent home, it's a massive relief and of course, that's how it is. But, that said, I still love it and I'm passionate about working with it and I love being with the and and, most of all, love being with my team there.
Speaker 1:It's impressive so I mean, with this being a ticketing podcast, we should address some of the ticketing related aspects of your festival, right, and one of these things is your inner pits. What can you tell us about them?
Speaker 2:we have in front of our two main stages orange stage and arena stage. We have a system that's built upon the idea that 5% of your audience creates 95% of your energy, so therefore we need to be able to manage those people. And it is a very high energetic area at some of the concerts. So it's important for us that we can limit the amount of people and we can maintain it. And for many years we had a massive queue system for people who wanted to come in so they might come in in the morning Remember, our main stage is really really high profile acts so they would sit there in a queue from the morning and then just basically queue for the whole day. And I remember queue going through half of the inner side, passing three different stages for a queue to get into the inner pit.
Speaker 2:And we redesigned the inner pit a couple of years ago and limited it a little more, so it's basically smaller than it used to be, but more managed and controlled, and that made us realize that we were raising the idea of being in a queue, because it would then become even more important. So we found a ticket solution for it. We don't want to charge people for being in there. It's supposed to be then 5% best fans. They are the ones we want in there. It's a safety thing.
Speaker 2:What we do is we work with wristbands, which is also kind of a ticketing solution, right? So they come up in the morning, they pick up a wristband and it's for free, and then they can see the whole show, and then they can come back no later than 15 minutes before the actual act starts and then they're guaranteed access into the inner pit. So this means that we are basically using the wristbands, basically to keep them away from everything, right? Yeah, so we use it there. We also, of course, have regular tickets. We don't do that much of counting people in and out. We do have wristbands with RFIDs in it. We can't do it, but it's mainly for the inner pits that it's very important because the site is massive, so we can manage it.
Speaker 1:But that's actually quite important for us with that style of respanding everybody that gets into the inner pit just a question around that follow-up question when you come up with an idea like that, how does it feel to see it working?
Speaker 2:well, first, you're very concerned if it's a really bad idea. And sometimes I get some weird ideas and my team gets some weird ideas, and sometimes people are looking at us and say, oh, that's never going to work and we have a massive trust in our audience. This is what we are fundamental about, because we are a charity organization. We are there for the audience, so we also trust in our audience and every time we get the stupid ideas, we say, but does it work for the audience and do they want this? And if we are challenged a little bit, well, but we trust them. So it feels really, really well when it's working, because there's always a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2:Some years ago we had the issue that for our campsite, the audience opened the doors. I mean, they opened the fences and then they ran in 16 hours before we were ready on the campsite and then they started complaining that we weren't ready for them. I said where are the toilets? Why didn't the bars open? Well, hang on, because you're 16 hours early. And I was asked this was while I was doing my bachelor degree and I was studying a lot of crowd psychology and all of this and I was asked by the festival if I could take a look at it. It was before my present role. I said, yeah, but if I do it, I will challenge everybody because my solution will go into trust. So we changed the fencing to police tapes, we've changed the security to a host that we're talking to the audience, and I clearly remember the guys who were supposed to clean up after the whole line system. They were like, yeah, but we don't want to do a plan because it's not going to work. They're going to go in 10 hours or 15 hours before. We're just wasting our time creating a plan for you. We will show up when we are ready.
Speaker 2:And we opened the doors one minute after it was supposed to open that day. To open that day and everything was based on we will let you know when you can get in. That worked massively well. So sometimes we get some stupid ideas, but they tend to work when you work through them. And this is what crowd management is about. It's about trusting the audience, working with the audience, understanding what they want, and that's a lot of my job is to try to understand what the audience wants and then give it to them. So, yes, it works very well. When you see, I we made I can imagine.
Speaker 1:So the wristband idea I think that's a stroke of genius, right the way you handle that, because you've had a problem, you've seen it and you solve it and you put it into action and it works. Did you pick this up from somewhere, or was it your invention? Or, in other cases, where do you go for inspiration?
