E31. Challenging Binary Thinking: Not Good or Bad with Registered Dietitian, Diabetes Care and Education Specialist Megrette Fletcher

Today on the podcast, I am joined by Megrette Fletcher, a registered dietitian who has worked as a diabetes care and education specialist for the past 30 years. 

Megrette’s many accomplishments include authoring many books about discovering mindful eating and is the co-founder of the Center for Mindful Eating. 

In this episode, we will discuss:

• The false narrative of diet culture and how it wants to keep you in the binary (good/bad, right/wrong, black/white, etc.).
• The research around diabetes that she has and is still currently working on.
• Sort our feelings into three categories rather than staying in the binary.

Megrette also shared a mindset shift to lessen the impact of diet culture.

Mindset shift:

• Listen to people with lived experiences and read books from those people to understand their experiences better.
• Find a sense of belonging to shift away from the binary. 

Resources:

• Eat What You Love, Love What You Eat with Diabetes: A Mindful Eating Program for Thriving with Prediabetes or Diabetes- Michelle May MD, Megrette Fletcher MEd RD CDE
• Together: The Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World- Vivek H Murthy M.D.
• AMA- Standards of Medical Care in Diabetes
• Megrette Fletcher’s Newsletter
• Megrette Fletcher’s Substack- Inclusive Diabetes Care
• The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together- Heather McGhee
• Hunger: A Memoir of (My) Body- Roxane Gay
• Weightless: Making Space for My Resilient Body and Soul- Evette Dionne
• https://www.inclusivediabetescare.com/
• Discover Mindful Eating Second Edition- Megrette Fletcher
• https://www.thecenterformindfuleating.org/
• https://belonging.berkeley.edu/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

All right. So today I'm very excited to have Megret Fletcher with us, and why don't you just go ahead and jump in and tell us all about yourself so?

Speaker 2: 0:11

I'm a registered dietitian, diabetes care and education specialist. I've been in the diabetes space now just about 30 years. I've been a dietitian a little bit longer than that and back in I wrote my first anti-diet book back in 1994. So really a lot. I've been in the space of non-dieting, which we now call weight inclusive care, for a bit and, yeah, I've written some more books since then and hopefully we'll get a chance to talk about the non-profit, the Center for Mind Fleeting that I help co-found.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Absolutely Well. What is it that made you really interested, that you wanted to focus your career on diabetes?

Speaker 2: 0:51

I started off as an eating disorder dietitian in a lock psychiatric unit and when I started my career we had about three months to work with our clients, and when the DRGs came about, the length of stay was reduced to about three days and I found myself basically starting IV nutrition or tube feedings for clients, and it really wasn't where I was. It just really didn't have any interest to me. So I was much more interested in relationship-based counseling and so I said well, two diabetes there, it's a chronic illness. I'll hang out with them for a while and I've loved it and never look back.

Speaker 1: 1:30

Wow, yeah, 30 years is quite a commitment, a bit, yeah. So what is it about diet culture that's making your eyes roll the hardest right now?

Speaker 2: 1:41

You know, this kind of question I thought and I really have been kind of chewing on it a little bit more. When I think about eye rolling, I think about kind of my present day self versus younger me, and so I would really say the thing is that I see the changes, the binary. I am very aware of the binary, how diet culture reinforces, energizes this good-bad narrative. I'm very aware of how. It is so black and white, it's so right or wrong, it's so binary and younger me loved the binary. Younger me was like, oh, I'm right, but present day me is like I don't know about that.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So the eye rolling is really looking at how my own journey and really understanding how much more comfortable I am kind of leaning into. Maybe that isn't exactly how life works, maybe that's just how I want life to work. And I think that that brings us to that idea of magical thinking and wishful thinking, and to me that's all really what diet culture is. Is this belief that once I YX, then my life will be great, and once I eat Y then my life will be great, and if I only do Z, then my life will be great. And again, it's this binary that is faulty. It is a false narrative and for myself I just I really can see how appealing that is. I want to help, so I love the false narrative. I love the idea that there's a right way to do things. It excites me because I could be right.

