Unveiling the Fate of Shelly Miscavige: Inner Circle Insights and the Enigmatic Disappearance Within Scientology - Where is Shelly Miscavige? #20

Could you imagine vanishing from the public eye, your life dictated by a regime so rigid that even your closest relationships are at stake? Our latest episode takes you behind the veil of Scientology with a former insider, revealing the haunting fate of Shelly Miscavige, wife of Scientology leader David Miscavige. From the depths of her influence to her sudden and perplexing disappearance, we unravel the threads of power, fear, and control that may have ensnared her.

This week, we're joined by a guest whose firsthand experiences at Scientology's international headquarters lay bare the extreme practices within the organization. Delving into a world where cathode-ray tube monitors are feared as hypnotic devices and purification rundowns are the norm, we expose the lengths to which Shelly Miscavige went to enforce L. Ron Hubbard's teachings. Our conversation sheds light on the bizarre intersections of technology, influence, and the extraordinary measures taken to maintain the church's iron grip.

Your heart will race as we recount tales of near escapes from Scientology's seemingly impenetrable compound and the relentless witch hunts for dissenters. The episode crescendos with the startling role Shelly Miscavige allegedly played in orchestrating the personal life of none other than Tom Cruise, further entwining the church with the allure of celebrity. Prepare for a sobering look into the dynamics that likely played a role in one woman's mysterious withdrawal from public life, as we connect the dots of this chilling narrative.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Shelly Miscavige. She has not appeared in public since 2005. Where is Shelly and what happened? We're looking at like 17 years of a person just missing. Shelly Miscavige was given into the soul peer of Elrond Hubbard by her parents when she was 12.

Speaker 3: 0:21

This is where Shelly is believed to be being held captive. Do you believe that Shelly Miscavige is a threat today.

Speaker 1: 0:30

Oh, absolutely. She's seen it all. She's been by his side the whole time.

Speaker 1: 1:01

We're going to talk about the continuation of the when is Shelly Miscavige series, and in past videos we talked about Claire and I talked to each other about Claire's history at the international headquarters and working with Shelly Miscavige, and the point that we got up to in our last video was when you were assigned to be an RTC representative in Florida and you were overseeing the training and the implementation of other religious technology C-org members religious technology C-org members in different continents and places to be RTC reps and right before you were supposed to be posted as the RTC rep for Celebrity Center, you were brought back to the international headquarters.

Speaker 3: 1:52

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:54

So that's where we're going to pick up today.

Speaker 3: 1:57

Yes, and we'll link to part one of this conversation for anyone who missed that, and just as the overview. Obviously, shelly Miscavige was second in command. During the entire time we worked at the headquarters. She was with Dave 24-7, david Miscavige not only as his wife, but more so and primarily as his assistant, and so it was obviously very huge to hear that she had been removed altogether and vanished for all intents and purposes, in 2006. And so now she and in terms of contact with even her family I think the last contact she had with even any of her family was 2014. So now that's an awful long time for a human being to be isolated. That was the inspiration for doing this series in the first place is to continue. The important question where, as Shelly, because it emphasizes and epitomizes what's wrong, or one of the many things that are wrong with Scientology in terms of their capacity to do this to a human being- yeah, so when you ended up going back to the base, what year was that?

Speaker 3: 3:25

That was January 2000 and no sorry January 1997.

Speaker 1: 3:33

That's right. Okay, good, so that's right. After the Golden Age of tech was released and all of these courses, new courses that Scientologists were being demanded to do and required to do, was just implemented the year before, in 1996. And then that's when, also when all these RTC reps were established, because there didn't used to be RTC reps in every single continent. No yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3: 4:04

And the purpose of those representatives at each organization. One of their primary purposes was to give David Miscavige quote eyes and ears on the ground, somebody that was loyal to him and was the police part of the respect to general network of Scientology, able to go in at all different levels and do whatever David Miscavige wanted done. So that was one of the primary purposes of establishing those positions and they were established in Europe, in Australia, in Los Angeles, where else in UK. And I think those were the oh and also yeah.

Speaker 3: 4:51

Florida, of course. Yeah, florida. They had already been in office there, so this was now expanding this program so that there were religious technology center staff all over the world.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Okay. So when you got back to the base so you're not going to be a religious technology center representative at Celebrity Center you go back to the base. Okay, then tell us what happens then.

Speaker 3: 5:16

Yes, so at the time there was a unit within religious technology center called ABC, authorization, verification and correction, and their primary responsibility and role was to oversee the management of Scientology. So, for example, any communication going out from management executives at that headquarters had to be authorized by RTC, by ABC. And so I was Shelley assigned, shelley Miscavige assigned me to be the director of correction in ABC, so the C of correction, and what that meant is that I was responsible for working with the management executives from the, you know, the top down. So Mark Yeager, mark Engberg, guillaume LeServe, all the anyone that was at that time well known in the world of Scientology as an executive. I was then responsible for making sure they were doing what David Miscavige told them to do.

Speaker 1: 6:25

And if they weren't doing it then they had to be corrected, and that usually involved them studying or restudying some Elron Hubbard policies or getting interrogated to find out what their crimes were or what they were doing instead of their job.

Speaker 3: 6:42

Right, because in Scientology the premise is that if you're not doing what you're told, if you're non-compliant, if you're changing what you're told to do, then nine times out of 10, the reason for that is because you have transgressions that you need to confess to. And then, once you've relieved yourself of those transgressions, then you can study the Hubbard policies that you're supposed to be doing, study the David Miscavige orders. So oftentimes, actually, even at that point, it had already started changing to where the primary emphasis was on what David Miscavige ordered, not necessarily what Hubbard had ordered. And so, yes, that was. And so a primary part of my role as well from that point forward in January 1997 was then attending all the many meetings that David Miscavige had with management executives, to take notes and to make sure that you know, just to know what he was telling them to do, to then play a role in making sure that they did those things.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And Shelley was at almost all of those meetings as well. Yes, I mean, during that time period, shelley was always with Dave. If it was at a meeting or he was just walking through a production area or doing an inspection anything, shelley was there for that. And was Shelley the one that was giving you directives or telling you who that needed to be handled, or how did that work exactly?

