The Air We Breathe: Finding Well-Being That Works for You

E22. No Rules in Escaping From Diet Culture with Ginny Hogan

• Heather Sayers Lehman, MS, NBC-HWC, NASM-CPT, CSCS, CIEC, CWP • Season 1 • Episode 22

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Join me today as I chat with writer and comedian, Ginny Hogan. I contacted Ginny after I read her article on the shame she felt as an adult with an eating disorder.

Being in eating disorder recovery myself, I wanted to know more about her journey and how she was feeling now.

In our conversation, we discussed how it feels to be adults recovering from eating disorders (which can be incorrectly perceived as a teen issue). 

We also touch on the impact of Instagram and diet culture on body image, and the need to acknowledge the struggles around food and body instead of focusing on someone's physical appearance.

Ultimately, Ginny and I emphasize the importance of being grateful for our bodies' capabilities as we strive towards recovery. 

If you take anything away from this episode, I hope it’s that no recovery is wrapped up nicely in a bow. You can be proud of your own efforts to have a recovery that is as unique as you are.

Bio:

Ginny Hogan is a stand up comic & writer. She's the author of "I'm More Dateable than a Plate of Refried Beans," and you can find her on Twitter/Instagram at ginnyhogan_.

Resources:

Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to The Air We Breathe. I'm your host, heather Sayers-Laman. I'm a certified intuitive eating counselor, national Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, certified personal trainer and weight-inclusive well-being program consultant. The Air We Breathe is a podcast sharing stories of individual experiences in diet culture. Some guests have recently become aware of diet culture, while others are well-versed in the impact and have created a career in advocacy and equity. No story is more worthy than another. The goal is to help people understand that they are not alone in their struggles, and the systems that create these issues impact us all. This podcast contains talk about eating disorders and disordered eating. We do minimize mentions of specific behaviors and numbers, but it's still a topic nonetheless. There also could be some swears and or adult language here. Choose wisely if those are problematic for you. Hello and welcome to the Air We Breathe podcast.

Speaker 1:

Today's episode is with Jenny Hogan And, although you have already heard a content warning, jenny and I are talking about eating disorders and disordered eating, so if that is a problem, again like please choose wisely for yourself, and I also wanted to say so. I found Jenny through her writing. She's a writer and a comedian. As you know, i'm a board certified health coach and exercise scientist. So we are not eating disorder experts in this conversation. We are having this conversation as two people who have had eating disorders.

Speaker 1:

So there is no advice, there is no direction. There isn't anything out of here that would be appropriate for you to pull out for yourself. So I just want to make that clear. I will have in the show notes resources if you are looking for help with an eating disorder, but do just know that this is a convo between a couple of people and how they kind of like make their way through this scenario. Anywho, it was great talking to Jenny. I hope you'll read her article as well, because I thought it was pretty interesting and we'll talk about that in the episode. Enjoy, all right. So today I'm here with Jenny Hogan And Jenny, why don't you just jump in and tell us a little bit about yourself? Hi, i'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

So I'm a writer and comedian. I live in New York City, i just moved to Forest Hills, queens, and I got a cat, which is very exciting In terms of the. Do you want me to jump into talking about the article or are we going to get to it? Sure, have you not got connected?

Speaker 2:

because I wrote an article for Jezebel about how people are have a lot of shame about opening up about eating disorders as adults, and it's something I've experienced in my own life and something that I've seen with a lot of people is that eating disorders are extremely common. But I think that people feel this pressure to declare that they've recovered from them, when I'm not sure that the recovery is ever as smooth as it kind of gets portrayed. Or people feel this pressure to have it tied up in a neat little bow, and I don't think this particular problem is unique to eating disorders. I think in general people want to feel like their problems can be fully resolved. But in the context of eating disorders I think it's particularly insidious that we assume that there are problems that someone should recover from by a certain age, that there's some kind of stigma or immaturity to continuing to struggle with eating disorders. So that was what my article is about. I write about all kinds of different things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and I found the article was really interesting on several levels and I just reread it to make sure that I was current And I think what occurred to me, or what I felt like of all the people that you had there tried to talk to about it and they were like no, i'm good.

Speaker 2:

That I was like are they?

Speaker 1:

No, i mean because I think, as disordered eating becomes so much more normalized and also socially applauded, I'm like oh my gosh, look at you, you're not eating. That. That I think it really starts to muddy the waters about eating disorders, because people I mean certainly people don't get diagnosed and people don't recognize, like, oh, that this is troubling behavior And I was wondering, since you wrote the article, if you've had different conversations with people about it and have found more people who are more open and acknowledging their disordered eating or eating disorders.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because one of the trends that I had observed and I live in New York City, i'm in entertainment, so I'm in a field where it's and a lot of my friends are women, i think I which isn't to say that I mean eating disorders occur in all genders and in all places, but I think I've always been in a community that has a high prevalence of eating disorders. I know a lot of people who have been very willing to tell me that they used to have eating disorders, but fewer who will say that they still have it And since writing the article I've tried to open up about it. But I still fall into the same traps that I described in the article of being ashamed of it. Like it's for me to actually say like I have an eating disorder is hard for me, it's true, and I'm saying it now, but like it feels almost like too severe. I would rather sometimes they'll say like I struggle with food or I have a lot of anxiety about food. Often when I say that to other people, they'll admit that they feel the same way. I have friends who are a little bit more like, more comfortable, saying that they have eating disorders, which I think is good. I think, like the first step is talking about it.

