Unraveling Scientology's Infiltration: East Grinstead's Council, Paris Org Woes, & Narconon Scrutiny - Scientology Stories #42

Scandal has struck at the heart of East Grinstead, and together with Apostate Alex, I, Claire Headley, peel back the curtain on Scientology's insidious grasp on local governance. Our latest podcast episode unveils the shocking entanglement of the controversial church within the fibers of East Grinstead Town Council. As we unpack the Daily Mail's bombshell revelations, you'll hear firsthand how 'safepointing' has become Scientology's modus operandi, transforming community ties into a strategic ploy for power. The journey to uncover these truths wasn't without resistance, as you'll learn through our personal accounts of the pushback from the council and the formidable wall of silence we've been chipping away at.

The plot thickens when we turn the spotlight on the local council's dance with complicity, as we reveal the extent of their alleged collusion with Scientology's darker side. We discuss how redacted minutes and censored records are more than just bureaucratic maneuvers—they are the footprints of a council struggling to maintain an image while under the church's financial charm. The tales of personal attacks faced by critics, reminiscent of Scientology's 'fair game' tactics, illustrate a chilling reality. Our dialogue also branches out to consider the wider implications of such financial influence on local governments, from East Grinstead to the Los Angeles Police Department, and the pressing need for transparency and accountability.

In a compelling segue, we turn our attention to the Paris Ideal Org's grand opening—shadowed by controversy and strikingly low turnout. The event's subdued atmosphere and David Miscavige's absence are not mere footnotes but indicators of Scientology's wavering facade of expansion. We speculate on Miscavige's current game of hide-and-seek, all while considering Scientology's potential maneuvers for the impending Paris Olympics. Wrapping up, we acknowledge the valiant efforts of global activists like Shanti Das, whose formidable work has put Narconon's questionable practices under the microscope, inspiring us all to persist in the fight for awareness and change.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

Welcome back to the channel. I'm your host for today, claire Headley, and I am joined by apostate Alex. Alex, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it. We've talked about getting together and doing some conversations so many times, so it's wonderful to finally have this chance to talk, and this past week has been very significant in terms of activities in the world of Scientology. Would you agree?

Speaker 2: 0:43

It's definitely a week. I wouldn't want to be in Miscavige's inner circle, that's for sure especially working in OSA, because it's been attacked like Scientology's been attacked from all angles, I think, this week. So, yeah, it's been a wild one, but thank you for having me here. I'm glad we finally got to do this.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Yes, no, absolutely, and I will, of course, link to your channel. Anyone joining us, don't forget to get on over and subscribe to Apostate Alex and we will be talking today about a few things, but also specifically about the article that came out in the Daily Mail. We were talking about this before we started, but it is reassuring to finally see some mainstream media talking about Scientology, their tactics, their corruption, fair game, etc. So, yeah, let's get into this. So do you want to cover the basics of the article? And I can link to that article as well in the description.

Speaker 2: 1:41

Absolutely so. I mean, look, the Daily mail are not known in the uk, as I'm sure it's the same in america that it's not the most prestigious lots of newspaper that does big investigations and all of this sort of stuff. So I didn't reach out to them because of of the journalistic um side of things. It was more it's the largest news organization on the planet, right? Their website gets 800 million hits a week or a month or something. No, I think it might be a day, but still 800 million regularly, whether it's a day, a week or a month.

Speaker 2: 2:14

That's a lot of people, um, so it's a lot of eyes and that's why it's important that we get stuff in newspapers like that. And it turns out I have got so much more respect now for the day you're in their journalism and their journalists because they they really pushed stuff through and were really intent on getting this article out and we're not going to back down against the fair game and scientology's tactics that we know about. But essentially the article was a double page spread in the print newspaper and then also online about the corruption of East Grinstead Town Council where Scientology has St Hill, the UK headquarters, and how they've been weaseling their way into the town.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Council and different council members and former mayors have been going to Scientology events and it was a huge piece and a big blow to Scientology in the UK, in my opinion anyway, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I really appreciated that they called the East Grinstead town councillors on what they've been accepting, how they've been benefiting from allowing Scientology to do what they do, and it just shows it's it really uh isolates and establishes how they they weasel in and how they hold power and how they use their celebrity influence to uh sway local councils yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 3:39

