Unmasking Scientology's Surveillance Tactics: Personal Trauma, Family Disconnection, and Suri Cruise's HQ Visit - Scientology Q&A #1 w/ Claire & Marc Headley

Imagine suspecting that you're being watched, only to find out your worst fears are true. Join us as we, Marc and Claire Headley, recount our jaw-dropping experiences of intense surveillance after leaving Scientology. From Claire's initial suspicions to the undeniable evidence that surfaced, we reveal how key organizations like RTC played a role in our lives, and share a humorous moment involving a curious neighbor discovering our past through a TV show. This episode offers a revealing look into the invasive measures Scientology takes against those who dare to leave.

Ever wondered how Scientology impacts family ties? We explore the harrowing concept of disconnection, which forces members to cut ties with their loved ones. Listen to the heartwarming story of a family who secretly read a critical book on Scientology and made a daring escape together. We also provide intriguing details about Suri Cruise's visit to Scientology's international headquarters, uncovering the truth behind the organization's attempts to present a welcoming front while avoiding grooming her as the face of Scientology.

Discover the profound changes in our relationship after leaving Scientology, from the joy of simple pleasures like sharing meals to debunking bizarre beliefs like the illness-inducing Lord Xenu. We discuss the challenges faced within Scientology's walls, including restricted access to emergency services and the culture of publicizing private confessions. Our candid recounting of spy operations, lavish facilities, and smear campaigns against dissenters offers an eye-opening glimpse into the opulence and absurdity of Scientology. Ending with lighthearted banter, we hope this episode provides both an engaging and enlightening perspective on the complex world we left behind.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to the Blown for Good podcast. My name is Mark Headley and we have gotten a lot of requests from listeners to do a Q&A series on Scientology for the podcast, so that's exactly what we've done. We've done a lot of Q&As over the past year or two and we've assembled these Q&As into podcasts and that's what you're going to hear now. So thank you very much for listening, and here is Scientology Q&A. Hey guys, welcome to the channel. Okay, so this is going to be a Q&A. I'll put the questions up on the screen and then, yeah, we'll go from there. I just put up two videos, the spy videos from when they first started watching us in Burbank.

Speaker 1: 1:09

And so the first one basically just says hey, there's this guy posting. And then the second one is when they send somebody to the house and that's the one I just posted, like in the last hour. So they said Claire's there during the day, mark got home at 830. They got a new focus. So that's kind of like right where we are in the in the spying part.

Speaker 2: 1:32

But let's start with her brand new newborn baby.

Speaker 1: 1:37

Yes, that's right, well, no, no, no, that it's this. The first document that they sent up was from February 15th.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Oh, okay, so two weeks before, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:52

So the document, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I just that's right.

Speaker 1: 1:55

The document that I just did is from the 16th, and that is basically three a few days before um, he was born anyway. Okay, let's see, let me start a bunch of these questions here and then we'll start going through them, mike, mike thanks for having me on, honey.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Yeah, no problem, claire. Somebody said Claire needs a cool background like Mark's, but you just have to move your camera so you can do it. Okay, so I've started a few questions here. Um, okay, so this is the first one. Uh, dr toe block. Uh, based on your experiences in scientology, were you expecting the spy games that they played after you blew, or were there some surprises? That's a good one. I'll let you answer that one first.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Okay, I would say both Because, as I recall it, like even when we had the guy coming to our, walking past our house every day, I kept saying this guy is just really weird. And you were like, oh no, you're just being paranoid, it's okay. And then were like, oh no, you're just being paranoid, it's okay.

Speaker 1: 3:14

And then when we saw the documents, I was like oh, get me one of those told you so laminated tickets for you, honey. Yeah so. But I think part of me didn't want to, part of me didn't want to like kind of freak you out. Um, also, I think their intentions are to get you all riled up. So if you get riled up, then they got you. So, even if you are riled up, put on a good show like you're not, so they don't think anything's going down yeah, in retrospect, I think the only power they have over you is what you grant them Exactly.

Speaker 2: 3:47

But, um, but also I would say in answer to this question, I think both of us thought that they would just let us go Like you know, yes, I was in RTC, yes, you were in gold, but still I was like we were just trying to leave and move on. Had they not done all the things they did, we probably would have done just that. We wouldn't be, here talking today.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Before we go any further. So RTC I know that's going to come up a lot that's Religious Technology Center. So that is the highest organization in all of Scientology. That controls all of Scientology. That is the organization that David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, is the head of, and Claire was basically the third down from him when she worked in Scientology. She was in RTC. Her post is actually listed on the document that we went over tonight, Was it? No? No, you were Der Internal RTC. Her post is actually listed on the document that we went over tonight, Was it no? No, you were DER internal RTC right?

Speaker 2: 4:50

No, I was internal executive.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Internal executive RTC.

Speaker 2: 4:54

Yeah, der internal is the. Yeah, that's an investigative yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:59

That's like the so that's a good point. I didn't even bring that up in the document. So the DER, is it DER internal? I think it's DER internal security DER internal security.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Yeah so that person is responsible. So you explained in the video yesterday.

Speaker 1: 5:14

Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 5:15

You explained in the video yesterday in OSA that they have. Well, maybe you didn't cover the internal security.

Speaker 1: 5:23

I didn't. I just talked about external. Well, maybe you didn't cover the internal security?

Speaker 2: 5:26

I didn't. I just talked about external External security and RTC has corresponding positions. The head honcho police person for staff.

Speaker 1: 5:51

Yeah, totally Okay. So let me put up the next question then, mark, knowing the length Scientology will go to, are you ever exasperated having to explain your situation to new acquaintances? Do people believe it when they first learn? That's a fun. That's a great question, angela, because we, we don't lead with that. We don't just come out and be like, yeah, it used to be in a cult and yeah, no, we don't lead with that. Usually, usually, how people find out, is they what they see something on.