Speaker 3: 8:16

Yes, good question. So at that time things were already starting to go south. I mean, not that they hadn't been previously, but the progression was getting worse and worse. In terms of David Miscavige would very often involve physical violence. In those meetings with the involved executives he would often lose his temper. He would often have people hauled out for handlings.

Speaker 3: 8:48

Shelly was always at that time trying to figure out what to do to fix things to get the executives performing to David Miscavige's liking. But I think already at that point. So we're talking now, 1997, 1998. Shelly had expressed several times to me and to some other RTC staff that she was really concerned about David Miscavige and that she thought he'd had a psychotic break. She didn't provide a whole lot of details as to what was making her say that, but she was working really hard to get David Miscavige into Scientology's counseling. At the time I was working very closely with another RTC staff member named Angie Trent. I think she was actually the highest trained person on that property. She was a Class 12 auditor, which is the highest that you can go, and she was also OTA, which is still the highest you can go In terms of the counseling.

Speaker 3: 10:08

Yes, in terms of the grade chart, scientology's levels, she was at the very top. That was why she'd been brought into religious technology center and why Shelly felt that she would be a good person to counsel him and take him into session, as it's called in Scientology.

Speaker 1: 10:31

I just want to rewind real quick. Was that before or after John Eastman? And what was that? Miriam? There was a bunch of people that were on that list to become his auditor in over the years. I think it started with Ray Middoth and then who was the senior CS international, then John Eastman, who was the senior CS international, and then was then Angie after those guys.

Speaker 3: 10:58

Yes, she was well after those people because she had all of his folders. So when you receive counseling in Scientology, every single counseling session is recorded. Every word you say is written down. The questions you're asked is written down, the response from the emeter is written down, the end result is written down, everything.

Speaker 3: 11:24

And so Angie had his David Miscavige's folders and he had not been received any counseling since 1993. And that was 1993, as when John Eastman, I think, was the last person who had audited David Miscavige. And so Shelly was pushing very, very hard to have Angie get ready and plan everything. And Angie was working on preparing for this for at least two months. And then it was a matter of David Miscavige needed to get enough sleep to go into session. Anyway, long story short, that never happened.

Speaker 3: 12:07

But my point of even bringing this up is the fact that Shelly said he'd had a psychotic break and she was worried he was going to, things were going to get much worse, which of course they did. But she even back then in 1998, shelly was seeing things go south pretty quickly. This was also during the time and the significant events in Scientology's history when the lawsuits were ongoing in relation to the tragic death of Lisa MacPherson, who died at the Fort Harrison Hotel and who, david Miscavige, had been directly involved in overseeing the auditing and counseling that was done with Lisa MacPherson prior to her death. So that was bringing, yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Well, I was just going to say in the end, even though David Miscavige was directly telling the counselors at the Florida, at the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Florida, even though he was telling them exactly what to do, he was doing it via the RTC rep office that was in Florida and the person that was the RTC rep in Florida was Angie Trent.

Speaker 3: 13:28

Yes.

Speaker 1: 13:29

And so that when later on now he's supposed to get audited by Angie Trent and this lawsuit is blowing up, he then she got in trouble because she was involved with the Lisa MacPherson, that whole horrible situation, and so wasn't. She made a dishwasher in Golden Air Productions, the highest trained Scientologist in the world that's also supposed to audit David Miscavige. She did end up being assigned a dishwasher and so she never did end up doing any counseling with David Miscavige.

Speaker 3: 14:03

Right, yes, exactly. David Miscavige claimed that it was way too much of a distraction and a reminder of those ongoing lawsuits to have Angie do any counseling with him, and so shortly thereafter she ended up as a dishwasher in the galley, so in the food service facility that provided all the meals to everyone that lived at that property. Yeah, she was.

Speaker 1: 14:33

Wasn't there other things that Shelly did? I remember, like whenever we were staying up all night and all day doing getting things ready for a Scientology event or getting something ready for David Miscavige. There was a problem that the staff, because they'd been up for so many nights and days and nights, they were falling asleep and didn't. Shelly had some kind of concoction that she would have made to give to us and we would have to drink this concoction.

Speaker 3: 15:01

There were a few evolutions of those types of things. Yes, I think at one point it was wheatgrass juice. So there were all these like plates of plants that then would get, you know, mincefied, like purified, pulverized. Pulverized is the right word, it wasn't even juice. Well, no, it wasn't juice, it was more than that. It was more than that, like it was literally pulverized. And yes, it was like, but it was like this thick grassy juice. And then other times there was she was having like supertonic, that garlic super strong concoction.

Speaker 1: 15:44

And another time rock and fuel.

Speaker 3: 15:46

Rock and fuel was a different thing. Yes, rock and fuel was a separate thing to supertonic, and then another time she was making all the top executives do enemas.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Oh, I'm glad I missed that. On that one I'm going to touch the board on that one.

Speaker 1: 16:03

That's a real thing, because they were toxic. They were. I mean, that was the thing it was always there was. I think there was another time period when a lot of us were being accused of like being zombies or something, or being what was. That Wasn't there something?