Speaker 2:

But the other thing about eating disorders that really trips me up is that you can, other people will evaluate your. If they know you have an eating disorder, they'll evaluate your recovery by the way that you look, and that really gives me a lot of anxiety. So I've had people say like if someone was struggling with an eating disorder and then they maybe gained weight, people will be like, oh good, she's recovered, and that kind of thing really stressed me out. Or if someone once struggled with an eating disorder and at a much later moment in time is in a thinner body, people become worried again, which could be true but also could not be true. Like you just can't really correlate somebody's their status, their eating, like how well they're doing on in terms of fighting their eating disorder, to what their bodies look like.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people recover from eating disorders and lose weight because eating. You know eating disorders can manifest in all different ways And so it's just very anxiety inducing to feel like once people know you have an eating disorder every time they see you. Potentially I mean it is judgmental, but it's in like a caring way, cause nobody wants their friends to have eating disorders. Like, everybody wants their friends to be recovered And so if you don't know a lot about eating disorders, it can be kind of comforting to be like oh, my friend doesn't look like she has an eating disorder anymore. That's nice. But it's very stressful for the person with the eating disorder. It's not the same as like if you struggle with other mental illnesses, where it's not as visible from the outside.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i was reading an article I didn't finish it this morning, but I think it was. Virginia Sol Smith newest newsletter was talking about is there a recovery, and I thought that was really interesting, because does it look different for different people? Like absolutely, but what does that even mean? Like, oh my gosh, i just totally even forgot. I don't think about food anymore, or you know, i think that's the interesting part I agree.

Speaker 2:

I mean, i once took a test online that was like do you have an eating disorder? And one of the things was like, do you sometimes eat when you're sad? And I'm like, yes, but like I don't really think everyone who sometimes eats when they're sad. I don't imagine I'll get to a place in my life where I never eat when I'm sad, or where I they were like do you ever exercise because you ate too much?

Speaker 2:

And it's like sometimes you just, if you want to exercise, cause you ate a lot or something, or you exercise a lot and then you want to eat a lot, like it just doesn't feel like food is so complicated and you eat food every single day. So I don't know. Like the idea of like to never have any kind of complexes about it, like I know that intuitive eating is real, i can't do, i haven't succeeded in doing it. I believe people when they say they can do it, but it seems really very it seems like you can. There's a huge spectrum between like someone, Yeah, like I think people can recover in the sense that they can improve a lot, but then the idea of like full recovery seems really, really tough.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and also cause, i know, had an eating disorder as undergrad, so I was 2021. And then again, at what? would I have been Late 40s, we'll just say. And that's certainly also really common too to be like I think I'm pretty good at it. And then it's like I certainly stood at a precipice. I remember exactly when it was, when I was like this slope doesn't look that slippery doesn't it Yeah?

Speaker 1:

It's like yeah, yeah. So I think that you know is an interesting piece as well, is you know? obviously you gotta look for your slippery slopes, but that they're you know, isn't necessarily a kind of and that's what like struck me in your article, that I was like I don't you know, all these people are like no good to go.

Speaker 1:

Or even someone had a comment that, oh my gosh, like my family is so food insecure, like we know, we couldn't have any disorders or something like that, which I was like. statistically, actually, people who are food insecure tend to have a lot of issues, And that is one of my. I grew up very poor And I went. I was just on vacation and I went somewhere And we were literally on a boat in Central America. I didn't have any snacks And I was all like I thought I brought a fruit bar. Yeah, buddy, have like a fruit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know like.

Speaker 1:

So I think it's that people just don't even know what an eating disorder is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think that they get like. I think that the most severe eating disorders are dramatized and or like I mean I don't even think they're drama Like in the eating disorders we see in the media are the most severe kind And those are very real. People definitely have those, but I think the more I don't even know if I should say more common, but another form of eating disorder which is someone who has really figured out how to make things look normal from the outside And I almost think like and I don't have like data or evidence on this I almost think that that's more likely for adults, because I think adults just kind of have their lives together more than like teenagers. So I think an adult is just a more competent person than a teenager and therefore would have a better if they had an eating disorder, is better at hiding it, just because they're better at a lot of thing. I don't know, that's sort of not scientific, but that's my theory.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think it is interesting because I will absolutely have people say things that really reflect an understanding that it is a very, very underweight young girl that has an eating disorder. And there's still not very many people talking about binge eating disorder. Because I'll have people, like in health coaching, explain their behaviors. That would they would meet the criteria for binge eating disorder. But that's equates to well, I was being so good throughout the day And then you know I have trouble at night, yeah, but I'm like, well, this is like kind of a bigger.

Speaker 1:

So I think there's so many people that don't recognize. and certainly now you know orthorexia, you know where people are just excessively eating clean, which was my issue. people, you know, don't even flinch of like when someone's like, oh my gosh, i would never eat. you know this or that People are like Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Good for you And it's like, even though and again back to your assessment piece that people are like.

