Embracing Signs: Kim's Story of Messages from Beyond and New Beginnings | The Day After Ep 22

In this emotionally charged episode of The Day After, CJ Infantino and Ashley Infantino are joined by guest Kim, who shares her tragic yet inspiring journey through grief and loss. Kim's husband was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, and she opens up about the difficult decisions they made as a family, including when and how to tell their children about his impending death.

Kim bravely recounts the heartbreaking moments leading up to her husband's passing and the profound impact it had on her and their children. She discusses her experiences with grief, the power of signs and coincidences, and finding love again after loss. Kim's resilience and strength shine through as she reflects on navigating a world without her husband, finding happiness, and supporting her children's individual paths. 

Join CJ, Ashley, and Kim in this deeply touching episode as they explore the complexities of grief, the importance of open communication, and the possibility of healing and finding joy amidst immense pain.

Transcript

KIm: 0:00

I had gone to see a grief counselor just to ask them, what do I do? What do I say? How do I say it? I don't know how to do this. And she was very clear that you need to use the real words. You need to say death and dying and use the words. Because her point, which was a good one, was if you tell your kids that their dad is sick, Then they think he's going to get better sickness, you get better from a sickness, but then if he doesn't get better, then maybe anytime they got sick, they might think they're going to die.

CJ: 0:37

Hey, welcome to another fun filled episode about death and grief. Today's episode, Kim joins us and shares about the loss of her husband and father to her two boys. Now, after recording this episode, I immediately walked upstairs and told my kids they can stop playing their violins. So listen in and see how her story made an immediate change and impact on my own life. And while I have you, you know what I'm going to say. Don't forget we have the day after. Plus for anyone who wants to help support the show, it goes a long way to help us continue to bring you the show and our guest stories. So if you go to the day after.com. You can go ahead and contribute to the show. All right, pull over from the side of the road, recline that seat, turn the dial and enjoy the show.

