Success as a Dyslexic Entrepreneur - Jamie Waller

In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we’re thrilled to welcome Jamie Waller, a dyslexic entrepreneur, investor, and author. He’ll be sharing his thoughts on achieving success as a dyslexic entrepreneur.

As passionate entrepreneurs aiming to establish Neurodiversity Academy on a global scale, we’re eager to hear Jamie’s insights and learn from his experiences.

We’ll be exploring questions such as:

1. Tell us a little bit about yourself

2. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do

3. How did your neurodivergence impact your journey to where you are now?

4. What do you think the issues were with school and higher education that were unhelpful for your dyslexia?

5. There's good data on the prevalence of neurodivergence in entrepreneurship. Why do you think so many of us find it attractive?

6. What are some strengths you think employers need to understand that we can bring to the table?

7. What were some of the struggles you had to learn to overcome as a dyslexic entrepreneur?

8. Why is it important for neurodivergent leaders in particular to be open about both their struggles and their strengths?

9. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?


All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com 

To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, joined with my main man, Photon John. What's going on, brother?

Speaker 2: 0:32

Yeah, working hard today, working hard, nice quiet weekend. How about you?

Speaker 1: 0:36

Oh you know, just, yeah, another day, another day, another dolly. You know what I mean. Yeah, Just going through. Just, I don't know the year's. I mean, yeah, Just going through. I don't know the year's just gone so fast.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Yeah, it's that time of year too. Everyone's working real hard. Well, it's tax time.

Speaker 1: 0:51

It's tax time, isn't it? Yeah, you know, but cool, cool. Anyway, we should get stuck into this. We've got a really awesome guest all the way from the UK. So today, what we're going to be covering as success is a dyslexic entrepreneur, and we're joined by our special guest, jamie Waller. Jamie, how's it going, my friend?

Speaker 3: 1:12

I'm great. Good morning from me and good evening to you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:15

Good evening for us yes no, thank you so much and like we were saying before here in Australia, or in Sydney at least, anyway, that the weather has just been absolute crap. It has been too. Yeah, I think it's just an Australian thing. But it looks like you're really living it up there at the moment.

Speaker 3: 1:35

Yeah, yeah, we've probably got about an hour, so hopefully we get done in time and everybody believes that the UK is like this 364 days a year.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Do you know what I need to say? Right, like looking out the back there, right, I don't know. It sort of reminds me of like thai. It looks like thailand or bali, like the back there or something I don't know. It's probably just how we're seeing it now, but it probably looks completely different.

Speaker 3: 2:06

We're really fortunate. Actually, we're on the river here, oh wow. In the background, but we're just on the outskirts of London and it's a beautiful part of beautiful part of town.

Speaker 1: 2:19

Yeah, it's a beautiful place.

Speaker 3: 2:22

We do. We've just had the Henley Regatta here, so we've had a week. If my voice is a bit hoarse, it's because I've had about 200 gallons of rosé over the last seven months.

Speaker 1: 2:33

No judgment here, mate. No judgment here, but what we might do before we get started, we'll just do a little bit of a shout-out for any new listeners who we might have. So, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube, linkedin, and you can also subscribe to us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, too, if you haven't already done so, please check out the work we're doing at Neurodiversity Academy, which you can check out at neurodiversityacademycom Also, too. You know, some of the discussions we may have may be triggering, so if you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Also, too, if you've got some questions to ask us during the podcast, please feel free to do it through our live uh platform, which you can just ask while you're going through our social media platforms. Nice, I got that that down. Well, pat, what did you think of that one photo on John?

Speaker 1: 3:45

Better and better, yeah hell yeah, hell, yeah, jamie, look, thank you so much for coming on. When you reached out to me to connect, I was just like at first whenever I get people connecting with me, I'm always sussing them out, and when I checked out your stuff, I Googled you and Google just blew straight up. So I was like, okay, this guy, is this guy's real here. Um, so when, um, when we, um, you know when, when I reached out to you and I thought, yeah, this would be a really great person to come on to the podcast. So, um, you know, we're really excited to have you on, but before we do, we've just got someone saying, hi, hi, all new listeners, caitlin here to be online.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, good, thank you so much for reaching out, but you know what I do want to ask one question, and this is one question that I thought that this is the only time I can really ask this one, because you're the first person that's come along. So you know, I saw that on LinkedIn or something you were selling your Austin Marvin. Is that correct? I?

Speaker 3: 4:54

have just sold it actually.

Speaker 1: 4:55

Oh, you've just sold it.

Speaker 3: 4:57

okay, I got the money this morning.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Oh great, that's fantastic. I'm curious. I'm curious, right. What's the difference between driving a $200,000 car compared to, say, a brand new $35,000 car? Because I hear people talk about it.

Speaker 3: 5:14

I want to hear it straight from someone who does. I talk about this all the time about boating. The great thing about boating is everyone can enjoy the water. Right, if you're on a kayak or you're on a £2 million motor yacht and I guess the same is for driving in reality right, but the Aston Martin is a car that you jump in and you cannot be distracted to. If you're used to driving and texting, or driving and Googling, or driving and singing. When you drive one of those things, you're attached to the steering wheel Because if you lose concentration for a while, it will lead to bad results.

Speaker 1: 5:50

I reckon, I reckon. I reckon and did I see something that you were testing out, a Ferrari or something like that.

Speaker 3: 5:58

Yes, yes, I've got the new four-wheel drive Ferrari on.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Oh serious, oh nice, nice, that must be comfortable.

Speaker 3: 6:09

Yeah, more comfortable than the camper vans I used to drive around. I reckon, I reckon.

Speaker 1: 6:16

And we will say that, jamie, before we got on, he was sharing with us that when he used to live in Australia he actually used to build camper vans for a little while there. So, um, you know, I can definitely that's a big jump up from a camper van or an old school bus to um the brand new, uh, four-wheel drive ferrari. That's yeah, it is social mobility and in real action yeah, totally, totally.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Oh, there you go. You've answered that really well, but I tell you what it would probably be really great to hear a little bit about yourself. You know the work that you've done and the work you're actually working towards as well We'd love to hear about it Brilliant.

Speaker 3: 6:57

Yeah, well, thank you. So I was born here in London, in East London, I'd like to say. I was born with dyslexia, adhd, colour blind and poor, so I really had to work quite hard to make a success of life. I was very, very fortunate. Age five my mother I lived with my mum and dad in a two bedroom flat above a shop in East London and my father was abusive but my mum was hugely supportive a big fan of mine as I was of hers was abusive but my mum was hugely supportive, a big fan of mine as I was of hers and age five.

Speaker 3: 7:28

We were at a local fate you know affair and there were some displays going on there and there was a motorcycle club and this motorcycle club was set up solely to help disadvantaged children from inner London city estates which I was one of. Age five. I made an application to join that team and for the next 11 years I spent every weekend and every school holiday away from home, which was just life changing for me because, well one, it got me away from the violence and stuff at home and in East London, but also gave me a real view that there was more to life because we would jump on a bus every week and go traveling up and down the country to put on displays, and the motorcycle team was a military-led motorcycle display team. So I had a lot of discipline around it and taught me a lot of great leadership skills. But um age 11 that team nearly went bankrupt and we have a large charity here in the UK called the Prince's Trust, which has now just been renamed as the King's Trust, and the Prince's Trust gave a donation and helped us out.