Speaker 1: 6:29

I mean, when we were on the um leah remini show, uh, scientology in the aftermath, um, that's when people started knowing who we were and what people that we've known, um, for years had no clue because we just never talked about it. But the funniest one was when that show came out here where we live in Colorado, my neighbor knocked on my door. My neighbor from two houses away knocked on my door and was like dude, you didn't tell me you were in Scientology. He went to the same school that I, same Scientology school that I went to. His mom is a Scientologist today and and he escaped from what was called the ranch school not from the school, but from the people that ran it. He knew those people when he was a kid and one of the guys that was beating up kids.

Speaker 1: 7:27

This is all covered on a episode of the TV show Leah Remini, scientology and the Aftermath. He knew one of the guys that was featured on the on that show on basically abusing kids at the school in the middle of the desert, my next door neighbor. So that's how, like he didn't tell anybody that he was in and I didn't tell anybody that I was in, but we literally lived like two houses away from each other. So, um, so yeah, when people, usually when people find out they're kind of like what? Like, oh my God, I had no idea, and then you know it is what it is Like, like it or don't, it doesn't matter to me, I'm, I'm, I'm easy, I'm like whatever, I don't care. What do you think, claire?

Speaker 2: 8:14

I would agree with that. And yeah, the funny part about the story you mentioned of our neighbor was his wife said you didn't tell me you were in Scientology.

Speaker 1: 8:23

His wife didn't even know.

Speaker 2: 8:26

Under different circumstances, that would have been a scenario where I would immediately be suspicious of him that he was a spy. But given that his wife didn't even know and they're friends of ours, I was like, yeah, but yeah, no. And, as you mentioned, Mark, when the aftermath aired, the amount of people that came up to us and were like we have no idea and we, we, my. My response was always well, I wasn't going to lead with that. Hi, I'm clear. I was in a cult for 30 years, from birth to 30. Nice to meet you.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:59

Strong introduction.

Speaker 1: 9:01

Totally Okay. We got a lot of. We have a lot of great comments, so this is going to be good. I'm just going to. Let's just look at the next one here. Oh, I'll let you answer this one, claire, what do your kids think of Scientology and your efforts against them.

Speaker 2: 9:21

Okay, yeah, no, that's a loaded question. I will say so, snippets of history. When our second son was born, it really struck me like at some point our kids are going to know they have no grandparents except Mark's dad at the time but every other grandparent, 75% of their grandparents, are non-existent to them, and it was really loaded for me as a new mom. And so I called Dr Laura Schlesinger, the family therapist, and said hey, this is the situation. Never mentioned the word Scientology. And what do I? How do I explain to my kids that their grandparents are not in their lives? And she, she gave me the advice just always tell them the truth. So obviously, age appropriate. I think we've always just been really open that our parents have made some really shitty decisions. Our kids hear us refer to as crazy place all the time. I think they've started to now be like oh, is that when you were in crazy place?

Speaker 1: 10:27

Yeah, we never say we don't, we don't. Usually we don't say Scientology with somebody we know. We just say if they know, then we say when we were at the crazy place, so that's, that's how we, that's all how we talk about it. We just call it the crazy place and that is that's like the best definition of what it is in the world.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and it's tough. I think at some point I came to terms with the fact that our parents have made, obviously not Bernie, of course, but my parents may have, yeah, yeah, they always knew and loved grandpa Bernie, but from my parents, my parents made themselves strangers to our kids, so our kids don't know them. Um, you know, I think one time our our youngest son said, uh, where's? Uh? Well, no, our oldest son one time asked me when my mom died, said she never died, she just made really bad decisions. And you know, uh, and, and I think we've also done a good job explaining to the kids that that we were part in an abusive organization, and so we speak out because it's the right thing to do awesome.

Speaker 1: 11:44

that's a good. That's a good, that's a good one. That's a good answer. Um, okay, we have tons of great questions here. Um, here we go. Oh, here we go. Melissa Claire, did you leave because Mark did, or was there a breaking point for you? That's it, yes, that's the question right there. No, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Yes, no. Yeah, Mark was my breaking point. No, I knew I was miserable, but when Mark left I was like yeah, Uh, I kept trying to first. No, I'll be honest. So first I did try to get you back cause it scared the shit out of me that you'd blew and it pissed me off that you left me behind. Like what the heck?

Speaker 2: 12:30

yes but uh, you know, tit for tat we. But yes, mark was my breaking point and, um, actually, the day he left this will tie into your background, honey I went home and I was crying and I turned on some music because I was like, oh, just listen to some music, it'll make me feel better. And depeche mode came on. I'm like who's who? I cannot live without this crazy man of mine there you go, that's a good, there's a good.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Uh, there's a good, there's a good one. Okay, let's see. Oh, here's a good one. What reason does Scientology give to followers that they need authorization before they can leave there? They, when you're indoctrinated in it, you know that if you leave without authorization then they will make it so you can't talk to your family. So it's kind of like there's tons of people that had no family or no connections to Scientology, that were in the Sea Org and they were there and they got in somehow. That they did, but they didn't get any of their family in. And those people they're like, oh, you're not going to be able to talk to any Scientologists. They're like, yeah, that's good, that's what I want, and then they go back to their non-Scientology family. So really, if you grow up in it, there's nowhere for you to go. If you've been in it for decades, then people you work with, the people you live with your family, everyone's in it. So it's kind of like that's the thing that keeps people in it that are still in it. It's almost always because they think if they leave, that they're not going to be able to see their family.

Speaker 1: 14:15

And there's a great example we had um, this is when my I think when my book was newly out um, a family had written into me and saying you saved our family because my wife, secretly, was reading your book. And then I found it and, um, and then I read it, and then we agreed that we didn't want to be in Scientology anymore. And then the best was what they had to go see their, their teenage kids and tell the kids hey, we're thinking of not being in Scientology anymore. And the kids were like, oh my God, finally, you guys, you guys, we've been reading about Scientology on the internet and there's all these shows on it, and, and so the whole family was pretending that they were you know, they're fine with Scientology, because they didn't want to lose the rest of the family.

Speaker 1: 15:09

But they were all doing that. So it was. It was just a cool story and that is a totally a Scientology thing that you would all think one of the family is going to rat you out and then you're not going to be able to see that person. You're going to get disconnected from the rest of your family. Okay, let's do another one.

