Neurodivergent Mates
Stepping Outside Of Your Comfort Zone - Pros, Cons & Tips
As neurodivergent individuals, we frequently find ourselves stepping outside our comfort zones, doing things that clash with our natural inclinations.
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we explore the reasons why we might need to venture beyond our comfort zones. We discuss our personal experiences and strategies for coping with these challenges as neurodivergent people.
1. How life can pull neurodivergent people outside of their comfort zone
2. Ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be difficult
3. Ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be beneficial
4. Are there specific tools we can use/have used to cope with having to be outside our comfort zone?
5. How could society create more supportive environments for us to try new things?
6. What are some tips we could give our friend groups to support us in trying new things?
7. What advice can we give to other neurodivergent individuals who are hesitant to step outside of their comfort zones?
8. What should neurodivergent individuals be careful about when it comes to stepping outside of their comfort zone?
9. How has your comfort zone changed over time?
10. Have we noticed any changes or personal growth as a result of stepping outside of our comfort zone?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#neurodiversity #comfortzone #podcast
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As neurodivergent individuals, we frequently find ourselves stepping outside our comfort zones, doing things that clash with our natural inclinations.
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we explore the reasons why we might need to venture beyond our comfort zones. We discuss our personal experiences and strategies for coping with these challenges as neurodivergent people.
1. How life can pull neurodivergent people outside of their comfort zone
2. Ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be difficult
3. Ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be beneficial
4. Are there specific tools we can use/have used to cope with having to be outside our comfort zone?
5. How could society create more supportive environments for us to try new things?
6. What are some tips we could give our friend groups to support us in trying new things?
7. What advice can we give to other neurodivergent individuals who are hesitant to step outside of their comfort zones?
8. What should neurodivergent individuals be careful about when it comes to stepping outside of their comfort zone?
9. How has your comfort zone changed over time?
10. Have we noticed any changes or personal growth as a result of stepping outside of our comfort zone?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#neurodiversity #comfortzone #podcast
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of NeuroDivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler. Join with my main man, photon John Kev. What's going on, brother? I?
Speaker 2:don't work it hard today, very hard.
Speaker 1:Working hard mate. Oh, 5.30 am you're up? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow man, how are you feeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, I got a lot done, heaps done, so that's good. Yeah, cool, you're gonna grab that adhd flow when it's adhd flow, when it's happening, you know yeah, true, I gotta admit I haven't done too many 5 30 starts in a while.
Speaker 1:It's definitely. I'm definitely more of a night owl, like I'll do stuff in my. So I have like morning depression so I'll wake up and I'll feel depressed. So it's hard to get into the swing of things. So a lot, you know, my best times are in the evening and stuff like that. So that's where I get a lot of my, I suppose, motivation, all of that type of stuff. But it's cool, it's cool. How was your weekend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, saw some friends bands Adjusting to seeing bands without being in one. That's weird. How about you? Oh cool.
Speaker 1:Just went for a drive on Sunday. Saturday, it was a bit miserable and crap, a bit cold, so, no, I went for a drive. Hadn't been sort of on a drive in a while, so it was just good to get out. It was a beautiful day, went down to the beach, had something to eat and, yeah, really enjoyed ourselves. So yeah, but really cool. But anyway, we should get stuck into this.
Speaker 1:So, um, today what we're going to be covering is stepping outside of your comfort zone pros, cons and tips. We have no guests today, so it's going to be photo on john and myself. You're ready for for this photo on john? I reckon we can do it. I reckon we can do it too, man, I reckon we can do that. But we definitely got some really cool guests coming up. After this, we thought we might just do an episode. We enjoy doing episodes when it's just us. So, um, and it sort of tests us to see if we're on ball, on point type of thing, with, um, our knowledge and if we're learning from our guests yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So what we might do just before we start, if you haven't already done so, this is your first time listening to us. Please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on tiktok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn. Also, too, if you're listening to this via podcast, you can check us out wherever you find your podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts, so it could be Spotify, itunes, whatever that is. Also, too, if you are listening from there, please rate this show, give us a review, and that would be really cool. Also, too, if you're listening to this via YouTube, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe as well. Ferdon John, did you have anything else you wanted to add on to that, my friend?
Speaker 2:I'm just glad I don't have to memorise that spiel. Yeah man.
Speaker 1:I've got to admit it's coming to me, it's coming to me yay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got to be on path these days, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's sometimes hard just to remember the little things and then you get off and then you're like, oh, I should have said that you know, but all good. Also, too, if you've got any questions for us while we're on the live stream, like we are now, and I think we've actually got someone coming through, ah, so is it? How do you pronounce that photon? John Aaron, aaron, aaron Aaron, aaron ZL C Aaron Aaron Z L Cullin Cullin. I think I'm sorry if I didn't pronounce that correctly, but all the way from New Orleans. Yeah, awesome, going international, I love it Actually we'll put it up on the screen.
Speaker 1:There we go, awesome, awesome. Thank you so much for and I hope you're loving the podcast, by the way. So you know our international community, thank you so much there. But we should really get stuck into this. You know, I think a big thing with this before we get stuck into the questions, before we get stuck into the questions, all of that, you know, I think, when we were sort of sitting down talking about what sort of what should we talk about in this podcast, I said to you. I said what about stepping outside of your comfort zone?
