Embracing Life After Tragedy: Sarah's Journey after Losing Her Brother to Suicide | The Day After Ep 19

What happens when the unthinkable strikes, and suddenly, your world is shattered? Meet Sarah, a brave soul who grappled with this reality when she lost her brother to suicide. Amid the heartache, Sarah shares her raw and intimate journey of navigating grief, the repercussions of medical negligence, and the profound impact of the loss on her family dynamics. Her courage to open up about this life-altering experience is a testament to resilience and the healing power of sharing personal stories.

Sarah's narrative evolves from the tragedy of loss to a tale of hope and resilience as she reveals how her future husband was instrumental in her healing process. The dynamics of grief, its long-lasting effects, and the importance of a robust support system form the backbone of our candid conversation. Sarah also delves deep into her fears as a parent, underlining the influence of her brother's loss on her decision to have children and the unique challenges she faces while raising them.

In a captivating twist, Sarah recounts how she found solace and guidance through dreams and interactions with a psychic, offering a unique perspective on connecting with lost loved ones. Her story comes full circle as she shares the joy her parents found in grandparenthood, presenting a touching end to her narrative. Sarah's journey is a stark reminder of the significance of self-care, community support, and their role in overcoming adversity. As you listen to her story, we hope it offers comfort and inspires strength to those grappling with similar struggles.

Transcript

CJ Infantino: 0:00

Hey, I wanted to give a trigger warning that in this episode we do discuss suicide and suicide attempts. If this is something that is difficult for you, please pass on this episode and we'll see you next time.

Sarah: 0:13

There is just something profound that happens with the shift. When we lose the loved one, our whole world pauses, while it seems like others continues, time warps and how we navigate in a reality is completely changed. I mean, I always look at it and explain it. You know, the clock keeps ticking for everybody else but us.

CJ Infantino: 0:44

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Day After. On today's episode we sit down with Sarah, who shares openly about losing her brother to suicide and the horrific and potentially preventable circumstances surrounding his death. We're grateful to Sarah for sharing her story and sharing her brother with us. And before we get into the episode, I wanted to remind you that we do have a way to support the show financially and all the work that Ashley and I do behind the scenes, as well as supporting our guests. You can go ahead to thedayaftercom slash plus if you'd like to give a monthly contribution to help support the show. Every dollar helps. We greatly appreciate you and everything that you do to help us keep going and to keep bringing these stories and make them known. Thank you so much and enjoy the episode.

Sarah: 1:33

I'm Sarah and you know I'm a local marketing content creator here in Buffalo and my story of loss, or the biggest loss that you know I've experienced to date, was when I was a senior in high school, 17,. My older brother, who was 21 at the time, took his life on a Friday night. It was a Friday. Everything was really business as usual. Nothing at the time seemed out of place. I was the last person to see him alive, which definitely hits. It was just every Friday. He always hit off on a Friday and he would walk down to his friend's house who lived down the street. So nothing was really out of the ordinary. Every Friday we got, we ordered in, my parents would leave money and I always worked on the weekends.

Sarah: 2:38

I worked retail as a 17-year-old kiddo Every Friday, saturday and Sunday. You know which, obviously, when you're a kid in school or young adult, I should say you know that bodes well with your school schedule, but your social life kind of takes a hit. But anyway, my mom would always drive me to work. So we you know my brother would order the food and you know we'd get it delivered usually and then eat and then my mom would be home and take me to work, so on and so forth. Nothing was out of place. You know, everything was as it was and I remember I would always eat my we got subs that day and I would always go up to my parents' room to watch TV and kind of dread the work night and he came into their room and was, you know, asking me what I was watching. And you know, typical sibling stuff of you know. What does it look like? I'm watching, I'm watching.

Sarah: 3:38

It was like four o'clock, so it was Oprah you know, oprah, you know after school, and then he, you know he, walked out, he and you know I remember, I actually remember falling asleep and the last thing I heard was the garage door shut. So my mind went to like oh, he must have went, you know, down the street, woke up maybe like an hour later, went downstairs to kind of start getting ready to because I knew my mom would be coming home to, you know, take me to work, and you know he wasn't around. You know my mind's registering oh yeah, I heard the garage door shut, he went down the street, but something just didn't feel right and you know you're just using logic in your mind. And mom came home, asked where my brother, matt, was and said, oh, you know, I heard him leave. I think he's down the street. And it was weird because even she was kind of, I mean, nothing was out of place. This is the same routine every Friday, but it's almost like that intuition, you know, especially that mother's instinct. You know she's asked me a million questions and took me to work and I kind of didn't let you know I just, how she reacted, didn't like sit well with me while I was at work, you know, and I'm trying to like replay everything, but you know, everything was as it was every Friday, same exact thing.

Sarah: 5:08

Come home from work, I worked like it was like a five to nine shift or five to 10. So come home, you know my dad's home at this point and they're kind of like asking me questions. And this was really before cell phones were super huge. So this is like 2005. So like we were in the midst of like that introduction of cell phones where, like we didn't have them on all the time and he had one and it was going. It was going straight to the voicemail, but you know, it was typical Friday and he'd be out late to begin with because he didn't have to work on a Saturday. And you know, kind of fast forward, you know, I, you know, went to bed because I had to work Saturday morning and Saturday morning I'll.

Sarah: 5:57

You know, I still, like my body just wakes up at the same time every morning. To this day. It's like seven o'clock in the morning and that was when my alarm was set to go off and it was probably a little bit before seven. I heard my dad saying to my mom like I don't think he came home because he was knocking on his door telling him to wake. You know, hey, you know, wake up. No answer there. And I know my mom stays up super late, so I know she was staying up for him.

Sarah: 6:27

So I hear my dad go downstairs and I just remember thinking, and then I just thought of like why he's kind of being really big trouble if, like, he didn't come home or you know, if he was out with friends and all this stuff.

Sarah: 6:41

And I kind of just like settled, I was laying in my bed, you know, just kind of like listening to like the sounds of the house and trying to fall back asleep Because I figure, oh, I've got like 10 minutes before my alarm goes off. And then I just remember, you know, like I could hear my dad going down in the basement and I heard this like ungodly sound of him, just like screaming, and I could hear Matthew, no, no, why. And I just immediately got up and ran down, ran down the stairs and you know our bedrooms were on the second floor, so going to the kitchen is where our basement door is, and I couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to go down the stairs, but I could sense something went wrong and I could just hear my dad down in the basement going my little boy, my little boy, why, why? And I just immediately went to the phone and called 911. Oh, wow.