Speaker 2: 15:28

Sounds good.

Speaker 1: 15:31

Here's one. If Katie hadn't divorced Tom Cruise, would Suri have been considered a golden child and been groomed to be the face of Scientology as she grew up? No, it doesn't work like that, but she's just a kid. To be the face of Scientology as she grew up no, it doesn't work like that. But um, um, she's just a kid that doesn't make any. It doesn't matter that she was born to Tom or whatever. But, um, there is in one of my documents.

Speaker 1: 15:57

There's a whole flap that happened in Scientology, um, because of, um, of Surrey. So, um, we're going to cover that. It's coming up. It'll probably come up in a week or so, but I'll just tell you the story and then we'll get to the document. You'll see it.

Speaker 1: 16:15

But there was a lady that Tom Cruise was going to bring Surrey to the international headquarters of Scientology and there's a lady there who does, like, um, the local public relations for golden era studios, that's at the golden era productions, that's at the international headquarters. And, um, because Surrey was going to come with Tom to the base, they had to have some toys for her, like some presents for her. And so, um, religious technology center, um, the girl who does the public relations for her, like some presents for her. And so, um, religious technology center, um, the girl who does the public relations for that, um, told the this lower public relations girl hey, we need some really nice toys for Surrey as give it that we're going to give to her as gifts, like you know, birthday gifts and um, so this girl, this PR girl, her name was Hillary Lucas, she used to be Hillary Desatel and then recently she's Hillary Lucas.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Anyway, she goes to Walmart and Hemet and um, and somebody in the store who knew her, um, because she does local events there in the in Hemet and San Jacinto Somebody was like, oh, hillary, what are you doing here? And she was like getting all these baby toys in her cart. And she was like, oh, I'm getting baby toys. Like everybody knows, there's no kids at Golden Air Productions. So it was like you'll never, if I was going to be getting toys for a special baby that was coming, who do you think it would be? Be getting toys for a special baby that was coming, who do you think it would be? Like she was basically trying to say that she's at the store buying toys for Surrey Cruise without saying that, but doesn't realize you're buying some toys for Surrey at Walmart. You guys have billions of dollars and at the last second you're going to scoop up some toys from Walmart of dollars, and at the last second you're going to scoop up some toys from Walmart, anyway. So the girl that Hillary tells that to, tells her husband, her husband tells a friend and that that friend tells me.

Speaker 1: 18:17

I call the New York post and it's in the New York post, as Suri is visiting with Tom and Dave, or like the same day. The story comes out that the toys that they got for her they got from Walmart and it's a whole big thing. Anyway, there's a whole document from OSA about. How could I possibly have known that Cause I'm posting all this stuff on the internet how could I have possibly known that Suri Cruz got her toys at the base play date from Walmart? Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, sorry, that was a long road to go down for your question, terry.

Speaker 2: 18:51

But let me add one, one comment. I have one comment to add to that. Suri wouldn't have been the face of Scientology, but she would have been indoctrinated in Scientology starting at the age of six. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:05

That's a yeah, that would that's I mean that's. Another thing that comes up in these documents is about how Tom Cruz's family are getting interrogated by religious technology center on the e-meter at Tom's house. That's in these documents that we're going to go through, because there's a whole story about how I got involved with that too. So, anyway, okay, let's go to the next question. Devon, uh, Devin, Laura, um, what were some of what were some positive relationship changes that you saw after leaving? Um, how about seeing each other? There were times starting over. Yeah, there were times. Um, we just so, you guys?

Speaker 1: 19:53

know in the same bed yeah, just so you guys know, claire and I just recently celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary. So we've been married for 30 years. Um and um and when people because she doesn't look like she could be married for 30 years, so I just say I tell people I picked her up from daycare one day and I just never brought her back. But anyway, yeah, no, we've been married for 30 years. Twelve of that, how much of that was at the Thirteen? Thirteen of that was at the 13,. 13 of that was at the international headquarters of Scientology. So what were some positive relationship changes that you saw after lately? Just seeing each other? That would be a that would say the most, the biggest one.

Speaker 1: 20:38

There were times where I was in Denmark for six months, eight months, I was in Florida for a few months, claire was in Florida for a year or two and we were never at the same place and I was, I was, I was working.

Speaker 1: 20:56

There was one time, there was a period, I think, when we stayed on the at the headquarters and some people lived right next to the headquarters and some people lived about 10 or 15 minutes from the base, the headquarters, in a town called Hemet or in a town called San Jacinto, which are right next to it For a long period of time, because Claire was in Religious Technology Center. We got to live right next to the property, so you would basically leave the gate of the property and you'd walk down a little road and you'd be in your house in like 10, 15 minutes. During the time that we lived at that place, I was restricted to the property so I couldn't even go home to my own house. I had to sleep somewhere like under my desk or in a in a closet or above a hallway, which is where I slept um for, I want to say, a year or two, claire, Yep.

Speaker 1: 21:53

I could not go to sleep in my own bed for many, many, many, many, many months, um, because I was restricted to the property basically meant that they thought that I would escape if I was allowed to go to my house, which was 10 minutes down the street, right next to the property.

Speaker 2: 22:11

To be fair, they were probably right about that.

Speaker 1: 22:14

Yeah, it was a lot of indications that they were in. That wasn't too far from when I did yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:23

So, summing it up, sleeping in the the same bed at the same time, eating meals together.

Speaker 1: 22:29

Oh yeah, meals, we didn't for that. For that 13 years, we probably let's say a hundred years.

Speaker 2: 22:38

I think the first two years no how many meals do you think?

Speaker 1: 22:41

oh yeah, that's right. For the first two years we ate um at the same time together, because we were in the same uh organization if we weren't, if we weren't in the shits yeah, but but I would say, maybe a hundred meals we ate during that two years we ate together and then over the next I maybe, I think over the next 10, 11 years probably another hundred yeah, and I think that's over, that's overestimating, but maybe a hundred meals like, oh you know what, christmas thanksgiving, christmas thanksgiving and new year's those are the three meals we ate together if we were lucky if we were lucky, we had three meals for the next 10 years, so 30 times Okay.

