Angel Gonzalez: Unshackling from the Golden Handcuffs to Master Real Estate Investment

Ever feel chained to your desk, dreaming of a life with more control over your financial future? My latest chat with Angel Gonzalez of Keystone Private Capital is a breath of fresh air for anyone who's ever felt stuck in the corporate labyrinth. Angel opens up about his leap from the structured world of finance to the dynamic arena of real estate investment. Revealing the secrets to breaking free from the 'golden handcuffs', we share a few laughs over our favorite floundering football teams before getting serious about the solid foundations of property investment over more volatile options like stocks or crypto.

There's a bittersweet tang to the stories of the roads not taken, especially when it comes to real estate. In a heart-to-heart, I reflect on my own could-have-beens in the market and the sting of missed timings, while Angel offers a treasure trove of insights gleaned from his experiences with market downturns. We agree that while regret can teach invaluable lessons, it's the willingness to stay in the game that ultimately leads to chances of success, despite an often unpredictable financial landscape looming on the horizon.

As we wrap up, the conversation takes a turn toward the essence of what makes life's journey worthwhile – the people we share it with. Angel and I dive into the art of building genuine, trust-rich relationships over superficial connections, and how mental health and seeking professional guidance can change the game in personal and professional realms. For those yearning to learn from Angel's wisdom, he's a tweet or a click away, ready to share the wisdom of Keystone Private Capital's treasure trove on commercial real estate investing. Don't miss this episode for an investment in your financial literacy and more importantly, your personal growth.

Follow David McIlwaine's Socials

YouTube | LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook

Join my newsletter @ MAC Assets

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Brick your Gold in Hand Cuffs. I'm David McElwain and with me today is Angel Gonzalez. He's the head and principal of Keystone Private Capital. Angel is a seasoned veteran in the financial sector, bringing a wealth of experience spanning over 19 years. His illustrious career has touched upon finance, banking, executive management all of which showcases mastering, and a diverse array of industries, including accounting, capital management, marketing and consulting. In 2005, angel embarked on a real estate investment journey with a humble portfolio of single family homes. However, his vision transcended the conventional, propelling him into the dynamic world of commercial real estate and syndication. This strategic shift not only expanded his investment horizon, but also highlighted his ability to adapt and thrive in ever-changing industries. His expertise spans all facets of finance and account management, encompassing financial reporting, budgeting, modeling and analysis, business planning and process improvement. This comprehensive skillset, combined with his extensive experience, positions him as a formidable force in the financial sector. Angel, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Hey well, thanks for having me, david man. You made me sound way too much better than I ever envisioned.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Well, you know I can quit talking nicely now and we can get down to brass tacks. So the first thing I got to say is we both live in Denver and you're a fairly new resident of this here town and I got to take Umbridge. You got a Vikings hat or bobblehead in the back of your office, and if we don't get this out of the way early, I'm not going to be able to handle it. So the Broncos are now six and five, so maybe we're on the upswing, yep, and the Vikings are. What's their record now? I think they're kind of same. Are they in the gutter too? I don't remember.

Speaker 2: 1:49

We're about the same right now.

Speaker 1: 1:51

All right, so we're all gutter football fans.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Oh yeah, especially after I was at the last game that they beat us. So that was, that was really pleasant.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Anyway. So, angel, let me ask you. This is called break your golden handcuffs. Have you ever had golden handcuffs as an employee?

Speaker 2: 2:09

No, that's. It's funny that you asked that way, because I think that, coming from corporate America and most of my career, I think that there are times that you do feel like you are handcuffed in certain ways and arenas just because you really want to. There are times where other you want to execute something or you really feel like there's a better path forward, but you really feel like you are not at liberty to do so. So that is definitely something that I have had to navigate strategically throughout my career, but it's definitely something that I can imagine resonates with quite a few of us.

Speaker 1: 2:43

So yeah, and you know, the reason I picked this was that I one time had really painful golden handcuffs and I uncovered the beauty of agency in my life by leaving corporate America and going into an entrepreneurial path. And I want to give our listeners empowering tools to do that, and I think one of them is alternative investing, and obviously, as a financial guy, you've had a lot of experience in that. Tell me what you're thinking right now on alternative investments in real estate versus stock market, versus dodge coin or all the others.

