The Startup Defense
The Startup Defense explores the intersection of commercial technology and defense innovation. Callye Keen (Kform) talks with expert guests about the latest needs and trends in the defense industry and how startup companies are driving innovation and change. From concept to field, The Startup Defense covers artificial intelligence, cybersecurity, mission computing, autonomous systems, and the manufacturing necessary to make technology real.
The Startup Defense
Innovation to Implementation, Defense Market Presence, and Community Power with Art Trevethan
Callye Keen engages in an educational conversation with Art Trevethan, unraveling the intricate layers of defense innovation, entrepreneurship, and the intersection of the private sector with the military. Trevethan, equipped with years of experience and insights, demystifies the path of innovations from conception to the hands of warfighters, emphasizing the pivotal role of collaboration, understanding, and actionable solutions in this dynamic ecosystem.
Topic Highlights:
[00:00] - Introducing Art Trevethan
Callye Keen introduces Art Trevethan, Partner at RIIS Technologies, an organization that offers performance ready data science and artificial intelligence.
[05:25] - Navigating the Valley of Death
Art illuminates the hurdles faced by innovations in transcending the infamous “valley of death.” He underscores the need for a plan and experienced individuals to expedite the journey of prototypes from obscurity to implementation.
[07:08] - The Startups’ Stint with the Military
Callye Keen highlights the recurring challenge of innovation implementation in the DOD. He pinpoints gaps between idea inception, sales, and establishing a viable business, stressing that achieving a program of record isn't the panacea many believe it to be.
[10:02] - The Dual-Use Dilemma
Trevethan advocates for a dual-use approach, warning against the government being the sole customer. He shares insights from his entrepreneurial journey and emphasizes the unpredictability and fickle nature of federal contracts.
[14:02] - Barriers to Innovation in DOD
Callye points out the inherent challenge faced by radical innovations in finding their footing within the DOD, attributed to specific problems lacking analogous solutions in the commercial market.
[19:08] - The Tribe Concept of Collaboration
Art elaborates on the "tribe" concept, a converging point for various defense stakeholders. He envisions a nexus where startups, primes, warfighters, military leadership, and acquisition professionals collaboratively forge solutions.
Parting Thought:
"We are in a great power competition...and it's a fairly pacing competition that we need to get our innovations out and move them quickly." - Art Trevethan. This statement encapsulates the urgency and imperative nature of innovation in defense, illuminating the pressing need for speed and efficiency in this era of global competitiveness.
Callye Keen - Kform
https://kform.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/callyekeen/
https://youtube.com/@kforminc
https://twitter.com/CallyeKeen
Art Trevethan - RIIS Technologies
Medium - https://medium.com/@ygthb
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/arttrevethan/
Email - art@RIIS.TECH or Art.Trevethan@gmail.com
Phone - 614-579-7227
About Art:
As Partner at RIIS Technologies, Art leverages his technical proficiency and entrepreneurial insight to advance the culture of innovation. His team is consistently updated on market and technology trends, seeking opportunities to infuse these insights into the ecosystem of solution providers who may not have previously partnered with the military or federal government. Formerly serving the DOD Innovation community as Entrepreneur in Residence within the U.S. Army's modernization division - Army Futures Command > Army Applications Laboratory > Corporate Ventures - Art Trevethan is an entrepreneurial pioneer deeply involved in the startup and innovation landscape.
the government can cancel a contract, can enter into or exit at a whim, but when the contracts are coming in it's nice mailbox money. It helps keep the lights on. But I'm not going to base my entire company on the whims of the federal government because they are fit.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Startup Defense. My name is Callie Keene. Today I have Art Trevathen on. He is the DOD Innovation Zealot. He's the Don Quixote Self-described. He's a man of many things, so was an entrepreneur at residence with AAL. He's doing very interesting things with innovation and community at Reastec. Before we get started, art, what are you passionate about right now?
Speaker 1:I'm really passionate about moving out of this phase of innovation, which was very raw, raw, very exciting for the DOD to get involved in, and now moving towards the phase of implementation. It's really what we need to do. I'm not saying we should stop making things or stop coming up with ideas, but we really need to integrate into our psyche. How is this going to be used and how do we move it down the road so that it can?