I mean to give you a bit of backstory, how this whole story came about. It was I went to protest, obviously outside the IES event in November. So, um, you know International Association of Scientologists for those of you who don't know, it's a big annual gathering um, it was promoted as the largest, the greatest gathering of Scientologists on planet earth and it was the first time an international event had been held in St Hill for four or five years, I think off the top of my head. And so I was there protesting and I did a lot of work afterwards to look at, you know, the mayor going to the charity ball on the Sunday and taking a big check for £50,000 for his chosen charity and just started doing some digging and I thought, look, we all know about clear water and how infiltrated clear water has become because of scientology, and I wonder what extent or how successful scientology have been in east grinstead in the uk. And I went into it thinking that councillors are probably uninformed and love the opportunity to go to a Scientology event and walk up on stage and accept a trophy or give a check over or whatever it is that they're doing and some nice food and stuff at events every now and then, but that's kind of the extent of it. But it turns out I was wrong and it goes much further and much deeper than I expected.

Speaker 2: 5:02

So went down the rabbit hole and it became very clear that a large number of councillors and mayors have a very strong, close relationship with Scientology and not only do they go to events but they actively support and defend Scientology, which is not something I'm obviously okay with.

Speaker 2: 5:23

So started trying to raise the flag and raise awareness and shout from the rooftops about how Scientology are being nice to counsellors and giving them gifts and so on and red carpet events for Tom Cruise and donating to local charities.

Speaker 2: 5:38

The only reason they do that is because they want to gain control and influence over decision makers through a policy called safe pointing. They don't do it because they actually care about local issues and want to help people at safe pointing the policy actually the word is control they want to bring you under their control so that they are looked more lightly or looked, um, looked more favorably, for example, when decisions are made around Scientology in the local area. So I just wanted to raise awareness and say, look guys, they're trying to control you. And the more I looked into it, the more I found evidence of different occasions where they have been looked at more favorably or they have got away with certain stuff. And the council just came full on attack against me. And it's been an ongoing battle, since I'm currently at war with East Grinstead Town Council, which is not where I expected to be, but here we are.

Speaker 1: 6:47

Scientology's control and leverage, and I would say it's not only to do with influencing the council, in regards to decisions, to be favorable as to what Scientology is trying to get done, but also to have influence and control when they need to cover up crimes or there's, you know, abuse going on or things of that nature, because I remember that, even as a young child, seeing stories in the newspaper about, you know, a student from St Hill being found dead in the forest, for example, and so it's more sinister as well in that regard as to how Scientology wants to control the narrative and continue as the abusive organization that they are who live in east.

Speaker 2: 7:45

You know, I I don't live in east grinstead, I live in london, um, which is, for those of you who don't know uk geography it's about an hour hour and a half, I think, door to door from where I am to to east grinstead. It's not far, um, but it is a different town. And so the number, the number of people who have been contacting me who are residents of east grinstead, since I've been raising awareness of this stuff, um, and the number of stories that have come out of similar things, of how Scientologists have been getting away with this and that, and there's, you know, questionable activities going on that hasn't had any press interest at all because it's squashed at the first possible moment. You know, there are countless stories that, like you mentioned, where people have passed away in suspicious circumstances, like you mentioned, where people have passed away in suspicious circumstances, and the machine that is OSA, the Office of Special Affairs, do everything they can to try and suppress the story. But if they can't stop the story from reaching the tabloids or reaching the papers, they do their best to separate their involvement or engagement with the story so that it doesn't look badly for the church, because they care more about their own reputation and the pr of the church than they do about the people who are, you know, being abused or passing away or or, um, you know, dropping their bodies or whatever you want to, how you want to phrase it.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Like it's, it's not okay, and what needs to happen is people need to realize that Scientology isn't just this crazy American cult that has these wacky beliefs in space aliens and volcano H-bombs and all of this. There is that element, yes, but it is a harmful, destructive movement that is abusing people right now. Whether you like it or not, it's happening. You like it or not, it's happening and that's the narrative. I'm trying to change the, the public perception from being this crazy cult to no, it's an abusive organization and they're getting away with it that's exactly right.

Speaker 1: 9:33

Yeah, and and that's the great thing about this article this week is it literally shows exactly how they they are doing that, how how they're using their power and their tax-exempt dollars to wield control. Yeah, no, anyway, great work. So what do you think the next steps are in terms of where do you see this going?

