Surviving Scientology's Legal Shenanigans - Scientology Stories #43

Caught in the crosshairs of a legal behemoth, Claire and I have weathered the storm and emerged with stories that could fill volumes. Our skirmish with Scientology's notorious legal machine is just the tip of the iceberg in this episode, as we peel back the layers on the devious tactics and prolonged warfare that the organization wields to silence its critics. From courtroom strategies to the unyielding resolve required to stand one's ground, we bring you firsthand accounts of the intricate legal battles, the exhaustion of settlement funds, and the sweet victory of speaking out without the gag of a court order.

Navigating the treacherous waters of reputation management, we share a sobering tale of how Scientology's smear tactics nearly capsized our business during a pivotal financial deal. It's a candid look at how malicious online attacks can spill over into the professional realm and the critical importance of allies who see beyond the slander. We also shine a light on the enduring harassment from Scientology despite our long departure, underlining the conversation with a broader perspective on public awareness and the solidarity we've found among those who've been unjustly targeted.

In the shadowy corners of Scientology, there exists a silent but significant faction of "under the radar" members—those who confide in us, sharing their stories and struggles. As we weave through these intimate revelations, we also celebrate the positive ripples our departure from Scientology has created for others still within its grip. With humor and a touch of irony, we muse on the unexpected perks of family estrangement and the peculiar dynamics it has spared us from. Buckle up for an episode that traverses the bumpy road of legal battles, the pursuit of justice, and the personal triumphs amidst the chaos of taking on a formidable foe.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to the channel. I'm your host, Mark Headley. Joined with me today is Claire Headley, my beautiful wife.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Hey, hey.

Speaker 1: 0:21

Hey, hey, if you're listening to this on the podcast, we had a break or two I think it might have been a week or maybe even two weeks where we didn't have a podcast come out, and if you're watching this on YouTube, it may have been weeks or months since you watched, like a video that's come out every single week, kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 0:46

So we had a lot of episodes that we had banked and we have been so busy between Claire and myself we have had our businesses are blowing up right now with business, with work and and projects, and, and we've been working on that. And there was another thing that started happening more and more over the past few months that was sort of taking us away from this, and that was fishing. I've been going fishing with my youngest son, my middle son and my Actually all three guys have been fishing with us. All three of the kids, but mainly the youngest one and the middle one, have been doing the fishing, and so we have been devoting a lot of time to that, and when we're doing that, we're not doing other stuff, true true, and hey, since the last time you and I talked, I got my GED.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Yay, and our oldest son finished high school.

Speaker 1: 1:49

That's right. We have been the Headley household and, for, for those of you who don't know and think that and the only way you know us is through the podcast or through YouTube or X or wherever you watch us or see what we're doing here Um, claire has a company, uh that she runs full-time, and then she also works, uh, for another company, um, that she that she does work on, and, um, and those, both of those things have been very, very busy. And then I myself also have a full-time company and last year, um, we had two really, really big projects that we had lined up for the entire year due to I want to say we'll just leave it to government snafus projects didn't actually happen. One of them is happening just a year late and one of them just disappeared altogether, and that left a giant hole in our year last year.

Speaker 1: 2:51

So we had other time to spend doing other things, and now those holes have all been filled back up by work and business and we have we probably have about 10 ongoing big projects at my company and so, yeah, so, if you haven't seen us and you've been wondering why you haven't seen us, that is the reason why. But we're here now and we're back today and we're going to try, we're going to try more and more to do regular content, at least one podcast or one video or one interview. We're going to try to do at least one a week. But obviously our businesses and our personal lives take precedence over this content. So anyway, but-.

Speaker 2: 3:37

So, in other words, thank you for your patience. Everybody we appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 3:41

We will keep doing what we've been doing, as much as we can had a ton of stuff happening with projects that we're working on and outreach campaigns and new programs and new members and new board members and new staff, and so there's a lot of stuff happening in that front and um, and we have been helping a ton of people get out of Scientology guys and uh, so that's also kept. Uh, any kind of spare time we've had has also been being spent on that. So the, the, unfortunately the YouTube and the podcast is kind of the that gets the, the leftovers of Claire and Mark time, but but we're here today, Sad, sad but true.

Speaker 2: 4:42

You know, it's just the fact of life.

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yes, we're here today and and we wanted know it's just the fact of life. Yes, we're here today and we wanted to give you guys a little bit of an update on you know what's been going on, Because, depending on how you get content, you may or may not have seen us in a few weeks or a few months or however long it is, but we're still here. Everything's been going amazing. We've been having great success.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Everything's been going amazing. We've been having great success and, yeah, I think we Laura Baxter, and the second one is Valerie Haney. Um, valerie Haney, there were articles on um over at Tony Ortega's um underground bunker covering recent developments that Valerie has had with the shall we call it farce, known as arbitration, and the reason I wanted to talk about this today specifically is because it occurred to me that during our lawsuit, which was we filed our lawsuit in 2009, which was we filed our lawsuit in 2009, and that was ongoing until 2012.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Not, once did arbitration ever come up? Yeah, and I do remember that early on in the case they had provided, as part of the discovery process, as part of the discovery process, they had provided every single contract and every single Sea Org contract or staff agreement or liability waiver or actor release form. They had provided everything we'd ever signed. And it was kind of crazy we hadn't really signed that many documents in the overall scheme of things and it almost looked like there should have been more that they didn't provide.