Speaker 2:I have a lot of friends that they call that innovation theater. It's innovation for innovation's sake. I think that was a necessary bridge to just get people involved in the concept of being involved. Yes, it was performative, yes, but now we're kind of moving into the next realm. I know that you have a program or kind of a philosophy in a program called Innovation Schoolhouse, which is similar to programs that I've seen here, but I'd like to learn more about it. It kind of takes that, hey, you're interested in this, let's go beyond performative, let's actually implement something and connect people together. I think that really feeds into a lot of the other things that you've done or that you're doing right now. Can we talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 1:Sure, in the military, specifically within some of the special forces ranks, you have this concept of a schoolhouse. If you go to a schoolhouse, guaranteed you're going to come back with dirt under your nails. You're going to have eaten some dirt. You're going to experience the bank. If it's a survival schoolhouse, okay, you're going to go out. You're going to survive in the woods. If it's cold weather, you're going to go up to Alaska. You're going to experience it firsthand. And you're going to learn by doing. There are many innovation programs in the federal government, dod and specific, where we're providing war fighters with some knowledge, some experience on hey, this is how you do things, but it's just that it's knowledge driven from books, driven from presentations. There's not the down and the dirt, you haven't gotten your fingernails dirty. What we propose and what we're doing with this is we're setting up opportunities for teams to be built across the entire profile of innovation, from concept all the way through to let's build an acquisition plan, let's build a procurement plan, let's build a sustainment and maintenance plan for this item, because these are all things that actually have to happen for you to break out of the R&D side, the research and development. A lot of times you'll hear this referred to as RDT&E in terms of the federal budget, or 6.1 through 6.4 for those who actually look at the line items in the federal budget, but those are really restrictive. You are allowed to try something, develop something, but I can't go out to the force and say, okay, we're going to put one in every soldier's hands because we're not allowed to cure on that side. The idea would be how do we bridge things from the beginning, from the R&D side, over to what's referred to as A&S, and that's acquisitions and sustainment? Within our program, working with Duke University, we're building out a multi-month program where soldiers themselves get immersed in this, with the help of small business, with the help of primes, with the help of acquisitions professionals, to build the plan for how do we move through each of these phases.
Speaker 1:The big thing that people usually talk about is the Valley of Death, and there's kind of a misnomer there. There's not one Valley of Death. There's 50 valleys of death, depending upon the type of technology that you're working with. Some of those valleys of death are am I able to operate in contested environment? Some of them are how do I get my next server contract? Others are how do I move on to actual procurement or get written into the budget, which is Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Do I just get a required and I say just, it's a big process, but do I get a requirement created then now I partner with a prime or somebody who's already got an, a cat, one program To be able to be included in that. So there are many different valleys.
Speaker 1:The problem, I think the most smaller companies and even some large ones who have not worked with the government before, what they run into is a lack of knowledge on what the paths are Through the Valley.
Speaker 1:Right, don't just jump it, walk through it. That can be done in an expedient way If you have a plan and you have knowledgeable people who are involved in creating that procurement. Plan, that Authority to operate, plan the full of acquisition and where should you go? We're trying to bring all of those people together to work as it's an overused term but a tiger team to work on a project over time to take either a priority, a problem or or prototype and move it out of the Indiana Jones warehouse sitting out in Arizona that has boxed up prototypes like crazy. Right, if it's something that's valuable, okay, the reason it didn't get to the end is because somebody didn't know how to navigate. So we're building a hands-on program with best practices, best resources To help those Prototypes, to help those problems go from being an annoyance to being something that's actually in the warfighters hands and helps them on a Day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:I always wonder how many times Somebody has to create something, create a prototype, a science fair project, demo. How many times does the military, or do I see at large hey for that innovation to happen before it actually goes into implementation, as I think that the same problems get solved multiple times and it's really the lack of the entrepreneur or that group's ability to then take it and a little bit of this blame it lays on both sides right to take it across the valley of death. I Just talked to Andrew Glenn, who's another, you know, in your orbit, a al orbit, to talk about. There isn't the one valley of death. It's not about just getting a phase one, sbir and then we're good. It's like there's pretty good gap between the phase two and even if we're looking at SBIR as our funding route, there's pretty low percentage outcome of commercialization into phase three or you know, an ATO for somebody to, you know, to go through that process. It's a more robust process than outside of it. So the look at this is at each of these stages to go from.