Speaker 2: 3:24

So now we're kind of getting into ego, but that desire to help isn't a bad thing. We just really have to recognize, I think, for ourselves, that we are looking at people. We are looking at health as a fixed thing, and health is dynamic, it's not fixed. And people are dynamic and they're not things, so they can't be fixed. So we have so many false narratives around diet culture. They're just so familiar, they are the air we breathe, at the water we swim in so we don't actually think to question them. And because they're so ego reinforcing I spend a lot of time becoming a dietitian. I spend a lot more time becoming a diabetes educator. I really want to be right. That's very ego reinforcing, so it kind of self feeding. And that leads us to the larger issue, which is these narratives these black and white, these binary narratives are just part of a larger conversation around depression.

Speaker 1: 4:29

So I certainly love that concept because I think that is what makes me so bananas, and especially in coaching or talking to someone, because you're trying to almost introduce gray and it's like in in brains, because I remember when it was introduced to me and my brain is like Beep boop, boop boop, like does not compute, I was like I don't even know what you're talking about and I think that certainly is like it's so ingrained. And then I feel like, because I've been in Health and Wellness for about 30 years as well, like because of especially scalable solutions, so large weight loss programs are something that we've got to make rules for this program to be able to sell it. So that has really, I feel like, highlighted the binary concepts as well, because I can't sell you something that says, Well, it depends, Like where's the solution there? Because then I'm not giving you the answer. So I think that kind of certainly the diet companies have pushed that like where else do you feel like that messaging is coming from?

Speaker 2: 5:43

Well, stepping back and just kind of feeding off your example a little bit more, which is it's the false view. We really have to see the false view and so for many of us who are kind of swimming in this water, it's hard for us to get out of it and to take that, you know, 5000 foot view. But if we turn around and we say that the false view is being fat is unhealthy, that's the false view. So being fat is unhealthy is a weight normative view. And I clarifying these terms because I want people who are listening, who are motivated to start maybe Google searching these things and start turning around saying, well, what is the research and where do I look it up? So we want to give people correct terminology.

Speaker 2: 6:25

So weight normative is this belief that being that is wrong, it's unhealthy, and so a weight inclusive approach is turning around saying, well, what happens if that lens or that view is not correct? And what would, how would we start looking at it differently? And it's a new field kind of coming in, though I feel like I've been in it for a long time and I'm sure you feel the same way. We're starting to recognize, wow, health is really, really complex and you know our surgeon general, the vet Murphy. He talks about loneliness and he is coming from a weight normative view and if you can get past the first maybe two chapters of his book, he's really talking about how loneliness is more detrimental to our health than our weight. It's more detrimental to our health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day that's a half a pack. So I really want to be very clear we have over identified the problems of weight and when we talk about over identification and hopefully we can unpack that a little bit more but Kristen Network on self compassion really talks about when we're not compassionate to ourselves we over identify. We believe that this one mistake is the reason why everything's falling apart. We believe that weight is the reason our health is all falling apart and yet the research is not supporting that. And using diabetes as an example, the American Diabetes Association released a statement saying that 50 to 60% what you to think about this 50 to 60% of all outcomes of diabetes are related to the social determinants of health.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Taking a step back and looking at that binary. Taking a step back and looking at that binary, all of a sudden we realize, wow, this is a really complicated, very tangled up problem with lots of factors and in research we call those, you know, confounding variables. But there's so many of them, it's not simple. The black and white is simple. I can get my head around that and that's why I like it, because I sound smart, and so it's so reinforcing to turn around saying no, no, the weight normative approach has to be correct. Because I can understand it and so I can sell it.

Speaker 2: 8:41

And I think you really identified one of the factors that are contributing to this false narrative, which is health a capitalistic product. And that's a question. And many countries have said no, our country has said yes. So you know these are larger conversations, that I don't want to appear like an economist, but I am very curious about what other countries do, because diabetes is in every part of the world. There is not a country, a nation, a continent that is not touched by diabetes. Which programs and systems are doing better or having fewer outcomes? What are we seeing? And so that's where I really like looking at diabetes, because I think it's looking at it from a global perspective, where some of these co-founding variables, you know, we can start teasing them out and start trying to understand them a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 9:33

That's really fascinating because I haven't really thought about that of looking at you know, because obviously other countries have it vastly different healthcare system than we do. Good for them, but fascinating to think about what it would be like to have something chronic disease like diabetes in an environment like that where you just go pick up your meds or you know like novel ideas like that there's some research that I get and participating in and Margaret Berman is the lead researcher there and we're looking at the moderators and mediators that are impacting diabetes prevention.