Speaker 2:

Well, let me look at her.

Speaker 1:

Man she looks good, okay, well, obviously there's no problem.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, exactly Like you can very much be a healthy way. You can be overweight, you can be, you can have an agent sort of at any weight. Not a healthy way, like, yeah, medically healthy, it's different for everyone, but yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's an interesting. I was listening to an interview of the new Weight Watchers CEO And she was like Well, i mean we screen for eating disorders and basically saying like they're looking for people who are underweight, but 94% of people are not underweight. that have eating disorders. So I was like might want to check that screen.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, catching everyone. Well, let's dive into some of these questions. So what is your understanding of diet culture? I?

Speaker 2:

mean it's a culture of like, suggesting that there's a moral goodness to restricting your eating and to like being a certain weight. And I think that the new version of diet culture is like wellness culture, so the culture of telling people that they're going to be happier and healthier if they buy these expensive products that will lead to weight loss. I think my I have somewhat complicated feelings, because my I also have very negative feelings on the food industry and the kind of things that they put in the food, and I think that some of diet and wellness culture is about like the better parts of it. Maybe maybe not diet culture, but the better parts about wellness culture are educating people on stuff that's in their food that they don't know about, and then that can very quickly slide into orthorexia, where someone becomes so scared of what's in their food. And I think that if we had a food industry that was not just filling food with chemicals and we were and, like you, could have a little bit more faith in just the quality of food that you buy at the grocery store or the you buy at a restaurant, it would help people not be so obsessive.

Speaker 2:

And so I think that like, in some ways, i guess my when I say I have complicated feelings, it's because I do think diet culture is is bad, but I also think that, on some level, what it is attempting to fight which is the part of what is attempting to fight is this very corrupt food system. That's also bad. So I think that there is like something to suggesting that that people need to be careful about food, because what is in our food is can often be stuff that, like, people just don't have any information on. So I think that I guess I would say, though, that, overall, diet culture is like this idea that dieting is going to fix your life when, in reality, it's not even going to lead to weight loss. probably, statistically, most diets don't work And, even more importantly, it's not be like being thinner is not going to make you happier, so it is sort of a false promise.

Speaker 1:

Yeah absolutely, and I think it to your point about the food industry. I think that's where you know they're always like nuggets of truth. Yeah, because it's the same thing with wellness with like big pharma, because I would be dead without pharmaceuticals. I don't have a thyroid, so my body literally can't work without it, and I tried the naturally things and I felt like shit. So you know, i need like multiple different pharmaceuticals and the pharmaceutical industry like if you just look, at the opioid epidemic is like painfully corrupt.

Speaker 1:

And I think that you know having these two things because you know I was just traveling, so it was out of the country And it was very interesting looking at food. So it's embolies, like food embolies, because also tons of you know so different because they grow produce there, but tons, as we're driving along the highway, tons of little places where you could stop and get produce And but you know the way that our country is. It's like you know, in a lot of areas there's nowhere to get produce, there's nowhere to get healthy food. Also, produce isn't affordable for a lot of people. So it was kind of interesting looking at how they dealt with food because we I never saw one fast food place. Also, you know, interesting, but I think that is like part of the problem. Or you know Christy Harrison and her new book, the Wellness Trap, is talking about you know, the wellness industry and it gets propped up because people don't get good answers in our medical community.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes they're like I don't know, i don't know what's going on, and so people look for alternatives And I think that you know part of the issue with healthcare and pharma and food, people are like, well, i don't, you know, i don't really know what to do, and that's in. Some people, i think can survive it And it doesn't like affect them. And then other people certainly like myself, like I was like, oh, let me spiral out of control.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's you know. there's just absolutely a you know truth to these pieces And you know there's just such extremes of like Oh my gosh, you're gonna die if you eat this. And it's like you know what I had a elephant ear at the carnival like I'm gonna be okay, you know.

Speaker 2:

but it's so hard because having like nuanced conversations, sort of meeting in the middle, are very hard to find, and I find sometimes among people like talking about eating disorders, it can be very triggering to bring up that there's a lot of toxic stuff in food And I don't think that someone who is recovering from an eating disorder should be obsessive about that, or I really don't think. If it's, if it doesn't bother someone, i don't think that that needs to be someone's top concern, but it doesn't mean that that's not true. Basically, like it doesn't. Yeah, so it's. It is like a very it is difficult to have those kind of nuanced conversations, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that's because I do follow intuitive eating and and in all foods fit, and there's a bunch of stuff that I don't love eating, you know. Even you know, on my vacation, like I didn't eat a lot of meat because it was very slippery The meat And I was like but, I think on the you know extreme end of recovery, there are a lot of people that are like.

Speaker 1:

No, it's like well, i'm, yeah, i'm also. You know, i have to work around my slippery issues as well, like. So again, like that's the hard part, when you know it's like there's such an extreme stance because I can eat everything I want, but I also don't want to feel super tired after lunch or you know, don't want to have a heartburn because you know I eat too much at breakfast.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, And also, yeah, just like food does affect you physically. So like the idea of saying like, oh, people shouldn't be too stressed about vegetables. It's like you're going to feel your, if you have more fiber, your body's going to feel better. Like not, you know, not everyone's like it is. It is very hard Like I think that the biggest challenge for me is like I have a lot of digestive problems and I just need to like separate honestly, like food and even my body from my like self worth.