Speaker 1: 6:53

And when we asked the lawyer about that, he said there might have been other documents that you signed or other agreements that you signed. That would be a liability on their part to provide those. Like there was language in those agreements or there was things in there that you just can't agree to. You can't agree to give away your rights, and so we had just assumed that that would that. And also, to be fair, I was. That was one of the original reasons why I was willing to speak out against Scientology is I had read that any documents that you signed when you were there, they have no legal force on you. Like you can't agree to not report something that's illegal or you can't agree you can't sign a document that says people can break the law. That's not a thing.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Yeah, you can't be forced to sign a document, a legal document that you have no understanding of what your rights are. You have no legal representation yourself and in many cases, you signing that document is requisite to even being able to leave the room.

Speaker 1: 8:15

Yeah, or see your family or any of these other things. So at that time it was always my impression that they don't have any legal grounds to be able to come after us for speaking out, and to this date, scientology has never been able to stop us from speaking out in any way whatsoever.

Speaker 2: 8:41

No, they tried very hard of course out in any way whatsoever about. No, they tried very hard of course by um. In the final event of things, we lost our appeal and were told to pay 42 800 in legal costs to scientology. And scientology said we will waive that bill for you if you never agree, never to speak out, ever again turn over the rights to your book, blown for good behind the iron curtain of scientology, and snitch on any former scientologists we talked to, any media we talked to, etc.

Speaker 1: 9:18

So, needless to say, we did not accept that offer yeah, we just paid the money and said, no, it's OK, we'll take care of these stupid legal fees that they racked up. That's the other thing. A lot of people don't understand that Usually the legal fees in one of these cases is going to be, like you know, $5,000 or $8,000 or whatever it is. When we were doing our lawsuit with Scientology, they were getting video depositions and getting rush charges on files and getting multiple copies of things, knowing that if they racked these up as much as they could, if in effect they did win or something did happen, then those would be our bills that would have to be paid, not theirs. So they were playing this game like there a literally a deposition. When at the end of the deposition, um, the lawyers say they, they say some verbiage that they all say every single time they ever do a deposition. That makes it so both parties the defendants and the uh, the claimants, or whatever however it's called, um can both get a free copy of the deposition from the court. And uh and our lawyer said that.

Speaker 1: 10:30

And then Moxon Ken Moxon he was the uh lawyer representing Scientology also just happened to be a co-conspirator in, uh, the largest infiltration of the uh United States government in its history. Uh, google, ken Moxon infiltration of the United States government and its history. Google, Ken Moxon, unindicted co-conspirator. He's Scientology's in-house attorney, he's a Scientologist, he's OT fluffity, fluff or whatever it is, and his wife is a Scientologist and his daughter was a Scientologist and she just happened to unalive herself at the international headquarters because she wasn't allowed to go take a day off. Anyway, ken Moxon said no, no, no, we're not doing that. We're going to do it this way and that way. We're going to file it like this.

Speaker 1: 11:13

And then our lawyer said but then that means you'll have to pay for it. And then Ken Moxon smiled and he says yeah, I'll take two as well. So he was going to get whatever it was going to cost. Say, it was going to cost $1,500 to get a, a video transcript or copies of that thing. He asked for two.

Speaker 1: 11:30

So, um, but, but the point of all this was that, um, when the case was first being started, there was no, there was never a mention of this arbitration thing that I remember. This had never, ever come up and, um, and we weren't subjected to any kind of sort of arbitration. We and the cases excuse me, there were many cases like ours that were filed at the same time. I I had previously previously said it was like three or four I think it was actually five or six in the end of the actual amount of people, and Scientology eventually was able to get to every single one of those people or undermine the case based on a technicality, so that in the end there were only two cases that were left going forward out of this whole bunch of different people that were all filing lawsuits with the same attorney at the same time Barry.

Speaker 2: 12:31

Van.

Speaker 1: 12:31

Sickle.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Yeah, and none of those included a requirement to go to arbitration, which is why I thought this is worth talking about, because arbitration came into play during the Garcia lawsuit, which was very, very different than causes of action relating to being in the C organization. The Garcia lawsuit related to attempts to get back donations that were made to Scientology, so the Garcias were public or civilian Scientologists.

Speaker 1: 13:10

Yeah, they didn't sign a contract to work for Scientology. They just gave Scientology larbs sums of money for counseling and courses and for these kind of imaginary level you know statuses they have in Scientology to reach a higher social status in Scientology. You give these amounts of money and they award you a patron or a patron meritorious or a honoris gluteus maximus, whatever they have.

Speaker 2: 13:43

It gets bigger and bigger depending on how many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars that you donate to scientology right, exactly, but the point being, too, it's a very, very different relationship a civilian scientologist to scientology versus a member of the sea Organization, which was the case for both Valerie Haney and Valeska Parris and Gawain and Laura Baxter they were all members of the Sea Organization. All became members of the Sea Organization either as a child, at birth, at a very, very young age, and so never knew life outside of the C organization. So to have a situation where judges are currently blanket applying arbitration to these lawsuits when they are actually completely different and when there are precedents our lawsuit, for example, where there was no such thing as arbitration we're not just saying there was no such thing as arbitration, we're not just saying there's no such thing as arbitration there.

