The Rant Podcast
A bi-weekly podcast focused on pulling back the curtain on the American higher education system and breaking down the people, the policies and the politics. The podcast host, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, is a known innovator and leader in higher education. The podcast will not pull any punches as it delves into tough questions about the culture, politics and policies of our higher education system.
The Rant Podcast
Federal Funding for Workforce Training with Matt Gandal
Prepare to navigate the latest currents in workforce development as I, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, team up with Matt Gandal of Education Strategy Group to dissect the monumental federal funding flow reshaping education and job training. The CHIPS Act and the Infrastructure Act are more than economic boosters; they are the architects of a skilled workforce for future jobs. We'll discuss the vital role played by states in harnessing these funds, with a spotlight on the innovative strategies unfolding in California and Texas that are forging strong career pathways, ensuring educational programs are in sync with genuine job opportunities.
The conversation shifts to Michigan's forward-thinking initiatives that are redefining adult education. Here, we'll explore game-changing programs offering free tuition and expanded assistance for adult learners, challenging the traditional image of college students and prioritizing upward economic movement. We’ll also tackle the heated debate on short-term Pell grants and how, with rigorous checks, they could significantly strengthen the workforce.
To wrap up, we'll examine how community colleges and tech industry giants are collaborating to create seamless transitions from education to employment. I share insights into Ohio’s and New York’s proactive initiatives that are setting the stage for a thriving local workforce, and we call upon communities to strategically align educational efforts with the burgeoning job market to ensure opportunities are not just generated but made accessible to everyone. Join us for a conversation that's as much about the future of education as it is about the evolving economic landscape.
https://edstrategy.org/
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant, the podcast where we pull back the curtain and break down the people, the policies and the politics of our higher education system. In this episode we talk money federal money flowing to states and communities throughout this country and how post-secondary education institutions should be thinking about putting that money to work. We're going to be talking about the CHIPS Act, the Infrastructure Act, billions and billions of dollars allocated to begin flowing to states to improve our infrastructure, to improve our semiconductor capacity, and through all that, we will need a great workforce to be able to fill those jobs. So with me today is Matt Gandahl, president and CEO of Education Strategy Group, esg. They are a consulting firm that's helping states and communities and educational institutions throughout the country think about how to make better and greater connections between education and the workforce, so they're well positioned to help policymakers and institutional leaders think about how to put this money to work.
Speaker 1:Matt has great experience in higher education, including spending time as a senior advisor to Secretary of Education Arne Duncan in the Obama administration. He and his team are leading great work across the country. So if you enjoy this episode, please hit the like button. Continue to follow us on this YouTube channel and, of course, on all of your favorite podcast platforms. So let's jump right into the interview, matt, welcome to the Rant Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here, Eloy.
Speaker 1:Well, it's great to have you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate the work that you're leading and you know, you and I have known each other for quite some time and you've worn many different hats, including working at Department of Education as a senior advisor to Arne Duncan.
Speaker 1:You've worked on all different types of issues in higher education, so I appreciate the work that you're leading over there at ESG. There's a lot going on right now, particularly as states and communities think about how to get the resources that the federal government is creating through the CHIPS Act, through the Infrastructure Act, through all this work happening at the Department of Labor, highlighting apprenticeships. So, as you do your work and I know that every mayor or governor that I run into is focused on this issue of creating good jobs and of getting the workforce to have the skills necessary, the training necessary, that people need to fill these jobs, particularly in this economy that's changing every day. So, in the work that you're leading at ESG, what are you seeing in states and communities that you're working in in terms of the kinds of practices or policies that are making a difference, in terms of making that critical connection?
Speaker 2:between skills and jobs. Well, thanks, eloy. I mean, as you know, throughout my career I've been focused on whether it was at the federal level or nonprofits or now leading a major consulting firm the intersections between our education system and what comes next for learners, and the barriers that have been erected, intentionally or unintentionally, in this country that keep so many from realizing those dreams. And you're putting your finger on exactly the issue that we're seeing everywhere right now. And you're putting your finger on exactly the issue that we're seeing everywhere right now, which is elected officials responding to the pressures to focus on the economy, to grow the economy, whether it's at the national level, certainly at the state level, with governors, and at the local level, with mayors and city councils, and a lot of action there. If you're an elected official, it's a win to bring new jobs into your community or into your state.