Speaker 1:And I think a big thing that we really wanted to get across is that, you know, being neurodivergent, it's not about stepping outside of your comfort zone and then you're going to be uh, yeah, that's not the problem. It's not us in our comfort zone, right? It's not like come on, kev, if you just step outside of your comfort zone, mate, you won't be autistic anymore. You know, that's not what we're sort of coming across, as I think the biggest thing in this podcast and what we want to talk about today is especially being neurodivergent. There's certain times when we're put into certain situations where we have no other alternative but to step outside of our comfort zone. So maybe that is studying a new job or maybe that is um, attending a certain event or going to the shopping center or whatever that might be. And I think what we really wanted to do was, you know, talk about, you know what we do in those type of situations, where we've been in those types of situations, and maybe some of the effects that's had on us on us and probably also, too, what some of the you know things are that we do to help us and all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 1:So we might as well get this show on the road. What do you reckon? Foto and John let's do it All right, cool, so let's start with this here. So how life can pull neurodivergent people outside of their comfort zone. So I've spoken a little bit on this. What are your thoughts around this vote on John?
Speaker 2:You know it's funny, there's always a list of situations you can think of depending on your neurodivergence. But even then it can depend on the day and it can depend on where you're at with your mental health at the time. And I saw a cool thing the other day it was talking about, you know, just speaking from my own perspective. But autism is a spectrum and that means that it doesn't mean everyone's a little bit autistic. It means that different people experience different symptoms differently and, depending on the day of the week, you might be experiencing one of those symptoms more intensely or less intensely, which is where I think a lot of neurotypical people get confused about trying to understand you know what it means for us.
Speaker 2:So you know, some days I can't wait to go out shopping, and then other days the idea of leaving the house just fills me with dread, you know yeah totally.
Speaker 2:So it can really depend on your mood quite a bit, um and then, but that that isn't always, you know, conducive to what you might need, the way you might need to interact with society to be not successful in like a business sense although that too but just in life, you know what I mean to have a social life, or to get your shopping done, or to do all that kind of stuff. Um, you might be okay with something one day and you might plan to do it a couple of days later because you're feeling good about it then and then that day we're hosting, you're actually not feeling good um, how have you been with your career?
Speaker 1:out of curiosity, because I think sometimes yeah, you go no, you go well, I suppose the biggest thing I see is that when we have um life in general and when I mean life in general I mean, like, um, a private life when we're going to the shops, when we're catching with friends, what restaurants we choose to go to, all of that type of stuff you sort of really do have a bit of a say in all of that. If that makes sense, we can be like hey look, I'm not going to go, I'm not going to go to the shops until this time, because I know there won't be as many people there or I'm, or, um, I want to go to this bar, because the reason I like going to this bar is because I know it's chilled and there's no music and so forth like that. So you've got a lot of options there. But sometimes, when it comes to our careers, that's where it can be a little bit tricky, you know, because maybe we've been put into certain situations where we're not being able to perform to our strengths, you know. So, for example, for me, especially when I'm like teaching or training or whatever I'm doing, I'm presenting, and I need a whiteboard or something like that.
Speaker 1:If I'm having to like write things up on the board. My spelling is shocking, man, you know. So I'm definitely in my A bit of anxiety about that. Look, I think when I was younger I did, but I own it now. Do you know what I mean? So a lot of the time I'll go into certain situations and I'll be like, look, I'm dyslexic, I suck at spelling. Writing on the board definitely doesn't work for me, but sometimes I find, when I'm teaching, being able to write certain things or you know, I don't know draw pictures or whatever that looks like, that really can help me to be able to describe exactly what's happening, type of thing. So it can be effective. I think just you've got to learn how that works for you, if that makes sense yeah, yeah, um, with my career.
Speaker 2:It was um. It's not that I don't like routine because I'm autistic, you know. But I also don't like routine because I'm ADHD, but also because I'm autistic, I, I like my routine. Uh, I don't like routine because I'm autistic, you know. But I also don't like routine because I'm ADHD, but also because I'm autistic, I like my routine. I don't necessarily function well under an imposed routine, so Monday to Friday nine to five just did not work for me and I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2:But you know, I tried really hard and I worked for a bunch of marketing agencies for a long time and pushed myself to do that nine-to-five thing. But there were some days where I just couldn't do it. I was so burnt out and I would have a week off. You know and I'm trying to explain to them I really want the job. I don't want to be doing this to you, but something about this workplace just is not doing it for me. Clicking yeah.
Speaker 2:Whereas, you know, when I started working for myself and doing things the way a, the way that I knew they need to be done in my job, so I just had ideas outside of the framework of the red tape that you were supposed to work in at the agency.
Speaker 2:I was in and I wasn't allowed to explore those, so I was sort of being forced to do things the way that I didn't want. So, one doing that which all worked, by the way, exactly the way that I thought and to my work hours, my time working for myself, and for the last eight years, it's the only way I can personally work, um, because and even then, you know, like I said before, I will plan to do xyz on wednesday, thursday, friday, but I might get to wednesday, thursday, friday, and it's a bit of a story that way, but I'm free to come up with, you know, contingency plans for things like that, and and work around my mental health and not push myself into the ground doing all of that. But yeah, I, you know the. The thing is, though, I know starting your own business isn't an option for everyone, which is why we need more workplaces.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:A bit more understanding, you know of neurodivergent people and what you can and can't push them to do without, like I said, pushing them into the ground.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's an interesting thing because and you know what was interesting I had to do some training a few weeks ago and some of it was talking about like what do you call it? Attending events. Right Now, I love attending events, you know. Preferably, I love attending events where I know I'm going to know people there, so I can at least, hey, kev, I'll build off from there, you know going to an event there, so I can at least, hey, kev, I'll build off from there, you know, going to an event where I know nobody.
Speaker 1:Now, that's, that's anxiety driven right there you know, um, so you know, but I've learned that that's what works for me, because I remember back in the day I'd be attending events and, um, I would be would you call it cold? Not cold calling, but just going there knowing nobody at all, and it was hard and I I didn't realize that. You know, especially networking events. You can definitely go in there and not know anyone and build that. But for me it works a lot better when I know people there, you know, because you're able to see other people and start conversations and build off from that type of thing. But also, too, that can depend on the what do you call it? Some of the sectors as well. I've been in some sectors. I won't name them and man clicky as like yeah yeah, where others are like embracing.