Speaker 3: 8:28

So age 12, I was fortunate to get invited to the palace to thank the Prince of Wales and say thank you for that help, and it enabled the imps to continue. But fast forward from that age 16, I left school without any qualifications. My dyslexia was just a bit too severe to get me through any single form of education and I went on to starting my own businesses and I started in window cleaning and car sales, eventually into outsourced debt recovery, and then since then I have built and sold businesses for sort of tens and tens of millions of pounds and I own 13 businesses that trade in the UK, us, australia, new Zealand and a small, small part of Europe today.

Speaker 1: 9:13

And then I should just end that story.

Speaker 3: 9:15

On that, I was very fortunate that five years ago the Prince of Wales invited me back to become chair of the Prince's Trust and set up a new department within the trust of the Enterprise Network, and I've just stepped down from my chair role there, and last year I was fortunate enough to receive a Lifetime Achievement Award on behalf of the King at the Business Champion Award.

Speaker 1: 9:39

So a real full circle of how my view that social mobility can can help anyone I bet you back in those days when, um, you were struggling in school and all that you, you would never have thought you would actually get to that point. Am I correct?

Speaker 3: 9:57

yeah, no, absolutely. I mean I always I was always fairly self-confident. I always knew that I wouldn't be poor, you know, because growing up poor was tough. So I always knew I didn't want that and I always knew I would find ways not not to be that. But, to be completely honest, I didn't know if that was going to be crime or business. You know it was. I definitely wasn't going to be poor, but I didn't know how I was going to do it coming from east london, that's the uh cray twins area, correct?

Speaker 1: 10:21

yeah?

Speaker 3: 10:22

so green. It's right, that's exactly where they were from very, very and like back in the day.

Speaker 1: 10:27

That was very rough yeah, really rough.

Speaker 3: 10:30

Or you know, say to people in Bethnal Green you weren't worried about being bullied and being beaten up, you about being bullied and having your face sliced, because that was a thing in Bethnal Green. They didn't stab you, they wanted to cut your face because they believed that if they cut your face you would have to be reminded of it every day when you saw yourself in the mirror. So it was a really rough way to grow up as a kid, trying to avoid that sort of action, you know.

Speaker 1: 10:58

Would you have sort of found that maybe having that like being brought up as, especially now in business that has not saying that you need to be like that in business, but like it's really taught you a lot about you know, resilience I'm assuming stuff like that coming from those types of areas.

Speaker 3: 11:20

Well, it's always difficult to tell, isn't it? Because I mean those with dyslexia. You know, people say well, they become resilient because of their dyslexia anyway. So it could be that I'm dyslexic. It could be because I grew up in Bethnal Green. Actually, the work that I've been doing on my recent book, the Dyslexic Edge, is more around how people are either born exploiters or explorers. Explorers make up roughly, roughly 15 percent of the population, exploiters 85 percent, and those that are explorers have this thing called dyslexia, which is a a learning difference. But if you think about an explorer, an explorer has to be resilient. So an explorer has to continuously go out and search for new things, but also continually pick themselves up when they don't achieve. So I would say that my resilience is probably just a natural uh, a natural gift of birth than than any of the other things uh, uh, you know I'm sure we're going to find many things that we all relate on throughout the course of the episode.

Speaker 2: 12:17

But, um, you know, the growing up poor, certainly I know for myself and and my mom instilled this me a lot. We had actually very similar situations growing when we were young. Um, but, uh, yeah, just that desire to sort of call your way out of the gutter, um, I've found to be very, very motivating and I I what I do wonder sometimes if that helps me get past. Well, not past, but deal with adhd and autism. You know, to um better, uh, to achieve more than a lot of my friends are growing up who are neurotypical.

Speaker 3: 12:47

You know what I mean yeah, I think, I think it's really, really interesting, right, and that's. I've just spent the last two years, uh, you know, talking to one of the most famous dyslexics on earth, so richard brunson, about his, his route to to success. And then I was fortunate that I have traveled around the world in the last 18 months interviewing other successful dyslexics, ranging from um paul orfala, who owned a company called kinko print, and from 5 000 us dollars took it to a four billion dollar company. So charles dunstan, here in the uk that did something similar with a company called Carphone Warehouse and now owns Five Guys, the big burger chain, here in the UK and across Europe.

Speaker 3: 13:30

And what you definitely see in those neurodiverse individuals is that they do have this knack to continuously drive and continuously push for more, to continuously drive and continuously push for more. And you know, it's unfortunate in some ways that the statistics that we hear most of are sort of 35% of all entrepreneurs are dyslexic. So are 40% of self-made millionaires, by the way, which is an amazing statistic, but unfortunately, the statistic that we all seem to be happy to brush over or certainly from government's point of view is that so are 50 percent of all prisoners. And the drive that I have to try and achieve over the next few years is how do you change that?

Speaker 1: 14:18

Yeah, totally, hey, sorry, just out of. And you're definitely right, and that's something you know. We're actually very passionate about that area as well, because it can be you could either go one way or the other, and I think sometimes, you know, I know a thing for me was back when I was in school. I was told that if I didn't get good marks I'd never be able to get a good career and all that. And you know, we know that that's bullshit pretty much, you know, and I think maybe some of these people who do go into crime, for example, maybe if there was some direction earlier would they have gone that way.

Speaker 1: 14:57

Who knows, you know, I just out of curiosity, with some of the you know, the quite successful entrepreneurs that you've met, you know, sometimes when I'm talking with a lot of, you know, neurodivergent business people, I always feel like we've got like this connection. Did you find that when you were speaking with, say, people like Richard Branson, like that you may not have with other people who may be neurotypical, for example? It's, that's a really great question.

Speaker 3: 15:30

You know, no one's, no one's ever asked me that, um, but as you were asking me, I I got thinking. I thought, absolutely, because it's a great leveler up, right, it brings people to a natural level. So when you meet Sir Richard Branson and some might feel sort of imposter syndrome because they're like, well, what am I going to talk about? How am I going to control this environment? How am I going to get the most from it? When you're sort of opening gambit or you're opening conversation with him is, hey, I'm also dyslexic and I have ADHD. And then all of a sudden you're, you're, you're talking about things on a completely different level.

Speaker 3: 16:03

And, yes, so my first ever time meeting uh richard was, uh, on neca with about 10 other people. We'd all, we'd been invited there as a small group and it was very apparent to me that, um, that everybody that got a bit of richard's time went straight down the same route of business success. Tell me about this, let me tell you about me, et cetera, et cetera. And I think I don't know, but I think the reason that Richard and I got on so well and maintained our relationship since is probably because I was less interested in trying to hear tips from him on how to become a billionaire, but more interested to understand his views on dyslexia and adhd and its connections to sleep, and I was. I was more curious than some others maybe were, but curious on a subject that he is, uh, very famously known for and, um, one might say, has done more for, certainly for dyslexia, than most other people yeah, the connection is so like two years doing the podcast.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Now that connection tends to be pretty immediate with everyone we speak to. Um, with the community growing and you know everyone's starting to realize, oh okay, this is okay that I'm like this and all the things we're told, particularly in school, uh, uh, not necessarily true and those systems are not built for us. And um, then you, I imagine, especially when you meet someone who's successful, um, despite all that, you know it's, it's gotta, it's gotta be it's gotta speak to the core a little bit.