Speaker 2: 9:56

Yeah, I think it's interesting. It's Sam Merriman who is the journalist that was working on the piece. We were working together since November. The um journalist that was working on the piece we were working together since november is event. It was meant to come out in the january um, and it wasn't until last week that the article came out and we're, you know we're now in april, so it took a long time to get the article through and massive respect and thanks to sam because he was pushing it through with the daily mail legal team and then with his editor and I did give him the heads up to begin with. You know, anytime you write anything about Scientology, it's not going to be easy to push it through legal, because they will send you a barrage of illegal threats and try and shut the story down and threaten to sue. But the policy is exactly that threaten to sue, not to actually sue, um, and so he really pushed through and worked really hard to get it out and I really respect that. He wants to work on a follow up piece on how East Grinstead have responded to the news.

Speaker 2: 10:59

You know I submitted a complaint because essentially I spoke at a town council meeting in January where I raised you know the flag and I said, hey, what is? I think my question was what are the town council doing to protect young and vulnerable people from abuse at St Hill? Right, it's a question of safeguarding. Now, it's not the council's responsibility to investigate or prevent abuse or do anything like that. But if the council are engaging with this organisation on a regular basis and accepting checks on stage from Sea Org members, you know what checks and balances are the council do the council have in place to prevent accepting money that's fraudulently gained or? Um, you know, when you accept the check, you know that person may be, for all intents and purposes, a modern slave, because you cannot leave the property as a seal member without permission. You get bussed on and off the property, work 14, 16, 18 hours a day for 50 pounds a week. You work seven days a week. Like the criteria for modern slavery is ticked by Scientology here in the UK. So what are the council doing to ensure that they are not enabling or supporting that abuse?

Speaker 2: 12:13

Um, I think it was a totally valid question to ask of the council and they came firing back and they redacted the meeting minutes and they took the section out of public questions out of the recording on youtube and they removed all mention of scientology from the minutes of the meeting. And they did the same again on the 29th I think it was of january, the next council meeting, where danielle chamberlain and a handful of others very bravely joined the meeting and asked, in the public questions section, similar questions. You know danielle's told her story of being locked in the chain locker by erin hubbard and, um, you know some horrible things that happened to her and she was trying to hold the council to account. How does it make me how do you think it makes me feel when you walk up on a stage and accept a 50 000 pound check from scientology, regardless of it if it's for a charity or not like this is why are you doing? This was essentially her question, and three or four other members of the public who are not former Scientologists just ask similar questions that were related to the role the council are playing in supporting and enabling the abuse.

Speaker 2: 13:19

And again, it was completely shot down and it was redacted from the meeting minutes and so they've. They've not just gone and tried to cover it up, but they've also gone on the attack. You know they issued a statement on letterheaded paper that called me a vexatious bully that's been attempting to disrupt council meetings. I've been to one council meeting and I asked one question right, they've gone on an attack in a very similar way to fair game and how osu do it, and so I submitted the complaint and friday this week um coming, I have a complaints hearing, so let's see how that turns out.

Speaker 2: 13:56

Um but you know this is only just the beginning, so there was a very long-winded explanation to your question, which is what next?

Speaker 1: 14:03

yeah, no. And, by the way, yeah, no, just a side comment. I'm willing to bet money that vexatious bully is a direct quote from osa that they were fed that line meaning the town council, because that's so typical of you. Know how scientology responds is they just call names. Oh this, oh liar, oh big liar, oh bigot, oh you know. No, no, no. We're talking about specific events, specific abuses and specific practices that should not be going on in this day and age.

Speaker 2: 14:38

Yeah, exactly. And to give you an example, there is a councillor who works at mid sussex district council, which is the next level up from east grinstead, and I kid you not, I'm gonna try, I try not to laugh, but his name is genuinely dick sweat man um. And scientology love dick sweat man um. He is a huge supporter of scientology and the reason I say I try not to laugh and it's very petty, but his name is richard. Right, he could have gone by the name rich, but he has decided to go by the name Dick and his last name is Sweatman. It's unfortunate, but it's his own fault.

Speaker 1: 15:11

It is unfortunate.

Speaker 2: 15:14

He loves Scientology and he has been defending Scientology for years. And when the journalist called up Dick to ask for a statement or ask for his opinion on why he has been supporting this abusive organization, the questions that the journalist asked had nothing to do with me. It was like you've been to this event, you've done this, you've done this, you've done this. What do you have to say? According to the journalist, his response was almost word for word. His response was almost word for word, the exact same as the response Scientology sent the journalist about me and how I'm this religious bigot, all those words you just said. And that just goes to show how Scientology have been involved in the council's response to all of this, because the journal, the councillor, wouldn't have had any idea I was even involved in this if it wasn't for Scientology telling them, because the journalist didn't mention it.