Speaker 2: 3:17

You know, for me, I think that I come from the coming from the old adage of the banking community that I was in for so long. I think that it was not the conventional thinking, or entrepreneurship or open mindedness to other alternatives actually was not the norm. You get very much into a very tunnel vision approach where it's like, hey, this is the only way forward, this is the path of the W2. This is the way to kind of look at life. What I will say is that what has happened is my career has evolved and as I became more of the entrepreneurial mindset or, I guess, energies in my life, I realized that the alternative approach actually is one that we should probably flip from what the current approaches are, that we're being taught in the collegiate level and all those types of deals, because I think that if we really focus more on the alternatives, so people becoming more well versed at the idea of being entrepreneurs, we would see more innovations, we would see more things pushing the needle forward and, quite frankly, like myself, I'm a big fan of real estate because I believe that there's also some actual, not only from a passive income standpoint, but there's a lot of tools and learning opportunities that you gain along the way as you're trying to explore some of these other avenues.

Speaker 2: 4:37

I've done everything from the stock market. I have done Bitcoin and couple of cryptocurrencies. I still have some of those, but for me, that's not really a passion of mine because of the fact that I know that there was a better cop, and to me, the better cop is real estate, and not everyone may agree that being that role, but I always look at it as I like to attach something to something hard and tangible that I can see, feel, smell, whatever that may look like, as well as having financial uplift for myself and my family. So it's definitely one of those things that I wish more people would be more open, because I will tell you, the moment I told family, friends, people I was thinking about alternative ways to do my business. I swear every door or everybody was like, oh, that's not going to work. It was so easy for people to be negative about it and I thought that was actually looking back at it as one of the ears of opportunity in our society.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Yeah, you know, it's fascinating. I was at an investment community of the Rockies meeting two weeks ago, ran into a friend of mine who's a financial advisor and he's got his own private wealth equity firm and we were taught our private investment management firm and he's an RIA and I was like you know, we ought to do some deals together. He said to me you either do stocks or you do real estate. You never do both. And I said, oh, I do both. Tell me more.

Speaker 1: 6:01

And what was fascinating about this dialogue is respected individual. He and I talk, you know, once, twice a month and we're friends. And I said, well, tell me more about this. And he goes look, if you're in a real estate guy, you are all in as a real estate guy and if you're a stock guy, you don't want any part of real estate. And I said, huh, he's like, yeah, if you believe in real estate, you always want to buy more real estate. And we were talking about it some more and we were talking about different investing instruments and I said to him Well, why won't you ever put an alternative investment like real estate in front of your clients? And his answer to me was two words was a.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Reputational risk is interesting that you say that. I can understand that.

Speaker 1: 6:52

Now let's talk about that for a little bit, because in my brain, reputational risk all of us have it equally. But for the RIA I was talking to, his belief was that his Investors and he, you know, he's got a really good book of business. I'd. I'd guesstimate he probably has 550 to 100 million or 200 million or more under asset management Not maybe a little bit low actually. And so he's got some guys who have big six figure, seven figure investment tronches and he's like I can't lose a penny for him.

Speaker 1: 7:23

And I thought to myself my stockbrokers lost a lot of money for me, yeah, and I've had my stockbrokers not making money for me. I've had my real estate guys lose money for me. You know, just full disclosure. I've invested in all assets except Bitcoin. Not a fan of cryptos, don't buy it. But that's just me being too white haired in my face. And so Me and Charlie Munger agree on one thing at least right. So it was fascinating because it was a reputational risk and I think about invest, alternative investments, and my takeaway was that the institutions were too scared to lose control that is correct.

Speaker 2: 8:07

Yep, that's actually exactly what my the first thing when you said that my mind went to was. This is what I was thinking about. Is that Sometimes there's such a short sightedness or there's such a Inherent risk thinking or way of thinking about hey, if we were to dive into other things that were not the so-called Best for, or if there's something else that we had to add on, or another tool that we got that down to our tool belt, that that might be actually risky to our investors or the people that they believe in what we're doing? And I completely disagree with that. I actually would tell you there is a factor of diversification that makes sense. I think that there's a factor of learning and growth that takes place, and most of the times I've even had it with people are like hey, man, I don't want to lose anything. I always think about it as it's not winning or losing, it's winning or learning, and so very Very well said.