Sarah: 7:45

And talked to the dispatcher and she's just like what's you know, what's your emergency? And just hearing my dad saying what he was saying, my mind immediately just went to. I think my brother just killed himself. Yeah.

Sarah: 8:01

And of course you're trying to like, you're not knowing that seeing. So I was on the phone calling for, you know, for an ambulance or for help, and my mom, at this point you know, going down down the stairs as well, and she has two bad knees and she's just moving as fast as her body can take her and you know going down, and you know so much. You know this is 2005. So so much is just like so fresh, but yet so so much you bury that you forget in some respect. But you know, I just remember being hesitant to go down the stairs to see him and I eventually did my. You know, I grew up in a Catholic home and my mom wanted, you know, a priest at the house. So she called for a priest and I did go. That's when I went down to see him.

Sarah: 9:04

He had taken an electric not to this is, you know, quite a trigger warning here but he had taken an electric electrical cord and, you know, put it on the beam in the basement and, you know, took his life that way. And when I saw that, I knew that you're putting the pieces of the puzzle together and I knew that when I heard the garage door shut. It must have been him going into the garage to get that and then I must have fell asleep not hearing him come back in. So you know, you're kind of like putting the pieces of the puzzle together, because nothing at the time was out of ordinary or out of place. Just, you know, I always say my life lesson is to always trust your good instinct, because the in my life the only regrets I have is not listening to it.

Sarah: 10:00

So, pretty much, you know, when you have a situation like that, obviously you have the paramedics there and you know, as a 17 year old kid, you obviously know this isn't good. But there's that little glimpse of hope in you, like you know, maybe or what, if you know, some miracle which they couldn't and you have. You have, like the police there as well. You know, and we're trying to like piece this puzzle together of like you know what I mean. Obviously you're knowing, you know how he passed, but how do you get to this? Because there's no note, there's nothing. And then the when the police went through his pockets they found like a pill case. And you know, I feel like siblings know they're each other better than they're, to an extent than their parents do. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: 10:53

You know, and I could say like he's not. Never was a person ever do drugs. So they ended up tearing up his room to find out like where do these pills possibly come from? And they found prescription bottles for some like heavy duty stuff, like lithium, lexa, pro strutera, and you know he's 21. And they're. You know my parents are like we know nothing of this. There's obviously a provider's name on those bottles. So they ended up calling and a person did answer the phone surprisingly like for it for, you know, a morning.

Sarah: 11:39

I don't know if my, my dad made the phone call, don't know if it was like an on call, and then you know you finally hear back from the provider. But the provider was an 82 year old psychiatrist and when my father talked to him he said I don't really remember him, but let me go to my office and check my notes, and you know you have to. The caveat here is if anyone's familiar with health care is HIPAA and my brother's 21. So my parents are not going to know because he's of legal age. So he, secretly, was seeing a psychiatrist and the doctor ended up calling my father back saying oh, yes, I have my notes. He thought he was bipolar, so my brother's diagnosing himself. Aren't you supposed to be doing that? Right.

Sarah: 12:45

And just had my brother on just a cocktail of some some hardcore stuff and you know my, my dad at that point got off the phone, you know, spoke with the primary care doctor and the primary care doctors, like I have test results that, trust me, you're going to want to get. So advise, like you should get an attorney, because there's like blood tests you, if you take lithium, you need regular blood work done. And the length of time just because you risk getting toxic, toxicity and you're supposed to get them frequently done. And he had only had one blood work done for that and it was very questionable, very concerning.

CJ Infantino: 13:33

Hmm, in terms of his toxicity, his levels?

Sarah: 13:37

Yeah, yeah, you know, not in a healthy position and it was the only one he had had. He should have probably had follow-ups. He probably should have had that dosage corrected. Yeah.

Sarah: 13:50

And then health insurance. Obviously you know a lot of the times anyone that has experience with health care situations you know the health insurances can definitely be difficult sometimes. But I will give them props for this because anytime a young individual passes away like that, they open up an investigation and they really went into this provider, the psychiatrist and you know, basically found wrongdoing on his part and we just got like it kind of made you sick because that Christmas his last Christmas, so he passed away in February 2005. So that Christmas, just a few months prior, he was really sick with what seemed to be like the stomach flu and my mom was also sick. So we assumed that maybe it was the food from Christmas.

Sarah: 14:52

But it wasn't yeah, but you know it's these little things that you don't realize until like after the fact. Yes.

Sarah: 15:02

And he you know according to the notes, like he had reached out to this psychiatrist and said on Christmas Day, saying I accidentally took an extra lithium. What do I do? I didn't realize, like I couldn't remember, that I had already taken it. So instead of and lithium is a very, very dangerous. With the levels of toxicity in your body, it's po it can basically be poison if it's not taken appropriately. And instead of telling my brother to get to an emergency room or please notify a family member to keep an eye on you, and I think there's a caveat. I could totally be wrong, but I think there's a caveat with HIPAA where you know there are certain situations where you can notify, but anyway, basically he told my brother to sleep it off.

Ashley Infantino: 15:55

Oh my. God, wow, wow.

Sarah: 16:02

So you know he, he just fell into the wrong hands. Yeah.

Sarah: 16:09

And you know there's so much like mental health is so important and these medicines not to like. I'm not saying you know these medicines help people when used correctly. When not used correctly they can be dangerous, especially, you know, if you have a provider who is not good. You know, especially an 82 year old person, but you know it just. It was a long process too, because my family fought to make sure that he wouldn't do this to other families with working, to make sure his license was taken away. I mean 82 years old, I think. I think at that point you can hang your head up anyway. But you know we again like through that process, like you, you get all this information about patient A, patient B. He was basically like feeding people who had addiction issues. He was basically feeding them the meds to feed their addiction.

Sarah: 17:07

Oh Jesus. So you're just finding out all this, all these layers of things that were popping up and, you know, just not a good situation. My brother was the only fatality, but you know we made sure that that wouldn't happen again and you know his license was taken away and he wasn't, you know, practicing anymore.

CJ Infantino: 17:28

So you had I'm assuming this was a long kind of drawn out legal battle.

Sarah: 17:33

Yeah, legal battles like that are a long process, usually at minimum like five years.

CJ Infantino: 17:40

Yeah. So this, I mean this starts unfolding as you're going through one the shock of losing your brother in that especially in such like a tragic way, right, and then dealing with like that shift and that change in the family dynamic. I'm assuming affected your parents and I'm interested to hear, yeah, More about that. But to deal with all of that and then to deal with this stuff unfolding and you said you were in a senior in high school at this point Right and you're supposed to be going off to kind of start your adult life.