Speaker 2: 16:06

And, yeah, I've never heard of a council responding to allegations of abuse going on in their constituency with an attack against the abuse victims. Right, they were telling me and everybody else to stop talking about it on social media. Please refrain from discussion discussing this in public forums. And I said no, we will not be silenced. And you're trying to censor the public record and intimidate us into silence. That's textbook fair game like. It's not appropriate for a council, a local government authority to be doing that, and I'm 100% convinced Scientology have got their fingers in this pie from all different angles.

Speaker 1: 16:49

Yes, no, of course, and, as you mentioned, this is widespread. East Grinstead is just one example. I was thinking while you were speaking it would be amazing if someone would dig in to find out, for example, how much money LAPD has accepted from Scientology, Because I was told a specific example. This is off topic to what we're talking about, but it does go to illustrate what we're discussing that Scientology was given I think it was either $25,000 or $50,000. Scientology gave this to one of the LAPD charities and one of the members stepped up and said, hey, this is not, you can't accept this. And she was shut down and those funds were accepted. So if you follow the money, as they say, in any of the areas where Scientology has power and influence, it is bought and it is for the sole purpose of control and leverage, to continue their abusive practices, continue fair game, continue all the things that they have historically been doing for seven decades. I mean, let's not forget, Scientology is responsible for the largest infiltration of the US government in its history. So you know.

Speaker 2: 18:14

It's not to be taken lightly, right? And the thing with the money you know, one of the. I don't know if you have had this in the States, but one of the responses that I've had from the council and from local residents is well, look, they're donating large amounts of money to local good causes and charities. Right, you know they. They send 50 000 pound checks to four or five different charities every single year that are not affiliated with scientology. They're good causes and it is money that is needed in the local area. Um, you know, if we, if we tell Scientology to stop doing that, then that's actually going to impact the local community negatively. And I said, well, yeah, but you have to look beyond the money, right? Because would you accept that money if you knew it was coming from, you know, a far-right extremist, you know white supremacist group? Would you accept that money from a terrorist organization? Would?

Speaker 2: 19:10

you yeah, right like? The answer is no. So why do you think that in this instance, the money is needed in the local community and it's worth accepting the abuse for? Because you know what? How do you think that it's acceptable in this circumstance but it's not in those? And that's what I mean about having be on a bit of a mission to change the rhetoric and change the public perception.

Speaker 2: 19:36

Scientology is not a crazy american cult, as you said. It's the largest infiltration of us government in history. They go on the attack and cover up and you know, danny marceson, as you were heavily involved in as an expert witness, right is showing how they try and cover up these crimes and prevent people from reporting things that have happened to them to law enforcement and also being guilty of the horrible abuse that happens in Scientology. If you're working the Sea Org and everything themselves directly, it's a harmful movement. It's not acceptable. However much, however needed the money is in the local area, it's not acceptable to take that and say thank you very much. Oh, there's some people here claiming that they've been harmed by this. We'll just ignore them, it's fine, and go one step further and then attack them on letterheaded paper from the council. It's outrageous, outrageous.

Speaker 1: 20:29

Sorry, I feel like I'm yeah no, no, I'm annoyed I know, and it is it, and that's why we'll continue speaking out and continue exposing and continuing doing the work to, as you said, um, correct the narrative as to what actually scientology gets away with. And it is just insane to me to see the number of attacks from any media perspective, anyone working to show what Scientology does and what they get away with, as you said, how they just literally flood and make strenuous efforts to shut it down. As we know, scientologists will lie. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of affidavits that are from Sea Org members so therefore are completely false and even down to David Miscavige abusing staff. I mean, there are so many people that have witnessed David Miscavige physically abuse staff firsthand, myself included, and yet he's the head of this billion dollar organization that, the fact of the matter is, will bully in silence and go to extreme lengths to shut down any exposure of the truth.

Speaker 2: 21:54

So exactly one of the the challenges I'm going through at the moment is all of this stuff that we're talking about. You know mike rinder was thrown in the lake in winter at saint hill, you know, when it was icy and cold, as punishment. You know Martin Padfield, who is an ex-Scientologist here in the UK, had an ashtray thrown at his head by David Miscavige. You know he is currently wanted in. You know there's a number of lawsuits against him alleging all this abuse and harassment and all this stuff that we know about. You know the evidence is clearly there that something wrong is happening, something bad is going on and I was trying to raise awareness of this abuse and try and get it in the article that was in the daily mail and it was all taken out by the legal team and I I met with the journalists afterwards last week, earlier this week and I said why, like, how do we get the abuse stories and the stories of children who have been raised in Scientology, who have no say or choice in the matter, and you know, sea Org members who are trafficked around the world and told to go where they have to go, wherever they're told, and this modern, savoury angle and the abuse like how do we get that into an article out by the legal team? And he said it's really hard because, in the absence of legal filings or court cases to prove it's actually happened, the legal teams are just a bit scared to print it because they know that Scientology will come back and attack and threaten to sue and and all of this, and so there's definitely a level where the legal teams at publications get scared because Scientology is known as a bully.