Speaker 2:well, this is where I'm very fortunate that I work on a lot of different shows, so quite often I'm not able to tell you where I get the ideas from, because I get them from other people. I guarantee you that I'm stealing from somebody else, because that's what it's about, right? And with the wristbanding, we were talking about early entry system, which is quite normal for different acts. We just worked with the 1975 and they wrote us up front we will bring in 100 wristbands for the first early that will arrive early in the morning, um, so you can manage them and and so this is a similar solution, tweaked a little bit for us, but it's it's a regular solution.
Speaker 2:So we being a part of a couple of hundred shows every year, not only the festival means that I get ideas from everywhere. I travel to see a lot of festivals. I am very nice network of international and national colleagues that are willing to share ideas with us, and this is how you get the ideas, this is how you develop. My staff often hates it because every time I've been out somewhere I come home with new ideas and then they think we need to replan everything.
Speaker 1:So I guess the word that's a bad idea. It's just motivating, isn't?
Speaker 2:it yeah, yeah yes, so, unless it's me saying that's a bad idea. But that's motivating everybody else and challenging me, so that's fine.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned inner pits and you said a percentage of the audience is in the inner pits, but how big are they and how many people do you squeeze in?
Speaker 2:So the inner barricade in front of Orange State is a thousand square meters. That's nice because it's easy to count and work with and there are different guidelines in how you do it. There's an EU norm saying that you should fill your front stage area with 3.5 persons per square meter in average. There's a green guide saying you can go up to 4.7. And there's a Danish guide saying 2.0. So it's somewhere in between there, but realistically what you will end up with seven. And there's a danish guy saying 2.0, so it's somewhere in between there, but realistically what you will end up with x, where you have eight or nine or ten persons per square meter.
Speaker 2:So for us, the way we calculate it is that we hand out wristbands so that we are guaranteed that everybody can come in, and that brings us to 3500. So that's a 3.5. So we hand out 3500 wristbands, which will bring us, if everybody shows up, it's 3.5. Then we go from 3.5 to 4.7 in average. But that's the manager on site who decides. So you can come in on. We call it the chance queue, so if you don't have wristband, you can show up anyway, and that's why we have for the last 15 minutes. Then we fill it with people.
Speaker 2:Maybe somebody went to another concert and had a wristband, but we can also see oh, these audience, they are fine with standing a little closer, then we can raise it, but we never go higher than 4.7 in the Intermarricade. So that's how we calculate and we actually calculate everybody moving in and out of the Interpit, so we know exactly how many is in there. So it's kind of a combination of the wrist banding combination of counting people going in and out, combined with CCTV and spotters on stages and the staff on the floor and the final, the manager's decision, and a proper risk assessment, because we actually we risk assess every single concert. We have around 180 acts at Rust Killer Festival and we risk assess every single one of them. So the profile for each concert changes and with the profile we also need to change the accepted density for each concert. So that's kind of how we work with it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting and it also shows again the scale of the festival. When I hear inner pits right, you may think of the golden circle as an equivalent, but it's not quite, is it.
Speaker 2:Well, it is not quite the same. The golden circle is exactly what it's named it is. If you have the gold, you can get within the circle. So it means I'm selling tickets for this area. And if you are selling tickets, it's not about the 5%, it's not about the major fans, because then it's about who got the tickets or it's about who had the price to pay for it. But if you are doing it in this safety way, then you would rather work with first come, first serve, because then you know it's the ones that are already in the queue that are getting in.
Speaker 2:That's my favorite. But I understand a lot of promoters like to sell the tickets for the inner pit, but then you can't work with it. As a 5% will give you a 95%, then what often happens is that you will then push some of the hardcore fans further away, and sometimes you actually see photos of VIP areas created in front where it's really not fans standing there and they are ruining the concert because they're not giving the energy uh up to the artist, and every artist feeds on the energy of their fans and the fans are further out.
Speaker 1:so that's not how we do it it creates a better experience for the whole concert. I mean, if you have 95 energy in the front, the energy is transferred to the artist or the band.
