The Daring Departure: Chronicles of a Couple's Scientology Escape and the Fight for Freedom - Scientology Stories #37

On the 19th anniversary of my own flight from Scientology, my wife Claire joins me to share her harrowing tale of escape, a saga of defiance and cunning woven amidst the stifling grip of the organization. With the passing of L. Ron Hubbard echoing in the background, we unravel the threads of a meticulously crafted exit plan, where every covert phone call and secret suitcase packed was a step towards liberty. Claire's story is not just one of escape, but a revelation of the raw power dynamics and the choking surveillance that once dictated our lives within the group's international base.

As Claire and I dissect the events leading to her audacious break for freedom, it's a narrative that grips you with its intensity. Imagine the adrenaline of navigating a Walmart to meet a secret cab ride arranged through a torn-out phone book page, or sitting at a bus station, guarding your belongings against high-ranking members determined to drag you back. The episode lays bare the strategies and manipulations employed by Scientology, painting a vivid picture of the lengths one must go to evade the clutches of such an organization. Claire’s encounter with Greg Wilhere and Sharon Johnston, known for their imposing presence within the group, epitomizes the confrontation between personal will and institutional control.

The podcast culminates with a poignant reflection on the aftermath of escape and the challenges of starting anew. The emotional turmoil of adjusting to a world of strangers, the strategies to prevent abduction, and the cathartic act of preparing a meal together are all steps on the journey towards healing. Claire's and my conversation is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the enduring quest for freedom. It's a raw look at the emotional landscape one traverses when leaving behind a life of control, and an inspiring story of the new beginnings that lie ahead.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to the channel, welcome to another episode of Scientology Stories. I'm Mark Headley, your host for today, and the escape story that we're going to be doing today is from my wife, claire.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Yes, perfect. And the crazy thing is that January 24th, 2024, marks the 19th year from the day that I escaped from Scientology, which was the 19th year anniversary of Elrond Hubbard's death. How bizarre is that.

Speaker 1: 0:49

That's crazy. So that's the reason this video is coming out today. We would have done this one live, but while this video, while you're watching this video, I'm in a plane somewhere, flying somewhere, so we had to pre-record this one and just have it air today. So we and if you watched my escape story, Claire's story takes place about two weeks later. Is that right? I left on January. Is it the fourth or the fifth? Is the day that I got out of there?

Speaker 2: 1:18

You escaped on January 4th and I escaped on January 24th, so it was almost three weeks later.

Speaker 1: 1:26

Okay, perfect, Okay, so then I'm. So I left, I escaped. We'll put a link to that video below if you want to hear that story, because this one basically picks up just right after that. I'm in Kansas City now and you're still at the property, and after I left, they got, they made you change your phone, right. What exactly happened with that?

Speaker 2: 1:50

Yes, and so all the detailed events of those three weeks I've covered in my book. That is in progress, so that will come out. But yes, when you escaped at first there was a lot of back and forth, but they did not want you to be able to contact me, or vice versa, so they changed my phone number so that you could no longer try to call me, because they had been monitoring my phone records during that time, every single day. They were looking at what I was, you know, any calls coming in and any calls going out, and because of that they'd seen that I kept leaving you voicemails.

Speaker 1: 2:34

So oh, on your phone, on your original phone.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Oh, and so when I left I turned that phone off and actually I sold that phone so like I needed the money. So, and it was my personal phone that David Muscavige had given to me as a gift, so as soon as I got it out, got out of there. It was a next-to-phone too. That's another thing I should be very clear. They were sort of so we could talk to each other as radio. If we just chirped, you could just talk like a radio, or you can actually make a phone call. When you chirped somebody, I don't know exactly, they couldn't exactly see who you were chirping when you did it, but if you made a phone call, then they could see that.

Speaker 1: 3:19

That's right, so, but I had turned my phone off regardless, so, and I wasn't checking the voicemails or anything. I was just like this is done, this account's over, and I ended up selling it to some guy. I think he got it for his like 12-year-old for a birthday present, and I didn't erase any of the numbers or do anything like that. So David Muscavige's number was still. All these people's phone numbers were still in there. I was just like whatever, who cares?

Speaker 2: 3:45

Yep, yep, it's crazy, crazy, but yeah. So they changed my phone number. So then, all of a sudden, I was now and they told me they were bringing you back. So I had to kind of buy my time to see if you were coming back or not. When I figured out that they were, they were not going to, they hadn't figured out how to get you back.

Speaker 2: 4:06

That's when I started on my figuring out my plan and I and I very quickly realized I couldn't do it without your help. So therefore I had to find a way to contact you and I got my sister to give you my phone number. So then we arranged this plan that I would get this eye doctor's appointment, which was on for Monday, january 24th, at 10.15 am 2005. And so all I had to do is get get the approval to go to my eye doctor's appointment and then, once, once I was at the eye doctor's appointment, get a cab and go to the Riverside bus station and that you would call me at 10.15, by which time I should be in the cab on the way to the bus station.

Speaker 1: 4:55

Yeah, and then you would turn your phone off at that point, so they couldn't trace you or see where your location was based on the GPS data from the phone Because, unlike my phone, your phone belonged to them.

Speaker 2: 5:07

That's right.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Yes, so they could see they could just log into that phone and see where you were and all that other stuff. And they could do that Truthfully. They could have done that with me as well.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Right, because they were paying for your phone service. Right, it was service yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:22

But? But because I had actually just turned the phone off and taken the battery out and then eventually shipped it off to somebody. It didn't matter what. The GPS from that phone wasn't going to make any difference.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Yes.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Okay, so then do we want to bring up the map then?

Speaker 2: 5:38

Yes, let's get into this.

Speaker 1: 5:41

So you get approved to go. Who's supposed to take you?

Speaker 2: 5:45

So originally it was going to just be the medical staff member who drove staff around to their appointments, dropped them off and then came back around to pick them up, like all through Hemet.