Speaker 1: 17:40

Well, the thing is, what I've found is that it's opened a lot of doors for me, like I've been able to connect with some. Really, I haven't connected with Richard Branson yet, but, like you know, I have had some conversations with actually some very big, you know, dyslexic people and it probably wouldn't have happened if I just had it been like you were saying when you went to Necker Island and everyone else has just gone straight for the normal type of questions that you go for. The other questions I've approached these other people with were more on that personal level and they could relate, which I think is quite beneficial for us, especially in business as well.

Speaker 2: 18:24

That's why I love the work that we do, because we get to connect with people like that all the time. You know it's fantastic.

Speaker 3: 18:29

Exactly exactly. And when I wrote the book, I went out and interviewed these people, you know, and I was going into their homes for between four and eight hours. But there was an instant connection and there's a beautiful vulnerability that comes from those that talk about their dyslexia or their ADHD or any other neurodiverse symptom, because it takes them back immediately to their childhood. It also takes them back to one of the stages in life where they were most vulnerable. So when you start an interview or discussion on that basis, it brings that openness to to to talk and explore where the conversation might go. So, you know, I I was, I went into some people's homes and we would start off the interview with, well, where were you born? And we would finish on where they are today.

Speaker 3: 19:19

But between in that four to six hours, we we would cover in some cases, you know, people's parents deaths, some serious illness with their children, sometimes when they had been completely screwed over by competitors or by family members, and there was this real sense of I mean a safe environment here because I'm with another person like me. So there's there's there's no walls and I can be free to discuss. Another thing I should say is when I did the book. I made it clear to every single person, whether it be you're a billionaire or you're at very early stages of your success you are not going to have any editing rights for the book. I was going to come and interview you and I was going to take that content and I was going to be as true to the reader, the person acquiring the content, that I could be, and tell them what you told me in a better way.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Best way to be yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:18

And even I was surprised that everybody was willing to do that.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've actually got a question later on where we will touch base on something around that, but it would be actually great because you know we do want to hear a little bit about the work you're doing, especially with your book, uh, because you know you've just released it. You know, I think this would be a great way to sort of plug it but, like you know, share it with, because you were actually I didn't realize when you first connected with me that you actually did the book with um, a person that I've known actually for a while in the dyslexia space, dr helen taylor correct and the research that she's done is just um real.

Speaker 1: 21:02

It's cool when I first saw it and I really wanted to get her down to australia but obviously, um, we had a pandemic, we had so many things hit us, um, not quite yet, but we the goal is to get her down because the research that she's done, especially around you know, dyslexic or neurodivergent, um ce entrepreneurs, it's just unbelievable. So please share us a little bit about that experience and a little bit about the book.

Speaker 3: 21:30

We know when, when I first decided to write the book, I got back from NECA and started to reach out to some academics because I wanted to have so the whole view. The reason for writing a book really is that there's a lot of academics write books on dyslexia. The problem with that is is not many dyslexic people read them. Because what happens is I always like to say dyslexics like to read too. What happens is I always like to say dyslexics like to read too. But dyslexic people normally read solely to get the content out, not for the joy of reading. And when academics tend to write these books, they just fill it with so much content that it's not easy to get out.

Speaker 3: 22:10

And you know, we interviewed a chap called Cliff Wiseman, the owner of Speechify, which was originally set up for dyslexia. Yeah, I know, cliff. Yeah, and Cliff has a great explanation for this. Cliff says something along the lines of what's 42,612 divided by 16, now multiply that by four, now take away six. This is what it's like for a dyslexic brain reading a paragraph like this. And when you understand that. By the way, cliff was supposed to be chapter 11 for the book, but when he said that opening statement, we moved him straight to chapter one because we thought what a beautiful way to open up this content.

Speaker 3: 22:44

But anyway, going back to your question, we wanted to find an academic that understood that it was about storytelling, that it was about case study-led content, otherwise it was not going to be interesting for the dyslexic mind. And what we found with Helen, after speaking to four or five of them, is, you're right, her research is not. I think you said the word cool, which I think it is. I find it so romantic, it's so beautiful, the research she's doing around this.

Speaker 1: 23:13

And the way she puts it is cool. The way she explains it is just like yes yes, I went to meet her.

Speaker 3: 23:22

I went to meet her and had coffee and in an hour and a half I just sat there with my mouth wide open and just thought, wow, this is brilliant. This is exactly what we wanted, um. So we started work straight away. We started work that afternoon because she was mid-research on other stuff, so we had to try and slot in a lot of uh, you know, little bits of free time to get this book done.

Speaker 3: 23:45

But we worked together for over 12 months on the book, um, and I'm continuing to support her activities now to ensure that, um, she can take some of this research and put it into real, uh, some real studies to see if we can see, if we can prove out some of these proof points even more. But she was just wonderful to work with and what helen does is she opens up the book, but also what she every person we feature in the books is 14 chapters, each of them a different successful dyslexic person. At the end of their chapter, she gives you her insights to what's typical about their life story with those with with dyslexia, and it's it's really great. It's a great to have that valuable content throughout, you know, run itself right through the book yeah, no, that's cool, that's it's.

Speaker 1: 24:34

I've often wondered how you do books when you're co-writing with someone. And yeah, that sounds like it works really well there, um it also keeps you honest, right.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Well, because it's easy for someone to write about dyslexia and just tell you you know their experience exactly and that's not terrible. But it's not always useful if the reader isn't able to come to their own conclusion. And I wanted to be aware that we might have a reader that's 12 or 13 years of age. You know, it's really easy to get 75 year old white guys that are dyslexic and successful tell you how dyslexia didn't do them any harm. Look at me, it's not difficult to get a 17-year-old black girl, a 21-year-old Asian girl, et cetera, et cetera. And what we did in this book is we wanted diversity across age, sex, race to really see. Well, is it any different? So we interviewed a guy called the Black Farmer, who was a brilliant brand different, you know. So we we interviewed a guy called the black farmer. It was brilliant brand.

Speaker 3: 25:36

Um and wilfred emigrated from jamaica to london age five. Seven brothers lived in a two-bedroom flat in the midlands, um and was severely poor. Now his version of growing up with dyslexia is very different than, say, kelly hoppin, who's the famous interior designer for the beckhams, and various other people that we interviewed who grew up in chelsea and mommy and daddy were wealthy and etc. Etc. It doesn't take away the impact of dyslexia and that's true throughout but it it does have a difference in how well they come out, and it also has a difference in do they go down to the 50 odd percent that become prisoners or 35% that become entrepreneurs?

