Photography Business Alignment with Annemie Tonken

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Welcome to this transformative episode of "Tried & True with a Dash of Woo," where we dive deep into the concept of alignment within your photography business.

Join me, Renee, and my special guest, Annemie Tonken, as we explore practical strategies to realign your business for greater success and satisfaction.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• The Concept of Alignment: Understanding what it means and its importance in your business.
• Symptoms of Misalignment: How to recognize when your business isn’t quite fitting together properly.
• The Five P’s of Alignment: Preferences, Parameters, Products, Pricing, and Policies—how each plays a crucial role in your business structure.
• Practical Steps for Realignment: Actionable advice to adjust and enhance each aspect of your business.
• Real-Life Analogies: Annemie shares enlightening comparisons to everyday situations, like the misaligned water bottle lid, to illustrate points of business alignment.
• The Impact of Misalignment on Business Success: How it affects client interactions and your bottom line.
• A Framework for Continuous Improvement: How to keep assessing and improving your alignment over time.

If you're feeling like something in your photography business isn't quite right, or you're just curious about how to elevate your operations to the next level, this episode is a must-listen.

Annemie Tonken brings clarity to the somewhat elusive concept of business alignment with tangible examples and a straightforward framework. Tune in to discover how aligning your business more closely with your personal and professional aspirations can lead to increased trust from your clients and a more profitable, satisfying business venture.

Don't miss out on these insights—press play now and step into alignment!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

you are always hiking uphill. I'm a big believer that there are. I mean, I agree with you. There is that I call it the dead zone in the middle. But the um, there is that weird mid middle zone, uh, of pricing that can can be just really hard, cause you're not. It's like the clients are, they're, they're either trying to aim one way or the other way and you're just there standing in the middle. But it is possible, I believe, to run a successful business in that zone if you are extremely clear on what it is that differentiates you and you can create that messaging, because otherwise it's too easy to compare on price.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey friends, welcome back to the show. I'm Renee Bowen, your host.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Thanks for joining me here on Tried and True with a Dash of Woo, and I have two really important announcements and then we'll get to today's show that you are going to absolutely love. I have a phenomenal guest for you, but real quick. My first announcement is that if you are in my free Facebook group for high school senior photographers it's literally called that you can find the link for it below in the show notes as well. If you are already a member there or if you want to be, just join us real quick, because I am hosting a live this morning at 9 am. Okay, you guys, if you are struggling with your finances and you just aren't organized, or you don't know what to do, or you just really need some guidance, you want to tune into this Facebook Live Again, 9am Pacific time inside my Facebook group. The link is right below the show notes. Hop in there. We'll do our best to get you admitted as soon as possible so that you can join us, live and ask questions, but I have my friend, perry from Found.

Speaker 2: 2:11

Found is an amazing resource that I recently found that I want to introduce you to, but today we are specifically talking about the five major financial mistakes that we see creative entrepreneurs make and how to avoid them. Essentially, this is for you if you have ever felt, or you currently feel, that it's really tough to juggle your creative work with the finances part of your business. It can be a lot, and I've seen under the hood of a lot of photography businesses over the years. So there's some common mistakes that I see you guys making and, more importantly, I want to highlight them so that you can avoid them or fix them if you've already made them. And again, I will be joined by Perry from Found, which is an all-in-one banking app for the self-employed, for the creative an all-in-one banking app for the self-employed, for the creative and he's going to be sharing some tools as well to help us in our financial management, to make it way easier than it probably is for you right now. Found offers smart business banking and powerful, easy-to-use tools to make bookkeeping, taxes and invoicing simpler than ever. So after you listen to this episode, if it's bright and early for you, head over to the live session in the Facebook group so that you can uncover those common financial pitfalls that many of us fall into and discuss some simple, actionable steps that you can take to get those finances in check and make you just feel more empowered. So that is the first announcement.

Speaker 2: 3:48

The second announcement is that you might have seen on my Instagram or if you're on my mailing list that I am a speaker at this year's Milky Way online retreat, which is really big, because I normally don't create courses and programs for other platforms other than my own, but I absolutely love the Milky Way. I love Lisa and just her whole vibe and what they've created with her platform. I just love and I know a lot of you guys love her and love the Milky Way as well. So when she asked me to be a part of it as the senior photographer educator, I said absolutely, sign me up so you will get to shoot with me and edit with me a whole session. It's all done for you. You can watch me, you can hear me, see how I pose and I prompt. The title of it is basically editorial posing and lighting for Gen Z, because we know that our Gen Z senior clients are way more savvy. They want a certain sort of look about their images and again, it's all about you finding your style and you carving out your own stamp, your look and your vibe, because the more you that you are, the easier it's going to be for you to attract the right clients. But I loved doing this class. You can get my class as part of their online retreat and there's like 26 instructors, so you're going to learn a lot and it's a really good deal, you guys. So today it is officially on sale. Some of you guys signed up for early bird pricing and so lucky you if you did Also today.