Speaker 2:Company to build the new plant in your community. And now we see the federal government, as you say, investing billions through the CHIPS Act, the infrastructure bill and the like in job creation. What we're seeing is an opportunity but not yet fully realized for education systems mainly higher education, arguably K-12 as well to be positioning themselves to help create a talent pipeline. We're doing a lot of work around the country that's focused on that and we see a lot of room for improvement. We'll come back to, maybe, the federal investments in a little bit, but you just look at the state and local level a lot of action right now on focusing on career readiness, focusing on career pathways. Good news A lot of policies are being passed. Legislatures are moving policies forward.
Speaker 2:At the high school level, certainly at the college level, they create more of an emphasis on preparing learners for good jobs and you know, careers that can be create family sustaining wages allow for upward mobility and we've learned a lot in our work about what it takes for education systems to position themselves to help develop that talent and create opportunity for young people, particularly for people who have been underserved in the past by our school. So it's an exciting time this is happening in red and blue states. This is really bipartisan or nonpartisan?
Speaker 1:So let's talk about a couple of states, one red and one blue. We'll talk about my home state here in California, clearly blue, and my second home, the state of Texas, the Republic of Texas. In spite of all of the rhetoric, the national rhetoric, the political rhetoric, both states are really focused on building a workforce pipeline. Here in California, governor Gavin Newsom issued a call to create a new master plan for career education, called on the three public segments of higher education to bring new focus on creating those career connections and being very intentional about that, working with employers, asking the state to increase the number of apprenticeships. And he's very high on the Singapore model, which is very much workforce focused. And then, of course, in the state of Texas, you've had a number of initiatives, including some reforms to the funding for community colleges, so that outcomes are front and center, particularly career outcomes. So, as you're navigating both the national rhetoric and the work that's happening on the ground, what do you see as promising in some of those state policies?
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely some promising state policies and some really great action at the local level. Not everywhere, but it's getting there.
Speaker 2:So California certainly I know has invested a lot in pathways and in career readiness and I know a lot of efforts over the last couple of years in investing in higher education and positioning higher education to be good partners on the economic development, economic mobility side. Even regional investments, I understand that have been made across the regions in California and that's really important. We're seeing in a variety of states a lot of work on redesigning high school. So high school is about now, I think, in the places that are innovating about college and career and there's a legitimate effort to build career pathways with the knowledge that it generally has to go to and through higher education that a high school diploma is not sufficient to get well-paying jobs in America.
Speaker 2:So most of the career work we're seeing going on in high schools involves transitions into post-secondary and then ultimately into careers, and a lot of the best work is really anchored in understanding the labor market needs in states and in regions and which credentials are needed to get the best jobs. So probably a fair amount of work in the high school space. And then, you know, on the college side and the higher ed side we're also seeing some activity. So you mentioned Texas, probably one of the more ambitious states right now. That's redesigning their higher education system to be more tied to the economic goals of the state and the regions across the state. And primarily by, as you know, when they passed HB8 there last year, house Bill 8, they redesigned the way that community colleges would be funded to be outcomes-based funding with a particular look at the economic needs of the state and the regions in the state. And at least the state portion of the funding, the majority of it, would be based on the number of students who earn credentials of value rather than the number of learners who are enrolled. So shifting to outcomes from enrollment based with an eye toward credentials of value.
Speaker 2:I think we're seeing with an eye toward credentials of value.
Speaker 2:I think we're seeing this idea of defining credentials of value getting a lot of traction in states across the US.
Speaker 2:It opens up a lot of interesting conversations about what do you mean by value, how do you tie it to earnings potential, how do you measure that? How do you make sure you're able to measure non-degree credentials and short-term credentials in the mix, all of which will be really, really important if short-term Pell passes and we start to open up federal funding for shorter-term credentials. So Texas is a state to watch in terms of looking at the funding model and really emphasizing credentials of value and, interestingly, their colleges, particularly the community college systems and institutions, were very much behind this legislation. So very interesting to watch that. Another state I'll mention on the blue side is Michigan, a state where the economy has really been transformed, where the auto industry is going through transformation, where they recognized that they set a goal for the percentage of adults they wanted, or young people and adults. They wanted to have a post-secondary credential in Michigan. The governor did and they realized pretty quickly that the only way they were going to get there was to focus much more on adults not just traditional age students.
Speaker 2:So Michigan has, we think, been an exemplar in having a state strategy around adult learners in higher education tied to their economic goals. During the pandemic, they used federal relief funds to launch something called Futures for Frontliners, which was essentially a free community college for adults who went into pathways in essential industries.