Speaker 1: 14:48

this is a legal strategy that's been developed and employed by the multi-million dollar law firm scientology employs yeah, the other thing is that this what there might have been an evolution of how this came to be, because in the past Scientology really relied on just people being afraid to speak out.

Speaker 1: 15:15

And then by the time people are out long enough, out of Scientology in the real world, getting used to getting a job and getting a place to live, and all these things Scientology in the real world, getting used to, you know, getting a job and getting a place to live, and all should do something. I should make them pay for this or make it so they can't do this to other people. By the time they would get to that point, either the statutes of limitations had run on whatever possible causes of action they had, or a lawyer would not be willing to take their case. So they really relied on these as the main factors. The people are scared, the statutes have run, no lawyer's going to be silly enough to go up against Scientology, and that sort of was their defense for decades.

Speaker 2: 16:21

Yeah, and, by the way, to illustrate that point, in the final judgment, when our case was closed out, the judge said had we pursued other causes of action, such as false imprisonment, assault and battery, and maybe one or two others, we may have fared differently. Someone asked me the other day well, why didn't you then pursue those causes of action? Someone asked me the other day well, why didn't you then pursue those causes of action? Well, our statute of limitations had run out by the time.

Speaker 1: 16:49

The judge we did have those causes of action in the beginning.

Speaker 2: 16:54

Yes, we had some of those.

Speaker 1: 16:56

That's right. And also the case that they ended up. Remember, I said there was only two cases left. Well, after our case was dismissed, there was some other back and forth legal jockeying that was done in regards to this other case and they were going to lose. Scientology was going to lose that other case. There was no way out for them and that case did have those other causes of action in it. And so when our law firm was the same law firm that was doing that other case, they decided they made a causative decision. Your case we're going to do human trafficking and in this other case we're going to leave the whole kit and caboodle in there. And it was sort of like we don't know which one's going to go, but we're going to try both in case one doesn't. Well, we got the one that didn't go and the other parties got the one that did go and they ended up settling. And the reason they ended up settling is because it would have set a legal precedent for Scientology that would have made it so anyone else with that same sort of set of circumstances would have been able to come forward.

Speaker 1: 18:06

Now when you say well, why didn't? Some people I know I can hear the comments. Well, why do those other people settle when you're doing a case against Scientology? That's very likely costing Scientology tens of millions of dollars. It may cost your law firm hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars for them to bring the case against Scientology and they make you sign it. It's required. At least it was required in our case.

Speaker 1: 18:35

I don't know how this works with other attorneys, but in our case, at a certain point during the case, when it looked like one of these cases was going to win, we had to sign documents saying that if a viable or reasonable settlement was reached that we would accept it. And there's a little bit of wiggle room in there. But if, like they said, hey, scientology says they want to give you $250,000, we could say, come on, that's ridiculous, we've already spent, you know. Says they want to give you $250,000, we could say, come on, that's ridiculous, we've already spent, you know, 500,000 on this case ourselves. They could say, well, scientology has come with a $40 million offer. Well, you're signing. You can't. There's no, you're done. That's a reason. That's there's no way you're going to argue me that that's not a reasonable settlement offer. So I don't know what the settlement offer was in that case. But I know it was enough where everyone was like we're good, we're going to, we're going to end this thing.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Yeah, and in the end, honestly, I'm, I'm just incredibly grateful we were not gagged. We're still here.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Yeah, that's the other thing.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Um, when, when you do that, then that's it All the talking about Scientology, all the exposing Scientology.

Speaker 1: 19:50

When you get a check with X amount of zeros on it that is now legally in force, if you want to get the zeros, you got to quit the yapping about Scientology. So in our case it worked out that they did end up having to settle a case, but so Scientology figured out this arbitration thing when they did the Garcia case, and then somebody somewhere was like, hey, we could just use this for all these cases, and then this has now become one of their sort of legal strategies that they employ. One of the other things that they do, which not a lot of people know, is they will just prolong these cases for eternity. So I don't remember when the Wallersheim case was started against Scientology, but it went on for years and years and years and years, and it was just Scientology. Even after Scientology had years and years and years and years, and it was just Scientology. Even after the Scientology had lost and they'd been ordered to pay this guy if the case was done, they still dragged it out and dragged it out.

Speaker 2: 20:54

Yeah, what was the mantra that David Miscavige came up with? Wasn't it not one thin dime for Wallerstein?

Speaker 1: 21:02

And then Wallerstein was like like, uh, they gave me three, uh, whatever it was 300 000 dimes or you know however many millions of dollars they paid him. Um, he said it would have filled a dump truck to get to, to deliver dump trucks and dump trucks to give all the dimes that they actually ended up sending me. But, um, scientology delayed that case until I think it was they awarded him 30 million and then it went down to 10 million or 15. I don't know all the details. It's been a long time, but in the end he did get paid. But the case had been going on for so many years that almost all that money went to attorneys and people that had been involved in the case and they wanted this cut and this guy got this cut and so by the time the settlement happened and they did actually end up paying, the money was got. You know it was. It had already been spent years and years prior.

