Neurodivergent Mates
Navigating Academia as a Neurodivergent Individual: Sol Willian's Journey and the Push for Inclusive Education
When Sol Willian joined us to share their experience navigating the academic world, little did we know how deeply their story would resonate with so many. Their tale, woven into our latest podcast, reveals the intricate fabric of life as a neurodivergent student—before and after diagnosis—and the sometimes paradoxical struggles that come with disabilities both seen and unseen.
Throughout our conversation, we illuminated the realities of higher education for those with neurodivergent minds, from the nuances of disability services on campuses to the personal and collective journey of reframing what it means to be disabled. Sol's openness about their identity challenges and triumphs invites a broader dialogue on inclusion within academia, while we also dissect the diverse environmental factors that can impede or empower students in their educational pursuits. Alongside the quiet battle with imposter syndrome, our discussion encapsulates a community's plea for a learning space that celebrates diverse intellectual patterns.
Our episode culminates with strategic insights on how educational institutions can and should evolve to support neurodivergent students more effectively. Touching on the potential of assistive technology, the importance of early intervention, and the transformative power of tailored support, we stress the need for proactive strategies over reactive ones. As we sign off, we reflect on the inspiring interactions with the younger generation and the promise of a more inclusive future. Join us for this heartfelt exchange that not only enlightens but also advocates for the empowerment of every neurodivergent mate in academia.
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When Sol Willian joined us to share their experience navigating the academic world, little did we know how deeply their story would resonate with so many. Their tale, woven into our latest podcast, reveals the intricate fabric of life as a neurodivergent student—before and after diagnosis—and the sometimes paradoxical struggles that come with disabilities both seen and unseen.
Throughout our conversation, we illuminated the realities of higher education for those with neurodivergent minds, from the nuances of disability services on campuses to the personal and collective journey of reframing what it means to be disabled. Sol's openness about their identity challenges and triumphs invites a broader dialogue on inclusion within academia, while we also dissect the diverse environmental factors that can impede or empower students in their educational pursuits. Alongside the quiet battle with imposter syndrome, our discussion encapsulates a community's plea for a learning space that celebrates diverse intellectual patterns.
Our episode culminates with strategic insights on how educational institutions can and should evolve to support neurodivergent students more effectively. Touching on the potential of assistive technology, the importance of early intervention, and the transformative power of tailored support, we stress the need for proactive strategies over reactive ones. As we sign off, we reflect on the inspiring interactions with the younger generation and the promise of a more inclusive future. Join us for this heartfelt exchange that not only enlightens but also advocates for the empowerment of every neurodivergent mate in academia.
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, joined with my main man, photon John Kev. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all rugged up here in sunny Queensland, it's all rugged up.
Speaker 1:You need a hard enough, I think, mate.
Speaker 3:What's going?
Speaker 1:on man.
Speaker 2:It's probably cooler down here than what it is up there, the new house is on the water, and so we just get the sea breeze. Yeah, true, you would get that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what. You know what's interesting about that, right. So I live in Sydney, right, and you know we live sort of out west type of thing and it can get really hot, but then say, if you go into the city on the harbour, man, the temperature can be like a 10 degree drop. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So, yeah, you must get something similar there where you're just feeling the breeze pretty strong.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, lots of wind, lots of cold, but I guess, I like it nice, nice, nice, nice.
Speaker 1:But I tell you what we should really get stuck into this today.
Speaker 2:You're excited for our guest today, mate I am, I am, uh, she's organized some very cool things that I've been a part of.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. So today, what we're going to be talking about is the current state of support for neurodivergent students in higher education, with our special guest, sol Willen. I'm pretty sure I pronounced that name correctly. Did I pronounce your last name correctly?
Speaker 3:Probably, I think it's William. Yeah, william.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was sort of looking at it like I sort of looks like my name, william, but with an N, so I was like, oh okay, we might as well go like that, but thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, my pleasure, we might as well go like that, but thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, my pleasure. Yeah, nice, nice, nice. So before we do get stuck into this, what we might do, we'll just do a little bit of housekeeping, all that. If this is the first time listening to the show, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, X, twitch, youtube, linkedin, and we're also available on all podcasting platforms. If you are listening to us from there, please rate this show. Give us a thumbs up on YouTube because it helps with the algorithms and it helps get it out to more people. So the more support we can get the better. Photo and John, what did you think of that? One brother? Good man, good you got it Nice.
Speaker 1:I'm getting it pretty well, aren't I Also, too? If you've got any questions for us during the live podcast, which we are currently in at the moment, please feel free to put it into the comments there and we can add it in as we go. Now I tell you what I think. This is a really great topic. I think that when we think about neurodiversity, especially in higher education, we're still missing the point a lot of the time, you know. So I think coming on today having a chat about this is great. I'm seeing a lot of higher education providers really working towards it but we're still missing the point in some areas when we go like that. So before anything for our listeners, please tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:Me Cool, I can do that. So my name is Sol. I am still getting used to my surname as well, because I've had it for about two years now and my husband's australian. I'm originally. I've been born in israel, so I've been here for about six years plus minus um, more or less. I had a bit of a um. I have a bit of an interesting relationship with the whole neurodivergent side of myself. Like many other young female presenting neurodivergent folk, I was not actually diagnosed as neurodivergent until quite a bit later. So I went through my bachelor's degree undiagnosed yeah, that was. That was interesting. That's more for later and I ended up sort of finding myself getting really interested in this field and just in, I guess, advocacy for inclusion and diversity in general, um, and ended up going and studying what I'm doing currently, which is, um, studying towards a master's of social work okay, yeah, great, fantastic.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to hear hear about. I meet so many people who do like a bachelor's or whatever and they don't even realise at the time that they were neurodivergent, and then they're getting diagnosed afterwards type of thing Out of curiosity what were you? You know, looking back at it now, what did it sort of? What makes you go well, what are those aha moments like you must be, like, oh my god. Now I know why. When I was doing this, I was burning out, or I was doing this or I was doing that, what would have? What was the?