Speaker 1:It's so strange how some sectors work and some, how some don't.
Speaker 2:It's interesting particularly corporate sectors. Uh, so um they. I feel like that 20, 30 years behind the rest of the world where bullying is so accepted. So give me an example.
Speaker 1:Give me an example because I've been to some really great corporate events.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but you know there's many. I think the corporate world is really behind the April compared to your average workplace on, you know, encouraging and equal opportunity and that kind of stuff for people with differences.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I have to disagree because I have been with some really good ones that have been very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, when you've been with as many as I have, you would get a bit of a better understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know my 10 plus 10, 15 plus years in the corporate world. I never experienced anything. But you know just that corporate ladder mentality, the Wall Street kind of thing, you know. But mind you, we're in very different parts of the corporate world so it could be that. But, I know marketing at least is just full of. You know Silicon Valley sharks, yeah, but um, I know I know marketing at least is just full of, you know silicon valley shark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you probably would get that you get a lot of sharks and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So many people, yeah, because it's a sales background, yeah, and it's, I mean, statistically proven you know, it's like a past tend to thrive in a lot of corporate environments yeah, well, yeah, that's a good point, yeah yeah, yeah, but you know, so I felt it was strange because I would be so uniquely good at what I did in that world and these people would listen to me and be really into my ideas, but couldn't accommodate the way that I worked because I wasn't fitting that Silicon Valley corporate go-getter mold that they all want to take from.
Speaker 1:Google, you know. Well, do you know what? Right? It's interesting, like when I first and we're sort of probably going a bit off topic here, but who cares? Yeah, but, like you know what, when I first got into, say, networking, for example, you know, I thought networking was very much about, you know, building your networks and just going up and creating conversation. Everyone wants to talk to you and, um, it was so interesting.
Speaker 1:A lot of the people who I would follow, say on linkedin or whatever, who I thought were were, I suppose, came across as very inspiring people. It was interesting once I sort of met them that I was like these aren't my people. Do you know what I mean? Or I felt like I had to conform to their level or who they wanted me to be, and it wasn't. And I learned pretty quick that you know, to really succeed I needed to be myself and there's a lot of other people who are like me to be able to network with. It's just trying to find those people. That's definitely the hard part.
Speaker 1:Now it's actually interesting because I'm in talks with. I was only just speaking to my business partner about this today and I was talking about, like investors and stuff like that. Now the thing is I can go, do all these pitches to investors, all of that type of stuff, but at the end of the day I would prefer to have an investor who is behind our vision rather than just trying to get an investor because they've got the money and want to see that return on investment. Don't get me wrong. I want to still see that. I still want to achieve that for the investors, but I really want them to understand and get behind the vision if that makes sense and why we're doing what we're doing, type of thing um you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that finding that's interesting moral, moralistic, altruistic investment. Investment that just seems to have been forgotten for a long time. You can still do something good and make a profit. It doesn't have to be. It's not some sort of binary choice. You know what I mean. You can care very much about it but also think, oh hey, I can make money doing this. You know Well. I think, A lot of people tend to be one way or the other, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I think yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, if we're thinking about social impact and you know, doing stuff for good or that, right, you know, don't get me wrong there's a lot of people like, oh, you're trying to profit off it. It's like, yeah, hell, yeah, man, I want to profit, because when you can profit off something, you're able to actually do more, you're able to support whatever you're trying to do. You're able to do more. The more money you've got, the more you can do. So, yeah, hell, yeah. But I think, coming back to what we're talking about, when we're connecting with the right people, stepping outside of that comfort zone can sometimes be a little bit easier. Do you know what I mean? Like say, for example, kev. Like, let's say, I said, hey, look, there's a networking event down in sydney, fly down and I want you to attend it how would?
Speaker 1:you be feeling, I'm filled with dread just the idea of it. But let's say I said, Kev, come down to this networking event. I'm going to be there. I know half the people who are going to be there. I'll be able to introduce you to a lot of people. Just stick with me the whole time. Do you know what I mean? How would you feel then?
Speaker 2:Better.
Speaker 1:Still outside of your comfort zone but you know if that needed to happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly, you know. I remember we were talking a while back and you were like oh, maybe you could talk at something you know. And I was like I don't know about that. And you were like well, what if we sat down together and I interviewed you?
Speaker 1:And that's the way we would talk. And immediately I was like, yeah, that's fine, yeah, yeah, but can I just say as well, kev, you're now doing talks without me, am I correct?
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? I have no problem doing a panel. If you want me to get up and speak by myself, oh, okay, no, no, but, yeah, well, but there you go, there you go I think that's a perfect example of finding what works well for you.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? So the panel obviously works well for you. You've got but don't get me wrong, man I bet you still still felt quite nervous sitting on a panel, right?
Speaker 2:to begin with, but it was a panel. You know about this topic, so I was, you know. They gave me a stim toy, you know they. They asked everyone how the lights should be so that everyone would feel yeah you made sure the sensory environment was good and most people there were neurodivergent, so I felt pretty at ease.
Speaker 1:What if those people on the panel were world-leading doctors and stuff like that? Would you be?
Speaker 2:a bit nervous there. Yeah, then I'd have massive imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1:At that point it doesn't even feel like syndrome.
Speaker 2:It's like like I am just not meant to be well, to tell you the truth, man, that's.