Speaker 1: 21:56

So Scientology will delay. They will say you didn't serve us. That you know. You see all the things they do. That is their set thing and it's in L Ron Hubbard policies for the office of special affairs, where he tells people, he, he tells the people that are supposed to be running these cases in Scientology drag this thing out forever. The other person's not going to be able to. They won't be able to keep up with us, that we'll just. We have all the money that we need to spend on this and we have forever. We don't care if this case goes on for 30 years. A person or, in our case, a couple who's having to pay for it and they're having to pay a lawyer and the lawyer has to pay his bills, and you can't just keep spending money without any money coming in. And Scientology does. This is the way they have it set up currently. They are committing the crime. They are not reporting the crime. If the crime does get reported, then they automatically become the judge and the prosecutor in the case against them.

Speaker 2: 23:26

Yeah, and of course the crazy Valerie Haney. Let's just talk about Valerie for a minute. She's being dragged through arbitration by the people she had to escape in the back of a car from their headquarters and now a judge has deemed fit that she should go back to her abusers. That's to me where I really hope. I I know it will eventually. I have confidence that eventually things will sort themselves out. Hopefully our conversation today can, somewhere down the line, contribute to that motion, because Valerie's causes of action were very similar to ours.

Speaker 2: 24:10

She was a member of the SEER organization. She had to escape, we had to escape. You were run off the road by the police. She had to escape in the trunk of a car. They're way more similar than a situation of donations and a request for refund. They're worlds apart.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. The other thing that's kind of wild about this whole thing is that the lawyers that are working for Scientology they likely know that this is. I mean, I don't know how they couldn't know that they're working for the bad guys. That's got to be a thing. I mean, they're getting paid millions and tens of millions of dollars to do what they're doing. But another lawyer reached out to me through somebody that we know personally and said I think maybe going after the lawyers is the way to end this, because you realize that another strategy that Scientology has is that they hire so many attorneys in so many states and they always try to hire the best possible, the most expensive attorneys. Well, in a lot of casesmoreau he's a judge now in California.

Speaker 2: 25:47

He's a judge.

Speaker 1: 25:49

So what happens is, when these cases go to the courts, the judges are like I'm out, I used to work for those guys, I have to, I have to, I can't do this case. And they what's it called Recruise? Recuse themselves.

Speaker 2: 26:04

Recuse.

Speaker 1: 26:05

They have to recruit. They have For some reason, my mouth does not want to say that word Recuse they have to recuse themselves.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Yep, this has happened on cases where you go. Oh no, that judge had to rec um. His father won a case against scientology in the, in the I want to say in the 1980s against l? Ron hubbard himself um burt kreischer's dad was an attorney in florida won a case against l? Ron hubbard. After that case, after Hubbard lost that case, they hired Bert Kreischer's dad as an attorney, not so that they could use him to go after people, so that he couldn't go after them. So you got to dig. Scientology has been playing this legal hopscotch game with everybody. They've been playing this game for 70 years that's how long they've been manipulating this system. So they know all the ways. And so if you can have somebody who leaves Scientology, they know right away that they were wronged and they're willing to file a case. You get past the statutes. Now you've got to find an attorney that is willing to go up against Scientology and then you have to have a good case, and you have to. There has to have been something that was done that was wrong.

Speaker 2: 27:56

Right and that yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:58

And that's like a legal, that's like a, that's like a what do you call that where they that's like a spartan race to get through all that stuff to get to the court, and now the courts are just like now you got to go back to scientology and and they'll tell you if it was wrong or right. It's like you've got to be kidding me.

Speaker 2: 28:15

We went through all that to get to here? Yeah, and let's just pause for a moment and emphasize the fact that Scientology is alleging that they have this arbitration. That's part of their what their religious scripture? Ok, if that's the case, and if L Ron Hubbard died in 1986, why was there no arbitration ever in the history of lawsuits relating to Scientology until what? 2014? Yeah, why that alone that one scenario debunks and proves that this is a fabrication by Scientology lawyers. Scientology lawyers because Scientology has been using legal strategies to evolve and change their approach, like you said, based on situations where they have been exposed.

Speaker 1: 29:30

Yeah, scientology is evolving with it. Legal nonsense because they are able to manipulate the system because they have lawyers that they're paying tens of millions of dollars are to to that. Can research, what's this and how can we do this? And, based on this case, we should be do this. And sometimes a lot of these things are nonsense. But they're overloading the court with so many things that the court now has an they. The court now has a get out of jail free card from Scientology nonsense. And that is oh, you guys have your own policies on how to deal with this, so we're going to kick it back to you and the court system is like good, we don't have to deal with it.

Speaker 1: 30:15

The, the, the court systems get paid by their governments, or their local or the federal or wherever it is. They're sucking all this money down by dealing with Scientology and they can't do other things. So shunting it off is good for the court system. It's not good for the victims. It's great for the lawyers and it's great for Scientology, but that's really all. Those are the. Those are the two main beneficiaries of Scientology's legal nonsense. But, yeah, there's got to be a way that the arbitration thing can get killed and right now. That's really the key thing, and there are attorneys out there that would love to do this and would love to figure out this problem. I don't think there's firms attorney firms or law firms that are willing to spend the money. That's the. That's where you you can have a passionate attorney who's all about getting justice. But they've got to have support, they've got to have books to go up against Scientology.