Speaker 1: 5:57

Yeah, because Seaworth members at the international base probably out of, let's say, 800 people that worked at that property, probably 20 of them had access to a vehicle and so or or had their own vehicle. Even a smaller amount maybe even had a vehicle that they could drive. But usually you could just get a vehicle from the motor pool, depending on what you were doing, and then you could drive somewhere. But you and you'd have to have special approval to do that, to be able to get off the property. But the medical liaison officer, it's just a person at the property who essentially is a driver, and then if any kind of questions on paperwork come out, that person's the one who does all that. You don't even do anything. They fill everything out Because you don't even know where you live, you don't even know your address. So what are you going to write on a piece of paper?

Speaker 2: 6:48

Yes, exactly, and and you make you bring up a good point because the gates at that property are kept closed as much to keep people from coming in as to keep people from driving out, because how many times have people just been crossing over from one side of the property to the other and taken off, like Marty Rathbone and Ron Miscavige Sr, and many other examples?

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yeah, so if you're going to go to the doctor, usually you would go with the medical liaison officer. That's the person. So the but that's not the person that ended up taking you.

Speaker 2: 7:26

No, no. So I had to have get approval to get off the property, and during in trying to get that approval, jenny DeVocht, jenny Linson, told me no, you can't go with the medical person, you have to have a dedicated security person with you. So the only way that that I was allowed to go off the property was with a singular person to be at my side the entire time, and that person was Kristi Mullins.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Okay, and she was, and she worked in the same area that you worked in CMO Int. At this time you had just gotten kicked out of religious technology center because you wouldn't divorce me. Now I'm gone, which, in hindsight, that seems like that didn't go exactly the way you thought it was going to go. But so you get kicked out of RTC because you won't divorce me. I've now escaped and now you're in CMO Int and the person that is going to escort you to the doctor is also in CMO Int.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Yes, and this was the whole, by the way, the early beginnings of the whole, but nonetheless the whole.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Okay, well, let's, let's. Based on that, let's bring up the map and we'll see where we are. Okay, wait, hold on, let's go back to here we go. Okay, so here's the west coast of the United States.

Speaker 1: 8:42

You can see this is California here, and if we zoom in to the int base, yep you can see right here there's the int base, that's the international headquarters of Scientology, located in Gilman Hot Springs, california, 1965, highway 79. Okay, and then you can see on the left there's the hole here. Let me get rid of this so you can see, right on the left there it says hole Yep. So that's where you were, that's where you were working, that's also where Christie worked in these double wide trailers yes.

Speaker 1: 9:19

Okay, now here's the path that you need to get to go to Walmart From there. You got to get out of the base and you got to go all the way down into Hemet, and that is where there was a Walmart at that time. Now, for all you haters out there, or people that live from Hemet and San Jacinto or live in that area, there is now a Walmart in San Jacinto which is much closer to the property, but that didn't exist back then. Okay, so you had to get to Walmart. So that's how far it is. So that's like it's a good, probably 10, 15 minute, maybe 20 minute drive to get there from the property.

Speaker 2: 9:57

Yes and and so. Yeah, so Christie had a Vehicle that belonged to the CMO, yeah, and so we got in the in the car and so I was wearing a Puffy jacket, because it was January, it was kind of cold and in the pockets I had stuffed like I'd rolled up a pair of pants. I wasn't uniform To go into town. We had we would have to change our tops. Only we, we could wear uniform pants, but we couldn't wear our uniform shirt. So I wasn't wearing a uniform shirt and I had also, like, tucked away the few little Belongings that I could fit into every pocket of this puffy jacket without it looking like.

Speaker 1: 10:44

You're making a cross-country trip In whatever you were wearing at the time you couldn't bring a suitcase with you.

Speaker 2: 10:54

No, could not bring a suitcase. So, like my most treasured small belongings, that's what made the cut. So so my pockets were carefully jammed. But even then, even getting into the car with Christie on, while still on the property, I was still like, oh my gosh, are they even gonna let me off? Is security gonna open the gate? I, you know, anything can go wrong at any minute and it can all be a bust, you know.

Speaker 1: 11:22

You know, I guess and also it's it's to of particular note that whenever a spouse of somebody escapes from the Sea Org, it's almost always that that person is on lockdown. The one who didn't escape is on lockdown because Surely there's a possibility that they're gonna try to follow that person or escape as well. So the fact that they even let you off the property two weeks, two and a half weeks, after I had escaped blows my mind that we got through that part. But you were I guess you were playing the part pretty good because they believed you. I was.

Speaker 2: 12:03

In fact there was somebody that escaped After like several years after yeah and she. She had been in the hole too and she had been, particularly at a group meeting that we'd attended the day before when I'd gotten a letter from David Mischavich and I was supposed to make everybody Snap to or some nonsense, and she took. She told us afterwards she was like that was an award-winning performance right there.

Speaker 1: 12:37

You told everybody hey, we gotta get, you gotta get your axe together, we got to get, do this and we got to do that. And then the next day you GTF.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Oh yeah, and that was that, was like even that was like I had to really go like, oh my god, because if I, you know how it is, if you do it, if you, I had to do that Because I had a letter from David Mischavich and if I didn't respond I was gonna get in trouble. Yeah and meanwhile I had already planned with you To GTFO the next day. Yeah and if I did a wishy-washy or a not unconvincing performance, that would have gotten my appointment cancelled as well. So I had no choice, wow.

Speaker 1: 13:20

Okay, so here's the Walmart. Now let's look at the door. So when you go up, so Christy drops you off, then what?

Speaker 2: 13:28

Okay, so you guys get there, then what? Yeah, so we're pulling into the parking lot Timing was everything of this Because we pulled in, it was raining a little bit and it was right on the dot of like 1015, which was the time of my appointment, and so we go into the door.