Speaker 2:

So to say, like it's okay if I actually have a somewhat restrictive diet maybe not okay forever, but okay for now. It's like. It's okay if it's like I am cutting something out because I'm having this stomach problem and I'm experimenting to see if doing this or that changes things. But like, what I need to do is like and this isn't to say this isn't general advice and you know people have to kind of find their own solution But like for me it's about saying like, okay, if I do this thing and it changes my weight either up or down, it doesn't have to. That doesn't change my perception of myself. You know, if I have to make a change to feel better physically and I lose weight I cannot like that doesn't mean I'm better and just kind of trying and saving the opposite direction, like so just kind of trying to say, like thinking of food as like a vehicle for making my body feel good or for like giving me energy which is what it is, but it has been, you know.

Speaker 2:

I mean it's been very hard for me obviously.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think digestive issues are so prevalent And then they completely intertwine with eating disorders too, because obviously you want to feel as good as possible and you don't want to feel like, okay, well, now I haven't pooped in four days or I feel like I'm going to put my pants right now, like all of these things in between And, and I have GERD, and so I do have to sort of manipulate my food around it Because, yes, can I eat, you know a lot for breakfast? I absolutely can, and I will have raging heartburn for sure. So I think it's like you know you have full permission And also you want to monitor, like, what you're eating according to how you feel.

Speaker 1:

And I think again, because it doesn't fall under like really crisp rules, then that can be very challenging Because people are like and I'm experienced as a health college forever like, well, just tell me what to do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's good. You know, I don't think that's where you want to be because you want to be, you know, listening, and even of like broccoli steamed versus uncooked broccoli like this one is making me way too gurgly. And this one is okay, you know, to be able to assess.

Speaker 1:

And I also think, like you know, having like a great eating disorder informed dietitian is helpful to walk you through that process, Because I know, certainly, like you know, crap places like beach body have like oh, it's a gut health program And it's like, oh, bro, no, like I'm not following a gut health program from the exercise lady who's not even certified in exercise Like and again. So then that becomes like these big scary fear mongering, like restrictive protocols.

Speaker 1:

And it's like that's not it, it's. It's tricky, totally, totally Well, tell me what your first memory or experience of diet culture was.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, so young.

Speaker 2:

I mean.

Speaker 2:

I remember feeling like insecure about my body when I was like in kindergarten I went to like an all girls school, So I feel like it was very heightened And it was like the 90s, which I don't know if this is true, but I feel like in culture everyone's like the 90s peak eating disorder or maybe like the early odds or something, or peak like obsession with fitness.

Speaker 2:

So I, yeah, definitely like, because I was not a thin kid, but I, yeah, i was in a culture with a lot of very thin children and adults and I was not thin And like. But I do remember like I think it really started in earnest in like fourth grade because I had a teacher who was extremely fat phobic And like we did a lot of stuff around the food pyramid And we had to be like tracking how will we fit in with the food pyramid. And I don't know if that was like just her or like the curriculum, but like it wasn't just learning about the food pyramid, it was like every day you had to like report back on whether you hit in kindergarten.

Speaker 1:

No, this was fourth grade, because then you're nine years old, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And like I just I was a very type A child like I always wanted to get good grades. So as soon as I learned about the food pyramid and as soon as it became like a goal to like hit every box and whatever it was like, from then on I was obsessed with never string outside the food pyramid. And I do remember one time this teacher like she was telling us that we was talking about food And she's like sometimes foods could be at the intersection of different things on the food pyramid. Like you think something is just a bread if it's like a muffin, but then it has like a lot of oil in it, so it's also a fat. And then she was like like, for example, i saw another teacher who had a muffin in a bag and the muffin was so oily that it like had stained the bag.

Speaker 2:

And I was like why? like no, at the time I was like riveted. And then we were like what teacher? and she's like I'm not going to tell you, which I think just reinforce the idea that this is like very embarrassing. And in retrospect I'm like that's just like a person with a muffin Like well, i understand. And she like created this like big shame thing around, like how embarrassing it was And also kind of suggesting that like this woman didn't realize that muffins also had oil in them, like it was just really she just did that a lot. Like she was often like saying like oh, you don't realize that this food is bad for you, but it really is. Yeah, she was like yeah, i was in fourth grade I don't know what happened to her, but she was kind of scary in a lot of ways. But I definitely was like very. I feel like that was the year that I got very into, like I got to follow the food pyramid.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, gosh. well, it is interesting how and people have certainly I've seen on Instagram so many different horror stories about their kids coming home with different you know assignments, or you know tracking, or in people.

Speaker 1:

there are some people that promote hears how to opt your kid out of that So they don't have to have those conversations But you know, a teacher could virtually know nothing about nutrition but also any kind of like informed nuance conversation, and they bring their own diet culture lens to the conversation of like yes, clearly, if I'm talking about so-and-so's oily muffin and protecting her privacy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the point is like I think it's like when people do that, like I don't think they realize that what they're doing is suggesting that the thing is shameful, like it would have been more normal. She was like Mrs D had a muffin and this is, and then it would have been about the muffin, as, instead of it being like this teacher had a horrible secret, which is that she was eating a muffin. It's like so, yeah, i don't know.