Speaker 2: 31:28

Yeah, and as we know personally, it's no joke going up against Scientology. I mean no joke at all.

Speaker 1: 31:35

Well, that's the other thing that not a lot of people talk about. Is that okay? So let's say you do go up against Scientology, you're an attorney or you're a judge or you're a juror. Scientology does the same thing that they do to anybody else they find out everything about you and they find out what your dirty, darkest little secrets are, and it doesn't matter who you are. Find out what your dirty, darkest little secrets are, and it doesn't matter who you are. If you, if you jump into the Scientology machine, then that's that's definitely a factor.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Now, whether you do have something, that's you know, something they can use as leverage, or don't? They're banking on the perception that that thing that you do think is the thing they're going to use that thing so. So there have been judges and jurors and attorneys and other individuals in the system that know if you do this, you better be squeaky clean, you better be willing to let it all hang out, because Scientology is going to hang it all out for you, whether you want it hung out or not. And so that's this extra added thing that you not only have somebody, you have to have all those things I talked about earlier. That attorney also has to be willing to take some hits and it's not like you know. It's not like youtube or it's not like the podcast. In real life you're out there, you're taking the hits. It's real, it's not. It's not.

Speaker 2: 33:10

uh, you know a comment, it's you know no, it's like you're being followed by private investigators investigators you have to worry about exactly in real life.

Speaker 1: 33:21

Yeah, and they're digging into your business, they're digging into your personal life. They're digging into your trash maybe your clients.

Speaker 2: 33:33

Yes, for sure. I mean they did that to you last year. They did that to me last year.

Speaker 1: 33:38

They mess with your clients now. So your clients and both Claire and I have had this in our companies. Our clients don't know anything about this crazy world, and then Scientology is making sure that they're going to find out about it by either contacting them or they have ways of making sure that somebody they need to know something finds out that thing. And then when they do that, you're like, is that going to be a problem?

Speaker 2: 34:06

Right, like last year, they, they, they, stan League did a whole Twitter campaign against me to our entire town.

Speaker 1: 34:15

Yes.

Speaker 2: 34:15

Including my clients.

Speaker 1: 34:17

Yeah, and we ended up getting more business because of that, not less, but more, because it was so outrageously over that almost anybody seeing it could be like, oh, what's this all about? And then they find they go okay, yeah, this is. These guys are a little bit, these guys are a little bit excitable over there in Scientology world.

Speaker 2: 34:37

But or are they like? I had a client make a comment Keep doing the work, keep doing the work, good job. So I'm like OK, you know it's, it's not for everybody.

Speaker 1: 34:50

Yeah, I think we had. I don't know if we ever told this story, but we had a company that we would buy. My company installs audio visual systems for museums and presidential libraries and stuff like that and and we were buying. I want to say we were buying like several hundred thousand dollars worth of projectors for a project and in order to get that amount of equipment sent to us, we had to go through an additional level of financial inspection or something like that. When you buy over, I think when you buy over like a half a million dollars with anything, you kind of jump up your credit level or whatever.

Speaker 1: 35:29

One of the company's CFOs who was in charge of doing this, he Googled us and he goes oh yeah, don't give these guys anything. There's a whole bunch of bad stuff about them. Well, well, our representative at the company that we worked with we'd been working with for years and years was like whoa, whoa, whoa. I know these guys, I know the whole story that that's just craziness that these people scientology put on the internet. If you knew the story. Um, these guys are, you know they're. They're rock, we need to hook them up. And we did end up getting the approval and the CFO did saw like, oh, I see I got it. Okay, but just a cursory inspection was a problem that we just happened to have some guy who knew us at the company, who knew the backstory and oh, by the way, we never knew that. He knew that.

Speaker 2: 36:19

I was just going to say that, yeah he never told us that this had even come up until after he'd taken care of it. And again, that's the power of everything that's happened in the last 10 years in terms of exposing Scientology and the public awareness of the abuses of Scientology, like the Lawrence Wright's book, the Going Clear, hbo documentary, leah Remini, scientology in the Aftermath three series and then obviously continuing with books and exposés and podcasts and everything else.

Speaker 1: 36:54

Yeah. So I don't even remember how I ended up. Oh, because so they're going to go when Scientology has a campaign against you or you're a problem for them there, that we haven't seen any limit of what they will do. They will do anything and every, and never in a million years what I have expected. Never in a million years would I have expected they would go to clients of mine. Fortunately for me, that worked out in my favor In all instances. I don't know of the negative ones. I'm sure there have been negative things. I'm sure I've lost projects or things have happened, but it's not enough for me to spend a lot of time or effort trying to figure it out or quantify it or whatever. So the times I do hear about it, the times it does get back to me, it's usually very supportive and I can't believe these guys are doing this and that's wild. And I've seen a bunch of stuff, or I read your book, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 38:03

So and when are they ever going to leave you alone?

Speaker 1: 38:07

Remember when we were doing this. We were doing this when, when I, when, when we were located in California and we're talking, you know, 2010, ish, 2009. And they're like you left that place five years ago. Why are they still messing with? And then, so you know, it's kind of ironic when you know 2024 rolls around and then somebody says, oh my gosh, they've been messing. When did you leave? I left in 2005. And it's like they're still trying to ruin you. And and so a lot of people go like, hey, why are you guys still talking about this? It's been 20 years almost. It's literally our anniversary in January is coming up right of being gone for 20 years from Scientology, and people are like why are you still? Because they have hate sites about us and we're literally just filling the vacuum of the nonsense that they put out there.

