Neurodivergent Mates
Neuro-Impact and the Importance of Neurodivergent Leadership - Maz Power
As the Neurodiversity community expands, it’s becoming clear how each individual’s contributions are crucial to their work.
Given this, neurodivergent leadership within the community is increasingly important, and having the right understanding and skills is essential.
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we talk with neurodivergent leader and expert Maz Power to explore this topic further.
Check out the questions below 👇
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work
3. What impact do neurodivergent leaders bring to the table?
4. What's the current status quo when it comes to neurodivergent leadership?
5. Where is the research heading?
6. What are some strategies to support neurodivergent leaders to help them thrive?
7. What does an ally to a neurodivergent leader look like?
8. Why are allies important for neurodivergent leaders?
9. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#neurodiversity #neurodivergent #leadership #podcast
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
As the Neurodiversity community expands, it’s becoming clear how each individual’s contributions are crucial to their work.
Given this, neurodivergent leadership within the community is increasingly important, and having the right understanding and skills is essential.
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we talk with neurodivergent leader and expert Maz Power to explore this topic further.
Check out the questions below 👇
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work
3. What impact do neurodivergent leaders bring to the table?
4. What's the current status quo when it comes to neurodivergent leadership?
5. Where is the research heading?
6. What are some strategies to support neurodivergent leaders to help them thrive?
7. What does an ally to a neurodivergent leader look like?
8. Why are allies important for neurodivergent leaders?
9. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#neurodiversity #neurodivergent #leadership #podcast
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of NeuroDivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, joined with my main man, Photon John. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:You know I'm having one of those days lots of deliveries and whatnot I've discovered today I am exactly gets very excited over new appliances years old.
Speaker 1:Oh really, oh, it's that.
Speaker 2:I got a new fridge, a new bar fridge. Um, I got a new fridge for my mom because she needed one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool man unpacking nice oh man, um well, I've just been at like a conference for the past two days, on thursday and um friday, and yeah, that was. I just finished it like on the Friday and I was stuffed man. Hey, just so much information overload you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:But it was really cool. But anyway, I reckon we should get stuck into this. So today, what we're going to be covering is neuro impact and the importance of neurodivergence leadership with my good friend Maz Power. I better take her off. Mute there. I'll get you sorted, maz. What's going on, my friend?
Speaker 3:We're all my legend and John, this is so much fun. I'm watching you. You've actually got a backstage. This is just awesome. I could actually listen to you two chat all day.
Speaker 1:It's a pity we don't have like a green room, like a proper backstage where we could have like beers and you know like it like comedy things and that how, like the other comedians, are backstage and all of that just watching yeah, yeah, yeah, look it's as close as you can get, considering that we're online.
Speaker 3:you know, here live it's awesome. I'm really really impressed. But it's great to be here with you both and yeah, will last week. That was awesome. The conference I'm still buzzing.
Speaker 1:Totally man, totally, totally, but what?
Speaker 3:we might do.
Speaker 1:What was it around? Oh well, the conference was actually it's called Thriving at Work. So you know there was a lot of HR leaders, business leaders, neurodivergent leaders and it was actually interesting. So Maz and I actually got up and did a talk around, or a panel around, neurodivergence, and a big shout-out to Claire and Sophie, if they're listening, for putting on such an awesome event and hello to anyone who's listening, maybe and that was Barry of course, who were with us as well.
Speaker 3:It was a good conversation, but all the conversations. I thought you know such a diversity speaking of neurodiversity, but a diversity of thinking, of perspectives, of story sharing, that was a really big one for me. But I don't know about you, will. I tend to get a little bit shy, awkward, introvertedverted, believe it or not when I'm in a big space, like that I do, and yet this community.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know the Serenity Collective. Every time I walk away with I know it's going to sound hashtag cringy, but such a full heart because of the authenticity, you know that there's just a really genuine vulnerability and safety that they create. So, yeah, I mean I could rave about it all day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally Talk about leadership. To keep it short, it was awesome.
Speaker 3:But anyway, let's move on. We're going back next year.
Speaker 1:Totally totally, and we probably will know because it seems like a lot of people keep coming back every year which is a real positive.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, there's a strong collective interest. Yeah, yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to go back there.
Speaker 3:Are you in that collective now? Goodwill?
Speaker 1:We've nabbed you in there, we've reeled you in, I'm hoping so We'll see what's going on, but what we might do before we move on. We'll just do a little bit of housekeeping with any new listeners. So, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube, linkedin, and we're also available on anywhere where you listen to your podcasting platforms. Also, too, if you haven't already done so, please check out the work we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy by visiting neurodiversityacademycom. Also, too, with a lot of our podcasts.
Speaker 1:You know we can sometimes be talking about some hard-hitting stuff. So just a bit of a warning Some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Also, too, if you've got any questions you'd like to ask during the live session which we're in right now, please feel free to type it in on our social media platforms there, as I'm sure we'd love to hear it. Vote on, john. What do you think of that one today? Brother? Nailed it. Nailed it, mate. There you go mate.
Speaker 3:You guys are nailing this I just what do I?
Speaker 1:what do I? What do they say? If there's a will, there's a way, right?
Speaker 3:multiple ways.
Speaker 1:I would say my friend multiple ways, absolutely but I tell you what the star of the podcast today is. You maz, so you know um like we're talking about. Um, a big thing that you're really passionate about is neuro impact and especially around leadership, and you and I get on the phone for hours sometimes. I'm pretty sure it's ours, we do.
Speaker 3:It is absolutely ours. My house is usually cleaned by the time you and I buy a jacket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally Are we saying.
Speaker 2:Will, is I need to buy you a hands-free headset for your birthday, is that?
Speaker 1:Could be could be be but you know what, right, like, I still don't use, I never use the hands-free that much. Hey, I don't know, I just never. You know, like sometimes people still, so people still will buy a book when they could get an audio book. I'll still put the phone to my ear instead of putting in ear plugs, or you know, the, the, yeah, I just I don't know I just, yeah, that's impressive.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm a multitasker all the way from way back, so it is earphones or no conversation with mass okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I gotta, I do the awkward shoulder thing while I'm you know over here doing something and then drop on the floor, so you know if I haven't got my earphones or they're not charged, because that's what's going to happen sorry, I'm gonna say one thing, right, because I was watching, like you know, like the 90s um info commercial ads from back in the day, right, yeah, you know how they'll just be these weird things like type of thing yeah, danos direct and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah like they had this thing where you could have like this thing that like went over your head sort of like how like I've got this, but it had a clip thing where you could put your phone and have it in like that and then be talking and all of this stuff, like while you're on the phone and everything yeah, but it just looks so tacky and it was just so funny. But I was like oh, I suppose, so that's the 90s, you know.