Speaker 2: 23:34

All the journalists I've worked with are all fully supportive and all put that stuff in every single article and it always gets taken out by the legal team. So I'm on this bit of a mission to kind of say look, it's happening, right, you need to print it and raise awareness because more people will see that and maybe come through the woodworks and say, oh my god, I thought I was the only one that xyz happened to and see the article and maybe we can get enough people to make a class action lawsuit or whatever it may be. Um, you know. So that's that's. The next step I'm trying to work on is how do we get these personal stories? And in between now and then, while we don't have the media coverage here in the UK. I'm just trying to do it on on YouTube and you know you spoke about your story of abuse at St Hill on a series I did called St Hill Stories, and just trying to do what we can to raise awareness that this abuse and maltreatment of children and vulnerable adults is going on.

Speaker 1: 24:37

Yeah, absolutely Well, again, amazing work. And we'll link to the article, of course, so everyone can get up to speed on that. And so, before I just wanted to talk with you because I know you were in Paris yesterday, right? Yes?

Speaker 2: 24:48

today, this morning, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 24:52

So how did that go?

Speaker 2: 24:54

Yeah, good. So, context-wise, paris, there's a new Ideal Org that was opened yesterday. It was teased at the IES event in November and then again at the New Year's event and then again at the LRH birthday event on March 13th. There's the next Ideal Org that's going to open. It was meant to open in January and it's been pushed back, for whatever reason. Finally, the Org opened yesterday.

Speaker 2: 25:23

It is open for business, and when I say that, I do mean it because Scientology is a business. It is considered a sect in France. They have been found guilty of fraud on two occasions in France. France are not messing around with their stance on Scientology.

Speaker 2: 25:41

When Buildings Investments Group, which is a shell company, scientology set up in Fairfax, virginia, to purchase the building that they now have, their organ, 30,000 local residents of Saint-Denis, which is the area of Paris in which it's located, signed a petition to try and prevent the purchase of the building because they didn't want Scientology in their local community. The mayor and the local town council actively campaigned and did what they can to prevent this sale going through, but they were unsuccessful. It was until I think it was four years. 2021 is when scientology were finally allowed to begin renovating the building when it was purchased in 2017. So four or five years of legal battles, um, and they finally got there. It didn't really need much renovation because there's 33 million euro or 36 million dollar building that used to be the samsung headquarters. It's just gone through a 5.6 million um like refurbishment work.

Speaker 2: 26:41

So it'sa beautiful, lovely office building, but that's not going to stop scientology ripping all of that new refurbishment out and putting in what they want to put in right, but it's really not wanted in the area and I thought, look, I'm I'm doing what I'm doing here in the uk, and france is only a short flight away, it's less than an hour on the plane, so I'll just hop over there and, you know, have a bit of a presence, and it was so fascinating to see, see it in the flesh and how. There were less than 500 people there, I would say. And this is meant to be the new biggest organization in Europe and it keeps growing in size. The first time Miscavige or Scientology released a statement about it was 90,000 square foot, and then, a month later, is 93,000 square foot, and now they're claiming it's 95,000 square foot. And then a month later, is 93 000 square foot, and now they're claiming it's 95 000 square foot. So in the space of three or four months it's grown massively. It's actually 75 800 square foot.

Speaker 2: 27:39

I've looked at the floor plans um, so, yeah, it was just good to go and have a presence there and it was, um, yeah, it was a really lovely, hot day. There weren't many people there. I'm sure they're going to claim that there were 2 000 scientologists there, but there really weren't. You know, 180 or so staff is what we've been told. Whether or not that's true I don't know, but if that's the case, then that means there were only about 300 people there in person attending this event, which is abysmal, really, for right, global expansion right and and in paris, of all places.

Speaker 1: 28:15

I mean, that's how many people are in paris?