Speaker 1:Those are the type of people I'm on panels with sometimes. Do you know what I mean, man? And yeah, it does feel like that, especially when they're going really in depth and you're thinking, holy crap, man, like their answers are way better than mine. How am I gonna make this sound better? You know what I mean, and it can definitely be like that, but you know it's um, it definitely comes with time, but let's get, let's move on. Damn man, we went well with that question, but ways of but ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be difficult.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've already covered this kind of thing. Yeah, we sort of covered that, didn't we? Maybe we can move on to the next one. Eh, so how about we look at this one ways that stepping outside your comfort zone can be beneficial? Do you want to go first, kev.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know I would. We had this conversation when we were coming up with these points. I would caution anyone who's neurodivergent to be comfortable and kind with themselves whenever they're thinking about doing something that is outside their comfort zone and be aware themselves whenever they're thinking about doing something that is outside their comfort zone and be aware of how they work and what they might need to make that a beneficial situation. However, with that said, you know there have been times although I didn't appreciate the way that I was forced outside my comfort zone, but where I've discovered that I was really good at certain way, that I was forced outside my comfort zone, but where I've discovered that I was really good at certain things that I never would have discovered if I hadn't tried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't endorse the way that I was forced through certain work situations, even though they knew that I was uncomfortable, but there have been other times that I learned from that and have entered outside my comfort zone in ways where I feel more secure and that I have support in place, where I'm just like, oh shit, this is something I've never done and I'm really good at it, you know, whether it be business or music, you know I did nothing but play guitar and sing in every band I was in for years and I had that guitar as like a security blanket right.
Speaker 2:And then I got asked to just sing for a band that was a band that I was in for five years Got A Fire and I was terrified at first, but then I tried that whole I've spoken about it on the podcast before exposure therapy thing. I was like all right, first gig, jump straight in the crowd. And so I jumped off the stage into the crowd, stayed there the whole set and then after a while discovered this whole new way of doing music. That was really satisfying and I started connecting with people musically in a way that I never had before.
Speaker 2:So there's just so much stuff you don't know sometimes, until you really push yourself.
Speaker 1:And I've seen you.
Speaker 2:I mean the years we've known each other, the amount of different ventures you've pushed into, you know, trying to find what would really make you feel good and work well for you before you eventually landed on, you know, neurodiversity Academy. But I always admired that you would just jump into anything that you felt might be a cool new venture. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And you're where you are now. Yeah, definitely nowhere near where I want to be, but it's getting there, but yeah, it is. But in saying that and I often say this, especially with me as an individual and I don't like to talk myself up, but I think this proves the point, that's why I do it yeah, the thing is is that I remember back when I was really trying to push neurodiversity in, like workplaces in diversity and inclusion settings, all of that, I would be going into diversity and inclusion because it's now called like D-E-N-I. So diversity, equity, no D, something like that. Yeah, yeah, so it's now called diversity, equity and inclusion yeah, that's what it's now called. So diversity, equity and inclusion yeah, that's what it's called now. So it used to be just called D&I back in the day, like diversity and inclusion. Now it's diversity, equity and inclusion type of thing.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that's a whole other podcast we could go into. But I remember like I first moved down to Sydney and you know, I knew a few people down this way, but I didn't know people in the big corporate sector, right, I didn't know. I'm thinking EY, deloitte, you know the big companies, right and I'm like, okay, I need to start putting myself in front of these people. Now I would be going into these events not knowing anyone. Back in those days now this is probably going back 10 years ago now no one was talking about neurodiversity. No one knew what neurodiversity was back then right.
Speaker 1:So I'm going into a room not knowing anyone, having to share I'm dyslexic because I didn't know I was ADHD at that point and then trying to sell them on neurodiversity and all this, that was definitely stepping outside of my comfort zone, Absolutely, man. And I remember like getting home like burnt out and all that, because it was almost like it was sort of scary, but what I found, it built my confidence. Now, the cool thing with that, that, um, now that was years ago. I'm now getting people coming to me saying like, yeah, man, if you need to speak to someone, go speak to will. You know what I mean? Like going like there's companies who are reputable companies in this field out there. They're going over them and coming straight to me because I'm seen as like the what's the word? I'm looking for, the man, if that's the, you know the go-to person, the go-to person, the technical term, yes, the man, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, if it wasn't for me really stepping outside of that comfort zone at the time. Now I can tell you right now there was times where I was doing that and it was very, not confronting but daunting. And I remember like catching the train back to where I was living in Sydney back at the time and feeling really gutted, almost. Do you know what I mean? Like almost well, I suppose. For me, I saw neurodiversity as this great thing, which I still do, and I see all of these great things about it, and when I would go into these places, I'd be so passionate about it and I'd be so passionate about it. And I think for me is that I was expecting people to go. Oh, wow, yeah, definitely need this. But it wasn't like that at all. It was sort of like took about 10 years to get to that point. Yeah, man, it was sort of like what, what? What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:and it was sort of like for that long man like yeah, well, the thing was it was sort of like it was sort and this was. This is a perfect example of what it was like. It was like no one cares. No one cares about neurodiversity, and this is what I tell a lot of people like the amount of doors I've had slammed in my face trying to really build that If I had a dollar for every time a door had been slammed in my face, man, I'd be one rich dude man. And when you keep getting that happening, man, it's so hard to remain motivated. You know so. But now you know it's sort of changing. I'm getting those people are now coming to me. I'm speaking at like pretty big conferences and these, these conferences are coming to me. It's not me applying for them, they're coming to me.
Speaker 2:You know I'm connecting some dots here, um, so we're seeing a pattern and it's that you know as neurodivergent people, when we have an idea, um, or a belief, or like a moral or ethical something that we want to hold to, we tend to believe that really strongly and I think those you know, listening to what you're saying and thinking about what I was saying those are the things that can make it worth it pushing yourself outside your comfort zone, if you really, because if you can end up in a place like I have, the way that I can work now, like you have with pushing for inclusion, it'll make all that worth it, so long as on the journey there, you remain self-aware and don't burn yourself out and work within your parameters and don't turn that effort into a negative, as long as you get there it's.
