Unraveling Purity Culture & Reclaiming Pleasure Ft. Melanie Grundvig | Ep 42

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Melanie Grundvig is a relationship and individual therapist that specializes in mixed-faith couples, religious trauma, and faith crises.
She practices virtually and in person in Boulder, Colorado and is currently accepting new clients!
grundvigtherapy@gmail.com

Podcast mentioned: Girlscamp
Book mentioned: Come as you are

SLIDE INTO MY DMS: www.instagram.com/christinaabood

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xx Christina

Transcript

Welcome back everyone to becoming the one I am so excited because I have Melanie here with me. Melanie, say hi. Hi. Melanie is also a relationship therapist and I'm really excited for her to come on today because she's talking about something that we've never talked about in the show before that I've never even touched on.

And we're going to be talking about like purity culture and how that impacts women and their sexuality and their body. And Melanie has such an interesting and cool story. So I'm going to throw it over to you, Melanie, to share a little bit about your story. And then we're going to jump into like how this impacts women.

Okay. Well, thank you, Christina. So like you said, I'm a relationship therapist. And apart from that piece of my identity, I was raised within a strict purity culture, super religious growing up. I was actually born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, also known as the Mormon Church. And that's where I spent all of my, well, not all, but most of my developmental years.

And then in the last five or so years of adulthood, I've really been deconstructing, questioning, and challenging the faith that I grew up in but that's a huge piece of where I come from and informed a lot of my development at pretty critical stages. So of course, sexuality is part of that. And so I'm really going to speak to that experience of someone that was raised in a strict purity culture and what that did to my sexual development.

And maybe we can touch a little at the end on. how you may be able to overcome that situation if you find yourself resonating with some of the parts of my story.  Yeah, you have such, this is such a cool story, like, I don't know, I meet so many therapists and I've never met anyone who has this background, and that was like, really passionate, and one thing I know about you, so, Mellie and I know each other through work, so we're colleagues, and it's something that you're still deconstructing, right?

This is like, pretty new for you.  It definitely is. Like I said, it's been a critical part of so many stages of my identity. And it's really hard to overstate how impactful that is. I think that anyone who leaves or just changes their belief After having come from a system that's really rigid and structured and it tells you everything, it's really, it just takes years, I think, to deconstruct and question and sift through, what do I keep?

What do I want to leave? Who am I? There's so much that comes packaged with that experience. Yeah, and I've met some other people who've actually been in that space where they're either come from a Mormon background or other like religions. And. It does take time. They're like, I'm just figuring out who I am.

Yeah. And like what I believe and what I want for my life because they've always been told what their life should look like and what they should do. Yeah, definitely.  So let's dive in. What is purity culture? So I would describe purity culture as any cultural ideology that raises you and puts a strong moral value on sexual purity, which typically means abstinence from sex and can also really be attached to ideas of modesty, how you dress, how you present yourself.

All of that is tied into purity culture also.  Do you think that's  There's any flexibility in that, like purity culture, or do you feel like it's pretty rigid?  It may depend on which system that you're in. I would say that when you're in a religious system, there's typically very little flexibility.

Because it's oftentimes super attached to overarching ideas of this is what makes me a good person, this is what makes me a worthy person. And if you're bringing self worth into the equation, that's really gonna rigidify all of those belief systems around you.  Totally. It's like your self worth is tied to, like, how pure and how, like, good, you know, with quotation marks around it, like, good you are with following the rules of that religion.

Yeah.  So what does that look like? Or even, like, what does that look like for you?  Yeah, I mean, growing up, I would say some of the beliefs that were a big part of my purity culture, certainly abstinence. I was always taught that you should never, ever, ever have sex before marriage. And a big piece of this too in Mormon doctrine, you're actually taught that it's the sin It's the most, it's the worst sin next to murder.

Like, you are literally taught that the worst thing you could do is murder someone, but the second worst thing you could do is have sex before you're married. Like, that is how serious it is. I feel like that just really emphasizes how rigid my particular purity culture was growing up, and how damaging that narrative can be, that like, if you have sex, like, you're second only to a murderer in terms of terrible people. 

Wow. That must have felt so awful to, to have that. Yeah, I mean, I'm laughing about it now because there's definitely absurdity to it looking back. But in the moment, I mean, I unquestioningly  believed that. And there were moments where that really affected my sense of worth. Absolutely. And scared me, honestly too.