Speaker 1:

I really, as a muffin eater, am so tired of muffins being maligned in this way. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think muffins also just like are what they are. Like. I think that people's criticism is always like should muffins be a breakfast food? And I'm like a muffin is a muffin, like, you can eat it whenever you want it. Like it's not gonna I think it's like you expect it to be something other than it is, because people ate it for breakfast Like it is what it is. Eat it when you want it you know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is interesting. I started some people at my gym. we will go get breakfast, which it used to be called coffee, But then when Heather came on the scene.

Speaker 1:

It became breakfast because nobody would eat anything And they're like well, for our birthdays we'll get something. And I was like Bish, i just worked out for an hour like what's to eat, and then I would get a muffin and they just again back to the heartburn So I could eat half of it before I get heartburn And then. So this guy started eating my other half And it has been a conversation of like a constant, like debunking of diet culture. He's like so do you just like eat a salad later instead, like on the days you have a muffin?

Speaker 1:

And I'm like no, i have a muffin and then move on with my life And I don't think about how I'm going to compensate for this half muffin later. But it's really interesting like digging deeper into conversations, since I talk about this stuff a lot of like. I mean just like the fear that arises, like from some foods, and I'm just like you could just make a smiley face on that muffin like he's your pal. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. Yeah Well, what ways do you feel like diet culture has been the most damaging for you?

Speaker 2:

I think, like in the, in the way that it has seeped into my sense of self worth. Maybe that's too broad, because maybe that's like the whole point of diet culture, but I actually I think I can weirdly, in a way, just come to peace with like looking whatever way I look, like I don't always wear makeup And I don't. I'm not really having like the anxiety about aging that I thought I would, and I, you know, don't always brush my hair. I don't really care about the way that I dress. I don't think that it is actually all that important to me what my body looks like, and I think I can go days without really like looking in the mirror. Event, i am a performer, so there's that aspect, but times when I'm not performing because I do stand up, but times when I'm not performing, like I don't think that my physical appearance super, it matters to me, i mean it matters to everyone, but I don't think it has the effect on my life that you would think from my like obsession with food, i guess. So I think that what really it is is like I just have this sense of like what is good And what is bad, and so like I'm like I am good if I do these things And I'm bad if I do these things, as opposed to like I look good if I do these things And I look bad, so it's like almost well, i guess I'd say it's definitely worse, just the sense that like I'm just, i am so type A and like just wanting to succeed, and this can be another area in which I succeed.

Speaker 2:

This is a very strange example, but I read a book recently that's about how men are suffering and and society's not really talking about it.

Speaker 2:

It's a really good book, not related to new sources, but they said that like one thing that is really helps people have value is when they can derive value from many different parts of their lives. So when women are have jobs and are also mothers, if they feel like they're failing as mothers, they can succeed professionally. And one of the reasons that men have been lagging recently is because they don't, if they're not playing a big role as fathers, that when they're bad at their jobs, they just feel bad about themselves overall. And I thought about that in the context of like when I feel bad about something else in my life, like if I feel bad about a professional failure or something that I wanted it and get I can be like okay, well, my weight is, is like what I wanted to be, and that's so toxic to like. Be kind of like depending on that as like a form of self-esteem when other things aren't working out. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it's easy because I certainly I mean, i was straight size for most of my life And then in my mid 40s, when I started having thyroid issues, my weight changed And I had no idea how much I buoyed myself off of my weight, my body, my looks, because if that, you know, it just becomes like sort of a background, you know, like, well, you know you look pretty good And it's like you have nothing else going on for yourself, heather, and and that was you know to certainly add then, as my weight changed, like you know, massive therapy of like who am I Like? what am I about? Am I a good person? Am I, you know, and I think so much of that again like that's such a diet culture piece that it's so ingrained of, like you know, almost like a little thumbs up or a thumbs down, what do we give Jenny today? Yeah, that is interesting about men, though.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it was taught. I only thought of eating, sort of just because I was thinking of myself. Like the book doesn't cover that at all, but it like the idea that, like people need to have multiple identities so that they, if one is going badly, you could just revert to the other identity. And I think, like I don't think that's what people actually need. I think it's like, if that's what people have, that's what they depend on, like I think what people probably actually need is like a core sense of self that and like nothing external can rattle that sense of self. But in the absence of that, i think it's like having multiple things to like feel good about, which is a very depressing idea.

Speaker 1:

I think it is interesting because I think it's very. You know that's how I grew up with. You know being pretty was like very high on the list for my mother. So that's constant reinforcement. And you know it's certainly easy to find yourself. And as an adult of like, i don't know who I am, I don't know what I've got going on, i don't know like you know any of the deeper stuff because you know our daily lives just don't even focus on that stuff very much. And it's certainly easy once you've got your like. You know your bag of tricks of whatever your coping mechanisms are, and if obsessing about food is one of those.

Speaker 2:

Yeah totally.

Speaker 1:

It's going to go back to this too. What sources of diet culture do you feel are the most persistent and influential?