CJ Infantino: 18:18

What was kind of that ongoing process for you of dealing with that grief and trying to get through, to grow with it and to deal with it and to process it as everything else was going on, Like to me. I hear it and I'm like, okay, you have that initial shock, you're in grief and then all of a sudden like more and more comes on where it's like I'm just piling onto that grief and that anger and that all that stuff has got to come up.

Sarah: 18:49

Well, I think it's tough because you there's just something, and so many people with loss can relate to this, and even if you delve back to the name of your podcast the day after, there is just something profound that happens with the shift when we lose the loved one, our whole world pauses, while it seems like others continues. Yes. Time warps and how we navigate in a reality is completely changed. I mean, I always look at it and explain it. You know, the clock keeps ticking for everybody else but us. Yes.

Sarah: 19:33

And it's the weirdest feeling, waking up the next day because there's that part of you that's like was that a dream? Yeah. Did that really? Is this real life? Yep.

Sarah: 19:50

And the immediate aftermath of losing someone close like that, our whole emotional world just takes a seismic shift and it's really hard to kind of encapsulate all of those feelings with how you're moving forward, that whole time perception. I think with the pace and it was just one foot, just literally waking up and putting one foot in front of the other and kind of dealing with this new reality For me as a 17-year-old. My friends were my rock, my parents. A lot of times stuff like this can easily split marriages up. I think it brought them closer. I think it brought us closer. However, again, you're a 17-year-old kid.

Sarah: 20:54

I just didn't want to be in that house, and I know that that is an adult now and is a mother, now a parent. I know that that must have stung a bit for them, especially my mom, but when it came to going away to school, I just I couldn't do it. I just couldn't imagine my parents have just lost a child, forever Going through something no parent should ever have to go through, and then imagine them in a sense losing me too, leaving the nest and just leaving them in this empty house full of this from this tragic event that's happened. I couldn't do it. I had planned on staying local for a semester before my brother passed away. I was going to go to ECC for a semester because I didn't get into Fredonia, even though I had really good grades but isn't that all? And I wanted to go to Fredonia because my dad went to Fredonia.

Sarah: 22:07

But the plan was fine I'll just do this for a semester and I'm going to Fredonia, and at that point I was also looking at schools in New York City for SUNY Purchase for film, and so I was like maybe I could just ditch the idea of ECC and just go to New York and do school there. And then when Matt passed, I couldn't do it. I couldn't leave them with an empty house. So I kind of decided, ok, maybe I'll stay home for a year and let this mend. I always like in stuff like this, as the initial trauma of losing somebody is a lot like getting cut up or a knife. You've been wounded. Time will close that wound and heal that wound, but there is always going to be a scar there, no matter what.

Sarah: 23:18

So I kind of thought maybe that could be the year of us kind of closing that wound up and me being there present and not home for them, and then move on from there. Whether it's Fredonia where I live, is 40-minute drive still close enough. So my first semester at ECC South Campus I ended up meeting my future husband, who's also named.

Sarah: 23:49

Matthew Weird twist there and hindsight there's obviously a lot of trauma to work through. I saw a lot that a 17-year-old suburban young adult should never have to see, should never have to experience with my older brother when it comes to losses like that. I didn't know life before my brother because he was always there and so it's kind of just getting used to whatever this new normal is and kind of going from there. I think my husband he's a very gentle soul, very kind, compassionate, and I think he came at the right time and really helped a lot with healing Even my parents too, going through all of. I met him, my husband, in August of 2005.

CJ Infantino: 24:49

Oh wow, that was really soon.

Sarah: 24:50

Yeah, he was literally coming in, kind of in the wings of the fallout.

Ashley Infantino: 24:58

And still going through the legal battle. I'm presuming.

Sarah: 25:00

Oh yeah, that took five years.

Ashley Infantino: 25:02

Yeah, I figured.

Sarah: 25:04

So that was going on for quite a bit, and so going through the first holidays, which are really really tough I think he kind of helped lighten it a bit. Obviously, those are still, as everyone knows, really really rough periods, and I think too, when you think about the day after, you think about the year after, and I think you have your support system, like your friends and your family, there for you at the one-year mark, but it's usually the second year.

Sarah: 25:38

You know, what I mean the second, the third and the fourth and the fifth year where there's that drop-off, you'll have a couple of friends probably shoot you a tag or a phone call, and it's usually the really close ones to you that always remember it. But he just kind of became that steady force of nature for me to really lean on.

CJ Infantino: 26:07

And what did that look like? What did that struggle look like for you? What was the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, the actions of your grief?

Sarah: 26:18

The what-ifs of what if I paid attention more to that gut instinct? What if I didn't fall asleep and I heard him come back in? Or I? You know what I mean, playing that whole scenario of I could have been the hero. That guilt, that push-pull guilt of what if? Is this my fault? Like I missed something? Clearly my. You know, something was clearly out of place, but we must have missed something. What did I miss? You know, if I pay attention to this, you know you're playing all those what if? Scenarios. You know what if I looked to left instead of right, kind of stuff which you can't, you know, obviously. You know if you could have, you would have Right. Um, you know there's no way in a million years would I have ever thought what happened would have happened. Yeah.

Sarah: 27:18

That's just not how my brother was. He was very, um, very active um in the community, um, he ran when he was 18, he like was on the news he ran for like village trustee in Hamburg, you know, just very active and involved in a people, person, um. So the outcome that happened I think nobody would have if you would have told them they would have been like, no, there's no way, that's it's going to happen, so.

Sarah: 27:47

So there was a lot of kind of coming to terms with, you know, trying to not to put blame on myself, um, my parents also wanted to teach me you know if you need help, if something in life is not going your way.

Sarah: 28:01

we want to show you the appropriate way to do that. And so they, you know, got me into um with a psychologist, um counseling to talk to somebody, because they really wanted to like set that precedent of you know, life will throw you curveballs. We want to give you the tools and show you how you get help the right way so you don't fall into um, fall into bad treatment like what your brother fell into.

CJ Infantino: 28:26

Right. What was the relationship with your mom and dad, your brother, you and your brother Like what's? What was the family dynamic before?

Sarah: 28:36

Before. Oh, that's um, my brother. I mean, it's it's hard to really strom up the words. Um, I think we were we're very close family my brother. Definitely he did have behavioral issues growing up. Um, I think he kind of had not. That I'm a diagnosis, you know going to diagnose him, but I think he had, like I think he had like ADD.