Speaker 2: 5:34

The other part of this announcement is that they're announcing the winner of the giveaway. So if you didn't enter that, it's too late, but the winners are going to be announced today and I also have a winner, so you can win a seat directly from Milky Way that you had to have registered for, but you also are going to win one from me and to do that there is a whole other subset of that contest. So, again, that winner is going to be announced as well. So both winners announced today. So, if you entered, make sure you watch your DMs today, because that's how we're going to be letting you know my winner, and I believe Milky Way is going to be emailing that winner as well. So head over to the link that you can find below in the show notes for the Milky Way online retreat. Sign up for it. You're going to learn a ton and I am so excited to share this session with you guys. It was a gorgeous day in Malibu when we shot it.

Speaker 2: 6:32

If you've ever wanted to know how I use my reflector because I'm not an OCF girl I don't love it, it's not my thing. I use a giant reflector. I love natural light. If you've ever wanted to watch me shoot, learn how I communicate and direct my clients, use the big reflector and then also edit my images, now is your chance.

Speaker 2: 6:53

All right, let's talk about today's episode and our amazing guest. I have Anubhie Tonkin on today and she is the host of the this Can't Be that Hard podcast. That's a business podcast for photographers and she mainly focuses on things like sustainability, profitability and systems. Over there, annamie's secret superpower is cutting through the confusion to give you these actionable, step-by-step strategies and systems that are going to help you build a business that reflects your values, serves your needs and also thrills your clients. So if you don't already, listen to this Can't Be that Hard you really should. It's an amazing podcast, for photographers especially, but I just love her vibe. We have so much in common.

Speaker 2: 7:41

We're speaking about alignment today, and I know that topic can seem a little woo-woo to a lot of you guys, but Anami breaks it down into some super actionable steps, actually, and she teaches it in a pretty specific way. So you're going to want to take notes and I know you're going to get a ton out of this episode, so let's dive in. Hey, annamie, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited about this conversation because alignment is something that I'm very familiar with. I mean, I feel like you know you and I both have a similar space. We work with a lot of obviously photographers, and we have the same desire for them, I think, which is to be profitable without losing their minds, right? So let's just kind of jump into this alignment. What do you feel like. Well, first of all, what happens when we're not right and I know you see a lot of that, I'm sure. What is the biggest issue that you see photographers facing when they're not in alignment?

Speaker 1: 8:45

and how do they know? Well, I think I just want to kind of back it up to the fact that, like, here we are on tried and true, the dash of woo, like alignment is one of those phrases that gets tossed around and can be, I think, kind of misconstrued as something on the woo end of the spectrum. Like, to me, alignment is a real and very tangible, very diagnosable misalignment is very diagnosable in someone's business. The problem is I don't think we talk about it very tangibly very often. So somebody will say I feel out of alignment, like something doesn't feel like it's working. But they don't really know what to do with that. Because of course, especially as solopreneurs most of us are, and you know people who are busy wearing all the different hats to try and figure out, like, what part of that isn't working is often kind of a crapshoot at best and then, you know, more often than not just gets kind of ignored altogether.

Speaker 1: 9:48

The first time that alignment really became, you know and of course I'm a visual person, yeah, the first time that it became really clear to me like oh, this is, this is actually a thing, is one day I was playing with a water bottle like a Nalgene and I was trying to get the top on and you know it had gone through the dishwasher one too many times or whatever the problem was. And I was trying to get the top on and it wouldn't. It's like I could just feel that it was not lining up correctly and and I was like, well, I can't. You know, I can't use this bottle, I can't put it in my gym bag because it's going to leak all over the place. I don't trust this bottle, basically. And that all kind of clicked for me and I was like, oh, that's where an alignment versus misalignment in a business is very much the same.

Speaker 1: 10:38

So if you've got something off, if there is, you know, if those whatever they're called threads don't quite line up, you are not only going to be able to feel it in your own business, but it actually is apparent to the people who are, you know, out there searching for a photographer or, you know, looking to hire. I mean, we can take this way outside of the photography space. But, um, you know, if you go to somebody's website, let's say um, and they're, you know, it's like their pictures are really beautiful but their words just aren't really matching up with what you know, it's like they've got these really dreamy photos and then everything on in their copy is real, cut and dried or um, sort of shortened to the point or something like that. It's going to feel weird and you're not going to say like this is why this doesn't seem right to me. Usually we make those decisions so subconsciously, but that's going to happen, and so on the provider end of things. On the service provider end of things.