Speaker 2:We, of course, do the same. I mean, like every other festival, we have VIP guests, business to business or something like that, but we keep it on a very, very low amount of people that gets in. We also sometimes run some competitions so we can win the wristbands because it means something. But in all the aspects where we start giving away wristbands for something else, I am the one, as a director of safety, who approves it, because our barricade and our inner pit is a safety area, and so it's not the promoters, it's not my ceo, it's not the, the sales people who are making the decision. How many can? They will come and ask me and I say, okay, we can live with 100 guests or something like that, and then we work with that, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So basically, you're the final decision maker in terms of that. In terms of that, yes, yeah. So let's change the subject a little bit and discuss safe standing through rx experience. You're consulting a brand that most people know, uefa, within the concept of safe standing. Does safe standing exist? I?
Speaker 2:would say no, but safer standing exists. You can never gather people and say it's safe. That will never happen. It's like saying a car is safe but you still see crashes in a car. But there are different solutions that can make it safer, and this is actually what the project is about. The project for UEFA is about sending people like me out and monitoring how they work at different stadiums, how the solutions are, the technical and the soft solutions and the designs, and if you can actually work with it.
Speaker 2:There are more and more places in the world where the law has changed, where it's allowed to be standing. You see stadiums in Germany where it's fully standard, where they have no seats at all, unless for the VIPs. And, of course, if they get into Champions League finals or just in Champions League, they will be challenged because suddenly they can't play at their own stadium. So they're putting a lot of pressure on UEFA and saying we would like to play at our own stadium, and this is why UEFA is trying to figure out can they create new rules to make it as safe as possible? That's kind of what the project is about.
Speaker 1:So if you talk to the stadiums you mentioned a little bit okay when they have international matches, that's going to be important. But you mentioned a little bit okay, when they have international matches, that's going to be important. But can you elaborate a little bit on why stadiums want safe standing?
Speaker 2:Well, you can start with saying that a lot of football matches, the people are standing already, so let's just go in. If you're a crowd manager, you want to give what the audience wants to have, right? So if you're telling the audience you must sit down and they are not seated because they want to stand, then there is something wrong. Of course, based on the hillsborough and heisel stadium, those tragedies, these are some of the decision has been made. If you have a ticket, it's easier to manage. You know where you're supposed to be, yeah, so that's. That's kind of the simple aspect. If you know where you're supposed to be, stay in your seat. But if people are standing up anyway, then it's not safe, because having no rails in front of you at all, but only having a seat, that means that it's not really that safe because you are lacking the rail. But, as some stadium has, where you have a seat and a rail in front of you and the seat will fold up if you stand up, well, in my mind that becomes safer, yeah. But then there are other challenges. Because what if you basically take away all of the seats and you just have standing? Then people can migrate to wherever they want. Then is that safer? Yeah, and the less rules you have, the more you need to basically let the audience know that they cannot do what they want to do, right?
Speaker 2:So, football audience. I love football fans. Unfortunately, there are a few of them that are really, really stupid, right? And they should never be allowed to go to football because, well, they don't know how to behave. And the less rules you have up front, the less automatic oh, this is how I have to work the more you set it free for them. So it's not only about the standing, it's also about the whole culture. What happens if you let go of some of the strict rules? Right?
Speaker 1:Definitely and I think maybe it goes back to your inner circle logics it's 5% of the football fans creating 95% of the problems. Yeah, and it's not even 5%.
Speaker 2:It's a very, very few. Most football fans are amazing, but there are some that are well different, that's why I? Love doing concerts instead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not a big fan of football myself.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I really don't like football. I think it's stupid game. I like playing it but I don't like watching it. It's a waste of my time but I don't like watching it. It's a waste of my time. And I don't like working in stadiums. It's fine and I like giving the experience to the audience, but actually I think this is where there's a big difference in security and crowd management.
Speaker 2:The definition of security is that there must be an intention of harm. That's kind of the idea of the word where crowd management is. In my idea, it's very much about crowd density management. It's about how you give them the good experience, about not pressuring them together and therefore placing them in a risk of being crushed. So that's kind of my limited version of explaining it. And the problem is with football, because they have this very few percentages. That ruins it for everybody else. And it's all about security. It's all about, oh, they want to fight. And it's all about heavily armed police outside of the stadium and all of this where, if you go to a festival, there is very little security because you basically don't need it. Our festival, rusk festival the audience loves each other. It's really, really peace, love and harmony. And when I'm at the most, I think I have maybe 40 security officers at the whole festival. The rest of them are crowd safety host completely different vibe.