Speaker 2: 10:12

That's a that's a fancy term and I want to break it down a little bit more if I can. But basically, when we talk about research, we're trying to understand what is it that makes diabetes prevention work? So we've heard again that weight normative view oh, it's weight loss. So the question is well, can we test for them? Can we turn around and say was it really weight loss or is it the fact that you're eating different.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Was it really weight loss? Or is it the fact that you're in a group and you have social connection? Was it really weight loss? Or is the fact that you're exercising more? Was it really weight loss? Is it the fact that you have, you know, like healthcare and you're accessing healthcare? Really, what was it?

Speaker 2: 10:47

And so we ask and we look at research to turn around, say, did we differentiate? What actually caused that? And we look for, we test for these mediators and, long story short, we looked at over 7000 research articles up until 2019 and what we found was less than 1% and it actually wound up being about 100-ish articles. So from 7000 to about 100, 120-ish articles actually looked at that. So I want you to think about all the research that we see in diabetes and we went from 7000 to 100 and of those 100, basically we're looking at three studies. So when we look at all the research, is it really a lot of research when we just regurgitate the same opinions In diabetes care?

Speaker 2: 11:36

I'm really interested to turn around and say what really was the cause? And can you really say it was the change in your weight? Because when we look at it, over time the weight goes up, but we still see the benefits of physical activity. People's weight goes back up, but we still see the benefits of improved A1c. So what's going on there? And that curiosity? I think we could get more curious. To me, that would be awesome, because it allows us to say I don't know. And if I don't know, that's a good thing, it's okay that I don't know, but where could I learn and what questions could I ask?

Speaker 1: 12:14

Yeah, it feels like when you say curiosity, it feels completely opposed to the binary. If you're buying into the binary, you're like I don't even need to think about it. There it is. But I think the effort and energy to really ask a deeper question like is definitely a step that I can see and you know, and for myself certainly earlier in my career, like I loved face value this is a real okay good. Thank you, I jotted it down, it's tattooed on my arm and that we're done, you know. Moving on, think about other things. So who do you feel like benefits the most from the binary?

Speaker 2: 12:56

Well, I mean, my ego does for sure. So my ego, everyone's ego does. It allows us to say, with this, just hubris, that's almost comical, I know this will work, and so that that's really very problematic. So I would definitely say that when we talk about the binary, it's just it's our ego and that creates so many different problems. But I think ultimately the binary it is not actually allowing us to do two things, which so I write a newsletter as well, and in the newsletter I like to talk about there's some themes that I talk a lot about, but one is sorting, and I talk a lot about sorting, particularly in diabetes, because I think everyone's overwhelmed. And so when you're overwhelmed, like what can you do when you're overwhelmed? Well, you, you sort. But if we sort in two piles, we're going to get, you know, good or bad, right or wrong. So we're back in the binaries. We have to understand how to sort into three piles and normalizing, not no. So you know like, oh, this is helping me, probably treading water, this is hurting me, like just putting that middle group, you can't be in the binary anymore. So if we sort into three groups, that's awesome, like that's fantastic.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Now sorting also has this level of discernment, and discernment is different than sorting, and I feel like I'm a little bit like an English nerd right now. But but I want to just clarify because I, when I share it with my clients, they go, oh, and it feels like a like oh, my world got clearer. So when we sort, we're just trying to put them in categories, and when we discern, we're trying to figure out what's good, better, best, and they're not the same thing. I can put things in categories all I want, but it's not really helping me discern what's good, better, best. Now, if I'm in discernment, I'm not binary. I'm trying to turn around, say what's good, better, best for me, what's good, better, best for you, that's discernment, and so there's a distinction there that I just. I really appreciate when we have it, because for so many people they're just like no, I just have to be good and I go.

Speaker 2: 15:07

I think your inner teenager is going to come out with that wish. So I don't know about you. It wasn't my best time, so that I just feel like a child. When someone says to me, oh, you need to be good and I'm not a child, I have a lot of ambivalence to that request, that comment.

Speaker 1: 15:26

Yeah, absolutely, for I have an innately rebellious spirit, and so it does make me want to roll up my sleeves. Well, what do you think good is? Because here's what I'm going to tell. What do you feel like are the kind of major harms, and maybe some minor harms from the binary?