Speaker 2:You know you can, it'll be worth it.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the thing is especially for me. I was like, yeah, all right, this should only take me about six months. That was 10 years ago, you know what I mean, man. And it's sort of like I'm, you know, like, even with Neurodiversity Academy, like I'm getting starting to get some big wins happening which may help me to be able to work in it full time shortly. You know, fingers crossed right, and that's through blood, sweat and tears, definitely stepping outside of my comfort zone. But there's and this is the thing people don't see the struggle to get to that as well. Um, I definitely get the struggle and I admire the struggle now, but it's not easy. And when people like, oh, you know, someone might take your idea, it's like, good luck, good luck if you can take that idea, man, because you're not going to be able to build it the way we built it people have tried to build it.
Speaker 2:The way you built it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, totally, totally, totally. So you know. But you know, what really did help me, I think, was, yes, I was building my brand. I was trying to really get into the corporate world and surround myself around that and really make a mark in that space. But I was also building my, I suppose, brand or person I am within the neurodiversity community, so a lot of people were reaching out to me going, man, thank you so much for everything you're doing. Just seeing you talking about that, you know, helps me, you know. And I actually wrote a blog about this yesterday. Right, it's up on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah, I wrote about how I don't actually I'm not very good at taking compliments, like I love giving compliments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I wrote about how I don't actually I'm not very good at taking compliments, like I love giving compliments but, I feel like a bit of a dick when, like, someone gives me a compliment because it feels like, don't give me the compliment, man, you're the one. You know what I mean. But in saying that, when people would reach out to me and give me compliments, go. Thank you so much for what you're doing. You're doing an amazing job or whatever right that actually for me. It helped me to go. You know what? I'm not doing this for me. I'm not going into all of these events and getting shut down, um, because of me. I'm doing this because I'm doing it for these people, I'm doing it for a bigger cause here, type of thing, and that's what helped me to stick to it.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense yeah yeah, so yeah, there's. Yeah, it's about the people I'm trying to help, not about me. So yeah, I feel like a human punching bag, but you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's how it sort of rolls the old cliche about neurodivergent people not having empathy. It's a bunch of crap. I mean, I'm in one of the shakiest industries you can get. I'm in marketing right the devil and uh. I am all about genuinely wanting to help people, though I've never yeah, because I know I can do it. I have this skill right and I want to help and I I love it, you know, when I see someone succeed yeah, man, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think you know, when I first got into business, um it was it was hard to see other people succeeding and I'm being truthful, um, because I wanted to be where they were. You know, but I've really got into a point now where you know where I'm sort of like, you know what man I'm all for those people succeeding If they can do it that gives me the motivation and drive to do it as well, but there's no problem with having a bit of personal ambition.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:It's another thing. That's not binary. It's not either altruistic or personal. It can be a combination of both. You just got to get the combination right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes that can be the drive.
Speaker 2:you know, Sometimes I think that can be the drive, or maybe it's the spark that gets you started and then after a while you sort of shift more towards the wanting to help people side of things. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally, totally. But you know, moving on from that, so for you, are there specific tools that we can use? Slash have used to cope with having to be outside of our comfort zone.
Speaker 2:I will very badly repeat something.
Speaker 1:Alcohol alcohol.
Speaker 2:No, I will very badly. Well, you know, in moderate amounts in social situations, yes, otherwise it'll make that situation worse if you don't. Well, well, yeah, yeah, um. No, I will very badly repeat something that the person who diagnosed me taught me, which is, uh, you told me to draw a ladder and at each step of that ladder, just think about the things, um, that sit down and think about it, because a lot of time we just haven't thought about it. The things that you start to experience as you're approaching burnout, right, um, and and make that list, memorize that list, be aware of that list, learn to see those things when they start to happen, right, because going outside your company I mean sometimes just getting up and speaking to the person at the corner store while you get your coffee can be a draining experience.
Speaker 2:You know, going outside your comfort zone to try something really outside, um, is going to take more of that energy level yeah so learning your science is really important if you're going to do this stuff, because you know you could burn out a lot more quickly and for that reason, you might not see it coming at all, yeah, or or you know, you might not see it coming as far out. So those tools were really important for me in learning to do these things and and accepting that I have limitations. For a long time I didn't want to accept that.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay, I'm different, but I don't want to feel determined, disabled you know, but it wasn't until I started to understand that some things I just can't do or some things I just operate differently with that. I started to thrive because I learned to work with what I had and I wasn't trying to pretend to be something that I'm not operate differently with that. I started to thrive because I learned to work with what I had and I wasn't trying to pretend to be something that I'm not. So, yeah, anyway, come up with a list of things that trigger you towards burnout or, you know, a low mental health point. Have them in your brain, in the back of your mind, at all times, so when you're going to do something taxing, um, you, you, you know when to pull back and you know when to just chill.
Speaker 2:I like this week, um, I uh, sunday, yesterday, I didn't do anything. I stayed at home by myself in a dark room playing video games, right, because I knew that I had a lot of work today. I had to do the podcast today.
Speaker 2:I've got a lot of work to do tomorrow and I wouldn't, it wouldn't be, you know, even though I kind of, because I live across from the beach I wanted to go to the beach and have a beer, but I knew that if I did that I'd be socialized and then I'd get home, go to bed um and wake up without that downtime do you have people call you up going like kev, we're over at the pub, you should come across thankfully not now that I don't live in the city. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, my friend, my friends are keen to have me out for a beer, but not keen enough that they'll ask me to drive 40 minutes away to oh, okay, yeah yeah, yeah, well that's probably a good thing, right, but but you know what I?