Speaker 1: 11:44

You're sitting there and let's say that the issue in your business is that you're not getting enough inquiries and you're saying I don't know what's wrong. I don't know what's wrong. I feel like I'm doing all the things I'm posting to Instagram eight times a day, whatever, and it is very difficult to be objective about our own businesses, but all of those things are so, so, so important. And, as I don't know, as business owners, I think the first thing that we do when we're not getting inquiries or when we're getting people who call us and say OK, thanks, but no thanks, is we immediately turn to my prices are too high, Like that's the point of friction. That is easy to sort of see.

Speaker 1: 12:21

It's actually easy for someone to say that that's the problem, even if that's not really the problem.

Speaker 1: 12:26

I mean, I'm sure you've had experiences like this where I had somebody who initially was like, well, I think your prices are too high, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. And then they roll up to the session in their like his and hers Teslas or something, and I'm like what is happening right now, like this is yeah, yeah, that was clearly just code, for I'm not sure. I'm gonna have to think about it. And you know, of course, money can be the issue, but there are so many other little places where that misalignment can can be the bigger issues. So the first thing that I like to talk about when I'm talking about alignment is that this is a real thing. It is a uh. When something is off, you can feel it, your clients can feel it, your clients can feel it, and it causes this breakdown in trust that can be really difficult to overcome. But then I feel like the question is OK, great, so something's out of alignment. What do I do with that? Right, yeah, does that all make sense?

Speaker 2: 13:19

Yeah, but I feel like too and you probably see this a lot as well, but a lot of photographers, we get so close to it as well and we are so like overwhelmed by all the things and we have like the crazy amazing brains and so we don't know. Like, yes, we know something is not in alignment, we know something is off, but we're so close to it that we either can't see it because it's our own stuff. You know how that goes. Like you're always much better at you know pinpointing what other people really need. So how do you at that point, what do you suggest? Like you know, as far as prioritizing or like looking at, okay, where is this misalignment coming from? Obviously, it's always helpful if you've got somebody somebody else's eyes on it right and like that's why people come to people like us. But if you're just sort of like trying to assess that on your own as like a listener out there, what are some of the things that you kind of want to be looking at?

Speaker 1: 14:24

Great question. So that was my next question. Once I kind of realized that was like, okay, great, so now what? And for me, I I am like a super checklist person. I need, you know, give me a framework to work within, and then I'm good. And so I put together this framework that actually, you know, it was one of those where I kind of I moved through that process and then I turned around and said, ok, what did I just do? Like, how did that, how did those pieces come together? And I was able to put it together in a I'm.

Speaker 1: 14:55

I love alliteration and so I'm always like, how can I make this memorable? So I came up with these five P's. You know words that begin with P, p's, you know words that begin with P, and that to me, really in this particular order, is a great way to think about the alignment in your business. But it is important that you take them in order. So the number one thing in any business where you are, you know, you're a solopreneur, especially a creative solopreneur like it has to be, like the foundation has to be built on your preferences. So you have to build a business that you're excited about, that you are, you know, and that can be. It can look like a lot of different things. It can be the people that you're working with. It can be the type of service that you provide, whether it's like really fancy and high touch, or whether it's like you're serving people who are not able to pay as much but you're doing like tons and tons of mini sessions. Or you know, you can build a profitable business a whole bunch of different ways.

Speaker 1: 15:52

But you have to first address like what is it that I want in my life? Do do I want all the glitter and sparkles? Do I want something a little more down to earth? Do I want to be working outside? Do I want to be working in people's homes? Do I want to be working with infants, toddlers, married couples? You know like the iterations are endless. And then there's the whole like do you want to have a very kind of low key, individual person business? Do you want to run like a studio where you're managing multiple photographers and like a sales team? And there are all different answers to those questions. None of them are right or wrong.

Speaker 1: 16:30

It's just a matter of assessing kind of who you are and you know why you wanted to turn this thing that you loved doing into a business in the first place. And sometimes we, you know, we start the business and then we're like, oh, I don't like this and that's OK. We develop those preferences over time. We try things on for size. Preferences are shifting all the time. So it's good to come back to that, even if you've been in business for a long, long time, especially if you feel like something's out of alignment, like maybe you're doing something that you were excited about five years ago and now you're just phoning it in. People can feel that, right, yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:04

So it all starts with preferences.

Speaker 1: 17:05

And then the counterpart to preferences is your parameters. So your parameters are kind of where your fantasy business collides with the reality of your world. So I think about parameters in terms of both the resources that you have at your disposal, so like your time, your money, the money you need to make and then also your restrictions. So again, the restrictions on your time, the restrictions on maybe one of your resources is that you have this great extra room in your house that you can dedicate to being a studio, but maybe you don't have that resource, so you're restricted to working on location for the time being, or whatever the case may be gear your ability to afford various things in your business like. Those are realities that we should all pay attention to. It's good to know first what your preferences are so that if they are outsized in comparison to your resources, then you can work toward those. But those two things really do have to be taken into account when you set up your business and design your business model. So those are the first two.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Does that sound right to you? Yeah, so let's go back to preferences just for a second, because, yes, I feel like go back to preferences just for a second, because, yes, I feel like you know, there's a lot of talk and and you know, we definitely will sort of probably get there a little bit too. But you know, we're always kind of talking about, like speaking to your target client and things like that, but people don't understand that it really does start with you, right, your resonance, and and there's a lot of different ways. I think that we can sort of package that. I guess One of the ways that I talk about it is resonance, you know, because it is it's like your vibe does definitely attract your tribe, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are specifically making this for people just like you.