Speaker 3: 16:20

Yeah, so this was in 98, going into 99, I think. Shelly had me do this whole project, so it lasted about six months where I was sending her a report every single day, and the short version of the story is that Shelly was trying to understand why these top executives who were go-getters, gung-ho, enthusiastic, like a flag or in other places, and then they would come to this property and everything would fall apart and all of a sudden they were just non-performing and they were downtrodden. And of course in retrospect you go well, yeah, the closer you get to David Miscavige, the worse things get. Everybody knows that. But Shelly was trying to handle this and so this project that she had me do was she had me research thousands and thousands of documents written by Elron Hubbard that people didn't have access to, to research if computer screens were causing hypnotism of the people using them, because the management executives would sit in front of these cathode-ray tube computer screens for hours, all day. Yeah, 18 hours a day, easily, sometimes 24 hours a day. So it was literally like a scientific I shouldn't say scientific, a Scientological test where I had to. So she picked I think it was 20 of the key executives, maybe it was 15, I don't remember, but I remember one of them being Diane Cannaeus, because she had been an executive in Clearwater who was very instrumental in getting the whole Golden Age of Tech training launch completed. She was a key person in that, and so she had been brought to the base to be overall training international and she was not doing well at all. She was constantly in trouble with David Miscavige, so she was somebody who was on that list.

Speaker 3: 18:44

Mark Engber, guillaume LeServe, mark Yeager, I think maybe not Mark Yeager because he was on the Rehabilitation Project Force, which that's another story we'll talk about but so a lot of the key executives. So I had to do a whole battery of Scientology tests with them. So the Oxford Capacity Analysis test, the IQ test, the aptitude test and, of course, as you and I both know, anyone who's reached that point has done these tests hundreds of times, hundreds of times. So, yes, the aptitude test is a timed test. Oh, the leadership test is another one. Anyway, the point being that when you've done these tests so many times, you're not really getting a fair shake, if you will. But either way, the project that Shelly had me doing was do a whole battery of tests. Have all these executives do these tests and then swap out their computer screens to LED screens and then periodically, Even though they have tons and tons of money, they're not spending it on the staff or the employees.

Speaker 1: 20:04

So even in the late 1990s, even though LED screens have been out for years and years, almost everyone there still had the big giant CRT screens. And some of us most of us had monochrome, these monochrome tube CRT TVs called CUME workstations and they were like a green screen. The text was green against a kind of a milky background. And these things they were white when we bought them but they were yellow from cigarette smoke from the C-Worg members for 20 or 30 years and we had to put LED screens. We were starting to have to put LED screens in front of all those CRT screens during this time for anybody who couldn't get a new LED screen.

Speaker 3: 20:49

Yes, and so part of Shelley's theory was that hypnotism was a piece of it, and then also radiation was a piece of it. And so this is the project that then ultimately later led to Shelley deciding that most everybody, no-transcript in an executive position, would have to redo the purification rundown. And because it hadn't been done properly according to Shelley and Amy Scoby talks about this too because she was on the purification rundown for, I think, months and months and months, and at super high levels of niacin, which is at those doses to my understanding, and I'm no scientist but it's carcinogenic levels to take that much niacin. And of course, when you do the purification rundown you're supposed to keep doing it until you get no more reaction. So if you keep having a reaction you have to keep doing the program.

Speaker 1: 21:54

And we're talking about 15,000 milligrams of niacin, like tons and tons. I don't remember the exact amount.

Speaker 3: 22:02

No, it went up to 5,000 milligrams. There you go, 5,000 milligrams a day, including and that that was just one vitamin. You had to take equal proportions of a lot of other vitamins with that. So by the time you reach the end of the purification rundown, you'd be like have a whole, like a massive handful of vitamins, and then you're also supposed to be drinking CalMag, the calcium magnesium drink, and less than an and oil.

Speaker 3: 22:36

Yeah, so you're, because you're supposed to be replacing the toxins in your body with all these other things not, not medically endorsed, not medically proven. I don't think it's even been medically studied. So, yeah, so, yeah, anyway, the point being that Shelly was she was very much at that stage trying to still holding out hope that somehow she could use Hubbard's ideas to make things better. You know she was. I always thought that she was a very dedicated, firm believer.

Speaker 3: 23:17

She would tell me stories all the time about working with Elrond Hubbard when she was a young girl on on the ship and anyway so. But yeah, so that that was an example of one of the projects she had me do and it ended up being something that David Mascavage briefed the whole property on, like he would do these briefings to everybody in in the dining hall. It would get converted into a massive, you know, seats for everybody. Everybody had to attend mandatory attendance except for, like, a skeleton security crew. But, yeah, so that that that was an example of a project that I did for Shelly. And again, I was writing daily reports to her saying here's, here's what got done. I would send her packs and packs and packs of all the Hubbard advices and Hubbard writings that I had poured through, trying to find what he'd said about anything remotely relevant to hypnotism and non performance of management, and anyway, on and on.

Speaker 1: 24:27

So there is a Hubbard writing somewhere that says TV will hypnotize you. Right, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 3: 24:35

And that's why that came out in the mid to, or maybe early 80s I think, like 82, 83, because that's when, I mean, I was in the cadet organization at in England and that's when all the TVs were first taken away, because we weren't, we weren't told why. As a kid I had no idea. I was like man, our life already sucks, and now they've taken TV away, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:07

So then, what are some of the other things? Because at a certain point you're the director of correction religious technology center and you're working with Shelly on these different projects At us. Was there anything else that happened when you were director of correction? That happened before you got promoted to the, to the next post in our TZ.

Speaker 3: 25:27

Yes. So starting in end of 98 and early 99 was when Marty Rathbin resumed his position as inspector general and he was now so. He was now the head of our head of religious technology center. He was David Miscavige's right hand man and he put incredible emphasis on interrogations and security checking and rollbacks, which is where, like any, any person non performing or doing something other than what they're supposed to be doing, or even voicing a critical thought, they would get put on the emeter and asked who gave you that idea? Like you know, you did X. Who are you talking to?

Speaker 3: 26:17

Just before that, and it was like, became this witch hunt type mentality, much more so than it had even been previously, and Marty would always send up reports of these interrogations to David Miscavige. So if, if David Miscavige ordered somebody to get interrogated, marty would take them, interrogate them and then send a report to David Miscavige to say what that person had confessed to. And so Marty started doing all these seminars, I think or seminars, not the right word but like these classes to train all the ethics officers, all the ethics officers on the property, all the MAA, master at Arms, the anyone responsible for doing this, to make sure that they were doing it thoroughly and doing it properly, and he had. He was directly supervising that, and my point of that is that it's it just. It literally started deteriorating into a witch hunt.