Speaker 3:thing um. I have very many. How, how much time have you got um? I'll pick I'll have, I'll try to think about one that's like uni related. I think that, um, like when I learned that and I'm probably going to mention that again later because it's something that's been quite, I think, really important for me to realize when it comes to education and just university in general, seeing that I still struggle with getting through things that I need to get through when I'm not interested in them that I need to get through when I'm not interested in them.
Speaker 3:That idea of the paradox of being really organized but also really struggling to stick to that organization where it makes a lot of sense, where I would create this whole study plan and go super meticulous and be like, yeah, I've got this, and then be absolutely incapable of actually following it, um, and then get really frustrated at it and just you know sort of project. That frustration at myself, um, which probably is not a great way of dealing with it. And when I heard that that is like stereotypically sort of um liking lists and organization but then struggling to follow it is very much like an like autism, adhd sort of combo fun thing it's yeah I like I've learned to just use lists for memory, but nothing else.
Speaker 2:I can't really organize my day that way. It can be a thing that can remind me oh, I need to do that. I think I'm feeling inspired to do that thing today but I can't follow it to the letter very well.
Speaker 3:To be fair, I think that some of my aha moments were actually not necessarily education-related, because I've always a massive nerd, um, and just like that stuff, but, um, my diagnosis was like, long story short, my diagnosis was um, sort of brought about kind of by accident, kind of not um, where I was still am so going through some chronic illness problems and at the time my younger sibling was getting diagnosed with autism as well and at that time they attributed my gastrointestinal symptoms to potentially, um, it's.
Speaker 3:It's a tricky story, but essentially, um at some point told me oh, you've got this physical stuff, but this is just a fear for it to be only physical, hence you must have some sort of eating disorder and try to sort of keep me in hospital for that. Um, um, spoiler it is, it was not an eating disorder and um, it was actually at that particular specific thing, rather than being off it. It was me being quite autistic and always a very picky eater. So, uh, when you call an oreo evil and a dietitian um hears that and decides that that is disordered, um, I think I look back and I just wonder how, like five different dietitians didn't even consider that.
Speaker 1:You know that's so interesting because we actually had a guest on a few weeks ago now who was talking about her eating disorder. There you go and she was like if and she was like her daughter is autistic. Um, she isn't autistic, but she's adhd. But she, she has autistic traits.
Speaker 3:And she said if I had been diagnosed for a lot of these traits earlier with her adhd, probably she would have, um, not had such a difficult time with eating disorders and growing up that's unfortunately actually a very common pattern that you see, especially with female um, that females that I diagnosed later having that sort of association or even a correlation between being late diagnosed with autism, so not having those supports earlier on, and being labelled as certain behaviours or certain things. So you see those high rates of depression, anxiety, eating disorders. It's actually quite common, unfortunately Another one, I think often they misdiagnosed, because women get misdiagnosed with BPD rather than autism, which is a whole other thing as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're getting the wrong information, and I've often heard about that from female friends of mine who have been. They had to almost like be convincing their doctor that hey, no, it's not this. I'm pretty sure it's this type of thing. You know what I mean. It sucks when it gets to that.
Speaker 3:I still have, like pretty frequently, the good old, but you can't look autistic conversations health professionals too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had, had, I've straight up had I have, like health professionals, look at me and say, nah yeah, I used to have it a bit with friends where, even if they did sort of accept it, you can tell they were kind of looking at me going and then you know, then they'd be getting annoyed at me later for displaying autistic behavior yeah, this is what I told you about.
Speaker 3:That's the thing it's. It's people have this very specific idea of what it is in your in the mind, and then you don't fit that, so hence you cannot be that but yeah, yeah, but it was interesting, especially when I first was hanging out with you, kev, going back what?
Speaker 1:14 years or whatever, however long we've been hanging out or whatever, right um the thing that, um, I sort of like, um I I never I. You would tell me that you thought you were because you weren't actually. You told me you thought you were autistic because you didn't have a diagnosis back then, but for me I was just. I didn't even like think twice about it. I didn't think, oh, but he must be, he doesn't look. I did not honestly think twice about it.
Speaker 1:I was just like yeah, I think I must have been like. Yeah, I know I'm dyslexic, Do you know what I mean? So it was sort of like it didn't matter type of thing. So your environment is sometimes just yeah, sorry.
Speaker 3:It's actually super interesting because I have like kind of a similar experience. But I knew at some point, when I was a teenager especially, I knew something was different. Like at some point when I was a teenager especially I knew something was different. I mean I was like surely different, um then wasn't quite interested in everything, um that some of my friends were, you know, just different. And then I went on my very first date with someone that um at the time said he had asperger's which is not quite a time of years anymore, but still. And then I was thinking that I see a couple of behaviors but I'm not like him, so surely not. So it was my own sort of prejudice, almost, and miss just not being known any better I was the same.