Speaker 2:And they ended it via something called Michigan Reconnect, which is, like a number of other states have done, free, you know, tuition for community college for Michiganders over the age of 25. Then they lowered the age down to 21. And then, interestingly, last session, a year ago, they put some money aside for grants for actual colleges to up their game on how they serve adult learners. Colleges can better work with learners above the traditional age, since we know there's a lot of different approaches we need to adopt to effectively serve those learners. And those learners are becoming a bigger and bigger proportion of college population and certainly the population that colleges can and should attract into their institutions.
Speaker 1:It always piques my interest when people talk about what is a traditional student today, because, based on data, I see it's over 60% of the learners in higher ed right now are over the age of 24. So those are becoming, and have become, the traditional student. The non-traditional student is a student who can afford to go into a four-year residential college experience, and so I think you're right on that. Colleges, universities need to look at these learners that are working, that have not been able to go full-time or have not been able to find the right post-secondary experience. I think those colleges and universities that can master that, that can offer something to this population of learners, will benefit in the long run, and the economic outcome is a big piece of what they're looking for. They want economic mobility on the other side of that learning.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned something that's in the news quite a bit today, short-term pal, and I can't help but ask you a couple of questions, given your experience in DC, given your ear to the ground there.
Speaker 1:There is this conversation happening around credentials of value, lots of different opinions on what is a credential of value and whether or not there are credentials that actually create value enough so that the federal government should invest in them. There is a bipartisan effort right now which is incredible to say that Representative Virginia Fox and Representative Bobby Scott are joined arm in arm in this push for short-term Pell but there's a lot of pushback from different corners, whether it's those consumer advocates which are all my friends but who really feel extremely concerned that these short-term credentials don't create the kind of value that we want to see happen, all the way to the wealthier institutions in this nation, who feel concerned about how Congress is planning to pay for this short-term Pell program. What do you see happening, and do you see short-term Pell as something that should and could benefit states who are pushing on these efforts to get more and more of their workforce, more and more of their adult learners, to gain access to skills that they need to participate in the economy?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do. I mean, despite the complexities of how you get it right, it's where we need to go, with the right protections put in place, and I say that because this is what learners want. We're increasingly seeing that, you know, not only adults but even younger people in high school are more and more attracted to the idea of shorter term credentials, stacking those credentials over time, understanding the value proposition when they go and pay for any higher education, what it's going to translate into over what period of time. And I understand we don't want to minimize everything down to that payoff question all the time. Frankly, that's where the American public is Questions. They're asking about higher ed more broadly and I think we need to be responsive to them.
Speaker 2:And I was really amazed to see some poll data recently to show that the younger generation is thinking this way as well, about how much quickly can I earn a credential of value, and not always thinking of it in a four-year span or even a two-year span. And so that's where the energy is coming from, the consumer side. And I think if we can figure out a way to position these federal funds to enable the least advantage of our learners to get access to these credentials and make sure they're quality credentials. I think we'll be doing everyone a service Now to make sure they're quality, as you know, Congress has been grappling with. There has to be, you know, there have to be safeguards put in place, there has to be a bar and metrics put in place.
Speaker 2:But this is exactly what states are wrestling with right now. So some of the states are ahead of the curve and already working to figure this out.
Speaker 2:I think if this bipartisan agreement can kind of stick to a quality bar looks at real return on the investment of these credentials and make sure that we're allowing these funds to go that direction and not to credentials that are continuing to be dead ends and that aren't having the payoff or aren't stackable. I think it will be a positive Now how they pay for it and the whole recent set of proposals on that. I'm staying out of that one and set a proposal on that. I'm staying out of that one. We're best positioned is to help folks figure out how to get it right in terms of the quality issues and how to respond to the consumer demands in this country that are growing around this.
Speaker 1:Let's pivot back to money.
Speaker 1:There is a lot of money that the federal government is putting into motion to help the country, in the case of the CHIPS Act, help the country develop or redevelop the muscle it had to be able to increase its semiconductor capacity to be able to fund and manufacture its own semiconductors, which during the pandemic we all saw was a big issue.
Speaker 1:We had waiting lists for cars, for washing machines, for all sorts of household items that we didn't realize, a lot of people didn't realize were delayed because of the limited access to semiconductors, because they all were being manufactured in one part of the world. So we wanted to bring it back on shore and there's a tremendous amount of investment happening In order to create that semiconductor capacity. We know, particularly those of us, you and I, who've worked in higher ed a long time it really depends on getting those resources to the post-secondary education providers that actually reach the kind of workers that we're going to need for this workforce, actually reach the kind of workers that we're going to need for this workforce. In your experience, have you picked up on anything that policymakers or employers or education and training providers should be thinking about in order to access those resources but also to put those resources to work in states and communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the really important question, because there are a lot of money that is about to start flowing, not just out of the chips and science. That's, I think, $280 billion. We also have bipartisan infrastructure law, which is $1.2 trillion over five years, and then we have the Inflation Reduction Act, which is another $370 billion. That's a lot of dollars.