Speaker 2:I got a demo, I got a purchase. That's not really the goal. I've seen you talk about this before Online. We chatted quickly about this before the call Everybody's obsessed with I want to get an SBIR. It's SBIR a season right now, so I kind of have it on the brain and apologize, but you know, and then it'll be about getting a demo or getting, like some you know, some research dollars. In a couple weeks, hopefully we'll have a budget right and then people will be talking about using our DNA money.
Speaker 2:That's not really the goal, right? The goal is to build a business and to deliver innovation to the modern warfighter. Right, solve a real problem. And there's a huge gap, or multiple gaps, in between Having a cool idea, even making a sale, or I would say even getting program of record, and then turning that into a viable business. There's a pretty big gap in between. That's like the grill, right, that's what everyone thinks. If I get program of record, all the billion dollar company, I'll get invited to all the parties what not? But this not Really the case, right?
Speaker 1:Well, as a kid who grew up in the Reagan era a little bit, a little bit older, a little bit more gray hair you know we all remember the stories of golden toilet seats and five thousand dollar hammers. Let's be very realistic here. A Government contract for the DoD is not the holy grail, and if you're counting on that to be your holy grail, good luck to you. But we are in a budget constrained environment. We're not spending Thousands of dollars on things that we can get for a nickel. We're being judicious in the way that we use money and that's the right thing to do, so that we're not being wasteful. But when you look at a capability, not every capability goes to every soldier. So when you're in that first level the RTD and E-M funds, like I said, six one through six, four those are not procurement You're gonna make, depending upon what it is for test and evaluation, ten. Can you build a business on making ten of what you make? And the answer is usually no and you find very much the same thing.
Speaker 1:A lot of people will approach soft, the special forces branches and say, hey, we want to make something for you. It's really cool and they're all for that. It's a great testing platform, but it's only a testing platform. There's a very small percentage of things that jump from soft to big A army or big A Air Force. You know they're not the pathway that you might think. So, when you're developing your product, absolutely have a focus on what is the dual use. Dual use is a catchphrase. Yes, we want people to have other sources of revenue. The reason for that is the federal government is a bad first and worse, only customer.
Speaker 2:I literally just talked about this. I want to hear your take on this because I am the advocate for what you're saying, because I work with startups and I love it. Please, sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 1:So very often in some of my other companies. So I come up from being a startup guy for 35 years before I went to work for the army and turned around and said, okay, I'm going to learn about this Right, got to know everybody. The processes for purchasing are written in front. It's not like going to your local insurance company or otherwise to say I have a great database program that you can use and they say, okay, on the merits of it. It looks good, we'll move down the road.
Speaker 1:The government is not using its own money. It's using yours in my month and has a responsibility to ensure that it passes all of the wickets. Now, when I say it's written in fraud, the reason that you're getting very regular action reports, the reason that dollars can only be spent in a certain way, is because back in history somebody used it inappropriately and there are bad actors out there, including some of them, who are actively engaged with us in economic warfare. We need to ensure and as a small business you need to ensure that your suppliers are clean, that the people who are negotiating your contracts are clean and that you adhere to the performance levels you adhere towards. You said you're going to make something, you make it and you make it at the quality that the government needs it in order to perform the task at hand, because otherwise, number one, you're liable not to get another contract. But, number two, we wasted money on that when we could have been putting it towards something else the government because of all these wickets, it is harder to do business with the federal government.
Speaker 1:I have often, as a small business person, established a government section of the small business and tend to work that with one or two people. We don't count on that money. The government can cancel a contract, can enter into or exit at a whim, but when the contracts are coming in it's nice mailbox money. It helps keep the lights on. But I'm not going to base my entire company on the whims of the federal government because they are fickle.