Sarah: 29:02

Um, you know he definitely had some like attention issues. Um, you know he could have behavioral problems in school and everything. Um, he could be brother of the year one moment and then kind of like not you know kind of a little rough around the edges. You know the next Um, but you know, overall, you know he was, I think about one of the biggest um, biggest um memories that I have when I think about him at his core, because it's it's it's easy to kind of go back and forth with that relationship of like the good and the bad times.

Sarah: 29:40

But I think about when I was in first grade I had a hard time. It's funny cause I'm a writer Um, I had a hard time learning how to read. You know I was um, I was, I am an introvert, I'm very quiet, um, soft spoken and I just remember, you know my parents would get tutors. They would help me um for hours on end and it was like I, I just didn't. You know, I just want to deal with it I didn't have the greatest teacher for my first grade year. She was just, she was rough. Um, you didn't want to like, you know how you'd get your jobs, and I was. If you were a line leader, good luck, cause she would squeeze the death out of your hand. So I just didn't. It's just like that's not the personality I'm going to respond to, right.

Sarah: 30:24

You know so, um, so it showed. And you know my brother, I just remember, like he, I think he recognized that that struggle because he struggled in school. So he pulled me to the side. You know, I'm in first grade, so he's four years older than me at that point and he's just like you know I, I know what it's like, so let me teach you. And he taught me how to read. So, yeah, so, like you know, so fifth grader did the job that a trained teacher should have been doing, but you know what I mean.

Sarah: 31:02

But you know I responded to him and he, he was there for me in that moment and you know, I guess you know I owe my ability to read and my ability to write from that. So you know you think about the bad. But there's those good moments too, and I think you know I think about the moment too when I was 15 and a boy kept calling me and I felt so bad because I didn't like him the way he liked me and my brother didn't really have a lot of experience with girls, but he gave me something that was profound that I just really lived my life to, and he said to me would you marry somebody? Because you felt bad. And I said absolutely not. And he's like then why would you waste your time and why would you waste his time? And that, just for whatever reason, at 15 years old, hit me like dang he's right.

Sarah: 31:54

So every, every boy I ever like dated or thought or, you know, thought they might like me. I always viewed it like would I? You know, should I waste my? Is this a waste of my time or not, you know? Even from that age. So it was profound advice. So he had his difficulties and um in what now? But there were always moments where he, you know, would do something profound.

CJ Infantino: 32:15

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So you guys are pretty close so. And then you said, after he passed your mom and dad, they got even closer and yeah, we just pretty much really leaned on one another.

Ashley Infantino: 32:27

And how did the whole like legal side of things you know, impacted the grieving process and the weeks and the months and the years that followed?

Sarah: 32:39

Um, well, that was in many retrospects. I mean, my parents, you know, and they've raised me to really kind of be like, be the good in the world that you want to be, and they were. Really. It was two things. Number one they they and myself as well did not want this person to be being responsible for potentially another life ending. Because when you think about every loss, you know whether it's, whether it's suicide, whether it's illness, um, whether it's even old age, like whatever, the, you know, whatever it is that really impacts you in your life and your life trajectory, where you're going to go. And that was number one of we don't want this to ever happen to anybody else. And number two it's, you know, it's vengeance in some respect. You know you want to, you want that person to have responsibility for what they've done.

CJ Infantino: 33:43

Yeah, and it's I mean to honor your brother, right, Right, yeah, to honor, like he was just trying to get help.

Ashley Infantino: 33:50

Yeah, exactly, it is hard though, because those I mean even I have a friend who's but dad passed in there was definitely some malpractice, just like he had sickness and all that stuff, but and her, her mom, really just was like I can't, like I can't, I can't put myself through that process, to go through that and like relive this all so and I, I could see both sides like it's so so hard to continue Like you're grieving, you're grieving as it is and that is like a huge, that is a lifelong process, and to have that going on on the side, um, in this case, you know, um, maybe it was a little bit more cut and dry, so it was. I mean, it was something where it was. You know it was. It was like this is we can see the end and we know we're going to.

Sarah: 34:35

You know we're not going to win, but yeah, M-Mental health cases are incredibly hard to prove, number one. So it was a challenge period because certain certain medical malpractices there can be obvious negligence. You know, surgery and you can say like this is obviously, you know the surgeon messed up.

Ashley Infantino: 35:00

X, y and Z yeah, like there's. There's still a towel in me Like you obviously messed up. You clearly clearly done something wrong.

Sarah: 35:07

You clearly have done something wrong. But mental health is so different because the mind um, you know we've made advances now where you can take MRIs of the brain and kind of get a feel of you know yeah, yep.

Ashley Infantino: 35:45

Yeah, totally, I mean, it's certainly not. As you know, it's like the headlines now are all about mental health. Employers are worried about mental health and the mental health of their employees, and in 2005, I don't think that was the case.

Sarah: 36:00

That's 18 years ago and you think about it. So that was still like. Everything was very still. Don't leave, you know, nobody likes labels right, you know whether you have anxiety, whether you know whatever you have or you didn't tell someone you were going to therapy Exactly.

Ashley Infantino: 36:17

Now it's like I love it, I love it, I love the culture that it is. Now I swear by it.

Sarah: 36:20

I mean you know I go and I think it's so important I think everybody should go, no matter what you've been through. You know, I think it's really really important to even have like an outside perspective to help you, you know, help you along and give you tools and everything. But yeah, I mean, when you think about it, like my brother didn't tell my parents, didn't say anything to me. So yeah, I mean.

CJ Infantino: 36:46

Yeah, that's a challenge. I think right now, while we have the conversation around, mental health is changing and it's so much better Because I remember like I was very, very I struggled a lot with depression, especially in my teenage and early twenties, and anxiety, but there was no language around it. I used to think I was dying, like I thought I was going to die in my sleep, but it was just panic attacks but I didn't know. It's like I can't breathe, something's wrong with me. But I think now we've it's. It's so much in the open that there's like this new thing of like this toxic positivity of like just be happy, just smile, like just you know, have magical, happy thinking.

CJ Infantino: 37:27

And I think that could be equally as dangerous as like putting stigmas on it, because we have to be allowed to say, like shit is terrible right now and that's okay, and to acknowledge it so that way we can move forward in it.