Yeah, I imagine so that you're like, I'm going to be as bad as a murderer if I have sex, where I like know that sex, especially for men and women you know, when we're in our teens and early 20s, like that's, that's the height of our sexual drive, right? We're like, we're just coming into like all those hormones and we're just learning in relationships and to have that pressure of like, If you do this at all, like, you're a bad person.

You're not worthy anymore. Mm hmm. I definitely did growing up. Like, I can remember as a teenager strongly feeling that way. And where I am now as a person, I don't feel that depth anymore. Fortunately, but I definitely remember feeling like that when I was younger, especially when I was a teenager, like you're saying, and you're in there, you're in that age where it's super natural to be sexually curious.

I do remember feeling really scared about it at that time in my life. . Yeah. It's like you're fighting this natural urge that you have as a person, because like you said, yeah, it's like all, it's all the hormones. It's like being naturally curious Right. About certain things and like even probably being scared to even think about it.

Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Mm-Hmm.  . So, let's talk about modesty. Mm-Hmm. . What does that look like? Mean? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So modesty, like I said earlier, it's really attached to ideas of purity. And I kind of wanna.  Take a second to think of how I can easily describe why they're so attached. I guess I could highlight like a couple of beliefs that maybe  reiterate this point, but for example I remember being taught as a young girl that we were responsible for the thoughts of the men around us, right?

And in the Mormon faith, modesty is maybe taken to a level that isn't common for a lot of other groups. Christian faiths. For example, Mormons are taught to like wear sleeves that cover your shoulders, like even if you're wearing a tank top, that's perceived as immodest. You're also taught to wear like shorts and pants that go down to your knees, at least.

And if you're even wearing something mid thigh, that's perceived as immodest, which is pretty normal for like even a lot of other purity cultures, but for the Mormon purity culture, it's not. So I remember Sunday school classes where they would literally tell us. Like, if you're wearing something above your knees, suddenly the males around you can visualize you naked.

Like, that's the line that's drawn. So you're taught that you're responsible for other people's thoughts, and how you dress is associated with that. Like, if I dress modestly, not only am I keeping myself pure, but I am helping everyone around me stay pure too. And if I'm not dressed modestly, then suddenly I'm responsible for other people's impure thoughts.

I'm representing myself as a less pure person.  How do you feel or like, what do you think about that now? Like what are your views on that?  I mean, it's really disturbing to think about. Honestly, it's so disturbing to think about an ideology where you're taught that you're responsible for men's thoughts.

I think it makes you scared of men, honestly. Like, how could you not be scared of men? Being told that if you're wearing a short  That goes higher than your knee, they can suddenly picture you naked, right? Like, that applies to every old man in your church group, every young boy your same age. It applies to everyone.

That's really disturbing to have that thought hanging around your head, or that worry hanging around your head. These old men can now picture me naked. And not even that they can, but that they, like, are, you know? It's kind of phrased that way. Like, if you dress inappropriately, they will think this. That's why you have to dress modestly. 

It's almost like the female body is like dangerous or like off limits or there's something  like very, I don't know if like the word wrong is, is the right word for it, but like something wrong almost with the female body. Yeah, absolutely. It's certainly attached to that idea that there's something inherently bad or dangerous about a woman's body.

And there is! Like, something that I was thinking about in preparation for our chat today is how men and women were really treated differently in my church youth groups growing up. And some examples of this are, in the Mormon church, it's really common to do, like, youth activities. Where maybe the girls will do something called girls camp and the boys will do something called boys camp.

And then sometimes you'll do stuff together mixed gender. But you're always given out, like, a packing list. And on the girls packing list, there are always, always, always rules about modesty. Like, make sure you're bringing a one piece bathing suit. Make sure you're bringing shorts that go down to your knees.

Make sure you're not bringing tank tops. The boys never have it. anything, ever, about modesty stipulated in their packing list, ever. They're never told, like, you need to bring a t shirt to wear with your swim shorts, or like, you need to be wearing long shorts. It's always geared towards women, always. So of course you're going to think that a woman's body is dangerous because the men aren't being told that about themselves.

You are. Wow. It must have felt, and I imagine for anyone listening who has experienced this, like, the, how you would feel in your body would just feel, like, almost unsafe. Like, to be in your own body as a woman in that kind of culture. That's such, such a good point, that it just feels unsafe to be in your own body.