Speaker 2:I was the same with adhd. I knew I had autism, I'd known it for years, got the diagnosis like yep, that makes sense. And then, uh, my therapist goes. But also, and I was like what? And I was like adhd. I had a completely even though I've known will for years and I've known people with adhd for years, I just had this idea in my head of what adhd was and didn't know how different how different, it would present I mean, yeah, I just never considered it for myself well, yeah, and I, yeah, and I was the exact same.
Speaker 1:So I was like um, I, I like. My perception of adhd back in the day was some crazy nutter running around, like you know what I mean, like the hyperactive type of stuff, because that's how they used to explain it to kids in school and stuff.
Speaker 2:I remember the teachers telling us that that is what it would be like.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't until I got into the neurodiversity space and started to be like I always used to be known as, like the dyslexia guy. And then, once I sort of like got into the community more and started speaking to people, I used to think, gee, is that me? I can't be me. I'm not like, you know, not crazy, but like hyperactive everywhere type of thing. But certain traits I remember I would be like, oh, my god, that's I would read about. I'd be like, yeah, that's me, yeah, I ticked that box. And it wasn't until, like a good friend of mine said, yeah, I'm pretty sure you're this, you need to come in and do this. But, um, yeah, crazy. But anyway, we should probably move on because we're doing such an adhd thing, right?
Speaker 1:now but all this information anyway. But I'll tell you what we've come on to speak about neurodiversity, especially in higher education, and the support. So you know, tell us a bit about the work as a disabilities officer in general. So you know, tell us about your role and tell us about what you do exactly.
Speaker 3:I'd say it's quite a unique role. I think a lot of the student executives um roles, especially at the student union, are quite unique because we find ourselves in this position of being students ourselves and still being somewhat, um, I guess, motivated by our personal experience and lived experience when it comes to some of the stuff we do and we learn as we go as well. But we are also expected to have, I guess, a bit of a representative position where people might come to us with needed advice or support or to create events for them, and then we find ourselves in this sort of place where we are responsible for a little bit of everything and that sounds like a lot, but it is kind of a lot because we end up having um as a part of the union. You have a little department and all the different departments will have different some executives so disabilities is one of them, and myself and one more officer, um, sophie.
Speaker 3:We essentially um co-officer that position where it involves um both maintaining a physical room where folks at the university, so students with disabilities, can actually go and recover and rest, um, get some food and socialize and etc. Um, which I'll tell you a bit about that space maybe later, probably, and then um, it goes from that physical maintenance to um advocating on a university administration level when it comes to policies and procedures, or creating social events, or professional opportunity events, or just a wide variety of anything someone attending university with a disability might be interested in you said something at the panel that you asked me to speak at um that I really liked um about.
Speaker 2:you know, I don't care whether or not I can see your disability, we're here to support you. Yeah, and I was like oh, I wish I had heard more of that growing up.
Speaker 3:That's kind of I try to live by what I wish I had more earlier. That's kind of some of my philosophy is what I think. What I think would have been better practice is something that I can practice myself. So it's the idea of I felt judged, I felt misunderstood or alienated or any of those adjectives you can probably think of, and I actively try to change that within our collective and within the union and the department in any way I can. Really, I wish we didn't have the issue of billing like imposters. My psychiatrist actually called it a bit of an imposter syndrome for people that are neurodivergent, being like oh, surely not, I'm normal, I'm just not good enough, or things like that. It's all those feelings of like invalidation, feeling like you can't actually do it, um, when it comes to university, for instance, that I try to change.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we actually did a cool, uh cool episode on here with um sorry, dr matt, I can't remember your last name if you're listening, but um, dr matt sakreski sakreski on imposter syndrome and its prevalence, particularly in neurodivergent people. Yeah, it was a really interesting chat because you know you're forced to explain yourself more than with no disrespect to anyone, with another disability, but for instance someone with a wheelchair, everyone just goes. Oh okay, you're in a wheelchair and they make accommodations.
Speaker 1:But also too Oops sorry, with a wheelchair everyone just goes okay you're in a wheelchair and they make accommodations, but you know, but also sorry, I say, but what I was going to say is that for such a long period in our lives um, especially in, you know, in early education, or that we're constantly failing and making mistakes or whatever like that, not fitting into society or being the norm that when you do start to do some good or you're doing well or whatever, it's sort of like you were talking about imposter syndrome before you start to think, well, no, I can't do that, because I've always been this way and I think that was what used to hold me back a lot of the time until I really got to a point of like, oh, stuff, that I'm just going to keep pushing forward and make it happen, type of thing. But it can be very difficult to get past that point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I have an interesting complicated relationship with that imposter syndrome idea because you can feel that on different levels, professionally, personally, it can take a pretty wide variety of forms and it's quite interesting because it was one of the very first things probably. Yeah, one of the very first things that I actually had to deal with as a disability officer is, whilst I'm still learning, what does it mean to be a disability officer? Because essentially they give you this role, this description, and tell you to run with it. You are essentially bound by some categories set by the government of what is allowed to be spent on, which is, again, quite, quite open to interpretation sometimes, but essentially has to do with student support. And then you're essentially told, okay, go crazy, build a budget.
Speaker 3:And one of the very first things I had to really deal with and then consider is, while making that budget, people walking up to us during orientation and the very first things they say is am I allowed to join you?