Sarah: 37:41

Well, I think even to add another layer to that. When you think about social media and everyone's got pictures of you know everyone's putting out the best. I'm guilty of it too, but you know putting out the you know the photo of, like your amazing meal that you're having. You know you're living your best life in, you know on vacation or something. You know we're looking at everybody's feet saying like, why am I so miserable, when it's really not just you. Everybody, you know, has their thing. That's going on. We all have a story.

CJ Infantino: 38:15

Exactly, yeah, you know for better or for worse we all have a story.

CJ Infantino: 38:21

When you went to college, you stayed local. You met your boyfriend, now husband. I'm curious like, as that progressed and you got further and further into your adulthood, what were the things that you carried in that grief Like? What did the interactions with your parents look like? What are the interactions with your boyfriend and then husband look like? Like, what were the moments in your life where, like, oh shit, this is, this is me being triggered, processing my grief, this is what's going on? Like? What were those moments? What did that look like?

Sarah: 38:59

That's a good question For me. For a while, even though I was in therapy, I just figured I would just like put stuff in a box in my brain and. I'll deal with that later.

Sarah: 39:16

Or I'll have a good. You know I'll deal with that later. I'll have a good cry in the shower and I'm going to move on, you know, and you really need to process it. And again, therapy is going to help kind of like dredge all that out and give you coping skills. But for me it was about I'd be kind of. I guess I became really into having control of what's going on in my life. I feel that you know what I mean. Like I'm Taipei to begin with.

Ashley Infantino: 39:51

Ask my boyfriend how he feels about that.

Sarah: 39:56

Ask my husband as well, my husband's definitely like the yin, we're the yin to the yang, like he's so laid back and he's just very like whatever life brings, life will bring and I'm like, well, I need to have a survival plan.

Ashley Infantino: 40:09

Yeah, what do I do?

Sarah: 40:10

That's a lot of Wi-Fi's, yeah, you know like I need to have a plan A, b, c, d, e. I think I had like when I went on, when we had our first child, when I went on maternity leave, I had like I had A, b, C, d, e, F plans for employer Like if this happens, I'm going to do this.

Sarah: 40:30

So for me, like control was like a huge thing of. I kind of need to be in the driver's seat, I need to make sure you know I've got control of my emotions. I'll deal with this in the shower and then, like the fear of for me, the fear of who else is going to go on me. Yeah, yeah. That is huge.

CJ Infantino: 40:56

You still feel that now.

Sarah: 40:58

Yes, but that was replaced with when I was pregnant with my first kid, our daughter Genevieve. When I was 11 weeks pregnant, I found a tumor on my jaw so I had to have surgery. It was benign, 11 weeks after she was born, and then, after the birth of her second kid, I got really sick and got diagnosed with celiac disease. So those two.

Ashley Infantino: 41:24

Oh my gosh Jeez Louise.

Sarah: 41:26

Those two situations it became very apparent to me I had spent almost two decades worrying about who am I going to lose next? And then the realization of I'm not ready to go. These are two situations where the first time my mortality kind of came into play. So that kind of you know wakes you up a bit as well.

CJ Infantino: 41:48

Yeah, I had a weird experience of like watching my wife die. So she died of breast cancer over five and a half years and it was like a trauma adjacent where I'm like watching her body deteriorate and one of the possible things that would happen to her is losing her sight from the medication and then tumors growing in her brain and to this day I still feel like I'm going to have that stuff happen because it was going to happen to her. So I play tennis. If I'm playing tennis and I like look up at the sun or I look up at the lights and like my eyes get messed up, like I start panicking and I'm like I'm going to lose my vision and it's just that like weird sensation of feeling, like that, like all this stuff that's happening to her is going to happen to me and then needing control over that.

Sarah: 42:41

Like.

CJ Infantino: 42:42

I totally relate to that control.

Sarah: 42:44

Yeah, especially to like, even after what I went through after our second daughter, like the same thing, like I'll be like this feels off. What if I'm like, what if something else is strange is going to happen to me? You know what? I mean, and it's just, I think it is from loss and then from what you've gone through it's that, that fear, and like you need to be in control and you have to.

Sarah: 43:06

You know I'm still working on like the coming to terms of like you're not always going to have control and my husband, you know he'll. You know, when I was going through my health, stuff was like everything will work out, and you're sure I spent like eight months really really sick after we had our second and I thought I was dying and you know, silly act, I didn't get diagnosed until I had an endoscopy. So I spent eight months like what is happening to me Cause I lost a lot of weight. Obviously, if you anybody who has like a digestive disease but yeah, it's I think that's a lot of trauma to hit on, you know, on both ends too, especially like I completely understand like what you're saying from from that that point of view.

CJ Infantino: 43:54

I'd like, I wanted to control everything, like I would read every book, I would find every research I can and I'm like take these supplements, eat this diet, and we would go on all these different diets and there was one moment it was probably so. She passed in 2020. So it was probably like the end of 2018. It was pretty close to her dying, where I walked upstairs and I remember walking in the room, she was already in bed and she looked at me and she was like fucking stop, just stop. And she's like I'm not taking these pills anymore, I'm not doing all these things. She's like I need to live my life. And she was very much like your husband, where she's like whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and this is just what's going on, and and she's like I need to live my life and just enjoy the time that I have left. And it was a really like humbling experience for me to be like oh right, I need to cut this shit out, and so I.

CJ Infantino: 44:51

I like I can definitely relate to that and she was the more relaxed one of the two of us, which in some ways was good, in some ways was bad. Like she stopped letting me go to her appointments because she's like you just come into the appointment and you just cry the whole time. I was like no shit, I'm fucking crying.

Ashley Infantino: 45:07

I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. What am I going to do, but?

CJ Infantino: 45:10

she for her. She literally is like I'm not going to worry about it until I have the results in my hand, and I was like, cool, I'm going to worry about it for the rest of my life Every day, yeah, every day, until we get the results.

Sarah: 45:23

Yes, yes, yes, that is yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm UCJ.

CJ Infantino: 45:27

Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's just.

Ashley Infantino: 45:30

I definitely relate to that now, to be fair, I go both ways. I feel like I go either. It depends on the situation. I wish I could go either.

Sarah: 45:38

Me too.

Ashley Infantino: 45:38

I wish I could switch it in and out. Yeah, sometimes I'm like endless worry, work, and then sometimes I'm like, oh, it'll be what it'll be.

Sarah: 45:45

And then, like you know, your kids CJ, you have kids you said I do.

CJ Infantino: 45:49

So then are you the same Cause.

Sarah: 45:49

Like anytime my kids get sick, like my daughter had the stomach flu and I'm like what if it's her appendix? I just go like crazy.