Speaker 2:I guess everyone is supporting the same team on your festival and that's not the same thing in a football match and I'm not saying that we don't have stupid guests as well, but these are very, very few and they are not the ones that are basically there for the festival, or they got a little too drunk or something. That's why we need security. All events need security. The question is how much security you need, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, correct. I mean, you mentioned the Hillsborough tragedy. What have we learned since then? What have we learned?
Speaker 2:since then? That's a very good question. One of the really, really big outcomes, I think, from the Hillsborough is that police are doing something else than crowd management. They are working with crowd control. They are a security entity and they are working with security intention of harm and they are able to control a crowd, but they are not able to manage a crowd. Manage a crowd is completely different. That's a I trust in them and it's psychologically based.
Speaker 2:So what we see in many countries now is that it's not really police running it. Unfortunately, still there are some countries where it's still the security mindset that runs it. We see it it in Paris and a lot of different places right. So that's one of the things. But we also learned that we need to look at how people get in, the whole idea of the zone X, the external zone, how do they arrive, the whole idea of how you communicate, how your command and control system is there. You can keep on picking on Hillsborough because there's so many things to learn. It's like the Roskill 512 accident. We will never finish learning from it and that's quite impressive actually, and if you're a little bit nerdy like I am, then it's perfect that you can learn from these things.
Speaker 1:I agree, and it's a crisis right, and if you don't learn from them, it's a complete right, and if you don't learn from them, it's a complete waste. Exactly, if you learn, you can use it to improve and save lives in the future.
Speaker 2:If you're in a position like mine, it would be respectless not to pay respect to the people who died. I've been to Hillsborough, actually, and I've been to different places where there have been accidents, places where there have been accidents and every year we have this area at our festival where we have nine trees and a stone and it says how fragile we are and take care and and every year I go there it's not like I'm crying or anything like that, but I go to pay my respect and quite often, if I do a tour for politicians or something like that, I like to start there, kind of saying, yeah, this is actually our history. And you see, every year there's a lot of audience that comes up and brings a beer and just sit down there, relax, think and drink a beer, and I think that's so important that you keep on doing that.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. One thing regarding crowd safety I just read an article in the Athletic about how FIFA needs to take gun violence into account for their 2026 World Cup in the United States, Mexico and Canada, due to the recent fatal shooting in Kansas City during the Super Bowl victory celebration. I mean gun violence, is that something you've ever considered in your crowd safety plans for big events?
Speaker 2:I would say that every country you come to have different rules and different challenges, and the countries you just mentioned, they have a challenge. It's. Everybody knows it. We look at it. It didn't really have anything to do with Super Bowl. It wasn't about the match, it was something about the celebration afterwards and it had nothing to do with the celebration. It was a crawl that happened right.
Speaker 2:But, yes, you have to look into it. You have to risk assess every single event and sometimes you're running events where you need a higher level of security. You need metal archers, you need police on site, stuff like that, and and just the risk of terrorism is changing as it is. So, yes, you need to bring it in. We have it in all of our risk assessments. We are fortunate that denmark is a very, very nice country to stay in. You know the same from norway. It's different than america, yeah, but that we are also in the middle of several wars, actually, and we are at the forefront. Every time somebody needs to have an opinion, our little country starts yelling. So, yes, there is risk.
Speaker 2:The good part in Denmark is that it has been agreed that it is the police who's responsible for this, and I like that idea. If you go to UK, you can actually buy the police to be at your venue. You can't buy the police in Denmark. I think it should keep like that. The police is the ones who are supposed to manage this, because it's a societal challenge. But it's not the same as we don't look at it. And of course, fifa have to look at it, everybody has to look at it. When something happens After the Manchester Arena Ayanna Grande bombing everybody has to look at it.
Speaker 2:After Stade de France, with the bombing, after Penteclan, of course we look at it. After the Nice attack, we all look at how we can protect us from vehicles. Yes, you have to look at this all the time, but you have to balance it out. And if you're looking at it, I'm not concerned about gunfights or anything like that. It can happen, yes, but I'm not really concerned. I mean, my concern is more on the crowd management style, because if we start looking at it, there are several more accidents. That's related to how people move and then fight, and I think America as a country is one of the countries that are lacking behind still on crowd management, but they are very high on security and I think America as a country is one of the countries that are lacking behind still on crowd management, but they are very high on security and I think for them it would be healthy to start looking on crowd densities and crowd management and movement.
