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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Embracing Neurodiversity: Lindsay Keating's Approach to Eating Disorders and Inclusive Sports Programs
Navigating the complexities of neurodivergence and eating disorders is a journey not many can speak to with authority and empathy quite like our guest, Lindsay Keating. It's a path she treads daily, not just in her personal life with her daughter's challenges but also as a beacon of support for others through her initiatives, Nature Moves and Spectrum Sports. This episode peels back the layers of early developmental delays and the nuanced dance of diagnosing conditions such as autism, painting a vivid picture of the intersection where personal experience meets the broader societal need for awareness and understanding.
Feel the pulse of energy as we track the creation of innovative programs that champion inclusivity in sports and the outdoors for children on the spectrum. Lindsay's narrative weaves through her transformative journey from burnout to creating opportunities that nurture both physical skills and life lessons. The conversation takes a dive into the importance of non-critical support and the power of open communication, especially in the sensitive process of eating disorder recovery in neurodivergent individuals. It's a testament to the profound impact that tailored community programs can have, not only for the children they serve but also for the adults who find a newfound purpose in guiding them.
As we bring this enlightening dialogue to a close, we take a moment to honor the resilience and diverse tapestry of experiences within the neurodivergent community. Lindsay's story and the powerful insights shared serve as a reminder of the unique strengths and perspectives neurodiversity adds to our world. So sit back and join us for this heartfelt episode that champions the beauty of differences and the importance of forging understanding and support within families and communities.
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, joined with my main man, photon John Kev. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:Ah you know, just Monday, monday. Yeah, I know it's being very Monday today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's true, I know what you mean. Eh, how are you doing? Yeah, not too bad. I know what you mean about mondays hey, they suck. You know what I mean. Because you've got such a long period until it's the weekend again, and you know what I've sort of like taken up another job now where it's five days a week, where I used to be four days a week and I had that flexibility on the Friday type of thing. So only having two days off, it's sort of like, oh, but I'm getting there, I'm getting there, but you know how it is, mate, but anyway, we should get stuck into this. We've actually got a really interesting topic. We've actually been talking about trying to get something like this on for a while now. So let's call our guest up. So today we're going to be talking about neurodivergence and eating disorders with our guest today, lindsay Keating. Lindsay, welcome to Neurodivergent Mates. How are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm really good. Thank you guys so much for inviting me along to come and chat to you on this topic that I am so passionate about. It's really close to my heart and I think that it's a great opportunity to get some more awareness out there about how these two things can, unfortunately, work together and create havoc.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. Thank you so much for coming on. I think when you put through the topic you'd like to talk about, we're like, yeah, this is cool, you know, because I think within our community, this is something that probably isn't spoken that much about. It definitely is something that is a big, you know problem. So, you know, diving a bit deeper into this is definitely something we're keen to talk about. But before we do get stuck into this, let's just do a shout-out to anyone who hasn't listened here before, if you haven't already done so. Please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, Twitch, youtube, linkedin, and if you are listening to us through a podcast, you can check us out on anywhere you listen to your podcast. Vote on John. What did you think about that one today, mate, getting it down pretty well, fat. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Flawless, my friend flawless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I'm getting better, I'm getting better.
Speaker 2:So cool and no more twitter, yeah do you know what right?
Speaker 1:you know what the weirdest thing is if you're on the news or whatever, when they people they'll say oh, such and such posted on x, what was formerly twitter, and it's like okay, I think we're at a stage now where we know X is no longer Twitter. We don't need to confirm it, but anyway, also too, if you have any questions while we're going through the podcast, please feel free to comment on here, and we'd love to hear from you. Photon John, you ready, my man, I am ready, great, awesome. Lindsay, like I said, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, but you know, tell us a little bit about yourself. We'd love to hear from you okay, thanks, uh.
Speaker 3:So I am originally from california. I came out to australia when I was 24 and I started, basically started my life here, fell in love with the Aussie lifestyle and found an opportunity to be able to stay and then, about you know, I don't know 10, 14 years down the track, I had a child. So my little girl is now 10 years old and pretty much from the time. So I'm just going to get stuck into to her and in my experience not a problem really is kind of going to lead us more into this conversation.
Speaker 3:So I think it's good for you guys to have that background. So my daughter was born and she pretty much had developmental delays from the very start. And when we first started getting taking her to some therapies she like, for instance, the first one was when she wasn't rolling, she wasn't sitting up, she wasn't rolling over. So we saw a pediatric physio and me and her dad and her were sitting on the floor and the pediatric physio came in and took one look at her and said, oh, she has low muscle tone. And then she looked at me and she said so, do you? And I was like, really? And she's like, oh, yeah, you know, I can just tell by the way that you're sitting, you're a little bit floppy or you know, your spine isn't as straight, or something like that. And I was like, oh, ok, yep. So it was like, yeah, hereditary, move on.
Speaker 3:And then she was exclusive. It's like she refused solids, she refused bottles, she refused everything. She was exclusively breastfed for 15 months. And my mom said, oh, but so were you. You were exclusively breastfed for 17 months. I was like, oh, okay, hereditary, move on to the next one.
Speaker 3:It was almost like all her her early developmental delays I had when I was an infant, but back in the day we thought anything of it. They just kind of let kids develop the way that they did and didn't really take stock of, uh, any of those delays, provided that they hit those milestones eventually and so, um then so coming back to my life, so when my daughter was so, for all the time that she was going to therapy, early intervention, all the therapists were saying global developmental delay, definitely not autism, definitely not autism, definitely not autism. And then when she was five and a half, she didn't even have to have any formal. You know they go through all those testings and things, nothing like that. We walked into the pediatrician for about the third time I think we'd seen that one pediatrician and she's like definitely autism. And I was like, wow, so many people got that so wrong for such a long time. And considering that we'd been seeing pediatricians and therapists and you know everything under the sun since she was about three months old, and so then after that it was probably maybe, I don't know six months or so down the track, I thought this is really interesting, like how did so many people get it so wrong.