Speaker 1:I found that when I moved so for people who come from Brisbane, I'm sure we'd be aware of this there's this whole like north side and Never eat, north side and south side of Brisbane like rivalry thing. Did you ever realise that, kev?
Speaker 2:Well, I live on the north side now. Yeah, yeah, but like people from the north side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I grew up on the south side as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I lived over the north.
Speaker 1:I did live a little bit over on the north side.
Speaker 2:And you just hear people talking about the south side.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh, I could never live on the north side, I could never, live on the south side.
Speaker 2:It's weird, it's weird.
Speaker 1:Well, what I was sort of getting at is that when I moved from the south side to north side, none of my friends would come and visit me. It was like ugh, you know what I mean, and there was sort of some goods and bads to that One. No one would ever come and visit me, you know, and I would go over to the south side sometimes. The good side to it was that no one ever come and visit me, you know, and I would go over to the south side sometimes.
Speaker 2:The good side to it was that no one ever came to visit me. The bad side to it was that no one ever came to visit me.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the thing well, yeah, if you look at it that way, but there was a few factors. There was a few factors. So back in those days I was still having big problems with drug and alcohol and stuff like that. So people not coming and visiting me was probably a good thing because it was getting me away from all that. But, um, it was also a bad thing because I wasn't socially interacting with people, because I didn't know anyone and as you get older, it's so difficult to meet new people. So I was just struggling. I was struggling and, yeah, I wanted to break away from a lot of my old life. But when you need, honestly, I suggest, if you're trying to like break away from your old life, old people who didn't really add value to your life definitely have some plan in place where you will be interacting and socialising with new people. If that's volunteering or whatever that might be, definitely start having some plan in place, you know, because it can get pretty lonely, but not a random thing, something that you're interested.
Speaker 1:Well, probably a regular yeah yeah, something that you yeah, don't just go in like, start picking up rubbish because you want to meet people, but you hate picking up rubbish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you're passionate about it, but also don't join a yacht club. If you're a musician, you know what I mean. Like you're probably not going to meet the kind of people that you would need to meet. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely that you know. Or, yeah, yeah, definitely that I think for me, the biggest thing for me was volunteering, See, so I did volunteering for an organisation called Roses and Roses. So what they would do every day, oh your sister does stuff with Roses, does she?
Speaker 1:Oh, cool, cool, yeah, rosie's is awesome. Shout out to any rosie's listeners if they're listening. You guys are awesome. But they are like the thing was um, I remember for me I was like, okay, well, what I want to, I want to try and keep myself busy on Saturday night so I'm away from having to go out and drink or having to go and hang out with people who are just going to drink, you know.
Speaker 1:So for me I was like, okay, well, why don't I do something that doesn't involve drinking and will keep me busy all night? So Rosie's goes out and gives out like coffees and food to the homeless, all that sets up like a van, and then you just sit there, hand out some coffees, do all that and then speak to everyone, you know, and do you know? Actually it's funny talking about sitting outside of your comfort zone. When I first did that, I was so nervous, and especially like serving like coffees to people, because it's like in my mind I was thinking it was like I was working at a coffee shop you know, customer service and all of that right and I'm thinking, oh man, you know, I don't want to people to abuse me and stuff like that. But, um, once I got into it I was like, hey, this is actually all right.
Speaker 1:How many? How many coffees you? How many things do you want? Mate two, two, yep. How many sugars? Yep, here you go. Mate. Do you want some milk? Yep, cool, there you go. And it was easy. But to start with man, I was packing it. But it helped me and I met lots of cool people and before that I thought that if you did volunteer work you were a wanker or something. But people who do volunteer work aren't wankers at all, they're rad. Sorry, man, you're on mute. You must have muted your mic, weird.
Speaker 2:Having been a person who lived on the street, we very much appreciated the work of people like Rosie Zinn. Yeah man yeah, it was cool. Yeah, man yeah.
Speaker 1:It was cool, like don't get me wrong, like I'll share a story. It was the funniest thing, Like, because what you find is, especially with homeless people, is that when you're seen as helping out the homeless community, right, they'll have your back. You know they'll have your back, man like, because they'll be like, oh man, like, say, if something kicks off, and all the homeless people just come out and be like, look, leave Will alone. He's like he's helping us and all that type of stuff. So you know, you don't need to be scared or anything like that.
Speaker 1:And I remember I was telling my wife, right, this is a funny story. I'm like when I first met her, I said, oh, you know, I do volunteer work on the weekends and it's really cool, it's really safe. You know, nothing ever happens. You know, we just hand out some stuff and there's never any problems. And I remember, like we pulled the van up because I said, said to my wife, I said, well, why don't you come? Um, she was my girlfriend back then and I said, why don't you come to volunteering with me? You might really enjoy it. And she's like, yeah, all right. And um, she did all the training, all that. Then she came to the um, the night and the first night right.
Speaker 1:Well, the first night we get there and some dude bottles, someone in the head and there's blood everywhere, man glass everywhere cops come there's fire brigade, police everywhere. My wife, well, my girlfriend, she's running around going. Oh my God, oh god, oh my god, you know, was that what you counted down as with.
Speaker 1:So, hey, you want to get married well, well, well, no, no, no, not that. But like, the funniest thing was I was sort of because, like, stuff does happen, but I don't get worried, and I was just there talking to all the other people like, hey, man, what's going on? And I'm seeing like the ambulance and all that going on, and because I'd seen all of that stuff before, I knew it was under control, I didn't think, oh man, I've got to run around. She's freaking out, yeah, she's freaking out, and I'm just there talking to, like, my homeless friends and all of that stuff, man. And it was hilarious, man. It wasn't hilarious that the guy got bottled in the head, and it was bad, no, no.