KIm: 1:26

Yeah. So I'm a widow and my husband died in 2014. So February of 2014, he was diagnosed with glioblastoma, which is a terminal brain cancer the year prior to that. So on. Valentine's day of February, 2013, we found out that he was terminal. He had terminal cancer and had 12 to 15 months to live. So I remember that day very clearly because it was Valentine's day. My kids were in elementary school and I was supposed to go to. They're classrooms for Valentine's Day parties, right? Like you do when your kids are in elementary and he had been complaining. He'd been sick for, you know, a couple of days. We thought maybe he had the flu. He'd been not feeling well. He was in bed for a couple of days and I'm thinking, when is he going to go to the doctor? Like, why are you staying in bed for so long? Like, you're not feeling well, you should go get checked out. He wouldn't go to the doctor, but the morning of the 13th or the Valentine's Day, he woke up and he was trying, he was giving me a card that he had written to me on Valentine's Day, but he, the night before, but he couldn't write his name. So he hands me this card and I see like squiggly lines where his name should have been. And I was like, this is bad. We need to go to the doctor. So we did, we literally went to the family doctor and he said, what are you doing here? You need to go to the emergency room. So it was just kind of like a blur. Like the morning was, okay, I'm going to go to the Valentine's parties at school. Then I see that my husband can't write his name. Now we're on the way to the emergency room. Very strange set of events. So by the time we got to the emergency room, we thought maybe he had his doctor, thought maybe he had meningitis or something, but we just didn't know. So. We go in, they do some CAT scans because of his symptoms with, you know, confusion and headache and stuff. And they come back and the neurosurgeon on call said, you have glial blastoma. Well, I didn't know what that was. He didn't know what that was. So we're like, what does that mean? Well, he said, do you have 12 to 15 months to live? Please treat each day going forward as a gift. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So we just sit in this hospital room. Like what just happened? What we don't understand what's going on. What do you mean? You have 12 to 15 months to live. I have no idea what glioblastoma is. Never heard of it before. So he needed to have surgery. The doctor was emphatic that he had to have surgery to remove this tumor. But the reason that it's terminal because it comes back. So there's even if you take the tumor out, it will grow back again and it's in your brain. So there's certain. Lines they can't cross and they can't get all the tumor, you know, out all, all together. So at the time my husband was self employed. He owned a chemical business here in Metro Detroit, so he sold chemicals to the metal processing industry in Detroit. Well, we find out that he needs to have the surgery and he's afraid he's not going to come out of it because they're going into his brain. So he says, you need to take over running the business. You need to take over my business and I'm going to give you all the information that I can in the next week. His surgery was scheduled for a week out and then you can take it over. And I was like, I, again, what's happening. I'm not sure what to do with this information, but it was so fast, you guys, because. We didn't know he was, you know, that sick, then they give him literally like a countdown to death. Then he has to have surgery on his brain that he may or may not come out of, and he runs his business. So he says, you need to take over. So I was like, okay, I don't even know what to say, but I've said this in, in other instances too, with you don't tell a dying man, no. So, okay, I'll take over running your business if that's what I need to do. So he gave me all of his formulas and he was writing down on like yellow legal pads, all this stuff that I needed to know for the business in the hospital room before he went in for a surgery. So he ended up coming out of the surgery fine. It took maybe 95 percent of his tumor. It was very successful surgery. It was great, but we still knew that was just buying time. That was all we were doing was buying time. So we decided to not tell our kids right away That their dad's cancer was terminal because they were 8 and 10 years old at the time. So imagine carrying the weight of that knowledge that you're, you know, that you're, my husband carrying the weight that he's going to die, me carrying the weight that I know my husband is going to die and then trying to tell your kids, I didn't know how to do that. I was like, I'm not sure that that's something that they need to carry that weight for as long as we have, you know, as long as we will. So you know, we struggled. When's the right time to tell them? What should we do? So we kept him informed about the cancer and the tumor and the surgeries and the chemo and the radiation and all the things that he went through, but we just didn't tell him that it was terminal until December of that year. So as the year progressed he just got worse. Things just changed. You know, the tumor grew back. The chemo and radiation wasn't really working because the tumor grows back. So we spent a lot of time traveling that summer as a family. I was learning the business. He was still there to, you know, kind of help me make the transition. And then the fall of that year, I could tell that things were getting a little worse. He would come in and out of coherence, you know, he would stare off into space some days and then some days be completely clear. So I knew that there was some. Some significant change is happening. And I asked his doctor, you know, at that point, like, what are we looking at? Doctors don't want to tell you any specifics, like, No, never. Always got two months. So, I, and I would always tell the doctor, I'm not asking, I'm not going to hold you to this. I just need to know what to expect. Like, is this the beginning of the end? You know, how does this work? So he had said at that point it was probably just, you know, a couple of months for him just because of the way he was acting and talking and none of the medication was really working. So December of that year, we decided that we needed to tell our kids because his personality was changing also. He'd be very aggressive. And mean some days. And I think that was the tumor talking that, you know, not my husband talking. And then the kids would be upset because their dad was. Not acting like their dad. So in December of that year, I sat him down and we talked about it. I said, we have to tell the kids because my fear was that they were going to harbor some serious guilt if they were in turn angry with their father for what he was doing or how he was acting without knowing the truth and then that would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Right. So I'm trying to balance like what's best for everybody. You know, at this point, so we did end up sitting them down and telling them in December and I had gone to see a grief counselor just to ask them, what do I do? What do I say? How do I say it? I don't know how to do this. And she was very clear that you need to use the real words. You need to say death and dying and use the words because her point, which was a good one, was if you tell your kids that their dad is sick, then they think he's going to get better sickness. You get better from a sickness. But then if he doesn't get better, then maybe anytime they got sick, they might think they're going to die. Crazy how you have to be very specific about, cause kids, you know, conjure, adults conjure stories too, but you know, kids need that specificity. So I practiced what I was going to say, how I was going to say it. We picked the day to sit the kids down. And when we, when we did, it was after dinner one night and we sat them in the living room and I started to say the words. That your dad's tumors, you know, not, not going to go away and he's never going to recover from this. It's never going to get better. And I went to say, and my kids of course are asking, well, what does that mean? What do you mean? He's not going to get better. What does that mean? So all the things that I practice saying, I couldn't, I couldn't say. They didn't come out of my mouth. So my husband finally said it means I'm going to die. He had to say the words that I Literally could not say I opened my mouth. Nothing came out. So he said it. I wanted to spare him that and I couldn't even do that. I did not want him to have to say the words that he said, but that's the way it went down. So the kids obviously were very horrified and confused. And again, what do you tell? Eight and ten year old kids like, yeah, I still can't wrap my head around it this many years later. You know, I'll never forget that day or the sounds of, you know, the whaling coming out of my kids mouth. So from that point on, we just tried to stay as normal as possible, which is You know, no small feat because at this point now that the kids know, they want to know when it's going to happen. Yeah. Well, this was in December and my husband's birthday was in December. Of course, it's Christmas and everything else. And so I would get all the questions, mom, do you think dad's going to die before his birthday? Do you think dad's going to die before Christmas? Do you think he's going to make it to New Year's Eve? I don't know. You know, at that point I didn't know. So this is why I didn't want to tell them much sooner than we did because that would have just been their primary concern and fear and that would have overtaken their lives if they knew any sooner than we had told them because I knew he was on the decline. So that was in December and then January of 2014. He was getting progressively worse, but he fell down the stairs in our house. So one night we had gone to bed. My kids and I had gone to bed. He stayed up about an hour after we went to bed. My older son came into my room and said, I heard a thud. I heard something happen downstairs. I think something's wrong with dad. So we went down to our main floor and I didn't see him and we opened the basement door and he had gone. We thought he had gone down to the basement. I think he fell down the basement stairs, trying to go downstairs, but he was at the base of the basement stairs and in obvious distress. So I had to call 911 and they took him to the hospital. He had an acute subdural hematoma. Which is, I don't know if you know what that is, but they have to, like, take off part of your skull to reduce the swelling in your brain. It's a pretty intense surgery, but under normal circumstances, people don't always recover from acute subdural hematomas. And he was already, you know, on the decline. So that was the beginning of the end. When he fell down the stairs. So for two weeks, he was in the hospital and he was on a ventilator and, you know, feeding tubes and all that. And they he finally came off the ventilator, which was shocking to me that he came off that on his own, but he still had the feeding tubes and he still had, he was still being kept alive by artificial means. And part of his advance directive asked that he not be kept alive by artificial means. So, and we had that prepared long before he was even diagnosed. We had all those documents and estate planning and all that stuff done. So in the hospital I had to make the decision to take him off those. Life support, life giving machines and bring him home with hospice. So when, so about two weeks after he was in the hospital, we brought him home with hospice and he was home for four days and then he passed away in our house. He died in our house, but he was surrounded by his family. He was surrounded by me, his children, his parents. He was where he wanted to be. He was home. It was very peaceful. But that was, you know, the only thing that I could do for him at that point was just there was nothing else that we could do. We just had to bring him home and just explain to the kids that, and again, for four days, how long do you think he's going to last? What's, you know, he, he wasn't eating and my fear in the hospital, he was hooked up to a feeding tube and his parents fear too was if we remove that, we're essentially starving him. Like, how do you wrap your head around, you know, taking those out of a person, you know, but the nurse, very sweet nurse, and she said, you're not starving him. You're starving the tumor. So when you get some of those medical professionals that can help you put that in context, it's priceless. You don't always get that help from some of the doctors and nurses, but that when she said that to me, I was like, okay, I'm doing the right thing. I can take him home. I can take him home with hospice.

CJ: 13:56

Yeah, that's, there's so many parallels to what we did. So my wife was at home with hospice. It was five days for us. And hearing you talk about telling your kids, like, It just brings back. I remember the moment. I actually took a photo of the moment that we told them. So my wife battled for five and a half years. It was a lot longer. But we had them. They were, I don't remember the ages, but they were around the age of your, your children. My youngest was, was younger than, he was maybe like six, but we like had them involved in the whole process of it. So when she was losing her hair, we had them like pull their hair out and we kind of just made it as normal as it possibly could be. But I do remember when we found out that her cancer just in 2020 just spread everywhere. She had 17 or 15 or 17 tumors in her brain, it was in her lungs, bowels, liver, back, I mean everywhere. And it was like clear that she wasn't gonna make it. And it was the same thing, we're like okay well, you know, the kids knew that she had cancer, the kids knew that that she wasn't gonna recover but that it was an ongoing battle. But yeah it was the same thing, we're like okay we gotta tell them, like hey We're going to try to get through the holidays, but it's not going to be long. And yeah, and I remember telling them, and I ended up taking a photo of it. And it's interesting to see how each child reacted. I have three of them. And, and it was really telling with how they dealt with the whole thing. But I am curious because I just had this experience where I asked the kids, maybe... A month ago, maybe sometime this summer, I'm like, hey, do you remember the conversation we had when me and mommy told you that she was going to die, that like she couldn't fight anymore? None of them remembered. And I'm curious, like, if you've ever talked to your children now, like, and it's been a much longer time frame. If they don't, if they have any recollection of that night and what their perception of that, that day was that night. That's a good