Speaker 1: 8:58

We've all learned a lot.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Learn more if you're like I'm not, I'm not trying to be the smartest guy in the room, but I like to learn because that's that's the opportunities out there. And so I actually disagree with that mindset and that's what I believe, that I'm in the, and you and I might be more into Minority in this, in this situation, because that's just not what we're taught as we're continuing to come up through the ranks.

Speaker 1: 9:20

That's just not the way of thinking yeah, and it's fascinating because I think about the winning or learning, primus, and I said to the guy okay, so you're gonna lose money sometimes in the markets, and we were talking about this high yield instrument he was doing. That was basically a hedge and you could invest in a bank and get upside up to 30 points above, but if the banquet belly up, you lost 100%. I'm like what's the difference? He's like I won't get sued for that one, I'll get sued for real estate. And so my other takeaway was wow, is a stock market so cynical is to do everything to protect themselves, and we all can make our own answers to that question.

Speaker 2: 9:59

I think we understand what Wall Street is really built on.

Speaker 1: 10:02

I recently ran into another. I was flipping through the TV channel and I saw the movie Wall Street on TV. I started watching it and the entry was coming on and the Twin Towers were still there. I'm like, what year was this made? So I went digging up is 1986 or 89.

Speaker 2: 10:20

I don't remember which one it was 89, one of my favorite movies of all time, by the way, michael.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Douglas. I love that guy, michael Douglas and his son.

Speaker 2: 10:29

Yeah, it was a really good movie yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:32

And so I think about this in my experience as a guy that's been, you know, in the top percentages for many, many years of income, and I think what did I do right, what did I do wrong? And one of the things I regret is not having been in the commercial real estate business more aggressively when I was a younger guy. I don't know if you had some of that experience as well or not.

Speaker 2: 10:52

I would tell you so for myself, my experience I've been so, coming up as a banker and then bank manager and all that when I was in early 2000s. It was kind of situations that I had started and I really believe everything in my heart about real estate, except that some of the fundamentals and the things that I saw in practice where you could do stated income, stated assets, all these different things I completely disagreed with it because I'm like there are people I had, an actual friend of mine who made less money than me and had a house that was like five times the size, and I was like, how did you afford that? He was like, oh, I just told him I made this and I did this and I was like that doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense to me. So I've seen kind of the ebbs and blows of the market and what happens in real estate and I will tell you that after 08, I became sheepish because, like other people, I lost a little bit of money in my portfolio, which I was not expecting, and I was so bullish on real estate.

Speaker 2: 11:45

So it took me a long time to really get in the game and that's probably one of the if I try to say I never lived with regrets.

Speaker 2: 11:52

I actually was just listening to actually I think it was someone just on Sunday talking about regrets and how some people like never have regrets, and it's like that's not quite true. I do have a regret. My regret was the fact that I took an experience that kind of knocked me down and it made me very sheepish to be bullish on something I knew that if I practiced the right fundamentals that I would be able to win at. So it took me a long time to get into the commercial game because of that, but it's probably one of the best moves I made. But I think that I would have done it about 10 years earlier If it wasn't for the fact that I let the one opportunity in those losses impact too much of my thinking. And that's kind of what I'm trying to fight today is really giving us much information about how these downfalls and these different things allow us to really position ourselves better for future opportunities. So don't be, don't shy away from those.

Speaker 1: 12:45

There's so much to unpack there. You talked about 2008 and losing a little bit of money. I remember the market was cratering in and my wife at the time said to me she couldn't handle any more of our losses and I sold. I took my entire portfolio to cash the last day of the bear market.

Speaker 1: 13:07

No way 100% fact Realized six figure loss the last day of the bear market, the next day after it cleared and started climbing. Oh, big time too. Uh huh, side lines David's on the sidelines. So you go from there to regret, and I think about this word of regret. Regret is making a mistake and wishing you hadn't made a mistake. Right. But if you don't have regrets, how do you acquire wisdom?