Speaker 1:A new administration comes in, a new senator honestly, new leadership within the military. One was the last time that you saw a colonel come in and 100% support what the previous colonel was doing. It's not how you build a reputation. It creates gates that you need to get through. Get your contracts and do them, but treat them like mailbox money. I wouldn't count on it. I mean, we're coming up on probably a CR at the end of this week, which means no new contracts nor no new starts. I should say it's going to create some concern amongst those people who are looking to the DOD as their primary source. I always tell people develop for both sources. Look at commercial industry as a great partner in helping you get to that phase where you are maintaining regular government contract.
Speaker 2:It's definitely the challenge to overcome. It's why you see a lot of very difficult innovation will have a hard time in DOD because when we start to solve very specific problems, there's no direct valuable analog in the commercial market. That's why, you see, missile systems are only developed by primes that can support that activity. You're not going to see massive innovation from very small companies on systems of systems. Nobody is going to out-compete and make a new destroyer. It's going to be an incremental improvement or it's going to be a very large capital investment by a large prime.
Speaker 2:You think of fighter jet. The same way, Lockheed's going to make this thing. There's a reason why Lockheed's going to make it. They've got the money they can afford. For a delay.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to do that ever. I might make a little piece of a piece that goes in there and I'm going to be really excited about it because I think that it's interesting, necessary and cool. But yeah, if I'm relying on something rare earth, let me say exquisite systems, if I want to develop that I think of this as a layered strategy approach as well is I need to make less exquisite things and something that's easier to purchase to fill in the gaps. But while I'm jumping through SBIRs or while I'm chasing some CSO or OTA possibility, chasing RD&E money. It doesn't seem like that's the solve.
Speaker 2:But if I have things that are a little bit more commonly churning or I'm going for like a fensive equivalent of my product, I'll pick on our partners that make like type one encryptors. There's a very small section of people that are even capable from a paperwork standpoint of developing a new type one encryptor. It's very difficult to go through the process. There's very bespoke technology that's involved. But like to make a fensive equivalent or CFFC equivalent of an encryption platform like there's a huge angle to that pyramid of utilization. You know I might not be able to win a no compete forever contract with it, but it's something that I can be. In the mix and the conversations, the mix changes on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:Five years ago actually probably 10 years ago you was said, okay, commercial rocketry. Right, there wasn't the focus on space that we have right now and so nobody would have gotten in to compete with the lockheeds, the rands and otherwise in terms of, hey, we've got a potential power source for the Gimler or for another rocket based environment. There are two startups in Texas right now that combining rapid advancing solid rocket fuel, 3D printing that's completely safe outside the rocket, that can be transported and that can be built cheaper, faster, better, that are now competing. So when we say never, don't ever, say never, never because you don't know what other Enabling technologies are going to show up on the field that all of a sudden might make you a player in that particular field. And Rocketry is one of the exquisite ones. Right, that has always been. You know the reason we call them a rocket science because there's smart people in the world.
Speaker 2:Cube sats small sats are similar in the same space. Right is 20 years ago. If I said, hey, I'm gonna have a satellite start up 10 years ago you'd be like that's interesting. But Five years ago there were literally kids putting up their own Cube sats and you can get a kit for it. Now you can build your own Cube sat as a regular civilian and you can join clubs and you can build your own Cube sats and there's lots of startups that are in building Leo satellite systems. It always changes and there's a lot of enablement. That's happening in technology right now across hardware, software flooded more community To make it so you can implement those ideas and get them out. So, yeah, never count out A market or an idea that you have, I kind of. What lead this into that direction is it's hard for people to break in you. You mentioned a couple of the reasons why it's difficult. We have lots of acronyms. I'm in manufacturing as well is only beaten by do d with the acronym soup right.
Speaker 1:A bill where they come up on a regular basis.