Speaker 2:

Right now, instagram, my Instagram explore page, is crazy. I don't even look at it, but it's well. I do look at it, but then I like click out of it. It is entirely either before and after photos. Or like this is my body from other angles, which I think is supposed to be body positive. because it's like look, you see someone who looks like this, but they might actually look like that, but I still just don't want it. Or it's like even people being like I gained weight but my body looks like this because I lifted weights and so now I'm healthier.

Speaker 2:

And it's like I think I just don't want any of this And I don't know why I have it, because I don't think that I've searched things on Instagram to suggest it. It's like it almost feels like they got way too in my head. Or like potentially, when I was writing that article for Jezebel, like I was looking up eating disorder content on Twitter but not on Instagram And I'm wondering if they bought my Twitter data. Like but I just hate it. Like I it's, it's my it's. Everything on my explore page is so crazy And that, honestly, i don't even think. Like that stuff feels so removed for me. It's that almost more just. It doesn't make me like feel like I'm falling into diet culture. It makes me feel like I need to like get off the internet.

Speaker 2:

I think what is more insidious is like I'm now.

Speaker 2:

I'm in my 30s, i'm I have a lot of single friends, i'm in a relationship, but it's relatively new, and I think that the and we are like I get jealous of Gen Z because I feel like they're more progressive than my friends.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of this conversation about like okay, we really need to be clinging to our appearance at this age.

Speaker 2:

If we're, if we're not married, like we really need to be like, keep keeping it tight in a lot of different areas, but like this like fear, like now we're competing against younger women And I don't feel like I'm competing against younger women And like I don't know, and it's it's not so much like anything anyone's saying to me, it's like what people are saying about themselves.

Speaker 2:

But it becomes so prevalent, this fear of like oh, i can't, i need a, i can't allow myself, go until I get married, or something which like also is, in my opinion, a pretty outdated thing, and I think that kind of idea honestly is like a relic of a time before it was easy to get divorced Cause it like marriage is not like you still not that you have to keep your body in any specific condition to get married, but you can't get married and then change everything about yourself or something Like it, which it feels like it's kind of like the implication there, but like it's definitely, yeah, that sort of like this pressure that did not exist in our twenties to like continue to look good, i think is pretty like insidious.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think Instagram, cause I have. Well, the same thing will happen on my search page, even though I will go and I'll be like whatever, uh, unfollower you know that.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to see this kind of stuff. And then still, um, cause, i had somebody asked me yesterday I was teaching him I'm doing a webinar and exercise, like in the corporate wellness realm. And somebody's like, well, cause, i was like you know, basically like Buddha before and afters, because most of time people don't stay the way, blah, blah, blah. And then somebody asked me like a clarifying question of like but what's realistic, how much time should I expect until I get to my after? And I was like, yeah, like there's just so much that I don't regularly see. And then when I do see it, like you, you're like what the fuck is this Like?

Speaker 1:

I think it's really because even in trying to have like a social media presence and you know my master's in exercise science, like that is part of coaching I do I cannot figure out a way to comfortably do any pictures in the gym, because it's like, well, this is silly. Like why would I ever take a picture of my? like let me put the phone here. here's me doing some push-ups, okay, and some people do it and like more power to them. I just I feel very goofy and I also feel like is this helpful, you know, for people to because, again, it's like I should really have a picture of my dad, who's a tall, lean guy. You know, my sons are tall, lean guys of like this is kind of what my family looks, like everybody. This is not because I did some push-ups, you know. I think it's like such a weird thing that there's so much body stuff on Instagram and just like your point of like.

Speaker 1:

Here's what I look like when I'm slouching yeah, like okay, yeah, yeah, all right yeah you know, and also, like you know, co-opting. You know, like body positivity is a movement for people in larger bodies and like now it's like somebody who's got a little bit of weight of like, look at, look at my role.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I also, like the people doing that, are still, i think, doing it because they know that they fall into the category of too menchally attractive in a lot of ways, like it does I don't know it just like it feels like if you're a tiny step outside of, like the perfect image of conventional attractive and then you start using your body as like a, like the, an example of the body positivity movement, that doesn't feel quite that's, i don't know. It doesn't feel inspiring to me. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't consider that a marginalized identity that is being denied housing, employment, transportation. So, and you know it's hard, because was it hard for that person to go from? you know, nothing was there to. This is what I look like slouching now absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, people don't need to do all their therapy online. it's like she can go talk or that person. That person could be any donor can talk to a therapist about being upset about it, but yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, and I think then that puts out this kind of like more normalized, like I don't know, there's just a lot that I don't think is helpful.

Speaker 2:

That was one of the things that was tough for me writing the article is like I think that when people want to keep quiet about their eating disorders, a lot of it comes from a place of like I don't think this is good for other people to hear and a lot of it is not good for other people to hear.

Speaker 2:

So, like what I think is more helpful, rather than like any kind of focus on what someone's body looks like or someone's weight or their habits, is like an acknowledgement of the struggle.