Speaker 2: 23:24

So I was off a little bit yeah, yeah, okay, what's the next?

Speaker 1: 23:27

one. But if Mark didn't get on the internet and tell us all about Xenu, we wouldn't all have gotten sick and died. Wait a minute. Yeah, exactly. Scientologists believe that if you hear about Lord Xenu, the intergalactic overlord from 75 million years ago, that you will get pneumonia and die. So I just told you about it. You know all about it. Now, if you get pneumonia and die, you can send me an email. It's in the About page of my YouTube channel.

Speaker 2: 24:03

My favorite Mark was the time when we were in Kansas City. But then, two months out, and you're like, okay, I'm going to read it all. And then the next morning, when you weren't dead, you were like this is a bunch of bullshit.

Speaker 1: 24:18

Yeah, I read it all on the internet. And then, yeah, I read it all on the internet and I didn't even get a sniffle, much less pneumonia. I didn't even get like a little, not even a little, nothing, nothing happened.

Speaker 2: 24:30

So and I remember you asking me is that, is that really what it is? And I said yeah yeah and you were like why didn't you tell me anyway?

Speaker 1: 24:39

okay, corrupt leadership aside, does scientology practice itself of any value? Your thoughts? Ron savage seemed to feel it was, but delusioned when dave took over. Um, no, I think. Um, you know one. It's funny that you say that about ron miscavige. One of the things that ron miscavige was doing when he first got out was he was trying to oh, we need some more subs, by the way. Sorry, we need another, uh, 65, we need another 65 subs. Um, anyway, um, the um, um, ron miscavige, right, um, after he escaped from the Ant Bays, he was trying to figure out everything that he thought that he was useful in Scientology. He was trying to find out where L Ron Hubbard stole it from and he literally every little piece of thing that he thought was valuable. They had these different practices. Um, elmer and hubbard just took it from something else and just changed the, the nomenclature. He just changed the um, the way he explained it, and um, so I think, uh, rama scavage at that point was just like no, it was. Uh, dave was a good person to take over for hubbard, because hubbard was a bamboozler and so was dave. So, um, okay, let's see.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Um, did you guys seek law enforcement assistance? If so, what did law enforcement do? What it does bring west side, is that the worst thing to have done to your family? So, um, are you? I don't know if skywalker's talking about when we're there. When you're there, you can't get a hold of law enforcement. It doesn't work like that, even like on the phone system at the international headquarters. It used to be if you dialed 911, it would just go to the operator at the headquarters. It doesn't go to the police. I think they've added that, after we reported that, that you can now call 911. But I don't think this is a crime.

Speaker 1: 26:42

Think this, they still have a crime yeah, it's still a crime to do that in scientology. Um, ludwood, oh, whoops, we're gonna need a. Uh, we need a. We need a moderator. I didn't see the name there. Um, what parts of colorado, y'all? And we are in southern colorado. We are, um, like in, um, what do we call it? We're in the front range. Okay, let's see here. What's this one question?

Speaker 1: 27:13

Your time at the base, uh, at base seemed like it was so serious, but were there ever times where you guys laughed about anything, any funny stories where you could forget the seriousness for a moment? Well, yeah, almost all of those are in my book. Uh, blown for good behind the iron curtain of Scientology, which I had a copy around here somewhere. Um, the, um, yeah, the. All those stories are in the book. There's, there was here and there, there was things that were just so insane you just had to laugh because there's. You know, when something is, you reject something so much that's, your initial reaction is to just laugh. It doesn't. Your brain can't compute Like. Is this happening? How is this happening? This is not a real thing.

Speaker 2: 27:59

Yeah, I know. One thing that's not in your book is when you would radio me at three o'clock in the morning and be like, hey, you want anything from Jack in the Crack, and we were talking about how long we stayed extra because of Jack in the Box.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Yes, if we just wouldn't have had Jack in the Crack, we would have probably left years, years earlier. Let's see if there's some other good. I'm going to do some current ones because I look oh, this is a good one. Oh, that's not the one I clicked. I'm sorry. Naomi, Mark was the troublemaker and Claire was the rule follower. Yep.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Guilty as charged. But I would say my reason for that is I was born in it and my mom joined the C organization when I was four. So I was not raised by parents, I was raised by C org was not raised by parents, I was raised by seorg. So to me, my, my, mine was a next level experience. And what? Even you had honey. To be fair, I was groomed from age four to be a freaking rule following seorg.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm not, I'm not blaming him, just but yeah, that person, that person is really hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 1: 29:26

Yeah, ok, let's, I've got a whole bunch of new good ones here. Ok, jill, if Miscavige was arrested tomorrow for his crimes, is there a number two? Is he grooming a replacement for the future? No, he's not. Is he grooming a replacement for the future? No, he's not. Miscavige is going to rule until he dies.

Speaker 1: 29:49

And the crazy thing I mean obviously somebody legally could just take over the next highest person, or they could elect somebody. Of course that can happen, but Dave has been talking smack about all the main people that are running the place under him. He's been talking smack about each one of them for so many years, like decades, that they wouldn't listen to each other because they know all their nonsense. That Dave's been.

Speaker 1: 30:23

When somebody gets interrogated and they say, oh, I'm going to and you admit to something silly, usually and most of the time sexual in relation, they will. They admit these things and then Dave will tell everyone their confessions. So that's the craziest thing that happens in Scientology is when you confess things. It would be like if you went to a church and went to the confession and then the priest, immediately after you did that, went and told every person of the congregation exactly what you just told them and yet still confess things. And there's a lot of patients at least where I worked in golden era productions when whatever you confessed would get aired out to everybody that that happened in rtc as well, claire oh yeah like an example.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Keep it pg yeah, um.

Speaker 2: 31:22

Well. Well, there was the famous uh, when dave miscavige's right hand man was, you know, getting at it with an executive at flag level.

Speaker 1: 31:36

Oh, yeah, so yeah, there was one of the people in RTC that was married was hooking up with another person in Florida. I don't know if he was married.