Speaker 1: 13:45

I'm going to set it better myself. Wisdom is the reality of what your mistakes have taught you. Now I have things I don't regret anymore, because I can look at them as wins or I can look at them as lessons learned. But I also know that if I don't take a gamble, I can't win, and by gamble I mean a practical, strategic decision making person, decision making action based on the best facts I have and the most comprehensive facts I have at that moment in time.

Speaker 2: 14:22

So basically, what you just told me is that I should actually tell them, but my wife and I talk about winning the lotto. We should actually play the lotto.

Speaker 1: 14:29

Hey, you can talk about. You know it's one of my favorite fantasies is I'm going to win the lotto and then my wife looks at me and she's like, well, let's go buy a ticket. I used to work at the ad agency in Denver that did the Colorado lottery and we created the you can't win if you don't play tagline for the Colorado lottery in the early 2000s. And so, yeah, you can't win if you don't play. You also can't make returns if you don't invest your money. So, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 14:58

No, I fully agree with you. That's, that's, that's a great way of kind of stage in that.

Speaker 1: 15:04

So yeah, and we talked about losing money and we've talked a little bit about mindset here, so tell me, what mindset do you need to work through in this very turbulent time? I love how the stock market and the real estate professionals are all aligned on this, that right now, in 2023 and 2024, we're all kind of going to bump. It's going to be bouncy. Right now, the stock markets had a pretty good run up, but they had a really bad year, and so are they getting back to normal. Real estate markets been very turbulent, to put it mildly, and so there's a mindset that we all have to take into account, and I'd love to hear your point of view on that.

Speaker 2: 15:46

Yeah, I think it starts in this. This is and I know that this phrase gets used and thrown around a lot but I will say I think that during these times, we definitely have to think about our mental health to start, because in all reality, whenever things are challenging in our lives, you have to ask yourself what are you doing for your health in order to get through those moments? I will go as far as to say, like I know for a fact, that this has not been a winning year for a lot of people. I've had a lot of conversations out there and I've been seeing kind of what's happening to my peers, and the one thing that I will definitely say has separated the ones that I feel will rebound faster than some of the others is that they're leaning in into the areas that they can control. I see people thinking about exercising more. I've seen people reading more. I've seen like myself and some others were getting coaching from executive coaches or people in our lives, therapists. I mean, you can go about it from many different angles but at the end of the day, it starts with you, the person, the mindset, the health.

Speaker 2: 16:45

I think that the other thing that I'm seeing in this arena and this environment that we're in is that you cannot be isolated.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I think that if anything that we've learned, at least through COVID and things like that, is that we are creatures that are built to be amongst other people and really using each other to leverage our pain points or put ourselves in better positions going forward.

Speaker 2: 17:07

And so one of the things that I've done is I've looked to partner with different stylistic approach partners, and what I mean by that, just so that it doesn't get misconstrued, is that when in the earlier part of my career or my life, I would partner with people based on need, I would partner with people based on the positions that we were in because of the organizations that we worked with. And now one of the things that's probably been one of the biggest drastic change in my life is I partner with people and I invest with people that I know and I believe in and we have a deeper, meaningful relationship. So I've kind of been using the phrase. I went away from going wide with trying to get to know everybody under the sun and figuring out all the partners, and I'm trying to bring that down and get deeper, more meaningful relationships built, because they're intervaling times those deeper relationships are going to be things you're going to need to do.

Speaker 1: 18:03

Yeah, the phrase is either have a mile wide and an inch deep or an inch wide and a mile deep, and they say oftentimes that the riches are in the niches, and this is just what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 18:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:14

You're niching down on your friends, niching down depending on which, which forbridge we want to use on it, right? And so tell me, as you niche down on these friends and as you niche down on these partners and I assume that you're niching down as well and vendors and investors and all the people in your life what's been the biggest challenge in that process?

Speaker 2: 18:33

You know, it's interesting when you change the dynamic from everyone being available to you to very much meaningfulness and deep and depth. Because what, what? What I have, lisa, found is that that's not the environment that a lot of people live in today. So you are having to work a little bit harder to identify those two relationships. You're having to actually think outside the box in certain areas as to where to put yourself in the right rooms in order to build those relationships. So it's kind of one of those situations that I think that if you really want to try to niche down on your friends, vendors, whatever that may be, the work is harder in the beginning, but it's going to be worth it a lot more later down the line, because that's realistically the impact that it has when you really drill down into those relationships.