CJ Infantino: 45:56

I do my. Uh. Six months after my wife died, my son and actually when you were talking about your tumor and your jaw, he had a tumor in his neck. Oh boy. And we went through a month and I was like, oh my God, I'm taking him to the testing. We're in the, we're in the doctor's office after a month of testing and the ANT he's like looking at him, he starts asking him this line of questioning and I was like I know where this is going and I just felt that drop in my stomach. He left, came back in, or doctors showed up and they start, like you know, talking amongst themselves and they're like you know, it's, it's likely cancer.

CJ Infantino: 46:33

Um, because of the way it was, so he had to have surgery and like that was just this whole big thing. So I definitely get that way with the kids in weird ways or like cause I never used to worry about them, you know like. I know like parents get super. I never used to. But now, like they're 15, 13 and 11. If they're sleeping I'll go in the room and check to make sure they're breathing. Like I just get like so weird sometimes about it.

Sarah: 47:00

Well, it's also an extension of your wife. It's these, you know, it's the two of you together and it's you know, it's these pieces of her too, you know, so it's also that as well, I'm sure.

CJ Infantino: 47:11

Yeah, yeah, and just the fact of like. I can't handle it when shit goes wrong, like we just had our dog die. I'm sorry. I was like I can't fucking do this shit alone. I'm like so like she was the one that handle all that. I don't, I just melt into a puddle of anxiety.

Ashley Infantino: 47:27

I go into like handle it mode, that's that's where I can take control. So do you can part-medalize though. Do you can part-medalize actually? Well, it just depends on the situations. I play out like every scenario in my head. I'm like okay, if it's A, I'll do this, and if it's B, I'll do this. And as long as there's like a, not so like shitty situation, I can like wrap my. I can just like look to that like okay, if it's that, like that's the worst case scenario. We'll live.

Sarah: 47:51

I gotta say I kind of agree with you. When it's not me, I can get into survivor mode and go. We need to do this.

Ashley Infantino: 47:57

But yeah, yeah, I'm definitely like going to survivor mode, but in everyday things I just I think adults are dependent at ebden flowed throughout my life, like now. I I feel like I have more to lose now, or I just have more people in my life, like my boyfriend and I. We have two dogs, we had three dogs, and so I think it's like more prevalent now than it was, say, three years ago, when I was just like all I needed to do was like work and go to the pub after work.

Ashley Infantino: 48:27

So I'm surely not that many cares in the world for a mid 20, something that just you know, gets drunk most of the day, most of the week. I should say not drinking during work hours, I promise yeah, after 10am, like only after 5.30. Between 5.30 and 1.

Ashley Infantino: 48:50

Just get some hot water for the day, yeah exactly, exactly, coconut water was the, was the gem, but yeah, I think it really has ebden flowed like throughout my life and I'm sure that, like when I was younger and like as an older sibling, it was more. I like, if you ask my siblings, I'm sure they were like thinking I was being bossy, but really I was just trying to like make sure that everything was okay, or they were okay, or right.

Ashley Infantino: 49:13

So I'm sure I'm sure that that was kind of taken as that, because even sometimes I mean, I don't think, I think that even like my friends now would just be like actually just takes care of it.

Ashley Infantino: 49:22

And I'm the mom of, I'm in the mom of the friend group, so I get one even, and sometimes it's not like mom in the motherly way, it's just like if there's no something that needs to be taken care of like, I'll do it. Yeah, and that's just like. I've always worn that hat and sometimes it's motherly, sometimes it's not.

CJ Infantino: 49:40

Or it's motherly, in your own way.

Ashley Infantino: 49:41

Yeah, it's probably that actually that's a very good way to put it it is motherly in my own way. But yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely ebden flowed and I also think that, like you know, the fact that we have like mass shootings happening every fucking day doesn't help.

Ashley Infantino: 49:59

Right the cost anymore, because now it's like we could literally be going to the grocery store and, right, it can happen, you know, and it's it's not because of this like terrible, shitty disease or you know, you know, like in that again, like 20 years ago it was, I'm sure those things were still happening if you look at statistics, but certainly less prevalent, and that's something you can control to an extent. You can't control it, you get cancer, but you can control, like doing chemo or your course of treatment. Right, you know, now it's like you're just going to the grocery store. You literally can't do anything to like not do that, unless you just don't go to the grocery store, then you're not living life. So I think those things, yeah, have played into, like have influenced it, like it's obviously they're the root causes there, but it's not like all because I lost my mom at nine. There's, you know, there's, then there's just like life that's happened and it's all related in a way. Yeah, that makes sense.

CJ Infantino: 50:58

When you had your kids or now that you have them, how old are they?

Sarah: 51:04

My oldest will be turning six on Friday. Okay, happy birthday.

Ashley Infantino: 51:09

Genevieve.

Sarah: 51:10

Thank you. And Audrey is 21 months right now.

CJ Infantino: 51:15

Okay, yeah, so young. What is the? Was there any thought when you decided to have kids about the relationship you had with your brother and any fear of yeah. What does?

Sarah: 51:31

that look like? What does it look?

CJ Infantino: 51:33

like right now.

Sarah: 51:36

So before we had kids and that was something I worked on through therapy I was really scared to have kids for a couple of reasons. I obviously wanted to be a parent, but I watched my parents lose a child. I watched them over his body and that hit me really hard to see that type of loss, because no parent should have to bury their child and I was afraid of losing my child in either the same way or even whether it was illness.

Sarah: 52:18

You know what I mean. I just don't know. I still don't think I could handle it. I don't know how my parents did it, now that I am a parent, because those people are really special to me. I was afraid honestly of because our relationship was hot and cold, my brother and I because he did have some behavioral issues and, I do think, mental health issues. I was afraid of my kids maybe having similar mental health challenges and you know kind of trying to navigate that, you know, to the best of my ability, Just kind of, just like, really kind of afraid of history repeating itself.

Ashley Infantino: 53:11

Correct, yeah, I feel that.

Sarah: 53:14

And yeah, it's definitely a thing to that's really difficult to get over or try to try to pass. But you know, I had done therapy and kind of worked through it. I really did want to be a parent, you know, and it's the greatest thing I've ever done.

Sarah: 53:35

You know my girls are, you know, huge inspiration to me and you know, when you're a professional in the marketing field like I am and you know especially you, Ashley as well I feel like we're especially as women we are, you know, kind of in that zone of we need to kind of separate ourselves and really do well for ourselves in the field and kind of. I think you feel this rush to get your career going and, you know, making your impact, because you feel sometimes you know you get this notion of like, oh, five kids, am I going to have to take a step back? Yeah.