Speaker 2: 15:47

I really think that the probably the major harm that we can talk about is the cycle that this is creating. So the binary creates a cycle, it creates a view and you can't get out of it. So I would say that that's very harmful and when we think about our current society, which is it's a capitalistic society and it's feeding this binary view, it's almost like we have to. We have to see it as a false view and that's hard for people. So it's a major harm because we've built so many systems in place that make it seem like it's familiar and familiar. Is this funny experience that we don't notice something's wrong? I mean, it's so familiar, I can't be wrong. I've done this 100 times. How bad could it be? But yet familiar is like that siren song. So if we go back to Odysseus and that story of him being strapped to the mast where the sirens are singing and people who listen to it drive their ship onto the, onto the rocks, you know, and Odysseus straps himself to the mast where he can listen to the siren song, we have to recognize that this, this binary, is. It's familiar, it is like a siren song, but it's not leading us to good, better, best, it's not actually helping us. It's actually driving us into the rocks, which then fuels this cycle of oh well, that was bad and this would be better, like let's do this because that was bad and it's this binary. But to understand that it's a cycle and it's hard for people to see that cycle and because it takes effort, because it's challenging, a lot of people are like I don't really want to do it and I just, you know, there's a lot of harm there.

Speaker 2: 17:44

And there's an author, heather McGee. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her work, but she wrote the book the Sum of Us and I believe she's a lawyer, but she might be a PhD person. I'm not sure of her many accolades and talents and accomplishments, but she wrote this book called the Sum of Us, which really highlights this idea of a zero sum game. I don't know if you remember that one way back in, but for myself it was a little review. It was like, oh, I know what that means. And then I read her book and I went oh, I know what that means better, I understand what that means at a very different level, which was good.

Speaker 2: 18:20

But basically a zero sum game means we do things thinking it would help us but it actually hurts us. And she's talking about how all of our efforts and not all of them, but you know a lot of major efforts in our society are the zero sum game that we're trying to do, something that would help us but it winds up hurting us. And really the fuel what's fueling it is what I like to call the oppression handbook. And the oppression handbook is doesn't matter if it's driven because of fat phobia or racism or ableism, healthism, if we're afraid of, you know, gender or sex. It doesn't matter why we're trying to oppress someone we engage in and we create these systems that we think, oh, that's going to make it better, but it winds up just making it worse and it makes it worse for everybody. And she really writes a very compelling, detailed book that I would highly recommend to really help us take that step back and see the major harm, which is this binary view.

Speaker 1: 19:26

That's so interesting, and we always put all of the materials in the show notes. So we'll link all the resources you've talked about so far and I think that is so interesting because I do feel like we get on our little hamster wheels and we're doing all the things and thinking that we're doing something. But I think it's even more interesting that you're linking. It's not that you're thinking that you're doing something, you're actually hurting yourself in the meantime.

Speaker 2: 19:55

And that's hard. It's hard for me to own that as a healthcare provider. My self identity is that of you know, caring and concern. I mean my kids joke with me because you know they're all like I'm in Slytherin, I'm in, you know, gryffindor, you know, and they talk about the Harry Potter houses and they look at me and they go you are Hufflepuff and like, the sorting had no problem sorting. I was only Hufflepuff. I will only be in Hufflepuff. That's just what I do. I'm Hufflepuff all the way and and they just crack up because they're saying the sorting had struggled with me, because they're like, and it never struggled with you. So my identity is so wrapped up in being a helper. It can make me very blind to my privilege.

Speaker 1: 20:41

It can make me very blind to how I'm contributing to, like you said, these larger harms which you know is very problematic, yeah, and I think anybody that works in this field has certainly looked back and shook their head that, oh my gosh, I can't believe that I thought this or taught this or encouraged this.

Speaker 1: 21:02

And I have talked about the apology tour for making you count your almonds and all of these things that I really believed were helpful, and then, really like, once you step back, it's like, oh my gosh, I made you just as obsessed as I am Made you putting as much focus on these things when one. It's not helpful and it is harmful. I think that every practitioner and hopefully every practitioner does, come to a place where they see that. I definitely see a lot of people that feel, seem very confident in what they are doing, and I'm always I always say like I wish I had the confidence of a man standing in the grocery store talking about chemicals in the food. Just sure that harming all of us. Because I'm like, is it, you know? But there are a lot of follow up questions that they're like here it is nailed, it done, and that gets back to that discernment.