Speaker 3: 27:29

Also around that time, david Miscavige was doing issued a number of evaluations for various different things, and this is when David Miscavige decided that all the organizing boards, the structure charts of every single organization, had to be completely redone, and so this just led to a period of time where we were getting very, very little sleep, maybe two, three hours a night doing all these investigations. This was also when the follow the money strategy came in from David Miscavige If somebody is misperforming, then they had to be getting kickbacks of some kind, in his view. He also started just dictating what what somebody's crimes were, and Marty would take them off and wouldn't come back until the person had confessed to that, which already then I was starting to go like well, wait a minute, you know? How can you possibly?

Speaker 2: 28:31

know what the person has done.

Speaker 1: 28:32

I remember that there was one guy that that had happened to and he was the person that replaced me in manufacturing and I then went on to go do another post in the Cine Division or something like that. But the guy that replaced me, his name was Al and he had been in the Navy and he worked on a nuclear submarine. That was what his post was when he was in the Navy. And so David Miscavige had basically said that guy's a plant, because there's no way you could get those kind of clearances or whatever, and then he should never have been able to get to the international headquarters. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And I remember he got taken off, interrogated for months and months and months and months and months, and then in the end he just went back to post. I was like, yeah, no, he was, he was in the Navy, he was like he was on the submarine. That was that. That's what happened.

Speaker 2: 29:24

He wasn't a plant.

Speaker 3: 29:26

Yeah, there was the same theory about Wendell Reynolds who had been over all Scientology Management finances for decades and I can't remember what it was, but there was something from Wendell's past, like when he was a teenager, or something that was slightly nefarious or is part of some motorcycle gang or something I can honestly can't remember. But yeah, it was all these conspiracy theories of you know that, that David Mascavige and Shelley. Both were like, oh, this person you know this person has been sent in find out what, who they're reporting to, who they're taking orders from. You know they started doing they had Marty start doing PDH checks. So it's for pain drug, hypnosis, which is how Hubbard deemed that somebody would be turned into a plant is through use of pain drug and hypnosis. It was literally like spy versus spy on spy on spy. I don't know, just craziness, but but so so these evaluations came out from David Mascavige where he dictated everything that was wrong with Scientology and how to fix it. And right around that time. So now we're talking July 99.

Speaker 3: 30:48

And that was significant for me because that's when I had my massive motorcycle accident where I completely broke my leg above my ankle, both bones clean through the impact broke my shoulder. This happened on the property because David Mascavige was there. They didn't call 911. They didn't call an ambulance, and so I, kevin Katano, put a splint on my leg and then they put me into the little red Honda that the medical officer would drive and she drove me to Hemant Hospital, as a result of which I almost lost my leg.

Speaker 3: 31:27

They when, when I, when I arrived into the ER, I was so in shock and I remember that the ER personnel were so angry. They were like who did this to you? And I was just like I don't know. Because I didn't, you know, I was in shock and I knew I couldn't say Kevin Katano did this to me. That would have been a big, big boo boo, not allowed, not safe to do. So I just said I don't know. But they were super livid about that and, and yes, I think, five hours of testing, like because I arrived around two in the afternoon. They were still testing by like into the evening to see if I was going to lose my foot completely, which, in retrospect, was terrifying. At the time I'd had so little sleep and I was in shock, so I just didn't understand what was happening.

Speaker 3: 32:22

But I got yeah, so I had. You know, I had several conversations with Shelly about that and she, she just you know, of course now I was labeled a potential trouble source because I'd had a major accident. And she, I remember specifically, one night she called me up to her office and she, she just said, oh, and by this time I was able to walk again. So this was several months later, but I had a cane. So originally when the accident happened I was in a wheelchair, then I was in a walker, I had a walker and then I had a cane. So by the time so this I think was three or four months after I'd had the accident, and I went up to her office to see her with my cane and she was like, look at you, this is structural damage. And I was like, yes, sir, and she was essentially just kind of trying to, she was concerned and she wanted to make sure I was okay. But she was also kind of shocked, like I think, by the fact that I had a cane.

Speaker 3: 33:41

And you know, I don't know it was a very tumultuous period for her as well, because by this time now David and Shelley were spending a lot of time in Clearwater directly dealing with the lawsuits surrounding Lisa McPherson. I think there was a criminal and a civil trial, or civil criminal case and a civil case and for some reason that I don't particularly recall the details of. But this, the criminal case specifically, was very much like David Miscavige thought it was going to completely shut down Scientology. What his theory and understanding of that was, I'm not necessarily I don't know why he thought that.

Speaker 1: 34:36

I mean, obviously it was a terrible thing that happened, yeah it would have been a precedent if they could say that somebody that died in Scientology, that Scientology was responsible for that Right and the person signing their life away when they sign all these documents that sort of. I think that's really how Scientology gets away with. A lot of this is that when you first get into Scientology, you sign a whole bunch of documents that say, if anything bad happens, it's not Scientology's fault, Right?

Speaker 1: 35:07

And you know that's going in. So if they went to court for wrongful death or for something that Scientology did, then that could have repercussions internationally for all, because it was all sorts of people that would love to sue Scientology and if they knew they could do it this way, then they'd win.

Speaker 1: 35:26

So that was essentially, that was the reason why this was a big deal, and that's also the reason why Scientology very rarely lets any of these cases go to trial. They almost invariably settle them if they can before it goes to trial. So okay, so anything else while you were the director of corrections.

Speaker 3: 35:50

No, though still, all through those years Shelley was very involved in overseeing the celebrities in Scientology, particularly the high profile ones like Tom Cruise. It was during those years that, for example, I did a lot of research for Shelley in relation to Jim Carrey and trying to get him into Scientology. Anyway, we've talked about that in other places and it's not particularly relevant to Shelley's state of mind and what we're talking about here. So yeah, the next significant change was that in March of 2000, I was moved from director of correction to the position called internal executive, which oversaw all the internal workings of religious technology center. So I was over staff recruitment, staff training, staff morale, finances and yeah, Correction.

