Towards neuro-inclusivity

In this instalment, Dr Kerr Castle (Quality Enhancement & Standards Specialist, QAA) sits down with Liss Chard-Hall (Specialist Study Skills Tutor) and Dr Graeme Pedlingham (Deputy Pro Vice Chancellor – Student Experience, University of Sussex) to chat about neuro-inclusivity. 

Specifically, they chat about what the hidden curriculum can look like for neurotypical and neurodivergent students, the kinds of support available to neurodivergent students currently, and how artificial intelligence might be used to enhance learning journeys and bridge barriers.

As mentioned in the episode, you might also like to explore our work around supporting successful student transitions, which offers positive approaches and practical solutions to help support transitions to and through higher education. 

Transcript

Dr Kerr Castle Host

00:04

Welcome to the QA membership podcast. My name is Dr Kerr Castle and I'll be your host for this latest episode, in which we'll be talking about neuro-inclusivity. Specifically, we are going to be exploring what the hidden curriculum looks like for neurotypical and neurodivergent students, the kinds of support available to neurodivergent students currently, and how artificial intelligence might be used to enhance learning journeys and help to bridge barriers. But before we get started, I'd like to hand over to our guest contributors and invite them to introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about their perspectives on this conversation. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

00:41

Okay, so I'm Liss Hi. I'm not used to actually recording things that are not live and not with an audience there, so this is a little bit strange. I guess I'd usually say hi everyone. And my work specifically focuses on higher education. So I do a little bit of tutoring, a little bit of public speaking consultancy for universities and organizations who are stakeholders in the higher education sector, and my interest in this topic kind of got piqued throughout the whole conversation about AI and it being a little bit negative, which is understandable. There's a lot of scariness, the robots are rising up but I just kind of wanted to put my perspective in there as someone who's really benefited from using responsible AI, I'd like to say, throughout my own studies and my own work as an ADHD autistic student and educator. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

01:51

Brilliant. Thank you, Liss. I do love that within two minutes we've got the robots are rising up, which I didn't expect would happen, Graham. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

01:59

Thanks, thanks, Kerr. So I'm Graham Cllingham. I'm a professor of English and Deputy Pro Vice Chancellor for Student Experience at the University of Sussex, and I think my interest in this is from multiple angles. So I'm particularly interested in supporting student transitions into university through university, out of university, university through university out of university. I lead our foundation year program here at Sussex, so we think very, very much about how we can support students to make progress and achieve success, whatever that looks like. So that's the kind of broader context. That's the kind of broader context. But I think, with this in particular, I'm really interested in how AI can help us to break down some of those barriers that many students face. Actually, neurodivergent students face a wide range of barriers, depending upon how they identify themselves, but, um, uh, for all students, I think ai has the potential to to help them to overcome challenges that they may face, which we haven't had that potential before. So it's quite an exciting space to be thinking about brilliant. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

03:20

Thank you, Graham, and, yeah, thank you to to both you for for joining us. I think what you're saying there, Graham, I see kind of perfectly frames that first question I've got in mind. You know, when you're saying about those transitions to and through higher education and out of higher education, you know from your perspective then, what are the kinds of barriers that students typically encounter, and you know as time goes on. I'd be interested to think about how AI might factor into that. But do you want to maybe start us off with some thoughts around that question? 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

03:51

Sure, yeah, and I think we could be here a long time. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

03:56

An exhaustive list. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

03:57

Exactly. 

03:58

There's a lot, but I think one of the things we're thinking about here, of course, is the hidden curriculum, how we're defining that, and again, I think that looks different for different people. 

04:20

Life, if we think about the university context particularly, which may be unknown to people, mean they may not be expecting, they may not be familiar with, um, when they join university, which other people may be more familiar with because of their background or because of particular characteristics, characteristics about, so we can think about that from socioeconomic perspectives. That's probably the most common way I think it's used. But actually when people join university and they have a network of support that's familiar with higher education, that they have a particular advantage in, that familiarity will still need to be developed, but actually they have sources of support that will be able to do that in their wider network, whereas other other students joining university may not, and actually the context of university, the curriculum and the is is is unfamiliar in ways that are um less easy to overcome. I would say, uh, so in in those contexts, I think it's beholden on universities to help to make the curriculum not hidden for all students and that's that's really, I think, what we're trying to do, to do here actually. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

05:51

I think that that perfectly frames that, and I guess the other, the other aspect to that as well, is probably around a student's capacity to engage. So sometimes it might not be about a kind of lack of information, necessarily, or a lack of awareness as to, you know, those processes that you refer to, but maybe more the impact of employment or other kind of factors that mean that they're just not able to engage in the way that they would perhaps um like to. But, but no, I think that's really helpful, Graham, and then let's you know, from your side we then start to think a little bit more about neurodivergent students and what the hidden curriculum perhaps looks like for for them. You know, do you have any thoughts around perhaps the commonalities but also the differences there, what the some of those distinctions are? 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

06:27

absolutely so. I think there is a lot of commonalities in terms of all students have certain expectations of them, even if some universities like to pretend they're not there, they kind of are, and that can make things really difficult. I was the first in my family to go to university out of every generation, so the way that I was kind of convinced to go by my parents ended up being completely different from what it actually was. So I have got that side of the experience as well. But from a neurodivergent perspective, I would say that I would kind of categorize the hidden curriculum in sort of three main categories, those being executive dysfunction, social communication and sensory experiences. Those are the three broad categories that I would say would probably mainly apply to neurodivergent students. 