Speaker 2: 21:58

So we sort chemicals in the food are bad, non chemicals in the food are good. We're back to that binary. If we turn around, we say, well, it's good for me to eat, it's better for me to eat foods that are less chemicals, but it's best for me to eat foods that I can afford. You know, you can turn around and you can start looking at. We're trying to discern what's the right choice for me and I work with people that they really are struggling. Food prices are very high and I've spent a lot of time really going through and going to stores and really price checking and saying, hey, frozen foods are cheapest here. You know, paper goods are cheapest here. This is where you can buy dog and cat food. These are where you can get cleaning supplies.

Speaker 2: 22:45

It does make some assumptions that my clients have cars to get around, so I have to clarify that because if they don't have transportation, then you know we start looking at ordering online and we start looking at places where we can buy items on a major bus route and the state where I live in we don't have a public transportation outside of buses.

Speaker 2: 23:06

So just really becoming familiar, like what are the bus routes and how would someone move through these stores and how would they actually transport the food that they get? So it's really a lot of logistics, meaning you can't buy your frozen foods and then go buy your paper goods. So there's a lot of logistics there and I think we forget that when we say things like oh, chemicals and food are bad. We've made so many assumptions that everybody's food experience is just like mine. Everybody's food choices and their needs and their reasons why they choose foods are the same as mine. And that goes back to that hubris again of turning around saying what are the odds? That's true, just give me odds to bet on. I really think that the odds would be like one in a million, that that's true. One in a thousand, that that's true because we have so many different needs.

Speaker 1: 23:56

I love how holistic your approach is and I think really anybody that's worked one-on-one you start to realize. And until I worked one-on-one in health coaching and got out of fitness because everybody that was there for fitness had a certain amount of money, discretionary funds, that they could spend. So these things weren't issues transportation, affordability of food, and I think when I started working in environments where that was present, that was school for me and I was very lucky that people I worked with were patient. And because I did a lot of you know what, I'm going to look all this up and we'll talk about it when I see you again in two weeks to come back with just what you're talking, pricing and what is reasonable and to leave behind the fresh is best.

Speaker 1: 24:46

Fresh is not best for everyone. It might be preferred by many. But and even though I talk about you know my sons are college age and we've had a lot of fresh vegetables but they just struggle to make it work and it doesn't make sense for them because they'll forget it or just different how they are in the kitchen. So that money down the drain does nobody any good. But what if just had some frozen broccoli and then you can just get a little out as you need it, it's like works perfectly fine. So tell me I'm always interested in people are trying to change their behaviors. You know the mindset shifts and the skill set shifts. What do you believe, like our two things that people could do to kind of change their mindsets and then two for some skill sets.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Hmm, well, I think for myself, just listening to people with lived experience is really helpful. So the individuals that I'm very interested in are fat individuals with diabetes, so I'm very interested in listening to their experience. Or, you know, fat individuals that are managing health in a higher weight body. So I'm really interested in kind of what that's like. And you know, I got a lot out of reading Roxanne Gay's book hunger. I got a lot out of reading that Diane's book weightless. You know, I got a lot out of listening to and learning about and hearing from you know people who I think I know. But you know, when you give them the microphone you're like, oh yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. And I think, again, going back to Dr Murthy's book around loneliness, you know it was interesting how much, how connected I felt. I think that that's really the mind shift, is that when we can experience that sense of belonging, we move out of the binary. It's not right or wrong, good or bad, it's us, it's all of us. That is really what allows us to have that shift to belonging.

Speaker 2: 26:45

And the inclusive diabetes care which is the company that I own we're a professional education company. You know. It's founded under the pyramid, this inclusion pyramid that I created, and at the bottom of that pyramid is this idea of belonging and we need to belong. And people with diabetes need to feel like they belong. You know, fat people need to feel like they belong, queer people need to feel like they belong, people with just everybody. We just all need to feel like we belong. And what's interesting, you know, I mentioned the research and Dr Lauren Beach is one of the researchers I'm working with and her research, which is from the LGBTQIA community, talks about pride and how pride is antidote to shame. And when we think about pride it's because we belong. We belong. So we need that sense of belonging. But if it isn't easy to belong, we're not going to stay with it. And if we belong and it feels easy but I don't feel seen and heard, then I'm not going to be there. And we're hearing how oppression would. It mutes those who are having a higher or a bigger load to carry. So listening to people with lived experience really allows them to be seen and heard. And if we feel like we belong and it's not too hard and we're feeling seen and heard, but then we're judged, we're never going to get to wholesome self care. So when we think about kind of skills and mindset, part of this is really hitting home this idea that we need to look at what the basic needs of inclusion are.