Speaker 2: 39:03

Yeah, they're still getting away with the same old crimes they've been doing for seven decades and they're getting away with arbitration nonsense and fooling judges and court systems and continuing to perpetrate abuse on victims. So, yes, you bet we're going to keep talking about it and, behind the scenes, we'll keep having the many, many conversations we have had and will continue to have with many different law enforcement agencies.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Yeah, we have to.

Speaker 2: 39:32

I mean, between the two of us. We've spent easily probably close to 200 hours now A lot With law enforcement, Probably close to 200 hours now A lot With law enforcement, and not just in America.

Speaker 1: 39:43

I've spent, you know, probably days or maybe even weeks spending time with European government officials or law enforcement on all the things that we're telling you right now. They have to be educated on how they get around not only the court systems, but the police side of things. How are these crimes not being reported to police, how are these things going on? And they're able to kind of, you know, dance around the laws or regulations in different countries. And so we have to have to have to maintain a very respectful relationship with law enforcement and give them as much information and also be there when they have questions so you might talk to somebody and they might go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that you know, we, that's a problem, we don't know how to figure it out. And then, six months from now, they get a call and then they say, hey, we, that's a problem, we don't know how to figure it out. And then, six months from now, they get a call and then they say, hey, we got one, and you go, okay, good, this is what we're going to do.

Speaker 1: 40:47

And so you have to maintain that relationship and also they, the, the, the law enforcement personnel have to be willing to have a conversation with you, and you have to be willing to have a conversation with them. This is not a thing where you can just be like I'm the expert. If you want to know, then contact me. You have to be willing to learn what problems they're facing on their end and how Scientology is manipulating their own internal policies. So there's a lot of moving parts to all this, and not all of this has to happen on YouTube or on the podcast, or so you know.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Many parts are actually better behind the scenes and we can talk about it when we can, when we will or when we can, when we will, we will when we can A lot of times also we don't remember, because we've been doing this for so long, guys, almost two decades now. We've been helping people get out and trying to educate the courts and the lawyers and the police and but so sometimes we go. Did we ever talk about that? Like that crazy thing happened? Did we ever talk about that? It was like no, remember we? We couldn't talk about that because there was this other case that was happening and we didn't want to tip scientology off on that thing. So the times that we do tell you stories and how we did something is because we know scientology is pretty much you know they already know 99 of the story.

Speaker 2: 42:15

This extra one percent's not going to kill anything, or mess anything up um like when people the way people escaped or yeah, like what the person that we helped escape from the headquarters years ago we I don't think we told that story publicly for at least 10 years because we had hoped that perhaps some other people would get out the same way yeah, and the other crazy thing is that sometimes we don't tell the story for so long that Scientology doesn't ever really find out what happened.

Speaker 1: 42:47

And then somebody else escapes and then they ask us, hey, did you ever know what happened to blah, blah, blah? And we're like, oh yeah, we helped them break out and blah, blah. And they're like nobody knows what happened to that person. And then they've even told us that Scientology has told stories about those people, about how they were promoted or they went to another facility because they couldn't tell us, they could never say that that person escaped, so they'd have to tell some kind of short story to their own people to be like, oh yeah, it always made sense to me that blah, blah, blah would get promoted or that, no, that person's a total raving SP now and they escaped.

Speaker 1: 43:27

So it's funny that, um, we do find out sometimes, when people do escape, late years after another person has escaped, what Scientology knew or didn't know, or you know, or what they were telling, at least what they were telling the staff, you know, even though in our heart of hearts we suspected that they knew what that had happened with some of these people, because that's another thing. When we help someone escape, we usually see stuff pick up on our end Like there's a direct correlation of nonsense that we see in our world when we're helping more and more people escape. So the fact that I mean in the past year, scientology has been very active in in our kind of world and we see that as a direct correlation to the people that we're reaching and the people that we're talking to, and so so yeah, there's all. And, by the way, guys, if you think there's no news in Scientology right now, there's plenty of news and there's plenty of stuff happening. It's just not, it just hasn't made it to public consumption yet.

Speaker 1: 44:37

But I would say I would say probably over the next year or two there's going to be a crazy amount of stuff that people are going to find out about and things that are going to be happening that's going to be exposing Scientology and sort of continuing to keep them in the limelight. Since they've had this really, you know, bad result in the Masterson case, this is going to be a continuation. So they may have these little victories what is it? They may be winning these little battles, but they're certainly not winning the war.

Speaker 1: 45:14

There is stuff happening that's definitely kicking them in the backside, happening. That's definitely kicking them in the backside and we encourage anybody and everybody who wants to contribute or wants to help or you know, do what you can do to expose this. If you know of somebody or you know about a victim, let somebody know, let law enforcement know. That's another key thing that whenever we do talk to law enforcement, they need people to report things to them. Whether they think it's a big deal or whether it's a small deal, it doesn't really matter the severity of the crime. If a crime has been committed and it is reported, it adds up, it kind of stacks up. And if they go in the file and they say, hey, we've gotten the 19th report of something happening at this location, it gives them a little bit more leverage to be able to use their internal system to find out what's going on.