Speaker 1: 26:17

Yeah, no, that's interesting. That actually works well into our next question, I think how did your neurodivergence impact your journey to where you are now? And I think the thing is, it's really interesting when we're just talking about what you were talking about there. But you know, sometimes I find that when I'm speaking, especially with other neurodivergent people, we get what we're talking about Like I know, for example, I could talk about our business, for example, with people who aren't neurodivergent and they'll just be straight over their head or think, oh yeah, that's really nice, you're helping. But then I can speak to neurodivergent people and they'll be like, oh my God yes, you know what I mean. Did you find, especially for you developing and growing your career to what it is now, did you come across a lot of those problems because of your neurodivergence? And you're like, oh my God, why can't you just get this type of thing, if that makes sense?

Speaker 3: 27:24

Yeah, absolutely so. All of my businesses my first two businesses, sort of window cleaning and car sales were simply just needing to be self-employed because I didn't have an education. But all of my significant businesses that I've built and sold and trade globally, et cetera, have all been for reasons of injustice. And that's a typical thing. That goes with dyslexia is that, you know, we have a sense of, we hate injustice and we have a sense to try and resolve it, and so all of my businesses, and I think all of my businesses in the future, will be where I believe injustice is being served upon people where it shouldn't, and that gives me a very strong purpose and a very strong drive to fix it. So I'm fortunate and I thank my dyslexia for that. And then, obviously, my ADHD means that you know, simply, I've got the energy and determination to do it.

Speaker 2: 28:23

When you feel it's not an option Until you don't, yeah until you don't.

Speaker 3: 28:27

Until you don't yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:29

No, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 28:30

It should say you know, there's also project. Yeah, there's times when I just dump things and go enough's enough, I'm done with this um. So you know, I do like to keep on saying there's a lot of people in today's world I find that either talk about dyslexia as a um, as a deficit, as a you know a disability, or a superpower, and I don't particularly, I don't typically want to buy into either of those kinds because I believe that I believe it's a mixture of the two.

Speaker 3: 28:58

Yes, it has some great traits associated with it, but it's certainly an achilles heel. You know, um, somebody asked me just last week what's a recent event where your dyslexia has sort of been an achilles heel for you? And they asked me just the day after uh, I don't uh, as we discussed earlier on, because of the type of car I drive, I don't use the train often.

Speaker 3: 29:18

Yeah, I wouldn't if I had a ferrari or an austin barbara, but I I did attempt to use the trainer last week to to come home, um, and I was in town. I I was on the phone to my wife and I jumped on the train and about 40 minutes later I thought, bloody hell, this is taking a while and I realised I'd gone on the complete wrong train, complete wrong direction. I was then back on the phone to my wife going do you mind driving an hour across to Pippin?

Speaker 1: 29:50

But that is so easy to do for us.

Speaker 3: 29:53

Exactly, it's so easy to do for us, exactly, it's so easy to do for us, and so I don't like it when people just go oh well, dyslexia is a superpower. I just don't If that narrative is where we end up. It's simply saying to society to keep on treating dyslexia and ADHD the way you have done for the past 100 years, and I just don't believe that that's a message that responsible people like us should be given out.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Yeah, the correct the correct statement is just dyslexia and other forms of neurodivergence mean that you have some strengths which can be very advantageous. That's uh exactly. It comes with its challenges. You know, my favorite, my favorite strong man uh, I love strong man is Tom Stoltman and he's three times world's strongest man. Now he does go on a bit about his autism being a superpower and I'm like could you just tweak?

Speaker 3: 30:40

the message a little bit. Yeah, it's quite typical these days. Actually, I hear it a lot. I hear it every day because I'm in that circle and you do need to be careful, because you don't want to say you know, yeah, I'm like you, fatima Johnson, you're sort of like you're. Can you tweak it down a little bit? You don't want to say don't do it, because in some ways it adds some use, but only because it's positive. Right, but if you speak to so, I received a letter on Friday, handwritten to my home, from a chap that I met while writing a book Harry, age 12. Now, when Harry came and sat in my garden and spoke to me for three hours about his dyslexia and dealing with school, at the moment, there is nothing you can do to convince Harry that it's simply a superpower. Right now he's right in the thick of it and it's really not useful for people just to walk around and go, don't worry, it's a superpower.

Speaker 3: 31:33

now he's right in the thick of it and it's really not useful for people just to walk around going, don't worry, it's a superpower yeah he's having a real rough time of it and he wrote to me on friday to say, just by simply sitting with me for a couple of hours in the summer, um, doing the the interview, and this is a summer last year he said that you know his school grades have improved, he's built this level of confidence, he's got a better understanding, and that, you know, is just amazing. But, as I said, you don't get that by simply going bang, tapping them on the back and saying you'll be okay, mate, it's a superpower.

Speaker 1: 32:07

See, like this is the thing I usually say. With that I'm like, yes, I have some great strengths, but man, the crap I've had to go through to get to this point. It's been difficult. And you know, even you know I'm sure we're all the same right, like when we still struggle with it. Now, it's not like it goes away. We may look as if we can do all these great things, but we still struggle with it every day, like if it's having to read loads of stuff. Or someone sends me an email and I'm like, yeah, what the hell does this email mean?

Speaker 3: 32:45

how many long emails are still in your email box because you don't want to get around to them, because you open them up and you're petrified? Right, you're like I'll deal with that one later yeah yeah, but I work with. If you put it in two paragraphs, I'll deal with it. You put it in 10. I'm gonna put it off forever totally sorry, just just simple.

Speaker 3: 33:04

As simple as that's how I sort of like and actually well, just last night I was brought into bed last night and I really I'm. It's very I don't I'm. I love spending time with my children. I don't particularly like the bedtime reading stuff because I don't find reading that easy. And they're seven and eight. My seven-year-old I can still read to because the books are a reasonable level where it's just a common story. But my eight-year-old is really, you know, choosing quite complex books and some of these children's writers now don't make it easy. But anyway, I said to my eight-year-old we'd had a lovely afternoon. I said, amelie, can I reach you tonight? And she just looked at me and put her head to one side. I was like, do you have to? And I was like, no, but I would like to. And she was like but it's a really complex book and I think mummy will get it better.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Crazy. How did that make you feel?

Speaker 3: 33:57

I laughed with her, but you know. I'm trying to embrace my dyslexia with her. I walked off and I thought that's a bit crap. Actually, I actually just wanted to lie in bed with her for 10 minutes. She is right, though she's right that every seventh word or something, I have a little stumble and you know it ruins it for her. It's like can you imagine starting the next James Bond movie and every tenth word against Michael? I mean it would be pretty annoying.

Speaker 1: 34:27

That's an interesting way of looking at it, actually. But I'll tell you what you know. You've said a little bit about education and all that, and I've seen you talk a little bit about education, you know, in the UK and the thing is, what I've noticed with a lot of the problems, say, in the UK, they're not just the UK thing, it is an Australian thing, an American thing, an all-over-the-world type of thing. And I think you know especially for us as well, like we're really trying to look at higher education as well. So what do you think the issues were with school and higher education that were unhelpful for your dyslexia?