Speaker 2: 13:49

So she put she pulls into the parking lot and she's driving up towards the door on the right okay, and and and I look over to the door on the left and I see that the cab is there that I called, and I had called that cab at six o'clock the more that morning using my Organization phone and I had said I gave the name Barbara Smith and I said that I needed to go from Walmart to the Riverside count Riverside bus station at 1015. So so we're pulling Christie's, pulling into the parking lot, she's pulling up the aisle on the right and, as it happened, she didn't immediately find a parking space. So I said, hey, why don't you let me out by the the store right here and I'll go into the appointment while you park? I didn't know if she was gonna fall for it or not, but by some miracle she did.

Speaker 1: 14:48

So also we have to. We have, even though this, this girl, this woman worked in the same area as you. You were her boss.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Right.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Yes, you were the seat. You were senior over her. Yes, and she was sent to make sure you didn't escape. She wasn't. She was in the Seaworth hierarchy. She was lower than you were, so you just like, parked a car and I'll go in and she's gonna be. If she kind of, if she gave you any flak, there could be repercussions of that, like you could say, seriously, what are you talking about? I'm, you know, I'm senior to you. Park the car and I'll meet you in there.

Speaker 2: 15:27

Yeah, and that's true. I that's not really how I rolled. But, but you're right, and also not only that, I had been significantly senior to her when I had been in Religious Technology Center, yeah, and I had helped her actually a few times. So I don't think I Think she, she just had no idea.

Speaker 1: 15:53

She didn't think you were gonna take off. Yeah, that's the, at the end of the day, the reason why they let you go to the appointment. They let you go with her, but but they did not just let you go with the medical liaison officer, because, right they, they, they knew not to do that. That's just giving you too much freedom.

Speaker 2: 16:13

But if I gave you an escort, that's a little bit more respect, yeah, and, and the day after you escaped I wasn't allowed to even go home To the how to the, to our room that was right just off the property. Anymore, I like I wasn't. I never went home again, really, if you think about it, because I was in the time when I escaped, on January 4th.

Speaker 1: 16:41

You did never went to that house. No, not once.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Maybe once that, just that first night. But then after that they said you can't go home anymore, so I never did after that. So you sleep for that two weeks or whatever on the floor of my office, under my desk with a sleeping bag.

Speaker 1: 17:02

For the whole, that whole time.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Yep.

Speaker 1: 17:05

Wow, you know, I was thinking about that because maybe the reason why they didn't want you to go there was in case we had like a secret note location or a Place where we could pass information to each other. Yeah and you could have gone there and been like, oh, look behind the, look in the the vitamin D bottle in the medicine cat.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Yeah, but you, you know what. You reminded me of an important detail, which was that that night after you escaped, on January 4th, that night, which was the last night I was at that house, yeah and again it was. We had a room in that house. There were other couples that lived there, but the important thing to note is that for some random reason, there was a yellow yellow pages in that at the house.

Speaker 1: 17:56

It was just left over from the people that lived there before. Oh, that's another thing. When we moved into those houses, like if they were bought, and then it was like, okay, this house just got bought, you guys are gonna move into it. Sometimes it still had food from the people that lived in the house before. We lived in like three or four of those houses. The entire garage was filled with the people that had lived there before us that they didn't stuff, they didn't take like lawnmowers and tools and just junk, and there was a pair of Night vision gongles. There was all kinds of random stuff and from the people that had sold the house to Scientology.

Speaker 1: 18:33

Yes so this. So yeah, likely the phone book was from whoever lived there before. Just happened to have a phone book.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yes, and so I, because I had packed a suitcase and I hid it under the bed and and I went to the, to the yellow pages, and I found a taxi cab company and I tore out that little piece of paper and Folded it up and put it in a, in a little notebook, tiny little notebook that I had, and and so that's how I was able to call the cab company almost three weeks later, on January 24th, when I made my escape. Anyway, just a side note, but yeah, so so we pull into the Walmart. I convinced Kristina, let me out of the car. I walk out right where that the marker is on the right-hand side. I walk into Walmart and Amiwa. I had glanced over and I saw at the other door there was the cab waiting right on time, and I'm like, okay, I got a.

Speaker 1: 19:35

I got to get there quick, but I didn't want to run, so I just kind of walked through the Walmart as quickly as I could Got into just went from what you literally went in on the right side, you just walked straight across the Walmart and then got out on the other side.

Speaker 2: 19:51

Yes.

Speaker 1: 19:51

So by the time Kristi parked and everything, you could have already even been in the cabin and been driving away.

Speaker 2: 19:59

Yes, and I I know exactly when, when she got in. So, basically, so I get in the cab. He says Barbara Smith, I'm like, yes, he's like Riverside bus station, yes, okay, great. So then we pull out and we're pull, so he pulls out. From this picture, he, he was facing to the left. Okay, that's the way, that's the direction. So he is yeah, exactly so he's pulling out around and we're not even Out of the Walmart parking lot yet and she radios me.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Okay.

Speaker 2: 20:33

She chirps me. Where are you, oh? And I said, oh, I just went to the bathroom, I'll be right there and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this. I'm literally nuts like I.

Speaker 1: 20:48

She say, claire, are you there? You say, yeah, this is clear.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Yeah, yeah, and you know how. You know how like normal human interaction, like Uber drivers, whatever, at least in my experiences subsequently. Yeah they'll be like hey, is everything okay? Do we need to stop and wait for something? No, dead silence. He's like Just keeps driving. He did not even pause he was like whoa man. I know I just thinking about it now. I'm like he. He knew he wasn't. I'm sure he knew something Fun, funny was going on, but anyway.

Speaker 1: 21:23

Okay so now you need to get to the Riverside bus station, right?

Speaker 2: 21:29

yes, oh, and so she so, but before.

Speaker 1: 21:32

So we're getting out of the parking lot yes, exactly so, christy, that, and so I was.

Speaker 2: 21:39

Just, I was at that point freaking out going wait mark, you were supposed to call me by now like cuz. Now she's chirping me. I'm like, oh my god, my phone's about to start blowing up. She's already on to me. I've not even made it out of the Walmart parking lot and she is on to me, so anyway. So so she goes okay, 10 for.