Speaker 3: 36:57

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:59

But the correction of religious technology center. So when you were the director der correction RTC you were part of ABC and that post is supposed to get executives and other organizations as well as religious technology corrected. But then when you go to the director or during internal or internal exec, then you're responsible for just religious technology center people getting corrected. You don't have to get other people correct and necessarily.

Speaker 3: 37:27

That's right, yep.

Speaker 1: 37:29

And also the time period, because that when was that? When you got, when you moved to that post?

Speaker 3: 37:34

March 2000. So I was that position from March 2000, pretty much solidly until September 2004,. Which is when I after that, when I ended up in the hole because I because I would divorce you.

Speaker 1: 37:49

Yeah, Good job, babe. Was there a time period? Because I've covered this in the spy files a little bit. On this channel we have a series called the Scientology spy files and the top Scientology Tom Cruise spy files. But there's two individuals that keep coming up in those files, which is Michael and Andrea Dovan. Wasn't there a time when they were getting they were being dealt with by religious technology center because they were working in Tom Cruise's camp feeding information to religious technology center, but weren't they getting corrected and pulled in and interrogated by people in Los Angeles, and did they ever come to the international headquarters to do that as well?

Speaker 3: 38:31

Yes, yeah, and we talked a little bit about that in part one, because because those that when Michael and Andrea were at the at the headquarters was in 95 ish, yeah, so it was before I was in religious technology center, but I was doing things with them at during the time that they were getting handled by religious technology center. By handled, of course, we mean interrogations and yeah. Studying Hubbard and yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:03

Yeah, so then. Okay, so then let's fast forward back to 2000. Okay, so now you're the dirt, you're the internal exec, rtc, and that is literally that is the post. You're in charge of internal for RTC. That is what it is.

Speaker 3: 39:17

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:19

So that, so that David Mascavage doesn't have to worry about the internal workings of religious religious technology center, that's done by the inspector general, who would have been your boss, right that's right. So that's what your boss would have been. Marty Yep and then Marty's boss was David Mascavage. There you go, okay.

Speaker 3: 39:37

Yep.

Speaker 1: 39:38

Okay, so then, what, what? So what type of things did you do as internal exec for Shelley, or what was Shelley asking about, or what were your interactions with Shelley during that time?

Speaker 3: 39:48

period. Yes, so during those years Shelley actually was acting as my boss, more so than Marty was, so I would have meetings with anytime she was at that property. I would go up to her office every day and review my to do list, my battle plan, as it was called, with Shelley, and most often it had included, for example, handlings with various different staff that the frequent flyers, should we say, like the people that were commonly just that I would commonly discuss with Shelley, who were struggling to conform to David Mascavage's requirements, was Norman Starkey, warren McShane and of course, warren is in religious technology center to this day as the over legal and off of special affairs Marty Rathbone, and so even though she was your boss.

Speaker 1: 40:48

Yes, yeah, that was that's where it got kind of a little strange, because shelly's telling you Marty needs to do this, this and this, and then you would have to go to Marty and say, marty, you have to do this, this and this, even though technically he's your boss on the board, but shelly is your boss in real life, like who's telling you what you need to do as well as Marty.

Speaker 3: 41:11

Yes, exactly yeah. So kind of created this strange push pull situation of you know, marty was supposed to have. Marty did have seniority over me, but if Shelley is coming in from the side and saying, hey, he's non performing, go go find out what his crimes are or go interrogate him or this, that the other thing, then I had to do it and oftentimes it was it. During these years it continued to deteriorate. So there was a time when there was a whole.

Speaker 3: 41:47

So there's the emeter, the phenomena on the emeter, the called a rock slam, where the needle is a radically bouncing back and forth. We've talked about this before, and somebody who has that is somebody who has evil intentions towards Scientology and David Miscavige and Hubbard, if it happens, while they're talking about that. Well, so during this time, shelley somehow developed this theory that Norman Starkey absolutely must be a rock slammer and I was tasked with finding it, or otherwise I was going to go to the rehabilitation project for us if I didn't, you know. So it was situations like this that just were. You know, you're kind of trapped by the circumstance in which you find yourself and really, as we've talked about, that property was more secure than Supermax by my understanding, not that I've ever been to Supermax, but I think I think that prisoners have more freedom than Searge members at that property.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Get paid more too, I think in some prisons. Okay, so then, so that's so that during this period this is also when I mean you're talking about a lot of things that happened in that 2000 to 2004, because that is really when people were escaping at a very alarming rate as well, like, I would say, every few weeks or every month, somebody was GTFO and out of that there was.

Speaker 3: 43:20

There was a time when it was at least weekly, okay, and sometimes even every day, and so, for example, even some people from religious technology center like there was a woman that tried to escape and she left in the dead of night from her house, which was just on the border of that property, like she wasn't that far away, and she fell in a ditch and couldn't get out, and that's how they caught her and brought her back.

Speaker 3: 43:49

And then other ones where, like the, the main person who was responsible for ethics in RTC, who had to make sure that all the staff were behaving and doing what they're supposed to be doing, she went to, I think, her brother's wedding or something, and then she just refused to come back. I got in trouble for that. I. Oh, and also during that time let's not forget that's when Marty escaped, so I was his junior and he came through my office and he was like, okay, I'm going down to go, to go to attend a meeting with David Mascavage. He got on his bike and he left and he never showed up and he remember.