Speaker 3:And people will say the disability collective or neurodivergent, or see our events and and genuinely walk up to us and say, oh, like I don't know if I'm allowed and it just, it just breaks my heart, because one of the things that we really like hope is that people realize that, first of all, if you're an ally, you're welcome to engage anyway. I mean for disabilities and people with disabilities to be included as a part of society. They need to be treated as a part of society, not like a separate section, but at the same time there is this sort of like am I allowed to ask, am I allowed to explore? That people sort of shy away from and then we get those situations where people think they have to prove it to me that they're disabled and they don't actually realize that if they tick yes to I have a mental or physical disability, they're automatically a member and it's just up to them if they want to engage.
Speaker 2:Just out of curiosity. Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 3:No, you're fine.
Speaker 2:We've come across. We've had a lot of interesting conversations around this over however many episodes over two years. We've had a lot of interesting conversations around this over however many episodes over two years. Um, but some people do you find um among the younger generation, there's a conversation happening about the term disability when it comes to neurodivergence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because we actually had someone come on, especially around safety the other a few months ago now, that they actually didn't identify. They identified as neurodivergent but they didn't identify as having a disability, if that makes sense, and it's sort of like this is where this is and so say, when someone is going into university, they don't feel disabled, but they might be neurodivergent, so they don't think I need to tick that box type of thing or state, hey, I need help, you know yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot of different things you can sort of dissect in that. So, first of all, if you were to ask me, the title disability officer is just a title, that is, is meant to describe this white variety of responsibilities rather than saying disabled. Um, we view disability and we really advocate for viewing disability as and this is a controversial opinion, this is controversial, it's coming from me um that essentially, disability is a cause of the environment you're in, not necessarily, not necessarily the capacities you have. So in a lot of ways and that's usually quite more relevant to neurodivergent folks which is the amount of disability you might feel, which is, by definition, the interruption of your day-to-day life or the difficulty that it might cause, is essentially directly tied to the environment you're part of, or in, or operating.
Speaker 2:Like a lack of, like a non-supportive environment, is it?
Speaker 3:A lack of support, a lack of.
Speaker 1:The wrong environment, so overstimulated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the wrong sort of sensory environment, but even your own sort of understanding and accommodation of yourself, because at the end of the day, we do a lot of this oh I'm meant to do this or I should be doing that and that is something that we get trained to think, because we compare ourselves to what we see and we say, oh, we should be functioning like that. And then we sort of think to ourselves, oh, I need to function like that. I should tell myself I need to function like that, and et cetera.
Speaker 3:And it becomes this cycle of not even accommodating for yourself, which is one of the reasons that you get that depression and anxiety later on, as you can't really understand why you can't do what people are meant to be doing, and you think that everyone is doing fine, so why can't you so?
Speaker 1:yeah, it is interesting, because I think a big thing as well is that especially people say, coming into higher ed, they may not even know what supports they need, so they might say, hey, I'm this. And then people go, well, what do you need? And it's like, well, I don't know. That's why I'm asking. You know what I mean. This is a big thing I'm coming against as well yeah, no, we don't have everyone that is so.
Speaker 3:For instance, one of the very first events that we did, uh, was what we call the neurodivergent check-in. So I think it was week one or two of the semester where we collaborated with student services at the university and there Tim, lina and myself we created a bit of like a presentation talking about things to watch out for or some advice around university, just a general check-in of how is the beginning going for you, and we were very, very clear, very explicit in telling people you do not have to have ticked yes to this disability or um, answered yes here. You can just turn up if you think you're going to benefit from it, because people sort of. So here's my I guess my interpretation of it.
Speaker 3:Students pay a services and amenities fee. Right, every student does. It's just mandatory. Most of the budgeting that goes around those student life and student life activities or any of those sort of events and things that you might be interested outside of that education learning environment is often funded by those mandatory fees. I'm not gonna go and say to someone that has literally paid those fees as well, just like anyone else has, and be like, oh, prove it to me and, on the contrary, say that to people. What does that say about us and wanting to just be normalized?
Speaker 3:yeah as so I don't technically personally think that my um, adhd and autism are necessarily disabling. I will find them disabling at times where it affects my ability to deal with things and I get overwhelmed. That's the only time it's actually disabling, but other times, like I, wouldn't give it up, I wouldn't change who I am essentially it'd be weird, wouldn't it? It would be weird. What do I do now? I tell people like I would not give up that feeling of autistic joy like never.
Speaker 2:That feeling that you feel when you're super excited about something is just like oh great I um definitely, definitely not making recommendations with regards to whether or not anyone should take medication. It's different for different people. But, uh, adhd medication, I hated it because I experienced silence for the first time and I was like, but I've spent, you know, 40 years with my brain like yeah it was so strange and I really didn't like it.
Speaker 3:That's super interesting because I sort of got my ADHD diagnosis from taking Ritalin and ADHD medication for my so part of my medical stuff gives me chronic fatigue, like really bad fatigue, so I needed stuff to be able to actually do stuff during the day and think. And then I was talking to my psych and she's saying, hey, have you been finding yourself being a bit less impulsive when you've been taking this medication?
Speaker 3:and he was like wow yeah, the penny dropped and it's the funniest thing, is this I wait, is it meant to do that? Wait, hold on a second oh.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:And it's not necessarily that quiet, it was more so that ability to just do stuff more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's interesting. But you know, we often hear like, say, kanye West, for example, like that dude doesn't take his meds because it affects his creativity, type of thing, and sort of what you're saying, kev, it quietens your brain. I'm assuming that would be the same thing, correct? It was just so foreign.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I didn't you know, I didn't have any thoughts outside of like the one thought that. I was having and I was just like what's going on? This is so weird.