Speaker 2:And some of the accidents we actually see somewhere around the world when you have a shooting or something like that is actually the outcome is not about the shooting. The outcome is about not knowing how to manage your crowd when something happens. So everybody runs in one direction, where they can't run, where they shouldn't run, but you are not prepared to guiding them to other places or you didn't design your site to actually manage it and therefore you have to defend. So, yes, every aspect of violence, of challenges, have to be risk-assessed and it makes sense for FIFA to look at that.
Speaker 2:Of course, it makes sense for Paris as an Olympics this year is going to be very interesting, right, because they have a lot of challenges as well with rioting and fights and it's a very high security country and they have the Bataclan and the Stade de France and Charles Tepteau and all of these challenges they have. So that's going to be a very high level, and this is where ticketing as one thing comes in because you might be able to manage. Some of it related to ticket. I've done shows where you need to show your ID to get your ticket, and that's always a beginning. So there are different layers of how you manage it right.
Speaker 1:You had an episode with Anderlecht, and I mean the regulation they have to follow as well. Right, where you have to show the ID when you're going into the stadium. But how does that affect the crowds? Right, that's also important. So I think there is a trade-off as well, and how much security you can implement versus crowd management and flow and whatnot. That's also an interesting consideration, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and where does your responsibility start and where does it end? If you raised your ticketing regime, if you start doing ID checks, if you do all of these things, if it takes longer for the audience to get in and therefore you have a larger crew, does that mean that you will then have a larger risk of a cross in your queue systems, pressure on the queue systems? Or you're actually having queues outside your venue where they are completely unprotected, where often inside the venue they are highly protected? So it's a trade-off with everything right. You have to risk assess and say it's always a balance. Sometimes it's crowd management.
Speaker 2:I've studied a master's in public safety management as well in crowded places, and during that master's my end thesis was about the difference in crowd management and security. And before that I'm like I'm a crowd manager, security doesn't matter. But now I've realized that it really matters. It's all the elements. But sometimes you turn up the amount of crowd management you need and you turn down the security, like Roskilde Festival. But then if you do other events I've done events where it's massively visited by all the politicians in the country Well then you turn up the security and maybe you turn down the crowd management because there isn't really a queue system or anything like that, and you have to do that for every single event and your ticketing regime is a part of it.
Speaker 2:How fast can you get people in? And I often see people that come up to me and say, hey, you should have these smart gates and you can have 3 000 going through the gate in one minute. And I'm like, no, you can't. We know that. It's saying 0.0001 second to do the ticketing. Yes, if you're sitting in a computer environment back home and trying it, but not in real life environment. So often when I work with these I say show me a video that lasts two or three minutes and then I can calculate how many people walks through, and these are always people who has been briefed, if they don't take it from real life. I've seen them where it's then a kind of an office environment and all the staff walks through as many times as they can. But that gives you an idea of how fast. And imagine that your salesperson tells you you can get this amount of people through every gate and you can't. Then you're creating really something that's different and difficult and dangerous on your crowd management, but also also on your security, right.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and I think that's where the experience comes in right. Yes, into an event. Have you seen it yourself? How does it work right? Always a good control question in these cases. So 2024, I mean, time flies. We're talking about the 2024 festival now. I mean, besides what you mentioned now and all those massive artists you'll be having, why do you think I should put roskilde 2024 on my list?
Speaker 2:well, because it's the best festival in the world. So that's that simple. But also remember how many places can you actually go and just drink beer and have fun and say really that what you are doing is doing something good for the world? Because what you are doing at Roskill is that every time you put some money in the bar, you're giving it directly to some young people who need help to find a position in the world. And I think if you don't like the festival for whatever, then that by itself is such a unique thing that you won't find basically anywhere else in the world. But also, I think, the whole festival, because that's the idea and it's very much for the young people and a lot of young people.