Speaker 3:Well, if you've got any 90s friends listening, drop into the comments, I reckon, because I'm sure there's some different Dales, direct moments that we can all remember.
Speaker 1:I like that one.
Speaker 3:I don't remember it, but I like it, I like it.
Speaker 1:Totally what we might do. We might do a shout out to Rebecca. Rebecca, thank you so much for showing your love. That was a person that we met at the conference, doing some really cool work with Beaumont people, I believe.
Speaker 3:Oh, rebecca Reinhart. Hello, that's the one. That's the one, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for shooting through. So what we might do, maz, if you could like share a little bit about yourself. We'd love to hear about it.
Speaker 3:A little bit about Maz. I like that, and just a heads up.
Speaker 1:You know we don't have all day, so just try and keep it short, right.
Speaker 3:I like that it says tell us a bit about yourself, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, we're being direct, we'll wrap that up with be direct.
Speaker 3:Okay, wow now we've got instructions. Maz gets very anxious about that question. Tell us a bit else about yourself.
Speaker 3:But to give some context. I used to get more worried about that question prior to my ADHD diagnosis, so let's start there. So in terms of neurodiversions, my profile is ADHD combined type and I only discovered that in my early 40s I was part of the COVID crew that went oh, maybe this all applies to me too, despite the fact that I'm a clinical psychologist. I hadn't picked up on it and neither had anybody that I'd ever interacted with. It was only that I was working with a couple of really good friends who were also exploring their own neurodivergence at the time and kind of picked up on a few of my quirks and, yeah, the typical big, long diagnostic process. It was tick the boxes with flying colors. So now that I know that about myself, I'm okay with sort of sharing that.
Speaker 3:You know, the about me section is kind of multi-hyphenated. So on paper I'm a clinical psychologist, or that's my background and my training, but actually my area of research is more in, I would say, positive psychology and human flourishing and functioning. I've always been really obsessed with the question of what makes for a meaningful life, so that's led me to study both academically and just vicariously purpose, transcendent emotions, mattering, belonging, joy, all the good things really and in terms of how that shows up and translates into work, it's pretty eclectic. I do have a clinical practice still that I run online, but the majority of my time is spent across different platforms. Will you know? You and I've? You've come onto my podcast.
Speaker 1:Pass Through 5.0.
Speaker 3:It is, it's good fun. It's good fun, you know, I've really kind of been that typical hyperactive, multi-potentialite, leaning into strengths now and recognizing that it's okay not to have that linear kind of career, that that is expected, and so, rather than sort of being a chameleon and and trying to sort of fit into a box depending on what room I walk into, yeah, for me, that diagnosis has really helped to to be quite proud in being multi-hyphenated. I co-founded and I'm the CEO of a company called the Puzzle by Group. We've had lots of iterations, will you've been involved in that process since we founded in 2018.
Speaker 3:But today we're a neuro affirming, psychology coaching and consulting company and we're really interested in reducing unnecessary human suffering and activating potential, particularly for neurodivergent leaders. So we do that in organizations supporting with workplace webinars, with workshops and keynotes so really that sort of information piece and supporting teams. There we work largely with individuals. So lots of either individual or group-based coaching. We've got some programs for neurodivergent leaders and their allies and then we've retained our our youth piece or our next gen piece, which is where we start in that future fit question um so yeah, that's a little bit about me a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hopefully, yeah, no, no, no. No, that was you was. You did very well.
Speaker 3:Direct Very well. Yes, very, direct, you did very well, not bad for late at night.
Speaker 1:You did, you did. It's roughly about 6.41 here, sorry phone on, john it is.
Speaker 2:If I could just interject for a second, you mentioned combined type, just for anyone listening who doesn't understand what that means could you elaborate a little bit on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, great point. So with ADHD, diagnostically speaking we look at inattentive is one type, hyperactive is another and combined is lucky me, double whammy both. We sort of think in the literature that combined type is less common in females. That said anecdotally, and definitely with women that I speak to, I think that that's probably more to do with our lack of understanding and our diagnostic like we need to really pick up the slack there on how hyperactivity presents in women. So a lot of the tools we use to diagnose ADHD are based on male samples. So I think over time that will probably change. But yeah, that's the combined type.
Speaker 3:I should also say a part of my neurodivergent profile, which I probably don't talk about often enough because it's not one of those things you kind of wave around. I was identified as a young person who's been gifted and so that kind of takes me into a profile we call twice exceptional, so where you've got that giftedness intellectually. And then there's also neurodivergence for me that shows up with ADHD and not officially across the line with diagnosis, but probably dyscalculia as well. So I see numbers quite differently and I have no concept of time, which is why Will is always kindly taking me on time.
Speaker 1:Oh good, oh good, oh good, but do you know what right like and I remember you speaking about, like, how you're twice exceptional, 2e some people refer to it as well and you know I'm twice exceptional as well and for me and you know about my story and all that type of stuff for me that was incredibly hard to grasp that concept because I was told, you know, because I was told I was, and it wasn't called twice exceptional back when I was first got diagnosed with dyslexia no so.
Speaker 1:I was just told I had an extremely high IQ for a kid my age. So yeah, you know, being told that you're very you know intelligent and smart type of thing, that was sort of weird, because then I'd be going back into school failing miserably and thinking what the hell is going on.
Speaker 3:Where's the congruence here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's going on. But I think as I've gotten older now I can start to see where those things come into place, you know, because we can work to our own strengths and it's like, oh my god, my strengths are so strong here and my thinking is so strong. So, you know, it's, um, it's, it's, it's definitely another sort of area.