KIm: 15:58

question. They have the recollection. They don't remember exactly what was said. And I didn't, I didn't take pictures or anything, but I did write it down because I wanted to remember that way. But I, I had written letters to my kids at the end of every month since they were born. Wow. Oh, I love them. Yeah, I just started that when they were born because I was a stay at home mom and I had worked before I had kids and I was a stay at home mom and I just wanted to kind of document all the things that we did together because we did so much together when they were little that they, that I knew that they would forget, they're not going to know what they did when they were two, three, four, you know, five, six years old. So I would just write a letter to them at the end of every month and then I would put it into a three ring binder. And I ended up eventually putting those into books, but I wanted to write specifically about that night and specifically what was said. So I took notes after the fact so that I could write that letter to them about what happened that month in December of 2013 because I knew our minds or our brains would play tricks on us and protect us. Really, I think it's a, you know, a protective mechanism and but I also wanted them to know that it was a peaceful transition. I wanted them to remember that he was not suffering at the end. And he was surrounded by his family. So they remember, I don't think they remember specifics, but they can go back to the letter and read. Yeah. That's a letter that I wrote for them. That's amazing.

Ashley: 17:28

I don't remember. I don't remember any of the, any conversation or no, I just remember like she was at home for, I mean, God feels like it was probably like the final months, but it was probably really only like. Like final few weeks, but I did write, I actually wrote like a poem for like a poetry contest when I was younger that I ended up winning because obviously they choose the dead mom poem. You can't not, I think. But I did write it, but she like had, we had like a hospital bed, like at home and she was in that for, I feel like quite a while. So I like kind of just sort of knew it was coming. And then the actual day that she died, I. Like I had gone to a concert the night before, and I think I've told this story before, but it was like, if you went to a concert, you went out the night before like a school or on a school night, you like had to go to school. So like I, when my parents, my dad didn't wake me up for school. I was like, yeah, this isn't good. I don't get to stay home because you know, he's letting me sleep in. And then I, I, I wouldn't go in the room. I was like too afraid. And I just remember hearing him like crying, my dad crying, but our whole family was there. And then my aunt came into my bedroom and told me that she had died. And I do remember her using like very plain language and being like, you know, mom is dead. She's gone to heaven, but I don't really remember any conversations or even a conversation that she was sick or had cancer. But I know that like they told, like, I do know that they told us because I remember like her hair falling out and like her back hurting. And being like, yeah, mom's sick. Like, and she was always home with us. If I remember correctly, like we had like a nanny who ended up staying to help much longer than she actually would have, but because she was sick, so and my grandparents were always around. So I kind of always knew like, okay, you know. Something's not right. Yeah. Not that they like purpose, purposely

KIm: 19:28

withheld it, but well, that's part of the deal with kids though, too. They're very perceptive and they know something's not right. So I think if, you know, the more we think we're trying to protect them, the worse that it can be in some cases. And honestly, they just want the truth. And I remember my son saying, You know, why isn't the doctor fixing dad? I said, well, they're doing the best they can. He said, well, you need to find a new doctor because he's not doing a good job. Right? Like, that's just the way a kid thinks about it. You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. Let's go get another one. So, it's hard to explain to them. Well, and that was too early in my, that was like in the summer. I'm like, no, I can't, we can't tell them. But they're perceptive. They know that things, what's going on. So,

CJ: 20:09

you guys go through hospice. As, as hospice finishes out and I mean, I guess I'm, I'm curious how you felt through hospice cause I know like, how that situation was for me going through it, but like, what was the Emotions, like what were you going through where you had your family, you had your kids and then your husband, you're in your home and you're waiting for the inevitable

KIm: 20:36

waiting. Yeah, I was terrified because he had some medications of course, you know, to make them comfortable. Right. And I remember the hospice nurse came in, they said at the hospital bed in our basement as well. And she gave me all these medications and all these instructions and then she leaves. Yes. And I am, I'm like, wait a minute, this is not how they do it in the movies. No, no, no, no, no. They stay. That's like, it's like 20. It's like overnight, you know, she laughed and I, I was actually shocked. I did not know that hospice left you alone with your person. I did not know that. So I was like, I don't, okay. So I called her, I had a lot of questions because we're, I'm supposed to be administering medication, but he can't swallow. So all these, you know, they gave him medication for I think a stool softener or something. I'm like, he's not eating or drinking. Like, why do I have to, and I, and he can't swallow it anyway. Like, what are we even doing? She's like, Oh, I didn't realize that. And then it was like, again, so let's go back over this one more time. Like what his exact situation is. So we reduced that medication by, like, three quarters, you know, of the medication. I said, you know, just let me give him something to keep him comfortable. And they said we could give him, not really water because he wasn't swallowing, but we could put like a ice cube up to his lips, or we could give, you know, a little drop of just like a tiny drop of water on his lips. But it's terrifying, especially in the middle of the night. Because I had a, I had a chart that I wanted to follow. I like to check off lists and I like to, you know, mark down when I've completed something. So when I did give him the medication, what is the, what's the medication that they give him to make him comfortable? I can't think of the name of it. The morphine? Yeah. Morphine. I was going to say Motrin. It's not Motrin. Morphine. So, yeah. So, I wanted to keep that up and so I would just get up if, if I had to in the middle of the night and mark it down and stuff, but it's, it was terrifying, you know, my kids were, my kids were very good with him at home because when he fell down the stairs, he basically paralyzed half, half of his body was paralyzed. So in the hospital, we knew that like the right side of his body was paralyzed. And so when he came home. And was in the hospital bed, I took a picture, my son was sitting next to him, but he was smiling with the side of his face that wasn't paralyzed. So I knew that he was happy to be home, that he was, you know, in the right place. But they would talk to him, they would sit and read stories with him, and my older son and my husband used to like to listen to old radio programs together. So they would sit in bed, my husband would sit with my older son in bed and they would have the earbuds. One would have one earbud, the other would have the other earbud and they would listen to these old radio programs. So he did that with, my older son did that with his dad in the basement, just put the earbuds in and listen to. The radio programs with him. And then my younger son was always, he was only eight, but he was very concerned that dad was getting the medication on time. He kept me on my toes. He, he was like, did you give, did you do this and this and this? I'm like, I got it. I got it. Just like his mom. Exactly. We're good. So then his parents came over and I would I would give them time alone with him. Two, obviously. And the night before he died, I was up in my bedroom sleeping. His mom was down with him. And so then she came to get me in the morning at 5 a. m. or whatever. She said, I think he's, I think he's going. So in my mind, I made it downstairs as he was taking his last breath. Wow. Whether that's true or not, honestly, I can't tell you for sure. That's what my brain said that I made it to him. As he was taking his last breath because I, I knew, I knew he was gone, but I still wanted to call. I still called hospice and said, please send a nurse to verify they have to do that anyway. But you know, I just want to make sure I'm not like we need to know exactly. So so his parents were there that morning too. And so we all just, we all had our time, we all had our time. with him, even though it was for only four days that he was home, but we did what we could. And I, I think we all did really pretty darn good considering.