07:24

Executive dysfunction is kind of just a broad term for people who don't know, which describes the functions our brain needs to get things done. So, for example, an example of executive dysfunction at university might be that a student with ADHD like myself would not be able to start an assignment until it felt absolutely urgent. I actually completed my undergraduate dissertation the night before the deadline. I wouldn't recommend doing that, but that's what happened, and there's a whole range of kind of research into understanding executive dysfunction, but it's still not widely talked about and I think the danger with the hidden curriculum is for neurodivergent students in particular, is that it's often framed in a way that if you're not doing things responsibly for example starting your assignment really early and making sure you're doing enough reading and stuff you're kind of framed as lazy or you're framed as not trying hard enough or not caring enough, and that's where ableism can come into it and that can be really difficult and lead to shame and lead to mental health issues and that sort of thing. We've then got social communication issues which can link into expectations, but on a much deeper level. For example, I in seminars would just say anything that popped into my head. That's how I actually initially got referred for an ADHD diagnosis. Back in the day my lecturers all had a meeting about me and talked about how I was overly passionate and that got referred to the disability advisors. 

09:13

But that can be an issue kind of not knowing when to talk, not knowing how much input you can give in a seminar, that sort of thing. It can also be an issue in group projects. That's another big one where you're not really certain what the expectations are. Maybe instructions aren't being clearly given, maybe we take things really literally. So, for example, if I was given a piece of reading to do before a lecture, I would just literally sit and read it. I wouldn't know what to do with that information, but I'd done the pre-reading, I'd taken that task quite literally as an autistic student. 

09:51

And the third one being sensory experiences. This can be quite specific, but this can be things like lights in a lecture hall. I don't know who ganged up on all the autistic students when they decided that every lecture hall had to have those horrible light bulbs, but it was awful. During my PGCE we had a really noisy projector in the classroom which used to drive me bonkers. The tutor of that module would always turn the projector off for me when it wasn't being used, which was really nice. And then, more specifically, depending on your course, there might be issues around sensory sensitivities in terms of the actual noise of the course. For example, I was a music student back in the day, um, and I would often have to leave rehearsals due to them being really loud. So I feel like I've gone on for ages. But they're sort of three broad categories that I would say no, there's a genuinely list. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

10:48

That's really because I think it does. It kind of frames your experience really nicely, but also, you know, as you're saying that the experiences of others. I think that's really valuable. You've got me thinking about body doubling, because I know some friends with ADHD who kind of find that, like you're saying, you know, for actually in terms of getting tasks done or being able to to kind of make progress with things, they need a presence there and that just helps them work in a different way. So there's so many small things but that cumulatively, you know, can have a massive impact on on someone's experience or their capacity to to engage. This it's really helpful. Um, Graham, I don't know from from your side, if there's anything you want to come in at this point and add. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

11:28

Yeah, I thought it was really helpful and really interesting as well, and it got me thinking about how that expectation on the student to adapt or to know without any real reason for knowing things feeds really closely into deficit model structures within universities and actually, um, putting the onus on on the student to improve, to be better, you know, is is just, is is really harmful actually, and I think, um, it's it's both part of this conversation, but I thought I think a bigger conversation as well, of how we, how we can move towards more strengths-based cultures within universities and say well, actually neurodivergence has its strengths. Uh, you know, it's obviously a hugely wide category, it's a hugely wide range of experiences that people have. But to focus on the negative all the time is, to be honest, it doesn't help make progress for anyone. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

12:37

Yeah, and even the idea that when we're focusing on the negatives, that those things are negative at all, like what's actually wrong with me stimming, which is things like hand flapping and rocking back and forth, which I've been doing this whole time. What's wrong with me doing that, versus a neurotypical student clicking their pen or just sort of fidgeting with something in their pocket? Like what's wrong with that? The idea that we're focusing on weaknesses or deficits why are they deficits and weaknesses in the first place? And if they're being framed like that, why do we expect neurodivergent students to have the same energy to apply to their work as everyone else when they're having to focus on hiding all these things and masking masking their stimming, masking the fact that they maybe don't understand certain things, the the idea that these things are negative at all is really negative if we want to actually embrace diversity, then diversity, you know, is different, you know people are going to be different in different spaces. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