Speaker 3: 35:08

So you're right in saying and certainly from the research we've been doing over the last 18 months nothing's changed much from a global level or through time um, it's, it's still the same. And so I think the most, the most unhelpful things that I experienced was the then the complete lack of understanding. But the belief was that I was just disruptive. So first I was thick and then, when they've realized you can't go around calling children thick, they rebranded me disruptive. And I was quite happy to play the disruptive role because it meant that I didn't have to expose my weaknesses, which I.

Speaker 3: 35:44

The thing with dyslexia you know you're dyslexic, before anybody else knows. You just become a master of disguise in it, isn't it so I think, for then the school system just simply, um, wanting to go. Well, if you're dyslexic, we're going to call you disruptive and we're going to put you in a different area of the room because we want to concentrate those that those that want to learn or those that should learn, and then I would say, fast forward a few, 10 years or something. What we're witnessing now is that they, they believe that the way they help now is to extract children from class and put them into a port-a-cabin in the car park or a smaller classroom, and all of the evidence behind that points to equally crap results. You know that made making people feel different is not the answer.

Speaker 3: 36:29

Coming into your classroom, it's embarrassing, right? So, um, harry, who I spoke about earlier, 12, would said that he would quite often just try and sneak back into his old class and then, seven or eight minutes into it, someone would come along, knock on the door and be like harry, come on. You know you're not supposed to be in this classroom. They didn't quite say it, but they're going.

Speaker 2: 36:49

You're down the corridor with thick kids and then they tend to just mash all the kids who are a bit different together, who might have completely different needs, um where's the sense in that?

Speaker 1: 37:02

yeah, I imagine that would be very confusing too, because well, I'm not like that kid and that kid's not well I remember when so we I got put into it was called special english, into it was called Special English, right, and it was. I just remember in Special English we were just the whole time we'd be throwing books across the you know, we were just out of control type of thing, and it felt like it was like just put them, get them out of the way, get them away from everyone else. And then you know it just didn't help and you know it was different. Sorry, did you? When did you find out you were dyslexic? Did you know that in school?

Speaker 3: 37:43

by the way. So I mean, I always knew I was dyslexic. I didn't get formally diagnosed until I was 36. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I like most people did everything on earth to disguise that I was dyslexic. I made my handwriting as scruffy as possible so people didn't realize I could spell badly. You know, I grew up when doctors had really scruffy handwriting. So having scruffy handwriting didn't mean you were thick. Not being able to spell did. So guess what I did? I just had scruffy handwriting, but I spent my whole life trying to disguise it through all of my businesses, through my presentations, through everything. And then, um, it was only when I met my now wife, who is dyslexic too, that I had the confidence to, I like to say, I came out you know, and it was a biggest changing moment in my life.

Speaker 3: 38:33

So I think what schools could help people with right now is getting them to that come out process a lot quicker. Because once you come out and say I have dyslexia or I have ADHD or whatever it is, you then can start to build upon that, those foundations, and build that confidence. And I think that's what I did with Harry, who we interviewed last summer, you know 12. I gave him the confidence to go into school and say I have dyslexia. But I've met all these people, I've been talking to them and I think that there's some value in it and this is how I would like to be taught. But it's a great story on how I got diagnosed.

Speaker 3: 39:08

So I sold my first business for £42 million, so I'd been reasonably successful at this stage, 36 years of age. But in the process I decided I, while I was selling the business, I didn't know what I wanted to do next and I thought I want to do an MBA. I don't know why I wanted to do an MBA. I don't even have a GCSE and obviously an MBA is a post-grad, not a pre-GCSE degree. But I wanted to do an MBA at one of the best business schools in the world.

Speaker 3: 39:35

So I applied to Stanford, Berkeley, harvard and LBS and they all said no other than LBS. And my pitch to them was wouldn't it be great case study for you to take someone with zero education for an MBA program? And you should do this with me based upon my past business knowledge and I sent in loads of press articles about me and stuff like that and I went along to LBS and I did a presentation to their admission committee and at the end of that they said to me do you think you might have dyslexia? Now I knew I had dyslexia and when they said it I started to sweat and I thought, shit, you know they found me out. But I said no. And they said well, would you be happy to sit a test?

Speaker 1: 40:18

and I said yes, what are you?

Speaker 3: 40:19

gonna say no. Yes, I said yes and then I I got sent this portal to do this test and and I really tried to pass it as a non-dyslexic because I just I wanted to.

Speaker 1: 40:29

I wanted to lie again, I wanted to get well, kev, you tried to be like that with your autism stuff, didn't you?

Speaker 2: 40:35

Yeah, I failed my first autism test because I was masking while I was answering, just because out of habit. Out of habit, I succeeded in convincing them that I didn't have it until later. The test got a lot more in-depth um, we identified it pretty readily at that point that's interesting actually.

Speaker 3: 40:57

And, um, I'll tell you a story about my adhd one too. So, um, so, anyway, it came back that I have had dyslexia and I thought, oh damn. And then lbs said, but we would love to accept you anyway. Um, so that was great. It was, you know, a real moment for lbs. Hats off to them. The reality is, after three months I found it far too difficult and had to leave anyway, and and lucky I did I set up another business, sorry can I?

Speaker 1: 41:19

for tens of millions can I jump in on that part there for a sec? What did you find difficult about it? And also, too, do you think there could have been different ways that could have made it better for you?

Speaker 3: 41:34

that's an interesting question and I'm not too sure I remember it that well to, because I think, because when I was completing it I was simply trying to fool the system. I wasn't doing it thinking well, what, how could have it be done better? Um, but that's interesting, I tell you. I tell you one that I did much more recently that I cannot answer that it's my ADHD test, and my ADHD test I was really really trying to. I was like working hard, I was exhausted, trying to make sure that I could fool the ADHD test.

Speaker 3: 42:07

Oh really yeah yeah Well, I didn't believe that these ADHD tests.

Speaker 1: 42:11

Is your mindset different. But now Are you like, actually like, oh my God, I actually like being ADHD now, yeah, yeah, of course, of course, but actually I really wanted to try and just see if I could.

Speaker 3: 42:24

It was just a test, it was a challenge why not?

Speaker 1: 42:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 42:28

Typical thing and actually what happened is I was trying so hard and for any of your listeners or viewers that have that have done it, the test takes so long. But if you make an error on the test, like and I can't remember what the error is, but it's like if you, we, don't do something in a certain amount of time, we do it too quickly, too often the test restarts from the beginning and this test is only supposed to take. I think it's like 30 minutes or 40 minutes, which is a long time for someone with adhd to sit down with this particular task. And the first time I got to like eight minutes to finish and it went restart and I was like damn, sat there again, got within seven minutes to finish, restart and eventually I turned to the assessor. I was like you have got to be kidding me. I cannot do this again. It's like he's obviously said again, you've got ADHD.

Speaker 1: 43:26

We don't even need you to complete this test again. That's the test.

Speaker 2: 43:29

That's the test. That's the test.

Speaker 3: 43:33

I did end up getting through it, but it was painful. Honestly, when I left the room, I was exhausted.

Speaker 2: 43:40

Can I ask a related question on that note? As a business person Will and I both are how do you tend to manage task paralysis? Do you get a lot of that or that's not really one of your symptoms?