Speaker 2:Have we had, have we had anyone come on and talk about uh twice exceptionally, yet photon john no, I don't think, I don't think so, I don't think so, and that whole concept you were just talking to as well about, you know this weird sort of dichotomy between being really good at some stuff in the system, the school system, and it's really bad at some other stuff, and it sort of really speaks to the brokenness of the system. But again, that's something I experienced as well, you know, to the point where when I did do really well, the teachers were suspicious that's really interesting yeah, yeah, right, yeah, we've got a lot actually
Speaker 2:yeah, I won't go into it too deeply because I've spoken about it a couple of times on the podcast but like there was an um, I failed music really hard just because of the way they were teaching me, despite the fact I'm a lifelong musician. But uh, when, when there was a part of the semester where you had to write a song, they refused to believe that I could have written that song and my mum had to come back to school and all this kind of stuff. So you know, I've mentioned it a few times because it seems to be a pattern that we talk about a lot with education, where it's like it's getting like an, like getting. I was getting like an a plus in, uh, social sciences because it was just a subject that I was particularly interested in and happy to hyper focus on you know, for that particular project and stuff.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's an interesting pattern that I keep seeing across all different kinds of neurodivergences too, so I think that's why it's the system that is probably the issue yeah, and just I know we're going into the next question, but to pick up on that, it is an area I'm really passionate in supporting in terms of our youth programs. That's what we double down on, because here in australia at least, we don't actually have any formal um procedures, policies, ways of identifying and then supporting twice exceptional kids in australia and that's real problem because one, you've got untapped potential. I mean, look at you two, you still are humans and we're not giving them the pathways to be able to really shine, to understand where their struggles are but also understand their strengths. So there's a lot of really unnecessary suffering in that community. Both my kids are twice exceptionals, actually so very proud about celebrating theirs.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 3:Giftedness.
Speaker 1:As an adult, I think it must just be our conditioning is when we were younger, is not something you went bragging about. Let's put it that way. Yeah, yeah, and I think the interesting thing with regards to that is that when we're not identifying these strengths or these kids for the great things they do and I sort of spoke about this at the conference, right, you know, this is where mental health then comes into play, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, for me it was sort of like why can I?
Speaker 1:do all of this great stuff in sport and creativity. But then when it comes to math and English and all of that stuff, straight over my head and it's like I really, you know, for me I'm really big on trying to get across like, look, man, don't worry about that stuff, let's worry about these things. That really, that's what's going to make you the person that you know. You can be type of thing, you know, but in saying that we should probably talk a little bit about your work, you know, I think the cool thing when you know, but in saying that we should probably talk a little bit about your work, you know, I think the cool thing when you and I were talking before we went on to the conference, especially around neuro-impact and a lot of the stuff you're doing. So you know, I want to hear a little bit more about that and then we can talk, go a little bit more in depth into that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, awesome, yeah, awesome. I mean gosh, there's, there's, there's lots. But are you talking about the new network that we've just launched, the neuro impact network? Well, yeah, well, look to tell you the truth.
Speaker 1:When he reached out and he said, hey, I'm launching this, I'm thinking, well, let's get it on the totally man. So you know let's plug this shit. Right, let's plug it.
Speaker 3:No, I am really excited actually. So Neuro Impact Network is a community, a hybrid community, that we are creating to support neurodivergent leaders, and it's really come out of a series of programs, actually, that we've been rolling out over the years. I say we at Positify. One of the first ones was Messy Magic. So when I first discovered my own neurodivergent profile as an ADHD woman who you know, by society's standards and my own standards is pretty happy and functioning, flourishing life, I could find a lot about what was wrong with me and how to support what was wrong with me in terms of my neurodivergent profile. But as a strengths-based, solution-oriented kind of gal, I was really struggling to find out okay, great, but how do I leverage my strengths and how do I get to know what those look like? And then, how do I reauthor some of the stories that I used to have in my head that were really misplaced Stories, like you guys spoke to some of these, that gap of noticing you know what your potential you believe to be and then where the performance is. Or you know, maybe I'm just lazy and that's why I don't turn up on time. So anyway, all of that set me down the rabbit hole. We did a lot of market research and developed Messy Magic, but out of that it was like there was another, there was another, stop right. So that brings me to the point of what is the work that we're doing, and I think, in terms of supporting neurodivergent people in general, but leaders as well, it's looking at great, traditionally speaking, we've looked at the struggles within our neurodivergent community and that is really important because we know there is a lot of unnecessary suffering, so it's not to take away at all about. You know all of the work that's happening there, but a little bit like positive psychology has helped to fill the whole continuum of mental health.
Speaker 3:I'm really interested in now leaning into going okay, great. Well, how can we come together as a community and share insights and lived experience and on-the-job stories, case studies, problems, to really leverage our strengths both individually and then collectively as a group of neurodivergent leaders? So that's why the Neuro Impact Network has been developed and I'm really excited because so far the humans coming in are brilliant and from so many different walks of life doing all sorts of really cool things. I would say that we're united and I'm quite intentional about this but united by a desire to use our differences our skills, our perspectives, our strengths to create really sustainable impact in the world. So we've got a lot of people in the tech sector joining us. We've got a lot of creative types, some entrepreneurs and founders as well. So, yeah, I'm really excited it's a selfish project, I'm not going to lie because I love learning from other people and hanging out with really cool creative, innovative folks.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm really excited.
Speaker 2:Can I just ask you know you talked about a lot of sectors that we tend to know about, that neurodivergent people tend to thrive in, like the tech and whatnot. What's the most unexpected sector you've had someone come from in terms of you know a good leader who would be someone who can push in that Good?
Speaker 3:question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Can I?
Speaker 1:go on that as well.
Speaker 3:But I'll let Maz you answer that. I'll say something shortly.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I go on that as well. But I'll let maz you answer. That I've had. I'll say something shortly.
Speaker 3:But yeah, you go, maz um, I'm struggling to answer it because it's genuinely from a really diverse crew, hey like and I think that also speaks I know we've got another question later about you know where the neurodivergent leaders pop up it speaks to the idea that you know, traditionally we've kind of um, I guess pigeonholholed our assumptions of where neurodivergent people might thrive. So I think a lot of people.
Speaker 2:The stereotype is what I'm getting at.
Speaker 3:The stereotype, yeah, of the autistic person you know working in engineering or STEM, and that is true and that's great and that's accurate, but it's not all. So we've got people joining us from performing arts, sports, so like high, like what's it called, where they're jumping off buildings and things. What do you call that? High risk, high impact, what's it called? Someone?