13:42

That's I think that's that's something we should embrace. Actually, I think if we're thinking about the curriculum more specifically, it then leads us to the need to shape the curriculum so that success for the individual I think that can take many forms itself can be arrived at in lots of different ways. Actually, there are different paths to that success. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

14:06

Um, there's no one way yeah, that's so important and that's something that I mainly cover in my tutoring. I think it's so, so, so annoying when people kind of tell neurodivergent students things need to be done in this way. For example, if you're having trouble starting on an assignment, break it down into smaller tasks and put it in your calendar. Okay, cool, but am I going to look at my calendar? Am I going to arrive at that time slot that I've put to look at journal articles and have the energy to do that? Am I going to get anything out of blocking it in that way? How do I know how much time I need to apply to each task? And I think that a big problem at the moment and this is maybe a little bit of a hot take is that the solutions we do have are still trying to take the things that neurodivergent students struggle with and give them solutions that just shape them into being more neurotypical, rather than actually working with their own neurotype and working in an ADHD friendly way or an autistic friendly way, etc. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

15:16

And that's a massive, huge problem yeah, because I was going to say you know what I think is interesting a lot of the examples that you gave less is that you know, almost kind of flipping on its head, what you're saying. There. I think there's an element of actually, you know, as a neurotypical student, being able to relate to the pen clicking or the hands flapping. You know those, those kinds of behaviors, you know, I think actually being able to see them and recognize, ok, well, I have moments of that and I know that it's maybe because I'm nervous or it's because I'm struggling to focus. You know, I think actually that relatability is hugely important to then understand. Well, how can I translate that into the, the kind of strengths-based, you know, sort of approach that Graham's talking about is realising that actually, well, that's helping me calm myself or that's giving me you know how is it being turned into a positive thing. So I think that relatability is really key. Actually, just being able to communicate those kinds of behaviors is really important. 

16:09

Um, but, yeah, I like that we're having this conversation. I'm very happy about this one. Um, I think what I would maybe like to move on to, to kind of ask next, is to kind of keep the, the flow going, is thinking about, you know, the kinds of support that that are available then to to neurodivergent students currently uh, and students currently and which approaches are maybe most effective? But also, like you were saying there, is it about steering those students towards a more neurotypical kind of behaviour, or actually, are there approaches that do recognise and do celebrate some of the advantages of that kind of neurodivergent student approach? 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

16:46

Absolutely so. One of the biggest things that's available to anyone with what would be defined as a disability under the Equality Act is disabled students allowance. This is a sector where a lot of my work lands in. I'm a tutor in that sector and do quite a lot of workshops for stakeholders in that sector as well and disabled students allowance is different for all students but for neurodivergent students, typically what you would be looking at being given is assistive technology, which I'm sure we'll get into later, and study skills. 

17:21

Tutoring and potentially mentoring around mental health or mentoring is also available to autistic students as well, and it can be really valuable, but in my experience it's kind of been luck of the draw in terms of the type of support I've got. The reason behind that is that currently for tutors to be qualified under the sort of DSA framework, they have to have a dyslexia qualification, basically, or teaching experience plus some autism modules if they're working with autistic students. So for me, as a student with ADHD who wasn't diagnosed as autistic at the time, I was actually given a dyslexia tutor and while they were great at that, I didn't have dyslexia, or at least I think I don't. I'm sure my husband would debate me on that. But the problem there was that with dyslexic students who are still neurodivergent, there seems to be a sort of very specific end goal of we're doing this tutoring to get you to a point where your work has less errors in it or you're able to proofread it more easily. 

18:37

And the problem is with ADHD and autism is there is no sort of end goal where you're kind of trying to work through the specific mistakes we're making, because a lot of the mistakes that what people would frame as mistakes or not being as talented as something, I guess a lot of those things are to just do without a neurotype and it's really important that we get that sort of support that is neurodiversity affirming. It wants us to be neurodivergent. Still we don't need to be neurotypical to be successful. And that support is available and it can be great. But yeah, in my experience it is still kind of very much focused on your grades, is still kind of very much focused on your grades and a lot of the advice I've been given is just sort of break it down, do it a little bit of a time, and I could do like literally a whole two hour workshop on why I hate that advice. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

19:41

No again. No, I think that's that's really really helpful. I mean, Graham, from from your side, what's been your experience in this kind of space? 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

19:49

then I think there's a lot that can be done at quite a low level to create more inclusive environments which are actually just beneficial for all students. Often so I'm a big proponent of universal design for learning People may well come across that it's something we're looking at developing more at Sussex as well, and some of that can just be a reality. Um, if we know that an adjustment you know, using a particular font, using a particular color, is beneficial for some neurodiverse students, why not just make that the default? Because actually it's, it's, there's no difference, uh, and so that's, that's a good thing being able to use um plain language. Make sure we're explaining um specialist terms, we're not using acronyms again, it's, it's nothing that's going to be particularly onerous and it's just good practice all around, but it will help a lot of people, I think, because I think I think one of the things that I hear from neurodivergent students a lot is they really just want clarity and consistency and that's not that's not hard, it really does benefit everybody. 