Speaker 1: 44:33

I remember that meeting. I was at that meeting and we all showed up for the meeting. We were all sitting in there and we couldn't start the meeting until everyone had arrived. And then, once every single person arrived, then somebody would call Shelly or Larisse or whoever and say, okay, we're all here. And then David Mascavage, at his leisure, would get together and come down to the meeting. And we were at the meeting and we were all waiting and I remember Lisa Schroer, who was the commanding officer at the time, was like we're all here except for Marty. And then it was like Where's Marty? And then after like 10 minutes, it was like, oh, he be gone, he's out, he's done. Because you would never not show up to a meeting if David Mascavage said we're having a meeting, you have to be at that meeting and you have to get there within a minute or else the entire world will end.

Speaker 2: 45:28

And so he hadn't been in 10 minutes, it was like, oh, he's long gone.

Speaker 3: 45:32

Yeah, I think, and so Larisse started radioing me first, then Shelly and they were up. They were both like Where's Marty and I'm like he went down to the meeting and then I think even you radioed me, as I recall, to say Where's Marty.

Speaker 1: 45:49

Right, I remember, because we had the next tell, bleep, bleep, bleep, fun. So we would chirp and be like, hey, you know, we're all here except for Marty. This is a big problem. And then that's why I think, when you had said, oh yeah, I don't, he said he left. And then it was like, oh yeah, he gone and he just drove, he, because he was the second in command of the base. So if he had a motorcycle and he was going to go from one side of the property to the other, you could just go through the gates that would open out to the highway. And that is how a lot of people crossed, because it was quicker than going through all the tunnels to get to the other side.

Speaker 1: 46:22

Right you would just drive from one place to the other and he said, hey, I'm going across the road and they open the game. He just drove off down the highway. He never, and he never came back.

Speaker 3: 46:30

Yeah, and remember too that already by this time, technically, you didn't have to cross over the road because there was the tunnel leading under the property.

Speaker 1: 46:38

It was quicker to go just across the highway as opposed to going through the tunnels. There were two tunnels, but it was easier and also the way to get into the tunnel if it was raining or anything. There were accidents all the time in there because it was very slippery, so people would wipe out going through the tunnel all the time. So it was just like, just because everyone's driving too fast, everyone hasn't slept, everyone's, there's other people coming, so it was easier, just to go across the highway.

Speaker 1: 47:04

But you weren't supposed to do that because then people would get TFO down the highway Right. So going across.

Speaker 3: 47:11

Yeah, and security had not even realized that he did that. Like I'm sure now they're way more. They probably just don't let staff cross over the highway at all, but yeah, but there's. We could probably make a list pretty long of the number of people that GTFO using this method, but yeah. So he took off and, and oh boy, the blow drill that went into place to track him down was outrageous. I do not even, honestly, know how many people were involved, but it was a lot because it was hundreds, I remember it was.

Speaker 1: 47:51

Just so we could clarify it. A blow drill is a blow. In Scientology is when you have an unauthorized departure. So you can blow from a course, you can blow from staff you can. You can just leave the course and not go back and do the course. They call that a blow. So from the base, when they, when somebody escaped, when they blew, they had what was called a blow drill and hunt, usually 20 to 50 people would be activated to go to the bus stations, go to the tax, call the taxi cab, go to the local hotels or motels and go to all these places, call the family, stake out, you know, basically do anything and everything to recover this person as soon as possible.

Speaker 3: 48:33

Yeah, including getting the phone records, because Marty had a next cell phone radio as well, just like we all did. It was not his personally, it belonged to the organization, which is how they were able to access all the phone records.

Speaker 1: 48:47

And see who he had, if he had called anybody or if he was still using it, who he was talking to, so they could maybe figure out where he was headed to.

Speaker 3: 48:54

Yep Exactly.

Speaker 1: 48:57

So, and that was in two, I want to say that was in 2004 when Marty escaped.

Speaker 3: 49:02

I think it was 2003.

Speaker 1: 49:04

2003,. Okay, I remember it was in the early 2000s somewhere, I don't remember exactly when.

Speaker 3: 49:10

Yeah, maybe even 2002, but 2002, 2003, because already by that point was the beginnings of the whole and that was what tripped Marty.

Speaker 1: 49:21

I remember because we were doing meetings and whenever we do these meetings with David Miscavige, Shelley Miscavige and David Miscavige and Marty and you and anybody that was in religious technology center would be sort of on Dave's side of the room or behind Dave while he's yelling and screaming at us.

Speaker 3: 49:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:41

And I remember right the meeting right before that meeting that Marty didn't ever end up getting to. We had a meeting and Dave, when he walked in he said, no, you guys go on that side. And he made all of the RTC people, I think you, marty, anybody else who was usually standing behind him while he yelled at us. You guys had to come and stand with us and get yelled at.

Speaker 1: 50:08

Yep and that was the first meeting when Marty was on our side getting yelled at. He was like nope, I ain't playing anymore. And then the next meeting he was gone.

Speaker 3: 50:19

Yep, that's right it was.

Speaker 1: 50:21

That was a crazy. You're right, that was the beginnings of the you guys don't leave this building until you get these, this action item list, done. And we were just there just sitting in a room for three days and we just couldn't go anywhere and everybody was like hey, I'm going to go. Nope, you can't go. Dave said you can't go until. And it was never going to get done. So it would be like you know, four days and then Dave would show up and he goes obviously, guys aren't going to get this done, but you need to do this and you need to do this, so you need to go and do your work. And then you'd get, you get out, and then you'd go back and do your work.

Speaker 3: 50:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:56

And then the next meeting you could get locked up in there again. So the whole was basically it had evolved over the years to know you don't get to leave, yeah we don't care.

Speaker 3: 51:09

It started out as an SP room in those buildings and then it just became the entire building.

Speaker 2: 51:15

That's right. It was the SP room. That's right, and that's where Mark Jaeger John Horowitz was in there, John.

Speaker 1: 51:21

Horowitz, all those guys were locked in this one room and they were and they had on the bulletin board suppressive person declares issued on them. Yeah, in the Seaworth they were Seaworth members who had had been declared suppressive persons, but they were still in the Seaworth and they were still the COCMO international and they were still running all of Scientology.