Speaker 2: 28:18

it's huge and and half of the people there, I would estimate, were um foreign nationals. There were so many different languages. If you are a scientologist in europe and you are able to go to the ID Log opening, you're expected to. I bumped into at least 10 or 15 staff from London that I know from working there myself, and people have come from all over the local area when I say local area I mean Europe right and the UK to come to this event. So 50 to 80% were foreign nationals, which means the total number of French Scientologists at that event was so small it seemed like a big affair. But give it two or three days. That building is going to be as empty as any other ideal org and it's a shame that they are continuing to lie about their expansion and growth when it's just not the case.

Speaker 1: 29:08

It's a big lie their expansion and growth when it's just not the case. It's a big lie. Yeah, no, completely. And the ideal org real estate push is the way that david miscavige can enforce his own narrative that they're expanding when they absolutely are not, as you point out. Um, but if they can do it by square footage, they've grown their square footage. So you know, does that count?

Speaker 2: 29:32

yeah, I actually wanted to ask you about this actually. So david miscavige wasn't there. He did not open the paris ideologue. Now, in the run-up to this, yeah, um, mike rinder said that he didn't expect miscavige to be there because france has, like I said earlier, found scientology guilty of fraud and they're not liked or wanted and he's scared and he he expected he would chicken out. Um, scientology has sorry, miscavige has only missed I believe it's two ideologue openings in history and one of those is france, paris, just gone by.

Speaker 2: 30:09

I understand the idea that he would chicken out, but I also have to remind everybody that I have been tracking Tom Cruise's jets and his helicopters, and Tom Cruise's private jet flew from London to Paris last week on the exact day that everybody that's close to miscavige would had said he would be traveling to paris for the ideologue opening and it flew back an hour or two later. It was not in paris very long and then there was some movements of his helicopter that made me suspect that miscavige was in the uk. He was using tom cruise's jet to go to to paris, but he wasn't there. So I think he maybe visited and then flew back um, which is possible.

Speaker 2: 30:56

But also I reported miscavige and a whole list of individuals with their names of um shoot crew from gold and scientology media productions to the french authorities about a month ago and I said these people will be arriving in france in the next couple of days or weeks um to work, to film this event, to put on this production, and it's highly unlikely they will have the required work visas to do so. So just to let you know, I suspect these people will be committing visa fraud and they'll be working the country um. Do you think it's likely? I mean, it's a speculation. It's possible that he arrived and was denied entry because he was reported and he didn't have the work visa or whatever. I don't think we'll ever know, but do you think it's likely? Miscavige was that scared of france that he planned to not be there all along.

Speaker 1: 31:47

I do, I do. He is one of the most paranoid people that I've ever met, and it's because he's committed many crimes and so absolutely I think that he would not be wanting to show his face publicly. I absolutely would expect that he went there, did a tour, went through everything and then left. That that rings true to me. And, of course, yes, there would have been, you know, excitement generated by oh, david Miscavige is going to be here within the tiny world of Scientology. I'm talking here within the tiny world of scientology. I'm talking, um, but that would have been purely to get people there, even if he never planned to be there at any point even boots on the ground at the day we were trying to figure out is an scavenger.

Speaker 2: 32:40

And every scientologist, every security guard, every oser agent was like, well, maybe we don't know, we'll soon find out if he's, if he's here or not, and it like they, no one soon find out if he's here or not and no one would outright say no, he's not here. They wanted to have that sort of mystery and, ooh, maybe Miscavige is here and I get that. I think yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:00

What a coward.

Speaker 2: 33:02

He's such a coward.

Speaker 1: 33:03

I know, but really look at it Historically, hubbard did the exact same thing. You know, we've talked about this before the policy of the Sea Organization is to be Fabian is the word that is used meaning you never know when they're going to show up, and you know. It's this like avoiding any kind of government law enforcement, process, servers, media. Just avoid, avoid, avoid because of the abusive organization that they, that they formed and now continue.

Speaker 2: 33:47

So yeah, yeah I think one testament to france particularly is the. I did an interview with basically every major french newspaper or magazine that you know in france, uh, over the weekend, because they were all there and they weren't there because scientology had contacted them. They were there because I was trying to say, hey guys, this is opening, it's happening because scientology knows that it's not going to be favourable press in France. So the fact that they were all there and I spoke to them, the number one question I was asked was do we need to be worried, like, is this a danger to the local community? And I said ultimately, yes.