Speaker 2: 31:50

Yeah, he was married, Okay so basically they're having an affair.

Speaker 1: 31:58

But as soon as that happened and I think was it Marty who did the briefing- yeah, yes, it was Okay.

Speaker 1: 32:08

So as soon as they found out that these two people, what they were doing, they had a briefing of the entirety of the international headquarters, let's say several hundred people, eight, 900 people, and Marty went, and Marty went up in front of all of these people like it was an assembly. But when you have an assembly at the headquarters that means something very bad is about to happen. It's never a good thing if there's an assembly, that means there's a lack of sleep in your schedule and that's working 100 hours a week. Now it's going to be 120 hour a week, 130 hour a week.

Speaker 1: 32:51

Anyway, marty Rathbun detailed out in explicit detail every single encounter they had of you know vertical, horizontal nature, for it was like probably and anything else that she did. She went to the nail salon in the middle of the day she had her hair done. I mean, she was an executive, so she had perks that other CERC members didn't have. And she was also like one of the highest executives in rtc and religious technology center right under dave miscavige and she was doing all this stuff and um, but it was I would say it was an hour to two hour briefing of everything that she'd done. Um, that was considered crazy criminal by scientology yeah, interesting am getting.

Speaker 1: 33:41

Am I getting anything wrong there?

Speaker 2: 33:44

No, not at all, but interesting side note by my recollection, that is when Jenny Linson, Jenny DeVock, Jenny Linson, who was famous from the YouTube video attacking Marty yeah. At LAX. Okay, she report, she reported that. She she saw something that was suspicious, so she reported that to Miscavige and that's when she kind of became, came into the.

Speaker 1: 34:09

Oh, she was the. She was the one who ratted.

Speaker 2: 34:13

Oh, I never knew that part. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:16

So the girl that ratted this big executive out actually ended up basically taking her spot Right. In the end, she became one of. She became one of David Miscavige's lieutenants, and she's still there to this day, as far as we know. Okay, here's one for Art and Courts. Mark and Claire, what is the one question you've never been asked in an interview but always wanted to talk about? I'll let you take that one, Claire.

Speaker 2: 34:43

Oh, thanks honey.

Speaker 1: 34:45

Yeah, go ahead, Think about it. I'm going to see. I'm going to check on the subscriber count here. So, we don't. We don't have to stay on here, we are at um.

Speaker 1: 34:56

Oh, come on guys, we need 50 more. We're at 89, 47. We need 53 more subscribers. If you're in here right now and you're not a subscriber, you're going to. You're going to shut this thing down. If it doesn't go up, we're going to. We're going to bail Art and courts. Mark, what is the one question you've never been asked I didn't want her to talk about? I think we've pretty much talked about everything. I mean, we, claire and I, have been on um. We've been on that tv show, the leah remini tv show, scientology and the aftermath.

Speaker 2: 35:29

We've been on the like I thought of something okay, we've never talked about our whirlwind wedding um about how. We left the base at eight o'clock on a thursday, drove to vegas that night. Your dad drove us to vegas that night. We got our marriage license at midnight, drove back to vegas uh, drove backA had our wedding ceremony at Celebrity Center, stayed the night there, and then you're to drive me back to post on Sunday morning, to get back on and to get back to work on Sunday morning.

Speaker 1: 36:12

So yeah, so we had a. We had a Friday wedding and a Saturday. No, yeah, we had a Friday, we had a.

Speaker 2: 36:21

Oh, no, no, no, you're right, we had a Friday night and a Saturday. No, yeah, we had a Friday. We had a. Oh no, no. No, you're right, we had a.

Speaker 1: 36:24

Friday night wedding in Vegas. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:27

We had a Friday night, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Yeah, our Friday we had a wedding in Vegas, which is basically on the court, at the courthouse in Las Vegas, because Claire was 17, 17. And I was in California.

Speaker 2: 36:41

And in California to get married at 17,. You had to see a psychologist, which, of course, being that we were CERG members, a Scientologist, b C, had no money and no time, was out of the question. So Vegas, it was Clark County, nevada. So Vegas, it was Clark.

Speaker 1: 37:01

County, nevada. Yes, and then and then we got married the next day at the celebrity center Scientology celebrity center for all of our family and everything which was like. You know 22,.

Speaker 1: 37:11

you know 20 people, I think, showed up to that and um which even that I was surprised by how many people showed up, yeah Right, and then um, um, and then we stayed the night there, which was like a huge deal because we got to stay in a hotel. Wow, I think that's actually the first time I I want to say that's the first time I stayed in a hotel, but like by myself, not like with my family or something like as a kid.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Yeah, yeah and and I know you don't remember this part mark, but we watched two movies the cradle, the hand that rocks the cradle, yeah, and handmaid's tale yeah handmaid's tale the movie yeah, anyway, like I don't remember, do I remember?

Speaker 1: 38:00

you know it? Let's go to some questions here. Sorry, I have to read without my glasses on this screen, but on that screen I need my glasses. You know, getting old is awesome. Okay, here's a good one. This is more like a comment. I guess I used to wade through Operation Clambake and other message boards I can't remember the names just to read BFG posts. It would be great if there was a compilation of them somewhere. Oh, there's a job for Claire. Operation Clambake. If anybody doesn't know, in these spy files that I just released these first two videos on there is a website called Operation Clambake and the address of it is zinunet. That's the website zinunet, and basically it is a repository for all things Scientology. So anytime there was any kind of insider news that was posted on the internet, it would end up on this Clambake site and that's how I found it and I started posting on there and that is what started this whole spy operation that Scientology did on our family for the last how many years, fam, I'm not. I'm not a scientist.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I don't know 17 years.

Speaker 1: 39:27

For the last 17 years they've been harassing me because I posted on a website called Operation Clambake and and the there's probably I probably have at least 20 more documents, maybe even 25 more documents that I have to detail out, that show all the inner workings of their spy operation, including hiring private investigators taking our garbage, spying on us 24-7, with multiple people setting up plants in our friend circles. I think at one point we had 10 friends that were working for Scientology and none of them knew that. The other others were working for Scientology and insane amounts of other stuff, and it's all detailed in these documents and how they recruit these people and how they talk to them, but the other one doesn't know about it. It is so crazy. It's going to blow your mind, guys. It's going to blow your mind.