Speaker 2: 18:59

No, that's not. No, that's not the deal. However, you have to feel good about it, right? Because if you don't feel good about it, right? Because if you don't feel good about it and that's what I see a lot of photographers doing is, you know, they probably start shooting a lot of different types of niches, genres within photography, because that's sort of what you do when you're learning and you're growing and then, before they know it, they're like really bogged down and they didn't take a second to adjust for that growth. And they have so many different things on the docket and they're like, wait a minute, I don't even really like doing that anymore and they you know what I mean. So just taking a minute to have that intentional thought and not just like unconsciously vibe right.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Like, just be like letting it go.

Speaker 2: 19:46

You got to take a second. So if you've been in business for a long time, right, and if you feel like something's off, start there, because there's a very good chance that you may have lost your love of it a little bit, and that's okay. And that's something that I feel like maybe some people even might need a little permission to feel about. Right, because, like, one thing for certain for me from the get-go was I do not want to photograph newborns.

Speaker 2: 20:19

That is not in alignment with me right, but like I did other things and then for a few years later I was like you know what no no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Seniors that's really really where I find the most joy and it's really important to just really follow that joy. So I hope that you guys hear that. So I wanted to just make sure we highlighted that, because following the joy, when you feel good about it, like it, makes that like such a huge difference. And then the parameters part, okay. So that's something I feel like a lot of people do get kind of stuck in too right, because it can be outside of our creativity maybe a little bit, and it's not as fun necessarily to think about that kind of stuff. So you can gamify it right, like just like anything else, like there's definitely strategies you can do. I'm a checklist girl too, so I definitely am in line with that, and that's one of the things that I do is I sort of, like you know, have to sort of write things down so I can have like that visual also of in reality in this, like reality world. Yes, like ideally, this was what I would like, but I'm not there right now. So what am I actually working with? Right?

Speaker 1: 21:32

And there are so many ways that, as creatives, we're able to say well, you know, if I won the lottery, this is how I would do this. But here's, you know, here's my reality right now. So I'm going to build a business that is in alignment with that future reality and sort of puts me on the right path to that, because that's also going to keep me motivated and excited and sort of talking to the right people. You know it all feeds the same thing and so that's all really good. But in order to kind of set that North Star and aim toward that goal, you really do have to be relatively clear on where it is you're trying to go. It's not just like I'm going to move forward and you know we'll see blindly sort of stumble around. You can do that. I did that for a long time it doesn't work too well.

Speaker 1: 22:25

It doesn't. And the thing is, and I do. I love the fact that you made space for the, for the reality. That is like we all start there and you kind of have to. I mean, there are very few, certainly, photographers who start a business, who have like. This is exactly what I'm going to do because, most of us are not.

Speaker 1: 22:43

you know, we're not coming into this as entrepreneurs, we're coming into it as artists and then we just kind of figure the rest of it out. So there's going to be a bit of blind stumbling around and that's actually kind of figure the rest of it out. So there's going to be a bit of blind stumbling around, and that's actually kind of a beautiful thing, as long as you don't overstay your welcome in terms of just like because that'll you know that'll burn you out really quickly. So exactly.

Speaker 2: 23:01

Yeah, but knowing where you want to go, that's like that's, that's like you said the North Star you can't like. It's just like a GPS. Yeah, like, just like a GPS. Yeah, you know, if you don't know where you're going I mean even before GPS, like for those of us who remember those days you still looked at a map you know you still had to plan out your journey from your destination. So, knowing where you actually want to be, where you want to end up, having that clarity, I'm really big on that. So I love this so far. Okay, let's keep going. What's?

Speaker 2: 23:30

the next P.