Speaker 2:We have great restaurants, so I'm saying the average age is quite low, but it's really impressive to be there as people like you and I, because it's very nice, it's good concerts and there are 180 acts. We don't know which one is the cool one because it depends on what you like, but I guarantee you there's music you like at the festival. We're not a headliner festival. We don't want to present headliners, but of course we also have them because that makes people talk about the show, but actually it's more about presenting different cultures of music and styles of music. So spending time at roscoli festival means walking around the site grabbing some nice beer which, by the way, is organic as well, so that's also a thing and enjoy meeting people and good concerts and stuff. But you can say that about every festival.
Speaker 1:So I come back to rascal is unique because it is a massively non-profit festival it's great, and I think the conversation we have now also means you're in a safe place, right, or a safer place, or as safe as possible yes, place for sure. And one thing you can't disagree on, and that is, is that you guys in Denmark knows how to make good beer, and that's also a good thing, and we have one that's made only for Roskilde Festival.
Speaker 2:Just remember that. And that is very nice. Sounds good.
Speaker 1:I think you convinced me today. You mentioned you're not a headliner festival, but you have these amazing artists. Any of them you look forward to seeing this summer?
Speaker 2:I never really see any shows right. What I look forward to is talking to the audience, spending time with the team making all of the small bits and pieces that we've worked for for a year to work out. I enjoy meeting up with the tour security that I know that's coming through. But yes, I, I enjoy it. And I'm saying I'm never listening to any acts, but of course I'm going to just drop by Foo Fighters and hear one or two songs in that environment. And I'm always careful because there is an artist that I'm looking very much forward to. She's not a headliner but I really like her. But I don't think that she's announced yet and therefore for me I'm very careful in which acts I'm talking about, because with 180 acts, I tend to try not to look into any acts that hasn't been published because it's. I can't remember who has and who hasn't. But I am looking forward to a few of the acts and I know I'm just gonna pop by but it's gonna be one song and then then I'm back in that work environment mode, thinking, and then I'm gonna go and I love because every year there's a lot of my colleagues that comes in and I tend to spend quite a good time with them.
Speaker 2:My role at the festival is a strategic role. I have a lot of meetings, I manage the press. Whenever it's about safety, then it's my role to talk to them. I tend to spend quite a lot of times with politicians and companies and stuff like that, but all all the team is running the festival and if things are running well, then I have all the time in the world. I live right next to the festival and it's quite fun because sometimes I can stop and then I can say why am I even here? Why am I not back home in my bed? You're just hanging out and you have to get up early tomorrow morning. That's what I try to do, but we all get into the energy, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, when you mention it like this, morten, you're saying like, yeah, popping by for a couple of foo fighters songs and then have a, maybe I'll talk to a couple of good friends, and doesn't sound like a bad day at work.
Speaker 2:No, no it doesn't sound like work. I mean it's. It's taken me years to explain my kids that it is actually work, but it's easier now because my son is actually working for me and my daughter just finished her bachelor degree in risk and catastrophe management, so they are now understanding that okay. Yeah, that is. It is actually hard work, but it's challenging to explain people who doesn't understand our environment that it is work and that it is high-pressure work actually, because you'll always walk around looking calm and enjoying it and it's my role. The second I start running around yelling at people, everybody will get scared Because if I do that, something must be really, really wrong.
Speaker 1:I can't really. I mean by meeting you now, morten.
Speaker 2:You don't seem like a person who would do that for sure I can say I do it, but it's more when I tend to drop into smaller shows and be more operational. Then I'm like why are you not doing it like this? And at Rustkiller, I've realized a crew around me that are used to me interfering and having opinions and what they say is oh, he's just passionate, and, and that's correct. I love what I do and I love the team and and I have really really good staff around me. But that doesn't change the fact that I always see everything and want to tweak on the small details. Right, our problem is we never know when we had a success. Right, you can measure it. Okay, we made good money yeah, but was that a success for me?
Speaker 2:And some people say, well, as long as people will get home and nobody got killed, well, is that really a success? You could also argue as long as there's no bad articles in the news space, yeah, but hang on, you know, when you have a festival like ours with 3 000, 4 000, whatever press on site, you will have good articles. You will have really bad articles because they have to find something to write about, so it's very difficult to measure. Was it a success? I have to measure it on the fact that it runs and it runs well, and I have very, very good team that are passionate and they're really doing hard work to do it. That's how I mission my success.