Speaker 2:

Basically just to say like I am struggling with this and so if you're struggling with this, you're not the only one, because I think there's so much shame around it, but I don't think it. I think it's really tough. Also if someone posts, if someone is has anxiety because their body has changed, and they post a photo and they still kind of look what falls under the standards of conventionally attractive and then other people are like oh, don't worry about it, you're still this or that, and it's like that person could really be struggling on like a mental level. So it's not really about like them posting the photo wasn't helpful, those comments aren't helpful, and like probably talking about their appearance in general is not helpful, and what would be more helpful is if they could talk about just the fact that they're struggling with food right now and and having that conversation removed from their appearances, basically, yeah, because I think that like also ties into misconceptions about eating disorders yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah well, what messages helped you become aware of diet cultures impact on you?

Speaker 2:

I mean it was for sure like the stuff for my childhood, like and I think the media has honestly gotten a lot more inclusive since I was a child. But like the characters who were like the fat kids on tv shows were like very straight size, like I remembered to grassy, like the girl who it's supposed to be. Did you watch the grassy?

Speaker 2:

okay, i'm 62 so, um, there were. There've been many different generations of the grassy, but one of them was like terry. She was so cute, i can't. I don't know who the actress is. To be honest, she wasn't. None of the kids were good actresses but or actors.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, it's supposed to be like a big thing that like this like popular boy likes her because she's like not really skinny, like it's like a big plot line but terry's like very, like, very conventionally attractive, i would say. I don't even remember what she looks like, but I remember like rewatching that like a couple years ago and being like this was insane. So I think like that kind of thing of like like the yeah, like in the sex in the city movie, where it's like a huge deal that like Samantha like gained weight in her relationship but she like pretty much looks exactly the same, like I don't know, it's just like. I think like that kind of messaging on, like any kind of slight aberration from like very skinny is an issue and and the thing to like laugh at, like it's yeah.

Speaker 1:

I know exactly the scene you're talking about because she had been inordinately then, throughout the whole series and then and that it was like, everybody was like yeah and and that they brought it off to her.

Speaker 2:

It's like you would never bring that up to a friend, like you know, like yeah, it's so crazy you know, yeah, i think that's.

Speaker 1:

I mean certainly all of that stuff and certainly like rewatching things sometimes, like you know when you go back, you're like oh, but I think that, certainly for people in larger bodies like I, can't imagine what it'd be like to grow up and it's like well, the villain is in a larger body. You know the goofy sidekick is in a larger body and if you know, there was like a love interest it was. I watched a whole show and I can't remember. So this model died and she came back.

Speaker 2:

I watched that show, dr.

Speaker 1:

Adiva, yeah, i watched. I watched the whole thing, all the seasons and especially in the beginning. There's so many like ludicrous things because, again, like she really wasn't in a very large, yeah and everybody's just like oh my gosh this, you know, and I'm like yeah

Speaker 2:

and I just I don't want to suggest that the media has like gotten a million times better. I think it's. I think there is more options. There are more options if you want to find like body positive shows, but there are still. I watched one like a couple years ago that was like the girl who like had her mouth wired shut and then like got lost a lot of weight and then like got revenge on everybody. I can't remember what it was. It was like it was a horrible show, but I, yeah, yeah, i do remember Dr Adiva, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I enjoyed it as a show absolutely. Yeah, you know all of the anti-fat comments, yeah, but yeah, i think that again all so many of those things are normalized. And then for a kid, because I have seen like many publishing houses trying to do a better job of having like a more diverse bodies and children's books because, like, sometimes like the only diverse body is kind of the joke or talking about Peppa Pig's dad is fat and he needs to exercise and I'm like why would this need to be in a show for toddlers?

Speaker 2:

yeah, i don't understand. I think that was very I had a big effect on me as a like child. Teenager was like that's very skinny female protagonist who like ate constantly, like Gilmore girls or like anything with Sandra Bullock, and that really led me to feel like I was like doing something wrong, because I was like, okay, i should be skinnier and it should be really easy, like that kind of thing. And I feel like like did you ever see Gone Girl or read Gone Girl there? yeah, then part about like the cool girl. Like the cool yeah, i mean I love Gone Girl, but like the cool girl is like effortlessly thin but like never diet, so like that kind of really stuck with me as like a teenager which is like not only is it bad to not be thin, it's bad to be like trying to be thin, so like, but it kind of just felt like a this like insane, like double bind yeah, absolutely where's the win?

Speaker 1:

and that I did like it like that when she left Ben, like that was like a big part of her running away was eating whatever she want, like oh, she's having twizzlers now yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, welcome to freedom, sister. You're gonna eat twizzlers now that you're not? married, yeah, yeah well, what shifts have you made to free yourself from diet culture?

Speaker 2:

that's a great question. I mean, i do a lot of therapy. I think, like trying to give myself and this is like maybe gonna come off as like a step one but trying to free myself from being hard on myself for falling into the traps of diet culture, i think is like a big thing and just being like it is like such a tall order to say like I'm gonna love my body every day And so like being like you know what, it's okay If I look in the mirror and I'm like I hate the way my body looks today. Just I'm just gonna go on with my day and not get hung up on feeling that way And just say like it's okay to feel that way And like so that kind of like. It's almost like I think I'm maybe in the acknowledgement stage of like this is the effect that diet culture has had on me And it's okay that I have this effect because that's what it was designed to do. I'm not a failure because I like fell into the traps of it. I am also like in terms of what I actually do for my physical health is probably like the way that I physically treat my body is very good relative to how it's been in other years. So I think my like specific behaviors are much improved. I don't drink anymore, which I quit drinking about four years ago. At first my food related issues got so much worse because my brain was needed something to focus on, and then kind of all parts of my life got better and that has helped. So I am less worried now about my habits but I can be too rigid with them. So that's like it's kind of its next step.