Speaker 1: 22:00

And then, thank goodness, like 10 seconds later, you call me okay, cuz I was supposed to call you at an exact like we had basically worked out a script of Of all the things that would happen along this escape and an exact mile, what each milestone time when something should happen. We knew like, okay, we have to do this at this point and then this at this point and then at this time you need to be here, so 1015.

Speaker 2: 22:29

So then I call you yes, and so you, you tell me okay, here's, here's what we're gonna do. You get to the bus station, turn back on your phone and call this company in Times Square with some audio visual company, and ask, or in New York, and ask them for, for directions of how to get there from Times Square. Okay, and then you were like and then hang up the phone, call me on the payphone and I'll tell you what to do. So I get to the. So sorry.

Speaker 2: 23:03

So, so we get to the Riverside bus station, I Go into the bathroom, take off my uniform pants and my belt and all that, stuff it in the garbage and I pull out my one pair of pants from my, from my jacket, my normal pair of pants, cuz I'm like you know, I don't know that the, the paranoia, the paranoia that had been programmed in I like, I just had these Ideas in my mind that there would, it was gonna be like a movie.

Speaker 2: 23:33

I mean, it was, it was like it, it was like a movie, but my, in my idea, but in my mind, like I had the idea of, like you know, private investigators and high-speed chases, and like with a photo, like have you seen this woman? You know, and In in all fairness, it wasn't that far off from that. But because of that I was trying to be like Incognito, like at the time my hair was long down past my butt and I so I had braided it and rolled it up so wouldn't be like a Striking, you know, like yeah the lady with the, the four-foot hair, that's exactly, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 24:18

Crazy ginger coming here with super long hair.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Yes, like trying to. I was trying to minimize any outstanding Characteristics that marked me as someone escaping from a cult. Let's just put it that way anyway. So so, bus station, riverside bus station. So I did, I, I changed, I got my ticket, I couldn't put it under an assumed name, and that kind of worried me.

Speaker 2: 24:42

And then I turned on my phone and I could already see, like the moment I turned it on, you know, when you fire it up you can see like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, all these messages. And I was just like, uh, don't look, don't look, don't look. And and so I called the number that you'd given me of the company. And it was so funny because, because I was all like Nervous and anxious and I hadn't even called a real company on the outside as Myself, without like a dead a script of what I was gonna say or the reason I was calling, so I was just like called and and some guy answers the phone and I'm like, how do I get there from Times Square? And he was like Google it. And I'm like, okay, thanks. And I so he's like, hang up that with. That did not go as I expected and then so I turned off my phone, and that was supposed to be it.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Like I was never supposed to turn that phone on ever again, because it belonged to the Scientology Organization and, as a result of that Ownership, they could track it Precisely and the only other thing I wanted to interject was that the reason I wanted you to call that company Is because they, if they checked the number and saw where it was for they would be like oh, this is an audio visual installation company. This must be where mark works now, so that they would assume that you were going there and that's where I might be. But even though I would, I suspected they already knew where I was but they didn't.

Speaker 1: 26:25

But they hadn't come there. So I was like, who knows, maybe they think that's just where I am now and I'm gonna end up and Claire and I are gonna reunite in New York.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Yeah, and that part of your plan didn't really register with me. I mean it does in retrospect, but I was, I, I Honestly was like they definitely know exactly where you are and that will be you. That will be proved later in this discussion of Sequence of events, but anyway, so yeah, so I make that call. And then I called you from the payphone at the bus station and it was funny to me because I could tell that even in this moment I don't think you were sure you could trust me.

Speaker 1: 27:06

I oh yeah, no, 100% it was. It was very. It was a roll of the dice that you weren't trying to get to me with them, or that you would somehow Get there and then be like okay, the real reason I'm here is because I'm I need to get you to come back, or you know Whatever it was right, like I.

Speaker 2: 27:29

I knew you to be always a Cynical and I and I could understand. But it was kind of funny like I got the impression from our conversations in this, in these moments, that if that you kind of thought it was too good to be true and therefore you were like a little bit on the fence anyway, whatever.

Speaker 1: 27:50

Okay, so then you get a ticket. Oh, and that's the other thing is, instead of going, there might be a more direct route from Hemet to where I was in In in Missouri and Lisa in Missouri, but we wanted to. We knew that they would be tracking the phone for a certain amount, so we wanted to make it look like you were going somewhere else, even if it wasn't just direct to where I was, and that was the other reason for the New York thing. We wanted to kind of make them not exactly know where you were going.

Speaker 1: 28:23

So yes we're supposed to get a ticket from Riverside to Barstow.

Speaker 2: 28:27

Yes.

Speaker 1: 28:29

And this is what that looks like. So there's a Riverside station and then this way up north you can see.

Speaker 2: 28:37

That's where the Barstow yeah station is yes, still, still not far enough away from the hole for my comfort, but, yes, getting in the right direction, away, yeah okay, so then you get to the Barstow station. Yes, and this is where I made my boo boo, basically. I mean, as you can see, it's in the middle of nowhere and I'm now starting to panic because I have to.

Speaker 1: 29:07

That's not exactly the middle of nowhere, it's well there it is. That's the middle of nowhere. Yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, no, and I'm like oh my gosh, I'm doing this.

Speaker 2: 29:18

First of all, I couldn't believe that I was actually escaping I was and second of all, I was like now I really need to get to mark, because otherwise I'm in like very hot water because I have no, I had oh and so. So when I went to the eye doctor's appointment, I had $200, okay, and then the bus, that the um cab ride from Walmart to To the Riverside bus station was $90, and then I think the ticket for this one was maybe $30. So I'm down.

Speaker 1: 29:57

And now I'm yeah, yeah, I bought you the ticket from Barstow to Lee's summit. That's right, all you had to do was go to the counter and get the ticket, like it was just sitting there waiting for you.