Speaker 1: 19:22

Yeah, and it's a difference between a transactional event and a relational event. In a transactional event, you can change out any element and still keep a transaction moving forward.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Right, can't do that in this way. You cannot do that at all.

Speaker 1: 19:37

No, sir, and it does create a more fulfilling and robust experience, for sure.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Yeah, and I will tell you that that's also, I think, one of the fears out there. A lot is that people are like they're so transactionally driven because they believe that that's the best path forward, because that's what they've been pretty much provided, the opportunities that have been provided, or what they've been taught. Where I would also say is that if you actually take a little bit of a risk in yourself and who you are as an individual and dig down and understand who is your I know people use this avatar avatar, but who is that for you? Who is the kind of people you really want to surround yourself with, to have the right systems, values, whatever, an alignment, and that starts with you understanding self, and so I think that that's the other component is that sometimes, because you haven't done those self work, you're not able to really understand who those people that you're trying to niche down into.

Speaker 1: 20:33

Yeah, and that self work is so crucial. It's something that you know, when I was being raised didn't exist. You know, a man was supposed to go self actualized by his checking account.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Yep.

Speaker 1: 20:47

And that's not reality today, and I think there's a lot of good in this. You know, Bernadette Brown studies shame and it's fascinating when you do any of if you're familiar with her work at all heck of a heck of a relationship builder, and I think it's the same in business.

Speaker 1: 21:06

No matter what your business is, if you're building relationships, it's bar none the best path, the best pathway to success. In a previous career I worked for a couple of different billionaires, and the first billionaire I worked for said friends do not fire friends, so become friends with your clients. And what he was saying was very anathema to the experience I'd had previously in my work career. But now I know it to be absolutely true. And friends will fire friends if you have to and it's, and he said this but you're not fired first.

Speaker 2: 21:49

No, and I think that's who the point in and actually that I think cannot be understated is because when you build the relationships, imagine having those conversations right where you can pick up the phone and be like hey, man, I, this is what I'm seeing happening in the market, this is where we're sitting at and you can conversation and walk through that. I actually will tell you, my wife and I we actually hosted an event in Fort Collins with a bunch of our friends not that long ago and one of the things was is that they were able to give me those hard questions and right then and there, as I was answering them and everything, it was so fluid and so dynamic because they were my friends and it was kind of one of those things where it was like there was a level of understanding, there's a level of compassion, there's a level of okay, how can we support you back? Because you support us, like. So it's kind of one of those symbiotic relationships versus kind of what you mentioned earlier, those transactional ones. There's no way to get that Right.

Speaker 1: 22:44

And I think you see this in the at. The word I keep thinking of when you're talking about this is trust. Yeah, and I think about we go back to 2008 and right, when President Bush was taking office and Clinton was leaving office. Yeah, that's right. I got to make sure I got the the president's right. We were in this banking crisis, right, and the the banking system was about ready to collapse. Out of trust, yeah, and people forget that trust is the core exchange of value and that's one of the most important things there is in our business is trust.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Yeah, I mean, I think that that word trust, I sometimes believe that we believe that, like sometimes it's easy to say, yeah, trust my family member, I trust this person, that's a relative relative to us. But when you talk about trust in that dynamic, especially when it comes to investing and in business, you can never underestimate that. That, to me, is such a currency that it that some people do not place enough value in, which is completely unfortunate, because to me, that might be up the utmost of currencies that you want to place value.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Yeah, I was watching Alex Hermoses video. He just put out a video about how to become a millionaire in 2024 if he's going to start a business this year, or whatever he talked about. Goodwill is a compounding accelerant, and another word for goodwill would be trust. Your company's goodwill is your good acts, your reputational value, your trust received by its customers and, as syndicators, it's crucial for us to make sure we maintain that at all times.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Yeah, and quite frankly, they're in the hardest, they're in the challenging times like we're in today, and I don't want to pay any sugary coat, any roses or all this stuff because I will tell you, I do believe that we are in turbulent times, but I also think that there are deals out there, there are things that you can do still out there, but I will say and state that, with all that being said, the quality of how you build those relationships and the way that you go about deploying that currency will absolutely drive whether you fail or whether you're successful. That's, to me, most paramount things in ways that you can approach to us.