Speaker 3: 51:41

Yeah, but.

Speaker 1: 51:42

David Muscavige had been, had declared them suppressive persons.

Speaker 3: 51:45

Yeah. So answer me this If they're declared a suppressive, then technically by Hubbard policy the only person they can talk to is the international justice chief, mike Ellis, who was down in LA. How does that?

Speaker 2: 51:59

work. I know he's in Los Angeles. He has no idea what's going on at this place.

Speaker 3: 52:04

No, he would be yes or no, sir. Three bags full sir. To any one of those people I know it was completely weird and I will say that during these, during this time period is when I saw Shelly, her demeanor and her outlook just tremendously deteriorated. This is where she would start to be pleading with the staff like please, get your, get your act together. There were several instances where she told me personally you have no idea what I'm going through. And I was really, really concerned. And there were several times when I was in meetings with her in her office where Dave would come storming in yelling at her and I was like, oh, now I'd have to scamper out of there. And also so I just could see that she was really, really trying hard to fix things and nothing was getting better. It was only getting worse. Then in 2004 was when Tom Cruz came to the property and was getting his six month check, his counseling step, that he had to get done directly because he's operating fate in level seven.

Speaker 1: 53:21

every six months you're auditing yourself at your home or your work or wherever, and every six months you have to go and get a check to make sure you're doing things right and make sure you're not doing the wrong thing. It's basically a way for them to make money off Scientologists when they have to go to the Florida location every six months, no matter what. But Tom Cruz didn't have to go to the Florida location. He would come to the international headquarters to get his six month check.

Speaker 3: 53:47

That's right. And during that time also, tommy Davis became Tom Cruz's assistant, which was super bizarre, just because Tommy Davis was a member of the C organization and now he's with Tom Cruz all the time. During the time that Tom came to the property, he was given offices right next door to David Mischavage Tommy Davis and Tom. Cruz, both, they were both had offices in RTC. Yes.

Speaker 1: 54:20

Wow.

Speaker 3: 54:21

So by this time the RTC building had been built, which is the $40 million, I don't know 35,000 square foot building on that property. But only David Mischavage and Shelley and his personal staff were allowed to go into that building. So David Mischavage had a whole wing of that building which was on the second floor, and so no one else from RTC was allowed into that building. We kept in our existing offices and but Tom Cruz and Tommy Davis were given offices in that building for the time that he was there. And again, shelley was just so involved in every piece of catering to Tom Cruz even that, like he, tom Cruz brought up that he was having trouble with his two kids, and so Shelley. That's when Shelley brought Jessica Feshbach to Celebrity Center to directly start dealing with Tom's kids.

Speaker 1: 55:29

And so Jessica Feshbach was a Seaworth member that was interrogating Isabella and Connor, tom Cruz's kids at the time, and so a Seaworth member was being directed by Religious Technology Center to interrogate Tom Cruz's children and find out what they were doing. That was out ethics or non-survival, because Tom was having problems with them.

Speaker 3: 55:52

Yep, exactly. It just goes to illustrate the level that Religious Technology Center was involved in his Tom Cruz's day to day life really.

Speaker 1: 56:05

And 2004,. I want to be clear on this in 2004 is when that whole Tom Cruz's girlfriend thing happened with Shelley. Because I remember because we in Golden Era Productions we had a person who was doing all these casting interviews with female Scientology actresses in Los Angeles and he was doing it as a project for Religious Technology Center to interview all these Scientology actors and the questions were weird because they weren't about a movie, they were about Tom Cruz. What do you think about Tom Cruz? What have you done in Scientology? What do you think of David Miscavage? And they were sort of being pre-screened. And I remember, because the guy in Golden Era Productions was doing these, he worked under me because I was over the film production area and casting was in that and he said, yeah, we're doing some project for some new Tom Cruz movie, and that was what he had been told. And so then when I went home and I was like, oh yeah, we're doing all these weird interviews for some Tom Cruz movie and you're like that's no Tom Cruz movie.

Speaker 3: 57:14

Yeah, I don't think I told you until after we left.

Speaker 1: 57:18

Maybe that's when I said do you remember when we were doing those things and you were like, yeah, that wasn't for that, that was so he could get a girlfriend.

Speaker 2: 57:23

And I was like what?

Speaker 3: 57:25

Yeah, because, remember, at that point I didn't know, I was about to get put in the hole and I couldn't, I wasn't allowed to share any information with you.

Speaker 1: 57:34

That's right.

Speaker 3: 57:35

Because either you would get interrogated, or I would get interrogated, and so it was like this, you know, you can't rely on somebody not to rat you out.

Speaker 1: 57:45

If they're going to get interrogated for 22 hours, they're most likely going to rat you out to end the interrogation.

Speaker 1: 57:52

So, you can never tell somebody something that they could possibly rat you out for, because you know they will.

Speaker 1: 57:58

But I wanted to say that was also during the time when I was at a meeting with Dave and Shelley in a production area it was in the compilations area that were doing the books for all of Scientology and we were having a meeting in there and during the meeting Shelley had handed me her clipboard and her stuff.

Speaker 1: 58:17

Like she had like a little bag and a clipboard and a whole bunch of little things that she would carry with her and for some reason she had to go show somebody something or do something. And she gave it to me. And then almost immediately they got a call, some legal thing or something, and all the Dave and Shelley and Larisse, those guys, they all ran out to go to the meeting and so then they left and then I'm holding Shelley's clipboard and stuff and I'm sort of like, oh great, I need to. This is going to be weird, because I got to somehow get this back to her and I can't just give it to anybody. I got to really give it to her. So what? I immediately went into the bathroom and read every single thing that was in the clipboard.

Speaker 3: 58:56

Of course you did.

Speaker 2: 58:57

Only you would do that.