Speaker 3:It's that changing translation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I sort of love having the spontaneous thoughts. Don't get me wrong. There are times where I'm like, oh man, what was I thinking? Well man, what was I doing now? But then I love when it's like you know you're, you've got a problem you've got to solve. But then you've got it feels like you've just got a hundred thoughts running through your brain. It's like, hmm, which one do I pick that one? You know like picking fruit from a tree type of thing.
Speaker 3:See, that's because I've been a bit hyperactive. I feel like if you've got more of that inattentive tendencies, it gets a bit more less noticeable with that quiet and more so with the oh, it might be more now that I think of it. It might be actually built up with those inattentive traits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, crazy, crazy what we might do. We might go on to the next question here, but definitely an awesome conversation, but do you feel that there is a support gap when it comes to neurodivergent students in higher education?
Speaker 3:I would say so.
Speaker 3:I think that even just thinking about the kind of things that we see now, which, if you look back a few, probably two, three years ago, we're already seeing more than we saw then, I feel like, um, despite not knowing I was neurodivergent during my undergrad, which was about five years ago they still I wasn't aware of any programs or anything that was being sort of targeting that group of people, um, especially not in an empowering way.
Speaker 3:So, going back to that sort of checking that I mentioned, um, it was. It was an interesting experience because the effort was there, the people were there. It was a really, really lovely sort of getting together, but working on it made me realize that what we are missing here and what we're missing in in general, that gap essentially that I'm seeing is looking at neurodivergency as a disability, but a disabling disability, if that makes sense. And I'll clarify, because it's more so in that, how to watch out for the negative signs or how do I tell when I'm struggling, how can I tell when I'm about to hit a wall, how do I know if I'm about to burn, burn out, which are good things to be able to detect. But at the same time, focusing on that makes people focus on that.
Speaker 3:And then you end up with services that are targeted towards how to get help with anxiety and depression, how to get help with your stress around exams, how to sort of those reactionary services, almost when you're not looking at empowering people for just being who they are and approaching it from the very beginning, from the get-go.
Speaker 1:Because sorry to cut in there because, if we were to look at say and I get what you're talking about they're really trying to look at the negative parts of it, but we could potentially be looking at it from putting in other supports where those negatives aren't the thing, that would happen as much because people would maybe be dealing with it differently. Like, say, for example, maybe we're burning out because you know we're, we're stressed out because we've got so many exams, or assignments to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, and we're burning out because of that, but there's been no plan in place to help me structure how, when I need to start my assessments or anything like that. So that's why I'm burning out, because there's been nothing there.
Speaker 3:See, sometimes I'll focus on those, sometimes they'll focus on the practical tips and they can be actually so. When you see those administrative or the student services sort of programs, they can be quite good with those sort of structured how to come up with learning plans, but they don't quite have that how to embrace and even utilise the fact that your brain works different to your advantage and working with it rather than trying to use those more, I guess works for everyone. Usually sort of solutions and um yep, no, no go oh yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:I think, like when I was studying, what I found was at the beginning. It was and this is pretty much explaining my brain it was a mess. Do you know what I mean? I'm like I had no structure. I was, you know, I didn't know when to start an assignment. I'd sort of leave it for a while because I'm like, oh, I've got weeks, you know. But towards the end I sort of came up with a lot of strategies to be able to cope with it a lot better, because I'd been through so much at that point. But I thought to myself why aren't we trying to help people get those strategies earlier than trying to come in with a big mess and then be really great towards the end? But think how more effective we could be if those strategies were in place to start with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's really talking about that. Really, what you mentioned is that even earlier diagnosis is not waiting for that moment where things are about to explode to you know.
Speaker 1:Deal with it and acknowledge it, but actually say hey, you, To avoid this from happening. Why don't we look at this?
Speaker 3:And it's even more than that because when you look at neurodivergent folks and I'm talking specifically, like in this case, I'm talking about neurodiversity in the realm of ADHD and autism, because that's my experience, but I do know that for some people, neurodiversity in the realm of ADHD and autism, because that's my experience, but I do know that for some people neurodiversity can be quite different. But speaking from that side of it, I think that my way of learning and the way I approach things as well would be quite different. And sometimes trying to follow those more general, aimed at holistic sort of brains just doesn't work for me and it can create that frustration which goes back to that internal frustration and understanding why your brain works the way it does, why you think the way you do and how to actually use that to your advantage because, I'm like.
Speaker 3:I'm a firm believer in neurodivergent folks like ADHD, autism. If you use your strengths which I think most folks with autism will agree, there's something that you're usually there's the things you're really good at and the things you're really quite not liking and not great at.
Speaker 1:Oh, shit yeah.
Speaker 3:And if you're not, then you might actually have a much nicer time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and probably knowing what those are is so important and having others know what that is as well is probably important. So, for example, let's say, part of an assessment may be requiring you to step into doing something that is fully against your weaknesses. There you're going to fully struggle.
Speaker 2:But if you've got a learning organization behind you that understands that and can potentially put reasonable adjustments into place or change that, that could make that assessment a lot easier for you sorry I'll just quickly, um, you know you've spoken a lot will on previous episodes about how in, for instance, a working environment that support, that is supportive of neurodiversity, you shouldn't even have to identify things necessarily, because there will be options available to you to work at your full capacity.