21:09

I can give you an example from my slightly embarrassing example from when I started as an early, early career academic. I was welcoming a lot of new students. I've been talking for a little while about what we'd be covering in seminars and what reading they had to do for seminars and the way that teaching would happen in seminars. Right at the end, a student asked me which is a great question what is a seminar? And I was like of course, of course, I haven't actually said that at the beginning. So you know, I think it's really easy when we're in the environment all the time, just to forget that we have our own specific language and that won't be familiar to lots of people. So just explaining things is just a good practice. So I think some of this is relevant know, is relevant for people that um are neurodivergent, but actually it's. I think a lot of this is just just good for everybody yeah, I think so much. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

22:13

This is a couple of different things and you know, we've got some work at the moment we're taking forward around awarding gaps and it's it's kind of in the same spirit where actually, on the one hand, you could focus on perhaps the groups that are most impacted in terms of those gaps, and it's right to do that, but it's not a challenge that's just theirs. It's kind of a challenge that needs to be shared by the whole institution and embraced by, you know, all staff and all students as well, because actually it's for a collective good and this kind of feels of the same ilk that actually if we have a better understanding of one another, we can actually learn from the strengths of one another more. We can have that clarity that you're talking about, Graham, which is so kind of important. We do have as well. It's maybe worth just mentioning if people haven't encountered it before we've got our student guide to the hidden curriculums. This was developed by some colleagues at Leeds University and they created a kind of guide for students that effectively covers things like that. You know what? What is a seminar, what's a lecture, what's a journal article? But also a lot of different things about you know what it's like to be on campus and and kind of engage in university life and the support services available and things like that, and thankfully it's been really kind of well received in the sector. So I'll make sure we have a link for that in the episode notes. We also have a version for staff that's designed to support them to unpack the hidden curriculum within their own institution as well. So it'd be worth exploring them if you've not, if you've not engaged with them already. 

23:36

But the other thing you know, just to add to more, more time of me talking, I think you know from from personal, personal experience. I think I mentioned some, some friends who have ADHD, and what you've reminded me of, Liss, is that often when I've engaged with them, you know I feel like I've I've learned something. So they've explained a particular behavior and why they might behave in that way or why they might feel overwhelmed by particular things, and, if anything, I think it elevates our friendship and our kind of understanding of one another and it just it's kind of, you know, nice to be able to to just expand our understanding of each other and then be able to engage differently after, and I think there's so so much value in just taking that time to listen and you know, maybe, maybe it's not so easy, um, you know, within the course, semester, or you know all these kind of different things going on to take that time to pause and to listen and to understand one another. But the value in doing that is huge and I think it comes through a lot in what you're saying about. 

24:33

Actually, you know, how can we, you know, okay, move away from that sense of how do we correct someone, as opposed to actually, how can we celebrate what they're doing, make things easier if there are things that can help them, but equally, you know, almost implement some of the things that you're talking about into our own practice. So it is again a kind of shared approach and a shared kind of challenge. So I think it's been really valuable to hear something. Is there anything else at this point in terms of you know what we said about the kinds of support? Is there anything else at this point in terms of you know what we said about the kinds of support? Is there anything else you feel you've you've not covered that you maybe want to mention? 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

25:06

oh, um, it's a tricky one. I think one that should be mentioned is obviously, uh, learning support plans can be very hit or miss. I think they're great in the fact that they, um, kind of are just a bit of information of how students can be helped. Uh, I again haven't had the best look with learning support plans, unfortunately. My first one was actually quite patronizing. I've come to find in my travels that, uh, I'm I I'm at a bit of an impasse in that my autism's either taken seriously or I'm taken seriously as a person. And in the example of my first learning support plan, it was definitely that I just wasn't taken seriously as an adult and that was quite unfortunate. And in my second one, it was written before I arrived at the meeting to discuss it and featured such strategies as having a week extra on a deadline, which can be great, but wouldn't recommend for ADHD students, because if you give me a deadline in three years' time, it's going to be done in three years' time. If you give me a deadline in a week, it will be done in a week, and adding an extra week can sort of be unhelpful. 

26:25

But I think what I really want to kind of emphasize, I suppose in terms of support is it should be accessible to anyone. There shouldn't be the barrier of a diagnosis, because where we're requiring a diagnosis for something, we're requiring deficits to be mentioned. We're requiring a diagnosis for something, we're requiring deficits to be mentioned. We're requiring a psychiatrist, who is someone in a medical profession, to write down our struggles. And if we really want to be neuro-inclusive and move towards a more accepting society, a student should be able to just rock up to the library and say, hey, I'm struggling with getting my thoughts down and be directed to an assistive technology which is like a text to speak, no speech to text, sort of thing. That's really important, and I went through my whole undergraduate degree without a diagnosis and really struggled. 