Speaker 1: 23:31

So once you kind of have that sense of those two things, then I encourage people to kind of pause and figure out. So I should make this like the six Ps pause and in that space I want you to sort of think based on my preferences and parameters. There's a spectrum. So it's not this is not like a this or that question, but if you imagine the spectrum and we'll talk about it in the restaurant world of like fast food all the way up to tweezer food, for you know, 18 course tasting menu, whatever those are restaurants, that there are restaurants there and there and at every single place along the way in between, and all of them will fill your belly over the course of you know some amount of time and they can all be successful if they are in alignment. So you know McDonald's isn't offering an 18 course tasting menu and whatever the you know the super high-end restaurant isn't like great. Do you want to supersize that? Like those? That would be like an instance of major, egregious misalignment. So you may be the tweezer food place, you may be the fast food place, but chances are you're somewhere in between. You are like well, I don't really want to serve the most difficult high end Like they need everything Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. There are people out there who do that and that's great, it's not me. And then there are people out there who are running you know what is essentially like a like a glamour shots. And glamour shots is actually a great example from the old days because they I looked it up one time they at their peak were making something like a billion dollars a year as a company because they had really dialed in this like one simple message and this one simple offer and they were able to like, upsell and do all this stuff on the back end, but they were bringing a ton of people in so very high volume at very quick rates, and so that is like that perfect example of that.

Speaker 1: 25:38

Most of us are going to be somewhere in between, at which point you have to think like, okay, I'm not competing on being the most schmancy, fancy thing. I'm also not competing on being the cheapest or like the fastest or whatever. I'm somewhere in between. So what is my special thing that I bring? Also not competing on being the cheapest or like the fastest or whatever, I'm somewhere in between. So what is my special thing that I bring to the table? That's kind of that pause place in the middle.

Speaker 1: 26:01

But once you've got that and you get really clear on that because it is really important to have clarity on like you know, why should somebody hire you? That's to me, that's the formula for figuring out where that all comes together. And then from there come your final three Ps and that is your product, your pricing and your policies. So your product is just your offer, but it can also be actual product. So if you sell prints and albums and all that sort of thing, those should be in alignment with what it is that you're kind of putting out there in the world. Again, if you're up on the tweezer food end of things, you really probably shouldn't be selling like refrigerator magnets of the photos that you're.

Speaker 1: 26:43

You know what I mean, like there's a branding piece to that and actually branding falls very much into this product. Like you want to think about how you're presenting your products and what your website looks like and all that sort of stuff really comes from where you fall on that spectrum. So your product and then, of course, once you've got that, your pricing should fall right in line. Unfortunately, one of the biggest mistakes that I see with photographers typically newer photographers their preference is to run a business toward the higher end, delivering more high touch service, and eventually they tell themselves I will charge more, but right now I don't feel comfortable charging that much. So I'm going to deliver that service and I'm going to sell those products, but I'm going to put really low prices on them. And two things happen there. Number one, of course that's not profitable, and so you very quickly start to feel burned out about it. But from the client's perspective it's also out of alignment. So they see that and it reeks of you're new and you don't feel confident in what you're offering here. Like if what you're telling me is true, that you're going to deliver all this fancy stuff, then this should not be the price tag. And so you don't end up attracting the high-end clients. And you know, if you do get people hiring you, they're like looking to kind of take advantage. And then you probably get a lot of people that you never even hear from, because they come to your website and they say this doesn't again. It can be subconscious, but they're like this doesn't make any sense. I feel like something's off here and they bounce.

Speaker 1: 28:17

So products, pricing, and then policies, and policies is kind of the one that is a little harder to explain.

Speaker 1: 28:23

But I always say you know, if you're at the restaurant with the tweezer, food, right, your guest gets up to go to the bathroom and you fold the napkin to put it back down and every plate gets cleared and you get new silverware all the time and all of those things.

Speaker 1: 28:40

If you're sitting in the drive-thru, you know they may or may not even like send out plasticware Like it's not. It's a totally different thing, and so your policies need to reflect the rest of it. If you're serving that higher end thing, your policies are going to favor your clients. Maybe you are more than happy to sign an NDA and never share any of your photos with you know 80% of your clients because they're all Hollywood A-listers and that's fine because they're paying you 10 grand for their family session or whatever. But if you're serving a market where they're competing on price, you know it's going to be like if you're 10 minutes late to your session, you have to reschedule and pay, you know, a new session fee or whatever. All of those. You know there's a million different policies for any business.

Speaker 1: 29:29

But when you're setting your policies, you're going to be thinking about like how much is somebody paying? What kind of an experience are they getting? What's the vibe to borrow your phrase needs to be in alignment with the policies.

Speaker 1: 29:42

So, I think that if you have those five things and you're able to go to your various copy on your website and your social media presence and the way that you correspond with your potential clients, if all of those things are in alignment, you should feel that and your clients should be able to feel that yeah, 100.

Speaker 2: 30:02

I did a whole episode a while back because I was obsessed with the show the bear, I don't know if you've watched it, and I had also just read Unreasonable Hospitality, which is a fantastic book.

Speaker 1: 30:16

And, fun fact, the guy who wrote Unreasonable Hospitality works at a restaurant that I worked in in my early 20s, which is pretty fun.