Speaker 2: 30:12

Yes, but in order to get that ticket, I had to call you, and so when I got to this bus station, this Barstow bus station, in the middle of nowhere, I couldn't find any pay phones that accepted coins. They only all accepted calling cards, and I. It's illogical in retrospect, but I panicked and you didn't even know what a calling card was.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Right and I didn't want to ask anybody because, again in my mind, I'm like that they're chasing after me already. I know they're coming. I don't want to be asking and make it look like I'm star man, like Create, like memorable moments in people's mind of like who the heck doesn't know what a calling card is, what is this telephone you speak of? You know, like whatever. So I turn the phone on and and the next cell phone on my organization phone.

Speaker 2: 31:09

I turned that on and I called you and the first thing you said was what are you doing? Like you're like this is off script, what the heck? And I was like I'm sorry, I panicked and I could have figure out how to call you and anyway, and you were like okay, ah Well, now we're gonna have to see what happens. And I remember just being like scared because you know I'm like, oh great, now I Didn't, I didn't understand, like I had never personally done a blow drill. But I knew I and I know knew of many examples where somehow they they figure out where people are. Scientology figures out and tracks people down. And now I know from talking to Jackson after getting out, that yeah, they kind of map out like what direction you're headed, figure out who you'd be headed to, and they might even map multiple Alternates to figure it out, which is crazy. But either way, you, you give me the ticket number. So I'm like okay. And you're like now turn it off and do not turn it back on again. I'm like okay, got it.

Speaker 2: 32:18

So, and the crazy part is I go to the ticket desk, the ticket counter, and give them the ticket number and of course there's signs all around the ticket counter that say calling cards available.

Speaker 1: 32:27

I'm like oh my gosh. They sell them right there, like there's like a little kiosk of them. You just grab one, say yeah, give me one, yes, completely.

Speaker 2: 32:38

I was like oh my gosh anyway.

Speaker 1: 32:41

So Okay, so then where's the next one you need to get? So that's barstow. So now you need to get from barstow To Las Vegas.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Yeah, and so tracking the timeline to, so this was Monday, january 24th 2005. My appointment at Walmart was 10, 15 am, and so by the time I got to barstow by now it's like 12, 30, 1 o'clock in the afternoon, and I think that the bus Was scheduled to leave from barstow at like 1, 30, and so now at least I had the ticket to get to you, so I kind of at least on that front, I started chilling out just a tad.

Speaker 1: 33:24

Um and the and the Vegas was just where there was a stop. So most of the time on these buses They'll go and there'll be stops, but you don't necessarily get off the bus but in, in and you can if you want to stretch your legs or use the facilities or get something to eat or whatever. But in Vegas you're actually going to switch to a different bus.

Speaker 2: 33:44

Yes, we had a 45 minute approximately layover and we were getting on a different bus and that actually was the only bus change in the entire trip from Like, from barstow to Kansas City. That was the one bus change. Okay and so, yeah, so we're. So I'm on the bus heading to barstow and it's crazy too, like I'd been sleeping maybe two, three hours a night.

Speaker 1: 34:15

You mean on the on the bus to Vegas?

Speaker 2: 34:18

Yeah, so, but leading up to the bus trip to Vegas yeah. I'm saying I've been getting barely any sleep, barely eating anything. I just could not sleep, like usually on a bus trip, you know, you doze off. It's like, oh yeah, I could not fall asleep, not not even like it was just completely wired um. And so, anyway, so long trip to to Vegas. We pull into Vegas. It's dark because it's January, so it's like six, six thirty at night and I and again 45 minute layover.

Speaker 2: 34:52

I saw that as we were pulling into the bus station, I saw there was a McDonald's there and I was like, oh, I could get a 99 cent cheeseburger At least, to get some some real food. I think I had a, a protein bar in my purse and that was it anyway. So so again we get into the bus station. I decided to just wait until everybody else got off the bus, um, and, and I think there was one other person still on the bus and I was like, um, maybe they're. There's some things up with them too. So then I kind of got a little spooked because I'm like why are they staying on the bus?

Speaker 1: 35:29

Yeah anyway.

Speaker 2: 35:30

So I'm like okay, get off the bus, get off the bus. I walked maybe four feet to the door of the bus station. Open the door, boom. Greg will hair and Sharon johnston are standing right there and those are two seaworth members from the international headquarters.

Speaker 1: 35:50

One from rtc, greg will hair, was in a religious technology center and Sharon johnston was in cmo it.

Speaker 2: 35:58

Yes, greg will hair is most famously known for being david miscavages crony and doing his bidding and uh for his involvement with celebrities, his involvement in recruiting a, a wife for tom cruise.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Anyway he's very schmoozy.

Speaker 2: 36:16

Yes, very schmoozy, but also like From my perspective in that moment, um. He's much taller, much bigger than I am and could very easily physically overwhelm me if he chose to.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Yeah and so. So I just walked. I kind of walked into the bus station and, and very quickly I realized I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is a moment in which I am failing. Uh, like I failed, you know, because I've now been caught. So I'm kind of doing a rapid assessment, like what do I do?

Speaker 2: 36:55

And they're like, uh, greg was doing all the talking, sharon was just standing behind him and I, and from what they said I knew that there were at least two other people in a car outside who were also there to bring me back. So, completely outnumbered by myself, this is my first time ever to Vegas, uh, first time ever on a greyhound bus, first time ever escaping you know, a lot of firsts going on here. And so I just decided, okay, I'm going to walk into the bus station, plop my purse down on the floor in the middle of the bus station and sit down. Because my, my thought and theory was well, at least, if they try to, um, drag me out of there, that I could scream, and hopefully I don't know somebody might call 911. Maybe, hopefully, anyway, that was my Uh thought and and but still, I didn't know, because I know they have dragged people into vehicles before and you know, so there's, there was kind of nothing that Couldn't happen in that moment.