Speaker 2: 34:27

But France are well protected, probably one of the best protected countries that have taken on scientology because, like I say, it's considered a cult, legally, right, it's, it's classed as a sect. So the government have they pay a closer attention to what they're doing in terms of money and everything anyway. And then there's also the, the fraud, convictions and all it's like france don't accept scientology and they're I don't want to use lots of expletives, but they don't accept what what scientology getting up to, and so you're best protected. However, that doesn't mean they're not a harmful organization and they're going to use this because it's paris olympics are happening later this year. They're going to use it as a marketing ploy.

Speaker 2: 35:10

It's all a facade. It's a fake organization that is just trying to look like they're doing good work. And the biggest danger is not necessarily people walking off on the street nearby and being pulled in because it's in a business district, there isn't a lot of foot traffic. People aren't going to just be pulled in, but they play the long game and what they will do over the course of the next however many years, is try and make inroads with local government officials and with the police and you know, safe pointing so that over a period of time that they can get that cult um label overturned. And that's the danger is if the people of paris let it slip or or give up or just let them get on with it. That's the biggest danger, is what I was saying. I don't know if you kind of agree with that.

Speaker 1: 35:59

No, I do. I do Absolutely. I mean, they've planted themselves in, from their perspective, enemy territory and now they're going to, as you say, use their tactics to weasel in and gain acceptance slowly but surely, through fair means or foul, really. So, yeah, no, absolutely. That is a huge part of the danger that they present, and they use that glossy facade to try and woo people over to believe, oh look, they're doing this, they're doing that and of course it's all false yeah, and we saw a bit of that yesterday actually as well, because we there was probably maybe six or seven of us there.

Speaker 2: 36:44

It wasn't a huge protest and I made it very. There was a permit in place, so there was a lot of work beforehand. I didn't want to, um, be the one on the on the permit for a protest, because it's a foreign country, um, it's people that I don't know, um, the French chandomerie or French national police are known for being a little bit more aggressive towards protesters anyway, and I didn't want to put myself in a situation where I'm liable should anything go wrong. I'm happy to do that here in the UK because I'm fluent in English and I didn't want to put myself in a situation where I'm liable should anything go wrong. I'm happy to do that here in the UK because I'm fluent in English and I know the UK legal system.

Speaker 2: 37:19

My French is a bit rusty. I couldn't get myself out of a legal situation in France and I'm a foreign national, so I didn't want to be the one responsible. That didn't mean I didn't want to be involved somehow and was happy to help. And so a local resident who was protesting filed for a permit protest and there was like a designated area that we were allowed to be in. But the whole morning we were in a different area which was a lot closer to the big entrance of the org and we were. It was not really a protest, right, it was just we're just standing there watching things going on and I was live streaming. And the police came over and they said you know, are you protesting? And I said no, I'm just here live streaming, I'm recording this event and you know, I don't have any signs, I'm not shouting and screaming, I'm just, you know, filming it.

Speaker 2: 38:15

And that was fine for a little while until Scientology called the police and told them that we were being violent and we were hurling abuse at everybody and we were causing a scene and a big disruption, at which point I think four police cars showed up, 12 policemen were instantly there and it was the division of the police who deal with civil unrest, so the sort of people that show up when you call up and say there's a riot or there's a fight breaking out, it's the aggressive police department that come and sort this sort of stuff out.

Speaker 2: 38:38

And they were instantly really aggressive with us and we were moved to a different area. They took a picture of me and my passport and like, were really heavily on who am I and what am I doing here? More than the other protesters and I was wondering what was going on. And some other people realized that yeah, they were, that Scientology OSA operatives especially the lawyer for Scientology in France were showing the police pictures of me and they probably snapped me in the middle of saying something where I look like I'm shouting or something like this. That just makes me, paints me, in a bad light.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Yeah of course, and or they doctored the photos. They do that too, scientology does.

Speaker 2: 39:20

They've done that to us many times yeah, yeah, and just try to shut us down.

Speaker 2: 39:25

And, of course, the police are going to respond to a call that says there's a riot breaking out.

Speaker 2: 39:32

Um, naturally they have to, um, but we were so peaceful and quite quiet really it was like a really lovely day. We were just enjoying the sunshine and, you know, taking the opportunity to speak to people walking past, and we were really close to all of the Scientologists going in. So it was a very soft protest, if that makes sense, and yeah, yeah, and, and the police were just completely on it, and I think that that's probably the first time the local police have had to deal with the scientology tactics like this. Whether that means they're safe pointed, I don't know, um, but that's what I was trying to inform the police of. It's like look, this is only just the beginning of this. These guys are going to cause a lot of issues for you in the local area like this that aren't harmful in themselves, but it's wasting police time and resources and they're lying to you. You should be, you know, going in there and arresting them for all of the crimes they're committing, not treating us with such aggression right and?