I honestly think, for me, the biggest thing that's come up as I've kind of stepped deconstruct these beliefs that I got from an early age is a sense of disconnection from my body. That's kind of what I have felt in my own life, is that your body's unsafe, so you just kind of disconnect from it. Like, you don't think about it, you don't touch yourself, you don't look at yourself.

It's just this vessel that you're in, that you aren't actually connected to, or like rooted in, or grounded in.  And how do you feel now? With that, what was that experience for you?  Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great question.  I feel like a lot of what I've been doing the past couple years has been intentional work around connecting to my body, feeling closer to it, loving it, being gentle with it, noticing it, learning about it.

All of those things have helped me connect to my body and to myself, and honestly makes me really sad to think of the years that I went feeling disconnected from the self. I think that's really damaging to be disconnected from the self. Yeah. I love that you're doing that. Yeah, that's so true. Like, especially if you're stepping away from this kind of culture, like really connecting back with who you are, which a huge part of who you are is your body.

I mean, you, you literally live in it, so Yeah. Like it's, it's a part of you. Yeah. Gosh. And  tell me more about how you feel like in general, like this. impacts sexuality and people's body on like a deeper level.  Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah, on the deeper level, I think the disconnection from your body is big.

I think with sexuality, there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of problems with how you're able to experience and how you experience sexuality when you start getting older and that phase of your life naturally opens up. Like, I know for many Mormons who follow the purity culture, they refrain from having sex before marriage.

They get married. You're not able to just like switch, flip some magic switch all of a sudden. Where like before marriage, you were pure and you weren't interested in sex and you're disconnected from your body. And then suddenly after, you're really good at sex and you're interested in it and like, it feels great and you're open to it.

That's not what happens. People like, wait, it's their wedding night? And then it's like, oh. Actually, I still feel uncomfortable with sex, which of course you would! Like, of course you would feel uncomfortable with sex after everything you've been told. It's not something that just goes away. So I think it certainly impacts a lot of marriages.

I think it certainly impacts, as soon as you start exploring sexuality, suddenly it hits.  All of those tips you were given.  Tell me more about that, like, how it hits.  Yeah, I mean, you have sex for the first time, and maybe the whole time you're feeling dirty. You know, maybe the whole time you're feeling like this feels weird and this feels wrong, and  am I bad for enjoying this?

Should I enjoy it or not? Like, how should I focus? How can I do this? It just brings up a lot of questions. I think I've heard a lot of women reflect that it's hard for them to experience any pleasure in sex. So that's another piece that I've heard from other people's experiences.   Yeah.  I mean,  general thoughts, but yeah.

How did you overcome that piece specifically? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about my own experience and I would say  there's a couple of nuances like in my sexual journey. So I actually did have sex before I was married in high school. That was the first time I had sex. So I broke the rules, in other words.

And I remember feeling really, really, really, really bad about it. Like, horrible, honestly. And scary. Like I said, I honestly thought like, Oh my gosh, is my soul damned forever? Like, am I as bad as a murderer?  Which is bringing up some tears because that was painful. Like, at 18 years old, I was worried that, like, I was as bad as a murderer for having sex with this boy, you know?

And so I went through, like, the church thing where I, like, confessed to my bishop, which, honestly, that's a whole nother conversation. Some clergy people can be, like, really loving and others can be really harsh. I think, fortunately, I was in a situation where my clergy person was very loving. I don't think he made me feel like I was an evil, awful person.

He was kind of like, okay, well, like, you're forgiven, like, Jesus loves you. So then I felt fine after I got that absolution or being told that Jesus loved me anyways. I felt better. But then going into marriage, like, I'd kind of put that side of me on the back burner. And then I think I was always a little worried that I would do it again.

Like whenever I was in a relationship with a boy, I was always like, Oh no, like I don't want to sin twice. Like, I don't want to make the same mistake again. So I was really, really wary. So it was something that I was much more like sensitive around and that other section of my life. And so then eventually I did get married and I would say before I even got married to my husband now.

He was already kind of a very nuanced Mormon and kind of questioning the truth of the church. He's like, I don't know if I believe this or not. Which kind of led me to question some things in my own ways too. And we would have conversations about sex and be like, honestly, like how much of this makes sense?

Like how much of this makes sense? The church is telling you you can't have sex before you're married. What does it even mean? The rules are kind of vague, it's like no sexual relations before you're married. What are sexual relations? Like, does that mean penetrative sex? Does that mean like  oral sex? Does that mean  just like kind of touching?

Like, what does that even mean? So we kind of just defined it for ourselves where we were like, okay, well. Like, we'll just say that penetrative sex is off the table, but sexual relations, that's how we're defining it, and we're able to explore other stuff. So we actually explored a lot before we got married.

So when we did get married, there wasn't a strong fear, for me at least, around the sex, because we'd kind of been working up to it. So I think that helped. I could imagine it'd be a lot scarier if you'd never even like made out with someone and then suddenly got married and then suddenly you're like, okay, we're having sex now.

So in that sense, that was a little bit easier for me and my journey. But I think even after we were married, the biggest sticking point for me is I felt guilty around my own pleasure. Like I didn't feel guilty about having sex, but I would feel guilty if I Had an orgasm or if I felt pleasured or if I wanted to be sexually pleasured because it just felt  I don't know.

It just felt like is that dirty to want this is that dirty to like this and maybe that had to do with my trauma when I was 18. And I think it also has to do with. the trauma in general of a purity culture kind of focusing on women not being super sexual beings, so it's like weird or wrong if you as a women, woman like it or interested in it.

So those are some of the pieces that kind of came up for me. And I would say the one that I had to work through after getting married was accepting my own sexual pleasure, that it wasn't bad or dirty or gross as a woman to like sex or to like being pleasured.  It reminds me of what you were saying before about how, like, women's bodies are we were saying, like, they're dangerous, how, like, you would be responsible for men's thoughts, right?

And it's almost like, I don't know, for me, Maybe this is, you can tell me if this sounds right, but like, it's almost like you're only there  for men. And like, you know, like their own pleasure. It almost feels like that's like a, a sub title to, not sad, but like, it's there, that you're only there for men's pleasure and to please them.

And maybe that ties,  yeah, like maybe that ties into this feeling of guilt and uncomfortableness around wanting your own pleasure. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's very tied to this idea of, yeah, being an object for someone else's pleasure. I think it's also tied to this idea, as I always felt as a woman growing up in purity culture, that it was my job to be like the keeper of purity, right?

Because you're taught Well, men just want to have sex. Like those are the ones who are going to picture you naked if you're wearing shorts. Like, so you as the woman, it's your job to kind of caretake them. Like you have to dress modestly so they don't have impure thoughts because they're the ones driven by sex.

If you're making out with a boy, it's kind of your job as the woman to make sure things don't go too far. That's how I felt. That's what I internalized. I don't know if that was ever explicitly said, but that is certainly what I believed. So I would say kind of like I hinted at, I went through a period where I was really worried that I would mess up again quote unquote or like have sex again So I always felt like the keeper or the guarder of virtue like I had to be the one wary and watchful during intimacy to make sure we didn't go too far So I think that was another piece of why it was hard for me to enjoy pleasure for a little while because it's hard to get out of that mental mode of being like We're in this intimate moment, but I'm in my head thinking like, how can I guard us?

How can I make sure we don't go too far? I'm never sitting in it and enjoying it. I'm always like watching and worrying. So that was another piece that made it difficult to enjoy pleasures. I was used to the watching and worrying mindset during intimacy.  Totally. And I think that actually resonates with me and probably a lot of women listening about like, that That is sort of a message.

I would say there is like this undertone of that message as we are growing up just in general in culture. Because  it's almost like, yeah, like we're told like men are just sexual creatures. Like women don't really like to have sex, which is total bullshit. And that's how it's like framed to us. And I do remember myself also when I was younger, feeling like I was responsible for setting boundaries.

Wow. Right? Like, not maybe to that extreme, but like, I was the one who had to be like, No, no, no, I don't want to have sex. Right. Versus like the man, like they're always going to want to chase me. They always want me. They always want like this. I'm always like an object to them. And I do think a lot of women, if not most women can relate to this idea in some way, because now knowing what a healthy relationship looks like and how it should feel and understanding boundaries and being secure in myself. 

I know that my partner is also responsible for setting boundaries and that we are on a totally equal playing field of like, we both should have pleasure, we both should communicate, we both should be setting boundaries if we need to whereas before I definitely did not get that message. I felt like it was very much me who had to do that and like men are just like these, you know, Thirsty, like,  you know, sexually thirsty creatures, and that's all they think about.

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting that you resonate with that too, even coming just from like a broader culture. But what really resonated with me with what you just said was the idea of knowing now that you're on an equal playing field. Like, I just love that phrase. Because that should be the truth, that we're on an equal playing field when we come together for intimacy, rather than All these roles ingrained where one is in charge, or one is the watcher, or one is the wanter, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, and how amazing is that when we can come together in like this beautiful space of like you know, whether you're in a relationship or you're just having even just sex with a person, like how you can communicate and know that like you're both there to experience pleasure, like that's what this is meant for, and to want to also pleasure the other person.

So it's, it's really like this beautiful experience you get to have versus you know, feeling like  almost like out of control, which is something I felt a lot when I was younger. Yeah. That's a really good word for it. Like just out of control. Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because it's like, we're talking about the fact that we were supposed to have control, but I actually felt very out of control where I was like, why do, why do I have to do all this?

Like, Is it even true that men are just these sexual creatures and that's all they think about? That's just not true, right? But that is definitely the message that we are given, and women are so sexualized just in general in culture that, you know, so I'm sure even from your experience it was like, even more.

And actually that's, that's something I'm curious about, is What was the messaging around outside of your faith? Like the things that were going on?  Yeah. It's always interesting to contrast like being in a purity culture and then being around other students and high school and everything that are different to an extent.

I do agree with you that just more broadly within the culture, there's a lot of those messages reiterated that men are more sexual. There are consequences if you're a girl who enjoys sex. I feel like just American culture is pretty steeped in like, Christian ideals, so I think that's probably why that shows up for anyone.

But I definitely think in high school and stuff, I do remember sometimes feeling really ashamed that I was so naive. And maybe this is something everyone feels around sex, but I definitely remember feeling that. But on the one hand, I was taught to be like super abstinent and super pure, but on the other hand, when surrounded by peers, I oftentimes felt naive and kind of ridiculous for them all having conversations about sex or this or that and me like literally not even knowing what it meant.

And just feeling like I don't even know what they're talking about, like I don't know what this means. I feel so naive. That was kind of an interesting contrast to be like in high school, I guess, with other kids that had more knowledge than I did and feel odd and just weird about what I didn't know. 

What a struggle. I mean, you're hearing from your, your culture was this, this purity culture, right? Like you're hearing like the literal opposite where it feels uncomfortable anyway, and you feel ashamed of your body and that it's not safe and dangerous and all this stuff. But then on the very flip side, you also feel odd for not knowing those things.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's more like kind of catch 22s as well. We're like thinking about the modesty piece. Like, taught, once again, to dress super modestly. That means like sleeves that cover your shoulders, shorts down to the knees. And, like, in the Mormon church, and I think also probably other Christian groups, there's the phrase modest is hottest.

That's what they say, I guess, to make you, like, feel better about yourself, like, hey, it's actually really hot to be modest. But the phrase is, like, a conundrum in and of itself. It's, like, it's important to be modest. So that you're not, like, hot, attracting these men, but actually when you're modest, you are hot, like, you are attracting these men.

So it's this, like, double bind where it's like, so do you want me to be hot or not? Like, is my value to be sexual and to look good or to be the opposite? Like, what am I supposed to do here? It feels like you can't win. Like, either you're modest and you're not sexual, But that's so you actually really can't be hot and sexual.

It's just confusing.  And maybe that leads to it feeling weird about like, I'm naive, I don't know anything, but I'm also like told I should be modest. But then there feels like there's social ramifications where you're treated as an odd person.  Totally. Yeah. And it got me thinking about how that's actually so true.

And a lot of things you've said, like that you're not supposed to have sex. You're not supposed to even like make out or explore anything like that. Yeah. But then you're like, you're supposed to be good at sex as soon as you're married.  It's like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah. Or like another thing I remember is like in church classes, people would often joke with the young men saying things like, ooh, the more prayers you say, the hotter your wife will be.

So once again, on the one hand, you're told you shouldn't be sexual. On the other hand, you're told the most important thing is for you to be sexual. Like you are this prize if you're this hot person that this guy gets.  So you're just this object basically for his pleasure. Yeah, no matter what, you're an object.

And also, you should be hot, but you shouldn't. You should be sexual, but you shouldn't. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel like this is just, like, the theme of women's lives. Like, I just feel this so deeply. Like, it's so interesting you saying this because I feel like I can relate so much. Like, even though I didn't grow up in that culture, it's like, yes, that is exactly how it is.

It's like, I'm supposed to be hot, but I'm not supposed to have sex with a lot of people. Or, like, I'm supposed to know how to please him, but I'm not supposed to, like, Actually do that, right? I'm a whore if I do, but I'm like damned if I don't. Yeah, yeah, like this awful double bind catch 22 that women are just stuck in.

And you're set up to fail, no matter what. Yeah, yeah, you are.  I think that's what a lot of women feel.  Like so deeply in so many areas. I remember there was a big Just like women posting a lot of stuff after the Barbie movie. Did, did you see that? I did. I loved it. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I love it. And there's the part at the end where you know, she talks about like being a woman and our culture.

And that's exactly what we're talking about. It's like, you're supposed to do this, but then you can't do this. Like, it's like, you're supposed to be everything. But then you feel like nothing, like, at the end of the day.  And I love in the Barbie movie how that's like, almost the key for them all to snap out of it, is when they're like, when you realize how illogical it is to be a woman in patriarchy, you can kind of like snap, snap out of it because you just can't do it.

You can't do it. So you're like, okay, fine. I guess I won't play that game anymore.  Wow. It kind of sounds like your journey.  Yeah. I honestly think so. Yeah. When you realize you can't win that game, you're like, why even play? You know, why not just do what I like? Why not find first what I like, since that was hard in the first place?

Yeah, yeah, it's like, it doesn't even make sense. Like these, this, this double bind, I love that word, like it doesn't make sense. It's totally contradicting, and at the end of the day, we should just do what feels good for us, and what we feel is authentic to our own lives.  Yeah. It doesn't, it's not tied to your worthiness.

And I think that's such a powerful thing that you said that, but like, it's like, you didn't, they, they messaged you that you didn't feel worthy if you did this thing. But your worthiness isn't tied to anything.  Yeah, yeah, and like, right, that 18 year old version of me that was so terrified for a second that I was maybe close to being as bad as a murderer. 

She kept living and was like, obviously, I'm not a murderer. Like, obviously, that's not who I am. You know, the more distance you get from that, the more you look back and you're just like,  of course I'm not this worthless, murdering, crazy human being. Like, of course I'm still good. Of course I'm still me, which is kind of powerful in and of itself. 

It is. So let's talk about how you can overcome having experienced this purity culture, feeling shame around sex and the impacts that it has on, on women. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, a lot of it was logically looking at some of those beliefs, questioning them and realizing, wait a second, they don't make a lot of sense, right?

Like what we were just talking about when you look at it and you're like, there's no way to win. There's no way to succeed. That actually doesn't make any sense. That's a point for me. That was a point of being able to step away and deconstruct. Or like when I talked about my current husband and I discussing sex before we got married and we're like, The rules are this, but what does that even mean?

Like, it's vague, it's confusing. That actually doesn't make sense. Like, it doesn't make sense to be doing these things that are vague and ambiguous and confusing. That's just kind of illogical. So for me, a big piece of it was realizing there's not a lot of rationality. There's not a lot of sense. So there's the logical piece, but then there's the emotional piece, right?

Like, first I had to work through the logic, but even after doing that, there was still some emotions that come up attached to it, like, we're having sex, but I feel guilty or dirty for wanting to experience pleasure, even though there's a logical side of me that knows that's fine. And so I think unraveling that emotional piece,  it takes some time.

I think it's about confronting it when it comes up, like, hey, I noticed that I'm feeling this way right now.  I'm feeling this way right now. Okay. It doesn't make sense. It's not true. I'm just going to remind myself of that. And then the next time it comes up, like, hey, I noticed that I'm feeling this way right now.

Doesn't make sense. It's not true. And the more you start doing that, the more you start reauthoring your story, reminding yourself when you have that feeling come up again, I think that feeling can change over time. So that's kind of what happened for me. I think another big thing for me is I've actually loved reading smutty books.

Like I love reading spicy romance books that center like female pleasure. That's also really helped rewrite my own past beliefs and really associate sex with pleasure now in adulthood. So that's kind of like a fun thing that I think has been really useful and helpful for me is reading cute books.  Ooh, I love that.

That's so juicy.  Yeah.  Do you have any book recommendations for anyone listening? I mean, I love cute books. I do. I'm trying to think of what some of my favorites are. I love the author Emily Henry. I think she's a good writer. I like her stuff. Ooh, I mean, I love Bridgerton. Bridgerton's so fun. I think the more modern authors that are out there writing do a really good job of trying to like detach from problematic views around sex.

So I would definitely look at more modern romance authors too. Cause certainly that genre is not free from some of the problematic stuff. So. You do want to be, like, a little bit careful about what you read so you don't ingrain further some of those beliefs in your head. Yeah. What are other ways people can overcome, like, the shame and just, like, these really intense messages around their own bodies?

Yeah, I think education is a huge piece, like educating yourself on your body, on your anatomy, on what pleasure is, can be really helpful, like I love the book Come As You Are, that's a really wonderful book about sex, that like takes a very educational perspective, with a lot of like little workbook activities you can kind of work through on your own or with a partner.

So educating yourself is big. I would say seeing a therapist, right? Like we're both therapists, but definitely being able to talk with someone else about it can be really helpful too, especially because a therapist can typically step in with some of that psychoeducational stuff and just provide a really safe space for you to work through and deconstruct some of the beliefs that are sticking that are hard for you to get through. 

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And I think also being very intentional about who you choose for that, like choosing a therapist like myself or like you and asking when you do your consultation with them, like, is this something that you've worked with before? Like, is this something you feel comfortable like talking about?

Because if I'm being honest, I think a lot of therapists and people like in general have a lot of shame and are uncomfortable. talking about it. So I just think being intentional, if this is something you want to deconstruct, just like being mindful of who you actually choose to work with you on it. Yes.

I've also heard, like I am involved in a lot of post Mormon spaces. So I see conversations of other women coming from my particular culture that discuss like what's helped them. And something that I see a lot of other women talk about in those communities is seeing like a pelvic floor specialist. Like, getting into the specialization more on the physiological side of things can also be really helpful for some people.

Hmm, that's great.  Tell me a little bit more. You mentioned, like, re authoring your story. What are other ways that people can do that? Hmm yeah, that's such a good question. 

I think it starts by understanding what your story has been. You know, you have to, like, look back almost. Like, what have I been told? What have I been taught? And then, like I said, does that make sense? Does that seem like it's true? I think another big piece is exposing yourself to other people with other experiences.

As you hear other people's stories, maybe you find things that you resonate with, like we did today, and you can kind of work through things together. Or maybe you talk to someone else who has a completely different lifestyle, who's had sex with many people and is very happy and successful and thriving, and it's like, oh wait,  Actually, they love their life.

They're doing great, even though they're doing this thing that I was told for so long was wrong. So just exposing yourself to other people's experiences and stories, I think, can also,  like, ease that rigidity around, like, this is the truth, this is the way, and kind of make you realize, wait, There's a lot of different ways that people go about this in their life, and there's a lot of different paths to being happy and to enjoying their life and their sexuality.

What are they doing? Hmm, okay. What if I did that?  Yeah, I love that. Like, seeing other people's experiences, and ultimately we all, we all want to be happy, and I think that's the messaging that you're, you're speaking to is like, if you didn't do these things, you won't be happy in your life. Right. And seeing that other people are happy and living fulfilling lives, even though they didn't follow the same path, I think is incredibly powerful. 

And then also,  It seems to me to like that we're talking about tuning into your intuition, like knowing what feels good for you, like learning to be more connected to your body and tuning into those feelings of like, does this feel right for me? Or does this not feel right for me? Because for some people, maybe Being in this purity culture and Mormonism and all that like feels really good to them and that's aligned for them.

Yeah, but figuring out like, is this belief and what I've experienced is that actually aligned with me? Because it's okay if some of those beliefs are yes, and some of them are no. Like you get to decide what feels good.  And then I'm curious what other tips you have for like getting more connected to your body.

Yeah, I love that question. So I actually do work with some clients who are experiencing some things like this, or experience an evolution of their own beliefs, or trying to figure out what they like. And something I really love, especially for younger people, is what I call the no slow go method. I think sometimes it's overwhelming when you feel like you don't know anything about yourself.

So I like almost first focusing on like, what are the yeses for me? Like what comes up and I know for sure that this is good and that I love it. That's my go category, right? If stuff is coming up and I immediately feel like really happy, really excited, these feelings tell me it's a full body yes, then just go.

Like go full steam ahead. Do whatever that is that's bringing those feelings of joy to you. On the other extreme, there are probably experiences or feelings you have that tell you immediately it's a no, right? Like maybe you feel terrified. Maybe you feel disgusted. Maybe you feel scared. Those things might tell you like, hey, this is a no.

This is very clear to me that I do not like this. So I'm going to say no here. And then there's probably a lot of stuff that's in between. Where you kind of feel like, I feel kind of excited about this, but I feel kind of nervous. Or like, I feel interested and curious, but I also feel a little worried, you know, and I call that your slow category.

Like it's not a yes, it's not a no, you don't have to put it either place yet, you can go slow with that. You can experiment, you can take your time, you can think about it, you can explore and then maybe move it into the yes or the no. Eventually, as you kind of figure it out, but I kind of like breaking it down like that for my younger clients, especially like what's because I think that helps you get in touch with yourself is to start looking at yourself and be like, what tells me no clearly?

What tells me? Yes, clearly. And what am I still figuring out? The whole time you're doing that you're tuning in. You're asking like, what am I feeling? What comes up in my body? What comes up in my mind?  I love that. I feel like that can be used for so many things actually. Yeah, I think it does. It definitely applies to beyond sex.

I think there's a lot of stuff that it's applicable for. Yeah, I love that. Well, do you have any more tips or even like resources for anyone who's experienced this or wants to continue to work through and deconstruct some of the things they have experienced in their life or are going through. 

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I would say once again, finding a good therapist, like we talked about, that maybe has some specialty or expertise in specifically what you're trying to explore. So if you're trying to explore sexuality, for example, like you would be a really great fit, because that's an area of expertise that you have.

Right? Or if you really want to specifically talk about how to come from a purity culture, that's something that I have expertise in. And you can definitely find therapists that like advertise themselves as people that help with like faith transitions or things like that. So trying to find someone that kind of matches what you're looking for, I think, is really helpful.

There's plenty of great books to read. Like, once again, Come As You Are, I think, is a really good resource that anyone can access on their own for learning more about their body and sex and how it works. Yeah, those are probably some of my tips. That's great. Therapists.  I love that. And you mentioned to me there were two podcasts that you sent to me that have, like, more Oh, yes.

I guess, like, more in depth of this. And what were those? Yeah, so there's a podcast I love listening to called Girls Camp and it's all about a woman who is post Mormon, kind of deconstructing what it was like for her being Mormon, some of the crazy beliefs. And she treats it in a way that I think is very communal and very fun, like she'll oftentimes bring in listener comments and go through other people's stories.

So that's just kind of like a fun, light hearted way to explore specifically the topic of like maybe how to leave a high demand religion. That was one of them that I recommended. Oh, and then the other one, I think. I can't remember the name of it. I have to look back on my list. But Natasha Helfer is the podcast host and she's also actually post Mormon, but she's a therapist and her area of expertise is sexuality.

And she's a sex therapist specifically. So she really deals with sex therapy as it relates to like strict purity culture. So she would be a good resource. She has a podcast to listen to if you specifically want to dive into the purity culture, sex therapist kind of aspect of things. Oh, I love that.

I think I'm gonna go listen. This is so interesting to me. Yeah, super interesting. Yeah, even if you're not Mormon, like even if you never grew up religious, it can be kind of fun to like hear about these stories from other people. And it's interesting, like we said today, what you resonate with and what you're like, actually that happened to me too. 

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think a lot of this can translate over to other religions and like I didn't mention this before, but I grew up Catholic. And so  I mean, there's a lot of things that translate, you know, the mindsets, maybe not as extreme, but they're definitely very similar. Like don't have sex before marriage and don't do this.

Otherwise you're sinning and you need to go confess it. Right. Like there's a lot there. I think I'm going to go check out the girls, the girls camp. That's I love it. Yeah. It sounds so interesting.  Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been such a great conversation. I will leave everything, you know, contact info and all that in the description, but yeah, it was so good having you on.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Christina, for having me. Thank you for your questions and your thoughts too