Speaker 1: 46:17

And even if Scientology does have a good relationship in in the local area or with somebody at the police station or whatever, if those reports keep stacking up, that sorts to not be. That. It's tends not to be the biggest advantage for Scientology when there's multiple, multiple reports. Yeah, Um, was there anything else? What else I'm trying to think we had, we talked, so the can then add up for the prosecutors and for the court system be like well, why do you have, if you, if you do have, this internal arbitration, then why do we have, you know, 72 people reporting you that you've been doing this thing?

Speaker 2: 47:21

Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 47:23

Can't you guys arbitrate on your end before it gets to us? So there's got to be and that's also. That might also be something If something has happened to you or you were a victim, and the arbitration thing that they're calling arbitration in the C organization or in Scientology they're called committee of evidences and that is sort of like one of the highest highest justice actions that you can be subjected to as a Scientologist. If you get a committee of evidence, that means you very likely could be being declared a suppressive person or this whole thing was a big misunderstanding. Most of the time you're getting declared a suppressive person and you're going to have to make up the damage and give money and make amends to people.

Speaker 2: 48:18

Yeah, to be fair, I've never seen an outcome of a committee of evidence be that you got off scot-free and everything was wonderful.

Speaker 1: 48:25

yeah, that's a committee of evidence in the real world is called a kangaroo court right um, usually what happens in the sea organization if someone's getting a committee of evidence, or even a civilian scientologist, is um, david miscavige or somebody in in scientology has been hurt by you as an individual, whether you're a Sea Org member or a civilian. You've done something to piss them off and you're going to get a spanking. That's how it boils down. That's how it is. So it's usually not like oh, this was a big misunderstanding. You're right. That might be like a point point, a point oh, oh, oh, oh, one percent chance of oh, this was a big misunderstanding. It's almost always this person's in real big trouble.

Speaker 1: 49:17

And also in the sea organ, in Scientology and amongst civilian Scientologists, if you're getting a committee of evidence, you're in big trouble with Scientology. It doesn't, that's not. They don't do that all the time. So if they're doing that, um, you're in big trouble and you're probably um, there's a very likely chance that we're never going to hear from you ever again. Like, uh, if you're a Scientology child and you're at a Scientology school and your parents get declared a suppressive person, you're, you can't talk to them anymore. If it's just your dad, then your mom's now a single parent. You're not to see your dad.

Speaker 1: 49:57

You're not going to talk to your dad. He's a suppressive person, he's gone from your life. So it's a very, very big deal in Scientology to get a committee of evidence and then also, the consequences of a committee of evidence are very, very severe. So to think that that is the mechanism which now they're calling arbitration, it's crazy, insane. Like it's one of those things like you're like but wait, what Are you kidding me right now? Like it is to a Scientologist or a former Scientologist, they would recognize this as insane. Like this is a crazy thing that the US government is saying, yeah, you guys can sort this out on your own. Like it's wild Judge, juror and executioner.

Speaker 2: 50:53

It's absolutely insane and again that's why not to harp on. But it's worth talking about Because, again, this is something that Scientology has fabricated to continue to get to hide behind the legal system and unless we expose and keep talking about it, that's not going to change. It will change with exposure.

Speaker 1: 51:14

Yeah, it definitely will, and there are more and more people getting out of Scientology. In the past, let's say, it's getting more and more like there's more information out about Scientology than ever before. If you're in Scientology, it's hard not to know that. It's hard not to see that they do live in a sort of a bubble and they are trained to sort of block out anything negative about Scientology. But Scientology has no filter on their own nonsense. So those people are being subjected to nonsense by Scientology. That's driving them to go find these answers, go find out this information.

Speaker 1: 51:59

That's how they're finding out they're going hey, this is wrong, this shouldn't be happening, and then, somebody in Scientology is like hey, watch your P's and Q's there, Otherwise you're going to be not happening pretty soon, and so then, that they go, and I want to say, usually that's how someone leaves Scientology.

Speaker 1: 52:18

Scientology will do something that makes them leave. Most people aren't just like, oh, everything's wonderful, I think I'm going to leave. No, they're like my life is ruined, my family is a wreck, my finances are wrecked, I'm not happy and I'm broke, because I gave all my dough to Scientology and they're not helping me either.

Speaker 2: 52:38

So yeah, and the wealth of information now available on the internet in the public domain works to accelerate the process of deprogramming and helping people to wake up to the destructive organization they were part of. When they do get out totally yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:56

And and also those people that are leaving.

Speaker 1: 53:00

Um, you know I don't remember where it was, but I read a study somewhere they did all these different cults and they say Scientology by far outranks all of the other Scientology or do not wish to support Scientology, and they're called under the radar.

Speaker 1: 53:37

And so they play along. They don't say anything bad, but they don't give Scientology money. They don't go to Scientology organizations and support them. They don't go to the events, these conventions that they hold. They just basically do the bare bare minimum in contact with their family to not upset Scientology or pop up on their radar by saying something bad or negative. If you say something bad about Scientology and you're in Scientology you're going to pop up on the radar. So these people are, they fly under the radar and there is more and more of those people out there and some of those people do share information with other Scientologists that are also under the radar and some of those people kind of tell information that they know of to people that are on the outside, exposing them. There are more and more of those people that are out there now and, because of what we do, we hear from those people from time to time.