Speaker 2: 28:24

And for my community people with diabetes, my community people with type two diabetes, my community fat people with type two diabetes, my community queer people, people with disabilities, people with economic strain, people who all of all of us, we all belong. I'm here, I'm standing in solidarity with people with diabetes because we belong. I'm touched by diabetes. I'm touched 100 different ways in my personal life by diabetes and I want those people, I want those experiences. When I develop diabetes I'm definitely from a family with diabetes I want to know that I belong.

Speaker 2: 29:06

And so, practicing this idea of coming alongside, not trying to get into that, oh, that's right or that's wrong, but how can I come alongside? That's really what allows us to belong. And if, as we turn around, we say, well, you can belong if you do X, y and Z, count the almonds, walk a 5k, wear a tracker, it's really not belonging. That's just another task. Conditional, yes, very conditional. Or you can belong as long as you're losing weight, very, you know. You can belong as long as you're taking your meds, you can belong as long as you're trying. We can just see like that's not belonging. That's just not belonging.

Speaker 2: 29:45

So really taking a step back and really turn around saying, am I really listening to what it's like to struggle and do I have the emotional capacity to listen to struggle?

Speaker 2: 29:58

And I think that that's one of the things that a lot of times we don't want to listen to first person narrative because it hurts us. It reminds us of the human condition, which is painful and it's hard to witness suffering. It's very hard. So we got to get a reps and we got to practice and a resource just to shout out around belonging is the Othering and Belonging Institute out of Berkeley, california. So I really have benefited tremendously from that organization and I try to promote it whenever I can. I think John Powell is. He's the director and I think he's brilliant, but he is surrounded by other brilliant people so I don't want to single him out. He would not want to be singled out, but just to recognize that that's a wonderful resource for healthcare professionals but also for any regular lay listener who says I'm not in healthcare but I really want this sense of belonging. You know, if I fact Murphy's book first two chapters have some weight centric verbiage. But the Othering and Belonging Institute, both are really excellent ways for us to lean into belonging.

Speaker 1: 31:04

That's so fascinating and it like because when you're talking about belonging, it feels warm. Just listening to talk about it like feels so nice. And I think about, especially like working in corporate wellness. Many times it's just a land of Othering. It is. This is a problem, your problem, what are you going to do about your problem? And the belonging is, if you're meeting the correct metrics, whatever those may be, then welcome.

Speaker 1: 31:39

And I used to see that a lot when I was doing health coaching full time. They love to have in person events and I always said and this is kind of at the beginning of webinars 2011, I think 12. And I was like we are missing a lot of people because a lot of people don't want to come here because it's full of people running 10ks, it's full of thin people. Besides, the fact you've got folding chairs like this environment doesn't create any belonging for anybody, except for who is in this room. And I think I'm excited to check out that resource you shared, because I think that everybody needs more warm fuzzies and to feel like oh look, I mean I just love that concept. Well, what messaging do you think is helpful for the younger generations to hear now?

Speaker 2: 32:31

Yeah, again, I think that this idea that we belong I think is really important. You know, my daughters are adults and I think they really get the weight inclusive messaging. But again, I think that the sense of how do we belong, how can we connect there is a lot of disconnection and so just putting down, creating space for us to connect, and one of the things that I think that a lot of younger people are wanting to hear is I do belong and how can I create those spaces where belonging can occur? And again, I look at the younger generation and, because we've been doing this for a while, I think they get it much faster than we do. I think they get inclusion much faster.