Speaker 2: 30:25

I love that Will Gadara, I love him. That's so funny because I mean I all through college waited tables and I mean I worked at Spago and Beverly Hills. I definitely ran the gamut of, like you know, low end to high end, like all the, all the years that I waited tables, but I felt, I really feel like it was, I mean, fantastic training for life in general, but also for sales, and I didn't realize how much sales training I was getting when I was doing that. I thought it was just, you know, in college and trying to pay my bills. And looking back when I started my photography business, I was like, oh okay, I'm starting to see this correlation?

Speaker 2: 31:06

This is amazing. Yeah, I did this whole sort of episode on that reflection because I feel like there's so much to learn from that and it really does Like your products and your policies. Like you said they do. They have to be all of trying to wanting to be this higher end and provide this amazing service and go the extra mile and have this amazing customer service that you know. They're probably heard. That is important, right, but the pricing is not backing that up. It's not an alignment and there is a big disjoint.

Speaker 2: 31:52

Just recently, I had a mom she came by the studio to she really wanted to get senior portraits for her daughter and you know she had a lot of questions. So I was like, just come by the studio, like you know, and she was like, oh perfect, you know, cause I was always saying like this hop on a call or whatever, but she had like some some serious questions. I was like you know what we're just, yeah, we just we just need to sit down, like, if you're really serious about doing it, like, let's just sit down together and I'll show you what this whole thing entails. And so you know we were talking and she was looking at all the albums and stuff, because that's my, my main product. My main product that I sell are albums I sell into every single client. My main product that I sell are albums. I sell one to every single client, and I learned that from waiting tables because of the specials every night. So right, we would have these specials. If you've never worked in a restaurant, especially a high-end restaurant, you would have these specials every night. I'm sure if you've been a guest in a restaurant, you know that. But on the other side of it, there was oftentimes either contests or things like that that the management would do to try and get their servers to sell more of them. Well, I'm a super competitive person anyway, so I took it upon myself to want to sell the most of the specials, but I learned early on that if I tried to sell all of them, it didn't work. I had to pick one, and if I picked one that I could really get behind, I sold them. Like, like, it was the easiest thing in the world and all you had to do was just be excited about it and lean into it. And it's the same thing with products, right? So, like, that's my thing. Albums Like. I am excited about them, I love them, I have them all over the studio, like that's the thing, and so, anyway, I digress.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Oh, no, no, and I could totally like go down this, this restaurant rabbit hole. So so far, I same thing. It wasn't so much contests. But of course you know, one of the things that in high end restaurants you're trying to sell is wine and high end wine. And and I same thing, learned early on that and at this one French restaurant with a giant book that we had, and we did have a sommelier, but it wasn't always practical to like call the sommelier over for every single table.

Speaker 1: 34:11

And I knew the certain kind of person who didn't. Necessarily they looked a little deer in the headlights when they got in front of the wine list but they didn't want to look like a jerk in front of their guests. So I go over there and they say, oh, is there anything you recommend? And you know I would take into account what they were going to eat, whatever. But then it was.

Speaker 1: 34:29

I would pick two bottles and I would say, oh, let me tell you this mini story, like a one sentence story. This one is amazing, you know, blackberry jam and notes of spice or whatever, like whatever. I would say. So a very brief description, and then be like the winemaker was in last week and you know they were talking about blah, blah, blah and and if, if you could just connect it a little bit that way, narrow it down for people? Man, I sold a lot of high-end wine and didn't even really think about it as like I'm selling anything at that stage of my life. If you had asked me I would have been like, oh, I hate selling stuff, but I knew that they were going to enjoy it and it was going to elevate their experience, to sort of invest a little bit in a bottle of wine, and everybody at the table was going to be like, oh, that's so great. And once you sort of get into that mindset, it works really well.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Well, you're giving them what they want.

Speaker 2: 35:23

And that's really what sales is, if we really want to get on that topic for a second. Like, this isn't about trying to sell people into something that they don't want. They're coming to you and this is what I tell photographers all day long. They're coming to you because they were attracted to your work, so you are giving them what they want in a really cool, exceptional way. You're just serving them at their highest potential. So, like I saw this, this, this reel the other day of a photographer who was talking about like why do I feel so guilty about charging my clients? And there were like thousands and thousands and thousands of comments of people saying the same thing and I was like, oh my God, you guys, like I get it, but y'all like they are coming to you for a reason and it is time for you to own that.

Speaker 2: 36:11

So, okay, that's a whole different subject, but let me get back to my little story about the mom, because this does really sort of like go back to what we were talking about, that what I called the gray zone of the the really high-end photographer versus the maybe shoot and burn, you know, lower price photographer.