Speaker 1:Um, I think you know education needs a bit of that too oh yeah, it's definitely a work in progress and, like I will say this right, like what I see is that you know there are lots of people who have a really good heart and they're really trying their best to support neurodivergent people. But when you don't, when you're not neurodivergent yourself or you've got no training about it or anything like that, it can be so difficult, um, to be able to give that right thing across. Now, a hard thing as well, especially as a neurodivergent person and Sol, I'm assuming you may have come across this. When you're trying to deal with a person who's supporting you and doesn't get what it is you're struggling with, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. You know what I mean, and this is where it can make it even worse, just do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and their heart might be in the right place, but it can sometimes even make it worse. And this is where I think you know we're talking about the gap. These are these gaps. What can we do to fill those? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll tell you something that I realized very early on when I started my master's degree is especially in the field that I'm hoping to go into, which is social work. I realized that I'm either going to acknowledge the fact that neurodivergent and learn to work with it and try not to fight it as much as I can, or I'm going to burn out Because that constant masking and having to be in an environment that would not necessarily cater for my needs or, you know, just be beyond what my brain wants to handle at that moment or can handle at that moment will be enough to burn someone out. And you see those situations.
Speaker 3:You see people burning out in corporate because those corporate jobs are just not meant for their body and their brain and the way they work, and it was actually one of the very things that led us to wanting to do that panel that, john, you were on, which is talking about that. First of all, how can we do it better? But also showing people that being who they are is not a weakness. Calling it a disability could be a social term. It doesn't have to be something that reflects on you as a person at all, especially when it comes to neurodivergence, because there are ways it can absolutely shine. And um, hearing that from other people, going from that empowerment, sort of shifting narrative almost, is what I'm really hoping to. Um, sort of get out there and really make people feel that, because I hear too many times 18, 19, 20 year olds coming to me and saying, yeah, well, I can't do this or there's no way, and it's just yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Can I just say, though, on that panel, the kindness and understanding in that room was really something I don't know if you can tell, but I was getting teary when I was giving a couple of answers because I was just like I'd never seen anything like this before and it made me so happy to see it happening in a university.
Speaker 3:It's that feeling that you get from feeling understood or just feeling accepted. You know that feeling when you feel really overwhelmed even it could be warrior course study or anything like that and then you figure out a way to deal with it and you go go like like that feeling of relief that is what I'm hoping to replicate for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is getting better. Like when I first got into neurodiversity I'd be going into dni events and no one would know what neurodiversity was and I'd be there. I'd talk about rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria and like working to my weaknesses and I said this on someone's podcast the other week that when you're back then I was having to work to my weaknesses to really try and get across what we were trying to be working towards. Back then it was more about workplace neurodiversity, but it was difficult. But now we are starting to see change and I think it is coming back to you know, a lot of neurodivergent people are feeling a lot more comfortable being open about that. People are going hang on, we need to start putting things into place. People are seeing the strengths and all that because a few months ago now, I got invited to a um a thing with the water industry australian waters, I think it's called Australian Water Association, so AWA or something down here in Sydney and they had an actual workshop about how can they incorporate more neurodivergent people into the water industry and I was like it was like this is cool, this is what we need to see.
Speaker 1:Can other industries replicate that? It was like this is cool, this is what we need to see. Can other industries replicate that? So you know doing these things. Hopefully it's going to open the book to other organisations, all of that trying to replicate that. Universities, you know, colleges, vet colleges, all that type of stuff to be able to really grow. But we do still have a bit of a way to go.
Speaker 3:Well, I think what you said before is oh, sorry.
Speaker 1:No, you go, no, you go.
Speaker 3:It's just what you said before, which is, you need to have people with the actual experience of being a real divergent involved in designing those services and delivering those services, because it makes a difference it comes from. Oh, this is what I think you're going to experience and to. I'm experiencing this too.
Speaker 2:It's funny that it's almost like representation matters or something.
Speaker 1:But can I say on that right, yes, we do, but we need to. So those people need to listen to the neurodivergent voices, because the biggest thing I come up against a lot of the time and it's like, look, we need. And, like I said, there's so many people with a good heart out there who really want to help create change and I love these people. Thank you so much. But sometimes what I'm seeing is that those people aren't taking in everything that the neurodiversity community is saying and it's like they're trying to do something and it's like what the hell are you doing? You've got to take this process. Why haven't you taken that process? And then they'll turn around to you when it doesn't work and go what the hell happened? And it's like what?
Speaker 3:did.
Speaker 1:I tell yeah exactly, and that's the biggest thing I'm finding. Sometimes people are just not listening and going oh gee, maybe I should start listening to what's going on instead of gee, we've got to make this happen, type of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they read about it and they maybe know a neurodivergent person and think they have the idea, without actually doing all or they've done certain things in the past and that's worked.
Speaker 1:But you know um? Has it worked? Do you know what I mean? How do you know that it's worked? Do you know what I mean? How do you know that it's worked? Do you know what I mean? And then, if you've got like proper professionals and people who understand this environment coming in and saying hang on, no, this isn't right. Maybe those past programs didn't work or whatever that was, if that makes sense. But I tell you what why do you think this gap exists? You know we've spoken about it. Why do you think that gap exists? But why? You know we've spoken about it. Why do you think that gap exists?