Speaker 2: 33:20

So I'm not 100% sure they need something I think maybe we could learn from, so maybe we could flop it around. What can we learn from the younger generation? And I would say that that's probably just connecting with them and really recognizing that the information can flow both ways and I have really benefited from my kids pushing back and saying, yeah, mom, your view of topic, yeah, a little outdated, and I'm like oh, oh casp, and then of course you know, I read about it and I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you're right, it was updated.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Thanks, I'll change the heads up.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Yes, as the mother of two, gen Zers, I love I look at their friendships and what they are unbothered by and that I see, then societies, different corners, dark corners of society are falling all over themselves to vilify different things. And I just love that. My kids, they mind their own business so much more. They just, you know, if I ever ask them questions about different things, they're like I don't know, like it's not my business, I've never asked them. Or, you know, like it's really. It is so just fresh to see their takes and I absolutely have the same experiences where I'll say something and they're like that's not it. Yeah, I wouldn't say it like that. I'm like oh, okay, okay, how would you say it? I am ready to say it that way.

Speaker 2: 34:53

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We have a family member that's transitioning their gender and my kids are just like, yeah, and I'm like, oh okay, you know, I've taken two classes, I just need to learn how can I support my family member? And they're just like to them it's fine and oh okay, yeah, just again, it's. I think the the information we think about. There's a lot of information that younger generations can help us with. So amen to the blessings.

Speaker 1: 35:30

Absolutely Well. Are there any questions that you wish I had asked, Hmm?

Speaker 2: 35:37

I think we covered a lot, so probably not any burning questions that I have.

Speaker 1: 35:45

Maybe there's some that that you'll think of later. Maybe that's what I do, yeah for sure 3 am is my best thinking time to come up with things of like oh that's, that's what it all clicks for you, so let's run through our closing questions. So if you didn't have this career, what do you think you would want to do?

Speaker 2: 36:07

Well, I didn't have this career in the beginning. So I wanted to be a physiological neuropsychologist, which means that you look at the brain and emotional changes after brain injury. And I was in a lovely track program and two of us were going to go on to be invited to the PhD program. I, unfortunately, was number seven out of eight. So my major professor said what's plan B? So then I became a dietitian and my major professor was like good choice. So I feel like I tried a different. You know, I was very hopeful but didn't work out.

Speaker 2: 36:43

And I think younger me looks back and says I think anything mechanical, I'm very interested in engineering. So you know, if I wasn't, if I didn't have the ability to be an engineer, like a civil engineer is kind of where I would go. You know, I think maybe a mechanic or something that's working in the engineering field, because I'm just fascinated by big things. You know, working for Caterpillar would just be like a dream come true. You know, driving a giant excavator. We, we had some wood logged and they let me drive up in the skitter and I asked them how much the skitter cost and they told me. I said I don't think I should be driving that If I break it I can't fix it, and they're like it's a skitter, you can't break it. I'm like, oh, trust me, I don't know about that. So, but I do love machinery and big equipment, big stuff. I just I find the scale just so fascinating that people can invent this stuff and it's enormous.

Speaker 1: 37:40

It's so interesting I have yet to ask anybody that question that I wasn't like. I didn't see that coming Skitter driver, that's exactly.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a friend, friend of the families. He said well, you know you could be a woodsman. I said, yeah, he goes if you like dealing with broken diesel lines in freezing weather, and I went no, not so much.

Speaker 1: 38:09

What about inside jobs? So yeah, that's just a clear choice. Fascinating, interesting. What is your proudest accomplishment? Well, I think we talked about kids.

Speaker 2: 38:23

So, aside with that, because I feel like that's a pretty normal thing to talk about, I really do am proud of my work in the mindful eating space. So in 2005, I wrote my first book Discover Mindful Eating in that genre. And then in 2006, I co-founded the Center for Mindful Eating. And the Center for Mindful Eating continues today. It's an international organization and I really am very proud of how they are really helping people understand how to bring the present moment to food and eating. So how can we eat and taste and enjoy that experience? How can we do that? And what are the things that get in the way of us being in the present moment when we're eating? And most of the time it's our thoughts, but again, it's a practice, and it's a practice based in meta or compassion. And so again we're bringing back that idea of self-compassion. And you know the joke about self-compassion if it doesn't work, consider increasing the dose, so just more. If you're finding like, well, you know, I tried compassion once and it didn't work, just keep up in the dose until you get to that level where self-compassion really works. And I feel like right now, in our current society, where we're having a lot of voices. There's a lot of discussions coming up. We really, we really do need some compassion and I think mindfulness is a great way to do it.