CJ: 24:45

Yeah. It sounds, it sounds like there was a lot of control in such an uncontrolled, uncontrollable situation. Do you feel like you had your chance to say goodbye to him? I

KIm: 24:56

do. And honestly, because we knew that this was terminal and he was going to die, we, there was really nothing left unsaid between us. From me taking over the business and you know, I was 44 when he died. So he was very clear in our discussions that he didn't want me to be alone. Like he was very clear and you need to date, you need to get remarried if that's something you want to do, but just don't be alone because you're too young to stay alone for the rest of your life. So it's kind of remarkable. Like I. I watched him that last year and just complete awe because I'm honestly not sure I could have been as gracious as he was, you know, knowing what he knew, but he wrote a letter to all of us. He wrote a letter to me. He wrote a letter to his children. He wrote letters to his best friends. And then he actually wrote a letter. So he was diagnosed in February and he wrote a letter in. March or April, not too long after his diagnosis, he'd already had the surgery, so his mind was clear again. And he wrote a letter that we ended up reading at his funeral, but it was basically a goodbye letter. It was a goodbye letter thanking everybody in his life that he wanted to thank for having made an impact on him. Giving him, you know, a good life that, that he wanted. So it was, I didn't, he told me he wrote the letter. I just didn't, he said, I don't want you to look at it yet though. I'm a writer. I, and so I'm like, he's like, don't look at, don't look at the letter. Don't make any comments on it or, you know, trying to edit it. No, no, no. So I didn't, I didn't look it up. And then in the fall, I thought, I better go find that letter before it gets to the point where I don't know where it is. So I did pull it up and I was just, I was astounded at his clarity, all the people that he was thanking and just basically saying, I've had a really good life and I just want you to know that I've had such a good life and I appreciate all of you being in it. It was just, it's, it's. It's hard to explain how you can do that. I just don't know how you can do that. So again, I don't, I'm not sure I would have been as gracious as he was, but we had lots of conversations. So there was really nothing left unsaid. Yeah, we got to say everything that we needed to say to each other.

CJ: 27:13

That's amazing. My wife was the same. She would constantly talk to me and the kids about me dating, finding somebody. There is even one night like as her disease was progressing where she was like, do you want me to help you find somebody? So you have them before I go, right? And it was the same thing. I just like watched her and I'm like, how could you like possibly just be so gracious? How could you just be so thoughtful and have such clarity and selflessness? And it still blows me away to this day. And we, we would, we would say everything we talked about everything. But in hospice, because I was so focused on the family and her, and making sure that everybody else is okay and taken care of, and then, obviously all the emotions that I was dealing with, I just, I still regret that I feel like I didn't have a chance to just Actually sit down and say my final goodbye to her and it's it tortures me a little bit.

KIm: 28:17

I'm not sure that even if you did, it would still be okay in your brain, right? Yeah, right. Because we think we, you know, we think we should have done all the shoulds. Even if you did everything exactly the right way, you'd still have that. Thought in your head just because we like to torture ourselves. all

CJ: 28:34

the time. All the time. Yeah. And there's definitely, like, I like look back at every moment where I was like, ah, I should have been better in that moment. I mean, you know, that's definitely natural. Well, I'm

KIm: 28:45

gonna tell you right now, like when he was, when he was sick, I was learning the business, which I'm not a chemist. I don't know anything about chemistry. I don't want to know about chemistry. I don't, I'm not a math person and we have to change, you know, gallons to pounds and it's like, I'm not even sure what that means. Oh my god. So, but I was just again, you don't tell a dying man, no, so I'm learning how to run the business. But I was a technical writer and, you know, before I stayed home with the kids and I, I trained people on software programs or whatever. So a friend of mine was working for a company who needed some help editing some online training modules that they were doing. So as my husband is dying. And as I am learning how to run his chemical sales business, I decided it's a good idea to edit some of these, you know, journals also, because this is my point about, you know, when we think back of things we would have done differently. I could not sit with death every single day. Day I couldn't so I needed a break. I needed a mental break. I mean, I'm raising the kids. I'm still involved in their school I'm running the business. I'm taking care of him, you know helping his parents and all the things I'm like, I need a meant believe it or not work extra work For me is sometimes a mental break. It's not not doing anything. It's doing more. And that just to get me out of my head. So I did that for probably two months, maybe two months, two or three months of just, I need, you know, three to four hours to just go to my computer. And so I often wonder if that was wrong. Like I should have spent more time with him. Well, I spent every day with him literally every day. Of that last year with him because he couldn't work and he couldn't do anything else. So was it wrong? Was it right? I mean, we, we can torture ourselves till the end of time. Yes, we can. But that's what I needed to do in order to get through my reality. Yeah.