Sarah: 54:14

You know, with that and I don't know why now I don't know why I felt that way, because, if anything, I felt more inspired, I felt my career like really trudged forward, even more so after becoming a parent. But yeah, there was like a lot of things to work through and a lot of fears. And you know, I still have those fears because I never want anything to happen to them. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: 54:39

You know, and I, you know, just wish that you know, you wish those obstacles were never in your way. But that's also what makes us the human experience, unfortunately. Those fears, those anxieties, the good and the bad.

CJ Infantino: 54:55

Yeah, absolutely. Are you? Do you find yourself looking for like instances where like, or are they starting to present some mental illness?

Sarah: 55:05

I will say right now no, they're not. I've kind of noticed a pattern in my family that's this is going to sound strange, but I noticed a lot of the males. Certain males in my family tend to have the issues, the mental health issues, whereas the women don't. So there was a fear I had. You know, if I have a son, is you know that going to be? You know, is that going to be it? And then you know I had daughters and you know I will say you know they have not shown signs of any of that, but you know we're in the present day and you know, if they ever did, I know the appropriate ways to kind of get them help and address things.

Sarah: 55:54

Not to say that my parents didn't know. They worked very hard with him, you know, when he was younger, with counseling and everything. But you know that was the 90s when they were going through counseling with him trying to get him help, which was just a totally different era for mental health, oh yeah, without a doubt that could be another podcast. Oh yeah. That'll be our second one, the day before the day before the prequel yeah, yeah, that makes sense, like I know there's been.

CJ Infantino: 56:34

It's not the same but I, like I know I see some of my struggles that I've had in some of my children and it's, On one hand, it's like it's great that I can relate and try to help. On the other hand, they're growing up in a whole new world that I didn't grow up in, so I can't necessarily empathize with the experience that they're having, other than the symptoms of it. And also, seeing your children struggle in the ways that you did it really it really wrecks me really badly and I've realized that the only thing that I could do is create an environment that allows them to feel honestly. However, they need to feel and also let go of my ego that I'm not going to be the one to rescue them and it's most likely going to be somebody else, and I need to be open and willing to find that person for them, right. Right.

CJ Infantino: 57:38

Maybe it's a therapist, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's another adult in my family, but I wanted to be the one Like, especially early on in the grief. I'm like I want to be the one that can be everything to them, but I'm like I can't. I had to let that go, Right. Or I have to let that go, because it's still an ongoing process.

Sarah: 57:56

It's a process and there's so much that you need to work through too.

Sarah: 58:02

And you need to work through individually. I will say too, if there's one thing kind of like going back to what you're asking me, I do, genevieve is a lot like me, she even looks like me. So it's like that many. So I see that there's joys with that, and then there's things, but I see that anxiousness that I have a bit. We were just like she was four at this time and she or no, she was five. She had asked me, I don't know. We got into the discussion of having children for some reason. I was five-year-old and she was just like I want to be a mom but I don't want to be pregnant. And I was just like.

Sarah: 58:42

Well, what woman does? Yeah, seriously. And because it's not really that great. And then she was just like well, and I asked her trying to be Get down to her level. I guess I was like oh what makes you say that. And she's like I don't want your issues. And she's like pointing at me because I was, I got sick and I had celiac, and so she was very aware of what was going on while I was sick and I was like, oh no, you're just hoping at that age that they're not as aware.

CJ Infantino: 59:17

They're so aware.

Sarah: 59:18

They're very, very aware. You're like great, I have totally scarred you for life. And I just said to her well, I can't guarantee what's going to or not going to happen to you. That's the truth. And I will say, if you ever did get sick like I did, you can tell your doctor right off the bat. My mom has the celiac disease, test me for it. This is exactly what happened to her after she had my sister, and you would get a diagnosis quicker than I did. So you've got the F going for you.

Sarah: 1:00:00

And she was like well, the whole conversation of, well, if I wanted to be a mom, how can I do that? So I talked to her and taught her about adoption and all that stuff and what that is, and she's like well, that sounds cool, I want to do that. So there's these interesting conversations. I feel like that with our generation is having with our kids. That either. I don't know if they ever presented themselves. I mean, my parents have always been pretty open with talking. That I can remember as a kid, but I still remember topics like this coming up.

Ashley Infantino: 1:00:35

Myself.

Sarah: 1:00:37

But I think it's just really interesting. But it was interesting to talk it through with her and see those wheels turn. How is?

Ashley Infantino: 1:00:45

I mean grandparents obviously love their grandchildren, but do you feel like it's extra special for them?

Sarah: 1:00:53

It is. It's almost nothing will replace my brother Matt, obviously, but it is almost like a second chance. You know, you think, you know I see it from my perspective as a parent like that. You know, you sacrifice your body for nine months, you deliver a child. However, that delivery is my mom did not do an epidural. She's crazy. So she had. She's a wild woman, you know. Two kids without an epidural is wild, because I went through labor with Genevieve for a while without one and she's nuts. She's a tough woman, but anyway, you know.

Sarah: 1:01:38

And then to raise a child and then to lose that child, yeah, again, like I've said, I can never fathom what that feels like and I never want to ever know it and you know. So for me to see my parents get almost the second shot, my mom, basically, you know, watches the girls while we work. So we're very, very fortunate to have that for childcare. So you know, my girls are obviously benefiting to having that one-on-one time, especially with a grandparent and my dad. You know, obviously they rotate, my father watches them as well. So there's definitely this second chance really to like you're raising, you know, the second set of grandkids and you know, I think there's that joy. And then there's also the joy of, at the end of the day, you can kind of say, hey, I'll see you later. Yeah exactly.

Ashley Infantino: 1:02:39

These are yours now, yeah.

CJ Infantino: 1:02:42

That is the best part of being a grandparent and I'm a still-man.

Sarah: 1:02:45

I think so, and even my parents said you know you spend your, you've got your career, so you don't get that time with your actual kids. So my dad even said, it is kind of like a second chance to be there for everything, and it's really, it's really neat. That's amazing.

CJ Infantino: 1:03:02

When you act in a way that's incongru with how you want to act with your children. What? What kind of initially like I wonder if there's more charge there when you realize like okay, I just I yelled or I did something that is not the way that I want to present myself or act towards my kids. Is it especially charged when you think back to, like your brother and your parents' experience and everything?