Speaker 3: 43:52

No, it is, and I'm really I mean, I'm very fortunate now, right, that I employ, you know, nearly over a thousand people. So I, I, what's required of me is is is much less. But, yeah, I struggle, I struggle. You know, I'm a big to-do list person. My to-do list is never done. I always choose the easier things first rather than the more difficult things.

Speaker 3: 44:19

As we said earlier on long emails, I mean, I can simply I leave long emails in the hope that they just go away, that it wasn't important enough that the person just gives up, that it wasn't important enough that the person just gives up, um and it's and it's, it's a real, it's a real challenge, right, um? But then I employ great people around me to do most of myself. Almost all of my tasks now require a verbal yes, no, what do you think, etc. Etc. And that is perfect for the way I am wired and the way I way I work. So once, so once I'm off the call to you guys today, I'll have two or three verbal calls during a day, which will be, you know, hard decisions. Actually, I had one this morning, and people that work for me now know to get these things down to very concise. What do you think? But yeah, no, I mean I wish it wasn't.

Speaker 3: 45:11

It's really tough, it's, it's quite, it's it's quite draining and that's the ill part of this right, and that's why I don't again going back to it's just as you know. Yeah, I've made loads of money, yeah, I've got a good life and all of that's lovely, but I'm also bloody exhausted through not being able to keep up with this roller coaster that I've created myself because of all of the decisions that are required and the information in load that I'm required to take every day.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Can I ask, right, like some people might think, oh success, you know it's easier, but do you find that it's actually more difficult the more successful you get, because there's so much more?

Speaker 3: 45:53

well, not more is expected of me, right? So, um, we spoke earlier on where, you know, I had to go and receive a lifetime achievement award on behalf of our king last year. Um, and I've never really felt imposter syndrome until that day when I googled it about 10 times because I was. I was during the day in my, my speech, which is pretty tough for someone with dyslexia. Anyway, right, it's much easier to ad lib and just get on with it.

Speaker 3: 46:21

But you know, this one I had to get right, um, and I, you know, I can only describe it as, uh, you, it felt almost panic, attack-like during the day rehearsing that. It was just so draining on the importance of it and how am I going to get it right? And then, I should add, just a few months later, our Queen passed and we had an event for that and I was asked, I was given the privilege of doing a talk on behalf of the King for that as well, which was, you know again, really really challenging. Really challenging Because it's not, you know, I'm confident now, but I didn't at either of those two events, and maybe I should have. But I'm confident now to open the conversation with. You know, I'm dyslexic, adhd, colourblind and was born poor, and I think that's why I'm so passionate about people being given the opportunity to come out, because when you stop hiding behind neurodiversity, then you can start building upon those foundations. Yeah, totally agree.

Speaker 1: 47:30

It's like it becomes easy. Not that it becomes easier, but for one, for me, because it was interesting. When I was in school, I thought I was the only dyslexic person out there, you know. But since I've opened up about being a virgin and all of that, so many people I went to school with are like oh yeah, man, I'm this and I'm like man. I never knew that.

Speaker 3: 47:58

You know, and it sort of helped a little bit. Yeah, and I think I mean, you're right, 15% of the general population are dyslexic, right? So you know, every classroom in the country will have at least a couple, so don't I? I think, once we communicate that and the playground will have, you know, up to a couple of hundred. Once we start communicating that, the sooner the better yeah, totally, totally.

Speaker 1: 48:24

So, just moving on from that, there's good data on the prevalence of neurodivergence in entrepreneurship. Good data on the prevalence of neurodivergence in entrepreneurship. What do you think? Sorry? Why do you think so many of us find it attractive? I did all right for a dyslexic person reading some of those big words there right, there's a lot of them I was thinking what the hell?

Speaker 2: 48:45

Sorry, the autistic person wrote the questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should have.

Speaker 1: 48:50

Shit man wrote the questions.

Speaker 3: 48:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, shit man but honestly, we could see how hard you were working there too, totally man totally that's what people forget.

Speaker 3: 49:01

It's really bloody challenging, um. So, look, I mean, I you know. Going back to dr helen taylor's research on this, uh, I'm yet to be convinced that it's dyslexic people that make great entrepreneurs. I think, more like Dr Helen Taylor's research is that you are either born an explorer or an exploiter. If you think back to when reading and writing wasn't invented and not relevant at all, to be an explorer would have been something you were celebrated for, the, the ones that left camp to find food, to find new territories, etc. But there needed to be the majority of the people to then exploit what was found. And, and I think it's the explorers that make great entrepreneurs. It's the explorers. No need to hunt anymore. The explorers no need to go out and find new territories in in the most anymore. So it's them that have diverted their passion towards entrepreneurship, creativity, invent.

Speaker 3: 49:57

You think some of the most famous inventions on earth are, are through, explorers, or or you know that happen to be dyslexic. One thing we should remember about dyslexia is you know it's dyslexia is a learning difficulty with, with, with writing and reading in in the main. Um, but these innovations, this, this technology of reading, writing, was invented by us. It was invented by us humans. Um. So it's really unusual for us to to have a disability against something we invented to ourselves and, in the main, reading and writing or learning as we see it today was, was came about from, from the church. And the church were just fearful of knowledge drain when people live to age 30. They didn't want the story of the bible to be forgotten within a few generations, so they came up with this way to try and make us, make us read and retain that information.

Speaker 3: 50:53

Well, for an explorer who happens to be dyslexic, reading and retaining what they might perceive to be useless information is never going to well. I mean, the human brain is designed purposely to take to have a brain dump every now and again of useless information to make room for new information. Well, if you say to an explorative person with dyslexia, try and retain all this information about this guy from 4 000 years ago, etc. Etc. They're like no, no, I want to be what. What's tomorrow? What's going on next week?

Speaker 2: 51:28

well, tell me about space.

Speaker 3: 51:29

Tell me about space. Tell me about you know how we're gonna? How we're gonna solve the crisis, the, the energy crisis and stuff like that. So I think it's explorers make great entrepreneurs, and explorers happen to have a different way of thinking and a different way of learning them. What we created as society and we thought it would be fit for all.

Speaker 1: 51:52

Yeah, no, no, well said, well said. You know, I think as well, especially with neurodiversity. We'll use it as a whole here. Now you hear a lot of people saying oh, you know you're going to go into, you know you're probably going to do really well if you go into business, and all of that, and it's like, well, hang on, not everyone wants to go into business and also, too, maybe some people may not be good at business. You know what I mean, especially around neurodivergent people. And I think the biggest thing when we were sort of looking at questions around this is what are some strengths you think employers need to understand that we can bring to the table? So in the working environment, because you know, I'm still seeing people not utilising these great strengths that we could actually bring to these workplaces- yeah, it's a real passion of mine, actually.