Speaker 2:

But I think like like a big thing I'm trying to do is like appreciate my body for its functionality, So appreciate that I have the energy to get through the day, which I didn't always have, especially when I was drinking. I have the energy to be productive. I'm on like the right medications for myself And so I'm able to kind of be highly functional. I can be active. I love to walk, so anytime I can, sometimes I'll walk like very long distances instead of taking the subway, which is so much more pleasant, and like just being grateful that I can do that.

Speaker 2:

So that sort of yeah, like a mix of like accepting that like it's okay that I got so in meshed in diet culture and also just trying to appreciate that like my body works. I've been taking good care of it for at least the last like year. It has been like a good year. So even on days when I mentally I know that I'm in the eating sort of space, like I, it's okay and I can kind of like continue to make so progress. But also I think another big thing is like also accepting that maybe I'll never be like a hundred percent and kind of what we discussed at the beginning. I don't know what a hundred percent looks like And that it's like I'm going to just keep going on with my life. And you know, my life is not a waste just because I, even if I am stressed about food every single day at some point for the rest of my life, that doesn't mean my life is a waste. Like that's just one small, not small, but just one of many things in my life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, like when I think of, you know, kind of my slippery slopes are certainly falling into, you know, definitely the wellness trap, like I've really phrased it as like let's me being like an A plus student of like. Oh so you said I shouldn't eat this or that. Like for me, okay. I won't, Yeah, yeah yeah, certainly, and you know, kind of like not getting on myself from like, who is it you were listening to, and were they just a stone cold?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, you shouldn't have been listening to them.

Speaker 1:

But that really out of kind of also either desperation for health, desperation for belonging, desperation for acceptance, like these are the reasons that can contribute, certainly because it's so easy to see, especially on TV, if, like you're just watching, you know somebody who you know gained a little bit of weight get blasted by her friends or like, oh well, i don't want that. And I think that acceptance and belonging can be a big driver for a lot of people And if you like you said you're type A, then you're like okay.

Speaker 1:

I can do this, i'm nailing it, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And anytime you feel like you're failing to do something else, you're like I'll do this instead, like this is how I'll be productive Yeah, this.

Speaker 1:

I can do. Yeah, totally Yeah. Well, if you could recommend one thing for somebody to move away from diet culture today, what would you recommend?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, okay, that's so hard. I mean, like, obviously, social media is so, so toxic. At the same time, i think people form connections on social media that really help them. I think so, yeah, if there's a way to get to decrease your time on social media, definitely do that. I'm trying to think of, i can think of like a more specific piece of advice. I would like encourage people to try to be happy for the things that their bodies can do And, like I say, i'm an able body person.

Speaker 2:

I don't have serious health problems, so I it's easy for me to say that, but kind of regardless, your there are, your body is capable of doing things that improve your life, and it can do those things only because you feed it. So, trying to like, keep track, like what things are you grateful for your body for doing? Like if you're grateful that you can walk, if you're grateful that you can, you know, have good vision or have vision at all, like just to kind of appreciate that, like food is, is a way of of enabling your body to have the energy to do the things that you want it to do. So I think, like having gratitude for what your body can do is just so I feel like kind of like the cornerstone of of trying to move away from thinking of food as like an enemy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think in my second episode I know that that was her answer as well of, like you know, trying to focus instead of the out more of the function, and I think that can be certainly like not even it's not even like a great starting goal, but just of an every day, like oh, i did this, or like this stuff was heavy at.

Speaker 2:

Costco And I carried that Like yeah, yeah, that's great, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Stayed up past my bedtime.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, look at me?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, where can people find you to follow you in your work?

Speaker 2:

I'm Ginny Hogan underscore on Twitter and Instagram. You can find me there. I am mostly at Ginny with a G. Ginny with a G. I'm mostly a comedian, so I don't know if it's going to be the kind of content you want, but I post on a wide range of things, so I love. If you want to join, i'd love to have you. Yeah, and you can find all my writing at Ginny Hoganme. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you for being here. It was nice to chat with you.

Speaker 1:

And thanks for writing. I'm sure that you had a lot of feelings about doing that article, i'm assuming. Yeah, i was actually a bit. I'm glad I did it, yeah, but I think it's good because I think more people talking about it because there's somebody that's listening, that's like, oh OK. Yeah, totally, this is helpful to feel like maybe they're not so alone.

Speaker 2:

So I'm glad you wrote it. Thank you so much. Yeah, i'm glad you're doing this podcast. This is so great. All right, thanks, i'll take care.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the Air We Breathe podcast. I would love it if you would follow or subscribe to the pod. That way you'll get the newest episodes right when they come out. Also, please feel free to leave a five star review and let me know what you think about the podcast. Take care.