Sarah: 1:03:27

I'm definitely, I'm very mindful. My friend is a psychologist and she runs. She's a child psychologist by education and she runs a group called Gentle Parenting Institute in Buffalo, new York. So I had the luxury of knowing her before I had kids and watching her launch this Gentle Parenting Initiative, which is really, I guess it's as it sounds. With gentle parenting, you know you're not letting your kids walk all over you but you are, you know, having like this, this mutual respect with the child and and trying to like nurture things and talk through things in a, I guess, humane manner, as opposed to some kids who would just get, you know, corporal punishment or something like that you

Sarah: 1:04:25

know, so do I make mistakes as a parent? I think we all do, unfortunately, you know we have. We all have the best intentions, but I do put a lot of thought and if I have a moment of, you know, being frustrated I've got a million things going and my kids, like you know, constantly in my ear while I'm trying to work and I snap, you know I always take a moment to step back and like apologize and just explain that I'm so sorry, I was in the middle of working. I know you're trying to talk to me, you're. You know, explain as much as I can and, you know, really apologize, because I want her to all, both of them, to take ownership when they do wrong as well as they age right. And also, I know what it's like to not know like what if that's the last interaction you have, right?

Ashley Infantino: 1:05:24

yeah cuz.

Sarah: 1:05:24

That's what I think now you know, the last interaction I had with my brother was I'm watching Oprah. What does it look like?

Ashley Infantino: 1:05:29

I'm watching you know what I mean.

Sarah: 1:05:30

Like this is the last thing I said to him, and you know, and it was as an annoyed sibling, so you never know when the last point of contact will be with somebody, unfortunately. So, to try to be, as you know, kind as you can and we're all human, we don't, we're not always perfect or say the right things or do the right things. You know what I mean.

CJ Infantino: 1:05:54

But most of the time.

Sarah: 1:05:57

I'm not perfect it's the unfortunate part of humanity, you know yeah, but human experience absolutely do you and we'll.

CJ Infantino: 1:06:09

We can get close to finishing up here. Do you have any rituals or signs or things that you do to to reconnect with Matt?

Sarah: 1:06:20

so there's a couple things. I had dreams when he first passed and, as my life settled, I haven't had a dream with him in for years, but the very first dream I had with him was probably within the first week that he passed. I had a dream we had an office, a den, in our you know, our house and he was there and I was very startled and I was like you're supposed to be dad, why are you here? And he was very light, very like happy, and you know he was just like don't worry about anything, I'm okay. And then he gave me his wallet and I was just letting his drink in the stream and I'm just like I don't need, I don't want your wallet. And he's like well, where I'm at, I don't need this and I said just I just don't, I don't want your wallet.

Sarah: 1:07:20

So he walked away into the kitchen, threw it away because I wouldn't take it and disappeared. But then in my you know, I was just like curious. So I went into the garbage and got the wallet and you know there was money in it, it was like $13. And then I threw it back in the garbage and I told my parents. I told my dad about the dream first, and my dad had asked how much money was in the wallet and I told him was $13 and the police had taken his belongings.

Sarah: 1:07:53

You know whether it's part of the investigation or what have you and they had returned it to my parents and my dad's like well, there was $13 in the wallet I? There's no way there's no way there's so many. I had dreams.

Sarah: 1:08:08

I would say gosh, I love that, gives me chills yeah, I had dreams like you wouldn't believe, with messages that ended up being stuff, and the last stream I had was probably like the 2009 or 10. I had a dream this was probably 2008. I had this dream where I really wanted. I was interning at the Hamburg Sun and I really wanted to work there because they had an opening for a job and I was technically still in my senior year at Hilbert College and I had this dream where he was like you're gonna get it this is yours, this is your opportunity.

Sarah: 1:08:58

And I was like in the Sun offices and it was like he's passing me a torch, it was. It was like a weird symbol or something. And then this other person ended up getting the job. So I'm like, oh man, that sucks. And then the person never showed up to work again no way, oh well so he gave, you know, the, my old boss gave me the job.

Sarah: 1:09:23

So I've had multiple dreams. So the last time I had a dream with him and it was probably like 2009, 2010 and I feel like as life got settled he kind of backed off and I wish I would have had him pop in a dream when I went through like a lot of my health stuff. But you know, the messages come when they come and you know, also, to every year for his anniversary we go to our a psychic, a family friend of ours, peggy, who is unbelievable. So the stuff that she's told us, that there's, you know, stuff I've never told the soul that she's picked up on has been really helpful for healing. You know, it kind of gives you that sense that this isn't it and they're still very, very much a part of our lives, even though they're not here physically yeah, that's amazing.

CJ Infantino: 1:10:26

That's awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. So the last question what advice or what would you want to say to anybody who has gone through or is going through what you've gone through?

Sarah: 1:10:39

well, it doesn't seem like it right now, but when you're far removed from whatever is going on you, everything happens in life for a reason, whether it's good, whether it's bad, and from the bad good can come. You know, and you know I'd love to have my brother here with me in this present moment. But you know, I think about my life trajectory and if you know, if he didn't pass and say I decided to, you know, go to Suni purchase, you know I never would have met my husband, never would have had the life that we have. You know the children that I have.

Sarah: 1:11:28

So basically it doesn't seem like it, but sometimes you know your life path can bring you something beautiful from something really ugly. You know good can come from bad and you know, watch for the signs because they are there. Sometimes you got to dig a little bit or you know you really got to pay attention and I know some signs from the loved ones come easier to others than you know some folks, but you know there are signs there that they're still very much part of our lives that's awesome.

CJ Infantino: 1:12:03

Yeah, that's amazing. Signs definitely are hard to come by for me.

Sarah: 1:12:08

That's, that's been a big struggle for me it is a struggle, I know, like because I was having dreams and my poor mother like not you know what she'd still to this day. You know just hopes and praise for it, for something from him. So I know it's tough.

CJ Infantino: 1:12:25

Well, we don't want to keep you anymore. We're so grateful for you to share with us. Yeah, is that perfect?

Sarah: 1:12:31

yes, look at that but yeah, so thank you for for being on, thank you for sharing your brother with us and and your family, and yeah, just thank you so much well, thank you for having me and I appreciate you guys having a platform because I know that this is going to help people and you know, I wish this was around 18 years ago, but we would have been kiddos ourselves, but you know, I think it's gonna definitely, you know, help a lot of people. So I appreciate CJ and Ashley you guys doing this for folks thank you for listening to this episode of the day after.

Ashley Infantino: 1:13:12

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