Speaker 1: 38:07

From my, from what I've seen and witnessed, you know, yeah, your imagination is going wild because you know you've heard stories of how they've gotten people back before. So it's sort of Nothing's off the table in terms of if you put yourself in a situation where they can get the advantage, they're gonna use the advantage. It's that's almost a given. So and I know a lot of times they try to get somebody to go to a place like, well, let's go get something to eat or something so they can get you into a vehicle that you're now gonna go get something to eat, and then you never end up going to the restaurant to get anything to eat. You just stay in the vehicle and then that's it.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yes, which, which that was one of the first things. Greg said let's go get something to eat. And factor in like I had you know how how much weight I'd lost. I was literally skin and bones. I was like Not even a hundred pounds and I'm five, seven, was massively underweight, sick and and anorexic. I guess like no, I wasn't anorexic, that's, that's not the right word when you're under so much stress. I'm a seeded. Yeah, like I was not nauseous 24-7. I could not eat it, just was I. I was never hungry and so at a certain point I couldn't stop losing weight, so the thought of a meal was Having escaped. I was really looking forward to a meal for the first time. So then when Greg said, oh, let's go get something, let's go, let's go get some food and talk about this, and I was like Nope, not doing it, nope, and that's when I. That was in that moment, or shortly before or after that, when I sat down on my purse and and it was so just in the middle of the bus station.

Speaker 1: 40:05

Yeah, yeah, I was desperate, I on the floor or in a chair.

Speaker 2: 40:09

No, I. So I put my purse down on the floor and sat on my purse and I just was losing my mind. I, you know, looking back on it like I don't even remember the exact Thought process, but I know that in my mind I was just theoretically plugging my ears because I knew no matter what, do not engage in, do not engage with them, do not engage in the conversation, like that's would be the end of me.

Speaker 2: 40:41

Yeah and you know the few snippets of the things that I remember Greg Wilhair saying was One of the things. Well, he demanded your phone number and I felt it was a trick because he was trying to prove that I had been breaking their rules and that I'd been talking to you. So I just said you have his phone number and, sure enough, he sent somebody off to go call you. I didn't give him your phone number.

Speaker 1: 41:11

That they called you on my end, greg, and it was Greg that called me.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Okay himself.

Speaker 1: 41:17

He called me and said we have Claire, we're in Las Vegas, at the Greyhound bus station, we have Claire and she's coming back to us, she works, she's coming back to, we're taking her back to the base. And so you, she's not coming yet. She's not meeting you and if you are smart, you'll come back to the base too. Otherwise you're never gonna see her again.

Speaker 1: 41:39

So at this point it's in the afternoon or late, early evening actually, because I remember it was dark outside in Kansas City and in Lee Summit, where I was, and and and it was it had just been snowing for the past few weeks or days or whatever, and I was outside on the sidewalk, pacing up and down the street, going like, oh, what's happened? What's happened? Because I couldn't, I didn't hear from you when you got to Vegas. I didn't know from you. I didn't hear from you. We knew the way the Greyhound schedules are. They're pretty to the minute in most cases, like if it says it's gonna roll into Las Vegas at 11, you know 12, 11 minutes and 11 o'clock and 12 minutes. It comes at 11 and 12 minutes.

Speaker 1: 42:26

It's like it's pretty accurate yeah so we had all these bus timetables that we were going off of and you never called, you never called, you never called, you, never called. So I was sort of like, oh my gosh, what's going on? What's going on? And then I get the call but it's not from you and I don't know the number. And as soon as I answer, it's Greg Wilhair, and then he tells me that you're going back. So I'm just like, oh, like, so close, we almost had it, like I was and I was, and then I, but I was thinking to myself, this could be a trick. I don't know that they have her, this could be a trick to get me to go back, even though she, they didn't get her. So I was like we got to wait, we got to wait, we got to wait. Okay, so then continue. So then what happens on?

Speaker 2: 43:09

yeah, oh yeah, and so that's right. We had talked about that too when I was leaving from barstow that I was to call. I was going to call you every time I got to a stop. That's right. Yes, so you, you were tipped off right away. I had forgotten that part, but you already knew before you got the call from Greg that there was a good chance something was going wrong.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Yeah, and you can also. At that time you could go on the greyhound site and I think you could see where the bus was, or that had it had checked in, or it had arrived, or you know whatever it was. And so that because the time had passed and because you didn't call um, I knew that something was up. And then when Greg called, I was just I was literally I, I think I was heartbroken at that point because I had already given up hope that you would escape. And then when you called me and we like it was like oh my gosh, she could do it. And so then I got my hopes up that you would escape. And then when he called, it was like oh no, we got her, she's coming back. You're never gonna. And he made a point to say that you're never going to see her again. Like that's it. You, that's done, you know it's over uh, yeah, dagger to the heart intentionally.

Speaker 2: 44:25

Um, yeah, so he like, the whole time as I'm sitting on the floor on my purse, and the whole time he's just Like going at me from every single angle possible. First, uh, I, we told mark, you're not coming. He's coming back. They told me you were coming back to Um, they told me that my family's lives were going to be destroyed. He's like, what if, what if david, miss scavage were here right now? Like, okay, he's not, thank thank goodness, um, and no, even more. So, let me the heck out of here. Um, and what about your dog? I'm like, oh my god, like the, you know, uh, every single possible thing he could try to throw at me. He even told me that the reason I was there is because, uh, the reason I was escaping is because Something had gone wrong with my counseling and body Theytans were controlling me, the freewheeling that we talked about the other night. He was like you're freewheeling? Like no, I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm thoroughly controlled, wheeling the heck out of here.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Anyway, all these things and any threatened to come out to follow me on the bus. Um and so, fact, you're in was. So we started in gillman hot springs, california. Now we're in las vegas, nevada. So they've crossed state lines chasing after me. Of course, I had no clue that this was of any significance at the time, and and it's so ironic to me, the depth of programming that it didn't just occur to me to call 911, but that that thought never crossed my mind once. Because those are the, those are the bad guys.