Speaker 1:That's great, and I think it goes into ticketing managers as well. Right, how do you measure success? I mean, you can say sold out, but very often they don't hear anything when it's sold out or when everything is going according to plan. But I'll tell you one thing when the other thing is happening, it's a different beast for sure. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and insights with us, morten. We also have a tradition on this podcast, and that is to ask our guests about their match day rituals, and I mean in this case we should talk about festival rituals. So the question then is so it's Roskilde festival day one. You get up in the morning. What's the first thing you do?
Speaker 2:The first thing I actually do is really boring. I start looking at my phone to check the emails and I get an announcement of what has been mentioned in the press about the festival. But the actual nice thing I start to do is my first meeting in the morning is a morning breakfast meeting with my team leaders, and that's quite nice because we realized many years ago that I forget to eat until very late. So there are staff around me that decided there would always be breakfast for your meetings in the morning, so they know that I've eaten. I'm not sure that if it's because I'm getting angry, if I don't need, or if it's just they had that passion, but that's quite nice, actually meeting with them and then starting doing that. So it basically comes back to seeing my happy staff in the morning. That's what it starts with and I like those meetings actually before the festival.
Speaker 2:I I try normally Friday we open Saturday. Normally Friday I try to gather my employed staff. I work a lot with volunteers I have almost 2,000 volunteers and then I have roughly 12 who are employed at the office and we try with the staff to sit down the evening before and have a glass of red wine Not a bottle but a glass red wine not a bottle, but a glass and maybe eat a pizza and say okay, we are ready, it's nice, we're going to go into something. That's very interesting because I don't touch alcohol from. We open the doors and they're on and therefore it's quite nice. Just kind of just sit down and say now we're there and when we're done with the festival we're way too tired, so we just spread out and then we go into summer vacation mode and we don't see each other for a month. And then we're coming back and oh, oh. By the way, we did really well at the festival three months ago.
Speaker 1:I think that's a healthy way to go, for sure. Yeah, another tradition we have, morten, is to. I mean, you brought us to some really, really interesting topics here today, and I think the experience you have is super impressive. But if you would sum it up in two, maybe three key takeaways for our listeners, what would those be?
Speaker 2:I would say that there is a massive difference in security and crowd management, and ticketing is a really, really important part about crowd management. More than security, it's about understanding how you let people in, how you manage your staff. All of that, I would say you can't do it without a good team. You are depending on a good team and, most of all, you can't do it without a good audience. If you don't trust your audience, you shouldn't be in this industry. Audience is, and I love the audience we have, and it's not something I just say. I say it a little further out than than it normally is as in really really love them and sometimes, yes, I don't like them that much, but in general, you have to love them and I really really love the audience and there's nothing better than just walking aside, it doesn't matter which side it is, just walking inside and talking to audience because they love being there and that's what it's all about I mean.
Speaker 1:The love and the trust you give to the audience is what makes what huskilde is. It's been great having you here as a guest. Morten, you have a lot of experience. I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who would like to get in touch at some point. How can they reach?
Speaker 2:you. Well, they are always welcome to send me an email that's easy or drop in on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. That's an excellent way to do it, but otherwise we have an email which is the company in the mail is safety at rfexperiencedk? That's the way to go. The Roskilde Festival version is harder because it's Sigahøl, which is a weird Danish word. But LinkedIn I mean. Linkedin is nowadays the way of getting very easily in touch with people, and I love when people are getting in touch. Actually, I have a meeting tomorrow with a guy from Norway that reached out and said hey, I'm challenged with a little bit of things. Do you have half an hour for me? I love it. Every time somebody is asking me, I learn something back.
Speaker 1:Very, very good. No, I think there's not many Norwegians in the whole world if you look at the context, but some are, and there's also some good events over, so you're more than welcome to coming over, morten it. Welcome to Coming Over, morten. It's been great to have you here as a guest. Thank you so much. Thank you. You've been listening to ticketingpodcastcom, where today's topic has been crowd safety, and today's guest has been Morten Terkelsen, director of Safety at the Roskilde Festival, and he's also doing a lot of other things, like building a family business in crowd safety, which we also heard about. So thank you for listening and thank you to our sponsor, ticketco, for powering the ticketingpodcastcom. My name is Carl-Erik Moberg and until next time, have a wonderful day, thank you.