Speaker 1:help me out. It's too late at night. Oh, that would be extreme Extreme sports.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yes, emergency services. So a lot of ADHD people actually really thrive when they're in emergency. I've got somebody who's a surgeon who's wanting to join. We've got representation from you know the climate tech sector as well. So, yeah, really an artist, a really diverse group of humans, teachers which is great.
Speaker 1:That's what we wanted to do. Do you know what I should do for you, maz? If you want, what's that? So I got invited to like it was like a brainstorming session with the water industry. Oh cool the water industry put on like this thing and like it was a cool room.
Speaker 2:I remember this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, packed with people. I think there might have been about 50-something people in the room right. Yeah, packed with people. I think there might have been about 50-something people in the room right and they wanted to get. They brought the leaders from the sector together about how they can potentially grow neurodiversity within the water sector. So we had, like we had breakout rooms where, yeah, it was interesting, I never had seen anything. And they're like, how far behind the eight ball are we? And I'm like, well, to tell you the truth, you're not behind the eight ball at all, because your own one else is doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah and designing up.
Speaker 3:I love that I love that.
Speaker 3:That's, every program that we've ever created and delivered has always been a co-design. So the programs we did with youth were always involving the youth and asking yeah, asking what they noticed and what was working well for them and where the gaps were. So we've always been industry-led, youth-led and now, you know our community-led in neurodivergent leadership. So I mean, of course, I've got curriculum that is mapped out according to what we've got in the evidence around what supports neurodivergent leaders to manage their struggles and really leverage their strengths. But, look, I'm really happy to hold that lightly and to be informed by who's coming into the network and, yeah, I want it to be a space where people can come together, where people can come together and feel like they can play in a way that's really inclusive and exciting and thought-provoking and vulnerable and authentic.
Speaker 1:Can I say All the good words? Yeah, yeah, totally, and I totally agree with you 100%, maz. And, like that's, the biggest thing for me is the community, and I think that there's so much to learn from the community. So, there might be certain things that I'm struggling. You know I don't know everything.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not saying that I know yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that I do right, and sometimes it's interesting. I feel like I can sometimes be open with the community about stuff that I might not be able to be open about with people not from outside the community and I'm not judged, I'm actually. We can sit down, have good discussions about certain things and be like oh my god, I go through that. Oh my god such and such.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:and it's so valuable um.
Speaker 1:I think community is key.
Speaker 3:And I guess that's for me one of the parts I get excited about is, prior to going to psychology, I studied counselling, psychotherapy and group facilitation, so I have a real love for bringing people together and making sure that the conditions are right for psychological safety, because, you know, we tend to be a community that can sometimes overshare, and that's okay. So it's very intentional about creating that space where people um have that ability to to do a deep dive but feel like they've got some, some boundaries around what that looks like. Um, yeah, so it's, it's going to be fun.
Speaker 3:I'm excited we we've already sort of soft launched, but we officially kick off in july um with our founding network members. So if you're interested, definitely get in touch because um I'd love to have a conversation and see if I'm looking. We officially kick off in July with our founding network members. So if you're interested, definitely get in touch because I'd love to have a conversation and see if it's right.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to looking into it a bit more.
Speaker 3:Maz, I'm pretty excited Good, good, good.
Speaker 1:But, moving on from that, what impact do neurodivergent leaders bring to the table? You know you've sort of touched a little bit on this, but I think we could probably go a little bit more in depth. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3:Well, I think you could probably just look at the you know the good humans hosting this podcast and there's there's a little bit of insight, right but in all seriousness.
Speaker 3:You know it's so well deserved and, um, yeah, I love what you're doing um, the impact that neurodivergent leaders are creating. You know the problem it's not captured anywhere and yet it's captured and seen everywhere. So I think the majority of people who think about neurodivergent leaders probably those outliers come to mind or those really high profile people. So you know, richard Branson's been very open about dyslexia and, more recently, adhd.
Speaker 3:You know, our comedian here in Australia is coming out and her big show is coming on stage, so we've got the creatives represented, and Greta Thunberg and her climate activism, and so people sort of go oh well, it's okay for them, but then that's all. And yet the reality is, if we look at those stats again so just the tech sector, for example we know that 54% of people working in the tech sector identify as neurodivergent. And if you think about the different, yeah, it's huge, right, especially when you think you know we think of neurodiversity to be sort of the 20 percent in the general population then you've got a whole industry, tech and, I would argue that, a lot of entrepreneurs in fact. I think I saw a statistic recently that was saying 36%, 40%.
Speaker 1:I thought it was 40%.
Speaker 3:It could be 30% For dyslexic representation.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know about. I saw something the other day where it was like 40%, but you could be right, I'm not sure it seems to change.
Speaker 3:I reckon, if we branch that out, it seems to change and this is the thing.
Speaker 3:So we're just learning.
Speaker 3:Because if you combine that then with our knowledge that there's a lot of adults who are coming into understanding their own brain-based differences later in life and we can talk about that if you're interested in why that is the case.
Speaker 3:But you know, there's a lot of leaders doing really good work who, one, maybe don't even know that they are neurodivergent and, two, if they do know, part of the thing that I'm really wanting to move the needle on and and change is the stigma associated with sharing um. So I think, as we start to continue these conversations that you guys doing such a beautiful job of of hosting um, raising awareness and seeing different um neurodivergent minds role model, then we're going to see more of a representation, more stories and a better understanding of what our impact is. But look, I can roughly say, while you will not find a research paper that says what are the neurodivergent leader strengths and where are they seen, we do know there are some research papers that have looked at how military combat leaders, for example, with ADHD, when given the right psychoeducation about their differences, when given the right environmental conditions to thrive for their brain-based differences and when, given a coach for an accountability, actually outperform their non-ADHD military combat. You know.
Speaker 3:I guess, yeah, in terms of making decisions on ethical dilemmas. So, you know, neurodivergent um people have really specific, unique strengths. Um, which is a whole podcast in its in its own right, and I think for me, what's exciting is um is helping um leaders in particular, but but neurodivergent people in general, to not just understand and manage their struggles through accommodations like we said, that's important but also to really get to know what their unique you know, their own unique value proposition is and to double down on that in a way that is really meaningful and creates change um I like to think of us as like the different kind of difference makers in the world.
Speaker 3:That's probably that I should have started there no, no, no problem at all can I just attach to that as a yeah, a lot of.