Speaker 2:I was at a speaking engagement last weekend and this for a thing that I'm arguably a smear and the probably a national expert, and I'm talking to a group of people that my group of people and they're throwing out these acronyms. I gotta get online and figure out what, what this thing is, because, yeah, we're making them up all the time. It's great, that's like a soft barrier, but there are some hardware barriers that you mentioned and to me, the best way to kind of break those valleys of death or to pursue dual use or to figure out how to just get into the market and learn Is to meet other people are best partners, are really innovative scientists that have almost no interest in running a business and they're like really big prime. Some of the biggest cyber companies or tech companies who are innovation might just Kind of a company that it takes this village of different intellectual property sources national labs, universities, big company small companies, like former users of veterans need knowers, things like that. I mean it takes this group and you have this tribe concept.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I unfortunately missed a local version of this. I'm sure that, since you know I'm in Washington DC area, you're in another hotbed or up and coming hotbed in Austin, but I'm sure you have another event here in Washington DC, but I'm I'm like 110% behind this concept. So I want to talk about this and how that community can be an enabler for the startups or entrepreneurs let's talk about what that community is.
Speaker 1:You're in defense manufacturing, so you're probably a member of NBI, which is the national defense industrial association. There are other groups, like death defense entrepreneurs forum and otherwise, and very often these groups are defined by what you do. We said that there needs to be a place where the deaths of the world, combined with the NDA, is combined with the venture capital groups and the primes, because we need to be focused on what our outcome is, and our outcome is the advancement of the warfighter. What we've done is we're looking for places of aggregation where you already have a number of the defense people showing up, whether they're there natively or the coming in for a conference what have you? And we are throwing an event that typically is about three hours in length and in that time frame, hey, the bars open, there's food running around. I want people from the entire spectrum of what represents the acquisition channel the startups, the primes, the war fighters, the leadership within the military and do the acquisition professional all of them together have a conversation. You talk about breaking in. People don't break in To the fats. They get invited and they're invited in because somebody had a conversation with them and said that's interesting. That's something I'd like to pursue. Typically it's not A general officers, not the three stars being carted around the startup event and saying, yeah, that's great, give my office a call, because they're not as close to the problem. The people who actually own the problems and actually on the process are the P E O S, the project managers there, the people who are running programs. They need these capabilities and the way that you get to meet them is you show up at networking events and you get to know them and Playing give first.
Speaker 1:You say you know what are the problems that you have. How can we solve that? And I'm not a person who likes to just point out problems. I like to bring solutions with me. When I do discover a problem doesn't mean that I'm right. By the way, I'm perfectly happy. No, ego being the guy who gets told. No, that's not the right idea for us to go forward. I will support whatever the right idea is, as long as we're not just talking about a problem and we're actually moving to solutions.
Speaker 1:So when we hold these events, we have all these right people in the room who are also somewhat self-selected by being doers. They're the kind of people who want to take action and have that propensity towards I'm gonna jump first. I'm gonna try this. Maybe it's the ask forgiveness instead of permission type of mentality to Go out and start doing the thing and looking at how do I solve this problem? And if you're in the room and You're a solver who's got that?
Speaker 1:But you don't have scale. Meeting the guy who Works for a prime or works for a large manufacturing industry who can give you scale. Meeting the person who is the acquisitions Professional, who's working on a similar problem and learning about what the process is. Meeting the program managers, the guvies and the civilian people and oh yeah, it's gonna take me money to get there. So we've got VCs in the room. You've kind of brought together this ecosystem that can be self supportive and give you SMEs in Each individual field you may need in order to move down the line. And we look at that with our Innovation schoolhouse, as this is where we get those professionals in and we create benefits for them to do it. If you only ever get benefit out of coming to our tribe events, I'm thrilled because that means that we've made the system better, because now we have people talking to each other. Once they're talking to each other. Let's find a way to take action together and move towards those solutions.
Speaker 2:You've been an entrepreneur startup guy. You went over into Into a al and was see if I get this right. You were the entrepreneur in residence and at a l or a Entrepreneur in the residence and then you came out of that. Now you're a community leader, kind of like a LinkedIn social media Character as well, I'd say. I see you pop up everywhere You're on my feed. How has that experience over time? How's that informed where we are right now? Because you kind of do have that tip-to-tail Experience and I feel like you are an advocate or a zealot for doD. You're putting out a lot of information there.