Speaker 1: 40:31

and what about even lying to the police that there's a riot or whatever? I mean gosh. But again, it does show and highlight Scientology's tactics and how they continue to try and get away with operating as an abusive organization, even in a country that has called them on fraud correctly. So Anyway, we'll see where that all goes. I'm glad you stayed safe and that everything went well despite Scientology. So good job.

Speaker 2: 41:03

Thank you, absolutely. I'm continuing to do this. Can we talk about Narconon as well, a little bit while we're here.

Speaker 2: 41:09

Sure yeah, of course, another major thing that's been going on. So Shanti Das, who is a reporter for the observer, the guardian um newspaper, another major newspaper here in the uk, um, were I was contacted by her in may I think it was of last year, um and she was looking into knocking on the drug rehabilitation center that's um, supported by scientology, and was like is there a story there, what do you know? And I kind of advised her, I was working with her for several months and then she went away and did her investigation and then came back 10 months later and front page news on one of the largest newspapers in the UK was Scientology linked. You know drug rehab center is dangerous and left people traumatized. And she went undercover and got some really good testimonies from people of how the program preys upon vulnerable adults with drug problems and then forces them to do scientology techniques and you know trs and objectives and appear of which are ultimately harmful and damaging to your mental health. Massive respect to her for doing that.

Speaker 2: 42:11

And then a week or two later followed up with another article confirming that the cqc, the care quality commission, which is the regulator for drug rehab centers, was investigating narcanon. And I can now confirm that the charity commission, which looks after non-profits and and the tax exemption, are also now investigating narcanon here in the uk and that's all a direct response to this investigation from this journalist. That's been ongoing for a year. These things take time, but it's really important we're starting to see kind of things like this happen and I'm going to continue doing everything I can to try and try and keep this stuff coming right no, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 42:50

Likewise, whatever, whatever I can do to help, I'm here for it and we'll keep doing the work. And, uh, and again, yeah, it's not something to take on lightly. So great respect for the work you're doing, and also to those um in the media who are brave enough to persist and get to the actual truth. Um, because we need a lot more of that, a lot more before this is, before anything effective is going to happen to shut down this, this abusive organization yeah, absolutely, and you know it's not just one person like I.

Speaker 2: 43:26

You know, sometimes I feel very alone in what I'm doing here in the uk because there isn't a great number of ex-scientologists speaking out in the uk. There have been people speaking out in the past and there are people that are speaking out I'm not the only one and I'm not certainly not the first but there's certainly not as many here as there are in the US. So it's already like an uphill battle. I do feel quite alone sometimes, but to know that I've got the support of yourself and other people who are might not be here in person, but are helping with investigations or providing information or testimony or whatever's needed, is really, really helpful. And I just wanted to pay tribute to to you and everybody else that have helped with that and say that the more people that engage with journalists, the more people that come on youtube and start sharing their experiences, the more people that write a blog or whatever it may be.

Speaker 2: 44:14

Everybody's activism is helpful, in whichever way you want to do it. It's like a multi-pronged attack. There's no right or wrong way to protest or go about this business. You know everyone's efforts have value and we do it together, so like whether you're protesting on the streets or whether you're talking to journalists and press, or whether you're writing a blog, even if you're just commenting on a video like this, that supports the effort, and it's a numbers game. The more people that are engaged in this activism, the better. Yes, that's my call to arms. I suppose yes, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 44:48

Yes, no, absolutely, and again yes. Hats off to anyone brave enough to step into this and do the work, because it does have to be done. Fair game is real. Scientology is an abusive organization. We will continue to expose and and hopefully save many people from getting lured in and and lied to and and then to be in a vulnerable position where they can have their lives destroyed. You know I've been there and I will continue to do everything I can to help people get out and to expose what they do. So anyway, thank you so much for your time today. We definitely should do another part comparing our parallels of experiences from your Scientology story. You know we've talked there's so much we could talk about, but you've had a very long weekend, so thank you so much for your time. Get some rest. Great, great job, Good job, staying safe. Thank you for everything you do and we'll talk again soon.

Speaker 2: 45:57

Thank you so much, claire, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 45:59

Alrighty Bye.

Speaker 3: 46:03

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have hail Zinu Zinu is myboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you could click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.