Speaker 3:And that's when I started to investigate female presentation of autism and one of the things that I saw was that eating disorders can be quite common. And I was like what? Because I was anorexic from the time I was just before I turned 17 and that pretty much carried on, sort of on again and off again and you know, I'd recover and then I would fall back into it, and it was just sort of one of those things that until I really decided that I wanted to have a child, that I was like, right, I'm ready to be done. And I went and got the help that I really needed. But so then, when I saw that about the female presentation of autism, I was like, okay, I need to go and speak to somebody.
Speaker 3:So then I went and saw a psych and we went through, you know, he asked me a whole slew of questions and he said, look, you know, because I was like, am I autistic? And he said, well, look, you've got definitely got some autistic traits, but you're screaming ADHD. And I was like, can you talk me through that? Because I was a good kid, like I didn't get in trouble. Like when you think about ADHD, you think about the kids who are running around crazy, the kids who are always in trouble, the kids that you can't control. And I was not like that at all, like I was a really good kid and I got good grades and I sort of always follow the rules and um and so anyway. So he's, he talked me through that side of things and I was like, okay, that makes sense, but even now I still like there's those autistic traits. Man, they're pretty strong yeah, yeah yeah, so that's.
Speaker 3:That's a little bit of my history on on this particular topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah no, no, no, that's cool. Um sorry, are we hearing that reverb back from that? I think's just a little bit, I think so it's all good. Sorry, Kev, did you want to go.
Speaker 2:Oh, just, you know, the restrictive eating habits and autism is so common. I think it's strange that it didn't dawn on more people earlier that that would connect so readily. Really, you know, I know my, my sister, when she was quite young, would only eat certain colors. You know, and I've known a few autistic people who eat different, differently.
Speaker 1:Um and uh, yeah, that just occurred to me then how obvious it is that those two things could intersect like that I think it's interesting too, how, like you were saying, especially with your daughter, that you went to so many different, I suppose, doctors, what was it that you went to one, that the penny dropped for that one, what was it that made that work?
Speaker 3:So because she had all the developmental delays and so that was, it was always sort of there that side of it, but because she was really social, that was the part that I think why everybody was saying definitely not autism, and but what happened on that particular day at that appointment?
Speaker 3:So so my daughter's special interest is cars, buses, trains, which is very typical autism, right. And so she was sitting in the waiting room and she was looking out the window and she was talking about all the cars in her own little language, cause at that stage she still couldn't, she didn't have very great communication and she was pointing out mom, mom's car and daddy's car and all the you know, basically all the cars and the white car and um, and so then when we got into the, uh, into the room with pediatrician, she was asking for the cars to play with, and then pediatricians, like, she's really interested in cars, isn't she? And that is when the penny dropped. It was this special interest. And now, when I think about it's that with autism and this is where I get curious about ADHD, is that hyper-focus and those that um, that we all tend to have?
Speaker 1:yeah, totally, totally, totally, no, no, it's. It's so a pediatrician. So look, I'm no expert in all this. That's someone who looks after, like what is, what do they do? Exactly right, because I'm thinking how would they know to go? Hey, that's autism.
Speaker 3:Because well, isn't that about?
Speaker 3:food and stuff like that yeah, I think pediatrician is just like a general doctor um that deals with children and infants and children, oh yeah and so they have, they can, they can diagnose, um, and I think it's a psychologist that can diagnose and, um, they can prescribe medication and do all of that. Sometimes they will refer on to some of those other specialists and those other specialists will be the ones that will do the diagnosis. But in this case, uh, it was just, it was so obvious to her, and now that she's yeah, now that you know, we've known that she's autistic, for she just turned 10, so four and a half years, and yeah, it's quite apparent.
Speaker 1:But my daughter she also has intellectual disabilities.
Speaker 3:So sometimes I think actually some of those traditional autistic traits are actually not as strong because of the intellectual impairment that she has.
Speaker 1:As well, and I think this is how a lot of people like that can probably fly under the radar. Kev, I would probably say you were probably a lot like that, like you know, like you could probably, you know, and like I deal with a lot of autistic people and you know you've met one autistic person. You know what I mean. If you know you, you get my drift there.
Speaker 2:Right, that's so diverse, right, but meeting you, kev, you know we can have great conversations and you know you wouldn't think, hey, this guy's autistic well, that's where, you know, the adhd and the autism battle each other, um, so you know I can, I think the you know I'm not an expert, but in my opinion, from what I've seen of myself, they, they can contribute to a harsher burnout.
Speaker 2:Um, because I'm burnt out on different, almost opposing levels sometimes and you know, the ADHD would make me want to go out and be social and all that kind of stuff. And then you know, I know that people purely with ADHD have social burnout as well. But for me it's sort of doubled up with this autism thing where I just will hermit extremely hard but then my ADHD suffers because I'm not getting any stimulus. But yeah, so I guess, when you're talking about certain symptoms that you would use to diagnose being masked, I would say absolutely, my sister also. So she's autistic and has an intellectual impairment and acquired a brain injury from birth. And yeah, it did do that. It did make it present very differently and it took us a while to sort of fully figure it out.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think sometimes they well, one of the things that I'll talk about later on, when we get into it a little bit more, is just about some of the anxieties. Later on, when we get into it a little bit more, is just about some of the anxieties. And you know, sometimes when there's an intellectual impairment, sometimes it sort of numbs down some of that anxiety. But one of the things I was going to say about the ADHD sometimes there's no off switch right, and I think that's what leads to grief.
Speaker 1:Well, it's hard to know, yeah, it's hard to know when to hit the off switch. Right, and I think that's what leads to three. Yeah, it's hard to know when to hit the off switch, you know, and it can be easy just to go that little bit extra with that because you're feeling so good when you know you might be like man, I feel really good, but then boom, it can just hit you like a ton of bricks when you least expect it.