Speaker 2: 40:26

Okay, let's do a comment, honey. Yeah, I thought of another answer to that question about what we haven't talked about. What interview question we haven't been asked? Okay, I don't think you and I have ever talked at length about what we went through in the lawsuit.

Speaker 1: 40:41

That's okay, we don't need to talk. We're not going to talk about that in a Q and a right now. That's like a. That's a whole video.

Speaker 2: 40:48

Okay, but it's a good answer to the question.

Speaker 1: 40:50

It's a great answer to the question. Just not right now, and you already answered the question with the wedding thing. So so, okay, okay, dan Musk, dan M. So what is being done at Inn and Gold Base today? Are the lavish offices and residents unoccupied? Yeah, they're just. It's like a ghost town there, and it was even a ghost town when we were there. So, david Miscavige, I think that was like a $50 million building the RTC billion.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:24

I've heard it referred to yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:26

No, no, the figure that I always had to tell Larice Dave's communicator was $39.2 million.

Speaker 1: 41:35

Okay, that was the exact amount, but that doesn't include everything that he put in it. That's just the building, okay. That's right, and it also yeah it doesn't include all those cars and motorcycles, and it doesn't include any of that 39 million. Okay, so 39 million.

Speaker 2: 41:51

And it doesn't include Bonnevue, the house that they built for Hubbard.

Speaker 1: 41:56

Yeah, that's true as well. Oh, that's a. That's a great point. I didn't even think about that. So there is a $39 million office building that, when we were there, 10 people what 10, 15 people, babe? How many people were in that building? Max, 15, or?

Speaker 2: 42:13

10 or 15.

Speaker 1: 42:14

So you're talking about a building. Well, we're going to do a drone, we're going to do a reaction video to one of those drone footages of the international headquarters of Scientology. But that I'm just trying to think it would be like going to Walmart and you and three other people are there. That's how it would be. Like it would be.

Speaker 2: 42:34

Walmart no, like the, you know the Ritz Carlton.

Speaker 1: 42:39

No, I know, but I'm just saying in terms of space, it's like a three or four story building. Right, isn't it two?

Speaker 2: 42:46

No, do you like?

Speaker 1: 42:47

one, two, it's at least three, is it two or three? It's multi. It's a multi-story office building with a huge courtyard in the middle of it, and it was a giant building. Oh, I'm thinking of bv. So, yes, so there's the building 50. That was dave Miscavige's building, and then there was a mansion built for L Ron Hubbard, and that is like. That is like having an entire hotel with no one in it and no one lives there. The only people that I think have ever stayed there is Dave Miscavige and Tom Cruise.

Speaker 2: 43:21

Actually no, chick and Gail stayed in the guest house of Barney, view Chick Corea. Okay.

Speaker 1: 43:27

So yeah, so they didn't sleep in the house.

Speaker 2: 43:30

They slept in the guest house, in the guest house, dave.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Miscavige, I'm pretty sure, has slept in the house and Tom has slept in L Ron Hubbard's house, his multi, multi-million dollar mansion that was built for a dude who died 20 years prior. Oh my goodness. Okay, I love this question, anthony. Did you see fear in Miscavige's eyes, mark, when you were about to hit him back? You know, anthony, I did, and that's why I thought I need to give this little midget a pummeling. No, I was just so mad and I was just so frustrated. I was just like let's do this. You know what? You are tiny compared to me. I'm a lot bigger than I was then as well, and I was still bigger than him. But as soon as he could see in my eyes that I was going to, I was like, okay, I'll do this. These two dudes just picked me up that were way bigger than me. They just picked me up and carried me out of the building. So I was like, yeah, the Pope of this place basically just beat me up, and I was about to beat him up and I think I was gone. I think I was gone within six months after that.

Speaker 1: 44:45

That was like the beginning of the end. It was just like this is never going to work. You and I, this isn't going to work. Okay, let's. Let's see what else we can do. Oh my gosh, look at this. That's a blast from the past. I'm going to let you answer that one, claire, because that's like a technical person in Scientology Try to not use words that people won't understand. And explain them if you have to.

Speaker 2: 45:10

Okay, universe core. So yes. So the question is here. Also, can you explain the universe core? I remember that being a big lure to go, st Hill size in the bad old days. So St Hill size was the size of an org, the organization.

Speaker 2: 45:28

When L Ron Hubbard was running St Hill, the headquarters in England in the 60s or the 70s 60s, it was big and booming and there were tons and tons of people. And so at that time I can't remember the name of the issue, mark, where it was uh, you know the birthday, the birthday game when. So L Ron Hubbard came up with the birthday game and he said when an org reaches that big and booming size, we'll bring in the universe core. And the universe core was going to be a team of staff, sea Org members who were auditors, meaning they delivered Scientology counseling and training, and supervisors, meaning they delivered training. And the Universe Corps would also deliver superpower. So they would get the staff of this big, booming org that just reached St Hill size up the bridge to OT and they would give them the superpower rundowns.

Speaker 2: 46:31

Superpower is a series of rundowns of which the cause resurgence rundown, currently delivered at flag, where a person runs around a pole for 12 hours a day until they reach cause. That's one of those rundowns and there were numerous other rundowns. But, fun fact, I joined the seer to become a superpower auditor still hasn't come out did you answer the question?

Speaker 1: 47:00

are you still going? Yes, I gave a very complete answer, honey oh, okay, good, well, that's when we do the next one.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Okay.

Speaker 1: 47:08

Let's do the next one really quick. We need 20 more subscribers. If we let Claire tell stories, we're going to be here all night. Guys Just saying.

Speaker 2: 47:19

I think by word count you far exceed me at the moment, honey.

Speaker 1: 47:23

Anyway, this is true. That's probably true. That's probably true. Um, okay, let's see here. Um, there was a really good one here and I this is it. This is so good and I was going to cover this in one of the documents Barry did.