Speaker 2: 46:18

You just don't do that.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Yeah, and you got a factor in. There was a chance that you weren't going to las vegas. You could have been going anywhere from barstow. They sent four people To vegas and they got there before you did and they were ready to go. They were like she's coming and she's gonna be on this bus and you were. So that's another just factor. Like we don't know what other bus stations they sent people to, we don't know what other things were involved in this, we just know they guessed one of them, right at least, and that was the las vegas station. So, yeah, okay, so then you're sitting on your purse.

Speaker 2: 47:02

Great, I'm yeah but I, you're right, I'm yeah, no, and you're right, I'm sure that they had people at my parents house in los angeles and you know, with my sisters anyway, yeah, so I'm on the purse, sitting on the purse, okay, so now the layover is coming to an end and people are starting to line up, so I go and get in line. They're still standing with me the whole time.

Speaker 1: 47:30

Oh, they're just while you're sitting on the floor. They're just standing right next to you.

Speaker 2: 47:34

Yes, yes, the whole time going on and on and on and, like I said, I had to literally not engage, not say anything, not listen, because I knew that they, what, everything they were doing, was carefully crafted to manipulate me and to go and back with them. And if I even cooperated, one Iota, that would embolden them to maybe drag me out of there or maybe just like you know. So I had to. It was like I had to imagine I was in a brick enclosure or something to not let them get through to me.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Anyway, so I get on the bus and at that point they he threatened to follow me on the bus, but he didn't. And I knew he didn't have a ticket, and I also knew that it would require David Miscavige's approval for him to get on that bus. And I we had talked before in another episode how my timing of escaping coincided with David Miscavige being in Clearwater, florida very intentionally. So so I the chances of him getting that approval before I got on that bus were really, really slim, and anyway, so I get on the bus. That's not to say that they might not follow the bus, but he didn't get on the bus as he threatened to, and so the second I got on the bus. Of course I turned on my organization phone because they know where I am now what's?

Speaker 2: 49:01

the point. And I call you and say I'm on the bus.

Speaker 1: 49:06

You know, when you called me and you were like, okay, I'm on the bus, I was like, oh my gosh, what happened? They told me that they got you. And then you're like, yeah, they told me they got you. And I was just like, oh my goodness, this is so like if either one of us would would had fallen for the lie, then we would have been, we would have been crossing back in the other direction, like I would have been on the way there and you would have been on the way out, and it would have been like, oh great, now we're stuck again.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Yeah, which that exact scenario of us crossing was like. I was having nightmares about that the whole time, from the moment you escaped. That was my greatest fear and, to be fair, they had caught me. They just you know. Luckily, for whatever you know. I was in a well populated enough space that they weren't going to take their chances and drag me out of there.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Let's get back to the map. So okay, so now you're at the. So now the next place you've got to get to is you've got to get from Las Vegas all the way to Missouri. Now this is a trek. Okay, remember, I told you guys about those timetables. I literally had a timetable of every place that she was going to stop along this entire path to get to where I was, and I want to say it took a while. It took like a day and a half, right.

Speaker 2: 50:35

Yeah, because, yeah, because. So this started on Monday 10, 15 am. By the time I got to Kansas City it was like 6 pm on Wednesday, I think.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Wow, Okay, so let's go to where you got in Kansas City. So this is the downtown Kansas City bus station. Yep Is where you were. It's near downtown. Let's see where downtown is. Yeah, I think that's close to downtown. I think this is like kind of downtown area right next to that. Okay, so then you get. So yeah, so then it takes all that time you finally get to there and then from there, well, I pick you up there. So that's the first time I've seen you in basically three weeks.

Speaker 2: 51:24

Yeah, actually maybe so maybe it was Tuesday night, I'm not sure, but either way it was a really long drive, yeah, but every stop after that I did get off the bus and call you, and I also. It took at least two more states before I stopped being worried that Greg Wilher was going to show up. The second I got off the bus and even then I was like double checking and cross checking and it was so bizarre, like I hadn't talked to people in the real world, I didn't know how to interact with them. Like I remember this one woman on the bus. She was like you know, oh, just the chit chat. Like, oh, where are you headed? Kansas City, oh, what are you doing there? I'm going to see my husband, and you know, I didn't really know what to say. Or this guy, this one guy, was like oh, where are you headed? Oh, kansas City. Oh, you're moving there. Yeah, oh, do you have a lot of stuff? No, oh, anyway, whatever it was, it was it was funny, it was just like.

Speaker 2: 52:33

But then then I started to go like oh well, if I talk to people, if they do show up at one of the bus stations and try to kidnap me, then at least, like I will have talked to some people, there will be traces of Claire Like. So there was some intentional interactions from my end as well on that, to make sure that you know there was a record of me trying to make it to you.

Speaker 1: 52:58

Anyway, it was crazy, it was crazy and when you finally got to the bus station, it was like we did it.

Speaker 2: 53:05

We did it.

Speaker 1: 53:06

It was the biggest.

Speaker 2: 53:08

I want to say, like it was just one of those moments where you just like I can't believe we pulled this off, like we knew it was impossible and somehow we were able to do it, and so and I think in that in those those days and those times there were there were periods of time that, at least speaking for myself, I knew the chances of me ever seeing you again were really slim, like it was not, it was not looking good at all, not only because I didn't know how to get out of there, but also because of the pressures of you know I just it was, it felt impossible.

Speaker 1: 53:49

Yeah, it really did. And it was also one of those things where my dad so at that my dad was the one who lived in Lee's summit that I went to stay with when I first escaped, and so he was also like you know, when I first got there, what about Claire? I was like, oh, I don't think she's gonna be able to come, I don't think she's gonna get out of there, they're not gonna let her leave, and I haven't been able to get ahold of her, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, when you got ahold of me, I was like dad, I think we might be able to get Claire. Can she come and stay here too? And he was like, of course she can. You kidding me? Like absolutely.