Speaker 1: 54:36

And sometimes those people have a plethora of information and sometimes they be batshit crazy and they may not have ever been in Scientology before. There's lots of people that write us and, like I had L Ron Hubbard's baby and David Miscavige's baby and I was on their spaceship and you're just like okay, thank you very much. I appreciate your information. So we see the whole spectrum.

Speaker 2: 55:02

But those people are out there, but most of the time the under the under the radar people who are not yet speaking out.

Speaker 1: 55:10

they will get to that point, but they're leveraged by children or family members still in scientology yeah that's huge, I mean yeah, that and that is really and that is another one of the, the methods or mechanisms that scientology uses to control those that would speak out, that rare breed of person that's like I don't care, I'm going to do this, I don't care what happens to me. They're like, but you care what happens to your family, and then that person is like ugh, and so they may really really want to tell their story. But if they have a family member, a child, that they're never going to see again for the rest of their life, or a parent that they're never, it doesn't matter A business that they work for that they're going to get fired from. So a lot of these people and that's by design, guys. That's why Scientology works the way it does.

Speaker 1: 56:08

It keeps everybody connected, and Scientology is then able to use disconnection as a lever to control those people, because they know, yeah, they're a renegade, they'll do this, but they're not going to screw over these other people, because then it's going to, it's going to ruin their life, they're going to be, they'll be miserable. So it's the. You know what's the lesser evil? Am I, do I, am I going to be a little bit miserable, or am I going to make everybody I know miserable, and so it's a lot guys, it's a lot we. I mean, yeah, when we left we had to say we're going to do our thing because we know that's right and it sucks that we won't be able to talk to these other people.

Speaker 2: 56:53

And by these other people we mean your mom, your sister, my mom, my stepdad, my sisters, my brother. Yeah, I know, but you know, but here we are, we'll keep doing the work and hopefully save innocent people from getting lured into this dangerous organization, dangerous cult, and help people get out meanwhile is I'm also helping them.

Speaker 1: 57:23

My sister and my mother were kicked out of the C organization. When I escaped and started speaking out, they were kicked out. You're welcome. They got. They had to go and be live in the real world still in the Scientology bubble, but they have jobs and they live out. They're not in the C org, they're not working 120 hours a week, they're not. They're not in the Sea Org. They're not working 120 hours a week, they're not. My sister has a family now and has kids and it's like, yeah, I did that, I did that. I know that I did that because I put her in a position where she could no longer work there and she got kicked out.

Speaker 2: 58:05

Your family, your brothers and sisters.

Speaker 1: 58:06

They're never going to be allowed to join the Sea Organization. You're welcome. We did that for you. What about the many Sea?

Speaker 2: 58:10

Org members who were allowed to leave and have kids after our lawsuit.

Speaker 1: 58:14

Yeah, so we try to look at the positive side, that there are benefits to our suffering and our sacrifice. There were benefits to that. It's also funny that whenever we hear about and I joke about this, it's horrible, but it is still amusing that it is a thing when one of our friends complains about how their mother-in-law is up in their business on a full-time basis and Claire and I look at each other like dodged a bullet on that one.

Speaker 2: 58:48

But anyway it is what it is. Sorry, mom, not sorry, sorry, not sorry. I'll forgive you when you apologize for doing hate videos.

Speaker 1: 58:56

Yeah, the hate videos aren't helping the old rekindling there, mom.

Speaker 2: 59:00

No.

Speaker 1: 59:01

And Jen Anyway.

Speaker 2: 59:03

Doesn't make up for joining this organization when I was four years old. Mother.

Speaker 1: 59:07

Yeah, anyway, I think we're good. I think we covered a good amount of stuff here today.

Speaker 1: 59:13

I hope you guys enjoyed this. We're trying, like I said up at the top of the video, we're going to try to get more of these done, at least once a week on the pod or on the tube or wherever you're listening to this week on the uh, on the pod or on the tube or wherever you're listening to this. And, um, yeah, if you uh, if you did like what we did here, don't uh, don't be afraid to uh, leave us a review if you're listening on the podcast, or rate the podcast, um. And if you're watching on YouTube, like whatever format you're watching it on, do the thing that they want you to do on that format, um, and to help us get our message out.

Speaker 1: 59:48

Yeah, it helps to support us and also it does the more interaction and the more that we see this is helping or you know people are leaving comments and stuff like that. It does help a little bit to encourage us to continue to do it, but we'll probably keep doing it until it don't need to be done, no more.

Speaker 2: 1:00:09

Amen to that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

Yep Well, thanks a lot, babe. I appreciate you joining me today.

Speaker 2: 1:00:14

Thank you for having me hon.

Speaker 1: 1:00:18

We will see you guys the next time and, yeah, until next time. Bye.

Speaker 2: 1:00:23

Bye.

Speaker 1: 1:00:25

Thanks for watching. Yeah, until next time, bye, bye. Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have hail xenu xenu is my homeboy and bfg branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here. Or you can click on this one here. Or you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.