Speaker 1:I have a long career as an entrepreneur, starting companies and financing them and Going broke in the process or making a little money in the process. That's part of the entrepreneur's journey. I was very lucky to be selected to be the person who came in as an entrepreneur in residence for Army Futures Command and Army applications lab, because it gave me a view of the other side of the equation. It is not one side's failure. Certainly, there are things that we can point to at the government where we say, oh, this is difficult, this is a problem, but at the same side, not understanding their market is a problem for the startups or even for some of the primes, and understanding where that is Is stacked in your favor or against you. There has to be some mutual understanding in order for this to be effective, and this is not something that I feel that I've created overnight.
Speaker 1:I've been networking my whole career and if there are various strengths and fields that I have connections in that I like, pull up and bring them in, but at the same time, applying those skills to Meeting people and understanding who they really are, because I actually do care.
Speaker 1:I want people to be able to succeed in what they're doing and then Offering to give first, so that you do build that network based on trust, because one thing to know you, it's another thing to trust you for the right answer or for the right advice. And Building up that trust through offering to give first, through not having ego on it, allows us to build an Effective network for getting things done. It shouldn't just be a network to say I have X number of LinkedIn or Facebook connections or whatever else. It's not about social media. It's about the impact that you can have and how you move the conversation forward. Saying yes or a thumbs up is one thing, but then sitting down and actually thinking about it and writing something is a whole other aspect of Establishing that credibility so that you can be a trusted resource.
Speaker 1:There is like a whole network of these trusted resources. I'm one of many, and there's plenty of people who are a lot smarter than me, who are out there writing great things, and I will offer them support. I'll give them a phone call. I will have a conversation with them, better understand their position, especially if I don't agree with it. I'm not going to challenge it, but I'm gonna ask why do you think that way? And these conversations, conversations drive the need for? Because our need is based in the fact that we are in a great power competition. You know we've got China and Russia and For, whether you consider it better or worse, russia is not the Superpower that we once thought it was. However, you know, something happens to cornered rats. They get a lot meaner. So I don't necessarily Look at the current situation as being a hey, we don't have to worry about them yet. Now it's cornered rat and we got to be really careful about that.
Speaker 1:But with China, with Korea, with various other locations, we are in a competition, and it's a fairly acing competition that we need to get our innovations out and move them quickly, and we're learning things from the conflicts that we're in. We're learning things from the conflicts that others are in as far as. What are the new tactics? What are the new ways of doing things? We don't have the privileges bad word for this but we don't have the privilege the the chinese government has saying okay, we're nationalizing you, you're not gonna work on our problem? Small companies have free will free will of their founders to pursue the problems that they see is necessary. As a zealot for dv innovation, part of my job, part of my mission, is to convince companies that it's worth working for the speak. Even if you don't make money on it is worth working on it because it preserves everything else that you do, and that's a really important factor that I think needs to Be built into the conversation that's a lot to think about.
Speaker 2:Art. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show is great to get to know you a little bit more, see all the things that you're working on. What is the best way for people to Reach out and get involved in the different solutions that you're offering, the things that you're involved in right now?
Speaker 1:a hundred percent. Absolutely, we are flying this plane is. We're building it because we see the need for it. We need to move fast.
Speaker 1:I would recommend defense dash tribe dot com is where you can sign up for and be alerted to events that are coming up, where we're putting people together in the room the others. If you have more questions for me or wanna have additional conversations Always happy to have those I can be reached at art at Reese are I I s dot tech tch. I can be reached at that at any time and I also do myself as well as many others. We do a lot of writing on medium and some of the longer form things. I've been told by some people who are in social media that I actually write too long, but I'm not Writing for views on writing for opinions. I want people to read the thing. So I do have a blog on medium that I contribute to every week or so just putting up new ideas, and I'd love to get feedback on those and love to help out anybody who's actually looking to advance the defense industrial base and help us build out for the future.
Speaker 2:Absolutely thank you so much. My name is Cali Kean and this has been the start of defense.