Speaker 2:I know you guys aren't the problem, but a lot of people don't see music as work or an industry. But oh, I do yeah, as a local musician you know localish I've toured all over the country and I started um in my band which I recently left after five years.
Speaker 2:But I started to be more and more open about being neurodivergent in interviews, through the music itself. And then I started saying things on stage. I'm not really someone who announces oh, this song is about this, you know, but just a couple of them. I would just say a little something beforehand and I started noticing. I remember the first time I did it at a venue in Brisbane and just all these hands went up and I wasn't even saying who is, I was just saying this song's about having autism, and all these like physically people put their hands up and were yelling out and I realised, oh okay, no one's doing this, you know, no one's doing this you know no one's doing this.
Speaker 3:Good on you. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2:It's funny because sometimes being a leader can just be as simple as that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and so now.
Speaker 2:I'm connected with all of the other neurodivergent well, a lot of the other neurodivergent musicians in the local Brisbane scene. I know I started doing it when we went on tour all over the country and I was seeing the same thing in every city Sydney, melbourne. I was seeing the same thing in every city Sydney, melbourne. You know all the rural places that we went up far north and everything. So it can be quite simple. Sometimes it's not complicated, you know being a leader.
Speaker 3:You're so right.
Speaker 2:You're just leading, you're just trying to take the conversation or the industry forward. Sometimes it's just as simple as saying something.
Speaker 1:And can I say as well, like sometimes, what I'm seeing with, or the importance of neurodivergent leaders is there's a few different things, right, um, they're influencing the next generation, do you? Know what I mean so and that I could I add to that. Probably vice versa will, as well, the next generation, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, very encouraging oh man, they're showing off, aren't they?
Speaker 1:but, but I, I suppose, um, and and I always go back to this I will never forget, especially when I was writing my book all these years ago, I was talking to this guy in hong kong and he was talking to me about the cto from the company he works at is dyslexic, and the guy I was talking to wasn't dyslexic, but the CTO was, and he was just talking to me about how his boss is awesome and he's so open-minded and all that. So it's not necessarily them, necessarily, um, them influencing other neurodivergent people, influencing other, you know, neurotypical people as well, to be like, more open-minded to neurodivergent people as a whole, if that makes sense yeah, absolutely that's where the role of allies comes in hey totally, allies are huge and, yes, I fed on john, you go, mate.
Speaker 2:Oh, just the amount of workplaces I remember being in pre-diagnosis where I was going through really serious mental health struggles as a result of being forced to behave in ways that weren't natural to me. Um, and the you know, forget neurodivergence, just mental health in general. The the lack of seriousness, you know, forget neurodivergence, just mental health in general. The lack of seriousness, you know, attached to those issues by bosses and leaders in certain industries is really detrimental. And if you add, being neurodivergent on top of that, I thought I was going through like depression cycles. I was actually going through autistic burnout and ADHD burnout.
Speaker 2:It was very intense um and but I'm, but I'm being told yeah, I just you know, that's that. You're not. You're not throwing up why you're not at work take a pill, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, 100.
Speaker 3:You touched on such an important point there. Um, it, that's, I, I think, what's really interesting to. To your point around, where is the representation? Um, I don't know if you know this well, but my prior career or life, I should say, was in acting and performance and the arts.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't know about that. It wouldn't surprise me, because you seem very on stage.
Speaker 3:That was yeah, well, you know they always say you end up figuring out how to pull it all together in the end. Right, yeah, so and the representation there? I think back to a lot. Like they always say, you end up figuring out how to pull it all together in the end. Right, yeah, so and the representation there. I think back to a lot of my colleagues and I know, you know, we've all kept in touch but that creative brain type and those really exceptional performers and the open struggles that they've shared around mental illness. You know there's a real correlation, I think, with the creatives who show up in ways and gift that in the world.
Speaker 3:So it'd be really interesting to do a little bit of a deep dive into this industry specifically. I think we're probably under-reporting representation in particular industries, because they attract our strengths. I mean, you know you guys are the first to acknowledge that you want to go where the dopamine flows, and if the thing that you like to do is, you know, create music, then that's amazing. You're going to do really, really well there. Might not do so well if you're put in an accounting firm, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and it's about finding what works best right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah, and then having the people to support you there too. But I agree there's a lot of work to be done in terms of raising that awareness and helping workplaces and organisations and neurotypical leaders to understand that this isn't something that you can just sleep off and you know, a mental health day is not going to prevent or support somebody whose brain-based differences mean that they are more prone to burnout from those environmental factors and all of the things that go into creating that. So I'm sorry to hear that's been a part of your story, it's been a part of mine too and it's something I care very passionately about preventing with people.
Speaker 2:And I think this is a lot of job hopping, which I think you alluded to earlier.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of that when I was younger, because I would come and be hyper-focused, love learning new things, be excellent at it and then have trouble giving a shit three months later you know.
Speaker 3:Relate to that. I was known as the build and bolt girl until I figured out what was going on. Yeah, that's interesting. I can relate to that, yeah, yeah, that sprint mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. No, that's interesting, so we'll move on to the. I actually did have something to say, but I just had a full ADHD mind blank there, so I've completely forgotten, it'll come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'll come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So no need to apologize, right? So what's the current status quo when it comes to neurodivergent leadership?
Speaker 3:I'm going to give you my interpretation of an answer to that question, but I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you're interested in. In fact, let me just ask that what when you say the status quo of neurodivergent leadership? Tell me more about that question. What would be helpful to know about?
Speaker 2:What's the prevalence currently of neurodivergent leaders in different industries, without us trying to bring it forward and more into the open? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where are they right now? Where are our stats? Okay, so, in addition to sort of talking about you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, where are they right now? Where are our stats? Okay, so, in addition to sort of talking about, you know the industries that we were speaking to, where there is a higher prevalence rate. So we know, within our start-up sector, our tech sector, I think, probably in our performing sectors and in our arts, definitely in those high-risk roles, so emergency sector there's a higher rate.
Speaker 3:What's really interesting is the paradox, so the research of the unemployment rates, which I would say that the research today has focused most heavily on the autistic community, and I imagine a lot of your listeners are familiar with that research and if anybody wants to know more, I'm really happy to point you in the direction of some research articles and papers to point to. And so what we end up with is this, almost like a this or that situation, and nothing is ever this. Well, very few things. I hate to say nothing because that's kind of a little bit this or that in itself, isn't it this or that?