27:21

And it's absolutely bizarre to me that now that a psychiatrist has written down on a piece of paper that I'm ADHD autistic, I'm now entitled to all these other things. I wasn't any less ADHD autistic before and I think that's what's really important. I'm not saying that, um, we don't need certain extra support, but the reason we need that extra support is because it's not available across the board. If every lecturer was understanding and you could go to them and tell them what you needed and ask for accommodations. We wouldn't need mentors, we wouldn't need all this extra stuff. I don't think that we're going to reach a world that's like that in my lifetime, but that's why that's there it's. It's not because, um, we absolutely need an extra person. It's because that support doesn't exist in the general sort of not curriculum but support system of the university for everyone, if that makes any sense no, it does. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

28:25

I mean, it sounds to me like it needs to be person-centered, but there's probably some logistical challenge around some of that. But then there are different ways in which to approach I guess. So so, like you're saying about showing up to your meeting, they'd already made those decisions without consulting you. There's, there's, definitely ways around that. We did have an episode of the podcast few episodes back with um, a colleague called sean cullen, and he was talking about his experiences as a, as a disabled student and the one kind of interesting takeaway. There were lots of interesting takeaways, but the one thing that comes to mind here was he did kind of suggest that, stepping into higher education, he definitely had to advocate for himself more and kind of own his disabilities more and you know, in a way that he hadn't had to previously. Um and I don't know whether that's something that that you feel as well that you know you do have to kind of step up and and and it's it's more about a dialogue as opposed to hear the things you're entitled to yes, 100%. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

29:21

I think that one of the biggest problems is the fact that we don't know in this day and age whether the people we need to ask for um accommodations and that sort of thing, whether they are going to have an understanding if I walk up to a lecturer and say, listen, sometimes I go non-verbal. 

29:41

If I'm having a particularly stressful day, if I go non-verbal obviously don't make me be in group discussions or that sort of thing. I don't know if someone's just gonna roll their eyes and call me a petty child, because that's the history that neurodivergent people have unfortunately faced. Um, I had a meeting with someone the other day who kind of was talking about autistic meltdowns and put quotation marks around it to suggest like, oh, this isn't a real thing, which is really unfortunate that those attitudes still exist. And I think one of the biggest barriers that neurodivergent students face is, even if these things are available, we don't know how to ask for them, because it's not always obvious who's on our side and who just wants a quick fix, who's more focused on our well-being than on our assessment grades, if that makes sense yeah, I mean, and, and, Graham, from your side, you know how. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

30:48

What's your kind of response, I guess, to to all of that? 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

30:51

yeah, I think, I think this is absolutely right. I think you know it's um, it's it's definitely around the sector. There are good practices and there are not good practices and I think, um, I think there's a need for support for staff around that, training for staff around that. I think raising that kind of familiarity and awareness is really important, um, but I think I'll come back a little bit to to the clarity and communication point as well, because I think that point you're making this about you know it not always being clear where to go actually and who to speak to and who's who's the right, you know, going to be the right person at that time. I think the importance of information timely, accessible information is. You can see the worth of this. I think it's just such a um, no, fundamental way of supporting people, um, but I think universities are often complex organizations with lots of different silos and bits and pieces and actually sometimes that communication can get a little bit lost. I think 100%. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

32:11

And the other issue with it is sometimes it's just like you were saying, like it's often just put on the students' responsibility to go and advocate for themselves student's responsibility to go and advocate for themselves. There's a theory by Dr Damien Milton called the double empathy problem, which kind of describes how autistic people move through the world, being expected to conform to neurotypical social norms, whereas neurotypical people actually never really are expected to. What's the word conform to autistic social norms? Not that we should have to conform to anyone's social norms, but it's of um us having to advocate for ourselves and actually does the support need to also focus on uh educators and making them educated about these issues and not always expecting the solution to be us changing or that sort of thing. 

33:13

And it is a massive issue in the neurodivergent community, particularly in the autistic community, and I think it really does affect students a lot. Like I can when I'm mentoring students, I can tell them all these great accommodations that are available until I'm red in the face. But if they don't feel that their tutor is a comfortable person to go and talk to about that, or if they feel they're going to be dismissed, then what? What do we do? There's not much that can be done there. I I can tell students this is available at your university. They have a legal requirement to implement this under the equality act. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

33:56

But the equality act unfortunately can't change people's attitudes and sometimes it just feels more dangerous to ask for help than it than it does to just suck it up, and that's really unfortunate it is, and I think I think you know it's it's about fostering a culture where not only should that not be happening, but actually where it happening, that it feels safe to call it out as well, that there are processes to say, actually I've asked for this, I haven't got it, so there's a recourse there and there's a way of reporting that I think you know. I think that's that feels like it feels like a really basic thing again, but it's it's. It's getting the basics right, which is so important. And I was struck by what you were saying about the energy of some of that and that that has a cost on the individual, not just to try to navigate different systems but also having to tell your story lots of times to different people, and actually that's got its own emotional labour 100%. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