Speaker 1: 47:39

Do you ever plant fake information in trash or anywhere just to screw with them? Okay, so I mentioned in the video that I just put out earlier today that Claire was just about to have a baby when the spy operation Scientology spy operation started, and we did have that baby. It was a boy. His name is Caelid. He's our firstborn child, a son, and there were so many diapers in that garbage that they were collecting every week so many diapers, so many diapers. And every once in a while I would put like a piece of paper or maybe like a post-it note or something, and I would scribble like a phone number on it and I just put it with one of the diapers and um, and uh, so yes, uh, fake information. Um, not so much. We had a shredder, so there wasn't a lot of stuff that they were getting. They got some. We'll see, you'll see in the documents.

Speaker 1: 48:38

Um, because when they do the trash collection, it creates a giant flap and um, and that was pretty amazing. And um, there's some other things that happen. When they find out things. They just lose their minds and uh, and that's in the documents. We're going to go through that. But, um, we just put diapers with it when they took, when they were taking that trash. I want to say so we have three boys now. I want to say that, if and when our trash has been collected, there's a lot of poo in it, because if we didn't have babies, we had dogs, and so, um, if you're, if you're collecting Scientology, you're welcome. For all of the poo memories, You're welcome. Um, so yeah, there's never been a trash bag that hasn't had some some something in it. So, um, great question, Okay, and then that's a great one to go to.

Speaker 1: 49:33

The next one is Gail Kemp. Does the spy stuff frighten you? Um, I don't think that they would do something ridiculous. They have a few times done some very ridiculous things that were unsafe when I was driving, and we will get into that.

Speaker 1: 49:53

I've got some spy versus spy, car chase, Scientology, car chase videos that are amazing and like accidents happen on video in these videos. That's how amazing they are. Accidents happen on video in these videos. That's how amazing they are. Um, anyway, um, and they do do a lot of spot. There is a lot of people. There's a lot of fake people. When we were in California, there was a ton of fake friends, Like I want to say I think we've made a list it was like up to 30, like just, we're, we're all working for Scientology didn't give a hoot about us, they just had to, because they were told they got to, this is their job, that they either worked for Scientology as a private investigator or they used to be work with us and they were still Scientologists, but they were pretending not to be like that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 50:43

So that's a bummer I would say. I would say for me the answer was initially yes, it did. The spy stuff definitely frightened me when you were writing your book. That's when I we, I insisted that we do our wills and set up our family trust and have people in place for our kids and have make sure our parents could never get their hands on our kids if anything ever happened to us. But I think the benefits of standing up to them and speaking out far outweigh any fears. You just have to take reasonable precautions.

Speaker 1: 51:21

Totally yeah, you just have to know that's always there. It's kind of a bummer. And they do have the hate sites up about us, which is just there are uh, websites that just are insane, crazy, like somebody told me um, I still I've never been to my hate site because I know it's for me to view, but every once in a while somebody will go to one of those and then they'll come and they'll be like hey, dude, you gotta, I gotta tell you this and I'd be like dude. The whole reason I don't go to it is because I don't want to be affected, I don't want to get riled up and cause I know it's all nonsense. Anyway, somebody in one of the chats the other day when we were doing a Q&A live, said that I put a spider in a guy's desk, which I did. Do I put a tarantula in my friend's desk? He was my friend and I was playing a trick on him.

Speaker 2: 52:16

Well, you did that in our bedroom too.

Speaker 1: 52:18

Whatever, whatever, let's just say that I've got a thing with spiders, like surprising people with them Tarantulas, tarantulas no doubt you named him Harry. With spiders like surprising people with them, tarantulas, no doubt, okay. So, yes, his name was Harry. It was amazing dude, anyway. Okay, so I'm admitting to the spider thing. I'm sorry, it's just, it's in my DNA anyway.

Speaker 1: 52:41

But the but the person said you put you see, you surprise people with spiders, and then you also lick the salt off crackers. And I thought that's hilarious. Of course, look how big I am, I'm not licking crackers, I'm eating the whole thing. And the person was like no, no, no, it was in your hate video. And I was like what?

Speaker 1: 53:00

And they told me that there is a video on a Scientology hate site that says I licked some crackers, the salt of some crackers, and then a girl ate the crackers and after she ate all the crackers, I said, oh, what happened to the crackers? You ate the crackers, dude. I licked all the salt off those. That is one of the things. I'm a cracker licker. It says that there's a video. Anyway, I don't know that that's even a thing, but I could see in the remote possibility that I had some crackers on my desk and I maybe didn't want to, I was full or I didn't want to eat them, but I wanted the salt and I ate the salt. And then somebody came to my desk and ate my crackers and then I would have said, hey, you shouldn't eat those. Licked those. I. You know those are my crackers. I can see that happening. I can't see me just going up to a uh, like a, like a charcuterie board and just licking all the salt off the crackers and then putting them back.

Speaker 2: 54:01

What kind of point when? When did we ever get crackers? I know that was the other question I'm like where did these ever get crackers?

Speaker 1: 54:06

I know, that was the other question. I'm like where did these crackers come from? I'm not even a big cracker person now.

Speaker 2: 54:12

If you had crackers, it's because you bought them and they were yours. How would I have?

Speaker 1: 54:17

access to random crackers. Anyway, I'm telling you guys, if you have not subscribed, you're not getting this kind of content anywhere else scientology, cracker, liquors. Okay, um, we've got. We need 20 more subscribers. Oh my goodness, there's, there's 600 people watching this right now. Go subscribe, hit, subscribe. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2: 54:45

Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1: 54:46

Hit the subscribe button. What time is it? Let's see. I took my glasses off so I could see, and now I got to go, oh yeah. Two minutes, two minutes. Okay, holy moly, I can't believe. Oh snaps, this is live. I mean, I hooked on these Scientology channels. Oh good, the comments are going so fast I couldn't even finish. Here we go. Let me get this guy Poof. Okay, demetrius, hey Demetrius. Oh snaps, this is live. Man, I'm hooked on these Scientology channels. Props to you guys for putting in the work.