Speaker 2:A lot of dollars Right, and we're going to be hearing a lot more about that in the months ahead. What I don't think we're going to hear as much about and we need to is what's happening on the ground when these dollars, as you say, reach their destination. Now, it's important to note that all these dollars are going straight into industry, create the jobs. So, while we would have liked to have seen some of those dollars flowing into education and into higher education, to, you know, build the training programs and kind of improve the pathways in the pipeline, that's not where the money's flowing. So you asked this question and my answer is it really depends on the state and local actors to ensure that when this money arrives in these industry sectors across you know, like you said, the CHIPS Act going to semiconductor industry. You've got a lot of money in the transportation industry that's going to be flowing.
Speaker 2:You've got a lot of money in the energy industry and that's coming out of the Department of Energy, transportation is coming out of the Department of Transportation, chips Act is coming out of the Department of Commerce.
Speaker 2:So you have multiple agencies in the federal government sending millions, billions of dollars out straight to industry. What we're hearing is, in some cases, higher ed is at the table and prepared. In other cases they're not. And what we're encouraging whether it's at a local level or at a state level where governors can actually set the table is that, frankly, higher education needs to be at the table everywhere. Higher education needs to be positioned to be partners in producing the talent, because what I what what we're concerned about is there are two scenarios that could play out here. You know, one is the way we want it, which is the money flows, the industry, the jobs are created, the plants are built, jobs are created and the planning had been done higher education partners and other training partners. So by the time the jobs open up, there are enough people coming out of those local communities who can build those jobs.
Speaker 2:That's scenario A and that's what we want to see. I'm concerned we could see scenario B, which is all the emphasis is put on creating the jobs, building the plants, getting everything ready, not enough emphasis on the local or regional talent supply and by the time those jobs open up, there aren't enough people to fill them and those companies are going to have to look elsewhere, either somewhere else in the US or, frankly, outside the US, to fill those jobs. You could just see how that narrative would be spun out. And I think the places where the higher education partners are there, are planning forward with the employers, understand the employer needs, are partnering to develop, expand the programs, redirect resources to build programs that don't exist or scale them, are going to be in the best position. But that's not the way things are being teed up, if it's not intentionally driven that way by other leaders at the state and local level right now.
Speaker 1:So when you're talking to state and local leaders, your primary advice is begin to set that table now between the supply side and the demand side, making sure that the education providers are at the table, thinking about how they're going to train individuals to fill those jobs, and for the employers to be there to start talking about the kind of workforce that they're going to need.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Set that table. Make sure the employers understand the importance of having education partners at that table now and not waiting a few years to when the jobs are then available. And we know I mean higher education generally isn't the most nimble institution and this creates frustration often with employers who want fast, you know, talent and it's just not possible in most higher education settings to turn on a dime. So have some lead time to work with institutions to provide talent at scale. That's the message that we all need to be sending. That's the message governors need to be sending, mayors need to be sending. We need, you know, we need that table to be set right now.
Speaker 2:The money is question when the money is flowing. I mean some of it has started flowing A bunch of chips, act money we expect to flow in the next two months around the country and then some of these other dollars are going to flow. I think a lot of them will start flowing in the mid to later part of this year. So how do we get ahead of that curve? There are some places that have already got that table set and they've got the partnerships, like a couple examples we've seen in Ohio, in Columbus Ohio, you've got Columbus State Community College as you know they're, you know, one of the one of the leading community colleges in the country that thinks about these issues have already been partnering Intel and their four-year partners there to build a talent partnership.
Speaker 2:In New York State, we see Micron Technologies working with the SUNY system to a higher education talent pipeline and the state is putting money on the table for that as well, all to kind of be prepared to leverage these federal funds resources. So, and we see, you know, outside of the federal dollars, we also see a movement in some states to try to start combining their agency efforts. A lot of this born out of our silos that we, frankly, we have the silos at the federal level. These departments I mentioned earlier energy, transportation, labor, commerce they're separate entities, entities they're separate from the department of education there are collaborating, but probably not enough to ensure that all these things occur. You know that I just described in terms of talent and the supply and the demand side.