35:11

And then there's also the additional concern. If you've masked so well that you have managed to appear neurotypical or just not an issue, people then won't take your needs seriously because again, they think if you sort of act well as a, as a model student and as a functioning adult in society's eyes, then when you do ask for support you're not taken seriously. You're called something stupid like high functioning or mildly autistic, which again could go into those for three hours each um, and it's a real shame. It feels like we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, in that there is support available, but does it feel like it's for us? Does it feel readily available? Am I to have to do more work to get this support than if I was to just not have it and suffer? I suppose. 

36:10

And energy is a massive thing to consider. Um, it's always worth looking into spoon theory, which is a way of measuring energy in disabled people. Uh, there's lots of great explanations out there, many of I just couldn't explain it to the same eloquence, I suppose. But it's worth looking into. And energy management to me is way more important than time management in the whole conversation around supporting any students, to be honest it's interesting. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

36:43

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like there's something around intentionality, or I guess you know good intentions, but then effectiveness. So, as you say, you know there's, there's probably lots of good intentions from like a provider perspective, but then it's still, I guess, taking into account the sort of end user experience and and you know how that can be enhanced further. Um, and yeah, maybe something like that leads us nicely to what was something that we've mentioned, but we've not mentioned since the the top of the podcast, in terms of ai and thinking about the sort of role of, of artificial intelligence or the potential of ai at this point. Um, I mean, I don't know who maybe wants to go first with this one, unless I think you may have a few points that you maybe want to to. Maybe you know how. How do we think that ai can better support neurodivergent students, but I guess all students, you know more generally, are there any thoughts around? You know how this can help them to kind of navigate their learner journey? 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

37:39

100. So I think that obviously it probably goes without saying by now that AI can be very, very useful for all students. It can help break down assignments. It can help with plagiarism, which is just often so convoluted, I suppose, into something that's easy to understand and can spark our thoughts. It goes back to what I was saying about executive dysfunction and feeling sort of unable to start. Dysfunction and feeling sort of unable to start. If I'm faced with a blank Microsoft Word document and a massive assignment brief with loads of words I don't understand in it and I'm going to take it all very literally, I'm not getting started on that because the energy of getting started on that is just too much. To be honest, it can be really overloading. 

38:44

Um, and then I kind of came across sort of halfway through my master's, I think, these AI tools and people were talking about them and how they were terrible and how they were going to lead to plagiarism and how we won't have any honest researchers anymore and all of this. And I agree that it's a big conversation that needs to be had. But my worry is that a lot of the things that have been called cheating within this conversation again, not everything, because plagiarism is cheating. Of course, a lot of these things are things that neurodivergent students can struggle with, like getting started, like understanding briefs, like finding relevant literature. I was having a conversation with a student yesterday who has ADHD and we were talking about she was doing an assignment on Parkinson's disease and I said to her well, what's really difficult is, if you go on google scholar and you search for what is Parkinson's disease, you are not going to get a straight answer in any journal article title. You're going to go down a rabbit hole, whereas if you search it on something like perplexity, which is maybe my favorite AI tool, it's sort of a search tool where you can ask very specific questions and it'll give you the sources. You're going to get an answer straight away and you're going to get a source link to it that you can then sort of follow your curiosity of. 

40:12

And I think what's really difficult is often neurodivergent students are very, very creative and innovative people. I'll often wake up on a morning I'm currently writing a book and have a whole chapter written written in my head, but when it comes to sitting at the laptop and trying to type something, there's a real sort of block between my brain and body in being able to start and if I just have a few prompts via AI to get me started, that's one of the biggest things for me. That just gets me going on a morning and gets me into a flow that just didn't exist before um and it's it's made a huge difference on my grades. I got a 2.2 at undergraduate back in the dark ages of 2019 um, and I'm looking at a distinction possibly in my master's, which will be very nice if it happens, but just my dissertation to go. So, fingers crossed, but yeah, it's really. It's something that's kind of taken away a lot of barriers, even just to getting started, that neurotypical students may not have. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

41:22

Yeah, it's really useful. Firstly, example firstly, you know I'm sure you'll ace your dissertation. You also made me feel very old when you said you got your tutu in 2019, because I think I finished my undergrad in 2010. So thanks for that, um. But yeah, I think that what you're saying there. 