CJ: 30:38

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah, I definitely have those same thing, those same thoughts. And she died during COVID. So it's like, we've literally, there was no leaving. We just quarantined for like an entire year until she died. Then, so the, like I wanted to, to comment, you were talking about how the nurse just left and you're like, what the fuck do I do? So we had a similar situation where the, the nurse came over, got it all situated, Ashley's dad who, who was there actually to help him and my sister were taking care of all the, the medication cause I just couldn't do it. I couldn't bring myself to administer the medicine. No, I understand that. So. In the middle of the night, we noticed that she started getting agitated like she was in pain, so I called the, the hospice nurse, the, the, the office, and I was like, hey, you know, this was what was prescribed for morphine, is it okay to do more, she seems like she's in pain, I'm like, really scared, I don't know what to do, and their response And I'm not lying, was call us when she expires.

KIm: 31:45

Holy moly!

CJ: 31:48

And I was like, wait, what? Wait, what? I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like, how do I make her okay? Is it okay to give her more? And they're just like, just call us when she expires. So I got off the phone and told everybody. Everybody was obviously livid. So my dad called back like an hour later, half an hour later. Same thing. It's crazy. Wow. Like, it's just insane.

KIm: 32:08

It is insane. It's like I said, it's not like the movies. It's not like you think it is. No, it's not.

Ashley: 32:12

No. You would think that those, like, of all healthcare professionals, that those people have the best bedside manner. Right? I know that would be like if they don't have bedside manner, where the heck is the bar for like any

KIm: 32:27

sort of bedside manner? Well, it's true. And you know, to your point about administering the medication, the hospice nurse told me, well, if he's agitated, just give him more. Well, how much is more like I'm going to kill him if I give him three times the amount, like you don't know, we'll just give him a little bit more. What does that even mean? A little bit more like you have to be like, tell me what to do.

CJ: 32:46

Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. It is absolutely wild. So I guess all that happens and then he passes away and you kind of go through that. What is this first? So you said 2014. Yeah, so you're some years out. What is the first few years look like for you? And what is your reaction to? Becoming widow, widowed.

KIm: 33:10

Shack is the reaction. I knew it was coming, but even though people say, well, you know, at least you had time to prepare, nobody can prepare for death. Nope. Yeah, no, it doesn't matter how much time you have. So it was, it was shacking and I was still running the business. And so in my mind, I thought, well, I'm just going to run the business until I can find something else to do because now he's gone, I don't have to worry about you know, him. Thinking anything about it. But I was also very felt very guilty about even thinking that because then I started this crazy train in my brain of if I sell the business or I get rid of it, then I'm. You know, he's dying all over again, so I'm kind of keeping him alive a little bit by running the business still and, you know, it was a small business and so his customers had stories about him and, and I learned, you know, things about him through them and they learned things about him through me. So I really struggled in the beginning with, I didn't want to do this job, but it was, You know, I had customers and they were paying the bills and I was flexible and be able to, you know, be home with my kids. So that was the rationale of keeping it. I always had the idea in the back of my mind that I would just go get a writing job or, you know, software training or something somewhere. I never did. But anyway, so the first two years I basically took my kids all over God's green earth. We traveled a lot. In those first two years. So, we had originally gone to Alaska because that was on my husband's bucket list. And I told him, I said, I'm going to take the boys to Alaska and we are going to take some of your ashes. So, we took his ashes, we put his ashes in several different places, our favorite places and his favorite places. So, we said, we're going to take some ashes to Alaska. So, I couldn't plan an Alaskan trip like that on my own. So, I ended up going with a tour group, like a family, a family. Small tour group and it was all planned for us, but I told the boys let's just take the ashes I don't know where they're gonna go. I don't know where we're gonna put them, but we'll know when we see it So this was a biking and hiking kind of a tour and so we were hiking through this And we come up to this beautiful body of water. It's called Ptarmigan Lake in the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska. And the boys and I look at each other and we're like, this is it. This is where we have to do this. So nobody knew what we were doing. We kind of went off on the side and just thought a little thing and put his ashes there. So that was a very cathartic and good experience. trip for us. We were, we had a, we had a mission. We also got to have a little bit of fun and not be at home and everything was, you know, a little bit lighter for us in Alaska. It was actually an amazing trip. So then we came home, but we had like a family wedding in San Francisco that year. And we visited my sister in South Carolina and we went to Washington DC. The year after that, we went to Yellowstone. I was just like, boom, boom, boom with my kids. Let's just go. And plus all the places around Michigan that we wanted to go. Well, I think I was literally trying to run away from grief. If I'm being honest. Right? I'm literally dragging my kids all around, you know, the country. But I just didn't want to be home. I didn't want to be home. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to have to deal with it. Grief eventually catches up with you, so you cannot outrun it. I thought I could. Nobody has since the dawn of time, but I thought I could. Like, I was convinced that I was gonna be the one to outrun it, right? Like, I can do this. I can do this. But I got exhausted with all the trips. Like physically and mentally exhausted. So I decided, okay, I have to really kind of face what's going on here. So we stayed home, not a ton, but you know, more, we stayed home a little bit more after that and just kind of tried to get into our routine. I continued running the business. I was home with the kids, flexible, got to be at the bus stop, got to go to games after, you know, football games and whatever wrestling matches. And I ran the business for eight years, so. It just kept going and going and going and going. And then I decided that I think I had guilted myself long enough to run the business that it was time that I got to do what I wanted to do. So in 2021, I sold it, but it took a lot for me to get there. It took a lot for me to get to that point. And I just didn't want to have to deal with it because then it would just, like I said, be like him dying all over again. He built a legacy and I just didn't want to, I didn't want to be the one to end that. But one of our customers that we had ended up buying the business from me. So I knew it went to good hands. And they were very good to me when I took over running the business. And so they knew how much I struggled with it. So we just came to an agreement and he's, you know, they said, we'll take it over and we'll keep, you know, marks. Name alive and so it was that's amazing.

CJ: 38:01

What are some of the things that you did to? Get yourself to a position where you can sell it emotionally. Well,

KIm: 38:11

just a lot of self talk I mean, you know, I told myself a lot of stories in my brain that this was bad And that, you know, he'd be disappointed, which is not true because he literally told me before he died. If you need to change course, change course. You know, like my kids took piano lessons is another example. And my husband started them with piano. I did not take my children to piano lessons. I did not want to take them to piano lessons. So when they started, he started them when they were four years old and he said, I'm going to do this. I said, great. I don't want to be part of it. Right. So when he got sick, I had to start taking the kids to piano lessons, which I hated. Okay. Hey, Ted hated making them practice, hated all of it. So I'm going to check the piano out the window, but I can't do that because my husband bought the piano for the children that he started in piano lessons. So he did say to me at that, you know, before he died also with piano, if it gets to be too much, my older son was very He, he was, he just liked to fight us and everything. Right. So defiant, I guess, is the word. And so he's like, I know this is going to be an issue. So when it is just let him quit, you know, let him quit. But even when we're in the middle of that defiance, I'm like, I can't let him quit because his dad started these panelists with him. You just have all these. conversations in your head about any number of topics that your husband or wife or, you know, parents, whatever do. So I think my older son was 13 and he just was not conforming, not practicing. I'm spending money on lessons. He's not even doing anything with, and I'm getting on his case. And finally he said to me, he's like, how much longer do I have to take piano lessons from my dead dad? Wow.