Speaker 1:But like just the way we both approached it Because, like for anyone, it was just weird because I had told her that, you know, nothing ever kicks off, but this night all of this stuff kicked off. It was hilarious. But anyway, that's a whole other story, but we should move on. We're actually getting through this pretty well. Hopefully everyone's enjoying the podcast. Got any questions there? Got any questions? Please shoot through um. Got any questions there? Got any questions, please? Um, shoot three. Now, how could society create more supportive environments for us to try new things? Do you think? Photon john?
Speaker 2:I. I think, when it comes to our personal lives as neurodivergent people, it's kind of um, I mean, it's not just on us. But, you know, speaking up for ourselves, creating spaces for ourselves, hanging out with each other, um, uh, is is a good way to hang. Trying new things with other people who also try struggle with new things is a great way to do it. You know, travengers we we interviewed agnes abelson months ago, um about young autistic kids being taken out to travel together, because they're all going to have at least somewhat similar experience of trying these new things and going these new places well, so.
Speaker 2:So there is that, but I but I think you know again also just broad societal education being better on neurodivergence will create. Create more spaces and understanding for us when we do go outside our normal spaces and try things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally Definitely, when people are mindful of that type of stuff is cool, and I think as well having friends who are mindful of that as well. So it might be like, hey, kev, let's go out. Um, uh, let's go out, we're going to like this cool um disco bar, um, down here. You know, and maybe you, you know for me the thought of and I'll give you an, I'll give you an example, and this is um, nothing against my sister-in-law, angie, we love you. This isn't. This isn't nothing against my sister-in-law, angie, we love you. This isn't nothing against you.
Speaker 1:But it was funny, right, like I remember, when my wife and I got married, we afterwards we said, because we just had a lunchtime lunch and all that, it was just a very small affair and all that, it was just a very small affair. And then afterwards we had our lunch, my parents had gone home, and then, angie, she had flown all the way from Ireland to come to the wedding and my brother and his wife were there and my sister-in-law's friend she had come. So my brother's wife's friend, she had come, and all that. And I remember, do you know that like bar, that's, like you know in like Queen Street Mall, how there's that hotel right across from the Maya Centre, right in the city, and it's got a pool and a bar, like right up I'm pretty sure Swim in that pool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So we were staying there right and at night there like it's chilled out, as you know, really cool place. So for me, sensory overload was perfect. You know it was awesome. But you know my sister-in-law she wanted to. You know she wanted to go out and go to a, a pub that was packed full of people and and all of that, with a live band playing and all of that.
Speaker 1:And I was just thinking, I thought okay let's do this because you know she wants to go out and you know we haven't seen her for a while. It would be great to hang out with her. So I went and did it. But man, it was just so. It just was so difficult for me, you know.
Speaker 2:The Lennon place or somewhere else in the area.
Speaker 1:So we left there. We left there and went to, like you know, but this the Lennon place, or somewhere else in the Netherlands, so we left there. We left there and went to, like you know, like what's the Irish bar in the city, there on the corner, Right across the road, irish Murphy's? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there, right, and you know I hate the place. To tell you the truth, it's just yeah, three levels of drunken, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm drunk and idiots man.
Speaker 1:But like, yeah, it was just not. So it would have been cool, like if people, when people understand, hey look, we're better off to go here because this is going to be better for this, these people or have a really cool pub that even it was owned by a bigger thing and wanted more people and had a cool sensory area.
Speaker 2:Well, it could be, do you? Know what right like maybe that's a bit much to ask, but I've god. I would love that you know yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:I think, as I'm older, I don't enjoy being in places with like fully loud live music and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:you know Well, I'm a musician, yeah, but I can tolerate that you know what it is is for me when I'm getting massive sensory overload at a loud club and there's a live band on and I don't mean no offence to cover bands, but just for me it doesn't fix my sensory issues. A band I'm watching music either that I know well because of a friend's band or whatever, and it's or big or it's just a band I haven't seen that I really like. It just drowns everything else out and I'm in this loud environment where I can focus on one thing.
Speaker 2:That's such a rare thing for me to be able to do that well, yeah, why I enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like if I was to go, say, go to a tool concert or I'm no corn or whoever right I know their songs I'd be able to get into it, I'd be able to focus on it, right. But when I'm going to other things and it's just noise, I'm just like, oh, my God.
Speaker 2:And they're just playing, you know, they're just playing fucking 500 miles by the pretend, sorry, yeah man, yeah man, that's a different situation, you know.
Speaker 1:I just can't do that shit anymore, man, I just can't do it, even thinking about it.
Speaker 2:I'm dropping a couple of F-bombs this episode. I'm dropping a couple of F-bombs this episode.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure what's wrong with me. You need to lay off the beers, my friend. You need to lay off the beers, mate. I'll throw you off the podcast, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, it's only two, my friend, it's only two.
Speaker 1:No, it's all good.
Speaker 2:It's all good. But I think the other thing was I've been going through a process of unmasking recently, selectively in certain situations, cause I don't even exactly know what that is for me. But I have a certain small select group of friends who I went out with for the first time a while back and I just said, look, prepare yourself, I'm just not gonna. I'm not gonna pussyfoot around anything. I'm going to be straight up about how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, what I'm okay with, what I'm not. I'm gonna try to be pleasant about it, but I'm just gonna be straight. Um, and one guy put it to me so well, he's like okay, so you just need us to listen and I went yes I need you to take what I say, say to you seriously, and you know, okay, okay, that's interesting right.
Speaker 1:If, say, if we were to go out right, what does you unmasking look like? That's what I'm interested in.
Speaker 2:You know, even if it is a situation like we're talking about, like a live music venue, I might like it for one second and then something about the next song that the band plays strikes me wrong in my ears. Or the lighting is off, or I buy a beer and the taste is strange, or someone I barely know, who met me at a gig once, is trying to be my absolute best friend in the world and they're in my ear. I'm just not going to pretend to be okay with those things. I'm like okay, I'm having issues right now. I need to get out of this room.