Speaker 2:Some states are setting their own tables. So indiana, the governor, has a workforce table that he has set where the education, labor, commerce, higher ed and K-12 are all there working regularly together to try to create this balance of supply and demand. Missouri combined their higher ed and workforce agencies. There are a few other states that are considering making moves like that. Michigan combined their workforce and education agencies over the last couple of years. So I think I see a lot of political leaders trying to figure out how to create this table at the state level. I think the same thing needs to be done at the local level as well.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 1:Particularly in big states like California, our economies are regional in nature, so those regions should be getting together now.
Speaker 1:And if I have anything to say to anybody listening, particularly if you're in a community college, in a four-year regional university that conversation needs to start happening now with your employer partners, industry partners, with your local electeds, with state officials.
Speaker 1:How are we going to align our efforts to make sure that we have the opportunity to put those dollars into motion and that they serve workers who need access to those kinds of careers, those kinds of jobs? So this is a great opportunity, as you mentioned, matt, great opportunity for communities not just to build their economy, but to build their economies in a more equitable way and to really try to solve for some of the challenges that we know have been going on since the pandemic A lot of disenfranchised workers, a lot of people who are underemployed. These are great paying jobs and hopefully we can. We can see, uh, these efforts begin to rise in communities and you know, with people like you helping, hopefully we can make that happen definitely really important and a win-win for the learners and communities, but also for higher education, at a time when, as I mentioned earlier, there are people questioning the value proposition there.
Speaker 2:what a great way to prove the value of higher education and no greater way than to say it's setting our learners up for success in the economy and it's helping to grow our economy in our local regions. That's kind of exactly where we need to be, so we're going to keep leaning in on that.
Speaker 1:Great. So let me ask you one more question as we begin to wrap up. We've talked a lot about what's going on throughout the country and in different states. Let's talk about your work, let's talk about ESG before we wrap up. So tell us a little bit about ESG, and what kind of work are you getting engaged in in different states?
Speaker 2:We are lucky enough to do work all across the country on this. I founded Education Strategy Group about 11 years ago at this point, as you mentioned, having come out of the federal government in the Obama administration and seeing the needs in the field, and all of our work has been focused on the intersections between education and what comes next. So we've been working in over 30 states in one form or another on helping to scale quality pathways from education to careers. Some of that begins as early as high school. A lot of it is focused on colleges and higher education. We help shape policies at the state level that create the enabling conditions to better scale these kinds of programs and support institutions that are serious about growing their pathways. We're working at the local level in a number of places around the country to help grow these programs. In almost all of our work we're bringing employers together with education institutional leaders to try to build these partnerships. So we put big emphasis on setting these tables that we were talking about earlier, creating these partnerships, understanding that there needs to be kind of a translation that goes on between industry and employers and education systems so each can understand each other's needs and you can kind of bridge that gap.
Speaker 2:We have a fair amount of work, frankly, in helping support intermediary organizations that are sitting at the intersection of education institutions and employers and industry In higher education.
Speaker 2:In particular, we've done a lot of work with community colleges to help them grow their pathways in specific sectors.
Speaker 2:A lot of work even in helping to look at how you support learners of color and low-income learners in community colleges, how you look at workforce programs that have traditionally been separate from credit-bearing programs in community colleges, how you look at workforce programs that are traditionally been separate from credit bearing programs in community colleges and start to break down the barriers between the two so there's greater stackability and greater efficiencies built in colleges. And then we're doing a fair amount of work looking at the larger questions of how you measure the success of higher education, working in a few states and a few national partners on how do we measure the return on investment in higher education. And there's a lot of energy and appetite right now, as you know, to move from just looking at attainment to looking at attainment and return on that investment on connection with career outcomes. So I think that's a space that will continue to grow in the future and we're really happy to be right at the center of helping folks figure that out.
Speaker 1:Well, it sounds like you're in the right place at the right time, whether intentional or by accident. I mean, this is definitely a time where every community, every state, every family, every learner is thinking about how to increase their return on their investment in post-secondary education and how that links to a good paying job, a chance for a career, a chance to pay for the increasing cost of living in states like California, Texas, Florida, New York and others. So really appreciate the work that you're leading, Matt, and I also really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to be here on the rant. So again, thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2:Pleasure. Eli, Thanks so much for having me Keep up the great work.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, you've been listening to my conversation with Matt Gandolf. Keep up the great work, continue to follow us on this YouTube channel and, of course, continue to follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for joining us, everybody, and we'll see you again soon.