CJ: 39:49

Holy shit.

KIm: 39:50

I said, well, officially we're done today. So, yeah, like it never, like you have just clearly shown me that you do not have to take piano lessons for your dad, yeah, anymore. So like that next day I call the piano teacher, I said, he's done. So my younger son went till about 16 and then but they had taken lessons long enough, I guess that they can, they'll always be able to pick it back up again. But you tell the, you tell yourself these stories, these awful stories. And they're your own stories. There's nobody else telling you this, right? Yeah, you're saying it to yourself. So it took me eight years. I mean, I really probably should have sold the company at year like two or three, to be honest, but I finally decided. So I had met someone two years after Mark died, I met someone and my neighbor had asked me if I was willing to meet someone that she knew and You know, what's the right amount of time is two years long enough, whatever. Like you have all these, you know, rules, societal rules. And I thought two years might've been okay. It might be long enough. I wasn't sure. But she just said this. He's a really nice guy. He worked with her husband and you know, do you want to meet him? So my, my thought in my head was, I just really want to get over the hump of that first date after death. Once I get over that hump, I'm good to go. So I was prepared to meet this person, have coffee. I had an exit strategy in place. I'm a grieving widow. This isn't going to work out. Thanks anyway. But I get over that hump of the first date after the death, right? So I said, okay. And we met and had coffee and he was super sweet and just ask questions that a lot of people don't ask. They're afraid to ask, but he was also genuinely interested in hearing the answer. So I was like, who is this unicorn that I have meeting here on this, at this coffee date, right? This is very strange. So we had met two years after. My husband died. I'm going to jump ahead. We got married six years after that. So this first, this first date after the death where I had the exit strategy and I was going to bolt we ended up getting married. I never bolted. That's amazing. So, yeah. So as we were dating and my kids were getting older and I was very clear with my now husband that we weren't going to get married. When the kids were in high school or when they were younger, I wasn't going to do that. And he wasn't going to move in and none of that. Like I wanted my children's home to be their home for them. Yeah. No strange people. Not that he was strange, but no other people in the house while they were, you know, growing up. So anyway once the kids got older and we started talking about getting married, I was like, well, it probably should consider. Selling the business because he was going to be close to retirement and then I could do what I wanted to do. So they kind of all happened around the same time, you know, we ended up getting married. And then we built a house and we moved, so I was not, you know, I didn't think that it was fair to ask him to move into the house that I lived in with my deceased husband, right? Like that's somebody else's house. So we decided that we would get married, build our own house, and then, you know. Retire and do whatever we wanted to do. So that kind of coincided the timing wise with the business. Although I was really thinking after we talked about getting married and building this house, I'm thinking that I was still gonna run the business, but I think the universe had different plans because I was for so many years saying I can't do it. I can't do it. That finally I was like, well, what if I did? Like, what if I did sell it? So once you start asking yourself those different questions, then all the other possibilities come up. Then I started talking to my customer about buying it. Then he gave me an offer. Then, you know, so until I opened up that door, those answers never came to me. As soon as I thought, well, what if I did, then all these opportunities kind of presented themselves, but it all happened around the same time. So I think it was yeah, I think it was. Meant to be that way. It got, it got my kids through school, the job, you know, got me through getting my kids through their, their high school. And like I said, it paid the bills and whatever else. And but when I met, when I met my now husband he. I, like I said, was just very interested in hearing all about the details. Not everybody wants to know the details. They get very skirmish, you know, they don't really want to know, but he did and he listened to a lot of things. And so we found out that we had quite a bit in common. But the weirdest thing was when I met my husband, Mark, the one that died, he, he had a dog and it was a Daxon. So he was a single man with a Daxon. Okay. So then when. His first dog died. We got married and then we got a Dachshund. So we had Lucy long haired Dachshund. So the, Lucy died the same year that Mark died. So I had to put the dog down the same year that my husband died. So when I met my husband now, he was at my house one day and there was a picture of Lucy on our piano and he said, is that a Dachshund? And I said, yeah, that's Lucy. You know, she died the same year Mark did. He said, well, I have a Dachshund. And I was like, what? What do you mean you have a Dachshund? Like, what are the odds I meet another single man with a Dachshund? I mean, it was just started popping up between us. And it was just like, that's coincidental. Well, my husband liked, you know vintage signs and old jukeboxes and, you know, gas pumps and whatever. And I'm not, this is like. Totally. Not even, I'm not even joking. We were going to, we finished our basement and he really wanted to put a gas pump down there, but we never got around to doing that. Okay. So I go to Tom's house. That's my husband now. And we go down in his basement. I look around, he's got these vintage signs and he has a jukebox and he has a gas pump in his basement. Oh my God. No way. I mean, this is like, I wrote a story about this. You guys, it's published in a chicken soup for the soul edition called miracle. Oh my God. Literally wrote about this because I was like the coincidences. That's, I don't think they were incidental. That's like, I think there was some divine intervention going on here. Yeah. Because I think so too. Yeah. It was just, and it, it's like how do you tell someone that you've kind of just met like weird coincidences are happening. Yeah, exactly. Without scaring them or without them thinking. Yeah. Right. Like, oh yeah, my husband wanted to put a gas pump in his basement. We never got around to it. But look, here's a gas pump. Right. Weird. Very strange. So all these things were coming up and I thought, I don't know. I think that this is something. Yeah, something more at play here. So at one point I had a dream and you know, maybe you can understand this too, because I have dreams a lot even now that Mark is still alive and I'm very confused in my dream because I'm wondering. Why am I married? Why am I, or why was I dating someone or why am I married when he's alive? Like, I don't understand this. And this one dream I had, he was alive and I was dating Tom. We hadn't gotten married yet, but Mark was on one side of the street and Tom was on the other. And it was like there was a magnet pulling me towards Tom. And so I'm thinking, I can't go towards this other man when. Mark, my husband is still alive, right? So I'm in the middle of the road and I'm looking at Mark and I'm looking at Tom and in my dream, Mark says to me, it's okay, you can go.