Speaker 2: 55:22

Thank you, demetrius, I appreciate it. Thanks for what Thanks for watching.

Speaker 1: 55:25

Um, I want to say one other thing. I have a ton of crazy videos on my YouTube channel. So there's. I'm going to just tell you really quick before we bail. Um, I'm going to refresh this sub thing too, because I know we got two minutes left. Um, sorry, I'm just going to put the glasses on Um. Going to put the glasses on um, skoosh 9004.

Speaker 2: 55:55

Thanks guys, appreciate it. Yeah, so what's our, what's our chat going to be?

Speaker 1: 55:57

called. Since you have monday, it's just scientology live q a at 8 pm. Mst scientology spy files. That's what. It's okay. Um, I have these videos on the channel. I've got a list of all of David Miscavige's vanity sites. So David Miscavige is worried about people searching for certain things about him on the internet, so he has created thousands of websites to redirect that to a website about him that he set up, so you don't end up getting any other nonsense about David Miscavige. There is a video on there that scrolls like the end credits of a movie for about 10 minutes of every single site that he has set up and there are all the things that he's worried about that people think about him. Just know that. Go check out that video. It's crazy. There's also a list of all of the hate websites that Scientology set up about people like my wife and I. Oh my God, there's a kid back there.

Speaker 2: 56:51

I'll be right there.

Speaker 1: 56:55

And then there is a. So that's thousands and thousands of sites. And there's also sites that Scientology has set up about Shelly Miscavige and the fact that she's missing. But she's not. They're trying to convince people she's not missing by the amount of websites and domain names they've registered to redirect people to think that she's not missing. Anyway, there's lists of all these. There's a Scientology enemies list that Scientology published of all of the enemies for the last 25 years. There's a ton of great content on there.

Speaker 1: 57:28

If you're going to watch one of those scroll videos, I suggest putting it on 0.75 speed because otherwise it goes by pretty fast because it's so long. They'd be 30 minutes long if I didn't make them go fast. So you can kind of tweak it so you can read it and just read some of the David Miscavige nicknames on the David Miscavige nickname video and you will be laughing, I guarantee you. There's probably a few thousand David Miscavige nicknames and I would say at least 150 of them are laugh out loud, roll on the ground, funny. So, um, I was even thinking of doing reaction videos, getting people that were in Scientology to watch the David Miscavige nicknames video.

Speaker 1: 58:08

Anyway, we're going to wrap it up here. We'll do one more question. And then we got to let random cracker licker. We got to let. Yeah, cracker licking is a suppressive act. We know this. We know this. That's why there's a hate video about it. Let's see what else have we got? Um, oh, my goodness. Now people are um, okay, here's a good one. Yeah, we're going to do this this is it?

Speaker 1: 58:43

Um, who's taller, Miscavige or charlie manson? Um, I would say I would guess that charlie manson's is taller. But um, babe, can you, uh, can you put on, get your google foo and figure out how tall charlie manson was? We know dave miscavige is four foot 13. Um, I never say five'1", he's 4'13". That's a much better. That's much bigger than 5'1", 4'13" and he is pretty small. There is I don't even know is that a public knowledge how tall Charlie Manson was. I don't know what's happening.

Speaker 2: 59:20

I'm reading an article in the Hollywood Reporter that says he was reported as 5'2".

Speaker 1: 59:26

Oh, there you go, but he wasn't.

Speaker 2: 59:28

He wasn't, though.

Speaker 1: 59:29

I know, but Dave Miscavige is reported as 4'13" and he wears lifts, so it's kind of like, with the lifts maybe you're 5'4" 13, but without the lifts how tall are you? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 59:44

Apparently he was 5'6", so charlie manson wins that one I don't know, that's what it says. I don't know. Wow, somehow I lost you. Where'd you go? Oh, there you are.

Speaker 1: 59:55

Okay, I'm back yeah, you got, we you don't went on the google. Um, you know what I'm putting this up here? Because we're just. I don't know how we got onto Miscavige's height. You people in the comments are deplorable. Oh my goodness, height shaming is such a tiny, tiny man is not cool. Munchkins are taller than Miscavige. Oh, I thought you were talking about my Munchkins. I have three boys. Two of them are 100% taller than him and they're 14 and 16.

Speaker 2: 1:00:26

They're already taller than me and I'm five, seven.

Speaker 1: 1:00:28

Yeah, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to measure my 10 year old, my nine year old about to turn 10 year old. Right, I'm going to measure him. I think he might be taller than the scavenge. I kind of think so, my 10 year old.

Speaker 2: 1:00:45

We'll find out, we'll get back to you.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

Yes, Demetrius, I'm going to put your comment up that you're going to be the last one You're closing out the show. Demetrius Dave is that short? He's a McNugget short man. Complex, this is very possible. I mean, yeah, it might be possible. Okay, Thanks guys, I'm going to try something here. We're going to do a little out video and then, um, I will see you guys in the next one. Thank you for everyone who subscribed. If you haven't subscribed, um, subscribe, click on the bell icon, like this video. Um, I uh, two people uh, earlier today told me that the videos are starting to show up in their feed, which that's coming from you guys liking and subscribing and commenting. If you want me to talk about something or you've got other questions you want me to answer, put them in the comments and we're going to get them answered. Every once in a while I'll go through and if I see any good ones that I like, I'll pick them out. And, yeah, thank you, I'm going to try to do at least one or two videos a week. We'll see what happens.

Speaker 1: 1:01:51

The more people subscribe, the more people sign up. We're trying to get more than 80,000 subscribers, because that's how many. That's how many Scientology's YouTube channel that they've had since the beginning of YouTube. That's how many subscribers they have 80,000. It's not that much. We've already gotten like. We've already gotten 9,000 in the last 10 days. We could easily get 80,000 in the next few weeks or months. So subscribe if you haven't, and until next time, guys. Thank you very much. Thanks, babe. Thanks for joining, Thanks for having me, Thanks for watching If Thanks, babe. Thanks for joining, Thanks for having me. You new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good, Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, Kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks a lot, Until next time.