Speaker 1: 25:09

There's a mic job for you folks. The quality of your relationships determines if you succeed or fail, and he's absolutely 100% right. So we've been talking for a little while and I usually ask my guests one thing or a couple questions before you wrap up. So tell me, is there something you know now that you wish you had known a decade ago?

Speaker 2: 25:33

Oh, man, man, that's a good question.

Speaker 2: 25:36

I will say that for me, the one thing that I had a challenging time with over my career has been patient.

Speaker 2: 25:46

I think sometimes and this is kind of back to that quality of the relationship is that in the beginning of my career I was so apt to want to be at the top so fast and I was pushing, pushing, pushing and driving that I completely disregarded relationship, disregarded the things that were in front of me.

Speaker 2: 26:04

I completely did not practice patience and went to my detriment. And as I become more patient and become better at like, I'm getting back to the quality of the relationships, really understanding that you know what? There were times I actually have to back out of the deals because of patience in order not to put my investors in the wrong deals or in the wrong situations. So there's a lot of takeaways from the work patients that I've had to learn. I still a daily struggle for me, Just to be completely candid, but that would be the one thing I wish I go back to myself and be like, hey, start with patience early, because driving so hard to get to an ex-member or an ex-place, sometimes you leave a weight that you're not extremely proud of, and that's something I definitely wish more people would want.

Speaker 1: 26:53

Yeah, I think that's a common experience that men that have been in their careers for 20 plus years can share, and so, okay, the converse of what you know now, they didn't know then is is there a piece of advice you follow that you wish you hadn't, or a really bad piece of advice you got that you'd like to correct?

Speaker 2: 27:10

Yeah, I actually will tell you that it's kind of counterintuitive to what we've talked about earlier, which is in my iteration of growing up especially as a Hispanic man that I grew up in his family of machismo, mental health and talking about getting help in whatever facet that was, was not even a thing growing up for us.

Speaker 2: 27:35

I come from a family of a lot of military people and it was kind of one of those situations where, for myself, I always was like shut off from an emotion and I was trying to be that guy that was Stonewall and looking back at that and looking at what how I have three, three children and I think about how I want to correct that mistake, because it is definitely one of those things where being in a, in a, in a place where you feel that you're confident enough to get help when you need it, we're able to demonstrate your emotional states, whatever that may be. I think it's actually healthy, not the unhealthiness that we were growing up learning about. So that was probably the worst piece of advice Don't cry, don't, don't do all that. I look back, I'm like I don't believe any of that.

Speaker 1: 28:24

The first person to talk about this on that side of the equation, and I totally agree. My dad was a retired lieutenant colonel. My grandfather was retired general, so I can empath, I can. I can connect to what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 28:36

Oh, yeah, oh yeah. You try to be like yeah, I'm feeling a lot of emotions about this and the other. Yeah, that works.

Speaker 1: 28:44

The irony of this is my dad now has a great deal of emotion, and I love it. It's awesome, yes, so okay, then one final question for you before I wrap it all up, but is there an axiom or thought or some sort of saying that you use day in, day out that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Speaker 2: 29:05

We've actually touched on that already on this podcast and I just want to make sure that I reiterate please, as you are looking to establish your relationship, avoid going wide, really focus on deep, because that is, to me, where you're going to get value add on both sides of the coin. And so what I really truly believe in that I'm starting to even mention it more and more on our podcast and things is how I'm ending just because, as I've been going through so many different conferences and so many different network and events or different things that I'm part of, I truly believe that that's got to be something that I keep putting out there, because I think that people are bypassing the value.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Awesome, love that. So, angel, if folks are excited about what you shared and they want to learn more about you and your company, how do they track you down?

Speaker 2: 29:54

Yeah, so I'm definitely easy to find up on social media between LinkedIn, facebook, all that. I'm Angel Gonzalez, but if you want to find my company where KeystonePrivateCapitalcom, keystoneadvantagecom as well as you're able to see our podcast and taking a leap in a commercial real estate, Awesome.

Speaker 1: 30:12

Well, thank you for joining us today and you've been listening to another episode of Bricker Golden Handcuffs.

Speaker 2: 30:17

I appreciate it.