Ashley: 47:12

Oh my god, that's beautiful.

KIm: 47:14

So I woke up that morning and I was like, I feel very peaceful. I feel very peaceful. I was confused in my dream and I was like, this is again, this, these are not random coincidences. You know, it's like, that's what I needed to know that he, and I knew he was okay. Like I said, we had discussions. Before he died. But I was telling myself the stories I was making the guilt. You know, more than it probably needed to be, but he was very, very hard. But Tom's been very good about all of that, you know, talking about him and always saying his name. And the one thing I promised Mark was I would never stop saying his name and I've kept that promise. So Tom's very good about, you know, talking about him and including him. Mark's parents, Mark was an only child. So, and I'm still very close to his parents. So my in laws are like my parents, you know. They have welcomed Tom with open arms. He's invited to all the family gatherings even before we got married. They, you know, my mother in law's always out shopping for his birthday presents and, you know, all this kind of stuff. Like they have welcomed him with them too. So he's like, he just kind of. Slid right in there. It's been very it's been very nice. Yeah. So

CJ: 48:32

you mentioned the the dreams you've had a lot of dreams It sounds like you've been dreaming about Mark, is there any? Rituals or things you do to like reconnect with him or to stay connected and Rituals could be an overloaded term, but basically just anything that you do that allows you to kind of reconnect with

KIm: 48:53

him. I talk about him a lot. I talk to him a lot. So, I'm the crazy girl walking down the path with my, you know, my earbuds in but talking as if I'm talking to someone. I have this vision in my mind when I want to talk to Mark and it's us on a beach. So, I just imagine I'm on a beach and I'm walking down and he's off on a, you know, rock. He's sitting on a jetty. And I'm walking towards him. So whenever I need to speak to him about anything, I have that vision in my brain. And I just walk to him on this beach and he's sitting on the jetty and we, we talk and I say what I need to say or ask what I need to ask. But yeah, I talk to him all the time. I mean, I, you know, will say to him, you've got some really great kids, you know, like my son will come over and. Say something amazing or you know, he's my older son is a carbon copy looking of his dad He's like a little mini me. So I'll just say you know what? You've got some really good kids or I hear a song on the radio when I'm driving and I always say like oh Hi, I have all kinds of signs all kinds of signs you guys that I get all the time So I always say thank you angels whenever I see my signs And yeah, so I think that sometimes he's riding in the car with me and I'll look over on the passenger side and I'll, I mean, people might think I'm crazy, but I'm like, Hey, glad you're here. Glad you're here. Yeah.

CJ: 50:14

Yeah. Yeah. I talked to Ariana every day, mostly every day, constantly checking in, asking for advice. I definitely imagine like her still being in the car. The science thing is something I'm. It's just trying to remain open to there's been some very clear things that are hard to deny. But my mind immediately wants to just like there's an explanation for that. That's just a coincidence, but I'm trying to be open to it and regardless if it's true or not. If it. Allows me to feel something that's genuine and positive. Like, then I'm like, why would I, why would I not allow that in my life? Like, how fucking stupid is that? But well, it's

KIm: 50:56

a great point though. But people will be the, for people will be the first to tell you, we are just imagining that. So what if I am right? Yeah. Who is it hurting? But it makes you feel better. It makes me feel better. I absolutely think that. you know, cardinal that came to my window sill as my husband. I think that butterfly is my, it doesn't matter what it is. Yeah.

Ashley: 51:16

Yeah. I say that all the time. I was literally just like last, last weekend there was a cardinal in my, we went to go visit my boyfriend's family and there was a cardinal that flew in like right as we arrived. And I was like, I think that was probably your mom or your dad. I, and I'm like, yeah, it's your point. Like who cares? Who cares?

KIm: 51:34

You know, we start asking

Ashley: 51:35

yourself the questions like, what is it? What if it, what if it isn't a coincidence? Then

KIm: 51:39

it is a sign from, you know, if you, but the thing is, once you do open that, open your mind, then your brain likes to show you evidence. And so you start seeing more things, right? So then you start making those connections. We saw hearts a lot. My younger son actually did. He was eight when. My husband died and so, and turned nine just shortly thereafter, but we would see heart shapes all the time. And he's the one that kind of brought that to my attention, like, Oh, well, maybe this is a sign from Dan. I'm like, Oh, maybe it is. Well then once I opened that up in my brain, I saw hearts everywhere, but they also became Times when it was not even remotely possible that that heart could have been at the place that it was in and the shape that it was in or whatever, you know, we went skiing one night up at the ski hill and we were at the ski hill the night before the night that Mark fell down the stairs. We were at the ski hill cause our kids had ski lessons and again, taking the kids to the ski lessons was painful. It's like, it was like, you know, like the piano lessons painful. And so I had gotten, I took out the hand warmers and the toe warmers. And took the, took him out of the packages and threw the package on my counter and take him to the ski hill, come back and go to bed. Well, the morning I woke up, the packages were in a heart shape on my counter. Now, it's not as if I set them down in a heart shape, I threw him on the counter, whatever they were in this. I've got pictures of all these things too, by the way, I'm taking pictures of all these, but it was in a heart shape. I'm like, it's just not. One, one night we were driving home on, It was, it was in February, so, so Mark died on February 2nd. And so my kids and I, every February 2nd, we go out and have cheeseburgers in honor of their dad. Okay. So we went and had cheeseburgers at whatever local burger joint and my younger son didn't finish his. They put it in a to go container. And it was the kind with the plastic top. Well, it's February in Michigan, freezing cold. So we, so the thing just freezes over like the plastic top is just like icicles. But as we're driving home in the car, we see a heart shape on the top of his to go container. No way. I mean, I've got pictures, you guys. Like, I'm seriously, like, these are all... That's amazing. It is! So you're just like, okay. That's amazing. I see you. You know, just whenever... Yeah, whenever stuff like that happens, I was, I'll tell you one more quick story because this was kind of amazing too. I was walking and it was winter time and I had these gloves on, they were red gloves and I put them in my pocket and one of them fell out because I wasn't wearing them the day and one of them fell out. And so it was really windy that day too. The next day I go on the walk, I can't find the glove. I figured the wind has taken that glove miles from that point because it was so windy and whatever. So I'm walking on this path and I see a car that had been in an accident. So it looked like it had run into a tree, but it was crunched. And of course, when you see things like that, your immediate thought or mind goes to the people that I know who have died, which is my husband, right? So I see this car crash into this tree and I just start thinking about Mark and I just start crying because it's so sad. Like whoever this kid, I don't think whoever made it out of that car, made it. So whoever's family belongs to that car are having a bad day that day, right? So I'm thinking about Mark and I'm crying and all these things are coming up to, you know, to me. And I was just, I got through it, but I did a loop on my walk. So I'm walking towards the car. I see this happening, talking to Mark, whatever. And I'm coming back around. And as I come back, I see my glove. On the cement and it's just like almost like a wave, you know, it's just like up like this on the cement. Now, it wasn't there when I walked past it to go on my route, but I'm talking to my husband and I'm crying and I'm missing him or whatever and I come back and that glove is right in the middle of the sidewalk that I just walked past. Yeah. So I am open to all of the things. Yeah. Anytime. It's remotely. Okay, fine. That's him. Hi. Thank you. Angels. Thank you.