Speaker 1:And what do you do in that case? Like say I'm there issues right now, I need to get out of this room. And what do you do in that case? Like say I'm there, your mate, what do I need to do? It's just, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Literally. That happened that night. There was some guy. I'd met him at a gig one time and I didn't want to be rude. I mean I appreciate everyone who appreciates the music that I do, but some people who have seen you live and enjoyed your life, they he just some people who have seen you live and enjoyed your life. They think, because they enjoyed you and they're telling you they enjoyed you, that they're entitled to something about you, like your time or your attention, and it's like, well, maybe not, dude, like you know, yes, I like that we connected musically, but it doesn't mean that I need to sit here and have you yell in my ear all night when I have weird sensory issues. You know what I mean. So my friend literally just stepped in and distracted him and let me walk away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:Gave me that time to go in the corner and be by myself for a bit. Or you know, there was a night recently where I was just like I'm just I just I thought I wanted to do this, but I just I don't, and so my best friend and one other friend were just like, okay, we'll take them out, you guys have a good night.
Speaker 2:And we went somewhere else. That felt better and I felt like a bit of a burden almost at the same time, because I'm like, oh, you guys kind of have to support me, but I'm just navigating, figuring it out, and they're supporting me in figuring it out and I can figure out my own ways to deal with this. Do you know what I used to do?
Speaker 1:I used to just leave and not even tell my friends and I'd be like where'd you go? I'm like just had to leave. Man, they call it, and people, yeah, yeah, and people thought I was rude. But you know, sometimes I just was not feeling it and I didn't want to enter back into that environment and then have to do the whole like saying goodbye to everyone and all that. So it's easier just to leave.
Speaker 2:Well, when you're having a difficult time for whatever reason, and you try to be polite and say goodbye to everyone, you don't leave for another hour or two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally man, it's best to just cut and run. Yeah, yeah, it just depends on the situation type of thing just depends on the situation. But I tell you what man well I'm, I'm pretty sure we've um, we haven't covered all the questions, but we've covered a fair bit there. What do you reckon, photon john? What do you think of the show today?
Speaker 2:I think it was really good. I like having a chat, just us two, every now and then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good to just have a bit of a chat. It's not so formal, we're just sort of having a bit of a laugh. It sort of makes it feel like a bit of a different podcast when we just get on and talk.
Speaker 2:When it's just us two, it feels a little bit like therapy sometimes, ah therapy man, there you go.
Speaker 1:I wasn't thinking about like that. But I think it's just good to um just chat about stuff, because I suppose when we've got, you know, other people on the podcast, um, it's about them. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's pretty much about them a lot of the time. So we're really controlling the narrative of how it's sort of going, all that.
Speaker 2:But when it's just us, we're sort of just getting on here and um just speaking yeah, for any listeners who might not be aware, we'll be going for two and a bit about two and a half years now, I think, or something like that, maybe two.
Speaker 1:Into our third season. And sorry, sorry, we are probably about two episodes away from our 50th episode. We always forget, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we always forget.
Speaker 1:We're almost at our 50th. We're almost at our 50th episode.
Speaker 2:But for people who might not know the whole idea around, this was just trying to normalise conversation because Will and I were just having meetings about other stuff and we were having these conversations. We were like man, we should really turn this into a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. Well, yeah, and you know what, I'm often getting on calls with people and having really out there conversations. I'm like damn damn man, we should have and and even when, like for our listeners, like when sometimes we, before the podcast starts, we always start 15 minutes before the actual episode starts because we want to test things and then normally the guests we have, we start getting into conversations and I can tell you what a lot of those conversations are awesome and they're just not, they're not recorded, and a lot of the time we're like hang on hold your thought we've been having some really kick-ass conversations here.
Speaker 1:Let's save it for the podcast type of thing, which is quite sometimes after, as well, yeah, true, true, really. Sometimes we've stayed on like an hour after the podcast and kept on talking, but anyway, man, we should finish it there. What did you think of that one Photon John? I was pretty happy with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nice, nice.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, hell yeah. So for anyone who's been listening and you haven't already done so, make sure you subscribe to all of our social media platforms. Also, too, if you're listening to this on our podcasting platform, please subscribe to the podcast. Give it a thumbs up. Write a review Only if it's a positive review. Don't give us a crap review. If it's crap, don't listen. You know what I mean. Don't write us a crap review, Just don't listen. You know what I mean? Don't write us a crap review, Just don't listen.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, so that's probably the best bet, you know. But all good, Awesome, Awesome job there today. Photon John. Thank you for all of our listeners. We've actually got some really good guests coming up shortly. What was some of the guests you were thinking about getting on shortly? Go ahead on Sean.
Speaker 2:We have someone who's doing a lot of research into substance use in aged care for some yeah, that sounds cool and harm reduction.
Speaker 1:She's also sort of focusing on her journey as a neurodivergent person studying such an intense topic yeah, interesting interesting I've also got um, yeah, and another person I've actually been um I'm interested in getting on shortly is a sex worker within the ndis. Um, I think that would be a really interesting um topic to be talking about. So we're really interested in that. And I think we've got someone coming on about uh, women, adhd and leadership. Um, man, just so many people coming on.
Speaker 2:Neurodivergence, intersectionality with um, transgender like a whole yeah, hell, yeah man.
Speaker 1:So heaps of cool stuff. So make sure you subscribe and make sure you rate it. Please rate it. I can't say it anymore because that's what helps with the algorithm to get us out there more and get more listeners. So the more we've got, the the more people can listen. My name's Will Wheeler. Thank you so much for listening today here with my co-host, photon John, and this is NeuroDivergent Mates. Till next time.