Speaker 3:a change in narrative and just a change in any sort of form of practice is something that takes time. I mean, if you're looking at what neurodiversity is as a term, it's very young, um, so it's autism relatively um adhd. A lot of our understanding of what being neurodiverse is really new.
Speaker 3:I mean, until recently we could not be both autistic and ADHD yeah, you know like it, just based on diagnosis, it was not technically possible, so that evolving understanding is also. I generally think that that if, like, evolution of understanding is happening also within the neurodivergent community itself and we are, as you said before, um, not always the best at knowing what is good for us it's a bit of a downfall, um, very much a downfall, and we're working on that too, and we're still wanting to say, actually, this is what we're needing to advocate for, or this is what actually helps, or really identifying where people are actually trying and where the intentions are good, and it's a process and it's just going to take time and it's headed in the right direction but, definitely still early stages.
Speaker 1:And it is baby steps, and I think I was creating a powerpoint uh, yesterday actually, because I'm doing a presentation for um, an organization called velg who do a lot of stuff, um in higher education, especially in the vocational education sector and um, I put it together and I just brain dumped so much information, right, and the thing is, yes, there is a lot of information and there is a lot of things that need to be in place to create, make neurodiversity fully neuro-inclusive in any organization, right, but it's not about going you need to meet all of these. It's about going okay, what have you already got in place and what can we start implementing slowly? Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, because it's like anything. It's like us as neurodivergent people. If we try to do everything at once, we will burn out. You know what I mean. So just taking those little baby steps is going to be better than not doing anything at all, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Well, it's also about the idea of I mean, I lost my train of thought. Very ADHD of me. No, it's all good.
Speaker 1:We won't judge you.
Speaker 3:We do this all the time I had something good and Well, what we might do?
Speaker 1:how about we go to the next question and, when it comes to you, just go. Hey look, this has come back to me. Oh, by the way. Okay, yeah, sweet. So what are some examples of where higher education needs to do better? Well, yeah, we sort of covered that a little bit before right A little bit.
Speaker 3:I had this interesting chat today to some higher-ups at the university that are actually looking at some construction-related stuff and I found myself explaining to them the difference between like the physical disability and having a disability and accommodating for disabilities, for instance, a disability room, and then also looking at the functional capacities and needs of people where it comes to either hidden disabilities, sensory needs and things like that, and why it's not the same thing.
Speaker 3:And there's still a lot of this misunderstanding around sensory needs are a luxury, or those spaces where the temperature is controllable and you have the backrest that is the most comfortable to you, or etc. Is optional and it's a luxury, and people don't quite understand that sensory disorders are very much real, for instance, if we're talking about this example. So looking at, not imposing their own definition of what a disability is or what being neurodivergent is, and going to the community and saying, hey, like what do you guys need? And I feel like it's something that we are getting a little bit more of. Thankfully, I got the opportunity to do a bit of that advocacy today, but that's one of the reasons that certain unions or having certain representatives or just they've experienced like people that are, you know, living and breathing. What they're trying to cater for, at least to give the input of, it's still something that we're very much advocating for.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, that's cool, that's cool, that's cool. So what might be some steps a higher education provider should have in place?
Speaker 3:Sorry, repeat that.
Speaker 1:I really didn't say that well, did I? So what might be some steps a higher education provider should have in place? So, for example, let's say I'm a new student, what should be in place to help me have the best experience possible? So you know, do we have sensory environments or do we have what are?
Speaker 3:your thoughts especially from what you can, you've seen from your side of things I guess from my side of things, um, it would be thinking about that, those sensory needs, those needs that are both those you know, physical accessibility, um, and having just an easier time to those functional needs. It gets pretty interesting because it's really thinking about bringing people to that best capacity that you can bring them to and seeing how you can accommodate for that, hopefully which is not always the case, but then like possible. But then that's really what we aim to do when we do accommodations or like when we take some steps to like help people out is bringing them to like the best version of them that they can be and hopefully within the capacities of that organization. And when it comes to universities, it's really really wide Like there is very much a need to have systems in place that allow people to get the adjustments they need and to get the accommodations they need on a more academic or teaching level. That's one that we constantly fight for, especially recognition of neurodivergent needs, without having to go through that like three thousand um dollar sort of assessment that the university sometimes requires you to get those adjustments.
Speaker 3:Um, it's recognizing the use of assistive technology in ways that people might use them and having to sort of um catch up with the times, rather than just think any use of technology is inherently plagiarism We've had quite a bit of that as well or they just outright ban it when it's something people quite just need. And just that, just keeping that policy and procedures open, mind almost to being open to changing and amending practices, because otherwise, if you know exactly like you said, they created the policy and then who gave feedback, how do you know if it's actually working? Um, so being able to provide that feedback and saying, hey, this is something we need to change something we should make easier.
Speaker 3:We have that all the time. We are at the moment talking to the university about a good couple of different things, of just even amending procedures, of how is someone allowed to do something just to make everyone's life easier without problem?
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, that's cool, that's cool, that's cool. So you know, moving on from from that, what are a few examples of ideas you've advocated for in your role? Have we kind of covered this?