Speaker 2: 39:48

I did think about something that does me, now that we've talked so, a little pet peeve that I have is when people say, when you're trying to explain something that's difficult or almost ineffable, they go, yeah, that doesn't make sense. And I go, yeah, this idea, this belief that every single utterance out of my mouth is perfectly crafted, coherent narrative. I have a pet peeve about that. I feel like that's an unreasonable expectation. Yeah, I'd like to quote Mark Twain. I would have wrote less, but I ran out of time. You just have to recognize this whole idea of we are all creating a coherent narrative and it does take time and we practice.

Speaker 2: 40:30

You know, just talking with you is helping me say, oh, you know, where was I clear, where could I be clearer? We're practicing, we're trying to understand what sticks and what doesn't, and this there's a belief. You know, there's a very dismissive quality right now in our society that says, oh, heather, didn't make sense, I don't have to listen to her. Oh, figure, didn't make sense, I don't have to listen to her. It's very dismissive and it's like no, no, you can participate, you can get curious. You could say, oh, how would I say that better? What information would I want added? Or what research? You know where is that coming from. But again that curiosity comes back, instead of expecting it to be just presented to us in a big, you know neatly packaged, bright bow, so I don't have to do any kind of cognitive lifting.

Speaker 1: 41:14

That actually is a peeve. I have a peeve there I get that and I see it so often and I think that that's like when I go speak like, I can sometimes see people like turn it off. They're like nope, didn't like that. I was like wait, I've got 40 more minutes, come on, this gets better. They're like nope, don't want to hear it, don't want to take it in. So what is your spiciest opinion that people disagree with?

Speaker 2: 41:40

So for myself. I just want to give a little context and a little background. So we know from the Human G-Mone project that race does not exist. So race is a construct, it's not a biological fact. So the spice and I would love to get traction and movement on this is when we talk about identifying risk factors for diabetes that we remove that race element from that questionnaire. So when the American Diabetes Association right now has identified race as a risk factor for diabetes and I feel that that's an outdated belief, it's racism, it's oppression, that's the risk factor, it's not race. And so that's my spice. And anyone who wants to join me in talking with the American Diabetes Association, I'm willing, I'd be very polite, but there's just no reason for us to have race as a risk factor. It is racism, it is oppression.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Wow, that's. I could see why some people are like no, thank you, because they don't want to talk about oppression or that any of these things are actually real and happening. That it's more because I guess when they're saying it's race, are they saying like for some genetic reason, that it's happening in people of color, or do they say they just say Like it's a risk factor?

Speaker 2: 43:03

Race. It's a risk factor and so if we're getting into culture, we could turn around and say culture. So if you're of maybe, chinese or Asian culture, we could put the word culture in there. But I don't think it's that.

Speaker 1: 43:17

So tell everybody where they can find you. You've obviously got some great works out there.

Speaker 2: 43:25

So the Inclusive Diabetes Care is a continuing education company and we have programs that people can listen to and that company and I abbreviated as IDC. The IDC also has a newsletter which I write a lot about those topics the familiar belonging, inclusion, discernment, weight inclusive diabetes care. We have that and for the listeners in that same newsletter. So I use Substack. We also have the no weight loss required and that's a newsletter. It's free. People can support my work so you're welcome to purchase it but it is free and that is just really conversations for the consumer around weight inclusive care for people with or at risk of diabetes. And yeah, hopefully that starts us having conversations that are interesting and informative and helps us shift that mindset so we can start turning around saying how do I get out of that binary? How can I start seeing more opportunities?

Speaker 1: 44:25

And then to find the center for mindful eating.

Speaker 2: 44:29

Just Google the Center for Mindful Eating. It's a 403b non-profit, international non-profit. They do have resources in both English and Spanish so for all Spanish speaking people, please note you can come. It's really focused. It's had a beautiful shift and I really hats off to the current board. They're doing some amazing work, including defining mindful eating, so researchers can do a better job of researching it and getting some of their guidelines around that as well. And for those people who are not familiar with mindful eating or think of it as a diet, it really is part of that weight inclusive approach. It does use metta, or compassion and self-compassion, as the foundation by which we enter and return to the present moment, but the Center for Mindful Eating is near and dear to my heart. So the Center for Mindful Eating dot org.

Speaker 1: 45:19

Great Well, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your body of work so much and it's been really nice getting to listen to you talk about it.

Speaker 2: 45:31

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me All right, take care.