Speaker 3:And so I think again, the more that we start to understand neurodiversity as an actual spectrum and continuum, and the more that we start to see the unique strengths and perspectives and skills and contributions within our community, I think we'll get a better picture of where our neurodivergent leaders are sitting, of where our neurodivergent leaders are sitting, but for those listening, I'd really be curious to hear from you whether or not you want to throw it into the comments, if you're joining us live, or even if you just want to take a moment to reflect. I wonder if you can have a think about the different people that you've known in your life who might either identify themselves as neurodivergent or maybe have kids who are neurodivergent, because that's often a little bit of a giveaway. A lot of our well, all of our neurodivergent profiles, there's a genetic predisposition to Sorry to butt in there.
Speaker 1:I do want to say I don't know about you, but I find where. Say at that conference, for example, I was surprised how many people were coming up to me afterwards and they're like oh, my son or daughter, and I'm pretty sure I am too, and it's not just there. I've seen that nearly every place I speak at people who listen to the podcast, who know the work we're doing. It's just blowing my mind.
Speaker 3:They're having aha moments yeah.
Speaker 1:It's almost like I don't know the word word for it, but it's like a um. It's happening a lot now yeah, like it's becoming and, like I think as well, a lot of people in um who have been working certain jobs for their whole life are now going. Oh my god, now this makes sense. Now I can see why we need to really focus on neurodiversity in the workplace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had multiple friends get diagnosis through listening to the podcast.
Speaker 3:That is so cool.
Speaker 2:But they've listened to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Explore the pathway. Okay, I should probably actually go and get this checked out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, oh absolutely because again even if you're not in that space where you're languishing and even if you're not in that space where you're suffering, um, but to understand why you behave the way you behave, to have that you know that full identity piece and to know why parts of you show up in different ways. Um, we know from the research for women in you know that full identity piece. And to know why parts of you show up in different ways, we know from the research for women in particular. You know, without a diagnosis there's a real risk of internalizing the brain-based differences as personal flaws and the collateral damage that comes with that. We see a lot more imposter syndrome. We see a lot more low self-esteem, mental health challenges associated with that, women not stepping into leadership roles and taking careers because they're afraid that they won't be able to show up. Or we see perfectionistic and overcompensatory strategies.
Speaker 3:I know myself I definitely flitted between the two, which was a large proportion of my own sort of burnout and coming up and then shying away and withdrawing when I felt like I wasn't understood or I couldn't read the room or I didn't quite know where I fit in. And so the diagnosis piece it's not just about traditionally speaking, it was looked at. I mean, I digress a little bit, but ADHD has only come into the DSM-5 in 2013 as a neurodevelopmental difference, for example, so prior to that it was seen as a behavioral disorder that was to be treated and to be fixed, so the treatment protocol was well, if we give kids wasn't thought of as an adult difference, because it wasn't a brain-based difference, it was a disorder.
Speaker 3:If we give kids behavioral charts and we use, you know what, that conditional behavioral therapy, that, um, you know the skinner days for any psychologist listening um, then we'll kind of whack it out of them.
Speaker 3:So that's 2013, like my kids were alive then and and and not just alive, but they were coming into getting their own diagnosis themselves. So we know now. We know now that these neurodivergent profiles are genetic and largely inherited, and whether or not they express themselves to the point where somebody seeks out a diagnosis, most people will usually do that if there's sort of that struggle or that problem, as opposed to looking at it through the lens of well, I'm doing well, but what does it look like if I could do even better, which is that peak performance and human flourishing space that I'm really interested in. So, yeah, I really do think we've got a lot of leaders who might be listening in going well, yeah, I do have neurodivergent kids myself. Maybe there's something in this and I would ask or encourage, implore those leaders to speak up because, you know, the more we can see it helps, the more that we can see people like us reflected out in cool jobs, doing cool things.
Speaker 1:Owning cool companies.
Speaker 3:Absolutely to that the more that we can see our possibilities, you know, and move towards those.
Speaker 1:I say that because and I'm not going to mention this person's name or the company, because that would be a dead giveaway if I did Now there's a huge company here in Australia that has. It's a tech company, so it's almost a little bit like Guess who, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm so playing this game with you.
Speaker 1:I'm like, okay, that's different, different, different, and this is like one of the biggest tech companies to come out of Australia to do some amazing stuff at the moment Bingo, bingo bingo. Put your hand down, but one of the co-founders from that is NeuroDivergent right.
Speaker 3:And you know.
Speaker 1:I have tried to sort of say look, come on, get behind this or, you know, get your company to be like the leaders in this. But they don't want to, because they don't want to be the poster boy. They don't want to be seen as the poster person Poster boy, yeah. Person no, I don't want to give away if they're male or female.
Speaker 3:I do not Sorry, and do you know what? Sorry, I just need to finish this.
Speaker 1:I just need to finish this right Now. The thing is that, yeah, okay, I get that they don't want to be the poster boy, but you know it's not about them being the poster boy. They can do a lot of stuff with their company to be able to show that they're behind neurodiversity, but you know, I see this company putting so much money in all these other areas and it's sort of like dude man, you're letting down the team.
Speaker 2:I agree yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but can I just say how much I love that all three of us are saying sorry to say, but I can. Can I just interrupt?
Speaker 3:that's three very self-aware adhd people in a podcast together thank you for that recognition and acknowledgement because, yes, we're all sitting on our lips and our hands and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially this time of day, but you know, you touched.
Speaker 1:You touched the base a little bit on research before. Where is the research heading, do you think?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's another really interesting question. Look, the research does exist. Um, there's a lot of conversation to say that it doesn't and that we need more. We absolutely do need more. So, again, let's hold two things side by side. But, again, if you're interested in the research, please reach out to me, dm me, email me. I'm so happy to start your reading list with you. We've had, you know, professor Amanda Kirby, nancy Doyle, doing incredible stuff in, you know, neurodiversity workplace. You know the Canary Code coming out, of course. So lots of pieces coming together, I think, in terms of where the research is going.