Speaker 3: 52:48

So one thing I should say before I answer the question is I would implore everybody that has got a LinkedIn profile to go on and add dyslexic thinking as a skill. That was a real brainchild of Sir Richard Branson a few years ago and through a lot of effort he got Microsoft LinkedIn to make that skill available. So that will go to show people that I am a dyslexic thinker and we can start to then demonstrate that it does have value associated with it for employers. Another thing that I do, and I ask other people to do, especially if you work for larger organizations, is to get anyone within your organization that is dyslexic to add it to their email signature. So I have on my email signature um, expect small typos, but big ideas that's cool, that's cool.

Speaker 3: 53:39

I like that um, and because I want, I just want it to be. I don't want people I'm bored of me putting on a social post and someone corrected me on how it should have been written, or correcting the spellings on my email. Again, we go back to. Dyslexics like to read too, but they want the content from it rather than the enjoyment of reading. If you can understand what I was trying to say, just accept it right, get on with it totally totally.

Speaker 1: 54:03

Why would they?

Speaker 2: 54:03

surround I am. I am a. I have to admit I'm a reformed grammar Nazi, because back in the day when social media was young and stuff. But then as I learned more about dyslexia, specifically through Will, I just stopped doing it. There's no benefit to anyone.

Speaker 3: 54:22

No, and it hurts people's feelings actually. I mean, you know, I'm sure we've all done it, but it does. It hurts people's feelings. For me it's about getting what I would love to see and, through the efforts of some of the work Dr Helen Taylor and I are doing and the book, is to get employers start for the first time ever to actively recruit for dyslexic thinkers. I think that will be the biggest changer when they can see so.

Speaker 3: 54:48

These are the skills associated with dyslexic thinkers. You know the big thinking, the problem solving, the, the gut feel on reactions, the creativity and the and the seven or eight other um key ones. I would like them to start to go. We believe that diversity is what makes a great leadership team. That doesn doesn't just mean sex, race and age, it means the way they think also, and that would then bring those with ADHD and dyslexia into the boardrooms, into senior management teams, into creative environments, into non-creative environments, project management teams. But I would like to see a real push for purposefully going to recruit dyslexic thinkers, real push for purposefully going to recruit dyslexic thinkers.

Speaker 1: 55:42

Yeah, it's see, I sort of work in that area and I think a big thing I'm seeing is the people are still just not understanding the whole concept behind it. So, for example, I was in a meeting the other week and we're like, oh, you know, if we had dyslexic people come in, um, you know you'd need this. And they're like, oh, we could never have dyslexic people here. And I'm thinking in my head you've probably already got 15 percent. You know what I mean? They're probably. And do you know what? Like in this place that I'm doing some stuff? Um, I see people come up to me and they because I'm the neurodiversity consultant there, you know people are coming up to me asking me questions and I'm like they're like, oh man, I don't know who else to ask. And I'm like, yeah, okay, this and that they're too afraid to tell their employers.

Speaker 3: 56:29

So yeah, that's the hard part. I mean that's a fear, right, I mean that's a real fear. As I said, I knew I was dyslexic my whole life. I just made every effort on earth to try and disguise it. If you've got people in your organisation like that, then that's a real shame. That is a real shame.

Speaker 2: 56:47

And it depends on how they action that information, even if you do tell them. You know, later in my employment history, before I started working for myself, I was starting to tell employers that I was autistic. I didn't know I was ADHD yet at that point but they were like, okay, cool, thank you for telling us. You know, we're a very inclusive environment here because I work in, you know, the digital space, so they all want to be Silicon Valley. But then I slowly came to realise, as I continued to job hop, that that didn't mean that they were making any adjustments whatsoever.

Speaker 2: 57:22

And sometimes they just didn't know what adjustments to make, and I didn't know what to tell them, of course, so yeah, and so there's a fear there, even if you're comfortable saying it that it won't actually change anything. Yeah, it is, um, of course. So, yeah, yeah, and so there's a fear there, even if you're comfortable saying it, that it won't actually change anything yeah, it is, it's it's.

Speaker 1: 57:36

There is a long way to go, but I think we're a hell of a lot closer than what we were saying. Like I remember when I first you know, when I first got into neurodiversity here in australia, there was no one talking about it. I was going to like diversity, inclusion events and I would be talking about neurodiversity and people were like looking at me like weird, go back, you know, fast forward to where we are. Now those same people are now coming to me going, hey, will, you were right, you know what I mean. And it's sort of like so the way I see it is, it's growing. It's probably not growing as fast as I would like it to grow, but we've got to start somewhere.

Speaker 3: 58:22

Exactly, I agree, but there is definitely a change. There is definitely a change Totally, and you guys are part of that that change, I am part of that change, and every single person that's logged on and watching this now is part of that change.

Speaker 1: 58:39

So this is a brilliant thing and I think this actually goes in well to the next question why is it important for neurodivergent leaders in particular to be open about both their struggles and their strengths? Now, a big thing. We actually spoke about this in our last podcast. There's some really big entrepreneurs here in Australia who have multi-billion dollar tech companies, and I know, I know for a fact that they are dyslexic, but they don't want to talk about it out of you know, this fear type of thing. You know where. You know it's it's. Those people are so key to growing this to where it can be. You know, what are your thoughts on this?

Speaker 3: 59:23

I think it's vastly important and it doesn't just need to be the Richard Branson, the Keira Knight, these and those big public figures who are doing a brilliant job at it, by the way.

Speaker 1: 59:34

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3: 59:36

But I just did a podcast for SAP. You know the big.

Speaker 1: 59:40

The tech company yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:42

And you know you've got, I think, 40,000 employees across the world and I was like, well, have you ever sat down with the exec board to see if any of them are dyslexic? And do you know the power of one of them changing their email signature to say dyslexic? Think I expect small typos, but big ideas would have filtering throughout the entire organization. So these changes don't need to be huge. We're not asking everybody to show all of their vulnerabilities, of what they've been through, like they have in my book, but they could simply upgrade their linkedin profile, um or or update their, their email signature. But I think it's really. I think it's really important and hands off to those that have driven that.

Speaker 3: 1:00:24

You know I'm jump, I'm on this. I get on this train a bit later than, say, richard branson, who's been now doing this for four or five years. But once people know that successful people so people can be successful and neurodivergent also then they're more likely to. I'm a strong believer. I know I keep on saying this, but the sooner we get people to come out and I like using that term, but the sooner we get people to come out and I like using that term. But the sooner we get people to come out, the better their life will be Totally.

Speaker 1: 1:00:54

We can do that simply by communicating. Yep, yep, I totally agree. And this is it, I think. And is the saying it takes a tribe to build a village. Is that the saying?

Speaker 3: 1:01:11

A village to raise a child or something like that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:15

We get what we're talking about right, but it does, and that is the very successful people and the people still struggling and everyone in between there. I think that plays such a huge role. And you know, when people you know I am talking about, um, some of the people we're sort of really in trying to encourage to come forward, but they haven't, you know, they're worried about being seen as the poster child and stuff like that, and it's like you're, you don't need to be that and you said it before. It could be some small things, like maybe your company is doing something that helps this, or these little things make a huge difference.