Speaker 2: 36:30

There's this middle gray area that is a death sentence. Basically, I have seen over and over again because it's not sustainable, because that is where most of them fall, because they're trying to do too much, like you're saying, but they're not priced high enough. And the mom the mom actually pointed this out to me, like that was really interesting to me because I've I've seen it in my business and I've talked to other photographers about it. But she was kind of looking through all these albums and she's like okay, so this is a really big investment for us. She said we really absolutely love your work, but you know, it's definitely a big investment. She goes it's really interesting, there's like you and then there's like a whole bunch of other really inexpensive photographers, but there's nobody like in the middle. I'm like, yeah, do you know why?

Speaker 1: 37:16

And she was like, yeah, that's so interesting.

Speaker 2: 37:18

I was like they got burnt out and they ran away because that is not sustainable. And I was like it's just not. Like what goes into this, you know, and I kind of pointed to the studio. I was like, yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, this is not my hobby, this is my full-time job and how I support a family of five, you know. So it's not sustainable. And she was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know what I mean. Like even our clients, you know. So a lot of that has to do with how we're educating them and I know you, you know, sort of brought that up a little bit too, like the copy on your website, your messaging and all of that has to really be dialed in. So, those five P's well, six maybe, I think right, because you added pause. I added pause. I want to like just highlight them again real quick and I, you know, just so that we get a really clear picture for people. So, so that we get a really clear picture for people. So, preferences, parameters.

Speaker 1: 38:06

You start with your preferences and parameters. Yep.

Speaker 2: 38:09

And then you pause for a minute, and then you pause, yep, and then it's products and pricing and your policies. But does pricing come last, or like, does it matter, like what?

Speaker 1: 38:19

do you think I typically those last three can really kind of move around? I mean, obviously I think the products and pricing kind of move around. I mean, obviously I think the the products and pricing kind of go together because, especially if you're talking about like a tangible good, there is like a formula for that. That's just math. But as far as your markup on your service and time, I always say if you are working with low volume, you have to mark up every single part of your business to probably what will feel like an uncomfortable degree, because there is. You can only take a couple of clients a week. I'm you know.

Speaker 1: 39:00

Again, I'm sure that you've had clients like this. Early in my business I had a client who came to me who was a doctor, who made some comment about, like you make more per hour than I do and I, you know, and then in my mind was thinking right, but I don't work doing the thing that makes, you know, an hourly rate like this, 40 hours a week I make my money in little clusters and then the rest of the time is I have to pay myself out of that Exactly. So anyway, as far as your question policies, I feel like just comes as a natural extension of that, and policies are also one of those things that we're always sort of adding in our businesses. You know, something goes sideways and you're like time for a new policy about, about this thing. So I think that having the rest of those kind of guiding principles in place gives you a framework that you can then use to build your policy.

Speaker 2: 39:53

No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I always, you know, with my coaching students, it depends on where they are. Honestly, you know, as you know, like everybody has the space that they're in already and has their own map of the world. So, you know, we need to kind of like assess all that and take it into consideration, I think. But in general, I feel like pricing needs to sort of usually for me it's not what I start with put it that way, you know, like we kind of have to get some good foundation built and alignment with these other things first, and then, you know, pricing is going to naturally sort of have to be woven into that, because it's also the thing that most photographers are trying to sweep under the rug. Nine times out of 10, you know, they know they need to raise prices just to be sustainable, but they're ignoring it.

Speaker 2: 40:42

It's like, and it's just like anything else, the more you ignore it, the bigger it's going to get the louder it's going to take on you mentally and also on your family, and everybody has their breaking point, but you have to really be honest and assess that, because there's a lot of different ways to run a business. You don't have to do it specifically like one particular person, but what matters is that you have to be really honest about where you are and where you want to be.

Speaker 1: 41:26

What you want and what you need. Yeah, and it is. I mean, it is super demoralizing to work so hard and you know, like with anything else, it's always harder in the beginning. But it's also harder if you are working with clients and you're having to like squeeze every last dollar because they came to you, because you were the cheap option. You are always hiking uphill. I'm a big believer that there are I mean, I agree with you, there is that I call it the dead zone in the middle zone of pricing. That can can be just really hard because you're not. It's like the clients are, they're, they're either trying to aim one way or the other way and you're just there standing in the middle. Yeah, but it is possible, I believe, to run a successful business in that zone if you are extremely clear on like, what it is that differentiates you and you can create that messaging, because otherwise they're just going to. You know it's too easy to compare on price, but that is it's a taller order than people give it credit for.

Speaker 2: 42:34

Absolutely Boundaries and your own boundaries, and that's really what it kind of comes down to. If you're going to do that, you got to be really clear with yourself and not let yourself off the hook, because that's usually what ends up happening because of the people pleasing. That's a whole different topic, but that is a huge thing of why, especially female photographers literally just like lay themselves across the coals for their clients Because, again, they they feel this like perceived guilt. That's not even happening. It's like literally coming from you. So, that being said, you have to be really clear about those boundaries too. So that's a really, that's a really good point.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Okay, so I love, I love this little roadmap. I feel like that gave us some really good perspective and I know that you know you talk about this a lot on your own podcast and everything else that you guys do. So before we kind of like wrap up and I kind of point people in your direction so that they can get into your world if they don't know already, because the show is Tried and True with a Dash of Woo and we've been talking a lot about strategy, I feel like I want to know a little bit about you personally. How woo, are you right Like, are you into astrology? Do you know your human design, like anything like that? What's what's sort of your take on that? Do you, um, do you vibe with it? Where are you at with?