Speaker 3:My take on the literature to date has been, again, it's been very focused on that awareness piece. So, what is neurodiversity? Why should we be talking about it? Some research into strengths, more research into struggles and where the important, unnecessary suffering lies and what we should be doing about that. I'm really excited with the conversation, um, to be contributing to the other part of that, to say, okay, cool, but what about? What about in our neurodivergent population, where there's flourishing? Um, what's going on with those humans? You know, how can we get to know a little bit about that and double down on it, and how can we take what we know about what's working well, um, and then learn from that and create some preventative support structures, systems, communities that help people to really sit and be radically accepting of their brain-based differences, to be able to put accommodations and adjustments in place, of course, for the struggles that each of us who is neurodivergent I mean as people we have. But neurodivergent people have very real struggles. And then and then look at, and then how do we leverage those strengths? You know, like, how do we get you in the room with the right people who can, who can hold space for you to do your brilliant? Because I don't think that we have a good enough representation in the literature.
Speaker 3:I'm talking, you know, the scientific literature here, not blogs that you're going to find on the internet, because they exist and they're really cool, by the way, but we need more empirical data. I'm a scientist by training and I think, while there's such a place for lived experience story sharing, I was reading just on a good friend, grace Kulmer, future ADHD founder, her Instagram channel. She was talking about rejection, sensitivity disorder, and somebody put it in there like that's not even a thing. You know, there's no science behind it, there's no empirical studies. It's like those two things are true, because lived experience of our community says rejection, sensitivity is absolutely a thing, but you go trying any kind of protocol on that or scientific evidence and you're going to struggle.
Speaker 3:And until we get the funding and the prioritization of neurodiversity into these bodies in our science community where we are doing really rigorous peer-reviewed examination of the core things that support our struggles and leverage our strengths, I fear that we won't be taken seriously and I'm all about us being taken really seriously. So I think it's about really advocating and helping people to understand why this is an important research topic and, to your point Will, looking to different avenues as to how we can fund it, because it's not necessarily going to come out of the university sector. It might, but I think we need to accelerate Well big business.
Speaker 1:Big business, you know, for us, us especially with you know, diversity academy. A big thing for us is to you know, we want to build this into a big business and we want to make millions of dollars so we can take some of that money and put it into things like great, yeah, into things like research and all of that type of stuff, you know into specific areas that we're trying to work on. If that makes so we can create training materials around, that, that is legit.
Speaker 3:It's not just absolutely yeah at the moment we're still sitting in that very much evidence-informed space yeah, yeah, which is fine, and we need to get in there and we need to disrupt.
Speaker 3:I'm very passionate about you know, measure, what you treasure, but again, like, how do you replicate that and how do you know whether or not it's suitable to replicate that and generalise that across different communities if we don't have the data? So I think we need both. We need that lived experience, sharing and just being curious with each other and just knowing ourselves and knowing each other and trying things out, experimenting. But I really think that we deserve a space in the scientific community to double down on what's working well and where the support lies.
Speaker 2:We do need to fix that ratio between research on struggles and research on stress. I think, it's out of whack currently. I think you know you were talking before about the lived experience side of things. I think where it personally tends to draw the line a bit is, and let me say clearly, self-diagnosis is very helpful to a lot of people because clinical diagnosis can be long and drawn out and very expensive and inaccessible.
Speaker 2:I hate that. I'm not saying I have any problem with self-diagnosis, but I think if you're going to talk lived experience in a way that creates data that people should pay attention to, I feel like it's better to be diagnosed. If you're going to talk lived experience, yeah interesting.
Speaker 3:Why is that? Can I ask?
Speaker 2:Well, because you don't know yet, right? So like I'm talking about like speaking as an authority on a particular topic, like I see a lot of people on social media just sort of talking casually about, you know, without a diagnosis, about stuff that's kind of clinical and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying they can't be educated. I'm just saying, when you're going to get into that nitty-gritty research, clinical kind of stuff, perhaps a diagnosis is a bit better for you to really, because then you get the literature, you get the support, you get to understand really what's going on with you, rather than just TikTok videos, you know yeah, so I think, that can be a little bit more useful.
Speaker 2:So I tend to think, if you're going to look at lived experience with people, diagnosed individuals can be a slightly better, more informed source of of that kind of information and people may be like.
Speaker 3:No, no, no. That's why I asked tell me more about where you're coming from, because you've raised some really important points. I mean, that's why we have differential diagnosis in psychology right, and we know that a lot of the features of neurodiversions can show up across different profiles and different reasons. There was a time I don't know if you guys remember it must've been like late last year or maybe the year before where everybody was kicking up adhd saying, oh, this is being over diagnosed and it's just trauma. It's just trauma, everything's trauma.
Speaker 2:Um, and look, you know, there's some truth and now they're complaining about trauma oh trauma's over diagnosed right and so absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean, we have diagnostic criteria. For that reason, and I'm thinking, a really interesting design. So here we go. Any, any, any research humans out there who want to follow up on this one? What would it look like if you split your groups up and looked at the we call it qualitative, so lived experience, or phenomenological studies, so those qualitative questions of what's this like for you and collect the data from people who have self-identified and collect the data from people who have been diagnosed? Because I could flip the opposite on its head there, john, and say that I would guess I haven't read the data.
Speaker 1:Oh, maz Bless you Maz.
Speaker 2:No problem at all.
Speaker 1:No problem at all.
Speaker 3:It's making you too fast. You're in the zone.
Speaker 1:My friend, you're in the zone, I'm in the depth, hang on take a breath.
Speaker 3:Take a breath, take some water yeah, the opposite is true yeah, in that I think that possibly people have received a diagnosis, may not have had a differential diagnosis, and then with that I will take a sip of water I'm gonna need you to elaborate on that, because I'm not going to pretend that I understood exactly what you said sorry I went into psycho bubble land.
Speaker 3:Um, I do that. Um. So differential diagnosis is the term that we use to um understand why a feature might be showing up. So, like we said before, there can be some overlap with different profiles. So I mean, we know, with ADHD and autism for example, there genuinely is an overlap and the features will kind of show up. It's interesting, in ADHD we tend to say you know intense interests, and in autism we talk about special interests. So there's that. But you know things like working memory differences, for example.
Speaker 3:When we're looking at an ADHD diagnosis, we really want to be ruling out, for example, biological reasons that might be impacting somebody's memory function or their differences in, you know, language development.