Speaker 1: 54:29

And so then when Greg called me that one time and I went back inside and I was like, oh my God, they caught her and they intercepted her or whatever. I can't remember if he was there or if I called him, but I remember being like, oh man, we got so close, so close. And then when you finally called, I was like, oh no, we got her, she's coming, she's coming. You know, it was just like the ups and downs, the roller coaster of this trip was insane and me just sitting on this computer screen, like literally taking a nap on the desk and then setting an alarm for the next stop that would get up on the, so that I would be able to get up and make sure that you got to the next stop, and just following along for the whole next day of travel.

Speaker 2: 55:15

Yeah, yeah. Set aside all the years we spent in Scientology, I'm sure we both have remnants of PTSD just from this one day alone, goodness.

Speaker 1: 55:25

Yeah, and the funny thing is is that even then we only had what you know. Basically, I had like a small little suitcase that I was able to put on the back of my motorcycle, but it was like a carry, like a small carry on, and also we didn't have winter clothes because we never lived anywhere where it snowed or it was even really that cold. Sometimes in the desert in California it gets a little cold, but not like below zero or not like blizzard conditions.

Speaker 2: 55:56

Yeah, not even snow.

Speaker 1: 55:58

Yeah, so we were going to Lee Summit, missouri, and this was in 2005. And I'm pretty sure that they had a pretty good snow season that year, enough that it was like, oh, there's snow here for sure. Yeah, like there's no question, it's cold. So we, you know, even when Claire got there, that was when it was like, okay, good, now we have to start Like this, is it? It's 2005, january 2005, and we're out. What are we gonna do? And that's sort of where it was like, okay, we got to figure out how to live in the real world now.

Speaker 2: 56:36

Yeah, yeah, totally yeah. So you picked me up at the bus station. The most amazing moment of being reunited in my whole life? Yeah, that was definitely like never gonna forget. No, and it was like day one of marriage too, outside of Scientology, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:00

I always remember the time and I think if it wasn't, I don't know if it was that night or it was very shortly thereafter when we were kind of just hanging out at the house and my dad would work. He was a computer technician and that is actually what I ended up doing when I first left too. I was being a computer repair technician and but he would be gone during the week working for IBM or Dell, depending on what at during the time, what company he worked for. But he was installing Walmarts and installing banks and computer systems for like enterprise computer networks for corporations, and so we would just be there during the week like what do we do I always fix in computers and stuff. And you'd said one night you said, hey, do you want I could make spaghetti bolognese for dinner tonight? And I was like really. And you were like yeah, and I was like you know how to cook.

Speaker 1: 57:54

We had been married for 13 years before that conversation and I didn't even know that you knew how to cook after 13 years. That's how much like that's how married life in the C-Org is you don't have. The dynamics of that relationship are completely different in the C-Organization compared to in the real world.

Speaker 2: 58:17

Yes, yeah, and of course we talked about that for a second on the Aftermath series, the first episode that we were in of season one. But talking about it now, it is context to understand that it really was the first day one, the first day of the rest of our lives. And I remember that we went to Denny's like you picked me up from the bus station, we had the big hug, the memorable, like oh my gosh. And then we went to Denny's and I was like, okay, now seriously, what the heck was leaving me behind.

Speaker 1: 58:57

It all worked out, babe. It was all part of my plan, I know.

Speaker 2: 59:02

I know, I know, but I was like I remember feeling so strongly I had to get that out of my system, like I understood, but still, like, still, you know. But again, that speaks to the dynamics of a relationship in Scientology that we couldn't even, you know, we never, even, had ever once talked about escaping or getting out or starting over, never once. And so, you know, because it was not a safe environment to do so, we weren't able to say anything.

Speaker 1: 59:37

So anyway, I couldn't speak freely, even with your spouse, because you don't know who's listening. You don't know if they're gonna rat you out. You don't know if somebody else is gonna rat you out. You don't know if, once your spouse talks about it, they're gonna show signs like they're just gonna be nervous or whatever. Like in the C organization and specifically in Scientology, how you act and how you react to things, they attach significances to everything. So if you're acting a little funny in a conversation or in front of a certain person or something, they're very in tune to that to go like, wait a minute, that person's got something going on and then you can just be restricted, just based on your nervous demeanor. You could be restricted to the property. There's all sorts of things that, depending on how you're acting, other people can choose or not, choose to kind of clamp down on your freedoms if they think that you might be going to the rogue.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

Right, like there's even drills from Hubbard of all the different what is it called body indicators, like the sweat or the eye movement or the all those things, like they are trained to be watching for all of those things, and so avoiding detection is really, really, really difficult.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

You gotta be a really good actor when you're trying to GTFO and not let them know that that's what you're about to do. Yep, Awesome babe. Well, this was a great episode. I made it. I made it. Yay, we're here now, and here I am today.

Speaker 2: 1:01:22

So thanks for everyone listening and, you know, thanks for being there for me when I needed it, honey, and thanks for helping me get out, and thanks for getting out in the first place.

Speaker 1: 1:01:32

So yeah, we made it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

Yes, success yes.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

Awesome guys. Well, thank you, thank you for tuning in, and we've got a lot of new series coming up. We just got informed by somebody that does a bunch of web and internet stuff for us that it looks like Scientology is pumping out the Mark Headley ads on Google again. So whenever we see Scientology paying for ads on my search results, we know we've hit a vein. So we're gonna keep doing what we're doing on the channel. We're gonna keep doing where, as Shelly episodes, we've got a whole bunch of new series and new topics and videos that we're gonna start doing. And yeah, we're gonna keep on doing this, guys. And yeah, we appreciate all the people that are supporting and watching the content and yeah, anything else.

Speaker 2: 1:02:26

When our stats are up, ose's stats are down, so we're gonna keep on going.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

Nice guys. Thanks, thank you, guys, and until next time.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

Bye.

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

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