Speaker 1: 43:53

it well, somewhere between my restaurant days and becoming a photographer, I was actually in midwifery school, so a lot of people will classify that as pretty dumb and yeah, I quit halfway through my master's program to pursue photography, but that was sort of a big piece of my background.

Speaker 1: 44:17

And then, yeah, I mean I love a good Enneagram and everything else. It really is pretty funny how, like, I'm very practical in my life and I look at things in a very practical way, but I really enjoy a lot of things that I think some people find to be pretty woo, so so I'm a bit of an onion in that way.

Speaker 2: 44:38

Do you have? Do you know your astrology? Do you have any Capricorn? I don't.

Speaker 1: 44:42

I actually don't know anything about astrology. One piece of it that like I've just never. Yeah, I mean I know I'm I'm a Pisces, but oh, yeah, somebody asked me what my kids signs were and I was like I don't know.

Speaker 2: 45:08

Yeah, You've got to have, you've got to. Pisces makes sense, which is why I feel like the flow and like the opening up to like other things and being interested in like the arts and all of that kind of stuff. But I bet you definitely have some Virgo or Capricorn placements in there somewhere because you do seem very logical and strategic and like a checklist.

Speaker 2: 45:25

So I'm a Virgo and we definitely love that stuff. But Pisces is my sister sign and so most of my friends and close people women, especially in my life are Pisces, which is really interesting.

Speaker 1: 45:39

So you just went through a birthday season.

Speaker 2: 45:43

Yeah, basically, I mean like they were like okay, it's your birthday, it's your birthday, yeah, yeah, so, but it's super fun. But yeah, I love the whole midwife thing. I, uh, I did natural child birth with a midwife for my first son 25 years ago, before it was, you know, when everybody thought it was really crazy crazy.

Speaker 1: 46:02

I know that I, my kids, were both born with midwives as well, and I I got a lot of the side eye for that as as well.

Speaker 2: 46:10

But I love it Very cool. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today. Where can people where do you prefer people connect with you? We'll list everything in the show notes, but what? Where's your preference or people find you?

Speaker 1: 46:23

Sure, we'll start with my preferences. Yes, actually. Well, let me just really quickly say, if this is something that you're interested in, like sort of you know, if you feel like maybe there's an alignment issue in your business and you are interested, I do have. It's like an eight question quiz. It's super simple and fun about your ideal business model. That just kind of taps into that a little bit. But and I'll put that on a page just for you, so and your listeners so it's this can't be that hard. Dot com slash Renee, and then and then everything else is this can't be that hard. My podcast is called this Can't Be that Hard. The website is this Can't Be that Hard. That's my Instagram, all the things. So I would love to connect Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 47:04

OK, yeah, Iall go do that and thank you again so much. It was really great to finally meet you virtually.

Speaker 1: 47:11

It was a pleasure and I definitely feel like we, our stars, are aligned in this way. I can't wait to nerd out about restaurant stuff again sometimes.

Speaker 2: 47:20

Yeah, awesome, okay, all right, have a great day, amazing, right, okay, alignment how to find yours, how to know when you're out of it. I know that there's really good takeaways from you guys, so don't forget the framework that she goes over the preferences, the parameters, the products, the pricing, the policies. Okay, make it easy for yourself. Outline it. Make it easy for yourself, outline it. Really, just kind of sit with this and figure out how can I make my business feel more aligned and how impactful am I being with my intention behind it. So some really good stuff to think about. Like I said before, really good actionable steps as well. So I would love to know your takeaway on this episode. As always, please hit me up over on Instagram and if you want to share about this on your Instagram, that would be amazing. Tag both of us so that we can see it and give you a shout out.

Speaker 2: 48:24

It's always really important for me to know, like, what you guys are thinking about these episodes and how they affect you. So the best way to do that is for you to share about it and then tag me. And if you want to take it a step further, obviously, you know, leaving a review would be the coolest thing ever. You can do that super easy at ratethispodcastcom slash. Renee Bowen. Review reviews are always so appreciated and of course, it does a lot for us little podcasters as well, because it gets us in front of new people and it also helps me be able to source really amazing guests for you guys so that I can continue bringing you a lot of free, valuable, incredible resources for both strategy systems and your mindset. Have an amazing week. It means the world to me that you spent a little time with me here today and I can't wait to share more time with you again soon. Love you, bye.