Speaker 3:We want to be looking at trauma is a good one because it does impact someone's nervous system and we know that within our neurodiversion population we've got highly sensitive nervous systems that respond to their sensory environment, and so a really rigorous reason why assessments and diagnoses are so in-depth and they are complex is because we're trained to understand people's stories in a way that helps us to. Unfortunately, we can't scan a razor and go there it is Wouldn't that be cool? But we can sort of pull things apart and say look, with everything that we've learned so far, it's most likely or it's most probable that this is the piece that we want to double down on. And that's important because we know that our support protocols, particularly when we're looking in that clinical space for people who might be coming into seeking support because of neurodivergence and or other mental health presentations, they do differ and their efficacy or their ability to work differs based on whether or not you kind of got the diagnosis right. So it's complex. It's complex. I love it because I love complex.
Speaker 2:And look, I never speak in absolutes, you know, but in my opinion, on this whole self-diagnosis thing is just a generalisation. But yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Hey look, I've had to skip a few questions because we're coming to the end of the show type of thing, so I thought we might come to this one why are allies important for neurodivergent leaders? Because we spoke a little bit about this and they are important, especially for the community themselves as well. Can you sort of go a little bit on that and can you keep it a bit tight for?
Speaker 3:us. Hey Maz, can you make this 30 seconds? What's your?
Speaker 1:elevator. It's a kind way of saying hurry the hell up.
Speaker 3:Be an ally because, look, I can share personally that the allies in my life have really helped me to shortcut a lot of my own unnecessary suffering. So they've helped me at a personal level to go, maz, come on, let's not get stuck in that story and like, okay, yeah, true, it's like a you know, rattle shock. I had a beautiful executive assistant for a while who I affectionately called Pegasus because she was a part of my brain that I just otherwise didn't have. You know, she was an ally. She really did her work to ask me questions, to be curious, to be open, to be nonjudgmental and I think these are all qualities of beautiful allies. And I also think that, while I'm all for advocating as a neurodiversion person for our community, it can get really bloody exhausting.
Speaker 3:We were talking about this offline before we jumped on. It's like at the conference last week I had a few people come up to me and say, mads, I'd love you to come and speak. You know, because neurodiversity it's such a hot topic, like, oh, really glad to hear that my brain-based difference is your hot topic of the month. We do it. Should we do it tomorrow and not next year because we might have moved along to some other hot?
Speaker 3:topic yeah, don't want to miss out can kind of, you know, like allies, can kind of step in for us when, um, when we are tired and they can, they can hold space for us and they can make sure that they're fighting the good fight alongside us. Yeah, people in culture, hr, I'm thinking of coaches working with neurodivergent people. I'm thinking of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging humans. You know, like there's parents, coaches. Anybody can be an ally, everybody should be an ally, but, yeah, just being a good human.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and I think sometimes I see with the community, they, they sometimes push away the people trying to help, you know, and maybe sometimes the allies don't have all the answers or they, um, you know they're trying to learn. You know, don't push these people away. It takes. It takes like a lot of people to create change, not just, you know, neurodivergent people themselves, type of thing, and you know I often see that, and sometimes people may frown against allies type of thing, and it's like no man, we should be embracing these people Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know this is what's going to create this change and all of that there. But no, thank you so much. You did very well with that one, maz Congratulations.
Speaker 3:You did very well. There Was that tight on time for you there. That was.
Speaker 1:That was awesome. That was awesome, you know.
Speaker 3:I could talk about this stuff for days. So good, I'm glad that that was tied on time for you.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, you nailed that. Good job. Now look, you know, you've got some awesome stuff happening.
Speaker 3:Where can people connect with you and your work? Anywhere online. You're going to just have to type in my name and there I will be. Um, so we are reimagining our positive group website, but otherwise you could normally go to wwwthepositivegroupcomau. Currently, that's going to redirect you to my page, which is marianepowercomau. Um, so yeah, jump on there, connect. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on uh, less active on Instagram, but I'm trying to get back and amongst it. Um, but before we wrap up, because I know we're going to get there, I would hate to leave the community listeners without a couple of just hot tips from us in terms of how to take care of yourself as a neurodivergent person.
Speaker 3:I think, only because, also because I should say the stock standards.
Speaker 3:Stereotypical psychologist response to that would be look after your mental health, absolutely. But where I'm really excited about the research and what I'm very passionate about as a neurodivergent leader and founder myself, is in the recognition that real, radical, intentional self-care is so much more than just the thoughts in our heads. It's about understanding our unique nervous systems. It's about appreciating that our rest cycles look different and our energy flows are different, and that is particularly true for women, who can be impacted by their hormonal changes. It's about recognizing that there's a lot there's 50% of us struggle with chronic illness or chronic fatigue, and so we need to be taking our self-care so seriously and I mean that at an integrated level.
Speaker 3:That's real leadership. We need to be looking after our bodies, our minds, our hearts and our spirits. One of the biggest protective factors for our neurodivergent community and they have captured this in literature is the spirituality aspect and and having that sense of um creating something that is bigger than us and being connected to something that is bigger than us, which is why I love studying transcendent emotions. Who would have known right? That worked out real well, um, so just honoring that and um finding people that you can connect with, um that will keep you accountable to that, so that we don't dance to the beat of somebody else's drum.
Speaker 2:We really need to understand that, so that that would be my please look after yourselves, yeah yeah, leadership is hard and burnout is something we struggle with in any role, and leadership can put a lot of pressure but we can totally yeah, it's not easy, but um can be so effective once done properly, if that makes sense and with support yeah, totally, totally, totally maz.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Speaker 3:You are a rock star. I think it's the first time I've officially choked publicly.
Speaker 1:When did?
Speaker 3:you choke, oh, choke, oh I see what you mean.
Speaker 1:The cool thing about this is it's live right, so I think that's the best thing about it, these little things.
Speaker 2:You have the best camera and microphone of any guest we've had. I think You're presenting as like a well-rounded newsreader.
Speaker 1:Oh, take that compliment, can you hear you?
Speaker 2:clearly yeah, it looks great, it looks very professional.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much, I appreciate that very kind encouraging feedback.
Speaker 1:No, no, thank you, maz, but I tell you what? For all of our listeners out there, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. I'm your host, will Wheeler, with my main man, Photon John, and this is NeuroDivergent Mates Till next time.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us you.