41:37

But the reflective discussion tool is really interesting because I guess it's it's within your gift as well to to ignore it. It's a prompt, isn't so, like you're saying about just a place to get started doesn't mean that's actually accurate, but it's something to go from and react to, which, which I imagine is maybe more more valuable. Um, you know, Graham, I think from from your side, you know the one thing I was thinking there with some of what list was saying um, when we were talking about students being, or some neurodiverse students being, quite literal before, I wondered if there would be that concern about using AI tools and actually, you know, are there concerns for academic integrity? Is it something they should actually engage with? I mean thinking about, you know how you might be starting to use AI or considering that kind of role of AI and transitions and different sorts of things. You know, have you got any thoughts around how that's shaping up at Sussex? 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

42:28

Yeah, well, I think something I picked up from what Liss was saying is the boundaries around whether AI can or can't be used. I think can often feel pretty grey, pretty blurry, and that can't be used. I think can often feel pretty gray, pretty blurry, and that in itself could be about it, because I think you know that lack of certainty may well produce anxiety for students. You know, can I use this tool? Can I not use this tool? Am I going to be caught up for plagiarism if I do this or that? And I think that's probably that's one of the you know risks to inclusivity, I think at the moment actually, so I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record, which I apologise, but I think just spelling that out, being really explicit in an assessment brief, whether using AI is acceptable or not, and I think just giving that information really clearly to students, is again the kind of baseline I think we need to work from. There's a significant opportunity here. I think it may not be quick, but I think it's a big opportunity to really take time and think about assessment methods, why we're assessing the way we are and actually how could we create assessments that are more inclusive. Ai is maybe prompting some of that. Pardon the pun, but I think it's a real opportunity for academia generally to be doing that and I think lots of really good work is going on at the moment. But moving towards more inclusive assessment, I think, is really important. 

44:13

But I think there's also a risk and it's a risk that I've seen Jisk talking about quite recently as well, and I think you're there as well that there can be an anxiety on part of academics that actually AI is a threat to integrity, which in some cases it can be, and the response is to go to assessment methods that actually are not very inclusive and there's a kind of return to some modes that actually may have had problems in the past and I think you know, for example, a wholesale move to in-person examinations. 

45:02

Nothing against in-person exams. They have their place, they can be done very well, obviously, but actually I think for many, many students they're not very inclusive and, um, uh, moving to an assessment mode like that shouldn't be a kind of reaction to ai, in my opinion, um, I think, uh, I think there's a risk to inclusivity if, if that happens, uh, and so when we're thinking about ai in terms of neuro-inclusivity and inclusivity generally, it's both opportunity and risk. I personally would like to see us move in a way that diversifies our assessment codes and actually brings in more things like authentic assessments and actually thinks about, um, that question of why assess in a, in a, in a. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

45:55

You know it takes a chance to do that, um, and the risk is actually putting in place things that are a bit more exclusive than inclusive, and we need to guard against that yeah, I think, like you're saying, Graham, that the boundaries element and making explicit those sort of boundaries seems really really important and kind of going 360 and thinking about that transition support that we maybe started off talking about. There's maybe something in how the use of AI is made explicit within that space, but also, I guess, an opportunity to experiment and discover what's possible with AI. Well, you know, especially if you've just transitioned into higher education, you know it feels like there are chances to embed good practice but also to kind of use AI potentially as a sort of generative activity or, you know, maybe that's a way to actually foster an enhanced community. Or, you know, there's other ways in which it seems like it could be drawn in, which again might play to the strengths of, you know, different students with different experiences and might give that broader understanding of different approaches to learning. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

47:01

So, yeah, it feels like there's definitely a big kind of opportunity there um there, yeah, I think what's really important when we're kind of thinking about assessment types as well is what are we actually assessing? 

47:16

And I will mention I actually have no idea what I'm talking about when I'm talking here. I'm just talking sort of from the point of view of a student, uh, in this particular situation, but to me it seems quite strange that we're just um, in a way it goes back to the hidden curriculum as well. Part of what we're assessing is, um, people's writing skills versus their understanding of a topic, and those are two separate tasks but they're often lumped together and a student could be really, really passionate about their subject and have unique stances on it. They could be writing a publishable masterpiece for the top journals every other week, but they can't because of the barriers around academic writing and how those two separate tasks are actually creating a lot of anxiety, because you kind of think well, if I can't write a good reflective assignment here, am I a very good nurse? That's not the case, of course, and I think that that's a big barrier to a lot of students. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

48:24

I was just going to say, because I think it follows on what this is saying. Saying here, I think I think two, two things that come to mind for me. I think one is, whenever we're having these debates, um, I think having parity between students in mind is is also really important, and I think, when we talk about the clarity of what's expected in an assessment, part of that is about trying to ensure equality between all students, and I think that's I think that's really important. It makes the assessment robust and actually is part of the integrity of the assessment as well. So I think that's that's important. 