Speaker 1: 58:58

The first thing that the first document that I saw was a list of all of the religious technology center staff members were which job, who, all the name of people, why they were leaving religious technology center and where they were going. And you were at the very top of the list and it said Claire Headley, she's going to go to CMO and and the reason? It just said Mark, that's it. And I was like, oh my goodness, and so during that time, and I eventually went up to religious technology center and I gave her the clipboard back. But then, but then every once in a while, when I did see you because we very rarely saw each other, because I would come home, it maybe not, or you would come home at four and I'd already be asleep, or I wouldn't even have been home, or whatever we would see each other, maybe once or twice a week, maybe, yeah. And whenever I'd see you I would always be like Are you going to divorce?

Speaker 2: 59:54

me or what I know.

Speaker 3: 59:55

And I was like why do you keep asking me that Because you never told me that you'd seen that list. Of course, again, just to illustrate how little we were able to share. It's not like we were comparing notes or you know, even even saying one negative thing about David Miscavige from either of us would have been pretty much the equivalent of a death sentence in that place. So so yeah, I, but I was. I was so like, because you're from one side, you're asking me Are you going to divorce me? And from the other side, David Miscavige and Shelley were both on numerous occasions telling me you better divorce Mark, and so I if you want to stay in religious technology center, right, you have to divorce.

Speaker 1: 1:00:40

And to be fair, I want to say there was three or four other couples in religious technology center and all of them divorced their husbands. So, like Jesse Radstrom and Lysia, Lysia divorced Jesse.

Speaker 3: 1:00:53

Warren, lauren McShane and Marcy McShane were divorced and ironically not to get off topic but when we discussed this in our deposition because because I started listing them all the people off of who was forced to divorce, and somebody who left after this told me that following that deposition, they all got back together again- that's right, I remember you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:17

Welcome Warren.

Speaker 3: 1:01:17

McShane.

Speaker 2: 1:01:19

That's right. They made all the couples get back together because we had told them that they forced them to get divorced, so then they forced them to get back together. It was the craziest thing.

Speaker 3: 1:01:29

It was also with Carol Burke and Thomas Burke.

Speaker 1: 1:01:33

John Thomas.

Speaker 3: 1:01:35

Darnell Bloomberg and David Bloomberg, like there was a whole massive long list.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

Well, Barbara Griffin refused to divorce. Great, she was the treasury sex. She knew where all the religious technology center money was and she was like I'm not doing it and you're not going to make me yeah, she just never got divorced, yeah, she was this sweet short little round lady, and she was not one bit afraid of David.

Speaker 3: 1:02:01

Miss Gavitch, let me tell you she was like no, no, no, no. Of course she would never stand up to him, but in her head and by her actions that was very, very clear.

Speaker 1: 1:02:13

So yeah, that was wild.

Speaker 3: 1:02:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:17

That is craziness, yeah, but yes and.

Speaker 3: 1:02:20

Shelly. Shelly did tell me personally. She said yeah, now I'm having to do a project to find Tom Cruz a wife, and this was because she was increasingly seeing that David Miss Gavitch was spending more and more time talking on the phone with Tom Cruz and not doing anything to do with leading Scientology, and that was why she took that project on, according to what she told me.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

Yeah, wasn't there. I mean, I want to say that they were going. I remember hearing and seeing pictures of them snowmobiling and doing trips and going off on scuba diving adventures and he was doing a lot. He was at the football games with David Beckham and Tom Cruz and he was basically just traveling around being Tom Cruz's best friend and then when he'd show back up at the base he'd rain down terror on everybody and then he'd go back off and go scuba diving or something Right.

Speaker 3: 1:03:24

And David Miscavage would often say that we were taking him away from and distracting him from where he could make the biggest impact for Scientology. That part was very, very clear that David Miscavage was of the view that if he's hanging out with Tom Cruz and opening up Ideal Orgs and doing that, that should be his main activity, not getting involved in management. And yet he is the one who'd been doing that for years. So it was, as with many things in Scientology constant contradictions.

Speaker 1: 1:04:05

Awesome. Ok, is there any other key things that you wanted to say about Shelley before we wrap this one?

Speaker 3: 1:04:11

up? No, I don't think so. I always end for the people that I've interviewed. I always end with if you could talk to Shelley now, what would you say? And my message to Shelley would be look at your life. Are you happy? Are you doing what you want to do? Are you free to do what you want to do? There's a whole ton of people that really care about you and want you to have the freedom to live your life as you see fit, not based on anything you've been led to believe since you were six years old, and I just hope that she would. I hope someday she wakes up and does get out and does reunite with her family and does have the freedom to do what she wants and come and go as she pleases as a human being.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

Yeah, and let's not forget, A lot of people ask why do we care about Shelley? What's the deal with Shelley Mascavage? Shelley Mascavage has been with and seen what David Mascavage has done physically and mentally torturing people for decades. She was witness to it. She was there right by his side until the early 2000s and if there was a witness or there was a person that could speak on behalf of what David Mascavage has been doing, she would be a key person.

Speaker 1: 1:05:37

So the fact that we did a video a few weeks ago where we talked about this new Church of Spiritual Technology location that she had been registered to vote at and if we were still there it would be very weird for her to be at that location. That would just be an unthinkable thing where she would be. There would be no good reason for her to be at that place. So the fact that she was at that place is a very interesting fact of her journey and where she's being moved and, to be fair, she could have been moved to any one of the other locations by this point.

Speaker 3: 1:06:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:20

And so that's why we're trying to find out about it. A lot of people want to know where this gal is that got disappeared by Scientology.

Speaker 3: 1:06:30

And it really does epitomize what's wrong with Scientology. It's not that Shelley is the only person. There are many other people who have vanished into this organization and we don't know that. They're OK. And so to continue exposing this practice and to continue exposing what Scientology does and how they operate. That's why this is important.

Speaker 1: 1:06:53

Exactly Awesome, ok, guys. Well, thanks for watching, thanks for getting all the way to the end of this one, and we'll see you on the next one. Until next time. Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hale Zinu Zinu is my homeboy and BFG branded Mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever. You listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the Subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.