Speaker 2:um, and I can't, I can't the hard part yeah, and I can't turn it off, even when my autism is in the back of my mind, going stop. I don't want to do this. You know what I mean. So adhd is forcing me out doing things, uh, and well, my autism is going. I don't want to be social, so I'm like in both places at once, which is very normal.
Speaker 1:But you know what, like I think with everything you've just explained, it's really led you to a lot of the great work you're doing. Now Did you want to maybe share with our audience the stuff you're now working on to help the autism or the autistic community?
Speaker 3:Sorry, yes, absolutely so. Yes, I was working in international freight, so global logistics, and I had no off switch and, being, you know, global, I was doing conference calls at 4 o'clock in the morning and then I would have another one with Europe at 9 or 10 o'clock at night, and it was. It was literally I was working around the clock and um and, but I was just loving it because it was a new role, it was a challenging role and I was like yes, yes, yes, yes, um, and ultimately burnt myself out. And so I went to go get help with, uh, with burnout, basically, and uh, they, I, I was given a homework assignment to do a mind map about you know what my soul wants, and I looked at all the different aspects of my life. I looked at my daughter, I looked at the things that I really love to do and, uh, and I just walked into my next session. I said I know exactly what I need to be doing and I have started a business it's called nature moves and we run school holiday camps for autistic kids. So we go camping so it's actual tent camping and take them out doing stand-up paddleboarding and kayaking and go out hiking in the national parks, and we do that mainly over school holidays.
Speaker 3:So what I really part of my big vision was having ADHD and sitting in front of a desk in an office with a culture that says, you know, we're all supposed to eat lunch together and we're all supposed to, you know. I was like this is not the environment for me and I wanted to create something where I could give work opportunities to other people who are autistic or have ADHD. And because I know one of the things that there's a couple of different things. So one of the things that the site said to me was the best thing for kids with ADHD can do is ride their bikes to school. And it's funny because I I've worked really hard to get my daughter to be able to ride a bike, and so when I left, I was like, right, we are riding our bikes every day and we do, it's awesome, but but I just I'm really I love the idea of looking outside the box and having other work opportunities available for us and not being sort of pigeonholed into this office box.
Speaker 3:That is just so not healthy for our brains, right? So that was a big part of why I started Nature Moves and now I'm also launching Spectrum Sports, which is an after school sports skills program for kids on the spectrum. So that's it's. You know I've done. I've worked with some of the researchers and found why autistic people might start a sport but then they drop out and they never get back into it. And I mean I was an athlete, I've always been an athlete.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I'm just. I think sport is fantastic. It's so good for just your strength and your well-being and your like, your friendships and your communication and your work ethic and all these things.
Speaker 2:Can I ask what some of the things that the researchers told you about why that is yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So the, so the couple, some of the main ones are just having more flexibility. So normally like, if you sign up for for kids soccer or kids footy, then you have to enroll for the whole term or the or the whole program and, and that that's really hard because some kids might just want to come once or twice and so having it really sort of free-flowing and they can come with, come when they want, come when they're feeling good and they're feeling up for playing sport and then, but not feel like it's something that they've got to commit to for, you know, for a whole term or, um, something like that so having the flexibility, yeah, um, and just having, you know, no, no uniforms, and just trying to remove all that, those sort of sensory triggers that might, um, make sport not as appealing and less competition.
Speaker 3:So it's this. My program is just sports skills. So it's, you know, running, jumping, throwing, catching. One of the things that so many of us have is low muscle tone. And as kids. If they're not playing sport it's going to be even harder for them to develop that their strength and coordination. So creating a program that's fun and it incorporates some of that in a really fun way. You know, egg and spoon.
Speaker 1:And they get to meet people too.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. Which could be?
Speaker 1:lifelong friends 100% yes.
Speaker 3:And if autistic kids aren't being exposed or being given opportunities to participate in sport, sport, well, they're missing out on those other opportunities that come along with it.
Speaker 1:Like this, yeah, no I think that's a great idea because we have had other people come on and share other programs that they do, like dungeons and dragons and minecraft and stuff like that, which are awesome programs, by the way. But you know, I was sitting there thinking, oh, I don't know if that would the way. But you know, I was sitting there thinking, oh, I don't know if that would really be for me. Do you know what I mean? And you know, I think, when we're hearing other things that are out there, aka sports, because I loved sports when I was growing up as well, it was a great way for me to get out, have fun. But yeah, I think it is important that these kids have this type of thing to be able to go to if they feel like doing it.
Speaker 1:Sorry, kev did you have something you wanted to say.
Speaker 2:How do you manage? Do you specifically or mostly focus on autistic kids, or is it kids of all different neurodivergences?
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, because here with the NDIS, these programs can be funded through the NDIS plan. So unfortunately ADHD doesn't qualify for NDIS funding. But what we know is that or at least if the kids that I've worked with so far are anything to go by almost all autistic kids are also diagnosed with ADHD. Not all, but it's a very high percentage.
Speaker 1:Always comes with the body, doesn't?
Speaker 3:it Always yeah Right.
Speaker 2:I do know you know. You know like, for instance, I'm a big fan of um strongman, so world's strongest man, that kind of stuff, and um, the two times recently world's strongest man is autistic um. So I do know that you know. Um, I've heard a lot about his journey and how long it took him to feel comfortable in the gym and doing things like that. And his brother luckily, who was also a strong man, his older brother helped him through that and to get into it. So do you find it can take a while to sort of ease them in, because you know physical contact?
Speaker 2:socialising fast, socially moving environments. I guess maybe not everyone is autistic, but how do you ease them into it and make them feel comfortable?
Speaker 3:Well, this is just starting, so I'll keep you posted, keep us posted.
Speaker 1:Maybe we can have a podcast on neurodiversity in sports later on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, but do you know what my theory with all this stuff is? Just, it's got to be fun. It's got to be fun. And you know one of the things when I think about the off switch and not having one if we can, the more involved we can get in things that are fun.
Speaker 3:It helps us to regulate that off switch and to go okay, there's other things to life here and when we can become a little bit more balanced. If we're being exposed to things and they're fun and we want to do them, then it might sort of bring us away from some of those other things that we might be hyper fixated on.
Speaker 1:And that's the same with adults as well. You know we need stuff that's fun and exciting, and I'm sure with what you're doing with your programs, they're fun and exciting and that's what helps you with like your. Adhd, I'm assuming.
Speaker 3:I know right, I was like like that's why, with the, with the uh mind map about what my soul wants, it brought it like, yes, of course I want to do amazing things for the kids, but it's also it's like okay, what? What is my brain need and what's going to be the best work for me to be doing?
Speaker 1:totally, totally. Hey, can I just say something? Right, remember, before we got on we said we'll probably, um, we'll have the questions, but we'll probably go off on tangents a little bit. We've sort of actually see what I mean. We've sort of done that a little bit, but it's been good conversation. You know what I mean. But you know, getting back into what we were coming on to talk about with, uh, neurodivergence and eating disorders, what do you feel is the relationship between neurodivergence and eating disorders? What do you feel is the relationship between neurodivergence and eating disorders? So we're going a little bit different way, different direction now. But, um, I think it's definitely still important to, yeah, but you know what?
Speaker 3:it's, it's all. When you really start to break it down, you start to look at it, you go, it kind of makes sense, right it's like you're, um, the guy, that's the strong man because you get the hyper focus and for me, I.
Speaker 3:So there was a couple of things, so the the we, we want that dopamine hit right and so what I? What I've. When I started to put it all together, like I love a challenge, love a challenge, and so I'll get into something. So I got into triathlon and then I went like I'm going to do an Ironman. I went to an Ironman Like I just I have to go like to the biggest challenge possible and um, and with an eating disorder Well, for me at least, with anorexia, it was all about calorie counting and what's the lowest number of calories I can have in a day. And it was that constant challenge every single day, every single day counting. And it's also the um, it's like somebody called it the other day, looping. It's like stuff that loops in your brain and you just can't get it out of your mind. So I would literally go over the amount of calories that I was having, god knows. It was like it was nonstop. All I was thinking about was calories, calories, calories, calories, could I say?
Speaker 1:would you be like at the shop and you'd get like a packet of something? Can you be like tallying up all the calories in each bag of rice or something, or anything like that?
Speaker 3:Do you know what? I remember this one experience that I had vividly. So I, when I first started high school, I was really social and I went out to parties and I was yeah, I was, I was just a social, social kid. And then it was my junior year of high school, which is when you really should be going out doing all your socializing right. And I remember I was sitting next to the couch and I had a calorie counter book and I was reading the calorie counter book and I think it was a Friday night and my dad came over and he was like what is wrong with you? Shouldn't you, shouldn't you be out partying? And that's what he said to me. And but I was, and so it was.
Speaker 3:It was the numbers. I loved the numbers. I probably could have told you how many calories was in every single food. I didn't need to go and look at what was on the, what was on the label, because I probably had it memorized in my brain from just reading the calorie counter book. And I remember in one of my English classes was we had to do a yeah, we'll get there, yeah, keep going and I'll read it out shortly yeah, one of one of the one of the um.
Speaker 3:So I had to do a, a report, and it could be on anything you wanted to, but you had to kind of explain something to the class. Teach the class something. And I remember teaching the class how to read a food label on on, and it was like looking back on it I was like man.
Speaker 1:Is that like a project? Was that like it was a project it?
Speaker 3:was just you had to do.
Speaker 1:Oh really, wow interesting that would have been yeah, yeah, and that's the.
Speaker 3:That's the same teacher that called me out. And then, because the whole thing also with eating, and this was another, so I got a. There's a couple things here with the neurodivergence, so, um, there's an, there's an underlying anxiety and there's a, um, there's a like, an almost like, you can't, you don't tolerate rejection very well, right, and then so that was one of the things. So I had like all the um, it was like a perfect storm. All these things happened.
Speaker 3:My mom was very, very food conscious. She was always on a diet, so I was watching her and girls are really good at masking, right, and so if we see people doing something, then it's really easy for us to just adopt what they're doing. Uh, we can bring that on really easily. Same thing Uh, I was, I was dating a guy and I went to his house and his sister was anorexic and I got to see exactly how she did her food. I got to see what she said. That was another one. So just having that that and then just being able to just see something and apply it really quickly was another thing that set me off. And the control I think that is the biggest one from a boyfriend that I wanted to get back together with. He said no. So I was feeling like that part of me was out of control. And then I got the exposure from the other girl, like there was just all these things that sort of shaped it, but the control was a big one.
Speaker 1:And what do you mean by control? The control of not being able to control that you weren't eating enough or what? What do you mean exactly?
Speaker 3:so when, so the, so the. For me, anorexia was very at the beginning, I just wanted to lose, lose a little bit of weight, and then I started to I and I started to see the scale go down a little bit and I was like, oh, that's, that's awesome. And then I, so then I got to really um, like the control part of it was just everything had to be exactly so and the. You know, there's only like a couple of things that we can really control in our life what we eat when we go to the toilet, like those, those. They're those sort of like um, nobody can really force you to, to do those things, and um, and so that was that was part of it, but it was more the rejection from, from my ex-boyfriend. That's what. I couldn't control, that and I didn't know how to cope with it, and so I just went into okay, what can I control? And that's how that was.
Speaker 2:That was what really set me off do you think that is why it's so prevalent in teen girls? Because puberty is hitting and you feel out of control of your body and your life and you're experiencing intense emotions like that sort of, sometimes for the first?
Speaker 1:time and, you know, are we seeing, especially with social media, and that these days that like this is not. This has been going since you know, we were all young as well, you know. So, um, is that, is it because we're seeing other people doing certain things that it influences, or how does it sort of work?
Speaker 3:well, I? I definitely think that there is, like I don't know, there's not a lot of girls who are happy with their bodies. I think that's a big issue, right? What's? You know? It seems like everywhere you look, there's a diet that we should all be on, there's some exercise program that we should all be doing, there's a you know there's everybody wants to be a little bit thinner, it seems like. And so we. That's just kind of like the society that we live in, and so we do those things.
Speaker 3:And then all of a sudden, an ADHD person who doesn't have an off switch. They start going down the path, they're getting this dopamine hit because they're achieving the challenge that they set out to achieve, and then it's just like a downward spiral. They're no off switch. So then they keep going. And for me so I used to weigh myself every day and if I saw the scale, the scale always had to be going down, had to be going down, had to be going down, but I was unable to actually find a maintenance. So in the, it was like, in order for it not to go up, it just had to go down. And that was when that was really the um. But it was just the challenge, the constant challenge. And I got to the stage where I was like I hated my body. I was, I was so skinny and I look back at photos. I'm like, oh my gosh, that was a skeleton, that was literally a skeleton. I look back at something like I've I have these prom photos. It just it was.
Speaker 2:It's scary and um, and was that? What was that?
Speaker 1:a bit of a moment, I couldn't stop it, couldn't stop it, yeah was couldn't stop it yeah.
Speaker 3:Sorry, Was that a bit of a moment where?
Speaker 2:sorry, I think we're getting a little bit of lag here. Was that a bit of a moment where it sort of dawned on you this was a mental illness like that I had fallen into, because you're looking at it with a completely different perspective now? You know what I mean. You're not seeing the same thing that you were probably seeing in the mirror at that time yeah, interesting.
Speaker 3:So I always say I I had a devil on one shoulder and I had an angel on the other shoulder and the devil was so loud and the you know and the devil, just the devil didn't want to be fixed, the devil wanted to keep, you know, because the devil was getting, it was getting all the things that it needed, but unfortunately that was not what was healthy for me, it wasn't what was healthy for my body, and I think one of the real challenges is and I think that this is something that we can get a lot better at is just education and acceptance for what is health?
Speaker 1:you know, like skinny, does not equal health and uh, you know they and other things you know when you look at bodybuilders, but does not equal health and I just think I was actually thinking the exact same thing before you said that with you know you're talking about how um women have um a real body image issues, all that know I'm thinking. In this day and age as well, men are having such big body issues Starting to develop it? Yeah, yeah, from a young age, Young age I know, they're hitting the weight like really young.
Speaker 3:And again it's unrealistic. And boys making comments that they're not happy with their bodies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's unrealistic imagery. You know, again, and this is in relative terms. I mean it's not new, new, but in relative terms this is a new thing for young boys, um, this sort of stuff. But you know, I, for instance, I was talking earlier about strongman these guys all have guts, you know, they're like they're not bodybuilders, um, uh, but that's what they need their body, the shape they need their body to be in to. You know, lift 500 kilos or anything like that, and you see them laugh whenever. You know people who don't understand the sport ask them.
Speaker 3:Why don't you have a?
Speaker 2:six-pack. You know you're so strong and they're just like. That is not strong, that is not healthy. It's not normal to maintain on a long-term basis, but this is what everyone thinks is healthy.
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right, and I think they're just. You know, the runway models, they're not helping anybody either. Your Calvin Klein models with their six-packs and everything else that's not helping, because you know there's people out there that are going to be striving to achieve that. You know there's people out there that are going to be striving to achieve that and you know, heaven forbid, they're neurodivergent and they don't have an off switch and they just take it too far.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, so that's a, I think was it Lisa Curry, Kenny the swimmer? Didn't her daughter some a similar type of eating disorder that eventually killed her?
Speaker 3:oh, I, I don't know oh okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So lisa curry kenny was like I think she was uh, she was an olympic yeah, olympic swimmer and her husband was like her, um, an iron man. Back in the day they were like the um, I suppose like 80s the day they were like the, I suppose like 80s, early 90s. They were like the power couple type of thing and yeah, her daughter, you know, fell into that trap and unfortunately passed away from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, exactly you know. But what I did want to ask is how do you, how do societal stereotypes and stigma surrounding both neurodivergence and eating disorders interact?
Speaker 3:so this is an interesting question and thanks for asking I so I mean back in the day, let's. Well, I was. I was, let's say I was 17. You know, that was that was a long time ago and there was no such thing as neurodivergence. There was no like ADHD was. I don't even think I knew that what. I don't think I knew what autism was back then. I knew what autism was back then.
Speaker 3:So they the stigma. It's kind of hard for me, but I can just kind of put my put my anorexic hat back on from back then and bring it into today, where I know a lot more about neurodivergence and and there's a couple of things. So eating disorders is one of those things that people don't really like to talk about because they don't know what to say and they're scared that they might say the wrong thing. And I find neurodivergences is fair, it's, it's quite similar, it's improving. But there's a lot of, you know there's some some parents who just do not want to accept the fact that they have an autistic child and you know they might try to hide their neurodivergence from their friends and family and things like that.
Speaker 3:And so I think that in the same thing is. So you just it's not sort of openly spoken about. And if we can't I'm a huge believer that if we can't openly speak about stuff, how are we ever going to increase acceptance, awareness and support? So, being able to have open conversations and being able to say what's going on with ourselves and maybe with our kids or with our friends, and being able to have more open, honest conversations, I think that would go a long way to help prevent and to help more people who are suffering from eating disorders on their on their recovery journey, because I think, this exists yeah, yeah, and I think as well like we have to remember that eating disorders aren't just, like you know, not eating sometimes, like eating the wrong foods, can be a big problem, being being addicted to those.
Speaker 1:And this is another thing where a lot of say ADHD is get that dopamine hit from eating rubbish food and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Well, I was going to say, you know, like anorexia, that's just one form of an eating disorder, but you've got. You know bulimia as well, where you know they might binge and then go and get rid of it.
Speaker 1:Bring it back up again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, but you're absolutely getting that dopamine hit. If you're like you know one of the things like water. Like I don't know about you guys, but water. Who wants to drink water? It's so boring. I love water. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I was only just speaking about this the other day. When I was a kid, right, I, my mom would buy like cordial and that, and my brother, he'd be like, yeah, cordial, but I used to love cold water. I'd be like, oh, I love cold water but, that's just me, that's just me see if I want to get.
Speaker 2:It has to be like electrolyte tablets in water.
Speaker 3:Yes maybe Wow interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I find water so boring.
Speaker 3:So boring, yes.
Speaker 2:I don't mind saying, and I don't think mum will mind me saying, that you know, when I was growing up she had quite a severe eating disorder, and so I sort of I look back on my memories of that now very differently with the perspective that I have now. But at the time it was just oh, mum's got her calorie counter book out again. She was very big on the calorie counter book. And then I'm like, oh, I'm living with my grandmother for a while now. I wonder why that is, you know, because she'd gotten quite sick and whatnot. And then for me growing up, I had periods in my life when I was in my 20s where I was basically starving myself, you know, eating once every few days, something like that, and not thinking much of it, and I didn't understand why my friends were so freaked out by it, particularly my housemate.
Speaker 2:But then, yeah, then later, and I've also struggled with drug addiction at various points of my life, and not in a long time. Now I've been about 20 years. Good, but um, uh, uh. Then the overeating happened. I ended up at 111 kilos, at five foot seven, um, and that was after I had quit cigarettes.
Speaker 2:Um, or I put on like it goes from one thing to the next thing I was still just trying and I didn't connect it until years later that what I was after was the dopamine, and that's when the gym came into it. And I'm not ripped, I'm not some bodybuilder, I just enjoy exercise. I enjoy doing it a lot and I'm, like I said, I'm more on the strong man side of things, like I like those guys and I mimic them a little bit. But, um, yeah, it was the whole reoccurring theme throughout all of those years and all of those different periods from my childhood through to now was the dopamine.
Speaker 1:That's that's really what I was chasing totally, totally no interesting stuff. I was, I was gonna. I thought I'm pretty we're go over this question, but I thought we pretty much covered it, yeah, in what we just spoke about then. So I thought we might move on to this next one. So what roles do executive dysfunction issues play in the development and management of eating disorders in neurodivergent people? So I think that's a really interesting one.
Speaker 3:It's very interesting it's sort of a two-part question like the development and the management yes, well, and you know, some of this stuff I don't really, I never, really would have put it down to that until somebody asked me the question.
Speaker 3:I'm like oh, of course, uh, and one of those makes sense it makes sense eating the same food all the time, like that's if, if, a if a recipe has more than three or four ingredients in it, forget about it too hard, the better right yeah, and so it's, it's, and then so I would end up end up having the same thing and it would be like one one, you know, like one item of food or or two items of food, and that would be, and I would have it every single day. And I think part of that is just the uh, it's just because it's easy and you just don't have um, mind you like, for a while. But seeing, this is the interesting part is when I think that an eating disorder or an addiction or any of those other things that seem to affect us a bit more, uh, often there a lot of them are coping strategies. And so then we go okay, well, what's the underlying reason why so many of us have to have coping strategies? And I think that's where we have to look at the, at the anxiety and the control and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3:Um, and then we look at some of these uh, coping strategies because they help us with our off switch. Some of them do, but, um, but one of the one of the things that, um, yeah, so when I, when I find that, yeah, so when I find that when I'm really good and I don't have any anxiety and I don't have any, like I'm much more free and I'll get into my cooking and I'll be happy to do elaborate things. But then it's the when I find that the coping strategies and the need for control and you know, life's just getting too hard and I'm probably suffering from burnout I'll go into, like, okay, it's a, it's a two item meal, Like, don't ask me to eat anything more than two items at a meal, Um, and so those are. Those are some of the things that I have recognized when we, when we talk about, uh, executive functioning, Um, it's just the you know the types of things that we're eating.
Speaker 3:But I did. There was something else that I oh, and another one is like with the calorie counting. It was so, so important to have portion control, and so then you go into you, I would only eat pre-packaged things or things that are, you know, very easily defined, because then I could have my accurate um, um so, um, like I said, like, uh, jonathan mcdonald posted this up before, so this calorie counting is often due to a need to have control or agency.
Speaker 1:Did you find?
Speaker 2:that kind of feeds into what I was saying before, where, like puberty, is a time where you can feel really out of control of your life and your body, and neurodivergence can sometimes make you feel that way as well. So that's kind of what I was getting at is, is that part of the need for control?
Speaker 3:yes, yeah, and I think that that's where some of those um the you know, you know, like the, the portion of those, um, the you know, you know, like the, the portion control. I guess that all goes into you know, if you, if you know, if you're eating something, that's portion control. Well, it's a lot easier to control it If you go, if you go to the bakery and they've baked something you don't know what's in it. So it's like not not going to go there, not not going to go there, I not going to go there, I don't know what's in it.
Speaker 1:I can only eat something where I know exactly what's in it and I know exactly how many calories are in it, um, so yeah it becomes a very like restrictive, very um, um, yeah. So um, yeah, this is a question. Oh sorry, hang on, um sorry I'll just there with the dysfunction sorry, what, what, what? Sorry, sorry, I'm just off.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, that's okay, yeah, no no, no, that was a good.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I just got a message from someone, so no, no. But yeah, I think as well, like when we can just be throwing, you know, when everything just comes down and we're just throwing out, I think for myself it could be easy just to, you know, just to be picking something up from the shops that's easy to make or something like that. Or, you know, even just chopping up, kev, how do you go with like, chopping up things all the time, do you like sometimes go, oh man, I've got stuff today?
Speaker 2:This is where I don't really have a problem. I'm making stuff today. This is where I don't really have a problem. So I cook a lot and I love creating strange recipes from all over the world. So, yeah, not an issue for me. I think it's a little more with food.
Speaker 2:I have a thing for strong tastes and sometimes I'll create a recipe and I'll add extra of everything and a neurotypical person might eat it and be like whoa, okay, right, they're like extreme spice or extreme saltiness or extreme base. It's like I create this extremely complicated meal just to get more salt or more spice, so I'm kind of fine with that.
Speaker 3:That would be that like sensory seeking right, yeah, and it's kind of fine with that.
Speaker 2:That would be that like sensory seeking right, yeah, and it's kind of the hyper-focus right Like food. For me is like art. I mean, it is art. You really sort of have to refine the process and the amount of everything that you put in and you come out with something cool and it's also always been a way for me to socialise when I'm not being very good at it.
Speaker 1:Do you know what right like?
Speaker 2:kev could cook really awesome food.
Speaker 1:Let's all go to his house and hang out yeah yeah, true, but you know where I like I try to make different types of meals, like really healthy ones. So, for example, I saw a um a um recipe for like, uh, like a pizza base, but it was made out of rice. Has anyone ever tried like a pizza base with rice? Now, my wife doesn't like eggs so I was like, okay, I'm going to get to make replacement. I ended up getting some like pumpkin and like mashing it up together and mixing it all together, but people were just like, oh, what are you thinking? Type of thing. But I thought it tasted all right, you know, but anyway, that that's. I'm just going off on a tangent yeah, I don't think.
Speaker 3:I don't think I generally follow any recipe.
Speaker 1:I'm always yeah, I like to change things up, right right, oh you do.
Speaker 2:The autism in me wants the structure and that's how I learn the recipe. But then, once I've learned the recipe and I keep going, I'll start, you know.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Or I will look in the fridge and it might be close to shopping day and I'll be like man, what am I going to make? And then I'll be like I've got this, I've got this. It's like those TV shows back in the day where that bloke would look at the trolley and go. All right, I'll come back to your house and make this.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you had that in the States but when we were like young, there was this guy who used to go around to like people's shopping trolleys and go oh yeah, you, oh yeah, you got this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll take you back to your house and we'll make, and then he made like a full meal out of it and that I don't mind doing that. You know that's sort of fun, but well, it's a good challenge, right? Yeah, I've got limited things here. What can I make, like yeah, I don't know, I don't know about you guys, but I sort of feel like, if I can just make something into a challenge, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or a little activity. Okay, how could, how can I make?
Speaker 3:something into a challenge or a little activity. Okay, how can I make, how can I turn into the daily, the daily tasks into an activity?
Speaker 1:And I think as well, like when you can like make a for me personally, when I can make a simple, tasty meal that's healthy for me, um, um, I feel like I'm winning if that makes sense. I'm just like, yeah, okay, here's my new meal, but then once again I go back to making that meal over and over again. You know what I mean. So it's like just going around in circles. But anyway, let's get on to the next question here. I think Kev's just ducked out Something's happened there. But how can family dynamics and relationships influence the development and recovery from eating disorders in neurodivergent individuals?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that one because I want to talk a little bit about recovery. But the family dynamics, it's so important and, like I said before about we're we're always watching and girls in particular that are that are good at masking, they can take on you know the behaviors and of people around them and they're really good at learning quickly and implementing and so, yeah, so just being really mindful for the family members about you know what their behavior is, what their body image is like, how they talk to themselves. You know when we say things like oh I'm such an idiot like our kids are listening, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, say things like, oh, I'm such an idiot like our kids are listening, you know, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah and um, and also the you know having uh, when, if there's, if there's a challenge, or if we're starting to recognize, oh, there's something going on with their eating, they're not eating as much or they're getting really fussy or something like that. Um, instead of trying to become more, I guess, discipline, disciplinarian, uh, actually to try, and, you know, embrace it and try and talk to them about it and just really having really open communication supporters hey right yeah, and one of my things was, um, like I loved being social.
Speaker 3:So if I was going out with friends or if I had a boyfriend and we were going out, that's one thing that would sort of help me with my off switch. And so I think family but it had to be fun, right, it had to be what I was into and I think that's something that family and friends can really help when somebody is suffering from an eating disorder.
Speaker 2:Can I ask Sorry? Well, I think it's that sort of typical approach of like correcting rather than understanding. You know that neurotypical people can sometimes take to neurodivergent people. Apologies for leaving. By the way, I had an old-time moment. I just had to shoo some drunk people away from my window.
Speaker 1:Oh, there were some drunk people near your window.
Speaker 2:You should have invited I thought they might be trying to get in my gate, so I just had to go check.
Speaker 1:Apologies oh okay, wow, interesting, interesting. Okay, you don't get that often well, actually it's sort of interesting. You say that right now I I don't know um about you, but did um when you were younger. Did you actually drink alcohol at all?
Speaker 1:I did yeah and was, did you know? Because let's say, um, uh, I know for myself, if I go out drinking on an empty stomach, I'm not gonna be, I not going to really last the night. Did you find problems like that? Because you were, you know, not maybe eating properly, having been very, you know, underweight? I'm assuming you probably didn't really need that much to get to that limit.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, when so in the before limit. Yeah well, when so in the before, um before when the eating disorder really came on.
Speaker 2:I rarely drank alcohol because there were so many calories in alcohol, like, yeah, um, and so I became very.
Speaker 3:I became very anti-social, very, very, very anti-social. I didn't want I used to go and eat my lunch in my car when I was in high school because I didn't want people to see me and um, and I, just I, I literally I just wanted to be by myself. I didn't want people around me, because if people around me, they would want to fix me and I didn't you know, the devil on my shoulder didn't want to be fixed what were you afraid that they would go?
Speaker 1:why are you only eating that? You need to eat more?
Speaker 3:okay, and that's, and that's where the the, you know, the relationships with the family and friends, like that type of commentary doesn't help, because all it does is it makes the person with an eating disorder not want to be around them. Dynamic, where you're, um, you're inviting that person to come along and even though there, you know, might be having, like, I used to go out for Mexican and I, you know, I'd had something that was not very uh, you know, might've been like a bean and rice burrito instead of a chicken burrito or something like that, um, and then, and then it became where it was less like a veggie burrito and but it was, was still probably. That was probably a lot more than if I had stayed home.
Speaker 3:You know, and so I think just continuing to keep the person involved and not being critical so critical about what they're doing or what they're eating when they're around them I think is really important, because the second they start becoming critical, they don't when they're around them, I think is really important, Because the second they start becoming critical they don't want to be around, so they just start. Nah, I'm out.
Speaker 2:And they're just piling criticism on top of the self-criticism that's already there.
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like you've got to bite your tongue and just go.
Speaker 3:Okay, I can see she's really not eating that much or she's asking for all these changes, but you've got to start somewhere. The fact that she's probably just come out of the house and gone to dinner with you, well, that's a big step in itself.
Speaker 3:So, just be appreciative of that, instead of just trying to really cut back on the criticism and just be supportive really cut back on the criticism and just be supportive. And also, so this is where I just think that it's so important to understand where, particularly ADHD and autism, whichever one it is, that is, you know. But I think if somebody has an eating disorder, one of the first things they should do is try and understand if they're neurodivergent. And if they're neurodivergent, then start to look at what of those, what sort of traits, and then start to work on that side of it and hopefully, through addressing that, the eating disorder will start to minimize. Or if it's the anxiety, if it's the control, okay, let's work on that. Let's see how we can sort of soften up around the edges, and then the softening of the edges will also soften up around the food side of things as well, instead of just looking at the eating disorder and going, okay, well, let's fix her.
Speaker 3:Yeah, interesting, yeah, very good, that's interesting yeah, because I look at it now, and I think if people knew that I had ADHD back then, they're probably going to take a different route to support you. Instead of just trying to make the even sort of yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:Can I just ask I'm asking the impossible because I know from what I've seen that there isn't like a single moment where you're just like, oh okay, now I get it and I'm better. It's a long process of slowly getting better, but was there like a thought that just really struck you when you were starting to move towards getting out the other side of this that you wish you could communicate? To anyone else who might be listening, who know having similar issues, to sort of help them along in the process.
Speaker 3:The damage that the eating disorder has done to my body is my body will never recover. I try. When I decided that I wanted to, I was married and we wanted to have kids. I tried for two years. I was. You know I had there's a there's a doctor here in Brisbane that specializes on recovery from eating disorders so I was in her office, I think, every fortnight. I was doing blood tests all the time. She had me on all these different sort of diets to try and increase that and increase that, just to try and get my um, just to try and menstruate naturally and it never returned.
Speaker 3:So the and they've said that the damage is it's lifelong, it's gonna um, you know, there's gonna be things that I've done to my body and it's never going to be able to recover. So when?
Speaker 1:sorry, oh actually you finish it and then I'll ask it after what you were about to say, because, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think for me because I so badly wanted to have kids that that was kind of like the okay, lindsay, get your stuff together and be done with this once and for all. And then, once I got the be done with it once and for all, I was like do you know what? I don't want this looping going on in my head anymore. I was just done with it. Um, but I think it needed to, and there was so much um, there was so much that I needed to learn about myself and to become much more self-aware, umaware before I and that was part of the recovery process. So again, no, if I had known that I had ADHD way back then, I would have known so much more about myself Way, way, way back then. And that is such a huge part of a recovery or growth for anybody, right, like we have to. The more that we know about ourselves, the more that we can grow. And having being neurodivergent and not knowing about it for your entire life, like that's a massive piece that we don't know, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, it definitely makes a lot more sense once you get a diagnosis, so you have some understanding. Um, yeah, hey, food on john. Did you have any other questions you want to? Um, ask lindsey. We are getting towards the end here, so I think I might wrap it up.
Speaker 2:No, although I will quickly say you were just talking about once you get the diagnosis. I spoke at a panel at the University of Queensland the other day and I just mentioned that moment where you get the diagnosis and you look back through your entire life at a different lens. All of a sudden it's like your life flashes before your eyes and I watched 60 heads in the room just go, hmm and nod.
Speaker 2:We all had that moment, you know. But no, Lizzie, thank you so much because I know again, first or secondhand, at least through family, how hard this is to talk about and the fact that you were so brave to talk about it is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for sharing it. It's been insightful and you know, obviously I'm not someone who's lived what you've gone through, so it's been so helpful to sort of get that experience firsthand from someone who's experienced it. So thank you.
Speaker 3:Well, I just hope that it will help. You know, if having conversations like this, even if it just helps one person, if it helps one family, then do you know what my job here is done? I think there's, and it just needs to be more. We can't be ashamed to talk about this stuff. We can't sweep it under the carpet Like it's life or death really. And you know this idea that you know people just look the other way because they don't know what to say, like that's. We need to move past that.
Speaker 1:So thank you for having me on here to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:I do feel like there may be another conversation to have here at some point in the future. Yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So you know, if people want to connect with you or maybe they've got children who might be you're based up in Brisbane, correct? I'm not sure if you said you were from Brisbane. So if there's people interested in maybe some of your programs for their kids or maybe they just like to connect with you, what's the best place to find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I also have the Positive Action Autism ADHD group on Facebook and that's linked to the Positive Action Autism ADHD podcast. So PAAA pod. So if anybody wants to connect with me, they could always jump into that group. P-triple-a-pod. So if anybody wants to connect with me, they could always jump into that group. Um, and there's also, you know they can. If they want to find out about the camps, they can go to the website, wwwnaturemovescomau.
Speaker 1:And the spectrum sports program is wwwspectrumsportscomau nice well, thank you so much, lindsay, for coming on the show today. It's been a pleasure. It's always great to hear from people like yourself doing so many fantastic things, so thank you.
Speaker 3:Oh, awesome. Thank you, guys for putting this together.
Speaker 1:Not a problem. My name's Will Whelan with my main man, Photon John, and this is NeurodivergentMates Till next time.