Speaker 2: 1:01:54

You don't need to be the poster child of dyslexia, for example, and I do think you know, given that we're we're involved in trying to help educators, um you know, better support students and whatnot, um the the that I think you would find a pretty common thread throughout that with regards to what their school experience was like, and I think that that would bring some attention to what really needs to start to change to help these poor kids who are just not. They're trying to mash them through this cookie-cutter system that just does not serve them at all and teaches them that they're less than cookie cutter system.

Speaker 3: 1:02:31

that just does not serve them at all and teaches them that they're less than you know. Well, actually, on that subject, you know I get invited to do quite a lot of speeches and talks and various like that, and I don't do many, but I've been invited back to my school a couple of times, which I have done, but always based upon look at the successful entrepreneur. And actually if you look at all of the speakers at my children's schools, they're sort of look at this gold medalist, look at this, look at that. Actually, what I would like to see and maybe it's something in the work that you guys are doing with the education system is them to purposely start looking for those neurodivergent people to come back and tell their stories. They don't have to have gone on to be an olympic gold medal, they just had to have gone on to have had a life that wasn't so utterly affected by their dyslexia or their adhd or whatever else they may have, because that is that shows real success to these younger people.

Speaker 3: 1:03:28

So I would like to see and I said this earlier on and we made sure we achieved it in the book which is, we didn't just want a bunch of 75 year old white millionaires tell you that dyslexia will be okay. So we've got people that are just at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. You know there's a girl called chef philly who just won master chef here in the uk. Um, you know she's right at the beginning of her journey, but she talks about she knew she was dyslexic. She kept on going home to her Indian family saying I think I'm dyslexic Now. The Indian community plays such a high value on education that they just kept telling her to stop being silly.

Speaker 1: 1:04:05

Yeah, it's almost frowned upon over there.

Speaker 3: 1:04:08

Exactly so. I want to see more people like chef philly be given the stage to tell people about her dyslexia, because actually getting me might be just like getting kelly hoppin, or getting sir charles dunstan might just be getting like richard branson. We all play a part, but let's not take away the value that you will get from everyday people telling their stories too do you know what right I?

Speaker 1: 1:04:33

I actually went to approach my old school to because I failed school and I said, look, I've done all this.

Speaker 1: 1:04:40

You know, they didn't want a bar of it, they didn't want me, yeah, they are you know, and I think as well, because I I approached them, I said look, I want to go in there and I want to say you know, if you don't do well in school and that's a big thing, what we're trying to do with neurodiversity academy If you haven't done well in school, that's not the end of it. There's so many pathways you can take, but they didn't want to borrow that because, you know, I went to a private school. Private schools are big business and it's all about grades and marks and all that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

So if you've got someone, going it yeah, if you've got someone going in there going hey, it's all right if you don't get the best mark do you?

Speaker 1: 1:05:20

know, what I mean um, but it's true, like the thing is like, I went through years of drug and alcohol abuse because I just I could have just quit, you know, and given up altogether. But you know I was able to, you know, get through that. But that was 10 years of my life that I could have been on the right track. You know when are the people helping these people. But hey, jamie, we're getting to the end here now.

Speaker 3: 1:05:50

Thank you so much. Just on that, sorry, because I think it's a real important one that I wouldn't like you just to go without me giving you my thoughts on that. The links between drug and alcohol abuse and dyslexia and ADHD more, are real. They are real. And the links between sleep disorders and the two are real too, and a lot of people just start drinking to enable their mind to calm down, to sleep, and it gets worse and worse. Uh, I have suffered with that too and most of the other dyslexics that I've. That I've spoken to.

Speaker 1: 1:06:26

I was the same. I was the same sleep, sleeping was typical yes and again.

Speaker 3: 1:06:33

So that's why I hate to keep banging on about this, but if you do hear just someone constantly going around saying it's a superpower, give them a little tug of the arm and tell them just to be a bit careful, because it really does. It is an Achilles heel too, and we just don't want the world to go well. If it's a superpower, let's just continue.

Speaker 1: 1:06:54

Can I say on that superpower thing, I have done that before. And then, man, there's almost a whole gang of superpower Like people will come and attack you, like seriously, like social media will attack you If you're like nah, it's not a superpower. I've been like, I have had things like oh my God, it's just like oh my God, and I'm really standing.

Speaker 3: 1:07:21

I'm pushing against the tide on this a little bit at the moment because a lot of the sexist community here in the UK are very much in the superpower camp and I'm, but you know, I think we owe it to us in this environment. The three of us and all of your viewers are here for a reason. We owe it to ourselves and each other to try and not make this as difficult as it was for us for the next generation, and to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:07:45

You cannot rebrand it as being a superpower totally totally sorry, uh, photon john, did you have something you wanted to say?

Speaker 2: 1:07:52

no, no, I was just gonna say we're not here to fluff things up, you know. We're here to have conversations and normalize those conversations and just talk.

Speaker 1: 1:07:59

Uh, reality, you know we're not gonna bullshit, you know in simple terms you know what I mean. But hey, jamie, thank you so much for coming on. It's been um so interesting and, yeah, it's been really cool. So you know, if people want to connect with, say yourself, or buy your book, all of that type of stuff, where's the best place to find you, get your book, all of that type of stuff?

Speaker 3: 1:08:25

Well, brilliant, thank you. So the book's available on Amazon in all formats around the world. It's available on pre-order now. Available on amazon in all formats around the world. It's available on pre-order now. The official release dates on the 12th of september, so when you know it'll get to people asap. Um, to connect to me I only use linkedin, but you can connect with me on linkedin or go to my website, jamiewallercouk, and connect with me there. I should say that if there's anybody that's neurodivergent, that simply cannot forward a copy of the book, reach out to me and I will get you one for free, in whatever format you like to consume your media in.

Speaker 1: 1:08:57

Yeah, that's a legend, mate. Well, thank you so much there. Hey, sorry. Also, by the way, what's the book version when it's getting read back to? What's that called again, the audiobook, audiobook? Is it in an audiobook? Yeah, it's getting read back to.

Speaker 3: 1:09:12

What's that called again the audio book, Audio book. Is it in an audio book? Yeah, it's in audio. Oh awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:09:15

Yeah, cool, cool, cool. Because when I released my book all those years ago, yeah, I was sort of like, oh my God, I've wrote a book for dyslexic people, but I can't afford to get it in audio.

Speaker 3: 1:09:28

One thing I should say is an early copy here that all of the text is written in dyslexic friendly text the paragraph, the spacing. We spent a few months really trying to make this as easily easy to read as possible too, if you still do like a hard copy or or a kindle version, but yeah, audio ball all good, so the dyslexic edge correct. Correct the Dyslexic Edge.

Speaker 1: 1:09:52

So definitely check out the Dyslexic Edge. Awesome stuff there, Look, Jamie. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been a real pleasure.

Speaker 3: 1:10:00

Thank you, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:10:01

Yeah, no problem, Photon John. What about yourself? You got anything else before we close off?

Speaker 2: 1:10:06

No, just thank you again. That was an amazing conversation. I't mind uh, extending it sometime in the future. Yeah, let's do that awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:10:13

Well, thanks very much, and for all of our listeners, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. I'm your host. Will wheeler join with my main man, photon john? And this is neurodivergent mates. Till next time.