Speaker 3:yeah, we sort of yeah um, yeah, very much that like um empowerment perspective and sort of strength-based approach, if you want to call it, when it comes to being neurodivergent and saying, oh, these are the ways I can thrive, rather than think about the ways you you might fail or you might not. Expectations that there are. Yeah, um, it's very much something that I try to advocate for and also support people in sort of achieving that, because even today I had to try to convince someone that it's um, okay to accommodate for your needs, even though you are absolutely, I believe you are capable of doing what you think you already set out to have without those accommodations. There's no reason you shouldn't have them. You know, if they're there yeah, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I think, yeah, accommodations, uh, you know, for me it's been a game changer, not just in study, but life. You know, I'm I was only. I actually wrote an article about this today and it's, it's just, it's. It makes it easier for the people around me as well, you know, because back in the day, say like, I wrote a I don't know did an assignment, I would have to wait for my mum to get home or whatever, or my wife or whatever it was, and then they would have to read over a 5,000-word assignment, and you know that's crap. Do you know what I mean? Now I'm able to use certain tools that can do that for me. I feel more independent, you know, and that gives me more confidence to want to be able to could be more studied.
Speaker 3:To express yourself as well.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 3:To express yourself as well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is because I can now go oh look, how can I explain something? Because, like being dyslexic, it can be sometimes hard to get from what's here onto paper and make it sound right. But now I can put what's in here onto paper it might not sound right and I can say, can you make this sound proper? And I'll read it back. Oh my god, that sounds brilliant yeah yeah yeah yeah, you know, and it, it gives you, it's given me, I would say, a whole new lease of life, because I actually just I feel more independent I actually just just discovered last week.
Speaker 2:So obviously, with the autism, I love data and sheets and I can see patterns in them that other people can't and do my job really well. But with the implementation of stuff I have to write a lot of data for the back end of websites and that's just the ADHD in me. It goes oh, you know, and I'll put the task on and stuff.
Speaker 2:But then I figured out the right prompt and I was like hey can you please write this with this many characters, including these words, and then boom, 30 seconds. I'm like that would have taken me four hours. That's amazing.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I checked it all and it was great.
Speaker 3:See, that's actually another thing I advocate for which sorry, I cut you off. You continue and then I'll talk.
Speaker 2:advocate for which yeah, sorry, I cut you off, you continue, and then I'll talk. No, no, you go, you go. That's a real world example of of assisted technology, you know, helping me um uh accommodate certain um issues that I might have because of my adhd tell me if you disagree.
Speaker 3:But, um, one of the things I've been advocating for is really appreciating people's work for the quality of the work, not necessarily the amount of time they spend on it or the amount of perceived time they've spent on it. Like, moving away from that. I've worked here all day, 12 hours. I've woke up to actually looking at the quality of the work and saying, wow, that's great and efficient, great and efficient. Um, and judging people's I guess not even judging people just looking at people's work for what it is rather than how they necessarily got there. Of course, keeping it ethical and correct and all that, but at the same time, moving away from that culture of hard working lot of time versus hard work and it goes good work well to tell you the truth well, can I just say, like back in the day I would have to spend more time on something because I'm neurodivergent and I'd struggle with things.
Speaker 1:I'm now able to get more done, which helps me to be better. Do more, yeah, do more yeah, and be more effective and get across what I've always struggled to get across and all of that type of stuff. But no, hey, food on John. We've got one more question, but I think we've run out of time. We've really Sorry.
Speaker 1:No, no, no no no, no, no, sorry, sorry, but um, I think we might, um, we might wrap it up there, because we've gone over some really um great stuff there and, uh, this has been really when we find that a chat, when we've got questions left over. You know that it's been a really good chat and it's been really great talking to you today, hearing your experience, and especially a later diagnosed person as well. So thank you so much for sharing your experience.
Speaker 3:Thank you for letting me share it.
Speaker 1:No, no, not a problem. This is what it's all about, and I think so many of our listeners are similar to yourself, so I think it is really important to hear about that. But before you do, before we do close that off and everything, where can people connect with you, find out more about your work? I saw you connected with me on LinkedIn today. Thank you so much thank you.
Speaker 3:I'm not actually super often on LinkedIn, I'm more so an Instagram person. Okay, if you want more of those aesthetic autism moments, but generally a lot of my work is going to be through UQ Disabilities, so the UQ Union Disabilities has its own page, socials. You'll find us on Discord as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, cool. So check you out there and hit um, hit you up photo on john. Did you have anything else you wanted to say before we close off today?
Speaker 2:uh, no, just again. Thank you. So that was that was really cool.
Speaker 3:Appreciate you came on I don't actually know how many or if like watching, so just thank you for whoever was watching it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, no, well it's hard to sort of tell, because we got people through our facebook channel who will be watching um. We'll also have people through our linkedin and youtube pages, also through our twitch pages. Then we've got the podcast, which will come out in a matter of about an hour um, so there's probably a fair few people watching you or listening, depending what they're, what they choose to do, but no look so thank you um yeah no, all over the place because I'm tired.
Speaker 2:No, no it's honestly it was. It was so encouraging meeting you and seeing the event and knowing that the younger generation are going to have that little bit, not easier, but they're going to have the support that they need.
Speaker 3:Really hope so.
Speaker 1:No, no, thank you so much. Thank you so much, but for all of our listeners out there, if you haven't already done so, please connect with Sol if you want, and if you haven't already done so, please connect with Sol if you want. And if you haven't already done so, please connect to all of our social media platforms. My name's Will Wheeler, this is my co-host, photon John, and this is NeuroDivergent Mates. Until next time, yeah.