CJ: 55:37

Angels. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely am Allowing myself to see a little bit more and just accept it. Yeah I don't want to keep you over time, but we do have one more question What? What advice would you give to somebody who was in your shoes and what advice would you give to those people caring for somebody who were in your shoes? Good

KIm: 56:03

question. The advice I would give to the people in my shoes is don't try to outrun your grief because it doesn't work. So we don't like to feel the pain. It is excruciating. It is horrendous, but honestly, you guys, I did not really start. any sort of healing process until I allowed all of those feelings to come through. So I really did not want to feel the bad feelings. I tried really hard not to do that. And it takes a toll on you physically, mentally, you know, all of it. So I think the advice is just, you know, allow yourself to feel it. You don't know how to You know, I always say I didn't know how to be a widow until I was one. You don't know how to be a widower until you are one. You don't know how to deal with your parents dying until they die or siblings. So you don't know how to do this, but just allow yourself the time to learn how. And grief needs an outlet. It needs to be heard. And if you ignore it, then it's just gonna get louder and louder. Oh yeah, yeah. So that's my advice to people in my shoes is just let the grief be what it is and feel all the feelings. And to those that are supporting, one thing I like to say is try not to minimize Their feelings. So a lot of times people would say, well, at least you had a year with him, at least you. And I was like, if anybody else says, at least I am not responsible for my actions. Because that is literally completely unhelpful. So I don't like any, any sentences to start with at least, and it's just don't minimize, you know, I mean, I would have people compare my husband's death to their child's you know, deadbeat dad. Well, at least you're not dealing with a deadbeat dad. Okay. So, so mine's not coming home. I know the deadbeat is a deadbeat, but there's always a possibility of potential reconciliation Yeah. Or he could change. Mine literally is not coming. So, you know, those comparisons are just the, at least. So I think just, you know, for those that are supporting widows is just don't minimize their experience. Please. Oh yeah. It's a lot. Say it again. Say

Ashley: 58:11

it again. Yeah.

CJ: 58:12

Seriously. That, that's like fucking spot on. Yeah. It's amazing. Just

Ashley: 58:17

talking about kind of outrunning grief and you know, just not, you know, not stopping my my boyfriend's dad actually died when he was seven. So we both lost a parent before we. And his mom actually always tells me like, you know, the one piece of advice she had got was like, You know, just keep them busy, do all the things, you know, and I mean, it's still fucking evident today because the man does not stop. We're always doing something. And sometimes I have to be like this Friday we are doing nothing. Yeah, exactly. But how do you, did your boys like have a similar feeling? Like, or, you know, did they ever kind of say like, mom, why do we travel so much? Or did they ever kind of vocalize that or feel that

KIm: 58:58

way? No, they didn't really say anything. I do think that they were tired too. I mean, I could see, you know, that I was taking as tall on all of us. They didn't know what to think. Honestly, they just were just gobsmacked. At least didn't know what to think or what to do. And everything changed. You know, like I said, I was a stay at home mom before my husband got sick. And so I was at all the school events and I was, you know, I did the yearbook for the elementary school and took the picture. I mean, I did everything. Volunteer of the year, you know, PTA, blah, blah, blah. Then, he got sick. I took over running his business. And then, I'm not home all the time. And then, they're left to fend for themselves sometimes. And we're eating, you know, macaroni and cheese dinners where I used to make, you know, dinner. So, they didn't know what to think, honestly. And they just kind of were along for the ride in the beginning. jUst didn't know what to do.

Ashley: 59:44

And I I know I, I saw your post on LinkedIn. I think you're still in graduated high school or college.

KIm: 59:49

Yeah. So how,

Ashley: 59:50

how are they high school? How are they doing today? And like, are they. I mean, I'm sure he's going off to

KIm: 59:55

college soon, or... Nope, my kids are not college bound, neither one. I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old, and they're not, they're not... Love that. Nope, they didn't like school. They don't want to do any more of it, so... Their dad would have, which is kind of coincidental or interesting, he would have been ADDAMANT. That they really go to college. And I was like, Nope, you don't have to do that because why? Why go spend money on something or a degree that you're not gonna use or don't want to do? So you get to go out into the world. They're, they're living together. They're out, they're out of my house, so they're, they're, they're adulting and that's fine by me. You know, you can make your choices now. I got you to adulthood. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: 1:00:35

And you did a good job. A great

KIm: 1:00:36

job. You're on your own. I'll help you when I can or whatever, you know, you know, you're on your own. And you know, they, they've grown up with a school of hard knocks, right? Like the worst possible thing that can happen to them happen to them so they can handle. Yeah. Right. Like they can handle things. So, yeah.

CJ: 1:00:52

We appreciate you so much coming on. It was, you know, amazing to hear your story. I feel like there was a lot more that we could have gotten into but we're really grateful for you to come on and to share. So thank you so much. Thank

KIm: 1:01:04

you for having me. I enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much.

Ashley: 1:01:16

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Day After. You can find this podcast and more at our website at www. thedayafter. com. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast.