Disarming Covert Abusers with Emotional Intelligence

We have spoken extensively about the overt abuser- the screamer, the bully, even the psychopath (remember- it has been estimated that 25% of CEOs are psychopathic- makes so much more sense!).  What about the covert abuser?
The aggressor that plays victim.
The low-key schemer.
The saboteur.
According to Psychology Today, the abuse from these muted narcissistic bandits is no less harmful than the full-on assault of their puffed-up psychopathic counterparts.  We felt it worthy to place a spotlight on the subject and send these passive-aggressive parasites scrambling for the darkness in which they reside.
Ok, dramatic, but you so is the impact from these individuals. They defend and disarm, cheer and then scathe, sympathize and then stab.  They sap the strength of Samson himself- but there is a way to protect yourself- even thrive.
Emotional intelligence!
We will discuss how a high EQ is the best weapon against these- and other- psychological abusers in the workplace and beyond.

Psychology Today- Covert Abuse

PEACE- New e-course from legal powerhouse and former guest Jessica Childress!

Uncover Covert Abuse- The Mend Project

Emotional Intelligence- Your Gateway to Dealing with Toxicity in the Workplace- Toxic Tearoom collaboration!

The Color of Emotional Intelligence- Amazing book by author, therapist and former guest Farah Harris (Amazon link- no affiliate)

Indonesian Tribe Evolves- WOW

Spill your tea with us! Send your stories, love letters, hate mail, whatever suits your fancy to us at theteabag@toxictearoom.com

Catch more insight on our blog- and see some fun recommendations as well! toxictearoom.com/blog

Transcript

>> Roberta: 0:01

The Toxic Tea Room podcast is for entertainment purposes only, though we do hope you get inspired. Neither the Toxic tea Room nor its parent, that one, Booth Productions, LLC, is responsible for the statements or opinions of its guests, submissions, or content derived from publicly available sources. Content should not be interpreted as targeting specific companies, organizations, or individuals. The Toxic Tea Room podcast and that one, Booth Productions, LLC, are not responsible for any actions taken by individuals as a result of any content produced on this podcast. That's all on you, buddy. Listeners are encouraged to vet any recommendations with certified professional personnel. For more information on our disclaimer and to read our blog with fun things all about, visit our website at www.toxictea.com. hey Stephanie, I was beginning to worry Roberta like I didn't see you doing your happy dance at first.

>> Stella: 1:25

I brought it back. Yeah, you brought it back.

>> Roberta: 1:27

You got it.

>> Stella: 1:28

So I have to start with an apology. Okay, see, for those that are listening, there are times when I know our recordings sound better than others.

>> Roberta: 1:41

Oh goodness.

>> Stella: 1:42

I'm hoping that we sound good today. I will be moving into a different recording area soon, which means when I have to work remotely and not be in the same studio as Stella, I will have a better environment versus the cavernous room that I was recording in previously. Those things can be taken care of post production to minimize the impact of my voice sounding like it's echoing in a cathedral. The room is not quite that large. However, the piece that drives our producer crazy, the most crazy because it can't be fixed, is when I am speaking and a little pop sound happens. It happens because the little ball of foam at the end of my mic and Stella knows. She knows because she's heard this. I can't find it. It fell off. I can't find it. So I am trying to hold the microphone at a reasonable enough distance to where you don't hear the popping, but you can still hear me because if I put it too far away like this, you can't hear me. So I'm going to apologize in advance if I sound suboptimal because it can't get fixed. And for our wonderful producer who is hearing this post production, I'm sorry, I don't know where it is. I will fix it for the next recording.

>> Roberta: 3:26

I'm so glad that you started with that because I also want to apologize in hearing myself back. I talk extremely slow and I am so annoyed with the way that I sound that I am going to recommend that you put the speed on like 1.5 or two two x so that you can get through what the hell I'm actually saying.

>> Stella: 3:53

But then I sound like this, but that's okay. The other thing that we are often coached upon at that one booth productions, what we are often coached upon is our energy level fluctuating.

>> Roberta: 4:11

Right.

>> Stella: 4:11

So there are times where we start off really high energy, and our voices are what it is, and it's exciting. And then there are times where, well, now it's a little bit like this, which in post production means if they boost that part, then the booming happens on the other party, and it's happened to both Stella and I. So we're going to focus today on making this an enjoyable experience, not only for the value of the information we'll share, but hopefully in the quality of the production we provide. We're really trying to make this a class. This is not some b class recording. This is a class content, a class recording. So I want to start there. And we also want to get a few business items out of the way. so, yeah, let's do it.

>> Roberta: 5:08

Let's jump in.

>> Stella: 5:09

Yeah. So you haven't seen us for a minute. Seen us. You haven't seen us yet, honestly. We're going to focus on. It's in our agenda, to do a live podcast. We're looking at how best to do that if we're going to do that through LinkedIn live. But not everyone's on LinkedIn. Do we do a YouTube thing? So we're still. We want to do it. So you will see us, and then you'll be like, okay, why was the rush about that? And that's fine, that's okay. But, in the meantime, we did do a live podcast. we just. No one was on video, but, we did a live, episode on LinkedIn with the zero toxic workplace team. and that was a global event. They are in West Africa. We're here in the eastern time zone in the United States. we had a guest with us, Kondrad Daniels, ah, president of HJI supply chain solutions, and we had a great discussion about emotional intelligence. that was recorded, but we could not take that recording and give it to you through this particular podcast format. But we will link that LinkedIn platform, ah, recording in the show notes so that you can hear it for yourselves. that was exciting for us.

>> Roberta: 6:28

Yeah, it was fun.

>> Stella: 6:30

It was fun. now a couple of plugs. Jessica Childress, who you might remember, as probably the most, forgive me, badass person we've had from a legal standpoint. Now, I say that not to misalign. Mary Marbach, who has been amazing. or Mayer Nassar, who has been incredible. You're all amazing attorneys and incredible talent. And Jessica is in that league and just crazy talented. We're thrilled to announce that she has developed a teachable course with a corresponding ebook. That course is entitled peace leaving a toxic workplace on your own terms.

>> Roberta: 7:15

That's great.

>> Stella: 7:16

We will have a link to that course in the show notes. again, peace leaving a toxic workplace on your own terms. Some of the topics that are in there. it's an amazing course. I'm really happy to be associated with it. We were thrilled to have Jessica on, this podcast, and we'll have to bring her back at some point as well. and, yes, emerge. I've had a couple people ask, when's your book coming out? Soon. Not the kind of soon you tell your kids, like, when are we going to great America? Soon, which could be end of summer. Like, not. Not that nebulous, but it's getting edited. And if anyone out there has been in that process. Editing is critical to a solid product. And I need to have my editor finish, and then I get to agree or disagree on what's been edited. and then we'll get it published again. It will be an ebook, that will be downloadable, followed almost immediately thereafter by an audible, which you can listen if you don't get enough of this voice, this voice right here that talks to you about all things toxic workplace. And, Stella, did you have anything else?

>> Roberta: 8:23

Yes. thanks, Roberta, for all those great things. one thing I wanted to say is I really appreciate that there has been a sort of surge of listenership. If listenership is a word, it is a word. And we're just so grateful that after, you know, a year plus of doing this, that we still are reaching a lot of different people from all types of backgrounds and especially all over the world. we do. We do this for even the one person that might stand to gain from any of the things that we are talking about. I know it's sometimes not easy or desirable to listen to negative things, but we always try to change or address the negative and make it into a positive with everything we put out. So. And we try to make it fun and obviously entertaining. but we definitely think these issues are real. And as we announced previously, it's not just in the workplace, it is throughout your entire life. It is good to bring these things out into the open. And, you know, Roberta, that thing you posted about, it happened to me. Hashtag, it happened to me, seems, to have been getting some traction, and we're just happy to let people be heard. keeping people quiet, as we've referred to many, many times, is part of a manipulator's game. You know, the traumatic person or the traumatizer. I mean, they want you to stay quiet. So the more we can bring this out into the open, the more we're hoping to just explain or, you know, express that you are not alone in some of these talks, in dealing with some of these toxic personalities. And hopefully, like, one of my deepest desires, is that you recognize the toxicity within yourself, because it does start with you. If you can be honest and open enough to say, hey, I, you know, right, wrong, or indifferent, or no matter how I got to this place where I am a, manipulator or I am someone that, you know, doesn't say what I mean or whatever it is, right. Wherever you find yourself that you can accept, accept it and want to change and want to be better, because that's what this is all about. It's an evolution, right, of being better.

>> Stella: 11:27

That's exactly right. And very well said. And, yes, thank you, everyone. All of the listeners, supporters, our guests, everybody. We're thrilled to continue to do this and to advocate in whatever way we can for just a healthier workplace, a healthier lifestyle, and not just your physical health. Mental health is critically important. The mind body connection is real. And we're going to talk about something today, in fact. because sometimes. Sometimes, I mean, we've had. Let me back up. We've had plenty of conversations around some pretty extreme behavior that we've recognized in the workplace. Right? We've talked about the narcissists. We've talked about bullying. We've talked about mobbing. We've talked about those things. And those, again, behaviors extend in personal lives, as well. We've had those conversations. But what about the COVID abuse? What about those covert narcissists, ones that are a little harder to spot? The initial, insight into this was derived from a psychology today article, which we will link in the show notes that I found fascinating. I read it. I sent it to Stella. She agreed it was crazy. Like, we gotta bring this up, because we focused a lot on emotional intelligence. And the more we dig into emotional intelligence, whether it's that incredible book by Farah Harris, also a former guest, which we will link again in the show notes, because it's an incredible book. and she is a therapist and gives some incredible insight. The podcast we just did with the zero toxic workplace. Emotional intelligence is your shield to a lot of pain. It's your weaponry when you're dealing with these personalities and these toxic situations. and so we're going to keep harping on this emotional intelligence theme because it is so critically important. But along those lines, emotional intelligence. And I want to. Before we get into the COVID abuse, I want to let everyone know that emotional intelligence does not mean absence of emotion. It's the opposite. It's understanding what your emotions are doing to you. And there was a great, meme that I saw. I can't find it, but I'll look for it again and I'll put it on our blog. I'm going to paraphrase it, but a woman shared what her therapist told her about anger, and it said, anger is your conscious's response to you being wronged, you being hurt, and your refusal to accept that as, okay, I'm loosely paraphrasing this. I'll get the exact quote and post it. And this is the part I want to get exactly right. Anger is the part of yourself that loves you, which is deep. That struck me so, like, because if you think about it, there are times where, you know, you get so angry that tears sting your eyes right away.

>> Roberta: 14:30

Right.

>> Stella: 14:31

It doesn't make you weak. It's just you're that level of angry that you feel it. And, yeah, you have to control those things. But to think about anger as your ally, like your anger is saying, hey, that's nonsense. You should not be putting up with that. That's not okay, is a refreshing way to look at anger, which is generally seen as a very destructive, non productive, negative emotion. And it can be that if used incorrectly, like we've talked about extensively. but I just want everyone to know that it's not about being a robot. It's about having real emotions and understanding how to use those. And I can't talk today in one context so that you can move forward productively and protect yourself against that kind of harm. One last caveat before we get into it, but we're not psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay? So we're not. So please, we're going to talk about this stuff. But if you. If any of this resonates, you feel you need to talk to someone, please see a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a licensed therapist. Work through things with a professional. We are professionals, just not in this genre. We're not. We're not psychologists. We don't want to play psychologists, but we are fascinated by some of the topics and how they play into everyday life.

>> Roberta: 15:55

So, yeah, if I could say two things on anger. I think anger becomes toxic or bad if you misread what you're angry about, like, if you feel like someone slighted you, but you're making an assumption that it was against you, maybe they had nothing, like, they had no idea you would even think that way. So it's important to understand if your anger, like, where is it stemming from? Is it an assumption? Or is it that someone actually did slight you or cross a boundary? And the second thing I quickly wanted to say about EQ, the most important thing to me, personally, is boundaries. Because people don't know. They just have a really hard time with boundaries. Even well intentioned. Because when you think you're trying to help someone, like a mom, that is overly critical. Oh, you shouldn't do this because, you know, because they're trying to help, but they're crossing a boundary. and that ends up being the thing that if you don't have the EQ to deal with it, it causes the strife in your life. So that's one of the most important aspects that I've had to learn, I'm still learning, is that you have to be able to recognize boundaries. And I'll say one quick personal thing on that. my whole life, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate, you have people that say, you should do this, you should be this way. And so one of the things I work through is when someone says the word you, to have this little, like, flashing yellow light saying, okay, someone's maybe encroaching my boundaries and telling me how to live my life. because that's kind of a trick. you know, I hate to say the word trigger, but it kind of is when, because even while intentioned, I feel like I'm smart enough to figure it out to the best of how I want to live my life. So didn't mean to go on a tangent on this, but I, if you missed our live with the zero toxic workplace, I think that that was one of the highlights of EQ that I hadn't quite put my finger on until we did some more research on it.

>> Stella: 18:48

So that's all very well said. And it's a constant evolution, right?

>> Roberta: 18:53

Yes.

>> Stella: 18:54

and so as human beings, if we don't allow ourselves to grow and evolve, we stay right where we are now. We know the people that stay right where they are. Right. Those people tend to be frustrated or angry because the world has left them behind. But, it's not as if we've all abandoned them. It's. That's. You didn't want to come with. Like, we can't stay stuck, right? Because the world's going to progress. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it or go along with it, everyone else is. so you have to kind of move forward and evolve. Oh, and by the way, before I forget, and then I promise we're going to get into it, but this ties in. We're talking about evolution, and I literally just saw an article. I will find the article again. I will link it in the show notes. If you're familiar with the country of Indonesia, it's actually comprised of a number of islands, right? Actually, I think it might have more islands than anywhere else in the world. I don't know that for a fact, but I think that might be the case.

>> Roberta: 19:58

Sounds right.

>> Stella: 19:59

Yeah. There is a tribe on one of those islands that is the first. I mean, I can't get over this. This blows my little scientific geek mind. It is the first ever verified episode of physical human evolution. Not mental, not psychological, not spiritual, literally physical. And this is going to blow your mind. They have become amphibious.

>> Roberta: 20:29

Wow.

>> Stella: 20:30

Amphibious. Now, I'm assuming everyone understands what that means. Land and sea folks, they spend 60% of their time in water, 40% on land. Now, you could say that could be true of any fishing communities. What's the evolution? They have evolved to where they have particularly extensive lung capacity. So I'm going to. I'm going to share this with you and it's. It's going to blow your mind. Now, Stella, you were in the navy?

>> Roberta: 21:02

Yes.

>> Stella: 21:03

Did you have to do any diving and basic training or anything in the navy?

>> Roberta: 21:07

For sure, yeah.

>> Stella: 21:10

How deep did you dive?

>> Roberta: 21:13

I can't remember exactly, but it was pretty deep, like, in boot camp, you had to jump off the diving board and I think the pool was probably 12ft deep. It was pretty substantial. And then on the aircraft carrier that I was, we dove off the side of the aircraft carrier a few times. and we were in the middle of the sea, so. Yeah.

>> Stella: 21:45

Did you ever scuba dive?

>> Roberta: 21:48

No. Well, I have scuba dived, but on a vacation, not.

>> Stella: 21:53

Okay, so these guys are capable of diving up to 230ft below the surface.

>> Roberta: 22:05

Wow.

>> Stella: 22:06

230. But wait for it.

>> Roberta: 22:12

Wow.

>> Stella: 22:12

The only thing they have in terms of equipment are weights to help them come go down that far, and wooden goggles. There is no oxygen tank, there's no snorkel. Snorkel is not going to take you 230ft anyway. And they have evolved physically. Evolved like whales did once, because whales are mammals and they spent all their time in the water and they evolved to adapt to that. So this. This, to me, is insane. Like, I. My, mind can't wrap itself around that in my lifetime, humans in one part of the world literally evolved and changed their physiology to adapt to what they needed in such a spectacular way. This isn't about, ah, how much melanin you have, though that certainly has happened over time, but it has to do with how much air you can hold in your lungs and for how long. 230ft, folks, is a long.

>> Roberta: 23:21

What are they doing? Catching fish?

>> Stella: 23:23

Yeah, they're hunting.

>> Roberta: 23:25

Oh, my God. Wow.

>> Stella: 23:26

It's sane. So I will take that as an allegory for this session, that you two can evolve from a mental standpoint. You at least have some control over it. You can evolve. and so let's, after all this ado, let's get into it, because this is a really juicy topic, but, yeah, I'm blown away by that. I cannot understand. It fascinates me. All right, so we're going to go back to the psychological psych. Can't talk today, psychology today, psychology Today article. and the article is called what everyone should know about COVID abusers. So, of course, this caught my eye. So the concept of COVID abusers is that they do an incredible amount of harm, but it's not as overt as someone screaming at you, for example. It's not as in your face as some of the behaviors that we've talked about, but nonetheless, quite harmful. I'm going to read a quote from this, and we're going to talk about COVID narcissism as an example, because there's the overt narcissist that we all know them, we see them, we've talked about them, we're like, yep, that's you. Covert narcissism is simply a version of the same trait, the drive to feel special, in which people keep their grandiosity hidden and their apparent vulnerability on the outside. Overt narcissism is the loud, arrogant brand where people wear their grandiosity like a badge and conceal the slightest hint of vulnerability. We were used to those guys. That's the difference. So, at the level of extreme or disordered narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, NPD, both covert and overt narcissists are quite capable of either obvious or hidden abuse, which is why we're going to talk about introverted versus extroverted narcissism as one of those options. As the author stated in the article. So I was fascinated by this. Now, we talk about passive aggressive, but I don't think that's what this is. I think that's. We all know what passive aggressive is. We can spot it. This is very different. To me, this is almost. And one of the things we want to call out is the dark tetrad, which used to be the triad, but we had to add a fourth. So now it's tetrad. All you math nerds, it's tetrad. narcissism, which we've talked about. Psychopathy, which is line and manipulation, just because you can. Which. Stop doing that. Psychopaths machiavelliism, which is that whole. I'm going to play 3d chess with people's lives and emotions.

>> Roberta: 26:11

Yeah.

>> Stella: 26:12

Which is another sickness altogether. And sadism, where I enjoy other people's pain. That's the dark tetrad. Now, believe it or not, I've known people that are all four of those things at once. I've worked for people like that.

>> Roberta: 26:30

Yeah, that's crazy.

>> Stella: 26:32

But think about if you are a covert abuser in one of those categories, right? Like the psychopath one. I think that's easy. Where you don't recognize that that is a psychopath that is about to destroy your mental health.

>> Roberta: 26:49

They seem nice. Yeah, that's very charming. You come across very.

>> Stella: 26:56

You're getting love bombed. Yep.

>> Roberta: 26:58

Yes.

>> Stella: 26:59

And then flip of a switch like that, and you're like, who is this person? And then, because in that particular one, because. And this is where, again, emotional intelligence comes in. Your initial response is confusion because that's not the person you thought they were, and you liked the person that they were. The engaging, the friendly, the helpful. And then all of a sudden, boom, they're someone else completely. And your human instinct is to blame yourself as to why. What did you do to cause that?

>> Roberta: 27:33

Especially because they're very put together, they're usually very elegant with their communication, and they're usually in senior leadership, as we discussed. So it's only human to say, oh, what's. What did I do? Because now it was love bombing. And now I must have done something that changed.

>> Stella: 27:58

Correct.

>> Roberta: 27:59

The dynamic of correct.

>> Stella: 28:01

And so they're. They're extraordinarily dangerous that way. So, from an emotional intelligence perspective, just on the psychopath, element of the tetrad, you have to. I'm going to quote Farah Harris, because I think this is one of the most brilliant aspects of her book. Value the pause. Don't jump to a quick conclusion. Let that analytical side of you come out and say, okay, so let's just analyze this. Let's just look at the situation holistically and a step back removed. Right. And replay things in your mind. If you come out of that and you're like, I'm still confused because I didn't do anything. Okay. You don't have to figure out what you did wrong. You didn't do anything.

>> Roberta: 28:43

Yeah.

>> Stella: 28:44

Let the red flag waving in your face tell you what you're dealing with. And then now you know how to use your weapon of EQ in dealing with that psychopath. So if that same situation happens and they flip and they're. They're becoming, angry with you, or they're yelling at you, or they're doing all these toxic things to you, you can pull something out of your toolkit, like, you know, what? Looks like I hit you at a bad time. I'll put some time in our calendars to circle back on this point and walk away and disengage. EQ is a powerful tool because it restores control to you, to these destructive personality types that try to take it away from you. But, I mean, that's just one covert. Like, let's talk about COVID narcissists, because I'm fascinated by this. I'm fascinated at. Because we think of narcissists as somebody. It's always about them. It's always about them. What does it mean to me? So, covert narcissism is a concept that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. And I think the. The statement in the article that stuck out to me is they wear a shield of being vulnerable. Like, I don't want to be hurt. I want to protect myself, like, the wounded wing kind of Persona. And again, I think that's just a way to draw people in, because it's still going to be about them. It's still going to be about how they can get ahead, how they can leverage the situation to their benefit, how they can glean without giving, because that's what narcissists do. So let's talk about COVID narcissism quickly, because how do we recognize that? And what EQ tool, Stella, would you recommend for when you figure out you're dealing with one of those, that you don't have a vulnerable person? You're dealing with a covert narcissist.

>> Roberta: 30:40

Yeah. So I did some looking on, actually, australian psychological society.

>> Stella: 30:47

Go figure.

>> Roberta: 30:48

Love it. they say some of the traits of narcissism, especially in this covert, in this covert dynamic is there's feelings of grandiosity, self absorption, egotism. But here's the things I wasn't expecting. A sense of entitlement. And a sense of uniqueness and a sensitivity to criticism. So these are harder to spot when someone's not in your face. but it's almost like when you come across someone that feels snobby, like they don't want to talk to you, or they kind of. You get this sense that when they speak to you, they're speaking down to you because they feel like, I am better than, you know, the average person. So I think that just, like we said in EQ, recognizing boundaries. One of the other things that struck me when you were talking about love bombing, I think it would be prudent for people joining a new job if someone's coming at you and saying, oh, my God, you're so great. When you haven't really done anything yet. Or let's say you just do your job, and they're like, oh, my gosh, you're so great. I would pay attention, those people, and see if they're saying the same things to tenured people, to people that have been there for a long time. because when I look back at the, narcissistic people that I have worked under or for or with, or the psychopaths, for that matter, they did tend to not say anything about people that had been there a long time. And then as time progressed, I started hearing negative comments like, oh, that person. No, they. They don't know what they're talking about. so I saw that trend very early on, and I remember feeling that I was being love bombed because everyone started saying, oh, you're great. Oh, people say all these great things about you. And I'm like, but why? I haven't done anything yet. Or like, I felt like I was just doing the job that I was hired for. So I don't know if that answers the question, really.

>> Stella: 33:37

Yeah, I mean, I think it does. I would look at folks and say, look at more than just what the surface is. Right? Especially if we're looking at covert. Covert means hidden. So I'm going to describe someone that, Stella, you and I have worked with. So when I start describing this person, you are going to immediately know who I'm talking about. But I'm not going to give them any details other than that. I know you're going to know. So this was an individual who was highly capable at what she did, very capable of what she did. very good. But had it in her mind that she should be at a higher level than she was now. She wasn't an entry level, and she wasn't middle management. She was already in a senior leadership role, but felt she really needed to be at a higher level than that and would tell people all the time and would express how harmed she was and how she felt slighted because someone else would have her role over her and would tell everybody. And so your immediate thing as well, she's really talented, and she does such great quality work. I wonder what the deal is. Ironically, she was working for a narcissistic psychopath. So, I mean, they kind of balance each other out. But, at the end of the day, this and why I bring her up is not just because she was complaining or because she was portraying herself as being vulnerable or a victim, but because when push came to shove, she used her position to harm other people.

>> Roberta: 35:16

Yeah.

>> Stella: 35:18

And did not feel bad about it in the slightest.

>> Roberta: 35:23

Yeah.

>> Stella: 35:25

And it still didn't help her get where she thought she was gonna be.

>> Roberta: 35:29

Right.

>> Stella: 35:29

But she was pulling this under the radar. I'm a team player. I just. I really should be in this role. I, you know, I should be. I just interviewed that person. How is that person going to be that role and not me? It would be a constant drum from that person. But yet on the back end, that person was playing chess and using that. Her position to hurt others. And it became very obvious after you were a victim of this person, because it was more than just the two on this podcast. There were a lot of people that were victimized, and you just didn't recognize it at first. so that kind of covertness, again, I think the emotional intelligence of just take a step back, take a look under the surface, and just keep valuing the pause and asking yourself, okay, but why? So why tell me, right? If you ever want to make a narcissist a little uneasy in real time, by the way, if you want to, here's the narcissist test. If a, ah, narcissist is venting to you and you think, I think this person's a narcissist, let them say whatever they have to say. And then here's the million dollar question. Why tell me? Boom. Because the narcissist is not expecting you to ask that, because remember, in the. In their mind, you are honored because I'm doing. I'm telling you anything.

>> Roberta: 36:58

Yeah.

>> Stella: 36:59

So how dare you challenge me? So one of two things will happen. They'll either get angry, that you. What do you mean? Why am I telling you? I'm telling you because that's clue one. Or clue two is how you know you have a covert narcissist, potentially is. I see you as somebody that I could really talk to and trust about this.

>> Roberta: 37:22

Yeah.

>> Stella: 37:22

because it's an attempt to rake you in. In reality, most people don't, again, randomly. Relationships always matter. If this is someone you hardly know and they're telling you about their frustrations. Red flag. They don't know you. They don't know what you're going to do with that information. Red flag. Red flag. you ready for.

>> Roberta: 37:43

That's a very keen insight.

>> Stella: 37:46

Thanks.

>> Roberta: 37:49

I think I know who you're speaking of.

>> Stella: 37:51

Of course you do. I knew you would know. I knew you would know. I mean, this isn't hard. you know, it's just, again, time and perspective give you all kinds of insight. Right? Yeah, but that's what we're trying to use that to help other people. Like big red flag. Like that guy who's a meme on TikTok or something, where he walks around with, like, this huge, like, ten by 20 flag, waving a red flag. this is one of those. My personal, I can't say favorite, because none of these things are my favorite, but machiavellianism. So this I probably despise more than anything else. Because when you elevate yourself to a position that you are literally playing chess with people's lives, where you are scheming, manipulating, laying plans into place, pulling people in and out of those plans like we're all puppets just waiting for you, mister puppet master, or miss Puppet master, to please, oh, pull my strings today I want to be part of your scheme. When you are at that level of evil, and there's no better word for it. I have zero time for those people in my life. And as soon as I recognize them for what they are, you'll see me distance myself instantly. Like, I don't have the time. I don't want to play those games. I have a purpose in my life. I have a purpose for my life. I'm not here to play a pawn in your chess game. And, elevating me to a queen on your chessboard doesn't mean you're not still playing chess with me. So that's the big watch out for these characters is sometimes people feel that if they're not the ones. This is kind of where mobbing comes in, right? Mobbing is very much, ah, this behavior. It is intentionally orchestrating these negative toxic behaviors and actions against a particular target. And if you're part of the in crowd, you can't see my air quotes, people, because it's a podcast, but I made them in crowd. If you're part of the in crowd and you don't feel as if you're a target because you're the one doing the targeting. No, you're not. No, you're not. Let me help you again. You may have the position of Bishop or queen, but you're not king. And even the king on that chessboard is being moved by someone else. And that someone else is who we're talking about here. That's someone else. and at one of the most toxic places I think we've ever worked, stell, that particular behavior is the one that I think we saw more than anything else.

>> Roberta: 40:38

Yeah.

>> Stella: 40:39

And when you. I mean, because, the. The most amazing thing. And again, here's the thing. Nothing validates you, and I hate being validated by more pain caused upon other people. I don't like it. But nothing validates that you are not crazy and that pain was not your fault, and it wasn't caused by you then watching that nonsense continuing, you're not even there. Like, haven't been there. you know, it's just people that were actually part of that chessboard that were played active roles on that chessboard.

>> Roberta: 41:11

Right?

>> Stella: 41:12

Awarded, applauded accolades for being on that chessboard. Stunned when they realized they just got knocked off the chessboard. And it happens that quick. It can happen as quickly as. Okay, we're trusting you with all of this. Wait, you're laid off now. Wait, what? It's because the game is still being played. The game is still being played. And when you figure out who the chess master is, you know, who really is in charge of all of it. And when you're in that kind of, If it's that bad, you. There's no. You hear me say it. Get out. Get out.

>> Roberta: 41:46

Right.

>> Stella: 41:47

You can't win. You're not going to change the game from chess to checkers. You're not going to do it. You're not going to. You're not going to clear the game and say, why are we even playing a game when somebody else wants to play it and that person's in charge? You're not. You got to get out of those.

>> Roberta: 42:02

Yeah. Some of the traits of machiavelliism is a. Ah. Cynical worldview. I thought that was interesting. manipulative tactics, obviously. Amorality. Hey, now, lack of empathy. No surprise. Agentic motives. I had to look that up anyway.

>> Stella: 42:25

Look up objective motives. I love you.

>> Roberta: 42:27

Yeah. And self, enhancement. So, yeah, that's. I do. I have seen these strategies play out.

>> Stella: 42:39

Yes.

>> Roberta: 42:39

and it's so important, as you guys probably know, as our listeners probably know, that you understand the strategy and the vision of your company. If that vision or strategy is constantly changing, then that's your first red flag. If your vision isn't clear, it could be that it's not communicated well. But that's a problem. I mean, you should know why you're coming to work and what it is that the direction of the company is. One of the things I've never understood in all of my previous places of employment is that I, don't understand. Everyone preaches. Oh, transparency, communication. Transparency, communication. Of course, I've always been in a service role, where the service was not, you know, a food or a product. Right. But, but all that to say, it was always a, ah, you know, a talking piece, that communication. We open door policy, all these things. But I was never clear on the direction the company was going. It was always hush hush. Even the, to me, like, I get there's some hr things going on here, but if someone is going to be let go and it directly impacts my day because a, I'm going to be given all of that work, or now I need to go to someone else, I don't understand why it is so hush hush. Like, look, I get it before the person's let go, to a certain extent. Because to an extent, I say, if something's going to directly impact what I am doing, why wouldn't you help me understand that? And you can. I'm sure there's ways, I'm sure people are smart enough to come up with ways to say, hey, you're going to be doing these things now and then if, if it's on me to ask why this is so and so's job, I mean, that's when you have the conversation that, hey, right now, this, is what I'm telling you, right. Without disclosing the sensitive information. But all that to say is, I feel like we, a lot more people are experiencing machiavellian tactics than know that it is that. And so I'm glad we're, like, bringing that to light.

>> Stella: 45:34

Agreed. And again, there's a number of examples where this plays out and we're being very work heavy on this episode. Yes. But if you think about this again, EQ is something that you take with you. Don't just leave it at the office when you go home for the day. This is something you build up for your life. You get better at it, you continue to work at it. Some would also call it maturing, but I like to call it evolving. because you can be mature human being and still continue to evolve. Otherwise we'd all be pretty much done at 20 something. Right? so I don't even recognize myself from my twenties, which is scary because I was a parent. so I will tell you that in your personal life, somebody with that kind of. And I'm just going to call it disorder, right. If they exhibit those kind of traits, you as a functioning human being with EQ, if you recognize it, you address it. If that's someone in your family, you should be able to have a familial discussion of, hey, and again, boundaries are going to be part of it. Like, hey, I'm always happy to see you, but you can't just drop by. You need to give me a call. Mother in law. My mother in law has never done that, by the way. But if you are dealing with some really difficult behaviors here, because that can happen and families get complicated, if you have a friend who you feel is always taking advantage of you, it's probably because you allow it. You've got to stop it. Yes, they're gonna get angry. Yes, they may no longer be your friend. It's true. Let it. You have to get to a point. And, man, I'll tell you what, if there's anything that the past year has done for me personally, as we processed everything we went through, everything we've learned, and putting this podcast together, if there's anything that I take away with me is abandon what does not serve you.

>> Roberta: 47:37

Yeah.

>> Stella: 47:38

If you have people in your life that are drawing away from you, are taking your energy, are hurting, you, are stressing you out, you lose sleep, whether it's your boss, your spouse, whatever, you've got to distance yourself, because you are no good to anyone. If you are a shell of who you are, and it seems selfish to think that way, but it's not. How do you, how do you run a car that has somebody siphoning gas out of the tank? How do you feed people if your refrigerator is always empty because someone took all your food? So you have to be okay with. When you recognize the behavior and you're pretty confident in it, you use your EQ to say, okay, let me address my confusion as a result of me not accepting this behavior, because it shouldn't be happening. My anger is a result of me verifying to myself, no, this is nonsense. I'm being taken advantage of, you know, and understanding what those emotions mean to you at those times and then using that weapon to handle the situation. best way to disarm somebody who is trying to play chess is refuse to play the game.

>> Roberta: 48:48

Yeah, for sure.

>> Stella: 48:50

We have one more. It's the nasty one.

>> Roberta: 48:52

Yes.

>> Stella: 48:54

Sadism. Good God, these people. now, when you think of a sadist and you let your mind go to all of the horror movies, right? Because that's immediately where I go, like, what's the name of the guy that has pins all in his face? I don't remember.

>> Roberta: 49:11

Right.

>> Stella: 49:12

You know who I'm talking about, where he's got, like this. Yeah.

>> Roberta: 49:14

Ah.

>> Stella: 49:15

Right now there's listeners who are. Who love the genre. My daughter included. My daughter loves the horror genre. Screaming the name of that person. I can't hear you. So, But that's a sadist. The person, who rides around on the little tricycle with the target symbols on his cheeks. Yeah, I don't know his name either. Stop yelling at. That's a sadist.

>> Roberta: 49:38

I'm bad at that, too.

>> Stella: 49:41

But a sadist relishes in the pain of others. Not just causes it, delights in it. Think about. If you want to think about true evil, that's it. M when you're a sadist and you can relish in the anguish of other people, mental or physical or both, I mean, only God can help those people. You can't. Let's be clear on that. And again, I'm not a licensed professional, but I'm just going to tell you, if somebody is a sadist and you recognize that and you've got the EQ to recognize that they are hurting you because they take joy in it, because it literally makes them happy. Some people get sexual gratification simply out of hurting other people. It is that sick. If you recognize that person in your life and you think, oh, my God, that is so insane. You have to shelter yourself and protect yourself. You are not changing that person. You're never going to change that person. And if that person also has these wonderful, other delightful emotional traits that we've talked about on the dark tetrad, you are not going to win some women. I'm not one of those women, but some women have this. I can love them through it. I can change them.

>> Roberta: 51:15

Yep.

>> Stella: 51:16

set yourself up for grief. You're not what you're signing up for in those relationships, particularly personal relationships. I'm signing up to be somebody's verbal punching bag. God forbid their physical punching bag. That person is not going to be loyal to you. You know why? Not because that person wants to cheat for their own gratification, but because that person knows that that cheating hurts you, and that's their gratification. How do you have children with such a person? M knowing that that person will take joy out of harming those children. Emotionally, psychologically, physically. This person in the workplace is the least productive member, but sometimes is the highest levels of an organization that just takes more pleasure from screwing with people. You can't win in these situations. You have. This is where EQ comes to play. Is keeping all of the good emotions about you in check. Pity is a good emotion because you're supposed to look at someone and say, oh, my God. Now, empathy is preferred, but, like, if you see someone and you know that they're in a different position than you, a, lower position. And I don't mean financially. I mean, that's somebody, for example, who may have lost something very important to them, and you take pity upon them because you. You feel that bad for them, that's a good emotion. But when you pity a sadist, all you're doing is saying hi. So my triggers are pity, empathy, sympathy. and if. If you see any of those in me, you can make me do whatever it is you want and then hurt me. Because it's like we wear our emotions when we don't have Eq, we wear them. People say, wear my emotions on my sleeve? Nah. Now, that billboard. Think of this big, giant billboard you carry around on your back, like the kind you see on the expressway. And it says, like, hi, I'm Roberta. And my emotional triggers are. And it lists. And when you have EQ, that billboard doesn't exist. You become a mystery. And that's okay. It's okay to have that. It's okay to shield yourself. Remember, that's your shield. When you don't have EQ and you wear those emotions on, that big screaming billboard, a status looks at that and says, that's my target. And knows exactly how to manipulate you, exactly what will trigger you, exactly what you'll fall for again and again and again. And they will do that again and again and again because that's how they get their flipping kicks.

>> Roberta: 53:58

Right?

>> Stella: 53:59

First of all, Asterik, notice there has been no cussing in this episode. Just want to make that clear. Look at us go now. It's not over yet.

>> Roberta: 54:06

I did say he doubles double hockey.

>> Stella: 54:09

You did say he double hockey sticks. But I just want to tell you guys like this, just note it. Okay, back to our content.

>> Roberta: 54:17

I do want to say a few things on say to some. one of the things is that, I was thinking about, because that's how I am. Where did it possibly come from? Of course, where did it possibly come from? And one of the avenues that stay with me. I want to make a distinction here. If you think about when someone would feel happy that someone else is suffering, the only thing that comes to mind as a nice, decent person is revenge. Because when you feel wronged, you want some type of retribution. And maybe you say, well, it's going to come back to you, or karma's a biznodge. you had to catch yourself. Yeah, I did. but I do think that that is a distinction that doesn't make you a sadist. but it is a slippery slope too, because once you get the enjoyment of seeing someone down that potentially wronged you, what's going to happen the next time? Are you always going to want to see someone fail? and you can start, unfortunately, justifying that you get your kicks off of seeing bad people, you know, go down or whatever. so, you know, there is like a, what I would call a righteous anger and a righteous need for retribution or, you know, judgment against somebody that offends. but it is a slippery slope. That's why, you know, in a lot of religious circles, things like leave revenge to God is a thing, because the intent is to not to want to corrupt who you are as a decent, good human being. referring back to that article, some of the traits of everyday sadism is obviously, as we said, taking pleasure at others distress, cruelty in everyday life, and the willingness to incur pain on innocent people. so, yeah, you touched on it beautifully. I do want to say that in this article, it says that generally dark personality traits like these, like this tetrad, have been associated with a greater propensity to sexually harass others. And as we talked about this whole time, this all comes down to boundaries, right? If you relinquish your control, relinquish your boundary just a little bit, these people will take a little bit more. You hear about take an inch. you know, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a mile. That's how you can spot this. And again, like Roberta and I have learned a lot of this, unfortunately, through experience and definitely through hindsight.

>> Stella: 57:44

Yes.

>> Roberta: 57:45

So we're not saying any of this is necessarily easy in the moment, especially because you end up blaming yourself. You. A lot of normal people will go inward before they blame somebody else. And I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, but this is why we talk about tools of writing things down and, you know, what exactly happened here. And, trust your feelings. If you're feeling anxiety or stress or depression, there's usually, you know, if you're crying and you don't want to be crying, these are all signs that your body's giving you to say, something isn't right here, and you need to, please, owe it. You owe it to yourself to investigate it, like, to really think about it. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I want to leave my. At least what I'm saying on this note. my counselor had given me this really great tool. It's called rain. And it is recognize, accept, investigate, and nurture. So you recognize when something is wrong, you give yourself that grace of recognizing, okay, I am having a hard time now, or I am spiraling and I don't understand it. Accept it. You accept that you're having these emotions, because if you don't accept it and you're fighting it, like, I don't know why I'm crying. I don't know why I'm so angry. I don't know why, you know, I'm reacting this way and I should be calm. I should be regulated. but give yourself that acceptance, and that creates room to investigate. And when you're investigating, you're saying, okay, let me pull myself out of my emotion and really understand, why am I reacting this way now that I've recognized it. And you're giving yourself that permission after acceptance. And the last thing is to nurture, honor yourself, and give yourself the courage and the grace to say, you know, maybe I'm not the best at dealing with a very confrontational personality, but that's okay. I deserve to, you know, feel good in my skin. I deserve to be loved. I don't. I don't care what it is, but to nurture yourself, because the human experience is diverse, it is cruel sometimes it is like reality is often cruel. We are raised to believe in these dreams where you're always happy and, you know, you're doing great things. But that doesn't always happen for a lot of us. And so we have to be gentle and loving with ourselves. That's the only way you're going to be authentically nice and good and kind to other people. So that's my m soapbox on,

>> Stella: 1:01:06

That welcome to her Ted talk. But I think this is. But I mean, honestly, there's so much wisdom there, Stella, and thank you so much for sharing that, because I think that's a wonderful tool. And rain, folks, rain. Let it rain. the other way you can nurture yourself, by the way, is to educate yourself, feed your knowledge base.

>> Roberta: 1:01:26

Beautiful.

>> Stella: 1:01:28

Read the books we're recommending, they're great. We're not making money on these. We have no affiliate link. We're recommending the authors. We have them on our podcast because it's incredible information. Get, into social circles that feed you, that you are able to learn from. Talk to trusted people. And who are those people, then? Because you're going to be. If you're like me, you're going to be suspicious of everybody. Like, I don't know what your motives are. Tell me your motives. Machiavellian mother. Tell me your motives.

>> Roberta: 1:02:03

that is so Roberta, by the way.

>> Stella: 1:02:05

It is so true. I'm like, suspicious af. Like, I, I didn't used to be as the thing, like, now I am. But I'm trying to work on it. I'm trying to be more trusting. It's just, you know, you find that your circle gets smaller and that's okay. you know, it's. But whatever. Whoever is in your circle, who you would trust your kid or your life with, talk to that person and tell them what you are experiencing. And if they're a good listener, they're going to be helpful for you, just for listening. But emotional intelligence is about recognizing that these things happen. And as we've said repeatedly, and I'll close on this understanding that it is a shield and a weapon for you. It protects you from this sort of nonsense, and it also serves as a weapon to where you can counter the attack simply by disarming the enemy. And it's critical to your mental health, it's critical to your relationships. The happier and more centered you are as a human being, not only are you, to Stella's points, going to be kind and good with others, but you will find that your circle becomes larger with good people in it, because good is attracted to good.

>> Roberta: 1:03:28

Yes.

>> Stella: 1:03:29

Oil and water don't mix. So if you look at oil as you know, which, by the way, olive oil is very good for you. I'm not maligning oil.

>> Roberta: 1:03:38

Okay?

>> Stella: 1:03:38

This is a, this is an analogy. This is an allegory.

>> Roberta: 1:03:43

Extra virgin, single origin.

>> Stella: 1:03:45

First of all, why are, we talking about anything else? That's right. Evoo, single origin. Stop messing around. Don't call it olive oil if it's not okay, stop messing around. I'm italian. I take that personally. We will go to fisticuffs. I will fight you. But if you think of oil as these personalities, and you are water, you're not mixing with them. So don't try to. Don't try to. Oil and vinegar, however, delightful, wonderful salad dressing. Highly recommended. I think we're going to wrap on that for this episode. M. We thank everybody. We recognize that sometimes our releases are sporadic, as we've also said, we're all hysterically busy, and we try to make sure that we can get good content out there that is valuable. We will be bringing back guests. We will be doing more, we promise. It's just we've had a bit of a transformative experience with the podcast. We're seeing some positives from this. We're grateful for all of you and your support, and you're listening. And please continue to send in those stories. We aren't always going to be preachy. We're not always going to be couch, you know, therapists with no licenses. I stress, don't listen to, us. We're talking about something we're not telling you. Yes, sometimes we're going to be focused on the funny nature of all of this. And there are funny moments. If you don't think so, go listen to some of our Halloween episodes where we just. Exactly all of that. The entire month of October last year was one giant, ridiculous month. And yet I would have. How many comments did you get from October where people, I had one of our listeners literally sent, me a note and said, I am crying, laughing at my desk. How dare you? I'm sorry, I did not know you were listening at work. That's a baller move right there. I'm gonna listen to toxic workplace at work. Yeah, it's baller. Good for you. but stay with us. We're going to continue to put content out and bring you more and more value. I think we're overdue, though, for more of a fun episode. I think we need, I think we have enough in the teabag right now that maybe our next episode is going to be something along those lines where we're all going to, in a very non sadistic way, because we're not, we're not relishing in people's pain. We're not trying to cause pain so we can enjoy it. We are going to laugh at some stupid stuff. So, we'll make that an upcoming episode. So with that, please take care of yourself so that you can take care of others and we appreciate you. Hope you're having a wonderful summer. If you can stay out of the rain. Hope you're growing things. I'm growing things. And unless you're from a tribe in Indonesia, don't try to dive 250ft. That's. That's not for you. You haven't evolved. Evolve in other ways.