48:59

Um, but the other thing, uh, is when, when we're thinking about why we assess and what we're assessing and whether it's it's inclusive or whether there are barriers to a particular type of assessment, I I mean, I I really think doing that in conversation with, with students is really important, and I think actually, um, we, we often talk about, uh, working with students, but I think you know this is this is an opportunity again to really do that and to move in a direction that is collaborative with students, and I think that's a way of just making assessment a fairer system for everyone. Actually, it sounds a bit utopian, but I do think that's the direction that would be good to go in. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

49:46

We've spoken about love and utopia. I didn't think we would get to this point. It's an good conversation, um, no, I, I, I think this has all been been really and it's I. I think. To me it seems like there is something around. I think I said before about relatability and and just broader awareness for people. So I think having that better understanding of what some of those particular challenges might be, but that also, actually, very often they're not necessarily challenges, they're just different ways of approaching learning that need to be better understood and supported as needed. Um, you know, it seems hugely important to just, like we're saying, making the time to have, as you're saying there, grim those conversations with students and to appreciate, I guess, that that's an evolving thing, so that over time as you've said as well this, with, like ai coming in, how that changed your experiences and your approach to learning. You know there's going to continue to be that evolution, so we need to, I guess, be more agile and and be able to be kind of responsive to to that. 

Liss Chard-Hall Guest

50:45

Um, at this point I don't know if either of you have any other kind of final points you would like to to make before we we wrap up yeah, I would kind of say that for me, the thing is there's no answers to this whole conundrum, but the way I would kind of encourage people to think about it is very similar to covid, which sounds ridiculous, but bear with me. When COVID lockdown measures came in place, it actually benefited neurodivergent people a lot. I was able to go to the supermarket for the first time in years. I was able to do quite a few different things because of the COVID measures not worrying about people being too close to me, not worrying about things being too crowded and all the neurotypicals cared about was getting back to normal, and that has created a lot of issues. I now can't go into a supermarket for various reasons and there's a few other barriers, and I would kind of say that the AI conversation needs to bear that in mind, not in the sense that we're going to have a one-size-fits-all solution, but in the sense that if we are really going to be thinking about what the boundaries should be and how AI can be implemented responsibly and sort of rules around its use, we need to make sure neuro-inclusivity is a massive part of the conversation, because my worry is that before I did my workshop on it a few months ago. 

52:21

I didn't hear anyone mention them in the same breath. To be honest, it was all just. Students are going to use this to do assessments very quickly. They're going to use it to find all their sources and not read them properly, and I really think that that's not necessarily the case. But for those of us it has benefited. It's just allowed me to focus on work not not focus on work quicker or to a necessarily higher quality, but getting it done before the night before the deadline and this entire course. I have not been in the library the night before the deadline staring at a blank word document, and that's a miracle, and I just don't think that it's enough part of the conversation. I think it'll be a couple of years before we have a solution and I'm not going to pretend that it won't be, but it just needs to be. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

53:20

Present is all I would say yeah, I wonder if it's, if it's similar to what we were saying about assistive technology and the whole speech to tech, uh, speech to text, um tech, you know, there's, there's, it's almost maybe in a similar vein, isn't it that actually, it's understanding that for some students it might have, you know, more consistent usage, I guess, whereas for neurodiversity there are actually different roles that that tech can fulfill and it becomes um supportive in quite different ways in terms of, like advancing thinking or routine, or you know, it seems like there are so many different aspects to it that go beyond just sharing information or giving answers. So, yeah, maybe it needs to be kind of reconsidered in in that way, Graham, where you want to come in. 

Dr Graeme Pedlingham Guest

54:08

I didn't have much else to add, really, really. 

54:10

But I think, on that front, the need for being explicit in how it can and can't be used and designing assessments that actually integrate AI and do use that as an opportunity as well, I think is really exciting. 

54:29

I think it'll be part of a rich tapestry of assessments. It's kind of, I suppose, the the idea so that people can demonstrate their learning in different ways but um. But I think, uh, one of the, I suppose one of the things to untangle in that guidance is when I ai is performing that function of um, as you say, like assistive technology, of actually sort of leveling the playing field, and when it is um, crossing the boundaries of the integrity of the assessment and finding the sweet spot in that for different students, I think is well. I think it's a knotty problem and I think that's something we are going to work through over the next couple of years of the technology developing and the way it's used developing, the technology developing and um and the way it's used developing. But I think what you said about doing that in conversation, in collaboration, is just makes that more important. I think, uh, I think we have to have a real understanding of the experience of people um right across university communities with this um to actually make it positive. 

Dr Kerr Castle Host

55:55

We can't give the robots too much power. That's true. Thank you so much to both of you for that. It was a really great conversation. So, yeah, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks very much to Liss and for for joining us. Thanks very much to liss and Graham for joining us. If you would like to find out more about our student guide to the hidden curriculum mentioned earlier in the podcast, simply visit the link in the episode notes. You might also like to explore our work around supporting successful student transitions, which offers positive approaches and practical solutions to help support transitions to and through higher education, head over to qaaacuk, and search supporting student transitions for more information. Thanks again for listening. We really hope you enjoyed the conversation and look forward to sharing more content like this with you soon. 

00:04 / 56:49